MMA Fighting - Between the Links: Edwards vs. Masvidal, Pena's Release, Jon Jones Latest, UFC Vegas 40 vs. Bellator 268, More

Episode Date: October 14, 2021

Host Mike Heck is joined by MMA Fighting’s Damon Martin and singer-songwriter Nathan Williams from the band Wavves as they discuss the biggest stories of the week in the world of mixed martial arts. This week, the panel discusses the UFC finally booking the Leon Edwards vs. Jorge Masvidal matchup at UFC 269 in December and what's at stake for both guys, Luis Pena's latest domestic violence arrest and subsequent release from the UFC, while former light heavyweight champion Jon Jones still remains on the roster, Mike Winkeljohn announcing Jones currently not welcome at JacksonWink, the better card between UFC Vegas 40 and Bellator 268 this weekend, whether a Joanna Jędrzejczyk UFC return or Carla Esparza title fight will come first, Francis Ngannou's broken silence, and more. Follow Mike Heck: @MikeHeck_JR Follow Damon Martin: @DamonMartin Follow Wavves: @WAVVES Subscribe: http://goo.gl/dYpsgH Check out our full video catalog: http://goo.gl/u8VvLi Visit our playlists: http://goo.gl/eFhsvM Like MMAF on Facebook: http://goo.gl/uhdg7Z Follow on Twitter: http://goo.gl/nOATUI Read More: http://www.mmafighting.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Support for this show comes from the Audible Original, the downloaded two, ghosts in the machine. The Earth only has a few days left. Rosco Cudullian and the rest of the Phoenix colony have to re-upload their minds into the quantum computer, but a new threat has arisen that could destroy their stored consciousness forever. Listen to Oscar winner Brendan Fraser reprise his role as Rosco Cudulian in this follow-up to the Audible Original Blockbuster. The Downloaded, it's a thought-provoking sci-by journey where identity, memory, and morality collide. Robert J. Sawyer does it again with this much-anticipated sequel that leaves you asking, What are you willing to lose to save the ones you love?

The Downloaded 2, Ghosts in the Machine. Available now, only from Audible. To the Vox Media Podcast Network. From M.M.A. Fighting Studios, this is Between the Links. And now your host, my... The iconic voice of Esther Lynn welcomes you back once again to a brand new edition of Between the Links.

Hope everyone's having a wonderful week. We have a fun matchup in store. We have some big news at the top of the show and also a big announcement in regards to this program at the bottom. So stay locked in for that information. That is going to be a fun announcement to make. But let us make this first big reveal.

And normally the person who is victorious, the week prior gets announced second, but this week was a little different because there was no winner after the show last week. We left it up to you guys to vote for who you thought won the matchup between Jose Young's and Damon Martin. It was a spirited battle. And a lot of you waited on this. And I'll say, like, in regards to how you all voted, this was like a quantity versus quality because the winner got the most votes. But the guy who didn't win got there was such passionate pleas as to why this person should have won. I got paragraphs as to why this person should have won.

Unfortunately, I didn't get enough of those paragraphs because Damon Martin got the votes, and that's all that matters at the end of the day. I got Damon, I got DM, I got D, I got all different things. Joseo's getting stories about why he should have won, but people just wanted to let me know Damon Martin won. He got the most votes, and he's now back on the show, looking to make it too straight. Damon, congratulations on the victory last.

week, welcome back to the program. And I appreciate the quantity, but I also feel like I brought some quality too. Yes, I mean, it's just the messages. It was just the messages of people. Jose was like Chapter 1 of why Jose should have won paragraph. Yours is just like, Damon won, Damon one, Damon one, Damon one. It was like two word answers. So that's why people just, people thought you won. More people thought you won, that's all that matters.

But as we promised last week, we have a special guest joining the panel. I believe he is in Florida. He's in the Sunshine State. Sunshine State, touring with his band Waves. He's the singer-songwriter for the band, and on top of that, he's a huge fan of mixed martial arts. He says he wants all the smoke, and when you say that, you get the damn call. He answered, so happy to welcome Nathan Williams to the panel this week. How are you, sir? You are in Florida, right? That's where the tour has you guys right now. Yep, I'm in Miami right now, and yeah, I do want all the smoke. I meant that when I said it, Michael

Huck, I meant it. Well, I appreciate that. Let's get right into this thing. Let's begin with a big announcement that took place earlier this week. It's finally happening after all the trash talk, all the no-selling, the three-piece in the soda, and more. We are finally scheduled to see the fight between Leon Edwards and Jorge Mazadol, December 11th, UFC 269, a three-round fight. And this fight now joins the Charles Oliva, Dustin Porier, and Amanda Nunes Giuliana-Pena-Pena-T title fights. And it shifted the trilogy fight between Brandon Moreno and Davis and Figurion. to January at UFC 270. So Damon, we're going to kick things off with you. This is a fight everyone

has wanted to see for a while. They finally are, at least business-wise, in each other's paths. And this is a no-brainer fight to make for both sides, in my opinion. But before we talk about the significance of the matchup for both guys, the UFC really seemed to want to get this thing on this particular card. They pushed the flyway title fight back a month. And 269 was already looking really solid without it. So I guess my first question is, did this card need this fight? Like, why do you think the UFC pulled the trigger on doing this one in December instead of January or February? Well, I know part of it comes down to Jorge Mazadol. He really wanted a fight this year. He wanted to get another fight in this year after losing to Kamar Usman. He didn't want to wait until 2020 to fight again.

So I think that was a big part of it. Now, also, the Leon Edwards has said he didn't want to fight again before a title fight unless he got to fight in 2021. So I think you put those two factors together that really, you know, exemplified why they wanted to do this fight right now as opposed to waiting, you know, and in doing it, I mean, it seems like the business model for the UFC has shifted a little bit in the way they're building cards because lately a lot of the fight night cards have been kind of, well, no, not kind of. They've been terrible.

They've been terrible cards. I mean, they're not good cards. They're not stacked at all. the main events have been weird kind of. I mean, I understand injuries and things like that kind of ruin some of them, but there have been some really bad main events and just overall terrible cards, but the pay-per-views have been

stacked. I mean, UFC 266 was stacked. UFC 267 is stat. U.S. 268 is stat. It seems like they're really paying attention at least until next year when I assume they'll be able to go back out into arenas and have crowds for fight night cards again.

Then maybe they'll start doing those again. Because in my opinion, this fight between Mazvedon, and Edwards seems tailor-made to take to either London or Miami. I mean, there's just, you can imagine they would sell out an arena or at least get a lot of ticket sales in either place for that fight. But because they can't do that, because it would be behind closed doors at the UFC apex as they're doing for at least the rest of this year, I think that's part of the reason why this ended up on UFC 269 as opposed to, you know, next year or a later card or a

fight night card. So my only other argument with this fight is it's about damn time. It's three years past when it should have happened. I mean, these guys had a backstage altercation, the three-piece in a soda, a very famous incident. And listen, I understand, like, you think about it, like, that fight should have been booked right away. Now, without that, you don't get, maybe you don't get, you know, Madsendal, you know, leaving

Ben Ascran, you know, laid waste to him in five seconds a few months later, which kind of, you know, propelled Jorge into the spotlight, you know, so, you know, that, I think, like, I understand now you can say it in retrospect uh you know oh well you know they did the right thing by not making the fight back then because you got the ashtra knockout but that being said this is about three years too late it should have been booked you know right after this happened or relatively soon after this happened but i'm glad it's finally happening and uh and it's going to be a big fight for both horay and for leon what do you think nathan why now like why not wait i mean because let's just say like january it's not done yet but it's looking like anaheim february i mean

Florida is wide open to the UFC. Like if they want to go to Miami, they can go to Fort Lauderdale and go to Fort Lauderdale. They want to go to Orlando or Tampa or wherever. They could go because Florida doesn't give an F about anything right now. You can go and have 100,000 people in a place and they don't really care. So, why

now? Why do you think they did this right now instead of waiting to like the first quarter of 2022? That's a good question. I think the better question is though, why now, why not three years ago, right? Like, why was this not made immediately? I think in this, like in the next couple of months or the beginning, quarter one of next year,

that doesn't as much interest me. I think probably the reason that it was made now is what you said earlier. Leon said he wanted to fight one more time this year. And Mosvidal can't throw around as much weight coming off of two losses. He fought for the title twice. He lost both times. He doesn't have an excuse this time. And so this fight just makes more sense now. But I mean, I am glad that Edwards gets this fight. That was the first thought I had is I'm glad he finally gets a chance at a little bit of revenge. But then my second reaction is why does he need to take this fight? I mean, it's good for him, like the D.S. fight. Why did he need to take that fight? They're both big fights for the guy, right? Like they're the two biggest fights.

he's had. But even before that, he accepted the Hamzat fight. And I say accepted very loosely, right? Because when the promotion takes you out of the rankings, it's not really accepting. It's not a two-way street with the UFC. So I think at this point, I don't think that Leon has a choice. And I think the UFC has made it abundantly clear to him. So it's, it isn't really a choice for him. I don't know why they would make it now as opposed to next year. And I agree with you, Miami or London, those are the two places. And Miami makes more sense right now because Florida doesn't give a flying fuck what you do. I mean, just being here a few days, it's wild stuff.

