MMA Fighting - #478 – Jon Fitch, Deron Winn

Episode Date: April 22, 2019

On this episode of The MMA Hour, Luke Thomas speaks to Jon Fitch about his title fight with Rory MacDonald at Bellator 220, Firas Zahabi’s PED accusations, his long career, more. Deron Winn about his plans for the UFC middleweight division, Daniel Cormier’s future, his upcoming bout with Markus Perez at UFC Greenville, more. We also take your questions on the latest news in MMA on Sound Off and A Round of Tweets. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. It's Monday, April 22nd, 2019, and this is the MMA Hour, donks. Welcome. My name is Luke Thomas. I'm the host of this program. I very much appreciate you joining me today. A lot to get to, as always. A couple of guests coming your way. He was a standout in the wrestling world. Now he's going to be in the UFC, dropping by the way down to middleweight. I'm very excited about this man's potential push into the octagon.

Well, not merely that, but the top of the middleweight division. Duran Wynn will be here at 1 o'clock. At 120, our other guests will be headlining Bellator 220 this coming weekend, looking for the Belator-Wilterweight strap and to advance in the last leg of the quarterfinals at the Walthaway Grand Prix. John Fitch will be here at 120. Plus, as always, you'll be my guest, not one, two different ways, using the tweets, hashtag the MMA hour, and, of course, using the phone number.

844-866-24-6-8. We'll get to all that stuff. So there you go. Okay, hope everyone had a great weekend. I guess I did as well. Your boys are on call for the birth of my daughter here any moment. So we'll see how things go. But I intend to get through the show today. Yes, indeed I do. And I appreciate you guys tuning in. All right. So what we'll do is, as I put my people that treat Splenda like it's rat poison. It's not rat poison, y'all It's good Well, I don't know if it's good But it's not rat poison

Oh, you're gonna get You're gonna get, you know You're gonna get AIDS from Eat and Splenda No, I'm not I'm gonna be just fine Don't you worry about me And by the way, yes, if I had better coffee

I wouldn't even necessarily need a sweetener But you gotta Sometimes you gotta make Lemonade out of lemons y'all Let's try this joker Edible All right, so what we'll do now is we'll do some calls. As always, the number to call 844-866-2468.

If we don't finish all of them here, we can do them a little bit more at the end of the show. We can stitch them all together. But I'm told that the calls were good, even though it was a bit of a lighter weekend in MMA, man. There wasn't a whole lot going on. It was a little bit shallow, if I do say so myself. So happy to have a bit of a weekend off in terms of that, but it does create some problems when you're trying to generate user content. Are we ready to rock?

All right. Time now for the sound off. All right, let's go to my friend, Danny Seguera. There he is. Hey, buddy. How are you? I'm good. You got to put honey in your coffee, man.

That's the way to roll. Yeah, I don't think that's an improvement. You put honey and tea. Coffee as well, for sure. That is gross. It's the best. It's delicious. It's all natural, my friend.

That's Splenda, man. Oh, no. Yeah, okay. Show me the study where Splenda causes health problems. I'm sure I can Google something. You absolutely. send you a few articles your way? People, this is the same thing that happens with my PED debates.

Yeah. Right? This, here's what I'll do. I will make a claim, an evidentiary claim based on a study or a book or a paper I have written. Uh-huh. Or not resuming that read. Yeah. And then people respond with their amateur game theory.

I'll be like, oh, here are the facts of the case as determined by the best estimates and the best public experts that we have. People go, well, that can't be true because people just don't act that way. Right. Your amateur game theory isn't a challenge for the facts. There are some artificial sweeteners that could be bad for certain women in certain stages of their lives. But this idea that, like, I'm going to get some kind of major health problem from moderate use of Splenda is, my friend, I hate to tell you, not real. Sorry, but Splenda. Well, enjoy your bad coffee.

All right, how were the calls? The calls were good, man. They were, you know, interesting. Most of them were unrelated to UFC San Petersburg, so I really wonder how many people watched that event. Yeah, I guess not many. But, yeah, the calls are pretty decent. I did have to scrape the barrel a little bit,

but, you know, I found a good amount. All right. I'm glad you're admitting you had to scrape the barrel. That's always good for show morale. Yeah, of course, you know. I mean, after our splendor honey debate. All right. You know.

Let's do this. All right. Well, let's talk about Isla McChave. You just broke down his fight on the Monday morning analyst. I feel like he was the biggest winner on the car. Easily. Hey, Luke. My name is Abiraman. I'm calling from Northern Virginia. And I just want to talk about the Islam-Makachat fight over the weekend.

I feel like he showed great grappling wrestling skills, although his opponent was tougher than many would have thought. Where do you... You're going from here because if you look at him and Kabib, their wrestling style, the way they hold people down is pretty similar. And they use a lot of the same techniques. Do you think in a few years he can maybe become the lightweight champion after a country, Maybe hangs it up or moves up. And also, the striking might be a little bit better than Cabiz was at this stage or even right now. But do you think he has the potential to become the lightweight champion in the future?

Thanks. I have no idea. Until he fights more ranked and no... Sarjukian obviously is talented. Yes. But we just don't know how good he is without... There's not enough information to say. Right, right, right.

Until he fights better opposition, I couldn't tell you that. but as I mentioned, there are just, as you can see, there are certain positions he gets to that are, and certain attacks that he has that are just very, like you have to have a very high level of skill to do, but he has been brutally caoed before. So, you know, I don't know. Once.

Once is enough. That's true. It's more than Habib, now, Habib, the best fighter on the planet. I'm just pointing out, can he be the champion? Maybe. Let's see him fight a top 15 guys. He's also still pretty young, you know, he's 27, so, you know.

Here's the answer. I have no idea. We have to see him against better opposition. Yeah. You would agree, though, he definitely deserves the top 15 next. Yeah. Oh, yeah. He's too good to be fighting unranked guys at this point. I feel like he's been doing that for quite a bit. I mean, he got some nice names as far as like veterans, Glacin T. Bowler, right? Nick Lentz. But man, it's time to get a ranked opponent. I don't know. I'd like to see, I don't know if Gregor Gillespie has his hands full right now. I don't know if he's booked for any fight, but that fight could be fun. Yeah, he's beating. Good old Samba versus American wrestling. He's beating Chris Wade, Nick Lennie. Gleason Tebow, Cajon Johnson, and now Armand, Sarjukian.

Yeah, he is due a ranked opponent. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, get him a top 15. All right. With that out of the way, let's move on to the light heavyweight division and talk about a certain fellow. All right. Hey, Luke, hey, Danny. This is Justin calling from Stable, Massachusetts.

And I was just wondering, what do you guys think? I feel like Luke Rorkeld moving to 205 is really flying under the radar. I mean, this is a guy that we want to look there as one of the, greatest pounds to pound fighters in the world after he defeated Chris Widman back at UFC, I forget which number it was. But again, I feel like this move is really flying under the radar, and if he could

pick up the W and look impressive against Young Blakowich, impressively, of course, and for whatever reason, talk himself into the title fight who sold with John Jones, of course, gets past Tiago the July. Can you foresee Luke being

the person, the guy to dethrone John at 205? I was up to get your thoughts about this, Luke. I appreciate it. And your Monday morning analyst is one of my favorite pieces of television all week. So I appreciate it, guys. Keep up the great work. Talk to you soon. All right. Well, smart man, if he likes the Monday morning analyst, who doesn't? Probably a lot of people. All right, so... Are we sleeping on Luke Rockwell? I like how I had Luke Rockhole on the show last week. Yeah, yeah, I know. That's what I'm saying. I don't feel like anyone is. He's really flying under the radar.

Yeah, thanks, guys. I had him on the show last week. I do have to say, I feel like there is a trainer thought out there that he doesn't pose much of a threat to John Jones, I feel like, you know, people, I mean, from what I see on Twitter, not what I believe. There absolutely has been a drop in Luke Rockhold stock by virtue of the way he was losing in the amount of times he lost at the end at middleweight. Here's what I would say, for all the stock that his has dropped, that could rebound just as fast. Now, maybe not necessarily against Jan Blahovic, although it depends, I guess, how the fight. goes. Yes. But if he shows that number one, he is much more resilient, physically, and durable at 205, that would change a lot. If he looks like he's got boundless energy, that would change a lot. If he, by the way, can keep a consistent schedule. He's had a lot of injuries at 185 pounds.

That would change a lot. So can he be the guy to the throne? Again, you're asking questions about a guy who, yes, we know well. Dot, dot, dot, Danny, in another division under very different physical circumstances. We got to see how all that changes them. Or maybe it doesn't change them. We don't know. We'll find out. But I do think people are sleeping in his move to 205 a little bit. I think, you know, remember who gave John Jones the most trouble?

