Miss Me? - Would You Fire a Horse?

Episode Date: April 16, 2026

Miquita Oliver and Jordan Stephens discuss Bieberchella, age-gap relationships and the second worst things they’ve done (thanks The Drama).This episode contains very strong language and adult themes. Credits: Producer: Natalie Jamieson Technical Producer: Oliver Geraghty Assistant Producer: Caillin McDaid Production Coordinator: Rose Wilcox Executive Producer: Dino Sofos Commissioning Producer for BBC: Jake Williams Commissioners: Dylan Haskins & Lorraine Okuefuna Miss Me? is a Persephonica production for BBC Sounds

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Dive into the bonkers world of David Mitchell and Robert Webb and listen to their BBC comedy show. From nonsensical maths quiz number wang to finding out what James Bond is really like as a party guest. There's something for everyone. Hello, MOTT AAT. Yes, that's right. This is the Ministry of Things that are apparently true.

Yes, we do exist. The rumours are true, ironically. Start listening to that Mitchell and Webb sound. the complete series one to five wherever you get your audio books the following episode contains strong language themes of an adult nature discussion of mental health issues and also questionable morality apparently welcome to miss me the podcast for everyone anyone anytime anywhere that's actually quite a good tagline i thought you hate stuff like that i don't mind a tagline i don't mind like Nike, just do it. Like, that shit is good.

Okay. Miss me for anyone, anytime, anywhere, which is appropriate, because again, Jordan is... Yeah, yeah, yeah. He takes this very literally. As the presenter, he thought we were talking to him.

You, please be anywhere in the world at any time. The Chronicles of Jordan traveling around the world continues, and the internet not working, wherever he goes, also continues. We started with a beautiful shot, sort of a pink room and sort of warm Sri Lankan light and then we moved to a sort of tree

glistening in the sunshine no internet in both places so now Jordan is in a scuzzy office I'm sorry I'm sorry I don't know what Yeah you should be If you're going to go somewhere that pretty

Could we at least get the prettiness for our show I was also I've been informed by the Eco-minded head of surf team that I can't have the AC on while we record because the door is open for lighting, so I'm now also sweating to death.

I want you to sit there and sweat and live in all your decisions. I'm sure you guys can see. It wasn't my decisions. But we can do it from the office. Wow, it's not idea. It's Shalankan New Year as well, by the way. So it's not like I haven't got a plethora of options because loads of places are shut to celebrate.

Why have you taken yourself to Sri Lanka again? Because obviously we were there for Christmas and New Year and January first few weeks. And some people would say we'd had our fill of Sri Lanka and we'd have quite enough. But no, you've gone back. I've gone back. Tell me why. Probably having like a third life crisis. Third life.

Having some kind of crisis. I don't know how else to paint it. I mean, I arrived, what, two days ago? Like this is, I have barely even adjusted. And this happened to me when I went to Thailand as well. The first few days are like quite, I have quite intense waves of grief. So it's like, I don't know. But although I am looking out onto the waves night,

now it's very calming. You confronting a lot of stuff at the moment, which I think's really good, and unfortunately, Miss me is coming with you all the way. It's not unfortunate. I like Miss Me. I love Miss Me, in fact. That is not a burden to me.

What's happening is I am much like the people who are listening to the Sri Lanka episodes, sorry, the Thailand episodes and actually the Sri Lanka ones, and just I'm really struggling to feel aligned or like a kind of synergy with life in maybe arguably the West, but specifically, obviously the UK. which is weird because I have so many great things in the UK. Obviously family, like family love dogs and like friends.

But I can't explain it really. It's really difficult to, it's actually quite troubling. No, no, no, no, no, it's not. I mean, maybe, sorry, I'm not going through it. But listen, we're all here to confront shit. You know how we banged on about the fire horse? It was like, fire horse this and the fire horse that. You're going on about it.

And then look who's riding it. What do you mean? Me? Do I think I'm riding on you? I'm freaking right. Do I think you're, are you in Sri Lanka right now? An off season. Yeah, but you best believe I'm riding it over here in London.

But Phoebe said something really good to me the other day. She was like, everyone's a bit like, God, this year's intense. Like, I just thought it was going to be firehorse, momentous energy. Phoebe said, I think everyone thought that they'd be trotting through a glen on a horse. They say, why do you think the horse is on fire? Because it's going through a battlefield. And I was like, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

So now I'm really like rolling with the punches because I'm like there's a reason I'm on fire because you need that kind of shit for this year. I think that's the energy. So the fact that you are going away to a softer, gentle place to deal with that energy makes a lot of sense. And I know you're writing your book.

