MMA Fighting - Between the Links: Dustin Poirier KOs Conor McGregor, Michael Chandler's Stellar Debut, Ben Askren vs. Jake Paul

Episode Date: January 29, 2021

Mike Heck hosts the BTL championship rematch between Steven Marrocco and Jed Meshew to discuss the fallout of Dustin Poirier's KO win over Conor McGregor in the main event of UFC 257, Michael Chandler's sensational introduction to the UFC in the co-main event, the unsung heroes coming out of the first UFC PPV of 2021, reaction to the upcoming boxing match between Ben Askren and Jake Paul, and more. Follow Mike Heck: @MikeHeck_JR Follow Jed Meshew: @JedKMeshew Follow Steven Marrocco: @MMAFightingSM Subscribe: http://goo.gl/dYpsgH Check out our full video catalog: http://goo.gl/u8VvLi Visit our playlists: http://goo.gl/eFhsvM Like MMAF on Facebook: http://goo.gl/uhdg7Z Follow on Twitter: http://goo.gl/nOATUI Read More: http://www.mmafighting.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. Live from MMA Fighting Studios, this is Between the Links. And now, your host, Mom! And the iconic voice of Esther Lynn welcomes you to a brand new edition of Between the Links and My Oh My. So much to discuss this week on the program. If you're joining us live, thank you very much. We'd be looking to you for guidance throughout the show. so as these rounds go on, if you're leaning a certain way,

if one person's takes, we're more fiery than the other. Let us know in the chat. But UFC 257 is in the books. The UFC's first trip to Fight Island of 2021 is in the books. So much to get to. We're not going to waste any more time whatsoever. So let us introduce the combatants first. He comes in as the challenger this week.

He lost a pretty tight one on the last show, but he gets the immediate rematch from MMAFighting.com, the multi-time champion, the only man with double-digit wins in between the links history, Mr. Jedd Mishu. Welcome back, my friend. It's good to be back. You know, it's been so long since last we spoke, Mike. It feels like a lifetime.

I'm glad to have finally, you know, I'm coming in with the Challenger mantle again. It's good. I need that. I need that inspiration. I don't want to be a common of record. You know, those silk sheets just got to me from being on top too much, and so now I'm back. And this time you're going to see the real.

All right, as we introduce the brand new reigning BTL champion making his first title defense, the deputy editor for MMAFighting.com looking to make it two for two against Jed Mishu. That rhymed totally by accident. But he is Stephen Morocco. Hello, champ. How are you? Since Jed did the finger guns, I'm going to do the who has two thumbs in one last week. That's me over here, Stephen Morocco.

Anyways, yeah, I'm into this, ready to put Jed behind me and move on with my life to a better one, hopefully. Oh, God. I mean, it hurts, but it's probably true. Well, let us get right into this gentleman. On Saturday night, the UFC put on their first pay-per-view event of 2021. It was UFC 257. It was a huge event. Some got to watch the whole thing.

Others, like Stephen Morocco, did not get to watch the whole thing. thing, but in the end, Dustin Porreier walks into Eddie Hatt Arena, a man looking to avenge a loss from over six years ago, and he walks out as the only man to put away Connor McGregor via strikes. He puts the former champ champ away in the second round. What a performance from the diamond. So Jed Mishu, we're going to begin with you. Most people believed that if this fight ends early, it's a Connor McGregor win. If it goes deep, this is Dustin Porier's fight to lose.

It did not end up that way at all. So before we get into what all this means, how did you react to Porre's big win on Saturday and how he was able to pull it off? I mean, I'm a professional, so I stood up out of my chair and screamed, hallelujah. I mean, look, I picked Porier to win.

We're going to get into that a little bit more, and a guy who two weeks ago was like, oh, Dustin Poria, it gets hit too much. Somebody was very wrong there, and I got the receipts on that. But I thought Poria was going to win. I didn't think he was going to win like, that, I mean, there's always the opportunity that he could have kind of taken over as the fight grew on and Connor got a little more tired.

But, I mean, I just didn't think he was going to knock Connor out in the second round and certainly not as emphatically as he did. I mean, you know, that say what you want about, oh, well, Connor got tired. Connor got slept. Like, he was out, out from that follow-up shot on the ground. And that's the first time we've ever seen that happen. Connor's always had a really good chin. And so I, it was awesome. There is literally not a person in this sport who deserves a win that big more.

And probably not a person in this sport who deserves a loss that big more. I mean, it was, it was great. The whole trip to fight island, we had Max Holloway, Mike and Dustin Poy, they all win. They're like three of the good dudes in this sport and they won. I don't know what 2020 is about or 2021 is about, but it's great so far. Wow. first air horn already, and we're not even through the beginning of the first question. But what about you, Stephen? Because Dessa Poyer, great game plan. I thought the takedown right off the bat was massive.

It set up a lot of things in the second round. Of course, the light kicks at it up before he knocks Connor out and gets the biggest win of his career. What did you make of Dustin's performance, kind of a star-making showing on Saturday night? Well, I had a restrained reaction because I'm also a professional. It didn't lose my control as Jet is out to do. But my first thought was, wow, you know, obviously that I didn't see that coming. I usually, as a matter of course, like if there's no huge age disparity, I tend to pick the guy who won last time as a one to win in the rematch because that's often how it goes in my experience. But the next thought I had after that was, well, it's kind of not all downhill from here for Connor, but it's like a rocky road. trending downwards. You know, first knockout victory is never a good first stat in this sport.

And, you know, given that he's at the top, he's a huge name. He makes a lot of money. The matchups and the potential problems only magnify as he keeps going. So it was kind of another, I mean, the mystique, you know, of him being undefeated wasn't really, it had already been broken long before he was. he met Dustin the second time. But to get beaten in the way that he did, it shows that a lot of these things.

I mean, for me, it was like he got nailed by Khabib in the fight and ended up with an overhand. And he's been hurt before, obviously, by Floyd. These things typically don't trend the opposite way. Dustin is a huge exception to that rule, obviously, because he has been around forever. He's been in a lot of wars. and he was able to rebound in a way that was just spectacular.

But I also think, as I've said before, that he had a lot more fluid in his brain. He did take a hard left hand from Connor in that first round. He took that fold of the face. And I'm not saying it's the only reason, but it certainly was, I think, a huge contributing factor, the fact that he had, you know, more weight, more fluid in his brain, more ability to take that shot and then come back with the ones that ultimately ended the fight. He's a great boxer, and he put those skills to use. So coming out of this event, there's really been two narratives.

One was, this is a brilliant game plan from Dustin Porre, Mike Brown, and the coaching staff at ATT. The improvement showed it a big way, and Dustin did the damn thing. The other, which I've seen a lot, is Connor was rusty, he didn't show up, he wasn't himself, the layoff affected him, ring rust is real and so forth and so on. So I'm curious, Stephen, coming out of this fight, in your mind, what was more impactful in the aftermath? Porre in a win, performing the way that he did, or is the bigger story McGregor losing and getting stopped?

Well, I'm just talking from a perspective of like the impact on our website, the impact on web traffic, you know, the story that came out from Nielsen Sports yesterday of the day before, the impact of Connor McGregor losing was far bigger than Dustin's win. And if you look at all the metrics that were put out in the wake of that event, it clearly a much bigger deal that Connor lost than Dustin won. And that's because, you know, as it was said, Connor has kind of transcended the sport.

