MMA Fighting - Between the Links: Episode 16 | UFC vs. Bellator Winner, Dustin Poirier Takes A Stand, Covington vs. Woodley

Episode Date: September 15, 2020

Check out episode 16 of Between the Links as Mike Heck moderates the matchup between MMA Fighting’s Jed Meshew and martial arts personality Phoenix Carnevale as they discuss who had the better weekend between the UFC and Bellator—along with takes on the UFC Vegas 10 main event between Michelle Waterson and Angela Hill, and the Bellator 246 headliner that saw Juan Archuleta become the bantamweight champion with a unanimous decision win over Patchy Mix. In addition, the panel talks the bizarre light heavyweight matchup between Mike Rodriguez and Ed Herman, Dustin Poirier taking a stand in regards to the in the works matchup with Tony Ferguson at UFC 254, and a look ahead to this Saturday night’s UFC Vegas 11 event featuring the highly anticipated welterweight grudge match between Colby Covington and Tyron Woodley. Follow Mike Heck: @MikeHeck_JR Follow Jed Meshew: @JedKMeshew Follow Phoenix Carnevale: @microphonephoen Subscribe: http://goo.gl/dYpsgH Check out our full video catalog: http://goo.gl/u8VvLi Visit our playlists: http://goo.gl/eFhsvM Like MMAF on Facebook: http://goo.gl/uhdg7Z Follow on Twitter: http://goo.gl/nOATUI Read More: http://www.mmafighting.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

With Instacart, you get groceries that over-deliver, like when you get groceries that are the same prices in-store. With no markups at select retailers, you get in-store products for in-store prices, and the only thing that isn't in-store is you. That means you could order in-store products at in-store prices while you're in sweatpants, in spin class, in stuffy work meeting, in anywhere but in store. So download the app today and get $0-dollar delivery fees on your first three orders. Instacart, groceries that over-deliver. Service fees exclusions in terms apply. You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. Welcome to Between the Links with your host, Mike.

Thank you, Esther Lynn, as we welcome you to a brand new edition of Between the Links. Hope you're having a great week coming off a very busy weekend in the combat sports world. We had two Bellator events. UFC Vegas 10. We had bare-knuckle action for the bare-knuckle enthusiasts with BKFC. LFA was back. A lot of fights went down. We have a huge UFC event coming up on Saturday,

headlined by Colby Covington versus Tired Woodley, and there's just so much to discuss. So let's get into this right now. First, let us introduce the Challenger. She's a familiar face to those who have followed this website. She was a multiple-time panelist on the old MMA Beach. She's been a co-host on the UFC Unfiltered series several times. She did a lot of work for Access TV when they were in the MMA game.

She's just all over the place these days. Phoenix Carnivali joins us. How are you? Oh, so happy to be here, man. I love talking fights. There you go. And introducing the reigning defending BTL champ. Just closed out the trilogy with Sean Ross Sapp last week.

Those matchups were a lot of fun, but he's back with the fresh matchup this week from MMAfighting.com. Jedmishu, what's up, champ? Mike, I see what you're doing here, and I'm already calling shenanigans. Look, you've brought writers and bloggers and all these other journalists here, and all of them fell before me.

So you have to go get a real television personality to stand up next to the heat of my takes. It's not going to work. I'm the champ as long as I say I'm the champ, and I still say I'm the champ. Phoenix, I'm bringing the fight to you. I love it. I'm digging the confidence.

I love competition. It's going to be a good time. I am excited for this matchup already. So let's kick things off with this past weekend. One of the topics last week on the show was the UFC versus Bellator on paper, who had the better slate. Bellator came with two events on Friday and Saturday. Friday night, Phil Davis defeats Leota Machita in a kind of a main event.

And then Juan Archeletta became the Bellator Bannamway champion with a win over Pachy Mix on Saturday. UFC had their event in Las Vegas Saturday night, headlined by Michelle Waterson defeating Angela Hill and just an excellent main event. We're going to dive into some of these fights more specifically in a moment. But Phoenix, we begin with you. Who won the weekend in your opinion? The UFC or Bellator and why? Listen, I absolutely love Archeletta.

and I thought that was a fun fight against Patsy Mix. I knew Archiletta was going to win. I've been a fan of him for a long time. But to me, the UFC won the weekend. Fantastic main event. Stars were made. Rocky-like story with Chrome coming out and winning in the first round, the fastest ever for, you know, your first time in the UFC.

I just thought that there were a lot of awesome storylines, a lot of stars to be made. I know a lot of people complain, but, you know, there's no stars. There's no stars. I call BS on that. I thought that a lot of stars were made in this special night for the UFC. I'm a little biased because I always love the girls' fights.

I feel like there were a lot of female fights on the cards. And I thought that they all brought it. The Sabina Mazzo headkick, which led to the submission. I'm a big fan of hers knowing her from the LFA. So for me, having a background with a lot of those fighters that are now becoming stars, it was just fun from start to finish for me. What do you think, Jed? I love it because we have dissension immediately.

Look on the merits, if you're just looking fight for fight, I think the UFC had the better card. It's the more entertaining one. It's the one that I'd rather go rewatch. I'm not interested in watching Machita Davis. Again, I'm good with the ones. So on those merits, I'd still think Bellator is close, actually, if you combine their two cards over the weekend,

because they did have some really good bright spots. But it's not who won the weekend isn't just about the fights. it's everything else. And arguably the biggest story coming out of the UFC event is not related to how great those fights are. It's, you know, did Michelle Waterson get away with one? Was Angela Hill robbed? Or even more probably the whole Ed Herman situation with the referee, which I know we're

going to talk about later, those are kind of detracting moments to take away from that card. Whereas with Bellator, you've got a new Bannamway champion, one archeletta in a sensational fight, phenomenal comeback showing championship, Mary. And you get all the ancillary stuff, too. You get the paramount, the exiting paramount announcement. You get the announcement that Douglas Lima is going to move up and challenge for Gaygard-Musassi's middleweight title. That's official, got a date set.