Like some of the people, obviously Alexander Goffs them, but people forget the B-Tor-Belphor fight. And that was from guard. John got in trouble from having B-Tor from being in B-Tor's guard. And we know that Luke Rockhold has an amazing guard. And, you know, if anybody can snatch an arm, would be him. Sure. Yeah, I'm really curious to see how he looks.

And look, if he manages to, you know, be able to absorb punishment a little better at 205, dude, he's a real threat, you know? And he was not a weak hitter at all at 1-85. And he's out there lifting weights now at 205. Yeah. I wonder what that might do for him. So it's like, also he has the frame of a light heavyweight. This isn't like A. YoA Romero, who's, you know, a shorter guy moving up at division. You go, okay, yeah, like, he's probably going to have an easier cut.

But, you know, he's still, at least height-wise, he's still. you know, fairly small for that division. Luke Rockhold, it looks like a natural tool for it. He does. And if you're asking me, am I highly intrigued by a potential move to a light heavyweight for Luke Rockhold? The answer is quite obviously yes. Yeah. Long time overdue.

I wonder the same thing about Chris Weidman. I don't know that to be a fact for him. I'm just saying, yeah, I do wonder. I absolutely wonder. I think it's a right choice. And again, I can't predict success. But if success finds him in the ways that we think it might, it certainly is a bit of a game changer. Also,

emotionally, like, it's a good move, too. Because, like, I mean, the Anthony Smith fight, like, you know, nonetheless is John Jones one of the greatest. You know, it's still a big fight, but it doesn't, it didn't have that big fight feel. And I don't think the Tiago Santos is going to give me that big fight feel. But I think if Luke Rockhold gets to a position where he fights John Jones, I think that will definitely have a big fight feel. Okay. You know, given the fact that obviously he's a former champion in Strike Force and the U.S. as well. Sure.

Yeah. All right. Let's talk about International Fight Week. Hey, Luke and Danny. This is Nino from Washington Township, New Jersey. I just had a question for you. Niño Brown. Well, all the good fights that are coming up on this international fight week card,

I was just wondering, what fight excites you the most and why? Thank you. Love listening to your show. Happy Easter, man. What a nice question. Yeah. All right, so we're assuming this is UFC 239, correct? Yes.

All right, so here is the card for UFC 2359. 239 as we understand it today. John Jones fights Tiago Santos, then Nunez Holm, and Ghanu versus Dos Santos. That's a sleeper on that card, bro. As you indicated, Blahovich versus Rockhold, Edmund Shabazian, shots to Armenia, taken on Jack Marshman, Diego Sanchez,

taken on Michael Kiesa, and then Jorge Mazvedal, Ben Askron. Candidly, I will tell you, probably my number one is either the main event or Ascran Masvidal. What about you? I like the main event. event. But, you know, I think for me is definitely Asker and Mousvedal because I think the winner there

will most likely end up fighting for the belt. You know, there's a few factors still floating around. We will see how Tyron Woodley looks against Robbie Lala, right? But I think that fight right there is pretty key for that division. And, you know, also Amanda Nunes versus Hollyholm. I think that's a fantastic about. I know some people are hating on it because they feel like Hollyholm is not deserving of a shot, but stylistically, like, that's going to be fun. That's going to be. a fun fight. You know, it's interesting. Let's say Ben Ascran wins. I don't know that he will, but let's posit a scenario where he does. That won't be as monumental as allowing women to the UFC. That's a much bigger deal, obviously, you know, literally many divisions, you know, dozens and dozens of participants.

But when you think back about a, like a got, like a cataclysmically indefensible decision, if Ascran wins that. It's one of them. And you're like, this is the guy that you kept out since 2013 that you told to go get experience or worlds like how ill-advised and utterly indefensible would his decision be if Ascran shows up and what starts beating UFC Walter weights in the way that he potentially could

it would be one of the biggest egg on your faces moments in UFC corporate history for sure yeah well we'll see what happens that's a tough fight too or Jorge goes in there and smokes them I don't know Mazvido also like talk about like you know we just saw Dustin Porio win the title like recently right

Mazvidal will be one of those guys as well a guy that's been there and has been grinding for forever and he's finally like putting everything together. I'm merely positing a scenario, not making a prediction. All right. Let's move on. Also, uh, that didn't get into Santo's fight.

That's a sleeper, I don't hear a lot of talk about it, but it's a baller, baller fight. Yeah, it is, man. Especially because D.C. will probably, you know, he has one fight and will probably be done after that. So the winner here, you know, could potentially be contesting for the bill.

Hold on, dude. I've got to think for my wife here. Hang on. Please don't tell me. She's going into labor. Fuck, sake. No, okay, sorry. I'm all right, I'm right. Jesus. You scared me there.

She sent me five messages, and I'm like, oh, here we go. Right as I'm on the air. No, no, I'm all right. Right in the middle of someone. Plus her brother is there, so I think we're okay. All right. Cool, cool, cool. Okay, let's talk about a fight going on this weekend, I believe, right?

Yep. In my hometown. Hey, Luke and Danny. This is Alex calling from Orlando, Florida. So, Luke, I always really enjoy your breakdowns and analysis of fights. And with that being said, I want to get your take on how you think the Jacaray-Sosa and Jack Hermanson fight is going to play out this upcoming weekend at USC Port Lauderdale. And do you think that Jack Hermanson has the ability to be a top contender in the middleweight division? Thanks.

Appreciate your time. Well, it's an interesting bout because Hermanson believes he has the best ground and pound in the UFC. I don't know if that's true, but he certainly has made that claim. He made that claim previously, as well as on this show. Yeah? Yeah. And Jacqueray, as we all know, has had one of the best ground games in the UFC for years, in MMA for years. Yep.

So, but he also can strike on the feet. So what I'm looking for is, I'll be honest, I think Jacques-Are is going to win. But I don't do, like, predictions anymore in large part because I don't, I'm not very good at them. But also because sometimes these guys take growth jumps, Danny. You've seen it. Yeah. Or someone just, you think one thing about them. And then you see them in a big fight.

You're like, okay, they leveled up here. And you didn't know it until you saw it. So this is a level up opportunity for Jack Hermanson. I'm not saying he can't win. My hunch is that Jacqueray is just more known. So Jacques-Rae could probably beat him standing. He's physical enough to match him. So what I'm looking for is, can Hermanson avoid a sub or a big punch, take him down,

and then use his cardio and relative youth? And probably does have a strength advantage on the ground later. Because if you can ground and pound Jacques-Are, buddy, you are doing something right. He's going to have instinctual defense. even when he's hurt for a long time. So that's going to be a tall order. So this is why I'm a little bit skeptical of his chances, but I could very much be wrong.

And honestly, he seems like a great guy. May the best man win. Yeah. That's going to be a fun fight. I was super impressed when he submitted David Branch. David Branch, I believe he's a Henssel, Gracie Blackbilt. Yes. Dude, it has been one for a long time.

Yes, he is. Yeah, he's a legit grappler, man. And, you know, getting that type of submission the way he did, it's super impressive. And Jackeret, dude, he's a little. He's one of the best grapplers to ever step in the octagon. So I'm really curious to see how it plays out. I do got to say Jacker has had a lot of wear and tear throughout his career.

Hermanson seems to be like the fresher fighter. I don't know if you agree with that. Yes. Although he's coming off the back-to-back thing. But yeah. Yeah, that's true. But, I mean, it was a quick fight. So, eh, but we'll see, man.

But, I mean, I think if Hermanson gets past Jacker, man, he's going to turn a huge corner in his career. And all of a sudden, he's a title contender in that division for sure. Absolutely. I mean, you can't get a win or Jack Gray and not be a contender. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. So, all right. Let's talk about T.J. Dillashaw.

People still have questions about him. Wow. What's up, Doc? Michael from Fresno calling about the PED issues in MMA. Really? I just want to hear comments. If you perceive there are any correlations between T.J. Delashaw's EPEO use and the decline of Hennemar Burrell and Cody Garbrandt

from the career at these current points. Thank you. So I just want to say Usada actually went back because I feel like this flew under the radar. Usada actually went back and tested the samples for T.J. Delosha's samples when he fought Cody Garbrand.

And I think all the samples that he gave throughout the time that the UFC had the partnership with Usada and they came back clean from EPO. Which doesn't mean he wasn't. wasn't using. Exactly, because it could be, EPO apparently has a very short half-life, so it can go away quite quick.

But still, I mean, we don't know, you know? So we can't, we can't attribute... What do you think? What's your hunch? What's your gut tell you? I mean, we don't know, so I can't assume, but like, I do have to say, you know, that was his style, man, and we do, like,

also, Henry Lowe's decline can... We know he also had really tough weight cuts as well. He murdered himself. There was a thing with Hendricks, too. Everyone's like, oh, you saw it with Johnny. He got a canceled fight with T.J. Dilloshaw because of the wake-out. Didn't he, like, slip and hit his head on the song or something like that? And also, people thought Johnny Hendrix was using.

