MMA Fighting - Between the Links: Episode 1 | Jon Jones vs. Dana White and More

Episode Date: June 2, 2020

Check out the debut episode of MMA Fighting's newest debate show, Between the Links. Host Mike Heck is joined by Jose Youngs and Alex K. Lee to discuss Jon Jones vs. Dana White and the UFC, the three stars for this past weekend's UFC on ESPN 9 event, and a look ahead to UFC 250. Follow Mike Heck: @MikeHeck_JR Follow José Youngs: @JoseYoungs Follow Alexander K. Lee: @AlexanderKLee Subscribe: http://goo.gl/dYpsgH Check out our full video catalog: http://goo.gl/u8VvLi Visit our playlists: http://goo.gl/eFhsvM Like MMAF on Facebook: http://goo.gl/uhdg7Z Follow on Twitter: http://goo.gl/nOATUI Read More: http://www.mmafighting.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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My name is Mike Heck. Thank you all for joining us. You may be seeing this pop up on the site or on our YouTube page or on the podcast network. You can be thinking to yourself, what the heck is between the links. But to give a brief overview, I've hosted a couple of different iterations of the show over the years before I joined the team over here. But in essence, this is a panel slash debate type of show discussing the, biggest news going on in the world of mixed martial arts. This has always been a lot of fun to do no matter how I've put this all together. And this show will be released on Tuesdays right here on

MMAfighting.com as you're finding this today. And I'm sure you guys are all going to figure out what we're doing as we move along. So let us introduce the panel for the week to discuss and kind of battle it out for intellectual supremacy on the show this week. First, back from Las Vegas, back from covering UFC on ESPN 9 in Las Vegas, the host of the A-Side live chat right here. here on MAAfighting.com. Jose Youngs, how are you, sir? I'm great, and I'm really glad you said it was a battle of the intellectual,

which means I'm already winning because I don't like bad music, like A.K. Lee. So one point, Jose. There we go. And also joining us has been my co-matchmaker for a little while, and I like to call him the five-tool utility player for MMAFighting.com. Mr. Alex K. Lee, greatest taste of music I've ever heard.

How are you, sir? Limbiscuit. Cream. Creed, Nickelback, three of the greatest fans ever, brother.

I don't know what to tell you. The numbers don't lie. I'm doing great. I'm doing great. I mean, I listened to some nickel back this morning, so, you know, obviously I couldn't be doing better.

You know, let's see, as most Canadians do, that's how we start our day. So I could not be doing better. You know, it's a little bit crazy, stuff going on the world today.

Definitely affecting, I think, my mood and everyone else's, but happy to be here with you guys and, you know, doing this little show here. Absolutely. And there's,

really only one way we can begin the show this week, and that is with the biggest story in the sport, John Jones. This story continues to add different layers and elements as the days go on. But this really took off on Friday of last week. As you all know by now, John Jones and Francis and Ghanu, they're looking to collide in a heavyweight bout. And we've been following along with the story on Twitter, where John and Francis both are very frustrated because the UFC is not willing to pay more to get this fight on the books. Dana White has said that John wants Deonté Wilder money, $20 to $30 million. John seems to refute that fact.

And Dana got more into it after the event on Saturday. And John Jones has seemingly had enough of it all. He asked for his release on a couple of occasions. And on Sunday, John said he was going to vacate the UFC light heavyweight title. There is a lot to unpack here, gentlemen. This is just, you know, the tip of the iceberg. Jose, let's start with you. you were there for the whole Dana White side of things from Friday into Saturday.

So let's just go this route. Do you believe in your heart of hearts that John Jones will follow through with this, that he is ready to vacate his title in this fight against the UFC and Dana White? I think he's, I don't think he will, but I believe if he did, it wouldn't surprise me. John Jones is a proud man, him and Dana White have butted heads numerous times. he's been both the company man and the one that's quote unquote ruined a fight card i remember when dana white and john jones had that big falling out when he wouldn't fight chel son on a short notice after dan henderson pulled out and they canceled an entire card but then at the same time he stepped up

and fought over and seen prune on short notice wasn't the best performance but he did say it was kind of to make up for the chel sunner thing at the same time dan white moves an entire card from las Vegas to Englewood, California. I can't remember. UFC 232, I believe, was the card. But if this is really where it's leading,

I have a feeling that John Jones could vacate the title, but I don't think his time in the UFC is done. He could very well come back, a la when Randy Coutor vacated his title or gave the title. I think it was in 2007 because he wanted to fight Fador, and then eventually he came back and got that fight against

Brock Lesnar. But if, I don't think he will, but I firmly believe John Jones when he says he would vacate the title to make the Reyes Jan Belhoves fight. AK, what do you think? No, I do not think he is going to vacate.

However, that's only because I think the UFC will find some way to strip him of the title. I believe they will want to set up the Jan Blahovitz Dominic Reyes fight and they'll do that thing where they'll say as soon as this fight starts, John Jones is no longer the light heavyweight champion. So I

I don't think they're going to do the interim thing. I think they're going to set up another title fight, and they're going to use that as his cues to take the belt off from him. They'll cite some sort of vague, you know, he's not his conduct online, maybe his social media, you know, comments made on social media show he's not committed to defending his title, and thus we will now take the title away from him.

They'll find some way to do it. But I don't think he, what I'm trying to say is, you know, I don't think he was serious about vacating. I think if it were up to him, it is kind of a negotiating tactic. But I think he might have taken it he's taking it to another level with some of the comments he's made. And I'm sure Dana White

and Hunter Campbell and all the other guys at the UFC are trying to maintain a level head, but I do wonder how far they can be pushed before, one, having to react and also, you know, keeping the division moving with guys who deserve a title shot. So no, I think we'll see him get stripped, not vacate, and he won't vacate. We always try to find, like, different narratives of these situations. And part of me is thinking that this is actually very brilliant on John, because, one, he's become the biggest story in MMA, and it seems like he's doing it for the right reasons, Plus, you know, when he has had some of the vocal members, you know, of the media on his side, like when was the last time that has happened?