You've got Chris Cyborg coming back. I think that they just kind of carpet bombed us with a lot of really good stuff. And so even if, you know, maybe 245 wasn't the most exciting card or there were some controversies there as far as low blows, etc. I think on the balance, Bellator's weekend, they got the fights that they wanted. You know, they got the winners that they wanted by and large. And then they got some really big, great announcements. And they don't have the looming stench of Connor Regger's latest controversy, which always associated with the UFC as well.

So categorically, I think Bellator takes the weekend. All right, Jen, let me go back to you because we all touched on at the main event on Saturday for the UFC was Michelle Waterson, defeating Angela Hill be a split decision. That was a fight. It was a great scrap. They delivered the questions looming afterwards. Something you brought up.

But this fight took a beating heading into it after the Glover Tashara, Tiago Santos fight fell off. But this one delivered it a big way. So after watching those ladies fight out for 25 minutes, what was your biggest takeaway from that fight? And where did you sit heading in and where do you sit now? Well, of course it took a beating. Tashara versus Glover versus.

Glover versus Tiago Santos, that was for, as we discussed several weeks ago, because I'm such a long-reaning champion, that was for the title of best light heavyweight in the world. So you lose the light heavyweight title fight. Of course, you're going to take a beating. But that fight delivered.

Both women came out and fought their asses off. I came into that fight thinking Angela Hill was going to walk through Michelle Waltherson. The Warrison's best chances were grappling, and that on the feet, Hill was going to kind of tune her up. And it started out that way. I thought that Hill really was in command early on,

but Hill made some really poor tactical decisions in that fight. And it's hard for me to say whether she made them entirely or maybe Waterson kind of triggered those responses. But Hill, after kind of dominating early, started to consent to fighting the bout like Waterson wanted to and staying at kicking range and getting kicked a lot and not kind of just working her hands and pumping her jab.

So, you know, in the end, I still had Hill winning. I had her slightly edging out the fight there. But I can't be unhappy with Michelle Waterson getting the decision. Either way, I don't think you can. It was a close competitive fight. I think Waterson probably won the most dominant round of them all. So it was a great fight. I'd be happy to watch them run it back at some point in the future.

And I'm sorry for Angela Hill because she's really close to getting over the hump and being a bona fide contender and just can't quite seem to do it. Phoenix, what do you think? because Waterston gets a much needed to win. Hill, as usual, super competitive, made some history while she was at it, heading into the fight. What was your biggest takeaway from those 25 minutes of action? And how did you score it?

Well, listen, I would love to argue with Jed at this exact moment, but I really can't because his point is very similar to mine. The only difference I would say is I did have Michelle Waterson winning round three, which was, I think, the most sort of indecisive round for the fans. I think the take down on the ground control of what really changed the moment. momentum of the entire fight because Hill even said it herself. After that, she was worried about the takedown and that ground control, even though rounds one and two, what beautiful takedown she had, which really has showed her elitolution as a fighter. But once Michelle was able to gain control

with that kicking range, I kind of knew where it was going and I did give it to Waterston. But I think what it did do is it proved that Angela Hill, she really had to learn on the fly. I mean, I know Angela Hill from Moitai back in the day. I used to commentate her moitai fights. And I remember her calling me saying, hey, I really want to get on the ultimate fighter, thinking it was her only shot to get into the UFC. Do you know anybody so I could at least have one fight

before I go into the tough house? So she's had to learn on the fly and considering the way she's taken her career, coming in with nothing but Muay, I am still impressed with her. And at 35, I really hope that there's something she can do within the next two years to keep elevating her career. Yeah, coming in, short exit,

did some, had some fights in Victa look great there and came back and she just keeps getting better and better. Also on Saturday night, we saw, you know, the main event for Bellator was a million times better than Friday night's Bellator main event, just being honest. Ward Art Joletta becomes the Bain of Way champion over Patchy Mix. It was billed on paper as the best fight of the entire weekend slate.

There's a lot of hype for that one. Gritty performance from Art Joletti. He came back. Mix had some big moments early. Phoenix, you know, you've been following Archiletta for a while, gets, you know, finally gets a big promotional championship around his waist. Where did you take away from that fight at Belleter, 246, and, you know, the performances from both fighters?

I feel like, I feel like Archeletta's experience really shined through because he was losing the first two rounds. As soon as he was able to use his distance and stay on the feet and control the fight, it was like, okay, I know where this is going now. But I was worried the first two rounds. You just kind of saw how much of a crafty veteran he is. And then at the end, when he won, he was all class, you know, talking about Cups Swanson, talking about how heartbroken he was when he lost that opportunity against

Pitbull. So I thought, you know, he gained some fans within this fight too because you saw what he can do to a younger, aggressive fighter. And I'm happy he's in the position he's in now. Jed, my biggest takeaway was, you know, Dana White even said about the Waterson Hill fight, there are no losers. I think if you look at the grand scheme of things with this Bellatory main event, Patchy Mix may not have the title, but he wins an experience.

He has to grow from performance like that. And I think if you go 12 and O and you finish a lot of fights quickly, you need to have that one war. And I think he got it with Juan Archiletta. That was my biggest takeaway. What was your biggest takeaway overall of that fight on Saturday night? I mean, I think you're not wrong to have that takeaway, right? I want to talk about Patchy Mix in just a second.

But first, you have to give your props to Juan Archoletta. This is a guy who's, what, 28 and 2 or something ridiculous like that, he's only lost to one man a decade ago. And then Patricio Pitbull, who is arguably one of the 10 best fighters on the planet, dual champion in Bellator, like no shame in that loss. So Archelaide has been putting in his time, you know, got to where he is. And like, like Phoenix said, showed a ton of experience. A risky game plan. It is a dangerous game plan to basically say, I know I'm. going to lose early. I may lose these first two rounds because then you have to be perfect after that.

And he was. Juan Archoletta sweat the end. Really sensational performance from him. So I think that's the first thing you have to take away. But one B, right after, you know, how great Juan Archaleta is and what a crowning achievement is patchy mix is going to be a problem real soon. I mean, he was two rounds up and just cruising. I know at the end of the second Archeletta had started to kind of put in work and was paying dividends with some of his big body shots. But, you know, Mix didn't fade. That was kind of the thing that shocked me the most is I thought after the end of round two, mix was look like he was starting to tire out. Archelaida was starting to come on strong. He'd done so much good work to the body. I thought Mix was going to start drowning. He was going to be in over his head. But he wasn't.