I talked to him about it to his face. But, and maybe that was true, right? But here's what we know was true. He murdered himself with wake cuts. He absolutely destroyed himself. So that was a big component as well. I mean, like, again, I've got unorthodox views on this. The answer is probably, maybe, you know, if you want to believe that or that he should be reasonably culpable about it for it.

That's fine. And also, I got to say, like, Garbrand's decline is not really a tax. to physically how he looked, because Baral clearly, like, you saw a different fighter. Yeah, this guy was not moving the same.

Yeah. And he wasn't taking the same damage. Or didn't have the ability to take the same damage. While Garbrand, like, the first few minutes of that Muño's fight, like, he was looking good, man. It was all until, you know.

He got hit into whatever. Yeah, here's the thing. People are like, oh, Garbrand's decline. Point of order. I don't think Garbrand's decline is permanent. Yeah. And I think it is very reversible. Yes.

He does not, in any way, shape, or form. He's not in the same place, Barrault. No. He does not, and by the way, he's in his 20. What is he? 28, 29. Something like that.

Cody Garbrand, this idea that we're going to bury, I'm not saying the caller was, but I've seen some people being like, oh, Cody's declined. Yeah. Again, point of order, whatever troubles he's experiencing, these are very correctable ones.

Okay, he has been knocked out a couple of times. That's not great. Or a few times at this point. However, I don't think that his chin is gone because he had some issues in the amateurs when he was fighting this way. Yeah. And he even acknowledged on Twitter, part of his problem, to quote Cody Garbrandt,

was he was fighting like a dumbass. Yeah. I am a big believer in Cody Garbrant. I have seen the upper most of his abilities. He is very talented. Now, whether he will get back there, I don't know. I am utterly unprepared to bury him. I am not going to do it, not now, certainly, until there's much more evidence.

I am, in fact, anticipating something of a comeback to be candid with. with you. That's sort of where my heart is at on this one. Also, you know, let's be honest, there's been turmoil at Team Alpha, you know, I believe it's called Alpha MMA. Yeah, I believe they're called, I'ma. Yeah, I believe they're going to bunch of women there and, you know. Because, you know, they switched coaches.

You know, Cordy Garberon went through the Duane era, right? Then we know that, then, man, I'm forgetting his name. Oh, he also left as well. No, no, no, after him. Buckles? Buckles, yeah, yeah. He was also big into his, his whole development as a fighter as well,

and he left. So, you know, there's a lot of variables. So I wouldn't agree with this caller. I think maybe there is something to be said about T.J. Dillishaw's EPO usage and their decline. But I think there's so many other factors that attribute to the slump that these two other fighters are going. So here's the one question I would have for everybody. Again, I've got unorthodox opinions, but it's something you should confront. And it's something you should have an answer for, right?

This is the basic belief that I have. If someone says, Luke, do you think EPO is a performance-enhancing drug? It is quite clearly a performance-enhancing drug. Here's one thing, though, that you have to kind of acknowledge. knockouts and TKOs since Usada has been introduced have not declined. Now there's a question of as an entertainment sport whether you would want them to. But on aggregate, is there less damage being done since the introduction of Usada to the physical bodies of UFC fighters? This is not me making it up.

And again, I don't want to hear anyone's amateur game theory. I want you to confront the facts. there is no evidence that the UFC is in any way safer on aggregate by virtue of Usada's introduction. You can make a claim, Danny, and I wouldn't fight you on it, that perhaps TJ heaped on extra punishment or maybe the stuff that he wouldn't have done, but for these other factors. No one really knows, but certainly I can't dispute that. It is what it is. Here's what you can't dispute. You're getting just as many knockouts. You're getting just as much trauma. It hasn't declined even a little bit.

So this idea that by taking on the most rigorous, if still flawed, drug testing system has resulted in a safer sport, maybe in the sense of trying to work through the challenges of one thing I think I will credit Jeff Novitsky is trying to raise awareness about the challenges of weight cutting. Yeah. Right? I think that as a culture, we've gotten a little bit better about it, certainly than the old days. But the reality is, it's, there is, look at me, there is no safe way to fight.

there's there's it's not possible the it is by definition assault it is what you are doing and so therefore you have to ask yourself how is it you can introduce rigorous drug testing and not have a drop off in trauma that should tell you something and you should have an answer for it now whatever that answer might be i leave up to you but this idea that like we're not hitting baseballs or footballs this is this is two by people right well why hasn't the violence declined anyway and also by the way you also have another sport that has has even worse health outcomes like American football than you do in MMA, and they don't have hardly any PED testing policy and no one over there cares. Also a bit of a contradiction. I know

everyone's going to downvote this and they're going to hate on me. I don't get. Again, here's what they're going to do. Here's exactly what they're going to do, Danny. I'm going to bring up these terribly, what do you want to call? Not merely inconsiderate, terribly unfortunate for the narrative nonsense that they've been fed for 30, 40, 50 years and they're going to give me amateur game theory, rather than responding to what the facts on the ground

are. Just want to point that out. Okay. Sorry. Yeah. All right. I'm going to get Darren Wynn, but by the way, are you an Avengers fan by any chance? I guess the movies. I didn't read the comic books. Yeah, the movies. All right, well, I'm going to leave you with this question because I

probably seen the movies, but I don't even remember them. Is that what you are? Man, I'm too cool for superheroes, dude. I'm just kidding. I'm just not a big fan of, like, superhero movies. Although the Dark Knight series were good, but I mean, I'll watch them occasionally. Before you go, did you see Infinity War, the last Avengers one? I think so, but I can't remember.

How do you not know? Does Hulk grab some dude and just start smashing him around? No. Infinity War was when Thanos beat the balls off of Hulk. Oh, no, no, no, no. I didn't see it. That's the best one, dude. Yeah, well. You sicken me. You sicken me. Yeah, all right? So I'm going to leave you with this call, right?

All right? All right, let's do it. You carry a team with this one. Hi, Luke. It's Quinn from Sacramento. I don't have any MMA-related questions this time, but I am curious. How am I excited for you? Are you for Avengers Endgame?

Are there any specific a-offs you want to see? Do you want to see Captain America, lift Thor's Hammer? You know, just what are you looking forward to? How amped are you? And thanks. I love the show. Every Monday, man. Luke Thomas in the morning. Thank you. Have a good day. Hey, there we go. Well, what a very nice question. I really appreciate it. The answer is I'm unbelievably pumped for it.

I thought that was a Josh Brolin who played Thanos, I believe, the last time. In any event, I thought he did an unbelievably great job. I thought the weaving of the narratives, essentially Infinity War was just a bunch of different movies all kind of taking place simultaneously, I think four or five stories at once. I was surprised at how Central Guardians of the Galaxy was to that story. But each of those, if you've never watched the Marvel Cinematic Universe, Spider-Man has a feel, Thor has a feel, Captain America, Iron Man, Guardians of the Galaxy, Hulk, they all've got their own different feels. And they kind of made a way to, Black Panther, they all found a way to make it work together in a very, very ingenious, smart, deft.

You know, look, it's not a Kirakurasawa before a fun action movie. I thought they did a really great job. Yeah, I'm very excited. I mean, I've got a couple ideas about what they're going to do with Dr. Strange going back in time, but, you know, I don't know if the, I don't know if that part of the Infinity Stone is going to be available to them. I don't know. I don't know. I have a lot of, so what do I want to see? I want to see Thor, I want to see Thor take Thanos because that was sort of like his mandate. I want to see some characters permanently die.

if you're going to have this kind of a switch and the end of an era, which they claim this to be, you know, some of these Bamas can't come back. Some of them have to stay gone. So I don't know who that's going to be, but it should be some of them. And I'm looking for some surprises. I'm looking for some surprises.

I want to see some other villains too. All right, let's go to this gentleman now. Stud wrestler, and he was a coach on the Ultimate Fighter. He's an A.K.A. member. and a whole lot more. He joins us now via the magic of Skype, my friend and yours, the one and only, Duran win. Hi, Duran.

How are you, buddy? I'm doing well. Am I pronouncing your name, their first name correctly? Darren, but, dude, in our life, people call me Darren. So I correct the majority of people, but sometimes I don't find it necessary, I don't correct them, but, yeah, it's Duran, bro. All right, let's get to it right away.

First of all, great me if I'm wrong, were the, were the Pan Am games over the weekend in wrestling? It was crazy. Has that happened before? I'd have to check, but I wouldn't be surprised if it did happen before, but I've never seen it happen before. You know what's crazy is they didn't send all their number ones either? Like there was a bunch of, there was kind of a couple ways where it was just a random villain.