It seems like, you know, a lot of these writers are writing long-forb features about how John Jones is correct in the situation. I can't remember the last time that's happened. And another reason is, you know, Dana has stated that he doesn't want John Jones to go up to heavyweight because he might want to become the champion up there. And if he does, he's not really a fan of someone tying up to constantly moving divisions. This would make things easier for a move up to heavyweight for John. because it takes away another hurdle. But Alex, back to you.

Let's just say the first round of a metaphorical fight between John Jones and Dana White and the UFC is now in the books. We're getting ready for round two. How are you scoring the opening round in a 10-point must system? I'm going to go, gosh. You know, I just don't feel like the UFC ever really loses these battles.

So my first thing was to say, I really like a lot of the things John had said. I don't necessarily, you know, I like the message. I don't necessarily approve of those. the messenger, I feel like this is a Jose Canseco steroid situation where we may not want to listen based on who it is, but there's certainly some truth amidst, you know, some of the trash talk and possibly half-truths that are in there. So I'm going to go 10-9 for the UFC because, again, I just don't know how much leverage John Jones has. The threats are very exciting to read.

You know, again, some of the points are very valid. But in these battles, man, the UFC always wins. So maybe I'm, maybe I'm looking ahead too much, but I'll give a narrow 10-9 to the UFC. Jose, are you in agreement or does John Jones take the round? I think John Jones is in the right here. Dana White himself said, like, I was at this scrum.

And also, this is a round one. This is like round five between John Jones and the UFC. This has been going on since like 2012, 2013. Dana White said no one, he doesn't deserve $30 million, which is what he, John, which is what Dana is

allegedly saying because apparently there are text messages. John Jones says, release them. Dana White goes, I don't want to do that. But then, but then like 30 seconds after he says he doesn't deserve 30 million, he also calls him the greatest fighter who ever lived. So if you're the greatest fighter who ever lived, why don't you deserve to get paid the most money? Like Dana White basically just said,

no one's better than you. No one's beating you. You're the greatest who's ever done it. But you don't deserve to get paid like it. It was just the most bizarre. Like the fact that they were like that those, comments were back to back. We're very bizarre. Also, John Jones does have

leverage right now, I think, because of what's happening in the world. We saw him outside Albuquerque trying to make peace with a lot of the protesters. So his priorities are there. So, yes, I think John Jones A has a lot of leverage because Dana White called him the greatest. He said

he wasn't asking for $30 million. He was asking for half of half. And then John Jones called his blood and said, put out the text messages. Dana White won't do it. So for this movement that is going right now after the travesty in Minneapolis. I think John Jones has the leverage right now for sure. So if he, like I said, if John Jones wants to vacate and not be the LeBron of MMA, but start

this movement that like imagine a world where John Jones is the one that gets a union movement starting. Like that, it would like 2020 would truly be the most bizarre year in mixed martial arts. So yeah, I think John Jones is oddly at. it is for everything that he's done the last few years, I think John Jones is in the right right now. Hashtag, hashtag, release the Snyder cut. It worked.

Hashtag, release the Jones texts. Or just don't watch the Jones'League because it's a bad movie in general. I've never seen it. I don't plan to. But hey, look, that hashtag worked. Hashtag, release the Jones texts. Let's see the truth. Let's lay it on the table.

Well, let's just say, I don't know who's actually winning this, but I think John's in a great position right now for being honest. And last thing on this before we move on to the next topic, Jose, we'll start with you. Fans have been looking at John Jones a certain way for a long time now. Like there is no real gray area here. It's not like they feel about Colby, but John, like, has its own, you know, feeling towards him. It's either we love this guy. He's the greatest of all time or, you know, we can't stand him.

He's a screw up, whatever. But do you think John has swayed some of these naysayers in your opinion with everything going on here? Like we saw Stone Cold Steve Austin get over huge. pro wrestling because he was the anti-establishment guy. He's the guy that, you know, was against the corporation. Is this working for John sort of breaking down the fourth wall or at least teasing it more and more? I think John's had a lot of fans in general because of his behavior off out of the octagon. Who is the most popular character in the history of cinema? It's Darth Vader. He's by far, I think it's the most popular. He's the bad guy. The Joker is the most popular,

like comic book character ever he's a bad guy people love to go against the the the the authority and the establishment i've been at press conferences where daniel cormier is like the nicest human being in the world if anyone has any reason to dislike john jones it's daniel cormier giving his history uh with people that have been taken away from his life due to drunk driving john jones gets these duis and and drag races and hit and runs daniel cormin has every right to be angry and he has the sympathetic story. I've been at press grounds where people booed Daniel Korme and cheer

John Jones because people relate to what John Jones is going through. Like, yeah, hey, yeah, I like to partake in this nonsense too. I can relate to this guy who also happens to be the greatest fighter of all time. I remember when John Jones was getting booed, not because of what he was doing out of the Octagon, but because he was beating

the Randik, not Randy Cotas, like Leone Machitas, the rampages, the Rashad Evans, like he was beating the heroes. So that's why people were mad. Now people are cheering him because he's A, the anti-hero who's everyone can, quote, relate to that isn't a professional athlete and is going against the authority now. So I wouldn't say it's swayed more or less because of course you're going to see the racism online anyway because it's John Jones and what's happening in the world right now. So I don't know if it's swaying, but John Jones's fan base has always been there. And this also, yes, this will gain him fans if that's the question.

what do you think, Alex, because there's fans of the fighting, there's fans like Jose said, and I feel like John has tried all these different things. He's tried to sort of embrace the heel at times, but then he tries to be the baby face at times, and that doesn't go over well either. How do you think this all pans out in terms of how his fan base grows or does it not grow at all? Well, Mike, that's the thing right there, is he has to sustain. Okay, he has to, as the kids say, keep this energy. I don't know if I'm using that correctly.

I'm sorry, I'm over 30. Like he said, he's had moments in the past where it feels like, oh, wow, we're really seeing, I don't know, quote unquote, the real John Jones. But then he'll say comments that kind of go the other way or he won't quite commit. You know, this guy does not commit to being a bad guy, as it were. In some ways, I think that's a good thing. I don't know if we want someone who, you know, glorifies some of the unfortunate outside of the cage instances that he's been involved in. But there's a way to do it. You know, there's a way to kind of play up on that.