So I don't know why, but I guess I'm glad that he finally got the fight. So let's sort of talk about this all means because you guys both sort of planted the seeds here because, Nathan, the rival you're certainly there. Edwards is won nine in a row. A lot of people feel he should be fighting for the title right now or should have a long time ago. And then there's Mazadol who, like you said, he's become one of the biggest stars in the sport, but he's lost back-to-back fights, both to Kamar Uspin, first one on less than a week's notice. Cool. Second one was on a full camp and he was on the receiving end of a surefire finalist for the knockout of the year in 2021 when we start doing these awards. So who do you think needs this one more? Because you got

Edwards, who is on this mission to get what he deserves, in a fight that he's favored to win against one of the biggest stars in the sport. And then you have Mazadol who might be losing a little bit of steam, like you said, in the Star Department, and would lose his third straight fight. So who do you think needs this one more? Edwards, easy. Because Edwards is always at odds with the promotion. And when you're at odds with the promotion, you've got to do at least twice as much work. If Mazadol loses to Edwards, he's still going to get a big fight. because they have a good relationship and it works for the promotion.

He's going to make them money. Edwards is not necessarily the type of guy that's going to go out and he's going to make big fights talking shit. That's just not his style. But Mosvedal, after the beef with, what's his name,

Ben Ascarin, and then the three-piece in a soda and than a little bit of the like thing with the Diaz brothers. I mean, he's he's got people interested in seeing him fight. He's got casuals interested in seeing him fight. Leon, not as much. So I'd say it's more important for him.

Yeah, and you probably, I would say you probably agree with that, Damon, but just like there's a whole thing with the star petition. Like if Connor going out and getting bolted by Dustin Porier twice, like it sucks for him. It sucks for him. It sucks for his title implications. but there's still big fights out there for him. Like he has the big seat at the big table when it comes to superstardom. And Mazadol is probably there.

Like he probably has one of the seats. But, you know, some of his political opinions and things like that, people have started to fall off a little bit. So maybe this does mean more for him. Maybe the star power is starting to diminish a little bit. If he goes out and loses to Leon Edwards, a guy that fans don't necessarily think that highly of, maybe that drops him down a little bit more.

Maybe he's back in the waiting room again. when it comes to the star potential. So do you, do you, can you make an argument that Mazadol at all, can you make any kind of argument at all that Mazadol needs this one more than Leon? Not any. And, you know, to, you know, to, to agree with, you know, what you said there about, you know, Lee, and I would disagree slightly to say, you know, the promotion, I would say he's also at odds with the fans, because the fans just have never really gotten on board with Leon for whatever reason.

They just don't like him, you know, the whole controversy with, you know, sitting out and being out. And none of that was out of his control. All of that was out of his control with the pandemic going on, his fight with Tyron Woodley getting canceled. None of that was his fault. But, you know, when the UFC paints you in a picture and says that you're not taking fights or you're not fighting or whatever, the fans kind of turn against you. And the fans are, and the fans just don't seem to be on board, Leon. So that's what he's fighting an uphill battle with right now. And I think that's why this fight matters so much.

But for, for Mazwithal, yeah, it definitely matters. And I would say, I won't, you know, I won't say it matters more than what it matters to Leon, but it definitely matters. because listen, Jorge Mazvedol's been around forever. This is an almost 20-year veteran of the sport. He had to wait until basically leaving Ben Ascran laying in a pile of super necessary knees to basically become a star. I mean, Jorge's never been that guy. I wrote articles about Jorge when he was fighting Gilbert Melendez back in Strike Force saying he was one of the most unheralded guys of the sport because no one really knew him.

He was just a worker. He just went out there and did his business, and he was a great fighter, but he never quite reached that apex and becoming a champion. We got to remember, Mazadol becoming a star is a very, very, very recent thing. I mean, this is within the last couple of years. So it does matter because the end of the day, you want your stars to win. I mean, yes, Connor's star power is in a different stratosphere, but just like with what Ronda Rousey dealt with, you know, enough losses, enough bad losses, people will start to tune out on you. People will start to lose interest when you're just not winning and not in competitive fight. If Conner comes back and gets, you know, torn apart by, you know, Rafael Fizier or some other lightweight out there that's kind of making waves, yeah, he'll still be a star, but it will start to diminish.

I mean, you want to see your stars win. That's just the nature of sports. And same to him in Mazidol, I think getting, you know, getting laid out the way he did against Kamar Usman, a guy that everyone said couldn't possibly strike with Horace Mazzadol to go out. They got to get knocked out the way he did is a very, very bad look for a guy who has called himself one of the best strikers. in the sport, a guy who was dismantling Nate Diaz on the feet before the stoppage. So, yeah, it's really important for Madsenaal because he needs to go out there and remind people how good he is. He needs to remind people that he is a star. He needs to remind people that he is one of the best welter weights in the sport. And unfortunately, one of the downsides

of our sport is that we live in a, you know, a recency bias. We live in a prisoner of the moment sport. You are only as good as your last fight. Now, there's some truth to that, but there's also a lot falsehood to that. And the reality is, Jorge Mazinol lost the best welterweight in the sport. I would argue talent-wise, the best welterweight ever. And I know a lot of George St. Pierre fans are going to freak out on me on that. But I think Kumar Usman is unbelievably talented. There's no shame in losing to that guy by knockout, submission, decision, whatever.

But that's what everyone remembers about Mazinol right now. So he needs to go out there and remind people, yeah, I am one of the best welter weights of the world. Yeah, I am as good as advertised. And a loss here would be devastating. I mean, he'll still be a star and he could still do the Nate Diaz rematch, let's say. But his prospects at Welchawait are, I won't say gone, but they're quite diminished. Damon, do you think if the three-piece Minnesota thing never happened that Leon Edwards would be in a better place with everybody? Like, I feel like that, that just crushed him. Like, he's always going to be the guy who got got backstage by Jorge Mazadol. Like, that's the mean, that's what everybody. He's just, it's kind of etched

in everybody's mind. Like when you mentioned Leon Edwards, he's the guy that Jorge Mazadol punched in the face backstage and couldn't really do much about and the fight never got booked. Do you think this fight helps maybe take that away? Like, do you think we'd even be having this conversation about Leon Edwards if that incident didn't happen? If he just stayed

away from Mazadol and Lorisanko, if he just ignored it, walked to the back and didn't say a word, would we be having this conversation about Edwards, his relationship with the fans, and maybe how the UFC views him in terms of matchmaking? There's two sides to that. coin. I would agree wholeheartedly that he came out looking worse in that situation, especially

when, you know, where he does the interview and he calls it, I had to hand him a three piece of a soda, which is now, you know, right up there with your red panty night, as far as as like iconic phrases in our sports history, that that's up there. So you want it, you feel bad for him, kind of like, you know, Jeremy Stevens, for all the things he's done in his career, how many times does he have to, you know, who the fuck is that guy? I mean, that's all he ever hears now. No matter what he does for the rest of his career, that's going to haunt him. that's the reality. But on the other side, Leon, and I like Leon very much. I've interviewed him many times, incredibly nice guy. He has never been that guy to go out there and put on those kind of performances to where people are just buzzing about you afterwards.