Whether he loses or whether he wins, you want to see him fight. Now, is he as big of a star as before, you know, will the knockout loss affect his long-term viability, of course, but in a sense, it doesn't matter. Like, he's going to be a big star as long as he, you know, has the four-ounce gloves on. So I think clearly, Dustin Poillet being a good guy, I mean, it kind of reminds me of Evander Holyfield a little bit. I was, I'm saying just because of recency bias, and I just watched the documentary between him and Mike Tyson.

But Evander Holyfield, great fighter, you know, climb the mountain a number of times, a terrible interview, good guy, and always kind of struggled, you know, to get that sort of critical mass. We like, in combat sports, we like Nate Diaz of the world and the Connem of Regers of the world. And if you're anything short of that, it's not going to be as easy for you to shape the narrative. That's interesting. So Jed, kind of building on that point, we saw what happened with Nate Diaz, gets the big rub from beating Connor, even in the loss at UFC 202 a few months later, still became an even bigger star coming out of that fight.

And the star just continued to grow from there, whether he fights or not. So in terms of star power, potential drawing ability, so forth and so on, do you feel like Porey has or will get the same kind of rub after this performance, or does he still have some more work to do on that end based on what Stephen just said?

I mean, he's going to get a little bit of a bump because more eyeballs, him than ever before. But to me, this has always been a really clear thing that I think everybody implicitly knows, but we like trick ourselves in the forgetting. You can't make stars. Like, people have it or they don't. And it is a really difficult thing to quantify or kind of state. But I mean, if you look at Connor's fights, it, he got, Habib and Nate Diaz got big bumps there. And they beat Connor, certainly. But they also just, they were their own entity before. They had their own gravity. Nate Diaz was a cult kind of hero, and then he got launched into the

stratosphere because he beat a huge name, and everybody else got to see that and kind of internalize that cult hero status and fall in love with it as well. Similar with Abed, I mean, Dustin Poir is just not going to get that kind of a kick. This employee is a phenomenal person. He is doing great things with his platform, and he will get a bit of a boost here because of this. but I don't think we're going to look back and say, oh, this is the night that Dustin Poetier became a star. It's just not. It's not really fair.

It's unfortunate that life kind of works like that. But I also think that that touches back on what we started talking about, was this more of a Poirier win or a McGregor loss. And I think from an X's and O standpoint, you can make an argument either side of it. But like Stephen was saying, the fallout is very clearly, this is a McGregor loss. I mean, the way I always judge stuff like this is the casual fan or the people who don't care about fighting texting me asking.

That's always like, oh, yeah, that's going to be a big fight card if somebody asked me about it. And I got a ton of questions in the last few days. So Connor's done, right? Like, is he just going to keep getting the paycheck or is he, but he's out? You know, they don't understand who Dustin Boyer is. And I can explain to them that, well, realistically, as much as we want to back on Connor, I know the feeling it's great. His two losses in the last little bit here have been to the two best lightweights of this era, which I think we can definitively say Dustin Poitier is at this point.

I know Tony Ferguson fans aren't come out of the woodwork, but I think Poyer would have beaten Tony any of these last few years, and I think watching his last couple performance kind of has proved positive of that. So, I mean, from one stance, you know, Connor lost to the two best guys in the division, but really this is the least explainable of his losses. I wrote about it right after the fight. you know the Habib lost he lost to the goat you can kind of write that one off and Nate was on shut short notice that you can also write that off he avenged it again but with this one this is a

guy already knocked out he knocked him out 90 seconds and now he gets bolted by him like it's really not explainable and at least to the masses it it certainly looks like oh this guy's just done and I think as a result of that that diminishes even whatever pop poixier might have gotten is diminished further by the fact that this just the appearances whether they're true or not certainly are that McGregor is losing it not. Poir is that dude. All right. So last thing on this because there's been a popular topic. We're going to get into like the shaping of this division in the next round. But a lot of people believe Jed will start with you that Dustin Poirier right the second, if not right the second before he fights next, the UFC should just give him the title. He should be the lightweight

champion, shouldn't have to fight again to be the champion. Do you agree with that? Should Dustin just be awarded the title or do you think he needs one more win? No. You shouldn't give anybody the title. The only time anybody ever should have been given the title, they should have given, then they did. They gave Jose Aldo the featherweight title because he was the WBC featherweight champion and when they folded that division in, which by the way, Aldo, youngest champion in Zuma history. We never talk about it. It's not John Jones. I don't care what you say. It's Jose though. But that's the only time you should kind of give somebody a title like that. You've got to make them fight for it. I think that everybody is now just retroactively wishing the UFC hadn't, wishing Dana White pulled his head out of his ass, really, because everybody knew it was coming. Nobody in their right mind thought Habib was actually fighting again, regardless of how impressive anybody was. So, like, that should have just been for the belt or for the interim belt. And then, okay, it's an interim title. There was really no good reason that it wasn't for an interim title, frankly. you just make it for an interim title,

and then you can make him the champion, because I agree, he is the best lightweight on earth that is not named Tabib Nirmagamatov, and Habib is not going to fight again, which de facto should make him the title holder in the UFC, but giving him the title after he wins feels real scummy, so he's going to have to fight somebody to get it.

And knock on wood, because I wrote about this after the fight too, like I hope that he gets it. I hope that the next fight, nothing bad like happens. And he has comically denied his right to hold the undisputed title because the man friggin deserves it. And the only reason he doesn't have it is because Dana couldn't pull his head out of his ass. What do you think, Stephen?

Should just give Dustin the belt? Maybe gives him a little bit of a rub too, maybe more of a rub. He's the champion already. A lot of people already feel this way. And people say, well, there's no precedent in just handing a title like this. You know, for a guy who wins a non-title main event, Dustin didn't make a job. weight, so forth and so like championship weight. He was 156, but you can't create precedence without doing something first.

So should they have just given Porya the belt? Since when is UFC honored precedent? Let's let's be frank here. I think sure you could give it to him, you know, for all the WWE people, maybe we could work out some sort of angle where like Habib like appears backstage and like has a heart attack and gives it to Dustin and his and with his dying breath or something like that but you know absent of that we can't put the hayback in the barn you know it's it didn't happen this last time out so dustin's got to fight someone for it and that's fine you know as i figure

as long as he's fighting for it uh he's earned it he's the number one guy uh short of kubb um the question now is whether they go the the money the money route the cash grabbing route or they do some sort of you know, thing, another sort of cash grab like, you know, Diaz, putting the Diaz fight together. I think from a sporting perspective, I think that you give, you do Chandler and Olivera, and they fight for the right to fight Dustin. And by the time that sort of works itself out, Dustin will be healthy and ready to go and you can have that title about whoever wins that is the best

lightweight All right we will chime in more on the matchmaking because I know a lot of people are talking about that right now where this division may go because it's a fascinating story but the point for round one goes to Jedmishu, the challenger, is on the board

excellent first round but Stephen don't get down this is how last week started to and then you emerged victorious. So there we have it. Like Ronald Greger, I'm a quick starter. So let's talk more about UFC 250.

