MMA Fighting - Ben Askren Talks Fighter Tax Problems, Unions and Pay Gripes from Jorge Masvidal and Jon Jones

Episode Date: July 3, 2020

MMA Fighting's Damon Martin speaks with former UFC welterweight Ben Askren about fighter pay, Jon Jones and Jorge Masvidal speaking up against the UFC, unionization in MMA, and more.  Follow Damon Martin: @DamonMartin Subscribe: http://goo.gl/dYpsgH Check out our full video catalog: http://goo.gl/u8VvLi Visit our playlists: http://goo.gl/eFhsvM Like MMAF on Facebook: http://goo.gl/uhdg7Z Follow on Twitter: http://goo.gl/nOATUI Read More: http://www.mmafighting.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Damon Martin M.MA fighting here with the great Ben Ascran, Ben. How is everything? You're in Milwaukee, right? I'm talking Milwaukee. Yeah, I'm great. I'm busy. Actually, my next couple days should be pretty easy, but on Monday, Tuesday, we're really busy. Yeah. How is the family and everyone dealing with the quarantine, the lockdown, the COVID stuff up there? How are you guys doing? We haven't been locked down for quite a while here in Wisconsin. I think it was May 13th that we got unlocked down. I hope we opened the wrestling academy's back up on June 1st So to this point it's been going pretty well How are the wrestling Academy is doing You know with everything kind of opening back up

So I know wrestling is kind of in a weird place with everything to happen with COVID With kind of everything being canceled Yeah we're actually busier than ever Pretty wild It's good to hear, good to hear So obviously Ben always good to catch up with you lots to talk about And I want to start here because one thing One of the reasons I reached out to you originally was to talk to you about

the conversations we've been having recently about fighter pay, but then this last weekend, you put out of a tweet that kind of blew up when Mike Perry talked about his taxes. And it's funny, like, I know that sounds like such a deep in the woods conversation for fans, but it is kind of fascinating when you hear a fighter so bluntly talk about, basically he owes taxes or he hasn't paid taxes, and it is a real thing I think fighters need to think about. Absolutely. I'm actually, I think I'm going to try to do a podcast tomorrow. with some type of CPA, I reached, I just put it out on my

Twitter, and I had a handful of really good responses. So I think I'm going to put it out that way. And I think it'll be interesting. Because, you know, honestly, I'm fairly well educated, but obviously there's you know, there are

a whole bunch of questions that I don't know even to the day. Most of the questions I've had, I feel like I've gotten answered over the course of time, but there's still a lot of I think gray area. Yeah. We heard it a few years ago.

Cowboy Soroni brought it up. I want to say like four or five years ago he did a post-fight press conference. I was there. I can't remember what fight it was, but he talked about it where he said that he was basically going to take his bonus and pay off taxes. And it's just like one of those things that were, obviously we all pay taxes, you pay taxes, we all pay taxes. But it's kind of weird. Like that situation has come up several times with fighters. And I feel like it probably has come up more privately than what we're hearing publicly.

well I mean the problem with fighters and I know this happened to me the first sharp in taxes and I was not a fighter I was a wrestler as in wrestling camps it was like you know I didn't pay I didn't pay the estimated taxes quarterly and so when it was time for my year and bill I was like holy shit I know how much you know I wasn't making huge sums of money at that time and I made a decent amount that year and so these fighters are making way more not literally nothing is deducted from from their purse you know when they get a when they get a they make 50 grand they make 50 grand and there's nothing deducted from their first and so you know i'm sure some of these guys who have no idea about the taxes they need to pay they go ahead and spend that 50k

and then you know little as they know they probably owe you know somewhere between 15-20,000 of taxes that by the depending on your state and your income level you know obviously and then independent contractors pay more in taxes because they pay both sides of the, what's it called? You don't tell you about it. Yeah, I do. Yeah, yeah. Both sides of the 14, I think it's 14.2%. You know, when you're employed, your employer pays half of that.

But if your independent contract, you pay both sides of that on the first $120,000 or so. And so you're talking about 7% of $120,000. That's like an extra $9,000 in taxes you're paying. that normal people don't pay. Yeah. And fighters get paid in one lump sum. So if you're getting, let's say two fights a year, that's, you know, two to three fights a year is average.