Look at Chelsonen. Chil Sonan, again, has actually had some real-life legal problems and serious ones. I know they're not as sexy crimes like DUIs and stuff. But if people look up, you know, what was the embezzlement? I shouldn't say that. But he had some financial crime, I'd just say. Some white-collar crime. There we go.

So, again, I know that doesn't quite draw the ire people as much. But he's done stuff. But he knows how to play on that image. And John Joe's never really has. He's had moments, right? But then he'll revert to this or he'll revert to that or he'll backtrack. So as much as he should capitalize on this kind of stone cold, Steve Austin versus Vince McMahon moment, I don't trust him to do it. That's kind of why I also said goes what I said before.

I don't trust him to vacate either. And there's a very strong comments. I think everyone's kind of caught up in this moment. But I say give it another week. And I wouldn't be surprised if you see the situation cool down between himself and Dana White. And we remember this is kind of just another blip on the radar. It's been a fascinating story to this point so far. John Jones had one of the more interesting Sundays of any MMA fighter in history with, you know, the title stuff.

And then he's taken spray cans away from vandals on the streets of Albuquerque on Sunday night and early Monday morning. The man has been out there making things happen. No doubt about that. But, you know, I have no point structure here. So 500 points for Jose Young. How about that? By the way, my apologies to Chelsea Sonia. It was money laundering in connection with mortgage fraud.

So I don't want to mischaracterize what happened there. But just saying there was some white collar crime with Chilsonner. I appreciate the clarification there. Of course. We could talk about John Jones for another hour, easy. We could do a whole show on that. But, you know, let's take a look back at Saturday night's return to Las Vegas. UFC on ESPN 9 this past Saturday.

What a hell of a card that was. Great fights, great finishes. We had some breakout performances as well. This was a fun one on Saturday night for the most part. Gilbert Burns dominates Tyron Woodley in the main event. puts him in a great spot in the welterweight division. So Alex, we'll start with you. You're from Canada, so I think you'll appreciate this question.

The three of us in different ways, we all sort of took a dive into a lot of this card after the event on Saturday night with the post-fight coverage. But in the NHL, after each game, there's always the three stars of the game, and they rank them from number three to number one. And of course, number one gets the big ovation. So how would you lay out your three stars from UFC Vegas and why? Well, first of all, Mike, as you know, I'm more. of a fan of real hockey, you know, the kind of hockey that has played in a field around the world. And, you know, the other, and, you know, as other countries refer to this, I believe what's a popular sport here is ice hockey. So I will say refer to it as such in the future.

But I would say number one star, it's hard to dispute Gilbert Burns. You know, he main events, huge opportunity. It's the opportunity he's been asking for for so long. He capitalized in every possible way. He made, he made Tyrone Woodley a former UFC champion, looked like he didn't belong in there with him. It was the best form of Gilbert Burns we've seen, and he looks prime for it. He performed so well that if they announced Kamar Uzman versus Gilbert Burns tomorrow, I don't think anyone would argue.

I think they'd be like, yep, he's hot right now. Give him the fight. And they're friends. There's some storyline there, so that's interesting. Second star, some people aren't going to like this. I got to go with McKenzie Dern. I also feel like she was in a situation where she really needed to pick up a signature win. after that loss to Amanda Rebus.

She's making weight, which is good. I know it's two fights in a row, but hey, two fights in a row is better than none, right? She's making weight. She got a highlight real submission. You know, you can say what you want about Seifor's tactics going to the ground with her, but it doesn't matter. The opportunity was there.

She took advantage of it. And look, Duren's got a lot of hype. These are the kind of fights she needs to have and highlights she needs to have. This reminds me of when Paige Van Zandt picked up the head kick of Beck Rawlings, right? It's like, for that moment, at least, the hype seemed justified.

And there's that clip that they can at least use for the future and whenever they're promoting during fights for now on. Third star, there's a lot of great performances in this card.

I'm going to lean towards Casey Kenney. I think Casey Kenney really made a statement. The Bandaway Division, so competitive. It seems to get more crowded with contenders every day. He knocked off a longtime veteran,

very exciting fighter, and Luis Smoka with a really nice choke, got that finish he'd been looking for, and bounced back from a loss to Murab Devon. really so there you go i'll go i'll go burns and durn and uh casey kin Jose how are you setting yours up uh I'm gonna start Billy Quarantillo uh number one uh I'm outside of Gilbert burns because I knew we would both be in agreement that Gilbert Burns would be the biggest star than I consider

he put on I basically pitched a perfect game against a former champion on the biggest stage of his career it's like the equivalent of throwing a perfect game in the world series and like game in like game two it's unbelievable um Billy Quarantillo uh lost the first round in a fight that was he didn't get dominated or he didn't get destroyed but it was like uh spike carlyle just like flew out of the gate and was had had all the hype in the world on him uh and billy corinillo not only came back in one but it was an unbelievable fight all of us were talking about how it was a fight of the fight of the night if not short list or fight of the year which uh no one is beating uh wiley versus yawanna for 2020 i'm going to say it now that will not be a better fight for

the rest of the next until december 31st uh so but put this in the top five to the point where when they didn't get fight of the night, there was such an outcry on social media that when I asked Dana White, Dana White said, that bums me out and he began to rethink his selection. How many times, we just talked about it, how many times Dana White changed his mind on something?

It never happens. And Dana White was on camera, visibly disappointed that he didn't give the fight of the night to the pick everyone was saying. So Billy Corintilla was also changed into its mind, incredibly well-spoken. And I said this to Mike. I made this comparison.