He didn't do, he didn't have, you know, those kind of big, hot, flashy knockouts. He's never been a trash talk guy. I mean, he, you know, he talked about it on the MMA hour yesterday with Ariel, where he said that, you know, when he was in his own home country, he got booed walking out to the, to the, to the cage. for a fight against Gunner Nelson because he had gotten into a war of words with Darren Till. Darren Till, of course, another British fighter. But because he had gone to war with a very well-like guy, he got booed in his own country. So this is a guy who needs shine of any kind. Now, yes, the Mazadol thing is a terrible look for him, but it did bring him in a weird way, brought him to the forefront in people's minds, because I guarantee you, just beating Gunner

Nelson by, I think it was a split decision that night, no one would have, no one would care. All anyone would have talked about was Masnizl knocking out Darren Till. That's all anyone would have talked about. At least he got in the conversation, not in the right way and not in the way I'm sure he wanted to get in the conversation, but at least he's gotten people paid attention to him. And then for the last three years, he's been saying he's ducking me, he's running away. Maderswell doesn't want this fight. And again, there's a majority of fans who are still saying, oh, you know, you got three pieces in a soda shut up. But at least people are talking about you. It's like the old adage, you know, it's better have people saying anything about you.

nothing about you. It's the, you know, there's no such thing as bad publicity. As bad as it was for him. And I would say yes, he definitely came out on the wrong end of that. At least people know Leon Edwards, because we got to be honest here. Just based on his fight credentials, just based on the wins he's had, he's not been that guy. His biggest win is four years ago of Vicente Lucke, when Vicente Lucille wasn't atop Welchway, he's not Vicente Lucke of today. He doesn't have those marquee wins. He doesn't have those high-profile fights. He got the Nate Deereuxie. He got the Nate Diaz fight, which was supposed to be his crowning achievement, and then he goes out and almost loses in the fifth round and all anyone could talk about was Nate Diaz. So Leon in a weird way,

as bad as that was for him, it at least brought him to the forefront of people's minds where otherwise, you know, he would have gotten that, uh, I'm trying to, I'm trying to, I'm trying to like, like, you know, that, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, guys who are always their workers, their workers, but they're just, there's never any buzz about them. At least there's a buzz about Leon now. Nathan, you've watched a sport long enough. Let me just ask this to both of you gentlemen, then we'll move on.

If Leon Edwards goes out and wins December 11th, which the odds makers and a lot of fans are expecting him to do, whether people like Leon or not, I mean, I feel like if he goes out and sleeps Mazadol, it's a no-brainer. Edwards gets the title shot, but like David said, Leon's not, isn't typically that kind of fighter goes out and sleeps people. So let's say, Nathan, that Leon Edwards does,

but a lot of people seem to, be predicting he will do. He will tactfully go out, win a three-round decision. What are the chances that Dana White gets up to that table after that card and says, you know what, Leon Edwards, his next fight will be for the belt. Don't need no matchmaking meeting on Tuesday. Leon's our guy. What are the chances that happens? I guess you never know. You would think that that is impossible. And I think Leon even said on Halwani's show this week that he has it in writing that the winner of this fight is getting a title shot. So you hope that he actually has that in writing. UFC sticks to it and, and, you know, that's what happens. But Dana holds the power. And, you know,

Dana can go and stand up at the post-fight presser and spin whatever shit he wants to. He can walk out there in a howler head t-shirt that's 14 sizes too small for him. And he's, and he's, He can tell you that the fighters like getting paid less because their families won't hit him up for money. It's beyond absurd. So who knows what will happen? You can't say for certain. But I'd like to think that, yeah, if he went to this fight, even if it's technical, he goes out there, is it three rounds or is it five rounds? Three rounds, which is a shame.

If he goes out there three, yeah, that kind of sucks. So he goes out there three rounds and he technically beats Mospital, which that's what the book he's think is going to happen. That's what I tend to think is going to happen, too. and you've never met a part-time bookie. So that's, I think what will happen. If he does that, I think that he gets a title shot. I mean, he's on a bajillion fight-win streak. It's, you know, whether you like him or not, it's hard to keep saying no.

You agree, Damon? Like, are we in this position? I mean, listen, and Oosman's still got to be Colby, and if Colby wins, you know they're going to run this thing back. So we have to wait to see how that plays up. But in your heart of hearts, are you thinking to yourself, Leon's got to finish Mazadol to get in the good grace of the UFC, or do you think a win here is enough?

His next fight will be for the belt. This sounds terrible, and it's not a knock on Leon and Edwards in any way, shape, or form. It's just the reality. If Leon gets a title shot based on anything in December, it's going to be because Kamar Usman beats Colby Covington for a second time, and he has no one left to fight. That's just the reality. Camar Usman has beaten every top-ranked welterweight out there right now.

If he beats Kobe Covington, and I believe he will, I think he'll actually dominate him more. time than he did the last time. If he beats Colby Covington, who's left? I mean, who's left? Who's he left? He beat Mazved all twice. He just beat Gilbert Burns this year. You know, Wonderboy lost to Gilbert Burns. It's not going to be Wonderboy.

You know, the only other guy left would be, you know, if Hamza Tamaev can go out on October 30th and destroy Li Jing Liang and then maybe pick up another win. You could argue maybe Kamsai gets the superstar treatment and he gets bounced right into a title shop. And even that, that seems still at least a year away. So who's left? So I think Leon winning in any way, shape, or form,

even if it's kind of like the Diaz fight, where he doesn't, you know, he wins, but it's not the greatest performance. And maybe there's like a closing moment where you're kind of like, oh, man, you almost let that one slip away. I think going on an 11 fight undefeated streak, and then Ustman being champion,

is how you get your rematch, because Ousman has no one left to fight. I mean, there's no one. I mean, he has laid waste to the Welterweight division, and he's now going back. back through the list again. And his fight with Leon was years ago. This was like, I think it was Leon's debut in the UFC.

So it's years and years ago. So they can resell that at least try to put that rematch together. So yeah, I think a win is enough as long as Kumar Usman stays champion. If Kumar Usman stays champion, I think Leon will get the title shot, no matter how he beats Mazvedal. Because the reality is, Usman doesn't have anyone else to fight. Yeah, and Mazadol wins, then I'll help. breaks loose, which in our sport, that's probably what's going to end up happening. And then, I don't even want to think what would happen to Mazadal won and then gets a third fight with

Usman after two decisive losses. But it is what it is. We could talk about this fight for another 45 minutes and all the different angles. But that goes down December 11th. It's something people are very excited about. A positive start to the show in terms of topic. Unfortunately, we're about to go in a different direction. Things are about to take a turn. But the point for round one goes to the defending champ, Damon Martin. Good stuff. Nathan getting the rusts off. He's getting going. He's starting to feel it.

So here we go. This is a sucky. Rigged. He's rigged. I mean, you've listened to the show long enough to know how this is going to go. So don't worry about that. But I wanted to be the first to sweep every round. To sweep every round?

I think we've done like this iteration of the show like for a couple of years, but it was multiple people to start. And I think only one time we didn't go to the knock our round because it was just so, such a vicious beating. We couldn't go. Black Friday is here at IKEA, and the clock is taking on savings you won't want to miss. Join IKEA family for free today and unlock deals on everything from holiday must-haves to cozy at-home essentials, all the little and big things you need to make this season shine. But don't wait. Like leftovers at midnight, our Black Friday offers won't last.

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It's such a massive story because we found out Luis Pena was arrested this past weekend in Florida after allegedly striking his partner with a close fist, continuing to sort of beat her up on the ground. Second woman allegedly tried to help. She was allegedly punched as well. And the police report was just a really tough read, if we're being honest. And then we find it on Tuesday, Penae was released from the UFC. Dana White reacted to it saying, that this is a really bad case. Police report painted a horrifying picture. He had to go.

And I just listened to the 911 audio, the TMZ released. It's, again, just adds to this sort of horrifying thing. So Pena's gone. Police report paints horrifying picture. He has to go, John Jones is arrested for alleged domestic violence. A police report attached to that whole thing was really awful to read as well. And he has since not been released by the UFC. So it was really fascinating about all this when Dana was asked about John Jones and this is a like if this is a sign of things to come in essence Dana said pretty much that this could happen to anybody this punishment could happen to anybody and unfortunately nobody followed up with Dan with Dan on that so Nathan let me start with you here because there's a lot to unpack there's a lot of unknowns

with this whole situation but here we have two fighters accused of really terrible things with awful pictures being painted in police reports one fighter is gone the other a former world champion, one of the greatest of all time, a polarizing figure, is as of right the second not gone. How is this a thing? How is this possible? I mean, we know the answer, right? It's because John Jones is a needle mover and Louise Peña isn't. That's, I mean, that's the only answer to this. John Jones brings the promotion money and Louise Peña doesn't. And that's what the UFC cares about. And these are not the first guys. Let's be honest about this. This isn't the first time this has happened. And the UFC, if it gets enough heat on something, they'll

address it in one way or another. They'll deflect in one way or another. But it, and don't get me wrong. These situations are bad. They're really bad. The Pena situation is really bad. And so is the John Jones situation. But the only. The only real difference here is that John Jones makes the UFC money. I mean, if for some reason people keep bringing it up over and over again, like this, that's a, I feel like this week with the release of Pena, like, Dana was trying to like, make an example out of him for what John did. Like, hey, we're still doing something, but we're not going to do it to this guy.