That's just how good we are as a country these days. Very good. There's a bunch of questions I have about that, but let me get to the first one. We have spoken before, although first time you and I are speaking on this show. You have been signed by the UFC. You have your first fight set up. What took so long? You know, I don't want to say too much, but like me and D.C.

We're going to fight on the same card to begin with. And some things came up, and D.C. couldn't fight right away. So we kind of had to figure out what it worked best for me and what made sense. And then even with this, we actually had, you know, more. More than four or five guys declined the fight. I just found. So. Oh, really?

Yeah. So even in the UFC, man, I had guys turn down the fight to me, which is really surprising. But the good thing is, Nick did a good job at finding, obviously, a new opponent. And we actually had, I thought we had one lined up that Anthony Hernandez. And then for some reason he pulled out last minute, and I thought that was going to be it.

And literally like the next day, Mick found Marcus Perez for me. And we just said, yeah, because I just want to fight, bro. You know what I mean? I just want to fight. So at this point in the UFC, everybody's going to be tough. So it doesn't matter who I fight right now. You know, the journey has to start somewhere. So I'm ready.

All right. So that's crazy. So first of all, let's go back a step. If everything had gone according to plan, how long ago would you have been in the octagon? Probably March. So originally fought in March. and D.C. was dealing with some injuries and stuff, and so we didn't know when he was going to fight.

So he kind of took a step back, and which is okay, because at the same time, as it's taken a long time for me to get back in, I'm just getting better as a fighter, you know? I'm still fairly green. So, you know, I really, I think I made my pro debut, like, right around two years ago. And so I'm still green in the game,

and I still have so much to learn. So I'm not like part of me I'm like yo I want a fight I need a fight I need a fight And then part of me I'm like you know it's fine because I'm just getting better So so I'm okay with it Are you now worried that as you get better let's say you go in there and blow the doors off your first opponent Are you like thinking to yourself well if I had this much trouble getting a fight before I even Thought in the Octagon what's gonna happen after I start beating the brakes off these guys? Yeah well that's always one of these guys who get like fast track to the title and stuff like

that and some guys that worked out for obviously is he had worked out for him you know and and and but i'm okay with it i don't want to be you know i said something the other day is i don't want to be here for a long time you know i'm just here for a good time so um i'm okay if i get that because if i start beating dudes up only the top guys are going to take the fights for me right so but i'm okay with that obviously like i said you know i'm very confident and i have a lot to learn and and a lot and and a lot of experience to get in the octagon. But I truly believe sooner than later I'll be ready for anybody. And I already think I'm world class.

So I'm personally not scared to get in there with anybody. But that's just who I am and that's who I've always been. And so I'm not too concerned, man. I want to put this dude away. I want to put him away. And then I want to fight right away. I want to fight three times this year. So what that means is the only way I'm going to do that is if I put this

dude away. You know, I can't go in there and get a three-round brawl war with this dude and think I'm going to fight again in two months, you know? So I'm hoping that I knock this dude out and put him away or whatever, knock him out, kick him on him, submit him, you know, there's a lot of ways I can finish this dude. So I want to do that and then I want to fight again right away. So I'm okay. I'm okay with fighting the better guys and hopefully sooner than later. Now, are you trying to follow the Israel-Ad-Assain your path? And by that, I mean the following. He was like you, a star athlete in another sport,

and he had six fights in 14 months. Now, maybe you're not looking exactly for that, but something like get in there, make a statement, and quickly follow it up. Put a lot of fights under your belt. Is that what you want? I tell people all the time is, you know, I competed at a high level for 25 years, you know?

And so I don't want to do it. You know, who knows? I always tell you, but you never know where you're going to be in 10 years. But I don't want to – I truly don't want to follow the same path in D.C. and fight until I'm 40. You know what I mean? I don't know if I want to fight until I'm 40. So the sooner and the better, but I also don't want to go too soon, you know, because the sticky thing about that is, say, I'm on a four or five fight win streak,

and, you know, I come in and I beat a top 10 guy, and they want to, you know, fast-track me to the title shot or something. say I get beat, you know, say I'm not ready. And then what? And then what's next, you know? And then I got to fight another top five, top seven guy, right? And then say you lose again, right? I mean, there's all these variables. So whatever happens, happens, but I'm not afraid to fight six times of 14 months.

I'm used to having 100 wrestling matches a year. You know what I mean? And it's obviously not the same thing, but I always tell people wrestling is actually harder in fighting. So I, I'm okay with fighting. I'm okay with fighting six times just 14 months.

I would love that. I would love the money. I would love the activity. I would love it, man. Tell me why wrestling is harder than fighting. I'm not challenging you. I'm more picking your brain, but give me the case.

A lot of it's relaxed, right? You're striking. You've got to be relaxed on your feet. And in wrestling, you're relaxed, but it's also, when you're engaged with somebody, you're engaging every muscle in your body

at once, right? And so a wrestling match, like now, so these guys are the P&M, they wrestled two, three-minute rounds, six minutes. So for six minutes, it's like a six-minute sprint. Fighting, you know, I found that you can relax and you can back up. In wrestling, you can't back up, right?

Because you get called for stalling or passivity. And fighting, you can back up. If you get tired, if you get rocked or something, you can back up. and wrestling that look down upon. So you're always constantly moving forward and you're constantly engaged. And for a guy like me,

the last like seven or eight years, I was wrestling internationally. So I was wrestling to the team USA and I was wrestling the best guys in the world. So every single one of my fights or every single one of my matches were very, very hard. In training only gets harder as you get older because in wrestling training, I'm bent over. You know, you're bent over.

You know, I'm almost 30 years old. Think about bending over. day, you know? And if you can stand up and relax, I personally think a guy who's been at a high level at both sports, I truly, and I, you could probably ask, like, a guy like Ben Asper and or Henry or any of these guys that I truly, truly think wrestling training is harder than M&A training. Now, you said you don't want to be here until your... I can believe that. You said you don't want to be here until D.C., like when he's 40,

but what if you were getting D.C.'s checks? Yeah, no, for sure. No, no, no, no, for sure. Don't give you wrong. You know, if I'm getting those checks, I'll stick around. Absolutely. I'll stick around for the super fight. And, you know, if I'm defending in the title and whatnot.

But I've already had a lot of competition under my belt, you know. So it's, I'm not looking to be a journeyman. And I'm definitely not looking to be one of these guys who are just fighting because they need the money. You know what I mean? So I, we'll see. You know, like I told, 10 years ago, if you were asking if I was going to be a fighter

and fighting the UFC, I would have told you hell no. You know, I still people hell know I don't want to fight the UFC because I'm good. I don't want to fight out. I just want to coach

and kind of live my life after I'm done competing with wrestling. And because, dude, D.C. And my man has made me to fight. Here I am. So I love it, though. Don't get me wrong. I love competing.

I'm super competitive guy and everything I do. So I love it. I'm super happy with my life. And I'm just excited. to see. I'm so excited for this to happen because there's going to be one or two things that happen to me. Personally,

and my debut, you know, a star is going to rise, which I think is going to happen, which people, all these people that doubt me, oh, you should be a welterweight, oh, you should fight 155, they'll see. You know, they'll see. Or I do need to fight welterweight

or consider what I'm doing, and I get beat up or something, you know? There's going to be one or two things. I'm going to win or lose. You know what I mean? and we're going to see how that happens and I'm excited to see because I think I know what's going to happen and I think I have a lot of support

and I think a lot of people are excited to watch me fight but I also think I have a lot of naysairs because of my height and stuff like that but different set of skills that kind of eliminate the height factor so I'm not too concerned man I'm excited now for folks who may not know how tall are you

I'm like I'm real short So, but, so, Luke, you know what I was thinking about the other day? Ah. Think about this. We're talking about inches, right? So, Marcus spreads is like six foot tall, okay? He's six inches taller than me. This is six inches.

This right here in my fingers. You know what I mean? Six inches. We're talking about this little bit right here. That's going to be the siding factor of the fight, this right here? I don't think so, man. You know? So I'm not worried about it.

Also, I was kind of thinking, like, given that you are a wrestler and that would, I mean, I'm not saying you can't do anything else, but given that's your background, it's your bread and butter, doesn't the shorter stature to a degree, if a guy's got a really good jab, it doesn't help. But if a guy has an ability you can get inside, you're automatically underneath their hips. It makes lifting and takedowns and getting on their legs actually a little bit easier. Is when I spark taller guys, they have to lower their levels to me, right? So Marcus Pres might be 6-1, but during the fight, he's going to be like 5-11. You know what I mean? Because he's going to bend his knees because he's going to have to, have to have to respect my take-down. And if he does, I'll take him down, you know?