And it reminds me of when Al-A-Hernandez made his debut, right after the scrum, I was like, wow, this kid is so well-spoken and can carry himself so well on camera that the UFC, he's not going to be a massive star right away. But he's a guy that knows how to promote himself and knows what to do. He went straight from the press conference to the media tent and then was doing a phone interview right after all in the media tent. So Billy Quarantillo changed Dana White's mind. notes out of carrying himself and picks up the biggest win of his career against guy with a big name. Number two, I'll say Jamal Hill, simply because he got a text message from Hallie Berry saying,

I know who you are now. Well, she texts Dana White. So if Hallie Berry knows who you are, you got to be a star. He also called out John Jones at the end of his press conference and said, that fight has to happen eventually. So we always talk about how these prospects need names. Like, don't say, oh, I'll fight anyone. He did say that, but he goes, that fight against John Jones, has to happen eventually i don't care how it happened so text message from halliberry calls out john jones

fights in the ufx you got to be a star and then mackenzie jurn's a big one also gets the the first ever leglock submission win in the history of women's uh fighting in ufc but i'll say cal and chicans another big uh didn't get for solely because of how honest she was after the best performance of a career the first takedowns she's ever shot in her ufc career uh is saying she has baby fever but but is putting that off to accomplish her goals now, which is not a surprise, considering she postponed her initial title fight to get married, but then also skipped her prom to have a golden gloves map.

So her priority, she knows what her priorities are. Someone asked her, does this feel good getting the revenge against Valentina's sister, Anthonyita? She goes, no, they're different people. And then she was brutally honest saying Valentina dominated me. And I had to put on a good performance. So best performance of her career, most overall well-rounded performance of her career, and of how brutally honest she was in her last performance and what she wants moving forward.

You got to respect it. So I'll say those three names from my stars of the night. By the way, Jose, sorry, I just wanted to say your point at the top about we might not, we'll probably won't see a better fight than Zhang and, yeah, Jacek. Man, we've got that rebooking of the Brian Ortega Korean zombie fight. that's definitely going to happen this year. So I don't know. There's a chance.

I don't know what fight that is. I know. I know you've been looking forward to that fight forever. I know it was booked a while ago, and I can't remember what happened. I don't remember anything happening to it. I just remember it's getting pushed back now. So that's the fight's definitely going to happen.

I believe in curses, but that fight is 100% cursed. And it's not going to happen because Jose wants it to happen and anything I want to happen. So there you go. That's, that's similar to how Canada is and every, like, you guys all want a Stanley Cup for ice hockey. You guys are never going to win that anytime soon. Thank you. Thank you for calling it ice hockey.

It's proper name. Thank you. Right. We're just going all over the place right now. I like both, I like where both of you guys are coming from and kind of going through my list and really thinking about it earlier. You can certainly mix and match a few of the other people that we didn't mention,

like Roosevelt Roberts and, and, uh, you know, you mentioned Casey Kennedy. Brandon Roy Val is another name that probably deserves to be up there. Oh, yeah. One guy that could get into this argument, even after a loss.

is Spike Carlisle. Like I scored the fight for Billy Q and people were talking about Billy Q especially after the post fight stuff. Jose, you mentioned it. But man, all everyone,

like my casual like MMA fan friends want to talk to me about is that crazy redheaded guy with the dreadlocks or not dreadlocks. Corn Rose. Spike Carlisle and how much of a madman he is. Like his stock rose a ton on Saturday, even though he lost.

But for me it's probably Burns Kenny Roy Val. That's probably where I'm leaning. but I can see the arguments for a lot of other people. Mike, isn't that one of the ultimate ways to get someone in Tammu, I remember when Chris Levin was one of the first guys who got me in Tammah, when he knocked out, oh my gosh, the name escapes me, he knocked out Lester Sakara. And there was other people who fought that.

I think Andrew Silva also fought later on that card. But I remember at the end of the night, my question was, who was that crazy guy? Who was that Chris Levin guy? And it's funny. It is amazing the kind of people that catch your eye, and that's sometimes all it takes to get you involved. But yeah, I can totally see people seeing Spike Carlisle going like, I must know more and I must see this guy fight again.

Yeah, that's how Tim Elliott was for my older brother. Apparently Tim Elliott didn't remember rounds two and three of Askerastkarov, but my brother texted me that night and said, who's the wild man in the mullet? And that's who it was. And I had to tell Tim Elliott about that story. But Alex, you're going to even things up here. Let's move ahead to this Saturday. The UFC returns to the pay-per-view side of things with UFC 250. the main event is Amanda Nunes defending her women's featherweight title against Felicia Spencer

at the UFC Apex. Jose, we'll dive into the rest of the card in a few minutes because it's really good overall, in my opinion, but people are sort of, they're sort of poo-pooing this main event. And the main reason why is because most people expect Amanda Nunes to run right through Felicia Spencer, defend their title successfully. And because of that, here's my question. Of course, anything can happen in a fight, as you know, but outside. Of the title she'll be defending, what is at stake for Amanda Nunes?

How can she maximize these minutes to the best of her ability, especially if the fight plays out the way most expected to? She not only has to dominantly win, but she has to perform. She basically, like, we've talked about this on the A side, like Casey's brought it up a few times, too, where Amanda Nunes hasn't really, like, her, she doesn't have a lot of weaknesses, if any. but if anything she's shown is she is susceptible to if someone gets on top of her like the cat zingana loss or like even Alexis Davis is a high level black belt from her strike force days and she hasn't really fought anyone like those two fighters in a long time she's fought obviously predominantly strikers and yes ronda rousy and misha tater are grappling heavy but Amanda nina just put them away violently so she needs a performance like that where she basically takes no damage and just tears through fleece spencer because Felice Spencer went three rounds with Chris Cyborg, who everyone called the greatest featherweight of all time, and the Mandoninus, of course, just steamrolled her in less than a round. Felicia Spencer is not like the physically, like the, like as muscular as Chris Cyborg,

but she is so good on the ground, great wrestling, submitted Megan Anderson. Like I said, went three full rounds of Chris Cyborg, and those predominantly stand-up. So, yeah, she needs basically a perfect game in a, violent win to show that, yeah, I might have weaknesses, but I've worked on them. And I am the greatest female fighter of all time because she hasn't defended her featherweight title yet.