Let's talk about the lightweight division. Let's first start with the co-main event. Michael Chandler makes his highly anticipated UFC debut. We waited, it seemed like forever for it. It wasn't actually that long, but he comes to the octagon, like my seven-year-old came downstairs on Christmas morning. He was happy as anything. He was frolicing, big smile in his face, and he goes in there and he knocks Dan Hooker out with essentially the first punch to the head that he landed in the fight, and he puts him away halfway through the first round. On top of that, he jumps on the microphone,

and is like Rick Flair after he wins the 1992 Royal Rumble. He starts calling out everybody, excellent promo, and calls out Connor. He calls out Habib, makes his present spell. So, Stephen, we're going to begin with you. Considering what was at stake in this fight, the doubters, the naysayers, the folks saying, well, this Chandler guy came over from the B-leagues,

what did you make of his performance? Could this have gone any better? I mean, obviously not. Maybe, you know, it could have taken place over the time of seven seconds, you know, or 20 seconds or something like that. It could have been done faster. But no, it was obviously a great performance. It did exactly what he needed to do.

Proved that it was worth putting him in the fight in the first place. So that's all well and good. I guess when you asked me this, when you put this question to me earlier, I was thinking about how we define debuts. Like, why is this the best debut? Is it like the best debut of somebody who was a champion in another organization

or was a known commodity and had a UFC debut? Or was it the best debut overall? Because there are so many different examples that you can cite throughout UFC history of great debuts. Like there's just so many of them. Like, you know, Ryan Jimmo or Glover to Chera, you know, just, I mean, there's so many guys that came in and just blew the doors off of their opponents. So, I mean, you can put it in the context of, you know, what happened in UFC 257 in the co-men event, and you can give him that. But I tend to, like, agree with AK's take, Alexander Lee's take on the Great Divide when you're talking about like for cultural.

significance and actual like impact. I would go with like a Ronda Rousey as far as who I'd pick is the best. And that's just because, you know, she was breaking the glass ceiling, you know, elevating the sport, making the debut for women in such, on such a huge stage and delivering in such a huge way. And also, the fight was more of a back and forth. This fight between Chandler and Hooker was a contest where Chandler really showed up and Hooker kind of didn't. He was very tentative and didn't take his shots and he wound up back against the cage and knocked out. Whereas you look at a performance like Ronda's, she actually gave up her back. Liz almost had her in a choke. She reversed that and then got the arm bar that she always gets. So if we're thinking about

known commodities making debuts. I agree with Jed that Anderson Silva's was amazing. But as far as two-way traffic and what makes a great fight, in addition to the stage that it's on, I would actually think that Ronda Rousey would win this one. Jed, I definitely want to get your take on where this ranks in the all-time debut list. Dana White thinks this is number one, or at least in the conversation. So I do want to get your take on that.

In addition, you have been on this very program and on the website. you've been pretty vocal about Michael Chandler saying that essentially I don't want to put words in your mouth he's a bit outmatched he's a bit outmatched compared to a lot of these guys at the top of this division and let's just say you haven't been very high on him since making his way over from Bellator to the UFC so where does this rank in all-time debuts and in addition did Saturday change anything in your eyes based on what he did in this fight with Dan Hooker there's a lot to impact there first I just want to say props to Stephen because really didn't think we were going to get a Ryan Jimmo reference.

Good, good on for that. Look, I wrote about this, Stephen referenced it. Me and A.K. Lee wrote about it for the site. It came out today about who had the best debut. I think there's a good argument for Ronda Rousey for sort of all those reasons that Stephen addressed there. You know, hers meant the most, certainly. I think that's inarguable. Her debut meant more than anybody else's

and kind of what transpired after that matters a lot. But for me, I picked Anderson Silva, and I still think that holds true. And just kind of go read the piece because it's great. I think Alexander Cayley's arguments are great. I'm obviously fantastic. But kind of the short version of mine here, my argument there is, one,

Chandler's debut is impressive, but it's impressive in a very narrow way. it was a one-punch knockout. If they fought 10 times, maybe Chandler does beat him more often than not. But you can kind of write that off a little bit to, well, it was the first punch he landed. Whereas Anderson Silva fought Chris Lee,

he'd been a guy who at the time was really well respected and very respected for being incredibly durable, and he literally fought a perfect fight. He missed, I think, two punches the whole fight and had one landed on him in return. And I mean, going into that fight, another thing that kind of people forget is people didn't know who Anderson was or at least they knew him to an extent. But it was not a guarantee that he was fighting for the title next. It was, you know, this fight could set up the next guy for Rich Franklin, but it was by no means a foregone conclusion.

And after 49 seconds, it was a foregone conclusion. And kind of for me, the big thing, I think what is an argument that really stands in favor of both Rausie and Silva and against Chandler here is debuts, debuts really matter in context. Ryan Jimmo is actually a really good example because Ryan Jimmo was a champion in another organization with a gaudy record had a seven-second KO in his debut. If he had gone on to become the light heavyweight champion, that debut looks tremendous in hindsight.

But instead, he lost a bunch, and now he's Ryan Jimmo, and he's a joke that I just made. Same thing, Ben Ascreen's debut. Too soon. Okay. It may be. Too soon he retired. like five years ago.

Like Ben Astrid on paper had a really good debut choking out Robbie Lawler. And then he got bolted in five seconds and now he's an afterthought. I mean, it's unfair a little bit, but you can't judge the debut purely on what happened this weekend. Because if Chandler goes on to be the lightweight champion and drag Habib out of retirement and then beat Habib, his debut rockets up the list. But if he's the next Will Brooks, then we're not going to remember this day. debut. And kind of to get in, just to wrap it up by getting to your point here, I have been vocally against Michael Chandler. I have maintained everything that I said. I think that he's a good fighter, not a great lightweight. I personally think that that fight had as much to do with Dan Hooker

looking like he had wanted no part of that fight. But I can't pretend like this has been a great, great week for me. Like I was very vocally wrong and I'm having to eat my crow and that's fine. But I still, I mean, if you think Michael Chandler is one of the three best lightweights, then you actually think he's one of the four best lightweights because he got knocked out by a featherweight like a year and a half ago. And maybe that's true. It's just not something I've thought is the case.

But I'm at least having to reconsider it because he killed Dan Hooker. which makes me really sad, but it was okay because I didn't have to be sad that long because Dustin Poy had knocked out Connor. And so everything's pretty good right now. RIP, Ryan Jimo. Thank you, for you. Yikes. All right.

Well, let us awkwardly transition to where this gets very interesting because there is still no lightweight champion after all of this. And like Jed said earlier, Habib, he ain't coming back. Not now. maybe, maybe down the line. I don't see it happening, but he's definitely not coming back now. He's not in this conversation,

despite what Dana White has been trying to say and did so on ABC television, for God's sake. So Chandler did his thing, wants a title shot. Porre, who is definitely in the title mix, absolutely no-sells Michael Chandler at the press conference, says he doesn't deserve it. He likes the idea of a McGregor trilogy. He likes the idea of a Nate Diaz matchup.

Basically, he's down for anything else besides Michael Chandler. So Jed, let us begin with you because there's a big difference in what will happen and what should happen. And I think everybody knows this. So for the sake of this program, Sean Shelby is fired as the UFC matchmaker. You are now the man who will make this decision. So you have the mighty pen. How are you mapping out this division now? Who gets the title fight?

Where does Chandler and McGregor fit in? What do we do? First, shout-outs to Justin Portier, because the only thing better than that, than knocking out Connor McGregor is after you knock out Connor McGregor, no selling Michael Chandler. Really, he could not have done better this weekend from my eyes. I loved every minute of that. This is pretty straightforward.