You are writing the book. I'm working on another book. I mean, it's not, I haven't actually got a deal for it yet. I've not got a deal for it yet, but I'm very sure about what it's about. Yeah, that's how we've got to work. That's confronting in itself. I have interest, obviously.

I just need to define tune, I think. Can we talk about what it's about? out or not? Yeah, yes, we can. It's about touch. It's about touch. Yeah. And even since you've had this idea,

I've been thinking about touch, the way we communicate physically with each other. Like I've realised I keep starting meetings like this, arms folded, and I keep going, no, open, hands open. And it's really been making a difference. So I'm just thinking about the physicality of my body and the way I move in the world

and how much it can change your day. But the idea of the way we touch each other, what's inappropriate, what we think is appropriate when it comes to East versus West when you brought that up for me that was quite expanding for me I was like oh yeah that's actually a really

a really interesting subject I love that it's about touch John yeah it's ironically hasn't been touched on much through especially again same as my first book through a heteronormative male lens it's just as it seems to be lesser examined

and so I was going to try and push these ideas through kind of some novel You know, because I think abstraction is actually quite a good way to get through messages, but instead it appears I'm going to be delving into my own soul. Yeah, but also, don't you want to do the history of touch and shit? Oh, miss me? No, but sure. Oh, well, like factual.

No, I know you'd love that. You'd love that. There must be some great stories about kind of immoral versus moral touch. Yeah. But anyway, so yeah, but in short, I will be talking about that. It will come up. Are you the same age as Justin Bieber? No.

Yeah, you are. He's like 34 now. Is he? Or is it 31? I think he is about 31. He's younger than me. Same sort of gen. Because I feel like, can we talk about Justin Bieber at Coachella?

Because I just feel so many things about it. And I know that you had a chance to take a look before you went on your journey. Or were you traveling over a Coachella weekend? Bieber is 32. Was it last weekend? Justin Beaver's night too. Yeah. Yeah, I was traveling.

I've seen clips. I've seen some memes. Well, quite. It's taken over the world just to bea's Coachella performance. A million posts on Twitter about his performance. Is that a lot? Yes, Mickey, yeah. Yeah.

Organic posts. A million organic posts about a performance. Yes, that's a lot. Okay, now why do we think this happened? So, why didn't make me feel good? Why didn't make me feel good? Well, for instance, me Nat and Beth, while we were doing hair and makeup,

we had a Bieber party. And you can't really play Beaver without Justin Bieber. I'm not going to call him Bieber. You can't really play Justin Bieber without feeling good, I believe. And then you have to really think about the stages of Bieber's life, like through his art and his clothes and his haircuts. And what I loved about the Coachella performance is that there is this beautiful moment where he sings baby.

You probably would have to literally live under a roll. to not have seen some of this. And he seems really happy, Jordan. He seems like he's not cutting parts of his old self out to arrive where he is today. And I feel like you're doing the same. I feel like you're having to confront lots of parts of your older self to arrive as the man you are today.

So it's okay. You and Justin are very much mirroring each other's personal journeys at the moment. I rebuke that. I repeat that. Sorry. I think it's factual. I don't. I find it mildly inside. As an outsider, you find it?

Mildly insulting. So maybe even majorly. Maybe even majorly. No, but what I mean is he's a man in his early 30s who is accepting his past. That's what I'm saying. I mean, look, my, I don't know him personally from what, if I'm to believe the internet. Well, I was going to talk about the beautiful exercise in marketing that is Haley Bieber and Justin Bieber at Coachella with their own billion dollar brands coming together to crown them as the modern king of queen of America.

That would be really depressing. Also, she was a Bieber super fan. I know. But you know, Gabriette was a 1975 fan. Now she's engaged in Matty. Maybe it's the Cinderella story. Oh, yes. She seems cool that.

I met her the other day, actually. But like, I just... She is. Thank you. Yeah, but I don't know them. If there's one way to not know anything about a couple, it's, you know, again, to probably judge how they, how they're choosing to curate their lives. And their feeds.