She'd become the first fighter in UFC history to defend both belts while holding them simultaneously. Because, of course, Daniel Cormier defended the light heavyweight champions against both in Osamere and then beat Steepet when they gave up the light heavyweight champions. And Conner has never defended his titles simultaneously. And of course, Henry Suhito never defended his flyweight title. So she can make history as being the first. First, fighter in general, not male or female, to defend both while holding simultaneously, and beating someone who many, including myself, her strengths play into Amanda Nunes' weakness.

So she needs a violent, dominant win to really cement herself and her legacy. Alex, what is at stake in your opinion for Amanda Nunes, besides the title and history and all of that stuff? Like, sometimes you need motivation to fight. Sometimes you just, like, just wrecking everybody. Is that what do you think it is? Or is there something more to this that we're not seeing? There's a couple of things. I mean, for one, I think there's a little bit of redemption involved.

I don't know if people remember her win over Jermaine Durandami, which was the Bantamie Teleth Defense, was not very well received. I think there was a lot of disappointment that she, you know, that's an opponent that she had finished before. And in theory, you know, Nune is a better fighter than she is now. And I think people thought she was going to finish her even quicker. Instead, it went to the distance. And that's a credit to Durandami.

She's a great fighter. But it really left a bad taste in people's miles. But what it reminded me of was, you know, Anderson Silva. I think people forget not all his title defenses were like crazy highlights. You know, he has an amazing highlight real. You can edit out some of like the Patrick Cote de fans, the Taos Lates, the fans, things that, you know. But I think I'm looking big picture here. This is where Nunez can be.

I know she's already regarded as, you know, the greatest female fighter of all time. But you can strengthen that case. Because, again, if you look at Anderson Silva, I mean, he has one of the strongest cases ever. And he's built it. He built it so well. And yes, some people have arguably surpassed him. Some people say GSP is better. John Jones may have beaten that resume.

But I think Nunez needs to keep stacking it up. Because somewhere down the road, another great female fighter will come along and challenge this legacy. So it's not so much about necessarily the specific opponent, but she just has to keep building that resume. I know she's probably going to take some time off soon to start a family with Ninaaneroff, of course. But every win matters. Again, I know it doesn't always look pretty.

like the Germaine Durandami fight, you know, but just keep winning, and it's about building that resume, and then it's got to look big picture. When you look at all the winds stacked up, you know, her win streak now is 10, you know, wait until it becomes 14, 15, 16, like Andrew Silva,

that's when we'll look back on all these fights and go like, wow, they all meant something like together, you know, maybe not all them individually, but together. So big picture, yeah, it means a lot. And again, got to kind of wash out the not-so-great taste of her last tail defense. Yeah, and you just, for those who are poo-pooing this,

You just have to fight who's in front of you. And deep down, I felt like Megan Anderson was probably the bigger draw overall. But I feel like in a way the UFC might be a little more invested in Megan. So they want to like see her improve. Also Felicia Spencer is the deserving number one contendent. Yeah, she beat her. Yeah, right? They did the right thing.

And then they both won in Norfolk in the whole conversation was who's going to get the next title show? I'm like, Felicia Spencer. Like there's your answer. She beats Megan Anderson and fights three rounds of Chris Cyborg and then picks up a win. Like it's her. Began Anderson wins one more. She's next. So the meritocracy thing, I mean, we don't get to talk about this too much.

But obviously, I feel like Spencer is the more competitive fight. She deserves it. But I don't know, I don't know, like maybe a motivation for Nunes is to keep a division alive on Saturday Night. Like that might be something. But the end, this is just, as both you guys sort of alluded to, this is to add pieces to the legend that is the lioness. But Alex, I do want to go back to you because when we talk biggest upsets in UFC history, most people are going to go right to Matt Serra beating George St. Pierre. But if Felicia Spencer goes out there and beats Amanda Nunes on Saturday night and becomes the UFC women's featherweight champion,

is this the new number one upset of all time in UFC title fight history? Firstly, there is no featherweight division anyway. There's no keeping a featherweight division alive. That's no disrespect to the women who compete at 145 pounds. But a division has to have more than six people in it. And, you know, so until they, until the, it's really, I'm criticizing the UFC for not trying to build. that division. And I acknowledge it's difficult to do. It is a hard division to build, but there really is no featherweight division. There are champions and there are fighters who fight at

145. That's not the same thing as having a division. No, Mike, almost nothing. I really struggled to think of anything that would surpass George St. Pierre versus Matt Serra. That to me personally is the greatest. Matt Sarah, a respected veteran, got his title fight off a reality show, off of the ultimate fighter. You won't see that again. He was nowhere near the number one contender. Like Jose just said, Felicia Spencer, clear-cut number-one contender, say what you want about name value, her relative lack of experience. She's always, he'll be her 10th career fight, I think, which sounds crazy. But she is a qualified. She is absolutely the number one contender.

Matt Serra wasn't even close. And the manner in which Matt Serra did it was crazy. Definitely if Felicia Spencer gets like a first round submission or something of Nunez, it would probably make it a top three upset. It would probably have to be up there. But it's really, really difficult for me to say. anything would pass GSP and Matt Serra. So I'm leaning towards no, regardless of the result on Saturday. Jose, our sport is not like baseball.

It's not like historically based. We are as recency bias as any sport could possibly be. Is there any way that Felicia Spencer could eclipse Matt Sarah if she beats a man and who's, what if she finished her? No. Matt Sarah, like, like AK said, like to me, like everyone argues, like, what's the biggest upset? Like there is, like, it's Matt, Sarah.

It might have been bigger betting. underdogs that have won. But Matt, like, to go off of what AK said, like, yeah, he got his known-win contendership from a reality show. He was also a lightweight that had a not, that got knocked out bad by a, what's his name? Oh my God, I can't remember his name. He got the spinning back fist. Johnny Carter.

Tony Carter, yeah. Mr. International. Yeah, so he was a lightweight that basically was on the outs with the UFC because his record wasn't that great. Basically, like, you have to fight a welterweight on this comeback season of tough. And then if you win, you get a title shot. So he was a lightweight, he was basically about to get cut, wins a reality show. Barely won that fight.