Actually, I don't think what I would do is not what's going to happen, and arguably what I would do is not what should happen. If I had the power of the pin here, I'm doing Dustin Poirier versus Justin Gagee. They're rematching for the title. They're the number one and two guys in the division. It's the fight I thought they should have made instead of this Poyer McGregor fight in the first place. That was the fight that made sense to me because I never thought Habib was coming back, so just do that. You put the number one and the number two guy against each other, and you have your new lightweight champion.

Their first fight was fight of the year. Like, nothing bad comes from that. I think what's actually going to end up happening is the cleanest lines to draw here are doing Poyer versus Olivera. Poet seems amenable to that idea. and then doing Chandler Gachey and the winner of Chandler Gachey fights the winner of Poeta-A-A-A-A-A-A-Livera. My guess is that Poe-A-A-A-A-A-Levera is for the title and not part of a tournament,

but, I mean, functionally, you end up having a lightweight Grand Prix there with the top four guys in Division. I think that's what's going to happen, and that probably is what should happen. It's just not what I do because I want to see Dustin Poyer in Justin Poyer and Justice Gachie fight again. Like, that's all I want to see.

I want that one again. Steven, you sort of touched on this already, but kind of throwing in where Chandler and McGregor and maybe some others fit into this equation. There's, again, what should happen and there's what will happen. There seems to be a lot of people believing that maybe they just run it back, do McGregor versus Porre for the title. And this trilogy the way that it is. I don't love that idea, but I don't feel like this trilogy is the same as the Diaz trilogy. You could do the Diaz third fight any time you want, and it's relevant. I feel like if you don't do

McGregor Porre now, you may not ever get it again. That's the only reason why I don't like this idea at all, but I understand why people believe this could happen. So mapping out this lightweight division, what do you see happening with all the major parties involved here? Yeah. Like you said, I kind of mentioned it before how I think it, how I think it should happen. I think that Chandler's debut warrants a title eliminator fight.

And I think Charles Olivera is long over. were due for a title shot, although he hasn't had to wait as long as could be, for a variety of reasons, of course. But, yeah, I think that those two should fight for the right to fight Dustin for the belt. I think Dustin doesn't have to do anything more. As far as where Connor goes, I think that, you know, the thing that you can sell with him now is that he's always avenged his losses. And that's why I think there's a lot of steam behind,

you can still get a lot of meat out of Connor McGregor versus Nate Diaz 3. I think that's the reason why a lot of people are talking about that because, you know, it's an easy way to hit the till while the rest of the lightweight division is going on and all the legitimate matchups are going on. And then they can be sort of, you know, whoever wins that can be sort of a wild card.

I've also thought, why not do Holloway versus Connor 2 at lightweight? I think that would be a great fight with Holloway stalled out at featherweight, you know, Volcanovsky, not at all eager to fight that guy third time for, you know, reasonable, for obvious reasons, for rational reasons. And I think that that would be a great fight that would sell, you know, fantastically between for the division and it wouldn't it wouldn't hold up max for the future do I have a cat in here that's making an appearance is my cat is my cat is my cat I don't trust to you how bad of an idea

Holloway versus Gregor 2 is okay tell me what I would I would love to watch Connor catch that ass beaten but Max Holloway puts him in a real just bad spot. I'm trying to think of a better way to say this than something. Because hand up viewers, I totally forgot that Ryan Jimbo passed away. My bad. That I'm saying that's from trying

to not make any more egregious statement about this. But if Max Holloway and Connor fought again at any weight class, Max Holloway's going to put his dick in the dirt. Like, it's going to be bad. Connor don't want those problems. So we should, I mean,

it'd be hell of fun for me to watch. But he probably wouldn't fight again. Like, you want him to take, look, he's not Calvin Cater. He's not going to take 500 shots to the head and still be standing. Like, that's going to be a bad fight. The fight you do for Connor, look, Nate Diaz is fine and that's probably that's going to happen, whatever. I'm cool. It doesn't, at least it doesn't keep anything else. The fight you do for Connor seems really easy to me. If I have the power of the pin, it's RDA. That was the fight that was lost. RDA just had a big win at lightweight. A win over RDA keeps him in the title mix, lets him

start ostensibly working back into contention like he seems to want to do. He already have like a full training camp. Like there's a lot to build on there. We get to see him deal with somebody who's going to kick him in the legs, which we now need to know if he can adjust before he goes and fights Justin Gachie. Like that seems the real obvious Conner fight for me. I'm just talking about Connor from a cash perspective, hitting the till. And I think that's a big fight.

I think that's a fight that sells really well because because of the rematch, because of Connor's history with rematches. And because, you know, the rest, it's like it's running in parallel, basically. These are not fights that necessarily have direct bearing on the, on the division, although they could, you know, the UFC uses a lot of like commercial success to justify decisions as far as they matchmaking. You feel, I feel like you want to say something right now in an interrupt. I'm going to let you.

Look, when you have, you got to bleed that pig. You can't just slaughter it. Like, you got to drain every, you got to squeeze all the juice out of, The UFC slaughters their pigs. They slaughter them. Since when did they bleed them? The UFC has a history of sending its stars and contenders to the slaughterhouse. Like they have a history.

You have the golden goose. You don't want to kill it to eat a goose dinner. You want it to keep shitting gold egg. Max is just going to. You want the golden egg to be, the golden goose to be killed. Let me, let's be honest here. You want that golden goose. No one of reducing golden eggs.

he just put up 1.6 million against God love Dustin Poir, a dude that people don't really know. Like, he's going to put up one and a half against a broomstick. So at least give him a broomstick that he can arguably beat or won't, like, embarrass him. Max would end his whole career, man. I really think that's like maybe the worst fight Connor could ever take. Give him Tony Ferguson. He would crush Tony. I've thought he'd beat Tony three years and he should have taken that when Tony was at his peak.

because then that adds to his mystique. But like, literally anybody other than Max. Go to Welterweight, fight anybody there. Max is just a terrible match for him. Yeah, I mean, it's, I don't disagree with you. It's not, it's obviously not a great match, but it's sellable and it keeps it going.

Like, maybe it doesn't keep it going as long as you want. But if, A, if he's not going to last as long, and B, if he can, you know, come back and fight somebody else, he's still going to be a big star. Like, he's, Connor is always going to be. a big star, no matter, and until he basically hangs up the gloves. That's the way it's going to be. So I'm proposing this as a look, this is just one idea too, by the way. Like this is, you know, Nate Diaz versus Connor 3 is probably the likely thing. Okay, not the greatest idea. I'm thinking

purely in terms of like the master, you know, getting the most cash out of the out of the, uh, yeah, the, the workers will say politely. Uh, so, uh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's just independent contractors. There you go. But yeah, I mean, it's just there's a lot of different options for them as far as I see it, for them to sort of hit the till and keep the sport moving, which, in my opinion, should be Poillet versus the winner of Chandler versus Olivera. All right.

Last thing on this. And I'll give you guys a chance to respond and then give like a one sentence answer why before you move on. Stephen, I'll begin with you. UFC comes to dust and pour you with two options. You get the trilogy with Connor McGregor, main event spot, no title in the line, or you fight Michael Chandler with the title on the line. What's he going with?