But look, we still, it's like when they did the code of conduct, thing. Like what happened to that? It's just like it's a, it's, it's theater for the MMA journalists, for the fans that actually care about that sort of thing. But the answer is that it's not going to change. I don't think. Yeah, David, I mean, I laid out the resumes between Pena and Jones, the weight discrepancies between the two are massive when it comes to these resumes. And I hate to present something like this in such a way, but Nathan already kind of laid it out there. Like, is this the answer? like Pena, not a ton of return, not a lot of ROI, if you will.

Jones potentially still some value, and it's, I guess, worth it for the UFC to wait and see how it plays in courts. But let's be honest, John, for as great as he is and the name value he carries, hasn't been a massive pay-per-view draw. Yeah, I mean, here's the reality. And one thing Nathan said that I loved, he said the theater of it all. That's 100% the truth. That is the reality of it, because that's what this comes down to. The problem is, is that there's just no consistency. There's zero consistency with the UFC when it comes to punishment.

You know, I mean, years ago, they fined Nate Diaz for making, I think he made a homophobic sluror. They find him. You know, they've done a couple of these things with releases where they've released a guy or a girl or whatever for, you know, outside the cage incident. But by and large, they are unbelievably inconsistent. And the reality is John Jones, based just on the things. he did before this arrest.

Could have easily gotten him tossed. I mean, we're doing multiple DUIs, multiple arrests for that, the hit and run. I mean, I honestly thought in 2015, we had to hit and run accident. And the details came out about that, how he fled the scene and there was a pregnant woman involved. I thought that's it, man. You don't come back from that. Like, you don't hit a pregnant woman with your car and run from the scene.

And people are just going to stand by you. Well, six years later, he's still in the UFC. He was still champion. And so you think what is the breaking point? And it sure doesn't seem like there is one. You would think domestic violence, which to me is one of the most abhorrent things you can do in life, much less being a professional freaking fighter and assaulting a woman, is the lowest of the low. Now, again, we don't know all the details.

I'm not trying to, you know, just crucify him in the court of public opinion. But, you know, I mean, when you read the police report, it's hard to believe that, you know, what happened was an accident. You know, it's hard to believe that something physical didn't go on there. And when you read that, you just wonder, like, what's the breaking point? I mean, really, like, what is the breaking point? If he, let's say he pleads no contest or, you know, he gets a lesser reduced charge or whatever, and ultimately, you know, it gets tossed out.

It doesn't mean it didn't mean it. You know, we've seen these cases a million times. I'm sure we've all seen that just the tragedy of domestic violence where, you know, cases are brought up and then they go away because maybe the victim doesn't want to press charges or they change their mind. I mean, this is a classic symptom of domestic violence. Doesn't mean it didn't happen. Doesn't mean that you're absolved from the crime.

And the UFC's essentially going silent on John Jones, then releasing Luis Pena, days after his arrest, speaks volumes about their inconsistency and what matters most of them. And that's just the reality because John Jones, you know, six arrests. or whatever it is now. And again, I'm not saying the guy shouldn't be given second chances. I'm all for second chances. I think one of the biggest problems we have in this country is people getting out of jail and then they're just damned for life that they can never come back from that, which is ridiculous. I think you can rehabilitate. I think you can recover and have a second

chance. But John, in his professional career, this is a lot different. In his professional career, he's been given second chances like five times already. You'd think this would be the straw that breaks the camel's back, but that's not the case. And so that's the problem. no consistency. And that's what my biggest issue. I don't have an issue with them releasing Luis Pena. You know what? Two arrests on domestic violence charges in the span of four months. And this last one, when you read the police report, you hear the 911 call, it's pretty bad. And I know we don't know what's going to happen in court, you know, but still, like at that

point, you know what? Okay, we got to be done. I don't disagree with the decision to release a guy like that. But to have this happen two weeks after John Jones, and they've never made a public statement about John Jones? I mean, Dana did the interview at the press where he said, I'm not even surprised anymore, but the UFC never disavowed the action. They never put out a statement like all organizations typically do saying, we do not, you know, we, you know, we, we understand that John Jones is involved in an incident. We, you know, we, we, we, we hate the idea of domestic violence. Any of that stuff, the typical thing you see from the NFL, NBA, other organizations, they never did that. And it's just like, it's, it just boggles my mind how you can act

so quickly in one instance and then just be so tone deaf in the other. It's just a wild. It's just wild the line of thinking in the comparisons and contrasting. It's just unbelievable. It's also something to think about too, though. It's not like I know we're harping on the UFC here, but it's really not just the UFC because Winklejohn going on Helwani's show and saying that, oh, he can't come and train here,

but we're still going to corner him and we'll still train him somewhere else. That's saving face too. Like, that is still not, he's not really punishing John. He's saving face and he's saying, oh, I have a wife and I have daughters. So you don't need a wife and daughters to know that domestic violence is wrong. So the whole thing, it's not just the UFC to me. There's a bunch of people that will excuse John Jones behavior for as long as, he is around.

Yeah, and then John's responses and everything. It's just, and I agree with some of the people. It's like, dude, actions speed louder of the words and people want to see some action here. So, David, let me ask you about this because Nathan makes an interesting point. Mike Winklejohn was on the MA hour, said essentially like everything Nathan said, but also said like, you know, the door's still open. He's not welcome back here until he stops drinking and cleans up his act. And this is obviously like a huge story yesterday and John responds.

and, you know, the news cycle is always hungry and looking for food, Damon, as you know. And, you know, I actually had some people DM me on Instagram being like, listen, I get it. But why would Mike Winklejohn go on the biggest MMA show on planet Earth and make this announcement and not just keep this to himself? That this is sort of a behind closed doors type of conversation that you have between yourself and the fighter. And it's not really his place to put that kind of information out in public like that. Of course, I get the PR side of where he's coming from. You don't want to have that sort of attachment to the story. But there are people that wondered if you should have kept this whole thing to himself.

So what was your reaction, Damon, to Mike revealing that to Ariel and the thousands upon thousands of people watching his show at the time? Well, you know, at first I thought, at first when I first heard, I was like, you know what, kudos. You know, good job, you know, making a call and standing by, you know, this is their biggest. star. This is their biggest, you know, their biggest draw. This is the guy who's been on that team and stayed with that team. A lot of people have left. Other guys have retired. You know, Cowboys now opened his own gym. A lot of guys have gone up there to train. John Jones is the face of Jackson Winklejohn for better or worse. And to say that guy's not allowed in the gym anymore, you know, when you first hear that, you're like, wow, you know what? That, at least one guy's

making a stand. You know what I mean? Like for all the ways the UFC is kind of dropping the ball on John Jones. At least he's making a stand. But then he immediately starts walking it back and he says oh well you know we may have him back if he stops drinking cleanses well what's the what's the you know what's the what's the what's the requirement like he stops drinking like is that it is that the requirement like we don't have to address the domestic violence part of this so you have women in your gym or I mean and then like like Nathan said like he has a wife and a daughter well I appreciate that but it doesn't mean you shouldn't be you know you know just just appalled by this behavior regardless and then and then and then telling and then they

put out a statement afterwards to ESPN saying, well, both coach Greg Jackson and Brandon Gibson are going to continue to work with him off-site, then there's no punishment. He's not, he can't walk through the doors for a couple months. Oh, man, the tragedy is that. Boy, I said, you really, you really told him. You really made him pay for it. So it ended up, I think they, honestly, I think they came out worse making the announcement than if they would have just said, hey, man, don't come in the gym for six months. Like, we can't have you in there. It's just not right right now and kept it quiet.

