MMA Fighting - Between the Links: Episode 19: Israel Adesanya vs. Jon Jones, Carlos Condit, Stakes of Moraes vs. Sandhagen

Episode Date: October 6, 2020

Check out episode 19 of Between the Links as Mike Heck moderates the matchup between MMA Fighting’s Alexander K. Lee and UFC bantamweight Brian Kelleher as they discuss the beef between middleweight champion Israel Adesanya and Jon Jones, and if the UFC should make that fight right now. In addition, the panel lists their three stars—outside of Holly Holm—from Saturday night’s UFC Fight Island 4 event, talks Carlos Condit’s return to the win column for the first time in five years and what that means for the “Natural Born Killer,” what’s at stake in the UFC Fight Island 5 main event between Marlon Moraes and Cory Sandhagen, and whether or not the winner could move past Aljamain Sterling as the next contender to Petr Yan and the bantamweight title. Follow Mike Heck: @MikeHeck_JR Follow Alexander K. Lee: @AlexanderKLee Follow Brian Kelleher: @brianboom135 Subscribe: http://goo.gl/dYpsgH Check out our full video catalog: http://goo.gl/u8VvLi Visit our playlists: http://goo.gl/eFhsvM Like MMAF on Facebook: http://goo.gl/uhdg7Z Follow on Twitter: http://goo.gl/nOATUI Read More: http://www.mmafighting.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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You're building something big. And Square's there for all of it. Giving your customers more ways to order, whether that's in-person with Square kiosk or online. Instant access to your sales, plus the funding you need to go even bigger. And real-time insights so you know what's working, what's not, and what's next.

Because when you're doing big things, your tools should to. Visit square.ca to get started. We're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. Welcome to Between the Links, with your host, Mike Heck. Ah, yes, the iconic voice of Esther Lynn, welcomes you to a brand new edition of Between the Links right here on MMAFighting.com. Hope you're having a great week so far as you're smack dab in the middle of autumn.

The fall season, all the pumpkin lovers rejoice. We are here. The leaves are changing. And as always, we have a lot to discuss this week. UFC Fight Island 4 went down on Saturday night. UFC Fight Island 5 is going down this weekend in Abu Dhabi. We'll talk those events and some of the big storylines going on in the world and mixed martial arts right here this week on BTL.

So let's get right into this thing. Looking to build upon the momentum of last week's victory over Jedmishu. He's putting his number one contendership on the line. He is one of the most active fighters of 2020, which means him being back on this week. is no surprise at all. UFC Bannamweight and Featherway Contender, the master of the boom a teen choke,

Brian Kelleher, back on the panel. How are you, sir? I'm doing good. Thanks for having me back. I'm excited to take on Mr. Lee over here, and hopefully I can have another boom a team happen today. There you go. Now, we do have a champion in Phoenix Carnivali.

She will be back on the show next week to defend her title. She couldn't make it this week, but filling in once again on short notice is the Prince of Positivity himself. And when I told him that Brian Kelleher would be his opponent, let's just say his creative juices began to flow from MMAFighting.com, the co-host of On to the Next One, your friend in mine, Mr. Alex K. Lee, A.K., welcome, sir. Hello, everyone. Yes, yes, my creative juices did begin flowing when I heard that we had

such a prestigious guest on. Normally, it's been a while. I mean, I come from a pretty rough background. So, you know, as you know, Brian, of course, is a hip, hop, hip-ty hopper, as the kids say. He's known to drop some lines. So I have prepared a rap for Brian if you guys would like to hear. Okay, if I draw this rap, draw.

Okay. My drum machine, my beat machine is in the shop, so this will just be acapella. Just count in your head, count the beats. Keller her with respect, you're about to get checked. This is no octagon. Is the BTL set? No one can save you. Don't care what the crystal crew gave you.

My answers to these questions will enslave you. Pick away any weight. It doesn't matter. When the score is red, it's my wallet that's getting fatter. That's right, Baldi, Ed. You heard what I said. A.K. unloading verbal bullets straight to the head. Oh, my God.

That was good stuff. That was good stuff. That was awesome. To anyone listening right now? Please do not stop listening to the episode. I swear I will not wrap any more for the rest of the episode. That was for Brian. Brian, what do you think?

I'm going to have to feature him on the Baldi Ed album coming out later this year. Oh, man. So hip hop aside, let us, I mean, there's no other way to do this, but start with the big story of the week after that incredible performance by Alex K. Lee, we begin, we began last week's show talking about Israel Adasani's masterful performance against Paulo Costa, but man oh man, has he been using his time in quarantine to get the attention of one John Jones. Back and forth, these two have gone on social media.

Things have gotten very personal involving family and a whole bunch of other things in these tweets, but in the end, the volcanic superfight possibilities between these two guys is about to erupt. Of course, Mr. Kelleher, the last style. Bender has said numerous that he wants to clean out his division before moving up to 205, before fighting John Jones. But his head coach Eugene Barerman told our friends at submission radio that Izzy wants the fight with Jones and he wants it bad.

And if Jared Canineer beats Robert Whitaker and isn't ready to turn around relatively quick to fight Adisania for the title, Izzy and Eugene have already talked about him moving up to 205. So with that being said, with the tweets and everything that's gone on over the last week, Should the UFC go ahead and strike while the iron is hot here, Brian? Should they focus their attention on doing everything possible to make this fight right now? I mean, yeah, personally, I'd like to see Israel defend his title a couple of more times. You know, he's just getting started in that division.