I think he'll go with Connor. There's just so much money, you know, and it's a winnable fight, obviously. You had the result that you did last time. I picked that fight. I think that the belt is a very, very strong, strong attraction to him and maybe maybe he would do it

if it were for the belt but I don't know just the way that he reacted to Chandler the first time his ideas about what constitutes right and wrong in the sport which are completely valid by the way

I think that he would probably choose Connor and you know get another pair of those red panties what do you think jenn these are the two options no other option it's mcgregor non-title or you check off that box that you want to check off before you call it a career but you have to fight michael chandler to do so what do you think he does i think he should take the mcgregor trilogy fight i think he actually would take the the chandler i think it's the belt he's been been pretty clear

that that's kind of the one big thing he's he's lacking in his career and I mean, maybe he says, I'll just run it up for him, but I think he'd fight for the belt if he was given the chance. Well, all we can say, we can agree or disagree on all of this, but we can all agree that lightweight is the best. It has been that way for a long time. It's a very interesting story in 2021. But just like this matchup is fun, the point for round two goes to Stephen Morocco. I think we already knew that this was coming. one to one, but a heated debate, which we love so much.

But let us wrap a little bow around the rest of UFC 257 because the two big fights have gotten a lot of attention, and rightfully so. But there were some other great performances that may not be getting the love that they so deserve. So Steve and Morocco, we will begin with you. We're going to call this segment the Unsung Hero Award winner of UFC 257. So who fits that bill for you?

Who deserves that like 10th player award type honor following Saturday night? Well, clearly Jose Young's for working the entire event, not getting a lot of sleep, sending us a video, and doing the pre-and-post shows with, you know, Panache and Verve. Other than that, I would say that the guy who shimmied across four balconies, taking my second straight, takes a lot of effort to shimmy across four balconies. and then last but not least Marina Rodriguez she did a great job she deflated the hype bubble of Amanda Hebas proved that she can get up from the takedown

and let her her fist do the talking and even though I didn't get to watch it live I was super impressed by it thanks to ESPN Plus and yeah I think that she proves that she can fight, you know, even if she's not going to get like a title shot right away, she's definitely in the hunt. And to me, she was the biggest takeaway, like the biggest unsung hero from UFC 27.

Jed, what do you think who gets the Unsung Hero Award for you and why? Look, let me first just say, whatever the opposite of the Unsung Hero Award, that goes to Casey right now. How does Stephen not get bells for the shimmy and across the balcony thing? That was majestic. I know I'm against him right now, but that was a hell of an answer. Like, full props for that answer. Marina Rodriguez, I think, is a great choice because she did this really hilarious thing, which she started to do, which is she lost the first round and decided,

okay, well, I'm not going to stop getting taken down, but I'm just going to punch her way harder now. Like that's all she did. She did nothing really different. Like I'm just going to really lay into her and it worked. And it's a brilliant strategy and I love that. I'll give a little bit of love to a couple other people. Straight from the undercard, Martine Prachino.

Look, that was a dude I thought it was about to get levels. I mean, I know Holi Roundtree's been on a not a great streak lately, but this is a dude who knocked out Gokensaki. And Pratineo had been knocked out in the first round. or the last like three fights coming in, who was one of, if not the biggest dogs on the card, and pulled out, like, straight up win. Like, just high volume, straight win.

Like, that's a, look, man, I got to give props to that because nobody else is going to talk about any Brosnia. So I'll feel the need to do so. And then for me, I'm just going to throw out Brad Tavares. I know that it's not the most exciting fight. I just have a lot of respect for who Brad Tavarez is because he has a definite ceiling, but he is just a professional. He is a professional fighter.

He every time comes out, he knows exactly what he's doing. He executes a game plan. And he's really good. Like he's one of those guys like Neil Magni and some others who he is maximizing the tools that he has. And I always have a great amount of respect for that because, yeah, he's never going to be the champion. There are just limitations to what he can do in this sport.

But that limitation is not for lack of effort or will or anything like that. He's putting everything he has into the sport and he's reaping good benefits and dividends. And so I want to shout him out for that because, I mean, doing your best should count for a lot and he definitely does his best. I do want to ask this question that somebody sent me a couple of hours ago, shining some further light on the female fighters who had big wins on Saturday. Of course, like Stephen said, we had Marina Rodriguez. She finished Amanda Hebas, Juliana Pena, great performance against Sarah McMahon, then calls out Amanda Nunes, and then Joanne Calderwood looked really good in her fight against Jessica I.

So, Jed, we're going to begin with you, ranking these fighters from like three to one. And this is kind of predicting that all three of these women will get to this point in their careers. Where would you rank the likelihood of each of these ladies getting to a title fight first, in your opinion? just to a title fight. Jojo Calderwood's going to be number one, as in is going to get there first. Pena will be number two, and Rodriguez will be number three. I want to be clear that is not a reflection on Reno Rodriguez. Giuliana Pena just fights in a thinner division,

and her calling out Amanda Nunes was categorically insane, and the belief that Amanda Nunes has literally any fear whatsoever in any part of her body about Giuliana Pena is ridiculous but she fights in a relatively thin division she has a name and some level of star powers she can get there pretty quickly

I think Jojo may just sneak into a title shot next she probably has to win one more but she you could give her a title fight no one's really gonna buck about that so I'll give her number one Pena 2 and Rodriguez 3 you win the same boat Stephen

are you looking at it differently are we just talking about from UFC 257 competitors I mean, yeah, these three ladies who fought and won at 257. Yeah, I would agree with the, I would agree with Jed there. I mean, Jojo had the title shot, took that fight on short notice, got caught, was doing great beforehand, beat Jessica I, one-time title challenger. And I just think there's some, there's some righteousness,

there's some justice in her getting a title shot after stepping up for the company. and then falling short. Pena, I'm with Jed. I don't see any world in which she gets a title shot next. She's been far too uneven in her recent record. And Rodriguez just doesn't have the cachet yet. The Hebas win was a step in the right direction, but she also has some losses that Carlythe Sparsen previous fight.

So she's going to need to beat the bigger names before she gets in that title picture. So, yeah, I don't really have anything different to add. Big shout out to Mahmoud Murdof. Great performance for him. I also want to give a shout out to Nick Lens, who announces retirement following his loss to Mavzar. Evloev.

What a career that guy had. Vloev is a legit, legit prospect. Lentz gave him that work a little bit, gave him everything he can handle. But last thing, I said that. I said that. Just because I thought that Nick Lentz was Darren Elkin, doesn't mean that what I said was wrong.

I totally was like, that's a way tougher fight than it looks like. I just confused the two. So let's be clear on that. Fair enough, fair enough. But we have to touch on this Otman-Izatar story because everyone was wondering what was in the bag and all of that. But, Stephen, I mean, we're not going to talk about that because nobody knows, but what the hell was this guy thinking?

Like, what were they all thinking? His whole team, what were they thinking with this decision? Well, I'm going to be honest with you, Mike. Sometimes professional fighters don't think a hell. Don't think ahead, you know. It seems to be an issue that I've encountered over my 14 years of doing this. I remember being outside the one of the, God, it was like, it was the International Fight Week. And I think it was Jay Huron just came up to me and was like, hey, man, can I use your bracelet?

And, you know, I was a little bit younger in the business and wanted to, you know, be friends with everybody. And I was just like, yeah, yeah, sure, man, go ahead. Like, I'm guessing it was that dumb. Like, there wasn't a whole lot of forethought. It was just like, I'll borrow it for a second. I'll be right back. Who knew there would be shimmying involved? So I think it's, you know, we don't know, like, what, you know, obviously a lot of the details with what he was trying to transport and stuff like that.

sounds really nefarious, but it could also just equally be something really dumb, like swim trunks for the after party in the pool. So, you know, the UFC has to draw some boundaries. They have this protocol. They've done a very, very good job at keeping the bubble intact thus far. They've thrown a lot of money at the problem, and it's kind of like a prison in there with good food and a nice pool. But, you know, you cross that line in this day and age, and you're going to have some serious consequences. So I can't say, I think that it wasn't an overreaction.