He stayed in there for the remaining 15. And yeah, he lost and he ate a lot of shots. But the man showed off a chin. He showed off a ton of heart. He kept fighting and scrapping. Like he that was not a three-round blowout at the end. He lost, but he stayed competitive in them, despite fighting a fight that's not really what he's best at and against a guy who clearly was in better shape than him and better prepared for the moment. I was super impressed with Patchy Mix in the adversity

and how he reacted to it. And he's young. This is first loss. He's going to come back real soon. I said after the fight, I wouldn't be shocked if in a year that fight ends up getting run back and patchy makes it becomes a new champion i mean i super impressed with this kid he's going to be amazing let's get him a wikipedia page because he doesn't have one and it's a crime get that man a wiki

well it was a good weekend for the ufc good weekend for bellator very newsworthy weekend for bellator but uh there you go leads to a lot of discussion points and that usually relates to a successful weekend for the most part but more on that coming up next but in terms of this opening round The point goes to the champion, Jed Mishu. He is on the board. Hell of a round. I'm excited to see how this gets going here in round number two as we move to a huge story from over the weekend of the unfortunate variety. One of the big themes, nutshots.

Eleanor 245 had two no contests due to low blows. The Raymond Daniels fight was probably the most painful thing I've ever seen in my entire life. But the biggest low blow story of the weekend was due to a low blow that didn't actually happen. Mike Rodriguez is fighting Ed Herman. Mike was doing very, very well in that fight. Look to have had the fight finish in the second round. A referee, Chris Tione thought he saw a low blow. Turns out, it couldn't have been further from a low blow. And in the end, Ed Herman, using his veteran savvy, wins the fight via Camorra in the third round. It's just unbelievable. If you told me the story and I didn't see it, I probably wouldn't have believed you.

But Jed, before we get into the aftermath, what did you make of that entire situation? Ed Herman is a wily, wily character. I mean, look, everyone knows it by now. It is not cheating if you don't get caught. And my man did not get caught. So totally above board what happened there. Like, sometimes you need to take a breather. you need to rest and it worked out.

It paid off. So often something like that happens and it just delays the inevitable. Maybe Ed Herman makes it to the final. But instead, Ed Herman threw up what I think in most years would be considered comeback of the year. End of the year this year, it will probably get docked points for the, let's call it, specious way that all ended up unfolding. But otherwise, I mean, he was getting the wood put to him for two and a half rounds

and then turns in a sensational comeback. So you can't argue with the results. I mean, it's depending on how you like the man, you're either going to call it low and classless or you're going to call it a crafty maneuver. And I think Ed Herman has been in the game long enough for us to just call it veteran savvy and give our cap to the man.

What do you think, Phoenix? My favorite part was the referee just turning to him and saying nuts. It was a nut shot. So professional. just nuts. I remember doing a broadcast once and they were like, you can only say groin shot because I was saying all types of breadbasket and sackage and all types of stuff. And they corrected me on the air. So I just loved the whole nuts, you know, effect of it. And then my other favorite part was Herman saying, I'm not sure if I got hit in the groin. I don't have balls.

But if I did, I think I would know if I was hitting them, you know. But I tried to give them the benefit of the doubt because he had taken severed several elbows before and was dazed before, you know, before that knee hit him. So was he so out of it that he didn't know if it was his balls or his solar plexus? I don't know. I'm given the benefit of the doubt. But it was comical, crazy. And I actually hope that something good comes out of this if it's contested, which it is going to be. All right. So on that, Phoenix, bouncing back to you, as you probably know by now, Rodriguez's manager told me right after the fight is that they plan to appeal. Dana White went on to say that the UFC will pay him his win bonus despite what happened. I actually spoke to Mike Rodriguez right

before we hit record here. So he gave his take. And it seems like his thing is like, I just want to put this thing behind me. Like I'm glad I got the extra money. I came home feeling like a winner. The appeal, I don't know if he necessarily cares too much about it, but it is what it is. But they still plan to appeal the loss despite getting the win money. Does this have any chance of being overturned considering how rare appeals actually work out for those who file them. And then plus, this is such a unique circumstance. It's so damn obvious that if this appeal doesn't work, I'm going to be furious as not only a person who works in a sport, but as a fan. This is so obvious. But you have to appeal these things. You have to actually take a stand every once in a while,

especially for something as clear as day as this. Because if you think back to the Wyman fight with the knees and the downed opponent, Eddie Alvarez and Corriere, those are some of the initial things that happened before the instant replay was made possible in 2017. So as this sport is evolving and we're adding new things and new tools and new rules into it,

the only thing that sometimes makes change is a bad situation. So what I'm hoping for is that they do contest this, that it's so freaking obvious that they have to change it. And then it brings up more conversations about what we really do with instant replay, besides it just being fight-ending sequences.

Jed, what do you think? Does this have any chance? There is one chance for this to get overturned. And it's if Ed Herman pops for a steroid because otherwise, they're not overturning this one. That's just the world we live in, man. I'm sorry about it. But it's one of those situations where the referee made the call in the cage.

He chose to stop the fight. He was wrong. We all know he was wrong. We also cannot say conclusively that Ed Herman would have been finished. I think we all agree he would have been finished. But, you know, we can't say it. They're not going to overturn this to a no contest because that type of foul is up to the referee discretion. And referee made a call.