But business is booming, like I say, for the UFC with those two. I mean, the hype on the internet right now is definitely getting me excited. I'm sure a lot of people are excited. And I think you've got to strike while the iron's hot. Like, you know, don't let it fade away. You got to get it right now. I think those two are heated up. You know, you could say they're both in their prime.

I'd say John Jones is kind of fading a little bit towards the end. But yeah, I mean, I would love to see the fight. I just don't know if they want to do it right this second or if they want to wait for Israel to defend a couple more times before they go ahead with that. What do you think, AK, do we just go right after this thing? Strike? I mean, you're a pro-wrestling guy,

and M.MA, in a way, has been garnered from the roots of professional wrestling. and you don't just go into a big storyline and a big WrestleMania about you build it up. But have we built it enough? Should we do this now or should we wait? You know, you're supposed to strike when the iron is hot. The iron is maybe is warm. It's warm. I won't deny it.

But the trash talk, it sucks. I'm sorry, it sucks. It's gotten too personal. It's gotten too personal. It's gotten too weird some of it. I don't have you guys been keeping up with all the tweets. There's a lot. I don't blame me if you haven't.

But it's gotten a bit weird, inappropriate. I'm sure that people get a kick out of this sort of thing. maybe the Jose Youngs of the world, the hers of the world, maybe they find this sort of thing amusing. But, you know, more sophisticated people like myself, we need a little more substance when it comes to build up to a fight. In MMA, I'm not sure exactly what that means. We've had, you know, feuds and all kinds of weird premises, but this just doesn't quite feel right the way the things they're saying to each other. I don't think it makes for good fight buildup. Maybe it makes for good clickbait headlines for us.

But for the fighters, for the fight itself, I don't know. I think there's a lot of compelling matchups for a Disneya 185. I don't know, Canineer, Whitaker rematch, Darren Taylor, Jack Herman. There's names there. And I've always been a fan of great champions building up their resumes through consistency in addition to big names. Like George St. Pierre, you know, Andrew Silva, those guys always come to mind.

Like, there's big names, but there's also kind of some fights in there that were just title defenses, you know. So I'd like to see that. And I think he has a skill to do that and the versatility to do that. And as for John Jones, I mean, I think Jan Blahovic, if any of any, one deserves a fight, it's him. So I'd like to see that first. I think, I think Jan Blahovic has earned that right. We're kind of an interesting spot because if John Jones decides to make that move to go to heavyweight and continues to put on size and put on muscle and maybe get to

225, 230, get a little bit bigger and stronger, that cut to 205 is going to be a little bit more difficult than if they were to do it now. But let me ask you this, Alex, because when you have fantasy matchmaking like this, people like to have opinions on it. And they're offering and they're often differing. And the odds makers are having different opinions about this fight as well, because they like to put out these future lines. And I was looking at it earlier today. Bavada has

John Jones as a minus 375 favorite, and the comeback on Adesania is at a plus 285. But betonline.ag has Jones as a minus 115 and Adesania at a minus 105. So it's nearly a pickum from that site. So the odds makers can't

agree on this one. Who do you think is right here, in your opinion, when when basing these odds. And if they're both wrong, how would you set it? I mean, I favor John Jones against almost anyone. I will say this. I'm of the thought that putting aside any, you know, PD controversy, however you want to weigh that, I think, I still think he's the best fighter I've ever seen in MMA pound for pound.

I wouldn't bet against him against anyone. However, however, in the case of Edithsonia, and what we've seen of John Jones, at least is he is very willing to, and kind of always has been, very willing to play to his opponent's strengths, you know, just to show that he can outdo them. And in the past, he's dominated some of those matchups. He's done a great job out wrestling wrestlers, outstriking strikers. But the last two fights with Reyes and Tiago Santos, I think a lot of people, even if they think he won both those fights would agree, he didn't exactly, you know, didn't exactly beat these guys in their own game. It was really touch and go there for a while.

If he tries to beat Israel Adisnia at his own game at kickboxing, I don't see how you can't favor, is he. I really, there's no way to know. This is what the problem for the oddmakers is. There's no way to know what the game plan is going in. But if for whatever reason you think that it's a striking battle, for me, I would go easy as far as two to one favorite. That's how far away would go. If you could somehow predict that it was going to be a kickboxing fight because he's,

I think he's maybe the best striker in the UFC today. What do you think, Brian? I mean, you have some insight into this world. You like to play the ponies, so to speak. How would you line this fight? Yeah, no. I mean, I would lean a little towards Israel too as far as like if the fight stayed up on the feet. but I'm a guy that I can't go against John Jones just based off his resume and who he's fought and what he's done.

I feel like he would be smart in there. You know, those guys at Greg Jackson's, they set up really good game plans. They don't let their fight or just go in there and get reckless. And I think John Jones is his wrestling, his size would play a big factor in this fight. You know, Israel's shown a lot of improvements in takedown defense. But a guy like Jones is, you know, he's going to land ground and pound on you. He's going to look for submissions. And I don't think he's going to shy away and freeze up like some of Israel.

Israel's other opponents in the past. So let me ask you this, Brian. If we woke up tomorrow morning and check Twitter and there's just a slew of tweets that, let's just say like someone reported it, probably MAAfighting.com, because that's what we do, that this fight is happening on December 12th. John Jones versus Israel Adasani, the fight is happening at 205 pounds. Who are you picking? I'm picking John Jones.