I can't say I think it was an overreaction because, you know, the day and age that we're in, you just, you just can't go and do that. What did you think of this whole story, Jed? I mean, it's just so wild, so bizarre, so crazy. I mean, I thought it was, it's objectively funny, right? Like there's no huge He shimmied across the book

There's still not a good answer to why he shimmied across balconies And then just walk down the hall Like it's it's all insane and it's all kind of hilarious I think the thing that a couple of people have talked about We don't need to go into depth here is that You know what were they thinking part of it Well they probably were thinking the consequences don't apply to them And I say that because Amin's brother Abu

Was previously a UFC signee and Bloody Elbow, if you guys haven't read it, there's an article from a couple of years back. You can go read outlining a lot of like really controversial is a way to put it. A lot of, I'm trying to think of a way that's not, that says exactly what I mean to say here. There are a lot of things that would make you hesitate to want to associate yourself with him in a business or personal sense.

Now, a lot of the stuff in that article, you know, was from a period of time ago. but some of those connections, connections to organize crime, stuff like that. Again, that's not Ahmed, that's his brother Abu, but there seem to be some level of connected in there. And that just sort of builds onto a grander idea that, well, are they really facing any kind of actual punishment of these crimes? Like, if you're living that kind of life, why would you think that the rules apply to you if you're surrounded by people who operate life in a way where the rules don't. apply to them. So, you know, I certainly want to be on Steven's side and say, yeah, you know, they probably weren't thinking because it was just kind of a dumb thing that you do. But I think that

there's at least a little bit of history here that could point to it being a little bit more of a systemic problem or something that's a little, that it's a little deeper than boys will be boys. And so, you know, we don't need to get too into it because at the end of the day, it is still just objectively hilarious. Like it's, it's funny that's happened in fighting in quite some time. And I'm content enough because I don't, it's not like I think that there was something really bad in the bag or anything.

So it can just live in that world of weird MMA arcana that's hilarious. I hope we never find out what's in the bag. So it's going to go down as one of the big mysteries in our sport. What was in Aunt Zaitar's bag? Dude, like the briefcase in Pulp Fiction. It's just, we don't know. Yeah, the box in seven. I was saying, what's in the box?

What's in the box? What's in the bag? What's in the bag? But yes, the mystery remains. I have no idea what's in the bag. People want to know. Maybe we'll find out someday. But round three comes to an end.

Point goes to the build for this. There we go. Stephen Morocco is up two to one. With Instacard, you get groceries that over-deliver, so you can over-share your preferences. Want russet potatoes with no brown spots? You got it. Want turnips that look light but feel heavy?

Easy. Want honey-crisp apples that are firm green and definitely not Macintosh like last year when you lost the fall bake-off to perfect Penelope Johnson? Okay, a bit TMI, but we're here for it. So download the app today and get zero delivery fees on your first three orders. Instacard. groceries that over deliver. Service-based exclusions and terms apply.

So let us move ahead to what you all came to talk about. You all wanted to hear the reaction to this. The big news from earlier this week, ESPN reports on Tuesday that a boxing match between Jake Paul and Ben Ascran is taking place on April 17th, which will be my son's eighth birthday. So he gets to attach the rest of his life to the night that Ben Ascran and Jake Paul fought. but be that as May. There will also be a UFC event that night, but this is happening. It's a Triller Presents event, much like the Mike Tyson versus Roy Jones Jr. card,

but eight rounds of boxing between Jake Paul and Ben Ascran. So first off, let me just say, I was very surprised by this for a couple of reasons. One, because Ascran just had major hip surgery in September, but he did speak with Ariel Hawani. He just kind of cleared that up. But also our own Damon Martin just spoke to Ben Ascran today, so look for that to drop, I believe, tomorrow.

And the other reason why, when this fight was becoming a thing, there were some outlets that were reporting that this was a done deal. It was not even close to being a done deal. Not at all. It was barely even at like the preliminary stages despite reports coming up.

But the fight being a done deal was probably like four or five days old. So I'll just get that out there. But I'll admit, I thought we're all being trolled with this whole thing and I was wrong. So here we are. So Jed Michew, you know me well enough at this point. I don't like to make assumptions,

but I will in this case. Something tells me that you are loving this fight more than most things in the world. Am I accurate in this assessment or am I way wrong? No, you're really wrong. I hate this. There are no winners. Everyone's a loser here. Nothing good will come of this.

I always thought it was going to happen because it makes so much sense. It's like if Jake Paul wants to fight a guy who he thinks that he can beat and maybe isn't wrong in that regard, or at least there's reason for him to believe that while still beating a fighter to gain some credibility. Ben Ascran clearly thinks he's going to mop the floor with this dude and get to box, which would be like, remember Matt Hughes? When Matt Hughes was like his whole aspiration in life was to knock somebody out of his hands, like there's a little bit of that to Asker. And it's just a truckload of money.

Like, it always made sense to me. And I never wanted it. I can't believe we're here. It's bad on every possible level. Good for them, get checks. I don't begrudge a person getting paid because, I mean, shit, I'd go boxed to pay for all to get paid. Like, that's fine.

But it's the next few weeks or months or whatever interminable amount of time it's going to be between now and then. It is going to feel like a lifetime because Jake Paul is not clever. He is very clearly good at being a celebrity and cultivating that in the way that he has. You can't argue with the results. But he's very objectively just not a clever individual. So this is going to be bad trash talk. Ben Ascran is at least a little clever, like more clever.

But I never liked Ben Ascran that much. And the part that sucks is there's no. a good outcome because I'm put in a situation. I have to either root for Ben Ascran, who is Ben Ascran, and come on, man, like go, go read his Twitter feed for literally a day. I have to read it every day and it makes me not like him more and more. Or Jake Paul, who I'm still not confident. I know which one is Jake versus Logan, if I'm being honest. Not one of the people that I want to know about because I'm an old person and I don't care about the young, the youths and their movement. And I really, if this is the dude

video the dead guy in a tree. I really don't want to support him. So I want both of them to lose. The only good outcome, because if Jake Paul wins, that's going to be miserable. And it's Ben Ascram wins and Ben Ascran won. And I don't feel good about that happening. The only good outcome is that like the ring just collapses and everyone just goes away or it falls into the sea. Like that if the whole arena, the thriller, the thriller arena just fell into the sea, that would be a good outcome. Otherwise, this is going to dominate the conversation for the next two months and I'm going to hate every minute of it. And hate watching. Let's be clear.

You want to hate that. Stephen? Why is, why is Cam Soda okay and Jake Paul versus Ben Ask or not? No, I didn't say that this isn't okay. This is totally okay. If you want to, if this is your thing, great. Like, this is a thing that is not for me because of the people involved in it. Like, but no, I'm obviously a big Cam Soda and a big ridiculous fight.