And then John comes out with a statement that makes himself painted as the victim, which is utterly ridiculous. I mean, this whole thing went sideways. Like, if you really meant it, if you really meant what you're saying, you would have talked to Greg Jackson, you would have talked to Brandon Gibson, you would have to talk to the team and said, listen, we can't keep dealing with it. We can't. The distraction and his behavior has gotten too bad. We can't have that in the gym. we need to ask him to leave, but we need to do it as a team. We need to vote. We need to vote. We need to whatever.

You know, we need to come together as a team and decide we can't be associated with John right now. And maybe a year from now, maybe that changes. And you don't need to say, well, maybe it's to, you know, just be done with it. And then maybe a year from now, if he really does redeem himself and he gets his life put in order, all these kind of things happen, then maybe you say, you know what, we've decided to invite John back in. At that point, people would probably be like, oh, you're giving him a second chance. He gave him a second chance before he finished his sentence. So, yeah, it's a terrible look, and it's honestly just a pointless announcement.

It does come off purely as a PR move now because you're saying he's not, he's banned, but he's not really banned. He's banned, but he can come back and he fixes his life. He's banned, but our coaches are going to still work with him in his garage as opposed to our gym. You're not bad. That's not a band whatsoever. A band is saying we're not going to invite him in the gym and we're not going to work with this guy anymore. That's what a band is.

I think making the announcement actually came off worse than actually, you know, just not saying anything. I completely agree. I didn't think about that at first, but then I guess the questions kept coming in and then kind of hearing Nathan sort of paint that picture as well. It's just, and then hearing you just go through the other details of it all and the statement to ESVN, it's just wild. This whole situation is handled piss poorly by absolutely everybody involved right now. It's just an unfortunate situation everywhere. and like I guess the thing I left yesterday with just trying to find some semblance of positivity in such a shitty situation.

I truly hope that John Jones is telling the truth. Like I really hope deep down he's telling the truth and that nothing happened. He didn't strike anybody. This is all out of proportion. I really hope that's the case. I don't, I mean, I can't say, but I really hope that we come out of this being like, okay, this is a misunderstanding. Just, I mean, I just don't want to.

I hate talking about it, and I don't want to see. It's just a horrifying story. This shouldn't happen to anybody, kids, wives, women at all. And. Well, the reality is we're never going to know. That's true. It was two people in the room. And even when the police came there and the police report, you read, you know, his fiance

said, oh, well, he got a little bit of physical. Like, she didn't want to talk about. I get it. I've lived around to the vesting rounds my entire life. And as I said, you know, and I kind of live a little bit closer to the Derek Lewis philosophy when, you know, Derek talks about, you know, when he kind of of last side Greg Hardy and he said, you know, I have zero talents. I grew up around it and I just can't be around that. You know, I kind of live in that same world. I grew up around it. I lived around it.

And so you'll never, we'll never know the truth. I mean, the reality is, even his fiance comes down and says, he never hit me. Yeah, but we hear that all the time for domestic violence victims. I mean, like I said, what happened in Greg Hardy's case? He got charged and the case got dismissed. There's photos out there. There's all kinds of evidence of what he, you know, what he allegedly did. But he didn't get convicted in court. So does it mean it didn't. happen, no. So that's the sad reality. We'll never know. I mean, his fiance can come out and put a statement out, a 10-page statement out tomorrow saying, here's what happened. And, you know, he never struck me, but it doesn't mean it didn't happen. It just means it will never know. We'll never know the

truth. Yeah. There's only a few select people actually will know and we'll always know and what happened that night in Las Vegas. But it is what it is. This has been a big topic. Second, or final quarter of 2021 and uh john jones is still in the ufc as for right now so we'll see what happens there um but let's let's transition more to the day-to-day mma events chatter we will go ahead and do that but the point for round two and these are like the worst points to give away Nathan gets it he made some really interesting points looked at it in a different way it's just it's like the worst point to get but it's still a point nonetheless yeah i'm stealing i'm stealing the theater of it all by the way nathan that was brilliant i did

like that line very much. I'll tell you, it's 100% accurate. Yeah, I mean, yeah, the UFC portion of this and how they're presenting it is what earned you the point. Like you said, it's always tough to transition, but this weekend, gentlemen, we got ourselves a double header. We got ourselves a double header. We have the UFC returning to the apex. We got UFC Vegas 40, and this is headlines, this is true, by Aspen Ladd versus Norma Dumont at 145 pounds. Then we have Bellator 268, the semifinals of the like, heavyweight Grand Prix. We got Vadim Nemcov versus tournament alternate Julius and Glickis. That is the main event for the title. And then we got Corey Anderson versus Ryan Bader in

the co-mate event. Winners will meet next year in the finals at some point. There's other interesting matchups and storylines on both of these cards if you really dig deep, but not a ton of buzz quite frankly around either of these events. So Nathan, we're going to go back to you. So if you're television or wherever you're at, your laptop or whatever, only allowed you to watch one of these events. And you couldn't watch the other. You couldn't go on social media and follow along with the other card. You couldn't even know what happens for the next 48 hours. This is your weekend MMA fix. Choose one. What are you going with? Does the UFC even have a chance in your eyes? No. Honestly, I'm a, I'm an MMA degenerate. I'd really watch anything.

And, you know, this is a potential, just skip it all sort of a week for me. but Bellator does have the better card. And that's not saying much at all. I mean, there's no way around it. This is the worst UFC card in recent memory. I think A.K. Lee said it recently that there's not a single ranked fighter on this card, outside of Aspen Ladd, who's not fighting in the weight class that she's ranked in. But there's some stuff on Bellator that's interesting.

I think Corey Anderson and Ryan Bader. is interesting. There's a backstory there with them training together. There's the story of Anderson at odds at the UFC and finding a new home with Bellator and being successful there. And he had a great line I thought when he said the UFC gave him a career and Bellator gave him a life. I mean, that's good stuff. That's like, that's, he's selling me on it. There's something there. From fan standpoint, that's something. something to lean on. You know, the sport of MMA thrives on these stories. And we sort of keep talking about this, right? Like, this will be Leon Edwards' biggest fight because of the storyline. And

you don't need to really even sell this. But like, the promotion, you know, the UFC machine, they can toss that together real easy for that three piece in a soda and do it. This is just all on Anderson's doing. I mean, it's kind of, you know, it's kind of, you know, it's. a story of like to me it's like a a fuck you to your boss and then you go and you find work somewhere else and you're happier and uh you're more successful and so that's what it could be for him if he wins so i think that's probably the the best fight of the weekend what do you think david like i know the ufc card is is not good on paper um Bellator card has some interesting ones, but like top to bottom, if we're talking weight of these fights,

it's pretty comparable if we're being honest. But little stakes in the UFC card, but there's entertainment potential certainly. If you really look at these matchups, there's some really good pieces of matchmaking here. Just not really big name. But to you, is this an easy Bellator pick for you? It is because of the one fight. And that comes down to Ryan Bader and Corey Anderson. You listen, I, Vadim Knav.

I think it's one of the best light heavyweights in the world, and it's always fun to watch him fight. But got to be honest, if it was him and Anthony Johnson, we'd be all buzzing about that fight. Unfortunately, it's not, and no offense whatsoever to Julius Anglicas. But, you know, until about three weeks ago, most people had never heard his name, much less believe he has a great shot of beating Vadim Dimkoff. And if he does somehow pull off the upset, it would be one of the greatest upsets in the history of the sport. Because this guy, you know, in theory has no business even being in there with Vadeem Knimkov. So the reality is, Corey Anderson and Ryan Bader is the best fight of the weekend. And I argue this all the time.

I'm a fan of great fun fights. I love fun fights. Julian Marquez and Jordan Wright is going to be fun for about the two minutes and 30 seconds it probably lasts. It's going to be a great fight. You know, Minot Fioriot who's fighting Myra Buenos Silva. That's a fun fight. Fioriott is a great prospect. And right up there, I think, with Casey O'Neill, as far as like the best flyweight prospects in our sport right now.

Jim Miller, legend, love Jim, as Joe Silva called him. Pardon my language, Jim fucking Miller. You know, great. I love seeing Jim fight. But the reality is that I say this all the time, people argue with me, you know, some of the purest, some of the people who just love the sport in general, and I love the sport. I've been covered it for 20 years. Stakes matter.