I mean, he spent his career there essentially at 205. You know, he's a big guy, too. He can fight at heavyweight. He has a big frame for the weight class. I think, you know, Izzy, it would be his first time dealing with something like that. I feel like with John Jones's credentials and his wrestling skills and even submission skills as well. So I would lean towards Jones. AK, you're our prediction guru here on M.Afighting.com.

I mean, and there's a lot of questions unanswered here. We don't know what game plans are going to be. The trash talk is what it is. There's no press coverage, no nothing. So there's really not a lot to look forward to. And we're not picking the fight the day before. So if you had to pick, if they booked this fight for December 12th and someone said, winning this fight. If all your friends hit you up because now they're suddenly interested in

MMA, who are you picking? Nobody look at my predictions, first of all, for this past weekend's UFC Fight Island four card. Truck, remind me to delete that from the site. Thank you. I would, you know what? I'm feeling crazy. I'm going at this and yeah. I'm going to disneyer. The size is definitely matters. It is one of the things like, I think when we saw when we eventually saw them face off and saw them at weigh-ans and saw them in the octagon, I think there probably would be a moment of like, whoa, like, this is what a real light, heavyway looks like, and this is what a guy, you know, coming up from 185 looks like. But, but Izzy definitely has the height and reach. That's a good thing. The mass and strength is a totally other question.

But height and reach is good. And again, if we're talking striking, I just haven't seen that dominant, you know, clinch game and wrestling from John Jones in so long. And I know it's there. I mean, the guy, you just know he can do it. I just haven't seen it so long. I would, I would go wild and I would pick it, isn't you? We will certainly keep our eye on this. A lot, obviously would need to happen. I think Israel Adisani has a good grasp on reality and what makes sense. And he has his eye set on Jared Kennedy Air. And I think of Robert Whitaker beats Jared Kennedy here in October 24th, this conversation might get a little more, a little more fiery, so to speak. But the point for this round is going to go to MCAK. He is on the board. I think the rap kind of put you

over the edge in a pretty even battle. So I'm glad you got to get that rap out of the way to get you on the board as we move ahead to this past Saturday night, UFC Fight Island 4. It was an interesting car. We had some great performances. We had some good finishes. Holly Holm cap things off with one of the best showings of her entire career. She dominates Ardini Aldana. And I think we're all in agreement of what her next fight should be after Saturday night. So rather than make this question about Holly Holm, let's make the question about the rest of the card. AK, we begin with you. We've had a question like this from time to time on the program. In your opinion, aside from Holly, home, who are your, like the

NHL does it, who are your three stars of UFC Fight Island 4 and why? This first guy I'm going to name, he might, I would argue, depending who you ask, maybe he might have just been the biggest star period without this, without this, you know, no Holly home qualifier. I think Carlos Condit,

even though he wasn't on the main card, him winning was such a big deal, I think, for a lot of those fans. This guy hasn't won a fight, I think in five years, five straight losses, some of them, some of those losses, pretty pretty convincing, pretty like, you know, the kind that make you ask, man, how much this guy really have left. So to be put on the prelims against a gamer, an absolute gamer in Court McGee, I mean, Court McGee

is as tough as they come, very experienced. And for him to put on the performance that he did, I think a lot of people, this is one fight where people were picking Condit to win, and for him to deliver in such convincing fashion, which is huge, a great story. So I would actually maybe even put him first over Holly Holm, pardon me. Otherwise, the other two names, I have to go with sort of two prospects. one guy who's quickly going from prospect to contender, Casey Kenney, so dominant against Alatang Hailey.

And a guy who has said all the right things since he's joined the UFC, he's won fights. He keeps saying, I want to fight as much as possible. His only loss to another stud in Marab de Wallisv. He's just such an intriguing prospect. And he absolutely delivered for anyone who was seeing him fight for the first time. And maybe it's heard about him, what a prospect is. They were like, yeah, okay, I get it. Yeah, this could be a future UFC title contender.

And the other one, also not quite as dominant. as the last two names, but I think she's just so intriguing as Loma Lopudmi, who beat Jun U Frye, who. Because that division is, again, there's a lot of room for upward movement. She's very young, but she has a memorable name, obviously, a distinct style, which is really important, I think, in MMA. And the results have been good. Her only loss, you know, to Angela Hill, which is just a little too far for her at this

point. But another name, who, again, people seen for the first time were like, I would definitely want to see more. So those are my, so I go, Carlos Condit, Casey Kennedy, and Loma, look with me. All right, Brian. And who are your three stars outside of the preacher's daughter? Yeah, one of my stars was Carlos Condit. I just think, you know, an OG of the game that hasn't fought in, what, two years?

And I don't think he's won in like five years or something like that. It's been a long time. So for him to, you know, at his age, how long he's been in the game to come back and look that good against, against Courtney McKee, who is like, you know, a savvy veteran who's a really tough guy, not obviously at the highest tier in the game right now. But it was really impressive. I think Condit looked refreshed. His movement was great. His kicks looked really good. He was able to take big shots from court McGee as well. And just the amount of time that he's had off, I gave him one of my stars. Another guy I gave was actually a look, well, it went to a draw. I gave a Cooley Bow a star because he fought a guy in Jordan who, you know, has a lot of hype behind him. And his fight against Feeley was, you know, really impressive. He hung in there with a top guy in Feeley. And I was, you know, on the lookout for this guy. And his opponent.

his debut comes in and kind of steals the show, even though it was a draw. It was like, wow, this guy is something, you know, is something to look out for as well. And then my third would be Jermaine Durandumie. I think, you know, 28-year-old kickboxer who is, you know, primarily just striking, gets a put someone to sleep with a Bumatine, right? I mean, come on. I was impressed with that, of course. No arm man, she puts her to sleep.