Maybe they are great, but there was a lot of, there's a lot of stuff on the internet. It's really bizarre about it. It makes me feel uncomfortable. See, see, what I think. thought was that he had, because this is why I was going through the stages of his life, because, you know, we start with this kind of somewhat religious, not even somewhat deeply religious, sweet pop R&B kid, right? With like one time and baby.

I mean, if we just listened to baby and we had a great time. We had a really good time. He was 14, right? I think he was like 15, 14 and 15. He was too young. And too young for what? I was on telly at 50. Yeah, too young.

How did that work out? Well, it fucks a person up. Pretty good. Pretty good. What do me, you and Justin Bieber have in common? Let's work, let's work through that. So, me... Breakdowns.

Breakdowns, rebuilding, intense amounts of therapy. Something towards balance in our 30s great. There you go. And I don't think that's just us three, by the way. That might be everyone's trajectory. Not everyone. Every famous young person. I don't think I had to deal with as much as Justin Beaver.

No, neither of us did. No. This is what I mean. I think he's really been through things and I think that he's come out, not on top, but come out as a sort of centred young man. And that is pretty amazing considering Hal fame. Based off of what? This Kojala performance. Is that really it?

That's what you're judging. That's what you consider to be. I feel like he may have acted badly, Jordan, but it might been in times of distress. But there's no excuse for that. It's not an excuse, but I don't feel like they're there anymore. I feel like they've come through that. As a Bieber superfan and then like basically is dating the person

she's a super fan of. But you know what? I don't think, if we were to remove fame from the equation, by the way, I don't think that's healthy for anybody. No one should be a super fan of anybody. To obsess over someone. No one should idolize anyone.

But I don't think it's the same as, I think that there's more people up to that shit than you know. Like I'm famous. Like she was famous. She's Alec Baldwin's niece. She's a nepo baby. She's not.

I mean, yeah. She doesn't do anything. Dave, she's a really successful model. Now she's got a billion dollar business. I'm not even being shady. I didn't know that. No, she was a huge model. Okay, like what for who?

Often in editorials in like dazed, harpers, vogue. Fair, fair, fair, fair. Do you not know the history of Haley Beebe's career? Okay, she wasn't just like... Supermodel turned skincare mogul she's listed as here. I didn't realize. I wasn't aware she was a supermodel. I'm sorry.

I missed that. To be very specific, she wasn't a catwalk model like Kendall Jenner, but she was a big editorial model. Anyway, the stages of Bieber have been beautiful and also compelling and also full of the breadth of music that he started to give us around the time of like confident and then we get sorry

and then we get love yourself. These are great songs that will live with us all forever, I believe. I loved the era of Bieber, no, no, my favourite Bieber era is when he was just asking all those questions. What era is that? He just had like three songs that all had questions. It was like... Yeah, like, is it too late to say sorry?

Yeah. And then he asked, Wait, hold on. Let me find it. Oh, what do you mean? What do you mean? What do you mean? Was another question he asked. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

See, this is my kind of shit. I can play this game all day. What other questions did he ask? What's a king bed without a queen? That's in all that matters. Sorry, his latest album's called Swag 2. Yeah, bro. You best believe.

That is... You're telling me you didn't listen to it. The fuck. But there is this moment happening at Coachella with Haley Bieber, separately building her billion-dollar business in two. who were in a half years or some shit. And then Justin Bue, putting out this album last year,

I think it was the biggest week he's ever had in sales, and streams, whatever, whatever the modern world says now. And then they have a young son. And then they sort of launch this moment of King and Queendom at Coachella with her having a road pop-up and him doing the successful, I mean, it really is a lesson in marketing, whether they're happy or not.

The marketing's incredible. It worked for me. So I don't care about him and Haley at all. I just looked it up now. Everyone's like, oh, they're cute in Coachella so great. Like, I'm really, I really genuinely hope that they're in a good place. I think they have children, so that's important. Yeah, they have a son.

Right. But my favourite Bieber moments is the yummy video because it's deep and like very conspiratorial. And like, it's interesting. I also like this. Okay, now let's have a sing along. Come on. Not just singing Yamiami. And then there's another one where he's like alone or something,

where he's like looking in the mirror and he looks sad about. like being a famous person, hard relay. And then I don't know if people were expecting something more from Coachella, but obviously you know I like meta stuff. So the fact that he's just like on YouTube, that's like dope. But it would have been probably quite horrendous to witness in real, like if you went to watch it in real life. That's what I thought.