Stakes matter. I love fun fights. I love wars, but afterwards we're buzzing about a great fight. It goes away in a week. It goes away in two weeks. When there are stakes involved, It matters when you have two ranked guys or two rank girls fighting where the winner is going to be a title contender or, again, obviously a title fight, but or there's a, or as Nathan mentioned, there's an actual storyline built in. Like there's some real heat between people.

Stakes matter. The UFC card has literally zero stakes. None. None whatsoever. Jim Miller might be able to set a couple more records because he's Jim fucking Miller. Carlos Felipe apparently really doesn't like Andre Arlowski, but does it matter? Aspen Ladd is one of the last people in the world who hasn't fought up Andanunez, and now apparently she's got to have to do her featherweight because she can't make Bannawayne anymore.

And she's in a division where there's no rankings because there's no fighters. So there's zero stakes. There's none. At least Bellator legitimately has three ranked light heavyweights at the top of the card. Vindem Knoff, and this is according to the MMA fighting global MMA rank, it's the best rankings in the world. Vadine Mnivok is the top 10 light heavyweight. Ryan Bader is the top 10 light heavyweight.

Corey Anderson is the top 10 light heavyweight. There are stakes involved in those fights. There is a title fight involved. And there is a Grand Prix, which unfortunately has kind of fallen apart a bit by now because we've missed that on Yolo Romero and Anthony Johnson getting to this point in the tournament. But we have a potential of, you know, some great. light heavyweight fight so the stakes matter and so by that regard bellator clearly gets the win in terms of quality of of uh of a of card overall but again uh to kind of agree with my opponent here

neither one is really that strong uh i made a job i made a joke the other day in one of our meetings and i'll say it publicly now if you put both of these cards together it's kind of like what george costanza said on seinfeld if you take everything i've done in my life and boil it down to one day It looks decent. If you take both of these cards to combine them, you might get a decent card. You know, at least the two-fives. Maybe you're kind of interested in Nassman Ladd and whatever. But, yeah, I mean, it's a barren wasteland this weekend.

We've got to be honest. But ultimately, the stakes matter. And the stakes are with Bellator. Yeah. Yeah. And if you remember at the end of that episode, George is naked in the bathroom stall. And the girl says, I told you this city would eat you a lot.

That's really funny. And you know what? Out of nowhere, there's actually stakes in the Benson-Henderson Brent Primus fight because Patricia Pipple's not a champion anymore. His brother's about to fight for a title against Peter Quilly. So now, I mean, somehow Benson Henderson could earn a title shot if he beats Brent Primus on Saturday. I mean, what a wild sport that we are a part of.

Of course, we'll have you covered over on M. May fighting with both of those cards. I like the Jim Miller fight. I think he's got his hands full with Eric Gonzalez. dude is an absolute terror. That's a great piece of business. I really like that fight. No stakes, but it's just a really interesting matchup, especially with the 38 fight UFC discrepancy there. But I believe we're going to be at the Bellator event.

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Final round of regulation next, but the point for round three goes to, when you quote Seinfeld, you just win the round. So Damon is up two to one. And I'm very excited for this, because we haven't done this in a while. We haven't done a quick hits, Poperi, kind of around in a minute. And we're running a little low on time here. So we're going to get to as many of these as we can.

But I do want to touch on, because we haven't talked about it yet, the fallout of UFC Vegas 39. And Marina, Haredegis is this big win over McKenzie Dern. And what this does to things at 150 pounds. Of course, we got Rosamami Unis versus Zhang Wei for the 115 pound title at UFC 268. We got Carla Sparza, who everyone feels should be next in line. Dana White's still not ready to say as much. He's even nudging her, giving the little, come on, dude, you gotta take another fight.

Like, you should probably take another fight here. Marina and pretty much all fans of stand-up wars want to see her fight, Yawani and Jacek, who hasn't competed since that crazy fight with Waley last year because she's outliving her best life and make it a bunch of money on social media and doing a million different things, and she doesn't seem to be in a huge rush to come back. And hopefully we get some answers on that soon. But Nathan, let me ask you this. What do you think happens first?

Yawani and Jacek comes back to the UFC and fights anybody at all. or Carla Asparza fights for a UFC title? Honestly, I think Yawanna fights before Asparza. I think the difference maker here is maybe Yawanna doesn't want to fight right now. She's doing something else. But if she wants to fight, it's just a phone call away. And the UFC will put it together. The UFC actively does not want to book Asparza and Nami Unas, which is,

It's silly because, you know, we keep coming back to this point. There is a built-in storyline here with as far as of being the last person to, or not the last person to beat Rose, but there's something there. So I think that you could drum up interest in it, and I don't see why they wouldn't make it, but, you know, Dana going out and saying he doesn't want it, that's just what it is. So I think probably, I think Yowana probably fights before. Yeah, you see, I mean, you speak Dana White pretty well, Nathan. It's, it's, he never really says anything, but it's, it's pretty easy to decipher from time to time if you really think about it.

But what do you think, David? I mean, you spoke to Carla. I've spoken to Carla recently, and you've spoken to Yana not that long ago. And what do you think happens here? Like, do you think we see Yawani and Jacek fight somebody in the UFC before Carla gets a title shot? Or do you think the UFC is finally just going to be like, we got no choice? We have to throw in there despite Dana never saying those words. No, I mean, I agree.

I think Yolana fighting first is more likely, and there's a couple of reasons for that. One, Yonana just has to say I want to fight, and she fights. I mean, they tried to book her in July. And when I talked to Yana, they tried to book her in July. She just didn't have enough time to get over to the States to put her training camp together at American Top Team. She was back at American Top Team right before the summer, working out and training a little bit, and hoping to get a fight. she wanted, you know, Zhang Wei Lee or Rose, they end up booking that rematch instead, which

I think everyone kind of agrees didn't really need to happen. I mean, you know, when you get, you know, knocked out in a minute, 12 or whatever it was, you don't really deserve an immediate rematch even if you were a champion unless you were a long-reaning champion, which Zhang Wei Li was not. So I think you would have seen Yuanah back already if she could have fought Rose and or Wei. So I think that's it. She has needed to say I want to fight.

The other problem that Rose is working, or excuse me, the other problem that Carl is working against her beyond the public, which is that, you know, kind of like what Leon Edwards deals with. There's no one real. I mean, there's people, there's hardcore fans like us shouting to the heaven saying she's done more than enough to deserve it. Absolutely. Carla Desparsa 100% deserves a title shot. The problem is the crowd at large is not doing that.

There's not that buzz on social media saying, man, Carla got screwed. She really deserves this. There's just not that buzz there for her. And the other problem is, and this is from my conversation with Carla, she's getting married in May. She's got a wedding coming up in May. She wants to fight before that. If this starts getting dragged out or whatever, and it gets close to that, she's not going to delay her wedding. She's got a wedding in May. It's already scheduled. So if they don't give her the title shot before that, then we're talking about after that. And that's, I mean, we can be talking about a year

from now, you know what I mean? So I think that's the problem we're dealing with here. And even though Carla has a win of her Marina Rodriguez, you know, we're all, I said it before. We're all guilty of recency bias. Marina just went out and had a spectacular performance against McKinsey Dern. And you know if McKinsey had won, they would have been pushing her hardcore to the title because McKinsey is a star on the rise. And rightfully so, McKinsey looked fantastic leading into that fight. She gets beat for the better part of four rounds by Marina Rodriguez. And then Marina also fights her way out of that, you know, terrible position on the ground with McKinsey, which has kind of been her weak spot. She fights out of that and wins a fight

impressively. Don't tell me for a second that you don't need the UFC wouldn't try to sell that and say, oh, well, she's improved a lot since that Carla Sparsify. That fight against McKinsey Durn really showed us something. We're going to give her the title shot. We've seen it happen a million times, okay? So, Yawanna, all she has to do is say, I'll fight. That's it. I'll fight. And she's back. And that's it. So, yeah, Carla, unfortunately, her best shot was right now. She had the buzz coming out that Yan-Zhao Nan fight, And she just absolutely demolished that girl. And then she has the dominant win of her rose. She didn't get it now.

You know, the interest in that fight is going to go away day by day. And it's already going away. We've got to be honest. Yeah, I feel like she's going to have to fight Ewanah right now. Like, try to get that one back. She needed to pull a Giuliana Pena and just turn heel and start talking that shit. Yeah. That's what she needed to do.