And, you know, she's shown a lot of improvements in her takedown defense. and also her submission skills now. You know, she's someone you got to watch out for to try to take down. You know, you got to deal with her striking, number one. But then you go and shoot on her and she's putting girls to sleep now. So that was my last star. Brian, I'm curious because, you know, A.K. had mentioned Casey Kenny. And then another guy in the card, Kyler Phillips, had a great performance as well.

And one of the big stories, at least definitely surrounding Kenny. And then after the fight with Phillips as well is that both these guys want to keep the train moving. They want to stay on Fight Island. They want to book fights. They want to get turned around quick. There are reports out there that Casey Kennedy's got a fight Nathaniel Wood on October 24th at UFC 254. And I know that we have this conversation in 2020. I know Hamzat Shamaev is the guy people think about at the top of that list because of how meteoric his rise has been this year.

But I would argue that you're the guy that sort of got this ball rolling in a crazy year. What do you make of this trend catching on more and more that it's not just like, you know, I just want the right matchup. I don't care who they give me. It's get me in there now and then get me in there next week if he can. Yeah, I think when the pandemic hit and, you know, I took notice on how the UFC was running things and how they were filling in short notice fights so often and so many guys were willing to step up. And they were, you know, making different circumstances, allowing guys like myself to fight in different weight classes, stuff like that, depending on how short the notice was.

I think it's brilliant. I think these guys are going to stay in the media, keep active, stay out. stay out there in the eyes of the fans and get a lot of, you know, a lot of quick paydays. If you want to stay on Fight Island, you're kind of there already. You might as well do it

instead of go back and forth. I think Casey Kenney had a very impressive performance to throw that many kicks in one fight was amazing. And it's great to see these guys willing to just fight and get right back in there and stay active. Are you digging this trend, A.K., because I'm digging it. Yeah, I mean, it is almost like

kind of what we talked about at the beginning, like having as many cards as possible and how much familiarity can this create with the fans, right? Because again, this is a new age. You know, this isn't the kind of the, it was a bit of a cooler period when the UFC was coming up and you only saw Chuck LaDelle fight like twice a year or something. And it was a big deal, you know, it was a huge deal. But now can we draw fans in a different way by saying, hey, do you remember that guy you just saw a fight?

You know, guess what, in a month, you could see him again, you know? It's almost like a regular TV show. You're regularly scheduled programming. So in that sense, I'm in favor of it. Some people, again, but it does go from, you know, to change depending on fighter to fighter. Some fighters will want to maintain sort of a mystique of keeping a less frequent fight schedule. And some will benefit from, again, their face being out there. Again, I think Brian's one of them.

I think anyone who's paid attention to the, you know, post-COVID era, Brian is one of those faces that people are seeing often. And when he fights, there's just that click of name recognition, you know. They see his face. There's that visual recognition. And that's big. So again, it might not be like the sexiest way to promote people as far as like, oh, you're going to see them all the time.

But again, we're in a different era now, you know, we're different than it was 10 years ago, 15 years ago. And I think it suits the ESPN and ESPN Plus game plan right now. Mike, can I break protocol for one second? This may cost me a point, but I have to ask Brian a question. Brian, because you mentioned cool about, what did you think of the 3027 Jordane score? That I didn't understand. I thought that was pretty damn crazy.

Yeah, that was wild. I don't know how the hell that happened. I thought which round was it that was that was really close? Was it the second round that was hard to kind of figure out? That's what I thought. But the first round, Jordan got dropped later on at the end. And then the third round was a 10-8. I don't know.

It was kind of confusing how they came up with that. It didn't make sense to me at all. Yeah. Yeah, it's just wild. Fight Island being Fire Island. Speak at a Fire Island. And we talked about like the recognition of faces and stuff. Like look at Jared Gordon after this week.

like the UFC Fight Island Declassified series came out on ESPN Plus, and Jared Gordon has gotten more notoriety in the last, you know, three or four days than he has maybe in his entire career. Maybe it's because he had such a good story. Maybe because he took his mask off on the plane and maybe almost killed the entire, the entire process the first time around boat. Jared Gordon's a good friend of the show. But I highly recommend you check out the Declassified series on ESPN Plus.

It's great. Rory Carp is the man behind that. He did a hell of a job. It's really good. So I definitely recommend you check that out. But the point for this round goes to, boom! He is on the board. Boom, baby.

There you go. So both of you guys mention this as we move on to our next topic. You mentioned that on the top of your star list was Carlos Condon. He gets his first win in nearly 2,000 days. He defeats Cort McGee. He looks pretty damn good doing it. Some people I've seen on social media, and that's maybe just because that's the nature of social media,

especially with MMA fans. Some people are sort of downgrading the wind saying don't get too excited. But you know what? Forget that noise. Court is a tough customer. Konda looks like his old self in a lot of ways. First off, Brian, let me ask you this. Heading into the event, and even during his media day,

Kanda was being compared to fighters like BJ Penn, like Donald Saroni, Diego Sanchez, Taryn Woodley, and others where these guys are legends. They've had incredible careers. But when fans and media members see their name on these cards, we're a little bit weary of it. Maybe it's just because we care about their health and safety or we just don't want to see them go out there and have a performance like that.