And then we did, we watched the baby bit and he stands up for a minute from this laptop and this kind of modern live streaming art eating itself at the same time as it's being performed. It's all very matter, you're right. But then he sings baby, and he just looked happy. That's cool. And it was joyful. I love that, I love him to be happy singing that song. That make that, that's, that's, look, just I, being young and famous is a recipe for disaster.

It's like probably got like an 80 to 90% disaster rate. I couldn't even think maybe what, like, the only person can think I was like, Kirsten danced. She seems right. Definitely. She was in Jamanji, bro. Like, that woman has, and she's been Mary Jane. And I've not seen one.

I have not seen her... An interview with the vampire when she was 12. I'm not seeing her collapse. I'm hoping... This is good. This is good. More child stars that haven't fucked up. Come on.

There's got to be more. No, there's very few. No, that's it. Stevie Wonder. Yes. So Stevie Wonder and Kirsten Dance. Oh shit. Thank you, Nat.

Kirsten Dunst checked into rehabilitation for depression age 25. You can't escape it. Can't escape it? Okay, wait. So that's one. Can I just say that as someone that is adjacent to this? and you and Justin.

Me and Justin. You need to stop putting me and Justin in the same box. Like, it's a very different journey. You just talked about Justin be in a mirror and said hard to relate. Yeah, to him specifically talking about fame being stressful, which is my point. I can relate to that.

That's the bit I'm talking about. Him getting back in touch with his young self is dope. I'm unsure if there are other messages outside of that that are like evocative of, I mean, or maybe I'm wrong. I don't know. Evocative of what? Growth. I don't know, man.

I literally don't know. I don't know enough. That's it. That's my final answer. I don't know. Okay, well, that's not going to work here. Sorry, sorry, no, no, no. But I understand, listen, I, but the, the, him on YouTube and shit, that's cool because it subverts shit.

Like, that's cool. It's punky. What are we going to say about me and Justin anyway? What were you going to say about me and Justin? Oh, I was just going to say maybe because I'm older. I am observing you as young men going through similar things when it comes to being, having public lives and being better on the other side. I think we can say you're both going through that. Come on.

I don't think I'm going for a Bieber level, but sure. No, sure. I'm not going to put that on you. Like, again, I don't know him. When we were first in Rizzle Kicks and there was some moments where we would like be near each other because he would be on like promo runs or whatever, he was like objectively rude to people.

Oh, no. And we'd just shout to his manager and be like, I just like. Yeah, there was a bit of an arrogant sort of streak that came up, I think about a year or two into being a big pop star. Yeah, exactly. So I remember seeing his MTV diary and he had his teacher with him. driving around with him like all around like... Oh, didn't Clara do like a deep interview?

Didn't she do a thing with Bieber when she went to his house? Am I'm making it up? What? I'm jealous. I'm sure Clara... Hold on. Ampho. Did a special, eh? Yes, I'm sure.

She would know all the tea. Oh my God. All right, well, if we're going to play that game, Nat, get the clip of Justin Bieber sitting on my lap and singing to me on T4. Yeah. Baby Cerey who only hangs out of Justin Bieber's house, 6.5 million fucking views. Jesus.

All right, well, let's ask Clara what he was like. Clara would know, you know. I will always listen to Justin Bieber songs and I will always enjoy them and I will always think he's a very attractive man. Attractive? Oh, Kee's, man. Keyes, come on.

Not now. I don't fancy him with a shaved head, but around... No, no, I'm really trying to stop you... I'm really trying to stop you from saying this. I'm not alone at all. What album is this? Is this purpose?

The one after purpose, the one with the white... With white... No, you need to chill. Journals. You have to chill. I'm being dead-ass. That's 2013. Are you not allowed to fancy him but journals? I mean, you can do what you want. You can do what you want. Fine. Let's have a break. We'll see you after the break.

Dive into the bonkers world of David Mitchell and Robert Webb and listen to their BBC comedy show. From nonsensical maths quiz number wang to finding out what James Bond is really like as a party guest. There's something for everyone. Hello, MOTT AAT. Yes, that's right. This is the Ministry of Things that are apparently true. Yes, we do exist. The rumours are true, ironically. Start listening to that Mitchell and Webb sound, the complete series one to five, wherever you get your audiobooks.