He made the wrong one and we'll have to live with it. I am glad that Mike Rodriguez is getting his full win bonus. He certainly should. And I think he's honestly taking. the right tack on this. Just, hey, you know, I'm not going to try and run this fight back. I feel like I did what I needed to do and life happens. There we go. I'm going to move on. I hope that he also in that recognizes that he still did lose the fight, even if what led to that was nonsense, because that's something he can shore up in his game getting tapped out, you know,

when he's up to two rounds and two minutes or whatever it was. But yeah, this isn't, unless Ed Herman pops or something, it's not getting overturned. That's just going to, to be the way of the world and we all have to be okay with it because think of all the other ones that should have been overturned. Do we think about them all the time and lament them? No, we just kind of move forward. It's not going to hold anybody back. So it is what it is to quote Max Holloway. Phoenix, let me ask you this. If you're Ed Herman, okay, and I understand that after the fight, he took a little bit of a beating. Maybe he didn't know that he got need in the nuts or anything like that or wherever that thing landed he just knew was really hurt or the groin or the sackage,

I believe was the other term that was thrown around. But if you're Ed Herman, the next time you you're going to be asked about this and there's no way in hell that he didn't go right back and watch the fight or he has, he's definitely watched it by this point. If you're doing interviews and you're asked about this, do you just k-fave this thing and be like, I still don't remember what happened? Like, what do you do here? I think I would interview him and say, hey, Ed, do you know what your balls are? That's it. No, I mean, look, he's a veteran.

He took the win. It's quite obvious. His problem is really in the court of public opinion. You know, we don't even know if this was his actual retirement fight either. You don't know how he went home feeling, looking at it. I mean, it's not the way he's probably going to want to end his career. I say he probably fights again so that he ends on a completely clear note. but yeah i mean he's going to have to answer this question when does the media forget about stuff usually

like a year later so he's got he's got six to 12 months of this is not question jack question he needs to lean into it mike look when i argued really strongly on mhmapfiting dot com you can go back and read it if you'd like to uh when t j delishall popped for peds that he should have leaned all the way into it and gone like full heel mode with it and i think ed herman needs to do that right now. He needs to be like, hey, I do know where my balls are. They were in my chest after that savage, the blow, rocketed them

up there. So yeah, I think it shows a lot of heart that I was able to come to overcome such treachery and cheating and still get the submission victory. He lean into it, man. You've got to. There's no other way to approach this. I mean,

hopefully this does get overturned somehow because this is obvious of a referee blunder, as you'll see. I wish, like, in a weird way that maybe some other referee, maybe Mark Goddard would have been the third band in the cage and missed that, because we would have heard his response to this. Chris Tione just is just like most referees. He's kind of a ghost when it comes to this thing. But we'll see what happens. I don't think it's going to get overturned either, but point for this round is going to go to our challenger, Phoenix Carnivali,

just the different wordage of sack and balls and nuts. I mean, just, Just very impressive stuff. Sackage always wins. Sackage always wins. We didn't really talk about this too much, but it was a really bad weekend for, like, refereeing and nonsense. Just Bellator had a lot of shenanigans,

like the two groin strikes in 245. The main event, Patsy Mix got kicked in the chest and managed to pass it off like it was an illegal head kick. So there was a lot of chicanery going on this weekend. There was. Not a great weekend for the officials, but we digress as we move to another big story from this past, week. The in the works fight between Tony Ferguson and Dustin Porreier doesn't seem to be happening

anymore for UFC 254 as it stands right now. Who knows what happens in the next few days? Maybe this is a negotiation tactic after all. But listen, Porier wanted to be compensated for a fight of that magnitude. It didn't happen. Dustin said he's not fighting. Vendana confirmed on Saturday that they were looking at something else. So that fight looks to not be happening next month. So the UFC is apparently working on a different fight for El Kukui, much to my disappointment and to the disappointment of fans around the world. But the big news is that Horeye actually had the wherewithal to say, you know what?

Thanks but no thanks to whatever you're offering me, I want more. So Phoenix, I'm going to start with you here. We've seen this a little bit more over these past, I don't know, I'll say a year from some of the top names in the sport. We saw it with John Jones. We saw it with Jorge Mazadol, Henry Hudo, Henry Sohudo to an extent. Poirier is probably not at the level of a Jones or a Mazadol. He's a little bit lower on the totem pole, but not much.

But let's start with your reaction to this move from Poirier and subsequently, Tony Ferguson today, having his back. Well, I love the quote. I'm a prize fighter and the prize needs to be right, right? Like, that was a good enough quote. So this is a conversation we've had time and time again in his MMA media, right? We've talked about fighter pay, but we've never really had a standard to go on because fighter pay has always been so different.

You know, it's really similar to like the entertainment industry as like some actors make this much because they're top tier and some make this much. But when your main events, co-main events, interim champion, things like that, there's got to be some type of standard to how much you should get paid. And the fighters know it or they have a roundabout idea of it. And really it's just their managers fighting for them, but there's no standard into play. should this trend be happening? I think so because I think they're finally saying like, hey, let's have a standard here. The whole unionization thing, that always fell through

for one reason or another. We have the conversation. It's never really clear. We don't know what's going on with it. But I will say Ferguson having his back and fighters having each other's back with this is also a very good sign, right? Honestly, who else?

What other fight can you guys think of that would be as exciting as that matchup. Well, Poyer beat Hooker, so would it be Ferguson Hooker because Ferguson hasn't fought him yet? I really think that this is the fight to make. Like, what else do fans want to see? Max Holloway versus Tony Ferguson, Battle of the Angel Wings. That's the fight. You know what?

I think you're right, Jed. I'm going to give you my own point for that. You can deduct one for me just for that answer because I would watch that right now. It would be amazing, right? Yeah, of course. Mike, I'm going to kill your segue and just lean right in here. Go get it. Yeah, because, I mean, I think Phoenix makes a lot of great points.

I think this is just really indicative of the UFC lately, you know, saving one dollar to not make four down the road. Dustin Poirier, Tony Ferguson, that's on paper and in actuality, a fight of the year candidate. And Poirier is their person of the year. Like, let's not forget that. That was just a couple of months ago, they announced him as the inaugural winner of the Forrest Griffin Community Award, the person of the year, you know, functionally with any other organization. And they're not willing to pay him a few extra bucks to face a guy in a title eliminator fight who, you know, had 12 fights. It's unbeaten in the division. One of the scariest guys out there.