I like, and like I said, if I'm been asking, I'm doing the same thing. Like, get them checks, buddy. But I am not, I don't particularly enjoy either person in it. I think this has limited entertainment and sporting merit. And so it just has, there's very little that can appeal to me here. Does it feel like you at all see them? I have this image in my head of like you, like, scrolling, like in graffiti on, on Jake Paul's grave, like objectively not a clever person. that would really

look I'll be a hand-up I haven't watched his old uvra like maybe he's way more clever than I think but all the things that I've seen are just like real dude broie yeah sure when you put him next to Oscar Wilde he's not clever he's not witty

that's not the market we're going for here it's like next to Oscar Wilde he's just not like witty repartee is not what not what we're in this business for which is why it just it puts us in a terrible position, you know. Like we have been covering this for how long?

Like we're a, like, and doing a good job and doing a serious job of it, right? You know, we're trying to, yeah. Opinions vary. Opinions vary. But now, like, our trap, you know, there's these things to get so much tension. And they suck up so much oxygen and they become impossible to ignore that we have to treat them like there's some sort of serious or. even if they're not serious,

that we have to pay attention to them. We have to provide them oxygen because that's the way we make, you know, our bones. So, I mean, yeah, it's objectively bad. It's basically a continuation of what Triller has been doing before and a continuation of what Logan Paul started with the KSI thing. You know, what was that? That feels like so long ago,

but it was not that long ago that actually happened. The way that I think of it is that we're just scratching it like known commodities in the, you know, internet combat sports world. They found something and then they're just trying to hit it as many times. I don't know why they couldn't get Dylan Dennis. It seems like we're kind of getting the consolation prize here. You know, they had that one teed up, you know, they couldn't have teed up better. They had the cameras rolling when Jake did his whole stunt.

But nothing worse could happen. Like, what? Danes versus Danes versus Paul Danes versus anybody is something that should never happen we should excommunicate him

from the sport but Danis versus Paul actually that might be better because if it was Danes versus Paul I couldn't even hate watch that

this one I'm going to and look just to be fair because I'm going to try to be fair I actually think that on the merits of the bout

this might be competitive. Like, Jake Paul is not a professional boxer. Neither has been Ascran. Like, if you got rid of the people, and I didn't have to know who the people are, and just looked at the fight and everything else about the people beyond their personalities, I can say that it is kind of interesting

because Ascran is not a great striker, but I think he's better than, certainly better than Jake Paul thinks, and better probably than many people. think. Like, he was kind of outboxing Damian Maya, who's also, like, not that bad of a striker. But, and also, he's just been a combat sports athlete for over a decade, like, that there's a lot of ground he already has ahead. But Jake Paul, I mean, hate him or not, like, that's fine if you hate him. I am not going to be the guy to say don't hate the man. He has clearly worked really hard

on boxing, on learning the sport, being better at the sport. Like, he's never going to be a professional level but he's not trying to be that and so at least that i can appreciate and respect like he is Jake's the one who knocked out Nate Robinson right let me that's correct yeah okay yeah yeah that dude the other one sucks he lost to the rapper like he's he's hot trash but Jake is at least like really trying to work and like he actually showed some things in the name Robinson part on that level i can at least i there is a part of me that can respect that while Jake Paul is in some regards making a mockery of boxing or whatever. I don't really give a shit about that. He's still being a little Jake Pauley, but he is where it counts, working. And I can respect that

he is taking it seriously and coming into this as a serious athlete. And Ben Ascran, I don't like as a person, but I absolutely can respect what he has accomplished in sport and what he does in sport. So if you take away the personalities, I'm actually marginally interested in the fight because it's kind of fun, but the overwhelming who they are just really, really isn't my favorite thing. Yeah, all you have to do is take away 90% of who they are, and it's actually a mid-level, mid-card fight. Great. Great, great selling point. You have to take away every, like, all of the reasons that people are going to buy and watch this, you got to get rid of those. And then I'm in. But if you leave all this there, I'm way less excited about it.

All right, so let me ask, we'll do you guys this before we move on because we're running out of time. The UFC is, I don't know if they're going to counter-program this, but Robert Whitaker versus Paulo Costa will be headlining that event on April 17. So kind of a two-parter here, Stephen. One, if you're the UFC, do you get this card rolling as early as possible to try to avoid this altogether? And two, take the fact that you cover this sport out of it and that it's your job. If you could only watch one of these events and you could not even go on Twitter to find out what's going on with the other, which one are you watching?

Are you watching Asken Paul? Or are you watching the UFC event headline by Whitaker and Costa? I mean, I'm watching the UFC event. I got into this sport because I like, see, blatant play for the judges right there. I'm getting into this because I've been covering this for so long because I like the sport. I don't like the, I hate the WWE. I despise the WWE and I despise all of the things that it makes fighters think they need to do. And I despise how effective it is in drawing in casual viewers.

I got into this because I like watching the sport. One is a sport and one is not really a sport. It's like bum fights or, you know, insert like random, internet weirdness here. It's just like one is serious and one isn't. And so I'm going to watch the one that's serious because I do think to a certain extent when you put them side by side, you know, you have two, you have two different things. One is like the best athletes in the world doing what their best at. And one is like, you know, guys just sort of trying to stage a car crash. and as fun as that is for a split second,

I'm kind of more of the purest. I've always been that way. I get disappointed a lot, I feel, like, in this sport because I take it so seriously sometimes, and then there's so many times when it's quite obvious that it's not a real sport and it's not being promoted as a real sport because of commercial considerations.

So I'm one of those purists, and I would definitely be watching the UFC. What was it? What was the other question that you had? I have to go back and think. I was so lost in your question. Should the UFC try to get this thing rolling earlier in the day as opposed to trying to like counter program? Nope. Yes.

Absolutely. Steer clear of it. Although, like, does it really matter? I mean, they've got the TV deal. They're supposed to meet a certain number of events per year. This is, you know, to meet the contract. contractual obligations to the fighters and the TV broadcast partners. So this is also not their super premium content.

This is a fight night card as opposed to Connor McGregor. But yeah, sure, if you want to bolster your TV numbers, probably serial clip. What are you doing, Jed? Which one are you going to partake in if you could only choose one? So first, yeah, you don't counter-program this. You're not going to be that. it's not the same market realistically. You're just not going to be that successful.

You're probably just going to hurt yourself when you can maximize that. So just whatever you think about this fight, it's probably going to do pretty good numbers. I hate the second question because it made me really grapple with who I am as a person. I get real. It was a very existential last two minutes for me because I think, and I'm loath to say this. I think I would watch the Paul Ascran match over the UFC if I can only choose one and I don't get to, I'm going to watch it. And it's going to be a couple of reasons. Look, I'm with you all the way, Stephen, meritocratically from a purest standpoint. One of those is much better than the other. And two major problems. And the first one is I'm pretty confident that Robert Whitaker is just going to beat the brakes off Paula Costa. So I don't have to see that to know how that's going to play out in my head. But really the bigger issue is I'm a bad person.

And as much as I would like to be a white knight and say, yeah, I do the things for me and that's it. And to hell with all the rest of you, purest to the moon, that's just not been the case in my life. I'm not a WWU fan. I'm not in this for any of that stuff. but I can tell you that I assume this fight happens on a Saturday. I can tell you that when I wake up Sunday, I'm going to have 25 text messages from people that I haven't spoken to in years because I'm the dude who does fights like all of my old friends from college and high school,

all that are going to reach out. I'm like, oh, tell me your thoughts on this and respond you to them with, I don't know, I was watching a random UFC event while fine. It really hurts my public cachet. and I'm in it for that. That's why I got into the sport for the fame and the money. That's why I'm here as an MMA journalist so I can be famous. And the way to be famous is when people come to you to have the answers that matter.