And that's what a lot of guys find, even guys I spar in the gym or whatever, they're telling me, if they don't respect my takedown, I'll just take them down real quick to make them respect my take-down. So a lot of guys have to lower their level to me. So no one's really going to be standing up, shirt-up tall, right? So no one's going to actually get their exact height. So that plays a factor, too, man. And, you know, I close distance really well. And another thing is, like, I try one of the best gyms in the world, right?

D.C. is like my best friend. That's like my big brother. And, you know, I spend time with all our best guys, you know, Cain. I go to Cain's house, you know, one-on-one. We're in the grass at night, like, working on head movement, working on stuff like this. Like, I'm getting advice from the best guys that this sport has ever seen, you know? So if you don't think that they are going to do their best that they can to prepare me

or if I'm not going to prepare for everything, then people are tripping, you know, because if you think that these guys got here by fluke and they're not going to, you know, push me in the right direction of things I need to do to be successful in this sport, It's funny to me that people think that we don't know what we're doing over here And all the stage discussion, it's always been discussed, my height is always been discussion But even in wrestling, bro, people are naturally shorter in wrestling, but I've wrestled monsters my entire life Like the biggest men you've ever seen I mean just these guys from Russia, you know, from Dagestan Like these absolute monsters of men I've wrestled so I've wrestled with the gold medalists

I've wrestled the best guys in the world And I do know it's different, but I think that I can correlate a lot of my wrestling experience to fighting. And we're going to find out, man. I can sit here and talk all I want, but we're going to find out. You know, one day on, what, June 22nd, we'll find out. Now, you're dropping to middleweight for this fight, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. How's it going?

It's fine. You know, I just start, I'm starting early. I did a pre-camp. We kind of had this day locked in for a little while. We knew I was going to fight. So, so, you know, I've just been switching it up. I've been doing more cardio. I've never been much of a cardio guy.

But I train, I train, like, when I spar, I spar very hard. So that's what trains my cardio, basically. And we do some other things. But I've been running, and I kind of learned from some guys, and I talked to some nutrition and stuff like that. I used to think that when I had a run, I had to run really hard. and I'm not built for running at all. So what I've done recently is I've just been kind of easing into running, you know, just real light.

And I think that a lot of that is going to help me just easily trim down. And, you know, I've cut weight in my entire life. So I know what to do. I know there's these secrets. And I know I can, you know, Tyler Minton and, sorry, I was getting a call. Thank you. And Ian Larios, they come out and help us a lot. and they're good guys.

And if I ever need to ask them for any advice, you know, Tyler already wrote me up a thing of what I need to do and stuff like that. So I have all the support. I have all the resources to make it. And it's going to go just fine. I actually think at the end of the day,

I'm going to make the weight a lot easier than not everyone originally thinks. Could you go to 170? Like, not right now, but I'm saying, like, in your mind, do you think you could do it? Sense for me. But I've always said something makes my life, my day-to-day life miserable, it'll never be worth any amount of money or any amount of

Sam or anything like that. So, you know, I'll have to see if I can, you know, it'll never be comfortable. But if I can get, get, if I think that I can realistically get down to 170 without it absolutely changing everything in my life and my happiness, then I'll, then I'll highly consider. But, but we'll see. It'll, it'll, it'll make more sense. I've made 185 a few more times, you know, and see how I feel and see what realistically, because like I said, what people don't understand, man, if I'm not watching my way, I easily walk around like 225 pounds. I'm very, very dense and thick.

So, yeah, we'll see. We'll see in the future. It is wild, though, that you have the body type that you do, athletic as it may be. And then on the other side, you've got Adasania, like 6'4, 80-inch reach. It's crazy that the middleweight division has that kind of body variance. Crazy. And a lot of people, I said, you know, the biggest downfall I ever get is, I see on comments. Obviously, I don't care. And we talked about this before because I think the MMA community of fans are terrible. But, you know, I get a lot of discrepancy of my height, right?

But, like, I train with very tall guys. Like, even my roommate, Luis Sanya, he's six foot three. And I spark him all the time. So, like I said, man, one thing that is different for me is my world-class takedowns. And it's something that, you know, obviously, I don't, I, your Romero is a more successful wrestler than I was internationally. But, you know, I just think about I have something to offer that we've never seen. So, and like I said, we'll see, you'll see. I have a lot of really, really interesting takedowns, and I finish very well, and I always have.

So that's the difference between me is, like a guy like Kelvin Gaston, who I respect very highly. I think he's a stud. But the difference between me and him is, I'm getting dizzy to his butt. more than he did. Because I wrested at a very high level, and I've learned how to how to maneuver these guys to a finish

that only 1% of the world has, you know? So like I said, I think that I have a different set of skills that a lot of people haven't seen, and I think it's going to be interesting, and I'm always going to bring the fight. I'm a fighter at heart, and I'm very, very competitive. So I think that at the end of the day,

they're going to love what I have to offer. What happens when Ben Ascgren wrestles Jordan Burroughs at Beat the Streets. Guys personally very well, and I love him, and I love him both. I love what Ben's bringing in the M&A world, and I respect Jordan Burroughs very highly. I've known him for a long time, and I know if Ben knows this, and I hope he doesn't, he's good. I hope he doesn't get mad if you're saying this, but I don't think it's going to be close.

The difference between wrestling at a very high level and you can stop wrestling at a high level when you transition over to MMA, it's not going to be. close because all JB's working on is his wrestling. And a couple years ago, actually, we wrestled in this thing. There was a pro-Mats. It's called a Flow Pro event. And then I was a little brother who's a national champion as well. Max.

And I wrestled Max. Yeah, yeah. I wrestled Max. And my buddy Clayton Foster wrestled Ben. We wrestled him. They're right there in Milwaukee in there. So they stopped this kid's tournament. And we had these pro matches.

There was like five of them. I was the co-man. And Ben and Clayton were the man. I won, but I don't know. He very handily beat him, and that was three or four years ago. And as you get older, you're wrestling. It's worse. It's proven back.

Now, you're a good friend of D.C. You were recruited by D.C. You train with D.C. Let me ask you this. I'm merely an observer of D.C. So what I want is utterly divorced from knowing the man as personally as you do. I've interacted with them, obviously, but not in that kind of capacity. Yeah.

What do you want for him in the last chapter of his career? Do you want him to fight John Jones in heavyweight? Do you want him just to fight Brock Lesnar? As you speak as a friend and training partner, what do you want for him? I speak very open-mindedly, just like I did last time. And I always do. I wear my heart on my sleeve, and I think that it's gotten me to where I am today. But I don't think he should ever worry about a guy like John Jones ever again.

And as much as people want to act like he's the greatest, he's a cheat. He's a coward. He's a cheat. He was never, he's never been legal. Even his past football fight, he keeps filming through the test. So, so he's a cheat and he'll never, his, his legacy will always be tarnished. D.C. has passed, like, something like crazy, like 60, 60, you shot a test from when he's in the Olympics.

Like, he's a, you know, he's a clean, fair, hardworking guy, right? And, and I want him to fight, I want him to get one more big paycheck and get out. because he doesn't need anymore. He's submitted his legacy. He's done things that only a couple people have ever done. You know, he's only lost as to the biggest fraud in MMA. And so, you know, D.C.'s a really good guy, man. And what a lot of people don't see and people hate on him a lot

because of the John Jones thing is what D.C. does behind the scenes is what makes him who he is. I've never seen a person as selfless as him behind the scenes. Take care of people. You know, we coach kids and we coach high school team, and a lot of people think that it's me just coaching, and D.C. shows up whatever he wants. In reality, D.C. is there just as much as me, if not more.

He's very selfless. He acts as if, you know, he isn't a celebrity all the time. He's very humble guy. He's very down-to-earth guy And he's a good dude, man And all I want out of him is, for him, is I want him to get one more big fight, hopefully Brock at heavyweight.

I don't think he should ever make himself Get down to 205 again, because it's no point. I think he should fight this one fight at heavyweight Brock And get out, man. Finish on top. Not a lot of guys finish on top. You know, not a lot of guys finish on top by defending their belt.

It's very true. Each belt. he defended each belt and he deserves he deserves it man he deserves a finish on top and obviously I'm biased but you know I'm a realist too

and I respect a lot of guys and DC he's one of the he's a guy I respect more than most so I want him to make some more money and get out bro and just do some TV

and whatever he does to make money you know he's put a lot of strain you know a lot of people don't agree with it but we train hard today today today we spar hard a lot. He spars hard a lot. And he's going to want to spar me hard today.