Back to miss me in a headier, heavier. I think you need to have this Bieber chat. No, we've left Justin Beaver, although fancying him might come into this section, because we're here to talk about immorality versus morality. Is it immoral? Is it immoral? To fancy Justin Bieber around the journals album. How old is he in 2013? He would have been 21. 21? That is not a big deal.

I would have been 30. Oh shit. He was 19 when journals came out. Is that okay? That means I was 29. It means he legally couldn't drink in America. It's subjective, I don't know. It's subjective.

It's not subjective. It's societal. There was a 30-year-old man fancy a 21-year-old girl who was a pop star. No one would say shit. I would. Yeah, okay. I genuinely would. I'd be like, dude, you need to find someone on your own age.

That's weird. There's a lot of age gap relationships in my life right now and everyone seems very happy. Okay. I think the older you get, the more okay it is because you go through like a level of life experience. But I was out of this bar in Sri Lanka and there were these two girls,

they were like, they must, I don't know, they look like Swedish or something anyway. I was like, it's super European this fucking... Yeah, because you're in a surf place. But this girl was there and this dude was being super creepy and I was waiting to meet these two people and I was like, looked at her like, eh? You know?

And she was like, you know, oh, hey, nice to see you. Do you know what I mean? Like kind of to get away from this dude. But like she was 20. Keats, she looked like a baby man. Like, it's genuinely like a baby. I just can't get my head around the idea that somebody my age would be like, ooh. Like it's just freak.

That's me personally. Some people might look older or whatever. But in my head, I'm thinking like how, what am I talking to them about? If you've been born after Space Jam, like, what the fuck are we talking about? No. Well, this is it. What is it? I was in a fucking age gap relationship.

I was 34. My boyfriend was 21 and we went up for a year. As I've said, here and to you and the family, no, and everyone knows, one of the best relationships I've ever had. I learned about myself in that relationship, but I didn't learn from Asha. That's so weird. Like he didn't, I couldn't.

No, but that's what I mean. No, but listen, no, but this is important because it's not that I didn't learn things, but he didn't have anything to teach me. because he's so much younger than me, but I learned about the world in a different way through his eyes and through loving him. And it was one of the best relationships I've ever had. But at the moment, I've got a lot of friends who are female,

so it's the female older, so it's still a gap of over 10 years. I've also got another friend who I won't name, who's going up with someone who's 14 years younger than her. I also, someone that we both know is dating someone who's 30 and she's 41. So it's happening quite a lot. But my point, what I said before was, that's okay. When it gets to a certain point, it makes more sense to me. Like I think past 26, 27, like a 29 year old going out with a 40-something year old,

there's enough life experience there to have conversations about something. That I'm saying for me, it's like below 25, I just don't need. I mean, I'm being honest, the brain is still developing until 25. Yeah. It's like scientifically. Okay, I'll put it into perspective. My body was still growing at 21. My body.

Fucking hell. That is scary. Right? So, so I'm, so I'm just. just saying that it varies between people. Don't get me wrong. I'm sure there's exceptions to the rule. I'm sure there are people who have age gap relationships

and they're really happy. And I really, sorry, as a disclaimer, I don't want to anyone to feel whatever. I'm just saying for me personally, and if I was speaking to a close friend, like, and you, like, who's someone I love. If you haven't seen Space Jam in your childhood, what is there to talk about on the first date?

Well, do you know what? I think I do really understand that. And what I glean from what you're, saying is that there is a line and the line is it's not about the gap it's about the age of the younger person yeah yeah so like i think as you get older it just who gives a fuck like maybe if like you're 35 and you're the 55 world that's dope i also know somebody by the way i also know a woman i just think it's i just think with my friends it's bullshit because when we were in our mid 30s if i fancied someone who was like 28 everyone be like mckeeta get a life and now they're all

going out with 28 year olds i think so i just think it's actually quite what's the word but there's an interesting what's the word uh hypocritical If someone says something that fucking does it, hypocritical. But I do think that there is a new found, there's a new thing though, which is interesting, which I've heard from older women, which is that generationally there's an era of men who are kind of stunted in their, like, emotional awareness, whereas there's like a slightly younger generation of men who are arguably more mature than men in their, like, late 30s or 40s because they've had access to, like, more, like, therapeutic language and, like, books and, like,

TikToks and Instagrams, if they find themselves in like positive well-being spaces, they actually might be more mature than the men that at your age. So I'm almost contradicting myself here. Like that possibility I'm aware of. I also know a woman who is like an older woman who like actually love sleeping with young men because she just wants something casual. She's not really that stressed about it. And like in that respect, she just gets to have a really, really fun time and and.