And they're not going to come. Like literally nobody is going to ask me about Robert Whitaker versus Paul Acosta. But a lot of people are going to ask me about the Ascran thing. And maybe I also just hate myself a little and I want to feel bad and dirty watching it. But that's it. Like if I can only pick one, I'm going to pick this shitty boxing match. Oh, man. It's a very existential moment in the last few minutes.

Yeah, I mean, this is the thing, folks. We're talking about this. Jake Paul versus Ben Askeran. I'm not going to take full responsibility for this, but I feel partially responsible for this because when I interviewed Ben Asker in November and he was working with one championship, I asked him about this thing specifically.

He said what he said. Here we are. I know he's done other interviews since to kind of like pump the tires a little more, but here we be in January 28th, getting ready for April 17th. But the point for this round goes to Jedmishu. How can we not give him the point after that deep philosophical and maybe psychological dive into his own brain trying to decipher? I'm going to watch. I'm a mess right now.

I don't know who I am anymore. Oh, man. Well, it all comes down to this. It is time for the knock around. One question will decide at all. Neither competitor knows what this question is. Last week, we brought back the fun segment. What am I thinking?

This week, we will go with a more traditional final question because each of these excellent journalists are here. They've already gone through that ringer. They're going to each have 60 seconds to answer this question. Once that is done, we will go over to the judge, the jury, the executive producer, E. Casey Liden, to render the final decision. but I will say Casey considers himself the people's judge. So as this round is playing out,

make sure to give your take on who wins the knocker round and the game in the chat. If you want to go on Twitter and use the hashtag BTL, why not? I don't know. I will say we're working behind the scenes to try to figure out a way to have the listeners and viewers vote on how these things play out in the future. Still playing around with that.

But for now, we keep things old school on the program. With that said, Stephen, you are the champion and you have the champion's prerogative. So would you like to answer this first or pass it on over to Jed? I'll answer it first. Look at this. Champion, going first. Okay, so here is the question, Stephen.

As we have talked about for the last couple of weeks, the UFC's lightweight division, the championship scene where Habib may or may not fit into this puzzle, it is a fascinating story and arguably the most intriguing storyline in the UFC for the rest of 2021. So the question is, as we wrap up January and the UFC heads back to Las Vegas next weekend. Outside of the 155 pound division,

what is your most intriguing storyline to watch for the rest of this year of our Lord, 2021? So we put one minute on the clock. Outside the lightweight division, most intriguing storyline for the rest of 21. Your time starts now. Is this competitively or just in general with the sport? I have to ask a question before we start.

Like is this Whatever you want? Whatever I want Great, perfect The antitrust case Boom Start the clock Start the clock

Yeah It's The UFC has been doing business For a long time For You know over a decade now They've been doing a business A particular way

And there are There's finally a real challenge To the validity of that business model in terms of anti-competitive conduct and monopsony power, sorry. And with the class being certified with fighters, I'm just dying to know if the judge sees that their case has got married, if the UFC has actually been, can be proven to have engaged in anti-competitive conduct.

If it does go through, if they lose and they lose, or they wind up settling the case. It could fundamentally change the way that the business is conducted. It could change the lengths of contracts. It could change the way that people negotiate in the business. And that could have huge repercussions for the actual business of MMA, how things get put together and competition in general. All right.

I wanted to give him an extra few seconds to figure that out. Chad, same question to you. Like most of these questions on this program, open to interpretation. So outside of the 155 pound division in the UFC, what is the most intriguing storyline you have your eye on for the rest of this year? We have the one-minute marker on the clock and the Hulk Hogan, red and yellow. Your time starts now. I think it's maybe a little close to what Stephen said, but entirely different.

And by that, I'm talking about the UFC's like open decision to just let talent walk away. Like Dana White said they're cutting people and they're bringing in, frankly, they're bringing in talent off the context. series, and we've already started to see that happen, Anderson Silva, Yoha Romero. We are anticipating even more of that happening. And so to me, that's the most interesting thing about this year is specifically with Bellator, picking up even more talent, really growing themselves. They have the potential this year to really become maybe not a competitor quite, but to really

start laying the foundation. And then if antitrust comes down, then Bella, there's a whole new ballgame. Maybe Bellator can't. But the way the UFC is letting their star, like their aging veterans and stars leave to replace them with young talent. You know, union-busting tactics, frankly, is fascinating for the fall-reaching implications for all the other organizations and how they're going to look growing off of what the UFC is chosen to do. All right. Both very, very interesting, compelling arguments here. I wish we could have like three minutes to give those arguments.

but well said, well done by both individuals. But as you know, I'm a coward. I take this off of my plate altogether. So I give it on over to the judge, the jury, the executive producer, the Honorable E. Casey Liden to render the final decision. I don't know what the chat's looking like Casey, but we turn it out over to you. Who is the Between the Links champion?

Audible side. I'm looking at the comments. The comments, there's a bit of a delay with the internet, The comments are coming in. I'm seeing. I've kind of made my decision, but I want to see what the people are saying. All right, all right.

The people. The people. All right. You're a winner. And it was close. It was close. And still, Stephen Morocco. 2021, the year of Porier,

the year of Jake Paul versus Ben Ascran, the year of the title reign for Stephen Morocco. Unbelievable. He gets it done yet again. What a battle indeed. Jen Michoud will certainly be back. But Stephen, you don't get any money or an actual championship belt for your victory, but you do get 30 seconds to wax poetically about whatever it is you want to talk about, good, bad, and different in the sport of mixed martial arts. The floor is yours.

Well, my BTL record is now two and one. I plan on entering, trying to get on tough because a two-on-run record is, is usually good for that. But other than that, I am looking forward to starting a new rain, a more just rain, a more even-handed rain, unencumbered by a lot of the moral and philosophical issues that the previous champion was grappling with. So I hope you'll join me in this journey that we're all along in this crazy year of our Lord 2021 and

cheers to you. Jedden, what would you like to say? Well, like the Ben Ascran problem, I blame this entirely on you. Your question made me reassess who I am as a person and that shook me heading into the final round here.

The last thing I want to say is what I was going to say with my winner's speech, which is just Habib knew for like literal years, Habib's just been saying Destin Boy is the dude other than him. And I think now we all agree. So shots to the beat. Way to go, buddy.

There you go. So now we get to find some new blood for our champion, Stephen Morocco, because just like in the UFC, you could be a champion, but it doesn't really count until you defend once, and Stephen has done that successfully. So congratulations to Stephen. Jed, you are great. You will certainly be back on multiple times this year.

I think they get 15 appearances in 2020. Something tells you'll be back on. this program in 2021. I can't blame a lack of activity. Like, I don't even have that one in the back pocket here. I just got beat. It's your fault, Mike. It's entirely your fault.

You know, we've got to put your mind to the test. It's not just about a May. It's about, you know, we look into ourselves at times. That's what Between the Links does for the listening and viewing audience. So thank you very much to everybody watching and listening right now for Jed Mishu, Steve Morocco, our judge,

Casey Liden on the production side, the iconic boy, Sylvester Lynn, takes you out. We'll see you back next week once again. Between the Links. Good night, everybody. Love you guys. This has been Between the Links and MMA Fighting Production on the Vox Media Network. You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network.