Jose Young's joke that she should have, she should have, like, called Paul Felder out and been like, what kind of stupid suit are you wearing? And just like kind of just went full on heel on him, which would have been hilarious. But so that's an interesting start. I do want to touch out one more thing because I thought this is a pretty fascinating conversation. And I'll start back with you, Damon. Francis Ngano did an interview yesterday. You and I have been trying to book this interview for a long time.

But good old Ariel comes in and gets it done on the biggest show in the world. And I don't blame him. But so he goes on the M. He had a lot to say about his current contract. He's obviously not overly enthusiastic. He addressed the whole interim title situation with Cyril Ghan and Derek Lewis, the upcoming fight with Cyril Ghan, and he doesn't feel at the end, I guess the big conclusion is that the UFC wants to be in the Francis and Ghanu business.

Like he's not getting that big push, which is insane to me, Damon, because he's one of the most terrifying people to look at on planet Earth. And his finishes, the way he puts people down, it just adds like a thousand exclamation points. If you're talking about promotional stuff in sports and doing it easy, France and Ghana might be the easiest athlete to promote in the world. And they're not doing it. I truly do not understand this, Damon, because this guy's got money written all over them,

and it's so easy to get that return on investment, and they're not doing it. So, of course, David, as you know in this sport, the UFC has their story about Francis and dealing with his manager and so forth and so on. Francis has his team, has their story about where this all went wrong, and somewhere in the middle, Damon, is the truth, right? Like, do you have any read on this? Like, when you heard Francis and kind of hear where the UFC's coming from,

where is the disconnect here in your eyes? Well, you know, generally with these kind of situations, you try to look at it nuance, like you said. You know, there's one side, there's the other side, and somewhere in the middle lies the truth. Unfortunately, this particular instance, I am 100% on Team Francis in Gano because I don't believe he's done anything wrong whatsoever

except gone out there and, you know, knocked his opponent's head, into the third round every time he steps into the cage, he deserves better than what they're doing for him. I mean, that's just the reality. He beats Steve Mioch, which arguably the greatest heavyweight of all time, goes out there and beats him in the second round.

Avenges his worst loss, just a lopsided, terrible fight against Steve Ate the first time, comes back, avenges that loss, knocks out arguably the greatest heavyweight of all time, in arguably the greatest UFC heavyweight of all time, just based on title of defense. The Stepe has definitely cinched up that title. goes out and does that and then, you know, it's almost like crickets.

And then three months later you're saying because the guy doesn't want to fight, you're trying to sell us on the interim title, which is utterly, utterly ridiculous. I mean, it is quite possibly the dumbest interim title fight in the history of sport. Now, this is none of this is surreal gone's fault, of course, but the UFC has done Francis and Ghanu's so dirty. It's just, I mean, it's ridiculous. Now, Francis will tell you. I've interviewed Francis. I interviewed him, you know, before and after the title fight with

Steve Bay. Francis will be the first one to tell you after that Steve Bay fight, it woke him up to reality. He was getting a big head on his shoulders. Everything that Dana kind of said about him at that point, he was getting a bit of an ego and, you know, kind of thought like, you know, his stuff didn't stink, like all that kind of stuff. That was true. Francis would be the first to admit. He got a big head on his shoulders and he didn't, he didn't listen to his coaches. He wasn't doing what he should have been doing. And he had to get humbled. And they got humbled, the big, big way. When you talk to Francis now, not only is he like the nicest guy in the world, he is one of the most marketable fighters in the history of the sport,

his story coming from Cameroon to France, living homeless, trying to be a boxer, becoming a mixed martial artist, and then four years later, five years later, whatever it's been, becoming UFC heavyweight champion, one of the most feared guys on the planet. And we all know the heavyweight division, for better or worse, always gets eyeballs. I mean, people love heavyweights. Look at Tyson, Fierre, and Deonté Wilder this past weekend. Was that the most skilled boxing match in history?

No, I guarantee there's lighter weight classes to put on more skilled boxing matches. But it was freaking awesome. It was one of the greatest fights in bar. I love that match. You know what I mean? We love great heavyweight fights. They blown it. The UFC has blown it.

Like, they completely screwed the pooch on this one. They have, they have, you, it's impossible to quantify how badly they've mucked up this situation by not only just throwing money at, for instance, say, how much do you want? here's a blank check and we'll sign it because we want you to be part of our organization for years to come. They blew it from a marketing standpoint. They should have had the embedded cameras

following him to go home to Cameroon. There should have been a freaking UFC special. The UFC champion goes home to Cameroon. They should have done a freaking half hour special on ESPN plus with him going home. They didn't do that. And then three months later, you're trying to sell us on a bill on a card saying he wanted

to go on vacation. He can call us what he wants to fight. Guess what, Dana? He fought. three freaking months ago. Yeah, it's, I mean, like I said, I try to see both sides of the issue, and I try to at least somewhat argue both sides of the issue. This time, I'm 100% team Ingano. What do you think, David? Because I remember hearing Jim Cornett, the former pro wrestling manager, talk about

this. And he talked about heels and professional wrestling. And the reason that tickets get sold, it's because you find a guy, especially in a heel role, not saying that Ingano is a heel, but just you find a guy in the world where if fans see this guy walk towards them, they're like, I would never in a million years want to fight that guy because he would kick the living hell out of me. And I feel like Francis Ngano is the antithesis of that in the UFC. And it turns out like, David said, he's the sweetest guy in the world. And he's got a tremendous story.

But we're trying to, we already know that. But the casual viewer, the ones that they're trying to bring in, all you need to see is a picture of this guy. and you're like, oh my God, who the hell is that dude? And for some reason, the UFC cannot promote this guy. He should be one of the biggest stars in the sport. And now we're hearing that the issues they're having behind the scenes of the UFC, which obviously this is not the first time we've heard this, and it certainly won't be the last.

But when you heard Francis kind of talk about his struggles and the things he's dealing with behind the scenes with the UFC, how did you react to all of that? What were your thoughts? Listen, Francis Inganu has the potential. to be the biggest heavyweight superstar the UFC has ever had. Like you said, he's got to look. He's, and this is not just pro wrestling,

but like Vince McMahon, very famously, loved those big, scary guys. They look like action figures or superheroes. There's a reason because those people sell tickets. You look at them and they're almost inhuman. They look like something that you could only imagine in a comic book or something. But the thing that was most interesting to me was that Francis, he seems like the one quote that he said was when Ariel asked him, what do you want in like a perfect world?

What does Francis and Ghanu get from the UFC? And his response was respect. That's it. That's not too much to ask for. He didn't say a number. He didn't say he wanted more money. He didn't say he wanted a promotional push. He said he wanted respect.

And that's the same thing that Cory Anderson said. He said he loved when he got to Bellator and Scott Coker called him a few hours later and said, I want to meet with you and I want to talk to you. And they just talked. There was no specific thing they talked about. But all the while, when Corey was in the UFC, He couldn't get just a moment of time from Hunter Campbell, from any of the guys. Obviously, you know, not the big guy of stairs.

But like, it seems very reasonable for somebody like Francis and Ghanu to get respect, especially when you're the baddest man on the planet. It seems silly that they can't somehow figure that out. Just wild. It's just so easy. It makes no sense to me. but hey, we're not promoters. We don't know shit about this business, right, guys?

Right, Dana. Right, Dana. We don't know shit about the business. So why are we even talking about it? But great point, Nathan. We're going to wrap up this final round with that. And the respect factor puts you over the hump in a tremendous fourth round. We're going to go to the knock-ar round. Shocker.

This never happens on the show. We're going to have one question. Each gentleman's going to have 60 seconds to answer said question. They get the same question here. I was torn between two. I'm just going to land on the show. one because the fun little talking points with some barbershop conversation after that 60 seconds we will announce a winner based on the response and then we'll make the big announcement in terms of

where the show's going to go for the fourth quarter of 2021 but damon you are the man you got the votes you're going first or you're passing on over to nathan i will defer uh to the to the to the rock star who is appearing on our show uh because he deserves that and and also before we get to the final votes reading nathan you bethick you But, man, I'm very impressed. Like I said, you never know what you're going to get when you get it. Somebody you're not familiar with, dude. You brought it.

Great job, man. Really. I'm super impressed. I appreciate it. It's all respect here. You know, this is not like, this is not a matchup with Jedmishu. It's nothing but respect you. I love it so much.