Yeah. My auntie Debs would call it taking a lover. Yeah. And like as long as it's consensual and you and like, you know, and like, you know, you're not mugging anyone off, then, you know, do your thing. It's complicated. It's complicated. I do think morals and where your morals lie and when you have felt immoral or the opportunity to be immoral,

I think what it comes back to is choice, right? Because I was looking up what it really means, like, obviously I was. Obviously I was. And the moral definition is an individual or group's personal standard principle and beliefs regarding right and wrong behavior, right? So if we think someone does something immoral, we are, I think, probably terrified because they are a human being as are we

and we are capable of all things that another human being is. The only difference is choice. We could do all the terrible things we hear people do all the time. And I think that's what terrifies us about the idea of what are your morals. It's not like there's a line

and you're pushed onto one side. It's your choice. The reason we're talking about this is because of the film with Rob and Zendaya. the drama, which is interesting because it seems like no one really knows what it's about. And then as soon as you've seen it, everyone's like, oh my God, it's about this.

And you told me that it's, people are getting married. They're getting married, Robin Zendaya. They go for dinner with all their friends. Well, just just the, like, best, the bridesmaid and the, what are they called? Best man. Best man and... Oh, it's just those four.

I had Alana Haim. Yeah, she's great in it. Natty said she's such a good bitch in it. She's really good in it. Yeah, I was actually surprised. I'm not surprised, but I've not seen, like, Liquorish pizza. Liquorice pizza, yeah.

Yeah, I don't want to ruin it for people. But yeah, they're basically out of table and then they play a game, which is like, what's the worst thing you've ever done? And then... And everyone says something and everyone's like, ha ha, ha, okay. But then Zendaya says something.

And everyone's like, what the fuck? Yeah. See, that's interesting because also our moral and immoral behavior is... It's about people's reaction to it. Because does she say it as in, this is the worst thing I've ever done? Yeah.

And is worried about the way they'll react. She's not. She's surprised that it gets... I mean, again, you should watch it, but she's surprised how far it goes, but she definitely says it in the context of the worst thing she's ever done. Because I have something, which is, I've done. You're going to tell me the worst thing you've ever done. Shut up.

No, I actually can't even say it. I can't say it. I won't even say it out into the world. It was a very, very long time ago, but it's probably the most immoral thing I've ever done, and I will take it to the fucking grave. Thank you for telling you everyone that. It's got unhelpful for this conversation. Second worst thing you've done?

Yeah, I'll tell you the second. It's not pointless. I'll say a second. I was thinking this after this film. I was thinking what's the worst thing that I've ever done? Right. I'm sure you did.

Natty said that she went home in the car with her boyfriend and she said they couldn't even look at each other in the car. Yeah. To say it cryptically, so that not for my own personal experience, but sorry, but the film, me and Jade were both like,

we didn't think, I don't know if it does ruin it, but we basically don't think it's that deep. What she says, it tracks. To be honest, like the whole process, like where she goes with it,

happens in response like it for me personally and also jade thought the same like we were like ironically that's the point it is the point because i think the real message is that the character that hymn lady plays alana she is that her name alana sorry i think hers is worse what she what she does fantastic i think you're supposed i think you're supposed to think that see this is what i mean is it not in the eye of the beholder let's see let me tell you my second worst okay yeah i love how nervous you are. I actually I don't know what mine... Me and Jay did talk about it after but I can't remember

what I'm... See, I don't think it's that deep. Okay, go on. I went to a school for kids with ADHD and sounds like I'm going to do something so much worse than I do. Yeah. And it was like a private school. It was a crammer college that my nan paid for because I hadn't been school in ages. And I made friends with these American kids and this was at a time where I was going to loads of different schools and I would sort of make up a new persona for each school because you could.

But it was exorkept. and keeping it up. But as I was going to the school, I discovered squat parties. And then I found my persona and I was like, oh, I'm a squat rover. These kids, they asked me to acquire them some stuff so they could go to a party.

You can't keep this in. You gave drugs to kids. No, I didn't give drugs to kids. I stole all their money and I never, and I left the school. We can keep that in. You robbed children who gave you money for drugs. They weren't children.