With Condit's performance and getting that win, are we removing him from that conversation now or will it be kind of on a fight-by-fight basis in your opinion? I think more of a fight-by-fight basis. I don't think you could just completely remove him, especially beating Cort McGee. It's a good win for him, but it's also a winnable fight. It's not like one of those, you know,

all right, this guy is back for real. He's going to make another run. I mean, there is a place for fighters like Condit, you know, that he can fight, you know, somewhat winnable fights and not have to put him against the best of the best right now towards the end of his career. You can give him matchups that are a little bit more reasonable. So I think, you know, you can't just, you know, look at one win and be like, the guy's back. He's a killer again, this and that.

You got to give him a little bit more time to show that. So I think we should let it kind of settle maybe a couple more fights and really see where he's at. What do you think, A.K., because, I mean, this is a sport where what have you done for me lately, and what he's done is gone out and get a win. Now, I'm not saying he should go in there and, you know, and fight Wonderboy Thompson next week or anything like that and fight a top five guy. But at least when you see Carlos Condit's name attached to a fight, are you going to be a little less worried about it or is it totally dependent on the matchup itself? Yeah, it has to be dependent on the matchup. I mean, I think any of the fighters, once they get to the stage,

and especially guys like Carlos Condit, who have been in the wars that he's been in, you're always worried. Even for a cowboy Seroni, who fights three or four times a year, that frequency of action does not make me more comfortable when he gets in there. And I'm sure he'll say the same thing. I sure he'll say the same thing. He's one of the fighters who's been most open about like, yeah, I'm terrified before I go in the octagon. I don't think it's any easier.

And for us on the outside, we can feel like a fraction, you know, a fraction of that anxiety on the part of fighters. So, yeah, I mean, I'd be somewhat worried depending on who they match him up with. But I think it's cool that he got that win and that we can sort of, as we talked about on, onto the next one, sort of talk about him moving into this area of like rematches, you know, rematches with fights that were people would want to see again either because they were so good or, you know, maybe the first time the fight happened, the results weren't as conclusive as they could have been. So yes, I think for the most part, I think there's very few matchups that I would be super worried

about. For the most part, I am actually looking forward to what the UFC has next for Carlos Condit. With these other fighters, we mentioned A.K., and BJ Pan aside, because he's had a whole bunch of other issues outside of the Octagon, do you feel like there could be this trickle-down effect, that maybe Condit's win, you know, looking a bit more like his old self, pulling the trigger? Could this maybe motivate the Woodley's and the Sanchez and the Saronis and let them know that, like, hey, it can be done. We're not done yet. If Carlos can do it, I can do it too. we're really going to find out with the the Robbie Lawler, Mike Perry fight, that's for sure, because that's a fight where if that guy can't, whatever that guy gets up to,

can't motivate Robbie Lawler to pull the trigger, then nothing can. Then we'll know. But I'm in a bit of a disadvantage here because obviously, you know, Brian will know a lot more about kind of how much fighters draw from watching other fighters' performances. But I will offer that. Like, from what I know, guys like Woodley, Soroni, Robbie Lawler, Diego Sanchez, all of them, they don't really need much to convince them to take another fight. If anything, it's the opposite.

I think they require a lot of convincing to leave the game. So they have the reasons for wanting to continue, whether it be like monetary or wanting to go on a win, wanting a specific opponent, whatever. So yes, I have to think Condit's success on Saturday is actually going to go a long way for some of these other veterans as far as thinking that they themselves can also pull out one more vintage performance. So, yeah, I do think, I don't know if trickle-down is a funny way of putting it. But now that you mention it, I do think that they will, they're going to

take as much positive things away from that as they can. What do you think, Brian? I mean, you obviously look at things through a different lens being a fighter yourself. Do you think that maybe this motivates some of these other guys saying, like, I don't know why I haven't been able to pull the trigger? I don't know why I'm been myself, but I just saw Carlos do the thing, and now I'm going to do it. I think it could have a bit of a temporary trickle-down effect, but I don't think it'll last long enough to kind of transform themselves into their next fights and really be a

psychological game changer for them. I think it's a lot deeper than that. You know, once these guys get to a point where they're going into fights and they're, they're overthinking things and they're not quite confident in pulling the trigger, I think there's deeper problems to that, you know, that goes back to, you know, how are you preparing for these fights now? Are you burnt out in training or you're not feeling the same way about the sport? I think a lot of these things come into play later down the road as a veteran in the sport. And you have to always battle that and figure out a way to kind of bring yourself back to that young lion, you know, where you wanted it so bad and you were in the gym working as hard as possible. And every time you went into fight, you were there

to kill or be killed. You know, it's like, it's different mentalities as you go throughout the sport. You got to keep your mind in check. So I think it'll kind of give them a quick inspiration. Like, man, look at Condit. That's awesome. But I think by the time they get to the next fights, they forgot all about that and they're going through the motions again. And hopefully they have their act together by then. And that's why you're here, Brian. What do you want to see next for Condit? Brian? I wouldn't mind seeing like a Nick Diaz. I don't think they, I don't know if they would do that with Nick Diaz because his name

value is a little bit different. I think it's more like Jorge Mazvedal, Nick Diaz kind of style name value wise. I'm trying to think of another good matcher for Condit. Let's see. Give me some names. Give me some names. I'll pick one. Matt Brown.

I like that one. That's a beautiful one right there. That seems to be the most popular one. A.K., and you're on the rematch train still, right? Like nothing's changed over the last. You know, day or two since we did on to the next one. Yeah, other than Matt Brown, which again, a lot of people mentioned, it feels, I mean, it was books twice over the last, like seven years. So I think a lot of people are just assuming it happened.