And you get a $50,000 paycheck once, and you get a second $50,000 paycheck. You know, maybe you're feeling good. I made $100,000. That's not bad money. But when you start taking out taxes or you haven't taken out taxes and that bill comes in April or in this case July, it adds up quickly, man.

And you don't realize how much you're going to owe if you don't actually take it out right away. Yeah, especially, you know, well, obviously, if you're in a lower income tax bracket, if you said one year, you know, you maybe you make $40,000, right? You're in a very low income tax bracket, and you probably have a lot of write-off to cover that. But then say next year you get a new contract, or maybe you get a knock on a night bonus, and you make $150 instead of the 30 that you made the year previous, well, damn, that's going to be a whole lot of taxes because you're in a whole new income bracket now.

Yeah, absolutely. So let me ask you, Ben, is a guy who has been always a person I've taken, I remember one of the first times I met you, you know, we talked about after the Olympics. Like, you were a guy who always seemed going to have your head in the business aspect of your career. Obviously, it was always about accomplishing great things and doing great things for your athletic career. But you were, you understood there was a business side of it. What is the best advice you could offer to fighters in these situations? Because, again, I feel like there's going to be more of these coming up or guys who haven't talked about it publicly. but I guarantee you, there are guys who are dealing the same thing. Yeah, John Jones had a tax lien on him. Soronics had a tax lien on them. There's been James Tony had a tax lien on him, but it's not totally new. I didn't maybe they have tax clean on him even at one point in time. I think so.

I think he did. So, yeah, this is not a brand new thing whatsoever. I would say that, you know, just hired people who actually had your best financial interest in mind. and that's, you know, that's, that's kind of hard to find sometimes. Yeah, yeah. And obviously I think you have at least a basic amount of information yourself so you don't take advantage of.

Yeah, at worst, find yourself a good accountant. That's like at the very worst, find yourself a good accountant. Yeah, but you got to be able to trust him, right? Yeah, that's true. Yeah, that's true. So all the stories about Mike Tyson when he was in his prime and how, you know, he had really bad handlers that took enormous sums of his money. Yeah.

We talk about fighter pay, and that was one of the other conversations I want to talk to you about, because right now we're having a big conversation about that. And I talked to Curtis Blades a couple of days ago, and we were talking about what guys, like a Dan Hooker made for us right with Justin Pori. I think he made $110,000. I don't want to miss quote. I think it's right around that. And Curtis was like, but when you take out taxes, you take out trainer fees, you take out gym fees, you take out manager fees, all those things. Like you may make $6 or $70,000, all the end, again, taxes, things like that.

Like, I think when the conversation comes down to fighter pay, we also got to think about all the things you're paying out on top of what you're actually getting paid or what we see publicly. Yeah, I mean, that's definitely. But so, you know, I see it multiple ways. I see it as, hey, if you're a fighter, you should know these things

and you should know what you're getting into and you should know that, listen, there's only a really, really small, very small percentage who make a decent living off their fighting, and there's a whole bunch of people who are at the poverty line. Even guys who make it who do you,

a lot of them are at the poverty line. And so, you know, no, have that in mind. Now, there's a separate conversation to be had about should fighters be paid more, right? And for that, I think, right, unless everyone collectively bargains, that's probably not going to happen because no, Dana doesn't want to be paying money. He doesn't have to be paying. And the only way of a collective, sometimes collecting bargaining would happen would be of a whole bunch of, of very large-named fighters could, you know, sit out together for an extended period of time, which we're kind of seeing a few people do that.

But then it's like how long can they actually last, right? Can they last 12 months? Can they last 18 months? Because most fighters, like, we're talking about fighters don't get attached, is how many fighters have a 12 to 18-month reserve where they could just sit out and not worry about it? You know, I mean, and the answer to that is probably very, very few, even on the high. Yeah. Well, a lot of people have talked about, you know, George Mazzadol and John Jones, too, kind of high-profile guys bringing it up. But we've seen this before. There have been high-profile guys, you know, complain about pay and bring it up publicly. And eventually, you know, maybe they do get whatever they're happy with and then they kind of go away. And that's kind of the problem with the fighter union or the collective marketing thing is, you know, if, you know, those bigger name guys are the guys who have to, you know, kind of step up and take their and take that place. But we just haven't seen it. And I don't. know that it'll ever happen to be honest with you.