And then knocks out George St. Pierre, who at the time, yeah, George St. Pierre, but at the time, I agree George St. Pierre had, like, I think he had just won his belts, if maybe one title fight before. So it's not like he had 13 defenses or anything like, but still, like, you look at them. George, as they say in the business, looks great getting off. the bus. Matt Sarah was a blown up lightweight who knocked out Matt George St. Pierre who basically, who tapped

to strikes. Like, look, watch that fight. George St. Pierre is like tapping his hand on the thing. So no. Like if Felicia Spencer wins, I actually think she has a good shot of winning. I'm picking Amanda Nunes, but Belief Spencer has a better shot of being Amanda Nunes than I gave Matt Sarah against George St. Pierre.

Jose and I are agreeing a little too much, so I will play devil's advocate against him and myself just for the sake of disagreeing. And I will say the only, and it's kind of pick up, actually, though, and something he just said, the only case you could make is that George St. Pierre was not George St. Pierre yet. I mean, I think he was still pretty amazing at the time. He'd finally got that win over Matt Hughes, but he wasn't George St. Pierre yet. If you want to argue that

Amanda Nunez is further along in sort of her championship legacy than George St. Pierre was at the time, yes, that's a fact. She is further along and is certainly more spoken about as the greatest of all time than George St. Pierre was, he would later, you know, get that claim with his title round. But that's it. Other than that, other than that argument, I think Jose. There have been fights in the past where someone said, if this person wins is the biggest upset ever ever, I'd say 100%. If Betch Gahey, I beat Ronald Rousie, that would be the biggest upset I've ever seen. If Yonacquit's guy, I beat Chris Cyborg, that'd be the biggest upset I've ever seen. If Ovin St. Prue went there and just ethered John Jones in one round,

that'd be the biggest upside I've ever seen. But like, this fight, no. Felice Spencer, like AK said, is the number one contender, so she deserves this fight. And I think Casey's also an agreement that she has a legitimate chance of winning. I don't think, I don't know, I can't speak for Casey. I think Amanda's going to win, but Felicia has a good shot. I don't know if we're getting commentary from the truck. No, I don't hear anything from the truck. Okay, sorry, Mike, go on.

Nothing from the truck. Nothing of the truck. Silent. Oh. Yes. Okay. The truck just said, point to Jose. Okay, fair enough.

All right. The truck agrees. Let's head into our final question of regulation here. We saw the graphic on Saturday night with the full fight card for UFC 250. There's some very interesting matchups for sure. We have a couple of fights on there that will have a huge impact on respective divisions. There's fights on here that people are looking towards looking more forward to than the main event itself. So Alex K. Lee, Mr. Optimism, how would you grade this card from top to bottom as it stands right now?

Man, this card looks good. This card's like a solid B-ploid. Like I gave the card that just happened in an A-minus, which I feel comfortable with. That was our immediate reaction after. I almost actually want to give that great to this. But I think it is missing, I will say, I guess a main event that has a really widespread appeal. Although, again, I do think it's a better main event than people think. So I'll go a strong, strong B plus.

And man, look at the Bantam. Man, I just got to say, the Bantanweight division is so good. I think, you know, this is kind of part of the discussion of why people are so upset, or at least maybe I'm speaking for myself, with the, with the, the, the, the, the, the title fight with Aldo and Yon. Because here the guy is competing on Saturday. Huffball Asson, Sao, Cody Garbrand, former champion, Al Jermaine Sterling, Corey Sanhagen.

Eddie Weinland, one-time title contender, facing Sean O'Malley, Cody Stamen, Brian Keller on the prelims. That's a great fight. Like, the Phantom Weight Division is on fire. And I would say just top to bottom this card, I don't know if there's a fight on paper that does not have either the potential

for a strong three-round fight or a big finish. It's a really good-looking card. I'm going hard B-plus. Jose, you as positive, maybe more positive? I'm more positive because I'm going to be there, man. This fight is an A. This fight card is an A. That main event rules.

Felicia Spencer, Amanda Nunes versus Felicia Spenna. I love that fight. Rules. I wanted, as soon as Felicia Spencer won in Norfolk, I was like, I need to see her fight Amanda Nunes. Amanda Nunes is the greatest female fighter of all time, one of the greatest fighters in general of all time. And any time we get to see people that we consider the greatest test themselves

against people who might not be as good of a fighter but are so good in one area that the champion doesn't shine in, I'm all about. It's like when Anderson fights Chale Sondon. Chale Sondon, I don't think it was a better fighter than Anderson, but is clearly a better wrestler. And Anderson historically didn't do great against wrestlers. So I wanted to see that fight, even the first fight I wanted to see. And then we saw what happened with that.

So I am hyped for that fight. Cody Garbrandt has said he might even drop down on a flyweight if he wins. He just wanted to have unfinished business with Hafeil of Sunsau. So this is the last time we see. Cody Garberant at 135, I'm hyped seeing him at 125. Of course, you have Sugar Sean Eddie Weinland. You got Neil Magny, Anthony Rockwood. Neil Magny looked unbelievable in his last fight.

He had that loop around like hook against the leech. Sterling Corey San Hagan should be the number one contender fight. I don't hate Peter Jan versus Jose Aldo solely based on the fact that that fight will probably happen on Fight Island. And they need a big international fight. Oh. Oh, no. We lost Jose. No.

I will carry on his thought. Carry on. Yes. As he was saying, the Yon Aldo fight is not like the worst thing in the world. Again, one on paper, I think we've kind of spoken before. on paper, if you told me, do I want to see Piotr-Jolioen and Jose Aldo fight at some point? Yeah, sure, it's a cool fight on paper. Both guys, very skilled.