So it feels like a rematch, but no, that would be a fresh one. And then should Robbie Lawler beat Mike Perry, I am just dying to see him fight conned again. I think that would be a great send-off for both guys. Though in all likelihood, both guys would probably, if it's a great fight, they would just fight like two or three more times afterwards. And we're doing this whole dance again 12 months from now. Yeah, I don't want to see Shami. I don't want to see Jeff Neal. These are the kind of fights we want to see.

Please know. I saw those both suggested, and I was like, no, we're not going to do that. But I think this is great for him. It's great for the sport. I'm definitely intrigued and excited to see what is next for Carlos Condit. And the point for this particular round goes to the fighter. Brian Kelleher. I mean, I kind of feel like it was unfair.

It was almost like a tailor-made question in a way to him. But let's get to this final question of regulation because UFC Fight Island 5, goes down this Saturday night in Abu Dhabi. Brian, I'm sure you'll be paying attention to the main event in a big way. We'll get to you in a moment. Big one at 135 between Marl Marais and Corey Sandhagen. And I'm looking forward to this one.

This is a hell of a fight. This one's definitely circled on my fight card. Alex, we're going to begin with you here. This is a big one at 135. Piotr Yon is the champion. Al Jermaine Sterling looks to be the number one contender. Words have been said that that may be the case, but nothing has been made official as of yet.

right off the bat, and we'll dive into this a little bit deeper at a moment. What is that stake for these two guys when they fight on Saturday night? I mean, absolutely, a title shot could potentially be at stake. If the last question was geared towards Brian because it's about fighter stuff, you know, fighter mentality, this question is geared for me because it's about UFC and matchmaking BS. And I'm all about that. I'm all about that life. No, I mean, look, I mean, like what we're asking could, you know, could one of these guys

get the title shot instead of us getting the Peotor-Yon-Aljermaine-Steirling match-up. And of course, because that matchup doesn't even exist yet. Like, we've all mentioned it. We've all talked about it so much that it's almost like a Matt Brown and Carlos Condefi, we'd assume it happened. It has not happened. Okay, so this is an easy one. Yes, either Malamoraj or Corey Sanhagan could slide right in, especially if they're willing

to do it for the right price, because let's be real here. Our man, Brian Kelleher could get the next child shot if he agreed to fight Yon for a nickel. Okay, that's just the truth. I'll do it. Hold on. I got my click. I got my clickbait headline. Hold on. Let me take a note here. But I say that because, I mean, Brian is certainly good enough. He's qualified to be in the mix. And let's be honest, the UFC's priority in these situations is to find the most cost effective challenger possible who's also because I bring up Josie Aldo. I don't know. I don't know the negotiations, but he came up a loss. And I think it's more than just a respect he had and more than just the contract to end to that fight with. with Marlin that got him in that title fight. I'm just saying this is speculation. It's just a reality of the situation.

So I also want to give credit to both, of course, Marlon Rij and Sanhagen. Because look, if one of them picks up a spectacular finish, then it's well deserved if they suddenly got put in the conversation. You know, what have you done for me lately? Al Jermaine has been campaigning a lot, which fans don't always find interesting. One of these guys is actually fighting this weekend, gets a big win. And you will see a lot of fans go like, yeah, yeah, maybe Marais or San Diego should get it. So especially Marais, who should really have had a title shot.

out already. What do you think, Brian, stylistically, and that I'll get your take on this. When you look at Marias and Sandhagen, what sort of sticks out to you? What sorts of things you're going to be looking for from both guys from X and O's perspective? You know, I think Mariahs is probably the scariest guy at Bannonweight in the first round. His power, his explosion, that switch kick that he has to the head, to the body. Like, his aggression in the first round is a monster. And I think that's where he might have to make a little bit of improvement. You know, his gas tank has shown to fade as a later rounds come about. And Sanhagen's a guy that can go a lot more rounds. I feel like can kind of hold

his volume and fight at a different kind of pace. He's such a big long, you know, he's got a long range and frame for the weight class. And if he utilizes that well, I think he can give Mariah's problems if he stays at range and kind of peppers him from the outside. And Mariah is obviously going to want to get a little closer and utilize those power shots and those switch kicks. But I find, you know, I find this fight very interesting because Marlins beat. Aljo and San Hagan's lost to Aljo. So there are those ties there. And I think that that makes it a little bit more intriguing as well. Now, as AK sort of alluded to, we've seen in the UFC many times. Heck, we talked about it at the top of the show with Israel and John Jones that the UFC may have

a certain vision of something, but things can pivot or change very quickly. Boom, is there a chance that plans could change on Saturday night? Like, Imaral Maraeris goes out there and he finishes Corey Sanhagan in emphatic fashion because Sanhagen's coming out that quick loss to Al Jermaine Sterling. So I don't think he's in the mix here. He could be if he beats Mara Mariah's, maybe another win or two. But is there any chance MaraMarias could jump the queue and get the next title shot? I think so because, you know, I think the UFC is obviously very biased towards guys who've finished fights on the feet.

You know, you get knockouts, TKOs, finishes like that. They're a fan of you. They like to see that. They know the fans like to see that. So a guy like Aljo, unfortunately, he has a different kind of style. And it's taking him a long road. and he's gotten better with, you know, pulling the trigger and being a little bit more aggressive as we saw in the Pedro Muno's fight. But he's not a guy that puts guys out and makes highlight real knockouts.