We were all teenagers. We were all teenagers. Oh, shit. Shit, that's really funny. And then I told my mum, I had to leave this. I was being bullied and I had to leave the school and I just left the school. I just think it was one of the worst things I've ever done because I didn't need to do it.

And I was egged on by someone else who's a fucking asshole. And I shouldn't have listened to him. And it felt I was really good friends with two of the people. And I felt like I'd really, really, really fucking betrayed him. Yeah. Oh, God, that's a horrible feeling. Maybe it's the fourth worst thing I've done. There might be more second and thirds, of it. That's what I'm willing to tell.

What do you think? Oh, do I think it's immoral? Yeah, I mean, you shouldn't wrong people. There's a world of, you know, behaviours that I did when I was younger that, like, I'm not proud of. I don't think there's one particularly defining. Do you know what I mean? There's not any particularly, there was one years ago, I was asked to tell a secret that I, like, hadn't told anybody. And I had this memory, and I felt really ashamed of it.

So I can just say what that is, but I don't know if it's, like, the worst thing I've ever done. but when I was literally a child, like when I mean like six or something or seven, there was this girl who was playing around our house. No, it wasn't my house. So it was my cousin's house. And it was like bunk beds. And we were on the top of the bunk bed.

And we were playing Toy Story. I was Woody. She was buzzed light. Yeah. I was on the edge of the bed. She said to infinity and beyond. And I kicked her off the bed because I do believe a part of me thought she could fly.

She couldn't fly. She landed on her arm. She broke her arm. Oh, shit. She broke her arm. Yeah. I was terrified. I ran and hit under a table for like two hours.

I was punished. And we end up playing again once I had an arm was in a cast. But I've regretted it ever since. Well, it says that moral. So I guess that was an immoral thing to do. Yeah, definitely. To kick off the bed. I was really sad, by the way, just so if it gets people think I'm a psychopath,

I hit under a table. Well, that might be something else. Because I think a real psychopath wouldn't give a fuck about the moral implications or the immoral implications. I feared the consequence. Well, apparently our morals are guided by and shaped by our culture, our upbringing and our personal reflection. So if I talk about the story with stealing money from those rich kids that I went to school with, and P.S., I did feel remorse and utterly shamed. I'm shamed by, I hated.

I didn't enjoy spending the money. Right. I just say that. I was like, this isn't fun. Culture, yeah, I guess I was from Grove and I was poor. And they weren't upbringing. it's same zee's personal reflection I would never do anything like that ever again

So what's interesting for me about morality is there's like different schools of thought of how morality is shaped across the globe So I think morality is subjective Which is like what you're saying I think ultimately morality comes down to If we can find connection to how we feel And we believe that connection

We can basically direct ourselves through life Like going back and forth between like what feels good and not good. But the big conversation that like philosophers have is that religious people believe that morality is an intrinsic godly, like authority, basically. So like it's, that is essentially God, goodness is reflected in like our actions,

whereas sectarians would believe that morality is basically a consequence of things that work for the community. So it's only immoral to steal because like the community wouldn't like it, you know, but some people would believe that that's immorally, is immoral because of God. Yes, exactly, signifying a violation of social norms, ethics or moral laws. And it's about what your actions do, right?

So if they are, not do, but like, represent, if they are wicked, harmful or shameful. Yes, but this is... You're pretty much in immorality pool. I think I am more on the, like, the reason why I don't think morality is as fixed, and I certainly don't think it's as religious as other people believe is because I think it's like everything, it's flexible, it's fluid.

There was a story recently of a Brazilian woman, I don't know if you saw this, who walked in on her partner, I obviously can't say the word, but doing the worst thing imaginable to her daughter, and she killed him. Yeah, you told me this. She killed him, and as it stands,

they cleared her of any wrongdoing. Where was that Brazil? Yeah, if I'm to believe what I read. My stance on that, I'm in full support of her being cleared. However, some people would argue that you're setting a precedent for, oh, well, if she can just... Well, well, it's like the lady who castrated her husband in the 90s because he was violent and abusing her and for years. Lorraine Babbit.

I think we're living in a world particularly right now at this very moment where we are all being confronted with what is moral and what is immoral and where consequence lies. I think we got somewhere today. Go forth. Obviously, actually, we're going to do listen, bitch. Yeah, we're going to do listen, bitch. Go and have some fun.

I will. Keep discovering. I shall. Keep being curious. I shall. Keep being you. Love you, babe. Proud of you. Love you.

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