And as Jose was saying, Fight Island is looking to, you know, Dana White is looking to land on Fight Island, wherever it is, with a bang. And, yeah, you get a big, you know, Josie Aldo, he's not like the biggest, you know, paper view draw, or I don't know, and I don't know if it will be a pay-per-view, but he certainly

is a guy with a lot of international cachet. I would imagine even extending beyond his native Brazil. I think he's the kind of guy who a lot of other countries would enjoy as well. He's been around for so long, definitely one of the fighters who can lay claim to being one of the greatest of all time. I would say, again, he's in my personal top five, pound for pound. So, yeah, he was kind of making a point that that's not the worst thing, which I agree

with. But he was also hyping up the rest of the card. And like I say, it's a good one. So, again, I wouldn't go as far as an A, but Jose will have to be there. So I'm glad that the normally, the occasionally morose Jose Youngs, who wasn't as glowing in Jacksonville, let me put it that. way. I'm glad that he seems to have mustered up a lot of enthusiasm for this card that he will be attending. Thank you, Alex, and I like this card as well. I think everyone has their eye

on Sterling v. Sanhagan. I think that's such a fascinating fight. I'm a little surprised the UFC actually hasn't flipped that fight to the co-main event over Garbrandt v. Sunsau, but we're not promoters. There must be some reasoning for that, but that's just what it is, because we're not talking, like, actual fights themselves, because I'm sure we're going to discuss that on the preview show. But Jose, now that you're back with us and no longer a question mark, from a storyline perspective, what storyline or question is out there that is flying under the radar heading into Saturday night that you are looking forward to getting the answer to that most people may not be thinking about right now? I mean, they usually want to see Sugar, Sean O'Malley,

go against Eddie Wineland. That's very much a vet versus, that is the definition of vet versus Uber prospect. Sean O'Malley has all the hype in the world behind him right now. couldn't have had his return to the Octagon go any better against Jose Canione is back in January on a massive card. So that's the easy one. Of course, I like the Ian Highness, General Mirchart fight. Gerald Mirchart has, what, like 20-something submission wins. So I'm always curious to see if he can get another one.

Selfishly, I like the Cody Stamen, Brian Keller fight, just because Brian Keller is once again part of the Crystal Crew. He's riding a two-fight win streak with both performance of the night bonuses. Really wants that Sugar-Shahn fight. They can both pull off wins over the biggest named opponents they've had ever. Well, I know Keller has that fight against John Lennox, but at this point, I think Cody Stamen holds a little more water. I went over him at this point in 2020.

So those two, specifically for the Bantamweight Division, are really great. And then Bruce Leroy, Alis, I love this fight. I have this one to circle because Alis O'Souciras seems to be one of those guys that the UFC likes to match up with these prospects, too. I was at his fight against JIA Rodriguez and Salt Lake. I really loved that fight. Of course, they had him fight. Cron Gracie here in Phoenix when he got submitted. I think he fought Ocho, too.

So I love watching Bruce Leroy fight, fellow Weeb, and then Chase Hooper is another one of those guys like Sugar Shawler, the UFC, has really kind of put the promotion machine behind him with his personalized M&M and he's on Fight Pass, interviewing Jorge Mosvito. So outside of the game, of the main card. Well, I know Wyneland,

Sugar Sean is on the main card, but it's the first fight. So I'm really going to, I'm excited for a lot of these, these bansom weight and featherweight pre-lim fights for sure. Alex O'Bow you, what's your under the radar storyline

heading into Saturday night? I mean, do I only get one? Because I feel like you asked Jose for one and you asked him for an excerpt. He gave you the whole chapter. Jeez, Louise. You're welcome. My goodness.

I'm like, he said, storyline, singular. Geez, what am I supposed to? I don't have nothing to work with here. I'll just add on the line. one in a while. There's multiple

storyline in a book. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Well, and if I'm asked for, anyway, Cody Stamen,

Brian Keller, I do like the storyline here for the reasons that Jose said, specifically the crystal aspect because I know you guys have spoken to

Brian Keller a bunch of times. I've interviewed Cody Stamon a couple of times. He seems like a sensible individual, the kind of person that does not believe in pseudoscience like crystals.

So like I said, I have not ruled out your insane crystal theory, but because the results so far for your side of it have been very positive. So, So this is really, again, I like to do my research.

So this fight will just be more data for us to compile as whether these crystals have any actual effectiveness. Because if Brian Keller wins by first round knockout or submission, again, I'll have to take a little note of that and give another point to the Crystal Crew side. But yes, that's a fun storyline, quote-unquote storyline to keep an eye on if that's what you want to call it. Because it is a storyline.

Crystals, again, they're a fairy tale. They don't actually do anything. Was it not you before we went on air? as you like to deal in facts. You like to talk in facts, right? Those were your words, correct? I'm a man of science, Jose. I'm a man of science.

So then you know the scientific method, right? You have a hypothesis. Look. And then you go through the experiment and then you get an output. Right now, right now the data is 100% Jose and Crystal Group. Very strongly. And 0% Alex in his bad music. Tell that.

Hold on. Who was the other, who was the poor gentleman who believed in Chris, Jarzino Rosenzegrook? How about that? What happened to our poor Jarzino? He didn't have Tiger's eyes. I fail to see what you're asking. Okay, hold on.

I'm making a note. Okay, it was. He didn't have the Tiger's eye with. All right. I'm making it down. Like, you know the answers. Crystal storyline fairy tale on UFC 250. That is the one I'm keeping eye on.

Wow. We've gone in so many different directions. We'll see what happens there. But I think we're all evened up. And we're heading into this final question. I actually asked my seven-year-old son to make the pick here with the one that we're going to go with. And there's no rhyme or reason for it. He has no idea.

really what I was asking. Soft tacos are better. Oh, go on. No, no, no, no, no. But we're going to call this. Go ahead. Like you said, you said your son is seven. I hope this isn't above Jose's level of comprehension.

Okay, sorry, go ahead. Wow, okay. This is what we're calling the off-the-cuff rounds. You and you and Mike's San Bernard son have something similar. You both can't grow facial hair. Oh, wow. Too mean. Right into the final question.