Like, it's just so ridiculous to not do this. But I'm actually pretty happy. I'm happy because it was a travesty that that fight was going to be three rounds. Like, can you imagine how angry we all would have been if that's a fight of the year? And at 15 minutes, it's just done. Like, you know, maybe there's been a back and forth and it's a tough, contentious decision, and we don't get the extra 10. So I think maybe there's a benefit here to them.

having not been able to do their jobs properly. But I don't think this is going to lead to anything future with the fighters. I mean, my stance on this has been unchanged for years. When the UFC sold for $4 billion and none of the fighters looked around and said, wow, we're not getting paid what we're worth. We should do something about that. Then there was no hope for it. I mean, that's just the end of the conversation. if a $4 billion price tag isn't enough to get fighters to unionize or, you know, team up in an

effort to increase their value and what they're receiving, I don't know what's going to be. You know, maybe you get one-off situations like this with slightly more frequency than before. But in the end, we've seen how all these have gone. John Jones retired, but, you know, it was probably going to come back and fight at heavyweight. Jorge Mosbidal didn't fight and then did take a short notice welterweight fight. and now he's looking to fight Nate Diaz. Nobody is sticking to their guns because it's hard to stand up against the rising of the tide by yourself, and no one is unionizing them.

And the one person who tried to, the UFC very politely asked to leave. So this is just not the start. This is not the start of a revolution. This is just another one-off instance of a fighter, realizing that they should get a little more and standing up for at least that portion of it. Phoenix, do you think this changes anything? because, I mean, there's so many examples we could see. Just looking at the current business model.

We're seeing fighters come in on two days notice and take fights. We're seeing Dana White award three, four, five contracts on the contender series every night. I think we understand why he's doing that because it's going to save on the bottom line. That's just the way that it is. You can pay fighters less to come in and try to achieve their dream. And if they earn an extra paycheck, that's on them to do so. And we kind of saw it with the whole Kamar Usman Jorge Mazadal thing. Mazadal said, no, I'm not fighting Kamar Usman for peanuts.

And then Gilbert Burns was like, I'll fight them. I'll fight them for whatever you want me to fight them for. So do you think that having a guy like Porriere step in and make a similar stance, who you can argue is probably on the same wavelength as a Gilbert Burns? Do you think this might change things or we're going to be having the same conversation for years to come? I don't think it's going to make people unionize, but I do think it'll help people decide whether they're going to negotiate their contracts better, you know, or perhaps that the agents and the managers who are working with their fighters have a better

idea of what the standards should be. You know, I think that that's part of it. I think that most of us, especially talent, we are so focused on the talent that we lose the business aspect of it. And it's a big part of this very short-lived career as a professional athlete for you to understand what dollars make sense, right? And what to do with your actual money. Because how many stories are of professional athletes that we know go broke after an injury or they can't fight again or they spend all their money or they emcee hammer their cash so that the entourage is or whatnot, right? Like there's a big part of that. So I think that it might not be a sign of people unionizing, but this is a sign that people are getting a little bit more business savvy on what they're worth

of what the USC is making, what pay-per-view dollars are and all those type of things, right? Like I think that's a big part of the conversation now, just meaning that we're a bit more savvy or even the people who are on the senior end are a bit more savvy. And Poria and Mossidale, these guys are on the senior end of this career. They get it. Jed, this paid off for Mazadol. He got the Usman fight. It was short notice. He lost, but he got a lot of money out of the deal. So in the end, it paid off. John Jones wants to go to heavyweight. Yeah, to vacate the title, but he's going to be in line for a big fight. I'm sure it's going to eventually work out for him. Does this work out for Porier? Can they salvage us? Do you think we may still

see Porreux and a UFC 254? Is that just gone now? Did it pay off for Mazin? I mean, yeah, you got the fight, but that's the fight he had beforehand. He got more money for it, but he got less time to prepare. And, you know, arguably, that's why he lost. I'm not sure that that's true, but

he didn't end up winning the fight. So I'm not sure we can say that it paid off for him. Perhaps in a short term, it did, but in a long term, maybe didn't. We'd have to know George Mastroles, Jorge Mastroles' bank account to really make a more educated guests in that regard.

As far as Porriere, I don't think so. I think he's going to take a fight against somebody not named Tony Ferguson, you know, sometimes later because in the end, the UFC is always the one holding all the cards. It is the same in any labor dispute ever in the world. The UFC can wait. The UFC can put on some more Tuesday night contender series fights, sign some more people and fill roster spots and fill fights on fight cards. and Dustin Porey can't do anything else to make money.

I mean, he can, but not his career path. He can't go anywhere. So ultimately, they're holding all the cards, and he has very little leverage here. Good for him to stand up for himself in this regard, but at the same time, he also flew to Coconut Creek and started a training camp, and that's expenses that aren't going to be covered now or costs. So it's hard to think that this was a good decision in any way for him. it's just tough to weigh that out and I don't think in the end he's going to get the big Brinks truck backed up to his front yard and say hey now we want you to go fight Tony maybe because

you know Gaichi was at an open or closed in event yesterday where COVID potentially was running rampant maybe it does because maybe now he gets to fight Habib if Gaetchi catches something is forced out of that fight in the next month but you know otherwise he's just going to fight Paul Felder in December for the same money he would have fight Tony Ferguson for. So I don't think this is going to do anything for him, frankly, other than make us love him all the more. So Jed said Holloway, Phoenix seemed to completely agree. He even wanted to award Jed the point for it. No love for Charles Oliver here?

Like, doesn't he deserve a big fight here? Yeah, that's not a bad fight either. It's definitely something that I think fans would be interested as well. But we're talking about those top four guys that, you know, you keep the same. wanting to circulate around. I mean, that's kind of the real fun, isn't it? I need the baddest winged mofo belt. That's what I need.

I want to see it. I've wanted that fight for years. I think it is arguably, don't get me wrong, I loved Poyer Ferguson. I think Holloway Ferguson is the second most exciting fight you could make right now, other than Connor Gachee. I think that's the most exciting fight in M.A. history. But other than that, Max versus Ferguson, is a barn burner.

I thought you're going to say Gerald Mearshaar versus Ed Herman is the most exciting fight you make. Look, we're waiting. We're not going to talk about it because Mearshaard is, Mearshaart's got to go get his ass whooped real quick, and then when that's over,

then we can start talking about making that fight happen again. All right, all right. I have a feeling that fight's going to be a lot closer than you think it is, but it's going to be interesting to see how this plays out. My personal opinion, I think the UFC is going to get this fight done and we're still going to see it on October 24th or whatever,

is, but we'll see. But what else will be interesting, it will be this final question of regulation because the point will go to Jed Bishu because Phoenix already gave it to him anyways. It makes my job much easier. Some weight just flying off my shoulders. You can give me the next one if you want, Phoenix. I'll take that one too. Definitely not.