So, all right. So this is a classic barbershop kind of question, Nathan. So we're going to start off with you. And maybe Damon deferring. Maybe it's the wrong way, but maybe you have differing opinions and different view sets. So we're getting to that point. where award season is around the corner and the fight of the year race, at least as of right now,

seems to be down to two men heading into the final months of the year who both have giant fights coming up. It appears that it's between Kamar Usman, who has the two title defenses, two finishes against Gilbert Burns, knockout of the year contender gets Jorge Mazadol. He's getting ready obviously to fight Colby Covington at UFC 268. And then we have Dustin Porre who has two finishes of Connor McGregor. He's getting ready to challenge Charles. Charles Olivera for the lightweight title at UFC 269. So the question is, let's say both guys win the same way. Either both win by decision, both win by finish.

Who in your opinion will be the fighter of the year in 2021? So I guess in a simpler way, as of right now, who is the fighter of the year? Is it Kamara Usman or is it Dustin Poirier? Or are you willing to make the case for somebody else besides those two gentlemen? One minute on the clock. Your time starts now. So if we're just ranking Fighter of the Year based solely on what these guys do in the cage, this has nothing to do with the promotion. This has nothing to do with popularity.

I think it's got to be Kamara Usman. And it's tough because Kamar Usman has fought Jorge Mosvidal twice and doesn't. Justin Porreier has fought Connor McGregor twice. But I think I'm even, you know, I'm looking at it just in the year, but I'm also looking at Kamara Usman getting to that point of all-time great. And no disrespect to Dustin Porriere because I love Dustin Porriere, and I actually think that he's likely to win his fight with Charles Olivera. but I think Kamara Usman, it's time to start putting him

10 seconds. In the conversations with George St. Pierre and the other greats in MMA. All right. Kamara, one vote for Kamara Usman. So Damon, same question. This is going to be a, I have a feeling just based on the odds and how we all believe these fights are going to play out.

This will be a greater debate come the end of the year, but it's one maybe we can get ahead of right now. So we got Kamar Usman, we got Dustin Pori. seems like that is 1A and 1B in this fighter of the year conversation right now, but maybe there's somebody else out there that maybe there's a Kevin Holland-esque figure out there that no one's talking about right now for Fighter of the Year. So one minute on the clock, Damon. Is it Ushman?

Is it Porre? Is it somebody else? Your time starts now. It's Kamar Usman. And to me, it's not really all that close. And that's not a knock whatsoever on Dustin Porre. It's just based on level of competition. Dustin being Conner the first time was incredibly impressive because it was avenging a past loss.

And he did it in really a dominant fashion, knocked him out in the second round. That was a great performance. The second fight, unfortunately, ended with the broken leg. Now, Dustin was winning. Do I believe Dustin would have won that fight? 100% I believe he would have won that fight. But it still had some controversy around it.

So Dustin, getting a winner of Charles Olivero will be very impressive, but still not quite the same as going out and beating, let's say, a Habib Narragamette off. You know, it's not quite that level of, of, you know, accomplishment at this point. So it's Usman. You beat Gilbert Burns, who is, what, number two or whatever at Welterweight?

I mean, this guy, number three, whatever it is. Unbelievable welterweight. Usman's has only lost the past couple years. He just beat Wonderboy. We know how good Gilbert Burns is. Ten seconds. You smoke Jorge Mazinol, knock him out, and then you go out and beat Kobe Covington.

That's three top five welterweights in a row. It's Usman, hands down. All right. So we have two votes for Usman. I'm with you guys. I think it's definitely Ustman. I understand the Porre talk, and who knows how the casuals will look at it come the end of the air.

And this is a recency-biased sport, and Porre is actually the last man to fight between those two guys. So maybe Porre and his performance over Alvara will be just enough in a recency-biased sport to get him over the hump. But we shall see. But now we have to crown a winner of this episode of Between the Links, and this is a little tough because you both picked the same answer.

But the winner... I love the Red Sox. Did I mention that, though? I love the Red Sox. series? I don't know. Just, well, okay. Sorry. Go ahead. Now I have to re-weigh all this. The winner of this week's

between the legs is it's Damon Martin only because of the accuracy in the timeline for Usman. That's it. That's literally the only thing. So David gets the victory with that. 30 seconds, my friend, to talk about whatever you want to talk about, good, bad, and different.

Well, I'd tell you what. I just want to actually, you know, I'm going to take my 30 seconds applauding my opponent because you really brought it, man. I was really impressed by everything, the arguments you made. I'm totally stealing your theater of the moment. I guarantee you I will put that in one of my articles coming up, so be on the lookout for that. I'm absolutely telling you ahead of time of stealing that line. And great job, man. You know, what's fun about this is, you know, I'm good friends with, you know, I've been around some musicians before.

Like I'm buddies with the guy Phil who played bass for the band Taproot. I've been around them on tour. And I know that they were huge fight fans. I remember talking to Jared Leto, who was on a bus with him one time. And he was like, they were watching UFC fights and talking about it. I hung out with Jamie Joste, done his podcast, huge fight fans. So I'm always, I'm a big pop culture guy. I love music, worked in a music store during college.

So I just love seeing the crossover when we see fans coming in from all walks of life. And I love seeing stuff like this. So I'm just paying homage to my opponent today because it's awesome to see people getting involved in sport and people being big fans, and you're obviously a huge fan. I'd love hearing that. And, uh, man, thanks for doing this. I had a blast. And hopefully you'll come back again because, uh, man, I tell you what, I think Jed, I think Jed, I think Jed has a chance. I'm just saying it right now. I think Jed, I think this would have been, I think this wouldn't have made it to the knockout round. I think it would have been dead. You had to face me today, so I understand it's a little

tougher, a little tougher matchup, but come back because I think you did a fantastic job. Thank you. I appreciate that. I'll come back. I'll do like a bounce back fight with Jed, something easier, pull me up back into the rankings, and then I'll come. I'll get to you. I love it. Nathan, I appreciate you jumping on, man. Like Damon said, you did a hell of a job. Where can we find you, man? You're on tour. I believe you're heading to the greatest state in the world. Massachusetts, it's relatively soon, if memory serves me correctly. But where can we find information? Where can we get tickets to see you play and find your music, so forth and so on? Yeah, across every platform, it's waves, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, all that shit. And I'm on tour right now, and we'll be on tour in the U.S. until November 20th, probably coming to your city. So just look it up. There you go. And real quick, before we go, big announcement, big announcement, because things have been in chambles on VTL.

People keep asking, who's the freaking champion? Who's going to walk into 2022 is the actual champion? I feel like we have eight friggin champions right now. So what we're going to do is, and I'm going to put Damon on the spot right now, so get ready, Damon. Beginning. UFC 268 fight week, we're going to have ourselves our first ever BTL tournament of champions. Eight competitors, past champs, past winners will all be a part of it. It's going to be a single elimination tournament.

And the finals will wrap up the week after the final UFC pay-per-view of the year, UFC 269. Winner of the tournament enters the new year as the full-fledged, undisputed BTL champion because we have so many champions right now. We have Phoenix Carnarvali, and Jed thinks he's the champion, and Cody Stamon's a champion. There's so many champions that make literally no sense right now.

Damon's a champion. Everyone's a champion. So no more. It's time to get organized. Time for some chaos. We'll have a draft. We'll do brackets, et cetera. This will be a big deal.

We will determine who is the best debater in MMA media before this year is over. I can guarantee you that. So stay tuned for that. Damon, are you in? Are you in? Do you want a part of this? Of course I want a part of this. And you can just go ahead and start polishing up that title right now and sending it to Columbus, Ohio.

Go ahead and get ready. So now we get four people. Now we get four people. So, you know what, I'm going to break down the fourth wall. We haven't even filled the spot yet. Damon's in. Jed is in. James Lynch is in.

And Phoenix Carnivali, the goat of BTL in a lot of people's minds. She is in as well. So details to follow. We still get to fill a few more spots. I think we've got a couple pretty easily. I think AK wants a chance of redemption. Jose will probably want to pee, so we'll figure this all out. But right before UFC 268 kicks off,

that's when this tournament will kick off. So stay tuned for all that. We'll be back again next week with a fun matchup. Damon against TBD. Maybe it'll be a little practice. Damon versus Jed get a little momentum heading into the tournament. But until that, thank you very much for watching for Damon. I am Mike.

We'll see it back once again between the legs. Good night, everybody. network.