Yeah, because at the end of the day, you care most about yourself, right? That's just human nature that you just care most about yourself. And so, you know, if you actually have the much power, here's the deal. Dana's fine and give you what you want so you shut the hell up. And that way you don't have to worry about everybody else, you know? So it would take someone like a Connor and a John Jones and a few other people. And if Dana gives those guys what they want, do they really, really genuinely care enough but other people to sit out

because they're the only ones that can force the U.S. his hand. They're literally it. Yeah. And as you said, there's a handful of guys, you know, Connor and a few others who could legitimately, you know, quit today and live the rest of their lives of what they already have in the bank. And we've got to be honest about that. Connor talked about how wealthy he is, but I don't know that that's even the truth.

I mean, we talk about a guy like Floyd Mayweather who made way more money than Connor did. Is Connor really that smart with his money? I mean, that's what he tries to put out there. but I don't know. Maybe it's the truth. Maybe it's not. I'm not sure.

Yeah. Well, and like I said, there's a, you know, because I think across the board, I think we can agree that fighters are generally underpaid based on the revenue we're seeing from the UFC in other organizations, or at least the UFC, I won't speak for Bellator or any other organization, but we know what the UFC, at least publicly,

has been disclosed to what they've made in revenue, and obviously the fighters are not getting a huge percentage of that, so I think there is a gripe to be made there. But will what's happening right now fundamentally change the sport? I just don't think it will. Yeah, I don't think so. I think there's a, it has to be, you know, a bunch of people who get together on it, and I don't think we're all that close to that.

Yeah, I think we're in a space now where it's like what happened with Mazadol. He didn't want to take the Uzman fight for less money. And I'm not faulting Gilbert Burns for taking the opportunity. I'm sure what Gilbert Burns is getting paid is probably a lot of money to him. You know what I mean? Like, he's probably, wow. Yeah, for Gilbert Burns because Gilbert Burns was making like 60 and 60 last year. Yeah. So, like, he stepped up and took it, and there you go, right there.

Mazinahel didn't get it. Burn steps right in. Yeah, and that's the thing that I was talking about with, you know, people say, especially on the lower end of UFC fighters, like, how many professional mixed martial artists are around the country right now that would love to earn 10 in 10 and have a UFC tag next to their name? And the answer is a thousand. Literally, there are thousands. So on the low end, those guys will never have negotiating power against the UFC because they can very, very easily be replaced. Yeah, yeah. Now, you and your career, again, you were very smart. You had businesses outside the UFC.

I mean, how did you balance that? Because obviously, you wanted to achieve your goals, but you also wanted to get paid for what you were worth. Well, and I think as an adult, you also have to lose up your future because otherwise you get caught in this trap where you can literally never leave. Right? because if you're used to making X amount, say $200,000 a fight, and that's, you know, that's the guy who's getting paid very well. So you think $200,000 a fight,

and they have no external income, right? They don't develop any skills. And they step away from that $200,000 to fight, which is, say, let's say, let's say that's resulting in half a million a year. And they get used to living on half a million dollars a year, and they don't save up and say, hey, I, you know, I gave myself a three to five-year window, right, a runway where I can grow my businesses and everything else,

but to where I could live very comfortable without having to tighten the belt, you know? Yeah. And so give yourself a runway and have other things that you're doing. And, you know, and that's kind of how I think they have to think about it. Yeah, I can't. I mean, I made probably close to a million dollars last year when you include everything. I'm not going to make that anytime soon. But, you know, I feel like I made the right investments and I saved enough of it to where

I have a runway where I'm being pretty good living. and I'm going to continue to develop my business and grow other things I'm doing as well. Yeah, and investing wisely in other things because you see it now, you know, like I talked to Daniel Cormier, and he said, you know, the reason I can walk away is because, you know, I do have other things going on. I have other things in my life to keep my attention, but also other things to pay me and make money. And obviously, there's only so many UFC commentary jobs out there, but there's other avenues. I know you're big into cryptocurrency.