And Marlon Mariahs is that kind of guy. I think if he can KO a guy like Sanhagen, they look at it as, well, Aljo submitted him, but Marlon Mariah has caoed him. And he also killed Aljo. So we're going to maybe have him skip the line here. I think it's very possible they do that. It'd be really unfortunate for Aljo, and I wouldn't like to see that at all, but it's possible. So, A.K., if you are Al Jermaine Sterling right now, what are you thinking right now? Are you thinking like, are you thinking like the title shot's mine?

Like, do you have that confidence at this point? Or are you just like, man, I am the biggest Corey Sanhagen fan in the world. Yeah, he's definitely got to be rooting for Sanhagen. Right now, he's just thinking, man, another day, another load of BS, you know, what else is new? Because, yeah, look, it would be absurd if, I mentioned the possibility of Sanhagen getting the title shot instead should he finish, you know, should he finish on Marais. But I really do think that can happen, which, but as Brian bought up, like, that would be absurd because Sterling clearly beat him last time, right?

A very clean victory, you know, so it would be strange. But I could see the UFC doing it, definitely in the case of Marais, because the MMA math is there. You know, I'm sure there's people who would have Dana White ready to say at the press conference or whenever this is announced and he's having to answer these questions from the media, like, look, he beat Aljo, he beat Corey. He should have gotten the title fight after beating Aldo. I don't know.

I'm not sure what happened there, but. He should have gotten that title fight. So like I said, the MMA math workout after, it'll be very justifiable for Merlin to get it. I'm of the camp, absolutely, that Al Jemaine has done enough. And I think they should make the money right for him. And they should make the fight with Piotr Yan happen. But we'll see how negotiations go after Saturday. And just how high Marlon wants to go with his negotiations for his own title shot.

Because again, like I said, if he's willing to maybe, you know, maybe accept a little something else on the back end or in the future or some future guarantee, could be him next. MMA math is one thing, but UFC spreadsheet math, AK? I mean, what's the difference? Well, first I'll say someone who's, I'm glad we had Brian Keller on here because I think this man has messed with their spreadsheets. We've talked about this in other shows. This man, who is a bantamate contender, three straight fights at 1.45, Nick Maynard and Sean Shelby must want to kill you.

They must want to be like, they must be like, what are you doing? Are you a bantamette? Are you a further way? Our spreadsheets are very delicately put together. So have you heard anything from them, Brian? Like, have they told you, like, what's going on here? What's what were you doing with these fights? No, man, I honestly, I think they're just happy to have a guy that's willing to step up and fight whoever and just get in there and scrap.

And I, you know, for me, I kind of took things upon my own hands early on when I fought the guy knocked out. What's his name? You guys know better than me. Hunter Azure. Hunter Azure. I'm sorry to say the guy knocked out. He's a good dude. But, yeah, like when I fought him, me and him kind of DM'd on Instagram and set the fight up ourselves and kind of pushed our managers.

is, hey, you down to do this at 145? Yeah, I'm down too. Forget weight cutting. Like, why do we want to cut extra weight and fight unhealthy when our training is restricted in the pandemic? So, you know, I kind of started it there. And then I kept the train rolling. I kept kind of calling out new guys and just, hey, let's do it at 145. You down.

They say, yes. The UFC is like, well, we got a fight already set. Why not let them do it? You know, there's a lot of restrictions and weird things going on. So they were cool about it. So I'm riding the 145 train until they make me start. cutting my way to get back to 135. I think winning is the biggest thing, you know.

So let me ask you this, Brian. This is nothing to do with the show. If, and you don't have to reveal if this is the case or not, but are you confident in saying that you're going to fight November 7th? Like, that's when you want to fight. You have a name in mind. Are you confident that this happens? Yeah.

I mean, the verbal agreement's there. You know, we both say we want the fight. You know, he's good with that timeline. I'm good with that timeline. So I'm confident that it's going to happen for some odd reason, though, like, Even though we both agree right now, the UFC seems to be like doing a lot of things on short notice. And I'll probably find out about two weeks before that night that they're willing to do the fight. And that's actually favorable for me because then I said, well, you're giving me two weeks notice.

Let's do it at 145. And then they say, yeah, he's right. Well, there you go. That will be a fun fight. Should that be booked? And obviously, Marais v. Sandegas should be a fun fight. Pretty good card over off. you actually take a look at it from top to bottom

as the road to UFC 254 on October 24th continues. And guess what, ladies gentlemen, the road on between the links will also continue on because the Prince of Positivity has tied things up. He gets the point, and that means it's A.K.'s favorite segment, it's the knockout round. One question, unbeknownst to either of these gentlemen, they will each have 60 seconds to give their response.

And then all the weight is off my shoulders. We'll hand it off to the honor, judge E. Casey Liden to render the final decision. Now, Brian, you are the man with the victory last week. So you get to decide whether you would like to answer this question first or if you would like to pass it on over to MCAK. I'll go first because I get confused after I listen to my opponent talk for too long. I'm like, I forgot everything that I was thinking about.

So I'll take the first slot. A.K., how do you feel about this? You get to go last and not with your choice. If you're not first, you're last. So now I'm worried. Like I have gone first and every time I've had the opportunity. This is the first time I'll be going second. I am.

I'm throwing off. I'm not going to lie. I'm thrown off. I got a second. I guess I think they have a second to recover. It's part of my game plan. Cool. All right.