Now we're in full competition mode, but it was just too perfect. So let's look ahead to this Saturday. UFC Vegas 11 headlined by Colby Covington, taken on Tyron Woodley. And one thing that people have noticed quite a bit is that Colby Covington, who normally does a lot of media, a lot of interviews, has been pretty quiet over the last few weeks since Penn went to paper. I'm pretty sure that my interview with him when this fight was verbally agreed to was the last time we've heard from Colby Covington. I will say I have tried. He's usually pretty responsive. There's other people that I talk to in the media space have

also tried and haven't gotten anything from Colby Covington. But not this time. I guess he's focused. But Jed, let me ask you. why do you think Colby has been so quiet heading into this fight? Do you think there's anything to this or he's just trying to focus on a grudge match and he's been wanting and calling for for so many years now? You know, Tyron Woodley mentioned this with TMZ over the weekend where he mentioned that Colby Coventon hadn't done his usual pre-fight stuff and he, of course, ascribed it to Colby being afraid that if he loses,

he'll have to retire because he talked all this trash, et cetera. I don't think that's true, but it was interesting because I had to, hadn't really considered that Colby Covington had been out of my life for a while. I'd just been thankful. But now, obviously, we're getting into fight. We can still kind of mums the word from Covington. And it's definitely interesting. I think that there's probably some truth to him being just really focused on what he knows is arguably the biggest fight of his career. I mean, I guess not because he did challenge for a real title. But if he beats Woodley here, he's right back in to get maybe one more fighting to move back there. And moreover, he does do the inverse of what Woodley says. He had

talked all this trash for years saying, I would beat Tyron Woodley. And when he backs that up, he'll be insufferable. But with merit, like, you know, if you talk, talk that trash, but you can do it. I mean, good on you, mate. So I think that there's probably some truth to that. And I really think that probably the biggest answer for this, though, is the UFC hasn't pushed this fight. The UFC has been all full steam ahead on UFC 253, the Adasani Coasta fight, with merit. That's a great fight. But they haven't done a huge promotional push for what would normally be this epic grudge match that they'd promote the hell out of. And so he hasn't been given that kind of platform that they have to bounce off of.

It would just have to be, you know, his own internal one. And I think that that's probably just fallen by the wayside as a result. So it's an interesting situation. I expected this fight week to be way more fun than it has been. But, you know, it's still a really good fight. So I'm at least interested in that. What do you think, Phoenix? Because, I mean, the UFC did announce earlier today that on Thursday,

they're going to have a press conference and they're going to face off and all that stuff. So it's kind of like Connor Nate in a way. Like I think Connor Nate, too, was probably the comparable one because those two talk so much. They got the fight booked. And there was nothing until fight week. And then we had the monster energy drinks and all that crazy chaos. Why do you think we haven't heard from Colby here, Phoenix? We've heard a lot more from Woodley than we have Colby.

That's not what I thought would happen here. I think it's a multitude of things. I 100% agree with Jed and the fact that the UFC hasn't pushed this the way they've pushed other fights before. Also because it's a UFC Vegas 11 card. It's not a pay-per-view. So the Costa fight has gotten a lot more publicity in terms of what's coming and what they're going to do all the behind-the-scenes stuff for.

So that's one factor. The second factor is, is that Colby is at MMA Masters right now. He's not at ATT. Who knows if the people at MMA Masters are like, hey, shut the F up and just train for this fight. Like, this is what we want you to do. There's a mild rivalry between them and ATT.

There's a lot at stake here. Stay focused. You know, and also, too, it's freaking exhausting to keep up the personality that Colby Covington has had to keep up in the past, you know. And it's probably expensive. I mean, paying for all those strippers, it would probably eat his bank account and he hasn't fought in a while.

So he probably has to keep that in mind too. So I think it's an amalgamation of things. I know that when Wednesday, Thursday, when all the press stuff starts to happen, he'll have his schick ready and prepared. I don't think this is a change of heart for him. But I remember the interview he did with you, Mike, which was very good, where he was basically saying, I think I'm going to see the best Tyron Woodley ever. Like he's admitting that.

he never calls like he'll say what he says about tyrant but everybody knows that when tyrant's focused he's a very dangerous athlete he's been a little bit mental in his last couple of fights for i think a lot of different reasons that we could talk about it in another show but and i love tyrant woodley but i think that this this grudge match is the passion that tyrant needs right now to put him back in a hundred percent and say what you want about coldly but he's not a stupid guy you know So I think he knows that. And when it comes to excitement, that'll happen in the cage because they are going to go out each other.

So, you know, I like him being quiet because it's like, oh, I can focus on him as an athlete and I do think that he's very good. But I think that it's those reasons. Colby playing the pro wrestling stick heel absolutely perfectly because, yeah, he says he's going to put tired in the hospital and leave him bloody and battering and stuff. But still, you got to put him over. You can't say he's like the biggest bum I've ever fought because then if he's, if you lose and you lost of the biggest bum you ever fought.

So you still kind of put them over in a, in a strange way as well. But this card is really good. Like the main event is awesome. Co-main event is Nico Price versus Donald Seroni. That's going to be wild. And then we got the return of Hamzat Shamiyev taking on Gerald Mearshard, Phoenix. People are saying on the interwebs right now that this is the best non-paperview fight card in UFC history or at worst, at least one of them.

Do you agree with that? Is this the best non-paper view card they can put together here? I really like it. You know, I really, really like it. Another one that I'm excited about is the Ryan Spann versus Johnny Walker fight, right? Like Ryan Span is undefeated. He comes from the LFA. So I saw him like change and grow. He comes out of Safe Sayyud's camp in Dallas, Texas. There's an excitement there because Walker has to get himself back. He's a young prospect. You know, I think Span is really, really interesting too. Nico Price and Donald Seroni, even though like, Saroni at this point for me, I bite my nails when I watch him fight. Like I don't want to see him fight anymore. But the intensity between those two is bound to be a fun fight anyway. So I think from start to finish, it has names, it has stars, it has prospects, and it has a huge grudge match. So I'll be, you know, making sure that I walk the dog early so that I don't make any of the fights on the card.