I know he is. But he's worked very hard to get to where he is. So I just hope he makes a lot of money in good town. Well, I can't wait to see your Octagon debut. Your won at Golden Boy MMA was phenomenal, or at least that fight anyway. Duran Wendt takes on Marcus Perez. This will be UFC Fight Night 154, June 22nd,

at the Bonsacor's Wellness Arena in Greenville, South Carolina. Duran, thank you so much for your time in Canada today, man. Can't wait for June. There he goes. Very good. Duran win. Interesting to have his perspective. All right, we go from one man who's got a lot to say to another man who's got a big fight coming up on Saturday, Belator 220.

Last Leg, so to speak, of the Belator-Wilterweight Grand Prix. Not only that, main event, not only that, there's a title fight on the line. And one half of the co-made event joins us now with crystal clear Skype. John Fitch is here. Hi, John. How you doing? Good, good to be on. Oh, man, look at you.

How did you get the Skype? So that's like 1080p, 60 frames a second. Well, I do, I do pretty much for the last year, I've done daily live streams. I call it a shake break on my YouTube channel, Fisher John Fitch. So I've got my lights. I've got everything set up. This is where I do my shake break from. I know.

I'm so, I'm like, not a lot of fighters know about, you know, internet connectivity and lighting and audio, but you got it on lock, John. I'm learning. I'm learning. It's been a learning process just last year. I had the the Belator guys were filming and doing stuff this last week, and he helped me a little bit with the lighting setup, so that helps a lot. Hey man, you've been a guy who's been around the block. We'll talk about the fight in just a second. This will be your second fight in Belator, as I understand it, if memory serves. How has it been so far? Good. Been around the block.

call me old. Hey, are you a little bit older than me and I feel ancient? Some days with these kids, it makes me feel, it feels ancient. You know, you have people telling me, you know, 20-somethings are telling me they used to watch me all the time when they're little kids. Oh, wow. But, yeah, yeah, it's been a great experience. I really like being with Beltor.

Scott Coker does a great job. They promote well, you know, people don't think I'm retired. So that's a great thing to be with a promotion that people know you're still fighting. Opportunity to fight San Jose, opportunity to fight for a belt, being this tournament. It's all been really good. I've been excited and happy with everything. All right, so let's talk about your task at hand. You've got to fight Rory McDonald.

Let's talk about the fight in particular. A lot of different ways to size him up. The way I'd like to start first is he's coming off that loss to Musasi. Will the effects be lasting or was that somewhat aberrant? I mean, I can't think of that. You know, you can't think, oh, well, you know, my opponent's not going to be 100%. You want to always train for the best version of your opponent. You want to be training for somebody better than your opponent, actually.

So, you know, I don't put those type of things into my mind going into it, going into training. I just focus on me, what I need to do. I pretend that, you know, my opponent's a well-programmed robot, and I have to defeat it. Nevertheless, he has taken a fair bit of damage. The nose issue is well publicized. When you think about offense you want to launch, I'm not saying you're thinking to yourself, oh, God, I got to get the nose first and only.

It's not what I'm saying. But I guess what I am asking is you must also game plan to an extent around whatever vulnerabilities you detect, the nose being one of them. That's true, but at the same time, I mean the nose is on the face. And when you're trying to hit somebody, you're generally trying to hit him in the face.

So the nose is, just kind of going to be there. It's not, it's not like I have to spend a whole lot of extra time targeting, you know, this special spot behind his back on his shoulder or something. It's his face. You're going to try to hit it. You're going to try to elbow it anyways. If he has problems with it and there's, there's blood in the water, then, you know, you do more work towards that. But, you know, he's got a lot of things to attack. And I plan on doing my best to, to exploit all of his weaknesses. How has he looked in Bellator? Really good. Really dominant.

good stand-up, good wrestling, good ground. So he's been performing well. It's going to be a great challenge. I'm looking forward to it. Before he fought Musasi, were you thinking to yourself this is a bad idea? Kind of, just because, you know, Musassi is a high-level guy. And any time you're going up, you know, two guys that are high-level and one guy has 15 pounds of muscle on the other guy,

the kind of fight is supposed to look like the way, you know, it's supposed to look like that in my mind. You don't see too many guys not getting dominated like that. How come some guys go up and wait and it looks that way? You know, we saw, for example, Max came up against Dustin, and it didn't, you know, there was a real power differential. And then other guys come up and they just smoke the other guy at the higher weight class. Well, I think a little bit of it has to do with the style of the fight too.

You know, Dustin was happy with sitting in the pocket and trading. with him. He had, you know, plenty of power, but, you know, he didn't, he didn't go in there and big brother him, throw him to the ground and put him in the cage and the fence and then smash on him. You know, he fought, he fought a sniping war style, you know, powerful sniping, but it's still a sniping style. It's just, it's a little different. I think you B.J. Penn and Machita back in the day, Machita style is not the time that, that throws you on the ground and crushes you, you know, he's going to pick at you from a distance. Okay, is this the hardest fight in your judgment?

Not merely by virtue of the title, but forget the title. Is this the hardest fight you could have in the quarterfinals of the Waltrowy Grand Prix? Possibly. I think they're all tough fights. I think everybody brings something special to the table. I don't think anybody's a pushover. Ed Ruth, Neiman Gracie, you know, I already beat Daly, but MVP, Korchhoff, and Lima, they all present their own special problems.

Nobody's a pushover. This is a very deep weight class that Belator has put together. And you're going to have to figure out your ways around the puzzles, and that's really exciting. That said, you wouldn't be in this tournament if you weren't trying to win it. So who are you going to meet on the other side of the bracket? I think there's a good potential of fighting Lima on the other side. He's looking really good.

He's really big, he's strong. I think he might be able to figure out a way to get past MVP. But I can't put MVP out of it. He'd be a fun fight. And, you know, he's got a lot of athleticism, a lot of explosive power. And you never know. He could land something crazy on Lima. It could be either one of those guys.

Now, you're what, 41? Is that right, 41 years old? I keep telling me that. You're 41. How do you feel? Physically, I'm a little banged up, but I think mentally I'm 19 still. So, you know, sometimes, you know, things hurt, and I don't remember why. And I was like, oh, yeah, I've been doing this for 17 years.

Maybe that's why. But, you know, I've had a great career. I'm really happy with everything I've done. I'm planning on putting everything into this tournament, winning this tournament. I think I'll have one more fight in my contract, and then we'll see how I feel after that. and I might move up to a challenge for an 85-pound belt, and then that'll call it quits. So how many fights would that be if everything worked out to plan?

Including this one, I think four. Still, that's a lot of fighting, man. I mean, I got to finish the tournament, so that's at least three. That's true. You know, so, and if I'm coming off this tournament, champ, and I got money in the bank from 50 cent, Um, why not, why not go, you know, why not go with the, uh, the momentum and just try it. What is the worst injury you've had through all these years? And maybe not from a fight itself.

Maybe just from training. Uh, heartbreak probably. That's a bad one. That's actually legit, man, because that can really just, that can derail everything. But I guess, uh, forget heartbreak for just a moment. Like, uh, had to get sewn up or repaired. physically you know the the shoulder injury a shoulder shoulder surgery was probably the worst because at the end of the surgery the doctor's like oh well we got in there and it looks like we misread the diagnosis we didn't actually have to have surgery and you know i they cleaned up the shoulder and made it clean you know nicer but it wasn't necessary and i still end up losing nine months of my career and uh yeah so i would say that was the worst possible thing. So what's the worst heartbreak? Man, a combination of, you know, I think when I was cut from the UFC, it was heartbreaking.

That was, you know, I think that, and it's a tie with, you know, the divorce I've gone through. Well, I'm sorry to hear about that. As a child of divorced parents, but I've seen it all. So, you know, you'll pull through. I'm certain about that. Oh, I'm already, you know, pulling through a Marty in a good place. It's just, you know, it's, it's a heavy hit and uh you know it's it's it's losing a relationship you put everything into i think you know putting my life into my fighting career i think having that you know stool pulled out from underneath me was was devastating and it caused a lot of negative um a native a series of negative actions uh you know kind of in that career there in that slump and that was a big part of it uh getting around the mental pieces of that and putting myself back together and and uh focusing

on the fighting and why I like fighting and, you know, getting on the things I can control. When you got cut from the UFC, how long did it take before it didn't sting the way it all was may have once stung? Man, a little while. I think it wasn't until after the testosterone incident with Polaris that I was like,

what the hell are you doing? Like, why are you letting this, this thing that happened dictate your life and affect you in such a way that you would lose yourself like this? And, you know, getting myself back to fighting and why I'm fighting and why this is all important to me. And realizing that there are other ways to get to the places I want to be rather than just fighting in the UFC. Now, when you say the testosterone incident with Paul Harris, this was what, 2015, I think, right? And he shredded your... 2014. 14.