Like that's, like, whatever it is, find something to invest for money, and because, again, fighting can't last forever. but unfortunately, and you know as well as I do, Ben, the amount of guys who retire and come back, it's a huge list of guys who don't stay retired in this sport. Do not, yeah, I mean, and not just investments,

but literally, find other skills because even if you have enough money, you're going to need to do something, or you're going to be bored as shit. Right? Literally find another skill, find another job going to, find a hobby, find something you're passionate about. And use your notary.

that you have while you're fighting to to help develop that business or that hobby or whatever it is. Yeah. But when you look at a guy like George, you look at a guy like John Jones, like as a guy from the outside looking in, but also as a guy who's been there, do you believe in your head, like, yes, they are underpaid right now and they have a valid right for why they're upset? George is the, George would be more fatable, right? I mean, yes, he did get very popular because of our fight. And I mean, but his pay, so I don't know. I don't know what his contract has.

He got a gigantic pay bump. I mean, like, we're talking 2,000 percent from my fight versus him to the next one, which is an ADIUS fight, right? I think he made $2 million for that fight or something, which is, I want to make around $200,000 for our fight somewhere in that avenue. And so, you know, that would be one where it's like, can he be a sustainable, sustainable star for them? And that is, I don't know.

John Jones obviously has been a star for a long time. I don't have any idea what John Jones is really getting paid. So I don't want to comment that whether he's underpaid. I don't know what it is. Obviously, he's standing out for a reason. John Jones feels as though he's ever paid. But without knowing, actually, what he's getting paid, I'm not going to go ahead and say he's underpaid because I have no idea.

Yeah. Yeah, it's a weird thing because, like I said, I think everyone would like to make more money, but will, as I keep going back this, will it fundamentally change? I don't know that it ever will. Yeah. Before I let you go,

man, I was watching your podcast the other day and I saw I mentioned the cryptocurrency thing you had that Ben Mezric on man. I'm such a huge fan of his. I didn't know you had him on. I saw him the other day and I was like, oh, wow, that's really cool. Ben Mezric is such a smart dude. He wrote for the show Billions this year, which is the show I love. And I saw

he was on your podcast and that was really cool. Yeah, I mean, so I kind of, so I read his book Bitcoin Billionaires and I had also known that he obviously wrote the social network. I'm sorry, that was the name of the movie. The name of the book was actually no billionaires.

So I knew he did those two. I totally didn't even realize that he had written the book, bringing down the house, which was then made in the movie 21, which that inspired me to count cards. So it was like all these things. I'm like, oh, my gosh,

I'm a huge fan of this guy. Yeah, and then we got the interview him, and we talked about billions, which is the show I watch. And, man, he was awesome. He told some really great stories. And, yeah, so it's been fun doing the funky crypto podcast.

We've been able to attract a whole bunch of big names and just really, really fascinating, smart, interesting personalities that we get to talk to every week. It's awesome. Yeah, it's funny you say that. When you get down in fighting, you've got to find other things to do. And I feel like you're busier now or as busy now as you ever were during your fight career. I feel like I'm putting all my effort into, you know, social media, media and business stuff.

Whereas, you know, before, I was more worried about training and that type of stuff. Yeah. Last thing before I get you had to have been, I know. I think I saw on Twitter you answered somebody, maybe it was a few weeks ago, about your hip surgery. Are you still doing that this year? I know everything's kind of been thrown off with the whole COVID thing. Are you still doing that this year? I'm near September 1st.

Okay, cool, cool. Well, Ben, I always appreciate you taking... I'm that's doing in Ohio, too. I'm doing Cleveland. Oh, you are? Okay. Oh, very cool. Very cool.

Well, I... Very cool. Very cool. Yeah, I know that's... I've been there before. It's a great... I'm not a doctor, but I know it's a great facility. Obviously, a huge place.

I went up there at the... the UFC a few years ago when they were doing their concussion study up there. Oh, nice. Yeah, that's cool. Very cool. Well, Ben, I always appreciate the time. I'm glad you're doing well. Always appreciate you taking the time to catch up, man.

And, like I said, glad you and the family are doing well with all the craziness that's going on. And hopefully we can catch up again soon. Yep. Have a great day, Damon. Thank you. All right, Ben. Talk to you soon, buddy. Peace.