What say you, Jed? I mean, it's definitely, it's great. It's hard for me to know how great it is, you know, on its own merits versus just how bad the last four weeks have been. And so maybe this just is an oasis in the middle of a desert of relevance. It's hard to say. But, I mean, it's obviously a very good fight card. I don't know if I want to call this the best fight night ever or, you know, best non-paper view ever. I'd have to go crunch the numbers and check that out off the top of my head.

the UFC's first 4A on Fox, the heavyweight title fight, that's, you know, a free heavyweight title fight is one thing that's insane in its own merits. But the rest of that card, I remember being very good, Dustin Poirier, Benson Henderson was on that card. So I can't say it's the best ever, but I mean, I am thrilled to have this fight card coming up as opposed to anything the past few weeks. Granted, I will caveat for the UFC in that regard. A lot of the problems the last few weeks were part and parcel of the ongoing COVID crisis and fights falling out last minute. But still, I mean, even if a couple of fights don't make it to Saturday, which at this point, we should just assume they won't. It's still a sensational card. And a really, really good lead in to UFC 253 because now I'm getting hyped about a fight card and the next weekend's going to be amazing.

Yeah, we did lose a fight. We went from 15 to 14. Mickey Gall versus Miguel Baezza is no longer happening. 15 fights. So now we're to have 14 fights. But I'm curious, Jed. Do you have a pick for Covington, Woodley? I think Covington's going to beat Tyne Woodley.

I sort of agree with what Phoenix said about this being the fight that could maybe get Woodley kind of out of his funk. Because if anyone's going to deal, I mean, the big issue for Woodley has been he has been able to pull the trigger. He just hasn't thrown offense in his last two fights and he's lost as a result. So if anyone's going to get him to want to punch them, it will be Colby Covington. But I thought this was a bad matchup for Woodley

years ago when Covington was calling for the fight. And certainly now that Tyron Woodley refuses to punch people. It becomes an even worse matchup for him. I think Tyron Woodley is a great champion. He's a future Hall of Famer like 100%. He's passed it, man.

And the sign of a fighter being past their sell-by date is when they get tentative in there, when they can't pull the trigger. You've seen it time and again with all-time grades, and I think Woodley's just there. And so he's going to sadly fall to an avalanche of punches from Colby Coveington. What do you think, Phoenix? Because, I mean, from all indications, from everybody that I've talked to that I've seen Tyron Woodley train, he looks phenomenal. He looks like he did for the Darren Till fight. Looks like he did for the Robbie Lawler fight. That's what Gerald Mirchard told me. So what do you think? Can Tyron Woodley turn back the clock here and get it done? Or

Is he going to drop his third straight fight? When I listen to him talk, he sounds clear. And I know a lot of athletes, a number of athletes who've seen sports psychologists who have been very successful with it. It's like he freezes. It's been so disappointing because he has all the physical attributes. So you know it's been mental. So if he's dealt with those mental issues and he now becomes aggressive and engages, he has a chin. You know, so I don't get what the fear, what the apprehension has been.

It's got to be something that we don't know about. But as a person who knows him and has been friends with him and Dean Thomas for a really long time, I don't want to bet against him and I want to give him a benefit of the doubt. So out of that, I'm going to go with Woodley, but I wouldn't be surprised if Colby Covington pulls it off because I'd say what you want about him. He's a tremendous athlete. You're making me make a decision. You just don't get it because you're a sprightly 21 years old. But when you're an old man like me, you come to realize that sometimes you just can't do the things you want to do anymore.

And your brain just won't do them. Even though physically you should be able to do it, you just can't. And it's like looking at yourself and thinking, wow, I'm old and this sucks. And that's really what's going on here. One day in the far future, you'll come to realize that as well. You think that his mileage is up. You think that like the engine is. Yeah, he's, yeah.

I mean, he's, I know Tyrone Woodley is the most imposing physical specimen, like, in the welterweight division, but he is, what isn't he? He's like 37, 38, I just looked it up. And he's, you know, got fight miles on him. I think he's just kind of too many ticks on the old odometer. Well, ladies and gentlemen, this has been a heck of a battle. I'm looking forward to that fight. And this battle will continue because Phoenix Carnivali ties it up. So let us prepare ourselves. I thought the low-key compliment to my opponent. I was putting her over while I claimed victory, Mike. I was doing what you said you're supposed to do.

This is not a fight. This is verbal warfare. It's two different things. This is not pro-restling. I've got to say, though, he is amazing competition. And I feel honored, and I am inspired by you, Jed, that I will step up my game. No, no, that's unnecessary. Bring you to the worst effort for the last round.

You are a sprightly 21-year-old Phoenix. Is that what you said? Yeah, not even clothes, but thank you. 18, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to oversell. All right. I'm wearing a G.I. Joe t-shirt, so that'll help you figure out what my age is. And nobody's half the battle.

That's right. That's right. And we're going to see how much you know with the knock-around. So one last question. Neither contestant knows what this question is. I will drop a little hint that it has been alluded to already on the program. But once the question is read, each competitor will have 60 seconds to answer. You will see the timer on the screen as well.

And then we'll throw it over to Casey Leiden, our producer, the judge and the jury, and he will decide the winner takes all the pressure off of me, which I love. Now I can just host. I don't have to worry about judge anymore. But Jed, you are the champion. What would you like to do? Would you like this question first? Or, a la, the price is right.

Pass it on over to Phoenix. I'm starting to think that I keep making the wrong decision for my long-tenured championship reign, but it hasn't failed me yet. So I'm going to keep passing that option a la the price is right. All right. So Phoenix, we start with you. Here's the question. We did allude to this already.

On Friday, Bellator President Scott Coker spoke with the media via Zoom call and made a big announcement. He confirmed an earlier report from ESPN at Bellator. is going to be changing networks from Paramount to CBS sports beginning on October 1st. Now, some things to note, no more tape delays, which is just excellent news. They're also going to France with the big card. And one thing that people have been talking about, the domestic events in the United States are now going to take place on Thursday nights, beginning with Chris Cyborg versus Arlene Bianco fight on October 15th for the featherweight title.