And he totally shredded, I believe, your knee, if I'm not mistaken, if it wasn't your ankle. I can't quite recall the detail. Yeah. It didn't... I didn't need any surgery. It partially tore a lot of stuff, but everything held together. You know, but that was, you know, nine-month suspension, rehab, and a lot of self-reflecting in that time period. So what had happened there? I mean, I guess if you're going to be open about it,

had you used testosterone against the rules? Yes, I did. I've talked about this a lot in my shake breaks last year or so. So, you know, I've been open about it to the people who've been paying attention for quite a while. Sorry, man, I got a lot of work to do. I can't keep up with all of them. I know.

I know, yeah, it's a lot to ask everybody to go through. I got like 260 episodes or something up there, so you're not going to go through all of them. But yeah, so like I felt too to a spiral of depression. I was struggling with, you know, my personal family life and finances. I got to a place where, you know, I could see other guys around you. I found out about guys who I had fought who were on TRT, the therapeutic exemptions. I learned about Vitor Belfort's testosterone being covered up and him being allowed to compete anyways.

There are rumors of other guys that are happening to with all. also. And then I was taking a 70% pay cut, at least 70% pay cut from going from the UFC to the World Series of Fighting. So I was thinking, like, why am I holding myself to the standard and making less money and my family struggling? You know, just all kinds of excuses, any kind of excuse to rationalize why it was okay to cheat against a cheater like Polaris. And I had no idea what I was doing. It was pure kind. comedy, me trying to use the shit. I had no idea what I was doing. I didn't even grapple that entire training camp because I was so sore from the injections

because I was doing something wrong. I'm not even sure what I was doing wrong. But yeah, that was probably the stupidest thing and the best thing that ever happened to me. And you still lost. I mean, it didn't really, I'm sure it gave you some physical benefits, but in the end, it didn't result in a win. That's my thing, too, is I don't believe that testosterone. really does anything in a weight class sport, except make you look awesome. I could eat garbage

food and look awesome. And I had the libido of a 19-year-old. But other than that, like, I didn't recover better. I wasn't any stronger. I wasn't any faster. I don't think I was doing enough of it to get those benefits. But I think if you do do enough of it, then you put on weight. And I'm not going to benefit from putting on 15 pounds of muscle. I'm not going to be able to get down to the weight class to be strong and be able to compete like that. So I really didn't feel like it was, I really was confused with what people were doing or, you know, because I was trying to figure this all out online by myself. I'm sure I was probably doing some things wrong.

But, yeah, I don't really see the benefit to it. And I think guys who are using it are using kind of as a crutch. I think it's not the magic pill everybody thinks it is. All right. Let's get to this. I'm sure you've seen it. The fight you're going to be on with Murray McDonald, the main event, Belator 220.

It's going to be on DeZone. I'm a DeZone customer. Me too. Yeah, very good, very good. And Faraz's a hobby, the coach of Roy McDonald. He was interviewed for DeZone in anticipation of this fight. I have to tell you, he did not have nice things to say about you. And which is, okay, some people don't like certain people.

Some people love certain people. But Faraz is typically, I'll just be honest. I've never heard him talk that way about anybody. He did not, he was very upset with you. Did you hear these comments and if so your reaction to them? No, I didn't. People have mentioned me that he said stuff. I don't care.

I don't live my life caring what other people say or think. You're going to go through your life worrying about other people and what they think. You're going to be a loser. You're not going to get far. So I don't care. People can think whatever they want to say. I live my life for me and my family. But I guess the implication is he thinks you had used for many years.

your contention is you had used but just that one fight for Paul Horace, yes? Yeah, that's a short period of time. I broke and I thought I was missing out on something. This will all eventually come out because I've been keeping journals for a long time. I released my first book this December and I put the journals. They're up for everybody to read through in the book. So eventually I'll get to that time period. It'll take me a while to get to those chapters.

But it'll come eventually. So if you end up beating Rory, would you shake Faraz's hand? Yeah, I find I even recognize who he has. I don't pay that much attention to what other people are doing or the sport that much even. I'm just starting to get back into watching fights. When I first started off, I was obsessed and watched every fight. But like over the years, it's just, just something I do now. It's not even really one of my hobbies.

Okay, last thing on this, though, if you had to, and we're just guessing here, I don't know. I've tried to talk to Faraz. He was unavailable, but it is unusual for him to have that level of venom. Why are you? I don't know. Maybe he's scared. He's already creating an excuse for his fighter losing. I don't know. Don't really care. All right. Let's talk about some of the fighter efforts that you have been pushing. I'm very curious to hear about these. Let's start with the Ali Act. Give me an update. Please. Well, we're kind of stuck in the water waiting for government to get going. We get set back every time there's chains up your things going on in the government. We're going to be talking to some more people coming

up pretty soon. Yeah, I just kind of stalled a little bit because we got to get the government wheels turning to get these things done and they've got a lot going on right now. So fair to say, not done but holding pattern? Holding pattern, yeah. It's not done. And it's not going to be done. I mean, this is basic business. Like, why should a business be controlled by an outside entity the way that fighters are controlled by promoters? This eventually will be, you know, changed one way or another. It will be changed. Whether the government has to force promoters into turn, us into employees, which I don't think is going to happen.

And I think it's kind of a bad idea for fighters to want that. You know, the turnover rate is just too high. You're not going to get any benefit out of being a part of a union. That's why we need an encompassing association. That way you can go from promotion and still be covered. You can pay your dues and still be covered that way. But yeah, it's just, it's going to, whether it's two years or 20 years, Sooner or later, things will change.

Just kind of come down to the fighters. He's going to come down to the fighters standing up and be like, all, this is enough. I'm a business. I'm the product. I want better. The political turnover in terms of party control. Obviously, the Republicans still control the Senate. The man who has promoted much of this legislation is Mark Wayne Mullen, who is a Republican

himself, although he has reached across the aisle, I think, to one of the Kennedys as well, who also supports this. So in your judgment, this is not going to be a, function necessarily of whatever political party is in office because there's enough bipartisan support? There's enough bipartisan support, but there are individual actors who can be in place who can put up roll blocks and make things difficult. Like who?

I don't have names, but we couldn't get a vote for our subcommittee hearing because somebody wouldn't bring it up. It got buried under a pile of other bills. So it just got stalled out. Now we have a new house, new leadership in the house. We have another opportunity to get it through and get it to the Senate again. All right. So then let's talk about the lawsuit.

Now, I'm not sure how much you can say about that, but can you give us an update about where things are happening or what's going on? Yeah, right now in the lawsuit, we are about to start the evidentiary hearings, which will happen in, I think, August. So the UFC has their experts that have one story, and then we have our experts that have an another story. And then they also are going to talk with, I believe, Joe Silva. So the judge wants to hear firsthand from both sides and figure out which side is full of ship. Now, I'm trying to understand the future here. Let's say both end up being on a path that's pretty successful. Let's say the lawsuit happens first. How does that change? Again, it would depend on whatever ruling or whatever settlement eventually happened. But I'm wondering,

what do you envision, like when you think of the lawsuit and you think of success, what does that look like? I think the biggest thing is sanctioning bodies. The promoter controlling rank in title is a conflict of interest. It will always be a conflict of interest, and it will be the source of corruption all the way through the sport. Until there's an independent body that can control titles and take that rank away from the promoter and take their ability to take and strip titles, their ability to give

hand out interim titles willy-nilly, you know, they have all the control. So they can, they can say anybody is a top 10 guy. They can, they can take a belt away from anybody. They can pretty much do what they want. And the contracts are take or leave it, because if you don't take the contract, they won't give you the title shot. And then you're buried under their promotional agreement. You can't go anywhere else to fight for another high-level title in order to maximize your value. We don't have a free market as far as. there's how much money you can make. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a glass ceiling on our earnings.

Would a success, let's say it's majorly successful. Would a majorly successful lawsuit invalidate the need for the Ali Act? No, I don't think so because you're always going to need the backstop. The Ali Act is the backstop. Something to back them up against. Look, you cannot do these, these basic things. These basic things are outlawed. They're illegal.

you cannot do them. That way, if they do cross that line, you have a chance to do litigation against them. And that will be a much quicker process than class action lawsuit. How much do you think the fans care about this stuff? How much should they care? I mean, they should because it's a human right.

It's a human right. It's an American right to be an independent business and be able to choose how you run your business. There's, you know, I think that's capitalism. That's America. know, if you are an independent person and you believe in your own personal freedoms, the fighter should be allowed to do as he chooses. You should be able to pick his own career path.