I mean, this is what we're looking for here. This is the kind of beef, the kind of heat that we want here on between the links. but none of these guys know this question. They have no idea where it's coming from, but of the options, this is what my seven-year-old chose. This is for the win and the spoils. Jose, since you know what, since you got the points in the last question,

do you want to go first or last year? Alex can go first. All right, Alex, here we go. Choosing to kick off. Yes, here's the question. I'm from New England, as much as I hate to admit, I'm not a Patriots fan. They always kick off first.

Ah, there you go, and that's why they won so many championships. But UFC President Dana White, Alex, an ESPN host Dan Lebitard. They had a nice little heated debate on the Dan Lebitard show last week. And in the end, for some god-offal reason, they verbally agreed to a fight for charity. Now, we all know that this fight

is never, ever going to happen. But for the sake of this program, in its debut, Alex K. Lee, if you are the promoter tasked with the kind of fight this would be or the gimmick that would be attached to it, I don't know, UFC contract on a poll match or something like that,

put your Vince Russo hat on Dana White versus Dan Lebitard How are we doing this thing? I mean, I'm definitely booking this as a tag match that keeps Dana and Dan out of the ring or cage or whatever fighting area as long as possible. I'm a believer in the old booking

of emphasize your strengths and hide your weaknesses. So Dan Lebitard obviously gets Jorge and Mazvedal. He teams up with Mazvedal. And then Dana really can team up with whoever he wants. I mean, again, he's got that whole roster. But Dana gets to pick a welterweight or at least someone in the 170, 155, 185 range.

Dan Levitard brings in Jorge Madadol and then, yeah, that's a little more of an interesting thing to me. Maybe you get Dan and Dan there for a little bit of a lockup, maybe some interference. Someone's definitely getting hit with a chair, but otherwise, no, I have no interest.

This is news to me. I did not hear that challenge. So, yes, I would definitely do a pro wrestling style match. This is happening in a ring, not in the octagon. And Le Bittard and White are maybe getting five minutes of in-ring time, and then you leave the rest of the heavy work to the big voice.

The mixed tag approach from Alex Kaley. Jose, how are you booking this thing? This is 100% going to be Dan Levinhardt versus Dana White in a professional wrestling match. It's going to be Poppy on a pole, taking it right out of Vince Russo. Of course, Dan Levitart's co-host, Poppy, is the only reason to watch the Dan Levitart.

So I greatly respect Poppy. I love how he pronounces. every single Hispanic name correctly, straight from Cuba, too. So much respect to Poppy and everything he's gone through and his pronunciation of names correctly, unlike Alex. I actually want Dana and Dan to be the mouthpieces. They would be the managers who then can take a bumper to maybe scuffle on the outside of the ring. But they would each get champions.

Of course, Dana White would get the fighter with professional wrestling experience, and that is, you named it, Rhonda Rousey. She is his champion. And I'll say Dan Levitard gets the other female fighter who has actually called out AEW people, and that is Chris Cyborg. And we can finally see Ronda Rousey versus Chris Cyborg inside of a ring with Dana White outside and Dan Levitart outside. And Poppy stuck on a poll a la Vince Russo. I can't remember who was on the poll who in the WCW days was a Judy Bagwell. Yeah, Judy Bagwell.

The president is there. It's going to be in Florida, where there are no rules. There's going to be bowing knives everywhere like I found in Jacksonville. So there you go. That is the correct answer. Papiana Pull. Rhonda Rousey versus Chris Cyborg. Dana White versus Dan Levitard.

Point to Jose. I respect the Cyborg Rousey stealth booking. Way to slip that one under the fence. And listen, Jose, hold on. Listen, say what you want about my love of Limp Biscuit. Say what you want about my horrible, horrible inability to grow a facial hair. You leave my try hard name pronunciation alone. You, Billy Quarantillo.

I'm sorry he pronounces his name wrong too. Billy Quarantillo, Ryan Bonoit. Ryan Benoit. Hey, Alex, what's the last letter of the alphabet? Clitzen, Clitzen Abrio. Good luck with that one, buddy. Don't even try it. I don't want you to, we don't want you to have to go there.

Clitzen Abel. Z, the last letter of the alphabet, of course, is Z. We all know that. Wow. The mighty Zed. Let us This is tough This is a good battle

But as people who have followed the show Through all of considerations I don't like being the one Who inflicts the decisions I like to pass that on to somebody else to do so So let us go to the truck To Casey Leiden And Casey, what do you think?

Who won this battle? It was even going in Now we're talking Poppy on a pole And all sorts of craziness When we put this Dana White versus Dan Levitard match for together Who wins the inaugural episode of Between the Lings.

Jose Youngs. Jose Youngs gets the win. What a battle it was. There you have. First show is our first winner. Alex, you want to touch it. You earned it. You want to touch it?

Alex, you earned it. Hardware paid off for you. Well, I know. It's a tough thing. And with that, you know what I just want to say. Before we sign out,

congratulations, Mike, on getting the show on MMA fighting. I've been on it in its previous iterations. and it's really cool to see this on a massive platform like MA Fightings YouTube page. And with that, I am 3-0 in between the links. I think Damon Martin is out there japping away that he's 2-0. 3-0, baby.

Oh, the call-out. I like it. Making the most of his post-fight time. That I respect. Because I would not have called anyone. I would have done the – I'll take – Mike, I'll take on whoever you – I'll take on you guys – whoever everybody fighting wants. I'll take them on next.

I just want to get back in there. I like the call. Damon and Martin can come on and talk about five. finger death punch all he wants and that'll be another bad music opinion on between the links standing across Jose Young's oh the drive-by on four five-finger death punch wow why what they do made bad music that is how you maximize your minutes ladies and gentlemen right there jose young's getting the victory on the inaugural episode of between the links on mhmat fighting dot com we'll be back at it again next tuesday and we'll do it again make sure you check up the

a side with Jose Young's that's going to drop tomorrow or wednesday what the heck drops Thursday. We'll have the Way and Show Stairdowns preview show on Friday for UFC 250 and then of course all of the fight night coverage you can handle on Saturday night. So make sure you subscribe wherever you're watching. You're listening for Jose Alex. I am Mike Heck. Thank you very much for checking out the show and we'll see you back here next week as you go once again between the links. You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network.