And then the Gayguard Musassi, Douglas Lima, fight on October 29th for the vacant middleweight. title, that's also going to be on a Thursday night. So while this is definitely a big move, Phoenix, was this a game-changing move? Was this impactful? Did it take Bellator to another level in the grand scheme of things? So 60 seconds are going to be on the clock. There it is. Your time starts now. Hell M. F and yeah. Okay. And I think that like I love Coker because of strike force. and we remember all of the great things that happened with Strikeforce when they were on Showtime. Showtime in the UFC do not like each other. They were not good partners.

Showtime was like, yes, let's work with Bellator again. CBS partner, you know that entire merger. This is all big family. I think that Thursday is a smart decision because then they don't have to go up against the UFC, which makes people say, oh, fights are on. And they don't have to pick and choose, which is. a game changer as well. Starting with Cyborg, everybody still has an interest in her, even though the Amanda Nunes situation kind of brought her stock down. Even for me, I honestly never thought

Cyborg was going to lose, and then now I'll never doubt Nunes ever again. But yes, an absolute game changer for the company, and it's going to level them up. Jed Mishu, we go to you, the champ. Can he retain his title? We'll wait for 60 seconds again. get back on the clock. There we go. Your time starts right now. Mike, I'd like to ask a clarifying question. This time when they're on CBS, are they going to have a pink-haired Seth Petrazzelli kill their golden goose immediately? Because if not, it's going to be a great decision for them. I mean, the last time that was a confluence of really poor events for them that Kimbo got got like that. But that can't happen again. I mean, it could, I guess, happen that Chris Cyborg

gets defeated, but even so, that's not going to be nearly as devastating as the loss to Seth Petrazzelli on short notice was for Kimbo. Otherwise, I think even if you took everything else out of it, moving to CBS, there's cachet there. Paramount Network is a fake network. I know it's a rebrand from Spike, but if you ask 10 people what Paramount is, they probably don't know. Spike at least had a brand.

So moving to CBS, it has a real solidified brand that's obviously an improvement. and I love the Thursday night shift because people don't have anything to do on Thursday nights because they have work on Friday. Saturday, you're competing against other television and the world at large. I think Thursday is a great opportunity for them. Sensational move from Scott Coker here. I know one person that's probably going to be pissed about it or one one one league, one organization. PFL is probably like, ah, you got to be shitting me right now. Oh, yeah.

It is what it is. They're not doing anything right now anyways. I was going to say, are they still a league? Is that that still a thing? That's why we're talking, and I know Casey gets mad when we talk. Oh, okay. Well, Casey, you've been silent long enough here outside of the normal production work you've had to do. But we now throw it to you, the honorable judge.

Who is the winner? First of all, it was great having Phoenix here. A great competition. Very sportsman-like. No faking groin shots here tonight. No faking sackage shots. So my winner The 21 year old and new

Phoenix Carnival Wow I have to tell you I have to tell you When Phoenix started dropping Strike Force nuggets I was like oh boy This is going to tickle at the heartstrings of Casey Lydden Is that accurate Casey?

It touches me I got a little fuzzy, a little warm. I thought that I thought that I had it with the Kimbo. I thought going to Kimbo was the game changer. Oh, devastating to beat. Sorry. It's hard to stay at the top, Jed. It's hard.

It is. You know, I now know what Tyrone Woodley has been dealing with. It's difficult. You're getting everyone's best shot. You guys have to bring in a winger, a professional television personality, to dethrone me, but, you know, I'll be back better than ever. I believe that. I really truly believe that.

We might have a new trilogy to set up here. How about that? But Phoenix, you don't get any belt or trophy or prize money. However, you do get 30 seconds to talk about whatever it is you want to talk about, good, bad, and different in the sport of mixed martial arts with your victory. Oh, man. I'm so unprepared for this. But what I will say is that it's just, it's so cool that we do have fights during this damn pandemic

and that we do have good journalists like you guys to bring us great information. So I love the sport. I love martial arts, not even fighting. I love all martial arts. So MMA fighting, you're the shit. I hope I could curse. And, you know, I just appreciate being on. Jed, she puts you over in her final 30 seconds.

I concur. I concur with what Phoenix said. M&A fighting, we are the shit. Well, well fought battle, Phoenix. No skullduggery here, so full credit to you. And enjoy your reign at the top. I'm sure it will be long and fruitful. Thanks.

I don't believe you. I feel like that you're just, you're just inking up the deal right now. You're just waiting to come back with something. Well, look, the Chale Sunnan and Connor McGregor, you know, their strong heel personalities going into a fight. They take their losses on the chin. I could start saying that I mismanaged my energy,

but I'm going to wait for the slack thread afterwards. And for now, just full credit to you. But I'll be back. Well, we love it. So, Phoenix, you know, you've got to come back and defend. Can you come back next week and defend? Absolutely. I would love to.

We got good fights to talk about this weekend. Excellent. Yeah, I won't lie. I'm a little disappointed that I was championed during this run of terrible cards. I've lost my title as we're going into UFC 2503. It's harder to be championed during bad cards. It's hard to sit through bad cards.

So, you know, I'll give you props for that one. Thank you. I mean, this is, I mean, the UFC, if someone defended their title twice, they're getting an immediate rematch in one of these situations. So I don't know. We'll see. We'll see, Jed. Go on social media and see if the people want it.

I think they do. I want to see it again. Always. But that's going to do it for another episode of Between. The Links. Jed Bishu, long-reigning champion, no more. Phoenix Carnivali, now's got the strap around her waist, and we have a lot to discuss next week on the program, so make sure you join us. I am Mike Heck for Jed, Phoenix. Big shout out to Casey on the production. Esther with the graphics, we're out of here. Have a good night, everybody. We'll see you back here once again

between the links. Bye, guys. Love you guys. This has been Between the Links with your host, Mike Heck, brought to you by MMA Fighting, a production of Vox Media. Welcome to the Vox Media Podcast Network.