He should be able to take the fights he wants to take. He should be able to fight when he wants to fight as many times as he wants to fight, and he should have an opportunity to earn market value for what he's doing to his body and his brain. I kind of think there's, I think it's kind of like a sociopath to think, oh, well, we're going to force these fighters to fight when we want them to fight. We're going to force them to fight the style that we want them to fight. We're going to give them injuries and brain damage

and we're not going to give them market share of the revenue they earn. I think you're a sociopath if you think that way. Have you been at all dismayed with, I know you're not pro-unionization, but have you been at all dismayed with the failure of the unionization efforts? And here's what I mean by that. It just seems to me that you might compare, Congress to pass this. You might, but that seems like a lot of work could take a long time.

Lawsuit, same thing. In terms of getting the fighters to think of themselves as a mutual, having a mutual set of interests, that's what the union would most likely bring those to bear. And all those efforts have failed. In other words, that more than anything has shown us that there is real difficulty getting them to think about the big picture here. Do you take any, do you agree with that idea? I mean, we've said from the beginning that the union idea will not work. There's no leverage. You have zero leverage.

Your average U.S.E. Fight career is less than one year. Your main event guys, the big money earners, their average career is two and a quarter years. Like, who's paying into what and who's going to benefit from that? You have no power. Are you going to go on strike? Like, you're not even declared as an employee yet. If you sign a promotional agreement and then about agreement and then go on strike,

you'll be sued for breach of contract. You have zero leverage. take it or leave it. We've said from the beginning, and that's why we've butted heads with other people who want to unionize one organization. It's not going to work. You have no leverage.

There's no legal backstop. That's why you need the ALI Act. That's why you need the class action lawsuit to say that these things are not allowed. You're not going to create a bargaining agreement. What leverage do you have to enforce your agreements? Well, if you get certified to be a union, then you could force them to negotiate. That's the idea. I mean, who's,

by law, yes, but like, with the turnover rate so high, like everybody who signs up will be replaced within a year. Yeah, I'm not suggesting it's the best option. I guess what I, here's what I'm trying to get at. It's like, you're telling me that they're not doing it because they have considered the merits of these positions. And candidly, I would tell you, I don't know that that's true. Now, I think you have, and many of your colleagues have. But what I guess I'm getting at is there seems to be something central to their identity that prevents them. The fighters themselves, yeah, I think a lot of them are just waiting for something else to happen.

They don't want to take the risk because the little bit of money they're making right now is better than not making money because a lot of these people come from not having money or if you're fighting in a smaller organization and you're not even making the 10 and 10 or the 20 and 20, like you don't want to go back to one in one and not fighting, you know, once every year and once every two years. Like that's scary. Like, these guys need some income. They need a way to feed themselves in their families.

And they don't want to take that risk. Like, there have been plenty of fighters who've been made examples out of, including myself, including Leslie Smith. You know, the squeaky wheel doesn't get the grease. It's the nail that sticks up, gets the hammer. And people understand that. And they would rather just wait and take things the way they are. And then as you get the younger generation of people coming through, it's like, You're trying to reteach them all over again what's going on.

They don't even really get it. There's a reason why people who are on their way out start making noise is because it takes you that long to start figuring out how bad you're getting screwed. Hmm. That's actually a really good point. Well, I can't wait to see your next fight, John. Bellator 220 Saturday. It's going to be fun.

Old man John Fitch out there fighting the youngings. Right. Old man fish, baby. Well, best of luck, you don't need it. but I really appreciate your time and we'll check in with you periodically because of all your other efforts. So thank you so much, John.

Really appreciate it. Thanks, Lou. Really good talking to you, man. Likewise. There he goes. John Fitch. Okay. Okay.

What to do? Here's what we haven't done. We have not done any tweets. So why don't we do a round of tweets? Let's do that. All right, I got a bunch of Spanish messages on my phone. Let's do it. There's the clock.

As soon as that starts going. There it is. All right. What do you think of Habib's criticism towards the UFC for a lack of promoting past weekends event. And also, do you think Russia could become a second Brazil as a home for the UFC in the future? Yeah, Mexico, I remember the time when everyone's like, Mexico is the new Brazil. Yeah, no, it's not. Russia might be. They have a, it's a, obviously Mexico has a very, very,

regal pass and present in one combative art, but in a combative art that has a relationship to MMA, Samba, also Olympic wrestling, just a natural crossover and judo as well, although judo has some issues with the, with MMA community. It's just a, much better fit and then the amount of, you know, what do you want to call them, military-aged males who are capable and willing and ready to do this kind of thing. It's much more, it's much more of a possible that there'll be the new Brazil. In terms of the lack of promoting, I don't know exactly what he's referencing because I wasn't in St. Petersburg. It wasn't promoted here, but it didn't need to be. So I'm a little bit unclear about what the problem was. Next.

Do you think Alistair Overeem will get another title shot before retirement? Ooh, that's a good question. Um, you know what? I'll say yes. I'll be on the positive side. I will say yes. How about that? Next. Is the loss to Roxy a major setback for Shefchenko?

Yes or no and why? No, it is not a major setback. It's a setback. That much is clear. That was one of those fights going in. It wasn't just fun because it was Shefchenko versus fan favorite Roxanne Motifery. If you had watched Dinna White Tuesday Night Contender Series, Dana White's Tuesday Night Confederate Series.

You would have noticed that Shevchenko had, she was very physically strong, had a very good clinch, obviously strikes well at range, but had a real, just could tell how to have a much more defensively minded ground game. And Roxanne is a little bit more offensively minded. And so you were going to think to yourself, wow, these are, these are,

this is going to be an interesting pairing. And of course, Roxy can strike on the feet too and anything. No, it just tells me that there's just a little bit more seasoning than needs to happen. Remember, her sister lost her, I think either her first or one of her first fights, the Amanda Nunes fight early on, the three-rounder,

early in her UFC career and then bounced back. It does show she has some growth that needs to happen, but in maturation, but no, it's not a major setback. Next. Is Jed Meshew's hot tweets column the best thing in MMA right now? No, it's not. However, Jed is full of crazy opinions,

some of which are crazy, crazy, crazy, and some of them are like crazy like a fox. And so it's worth reading. He had won this past week that was very much worth reading. Next. It's from Jed. Idiot. Why does everyone hate Benzima?

I don't know. The guy has what, either 29 or 30 goals this season in all competitions. He's got what? How many from Madrid? I think 21 or something. He's got second most in all of La Liga. Now, not in the best competitions at all the time. And I got D-Bag in the back saying Benzuma sucks.

All I've ever said was that he wasn't having. having a trash season. He was having a good season, which by any measurement is objectively true. And I've got people being like, no, it doesn't count because he didn't do it against, you know, Iax when it really mattered the most.

Well, that would have been better, but he still had an objectively good season. Not a messy season, but a good one. All right, next. Is Keoggi Hortoguchi the best MMA fighter in the world not under UFC auspices? If not, he's at the very, near the top of the list, man.

He is good. He is a very, very good fighter. Ben Winn is a good fighter, and it didn't have much for him. So I'd have to think more about that, because there could be somebody we don't really know yet, but in terms of, like, established championship caliber fighters, he's up there. You know, Musassi is another one, too.

Next. Ryan Bader, too. With all the MMA talent in the state of Florida, are you surprised by the card they put together for UFC Fort Lauderdale? No. No, I'm not. they used a lot of the other pieces of the Florida talent to go compete on other cards. And they had some injuries.

So it was just a weird turn of events how things went. Next. Just curious, relative to how many pay-per-view shows in a year and given how, given the big stars in each sport compete, what do you think has the most of yours of sales? M. Which sport is the most popular as of 2019? That's, um, God, that's a, probably boxing. That's hard to say. Boxing has bigger names right now.

Canelo is a big name, and obviously some other ones as well. And there's a ton of money being pumped into there, but they're geographically quite different where they're popular and whatnot. So one more, one more. One more. Do you believe Israel-Assina versus Robert Whitaker can sell out the stadium in Sydney? Fits 83,000 people also refer to a stadium, Australia. By themselves, I'm ill.

equipped to answer that question, but if they put a baller co-main event on it, then I do think that they probably could. An Australian person would be much better suited to answer that question, but my hunch is, maybe, maybe. I don't think that if it was just those two and then like a nubs card beneath it, I don't think that would get the job done. But those two and then like, you got, you know, I don't know, let's think about something. When would they fight sometime in the summer or something fall?

man, if you put like, let's just say you put Habib and Dustin and the Komen there yeah, that might do it. That might do it right. I'm spitballing there. So, all right, I think that is it for us. Going to get going a little bit early today. Wow, for once, I don't have to beat feet to the subway stop to make it to my next job.

Keep sending those tweets using the hashtag the MMA hour. Keep calling in 844-866-2468 or email us. The MMA hour at Voxmedia.com. We're off next week. I'm going to be a dad. I'll be back in May. And until then, stay frosty. Don't.