Well, we have a hell of a question here. And AK, get excited. Because I have a feeling that you going last might actually help you. But Brian, during the UFC 254 virtual media day, Habibnur Magamadav said something that stuck out in a lot of people's minds. He said that Dana White and the UFC have promised him something special if he were to defeat Justin Gachi on October 24th. He has asked to not have that surprise revealed to him until after the fight.

Dana White has since confirmed this, as has Habib's manager Ali Abdelaziz. In addition to that, Ali took to Twitter and said, quote, I can pull it up here, I can guarantee you that surprise won't be Connor or GSP. It's completely between me and Dana. It will be something big. So, boom, I ask you. what do you think it could be with the information we have? What could this surprise be for Habib if you had to guess?

We're going to put 60 seconds on the clock. There it is. And your time starts now. I'm going to be honest. I'm quite confused on this one. I'm a little bit lost. I'm going to keep it short and sweet because this is the only thing I could think of off the top of my head right now.

And I'm going to go with the Hall of Fame for Kabib. Maybe this is the last one. Maybe if he wins this one, they do a Hall of Fame for him. And they call it a career right there. And that's probably the best UFC MMA career there has ever been. So that would be something. All right. It was short and sweet.

Still has, do you want to wrap for the last 30 seconds? A.K. Lee. Please don't beat me. I don't know. Well, there you go. All right. Well, I mean, this is a tough question, folks. This is a tough one.

Honestly, I was torn between two. I was torn between this question and what's going on. with the PFL and the lawsuits. And, well, I don't know if we had enough information to give a compelling answer on the PFL situation. But AK, same question for you. 60 seconds on the clock. What do you think?

Go. I hate you for making me think about this. But if it's not going to be GSP and it's not going to be Connor, the not Connor thing, I think is to throw you off a little bit off the trail because I think this might involve Connor. I think we might get a boxing slash MMA card feature. Connor Greger and Manny Pacquiao, as has been rumored. And Heaven Help Us All, a special rules martial arts match between Habibna Mugamatov and the Floyd Mayweather Jr.

One of those weird first round is boxing, second round is kickboxing, third round is MMA, something like that. I'm only saying this because I don't know if I believe they really do have something concrete planned. It's one thing for them to say it, but if we are taking them by their word, Habibna Mav Mavamedov versus Floyd Mayweatherer. in some form at some brilliant freak show, UFC van, also featuring Connor McGregor and Mani Paki. These crazy kids, all these crazy millionaires and billionaires are going to work something up. All right. Well, Brian, you did have 30 seconds left. So let me let me just follow up real quick with you because AK thinks the Connor's, the Connor words, you know, maybe throwing us

off the trail. Could the GSP thing be throwing us off the trail as well? Because I feel like that's the direction everybody wants to go here. The UFC seems interested. Habib definitely wants it. GSP has said that that might be the only fight to get him off the couch and back on the octagon, not that he's on the couch. The guy's working hard. He's in way better shape than I'll ever be. What do you think? Yeah, I mean, that's why I was kind of lost with the question, because I would think it was GSP.

I mean, that's the biggest best thing you could do at this point, bring him back and kind of see who's the goat essentially at this point in M. So I would have thought that that was the big news, you know, that that was what Kib would want, you know, to finalize his career. But yeah, because we've heard Khabi say he only wants like one or two more fights essentially. So if that was that, I don't know what else it could be. I mean, could you imagine, though, if Khabi agreed to do the ultimate fighter against Connor McGregor? I mean, I can never see him agreeing to that, but that would be hilarious. They could never be in the same room together. No way.

They'd have to do it in like two different countries or some. There's no way you put these guys anywhere near each other. It's wild. Do it over Zoom. Do it over Zoom. Yes, there you go. I love the ultimate fighter. Even I don't want to see that.

I'm still waiting for the ultimate fire to come back. That is not how old. What do you think of the Calvin Cater-Max Holloway idea that's being floated out there? I mean, there's no like reports about this. That's what Cater wants. My, here's the thing is my idea for the ultimate fighter was, I always thought they should treat it like Iron Chef. I always thought they should have had like four or five established coaches. Because some people on that show were so good as coaches and just like aren't necessarily active fighters.

I would have loved to see Matt Serra coach again. I think Matt Serra was hilarious. Chil Sonan, I think, is a spectacular coach. I would love to see him brought on as a regular coach for the open fighter. It would be so good. And there's a lot of other guys out there. Frank Mir, I think, would be really cool, something like that. So I wish they would move to having coaches be coaches and not worry about the coaches fight at the end, which more often than not, I think over the last 10 seasons or something, just fell through it, it didn't even happen.

So I still think there's a lot of juice left in the elbow fighter. But I'm also a mascus. So make it out what you will. There you go. I think Mazelal and Covington would be pretty interesting if you could do that. Stop. Maybe that should have been the question. Who should coach the Eltsmaid.

But be that as a may, we have heard the arguments. And listen, for those watching via the magic of YouTube right now, we want to get your feedback as well. So if you believed in viewer land that one of these gentlemen had the more compelling answer, let us know in the comments section as we welcome that kind of feedback. But now we turn it over to the judge, E. Casey Liden, Your Honor, how do you rule in the knockout round? Well, I get a bit nauseous every time we start mentioning,

the idea of bringing back tough. So I just gotta say that so I'm a little queasy right now. Oh man. All right, I made a decision. You're a winner. Boom. I need to start getting paid for this guys. Well, you got a title fight next week, so get ready for that.

Wow. Why did you go with, why did you go with boom there, E. Casey? I thought this was a, I actually thought AK was going to take this one. As someone that worked on, has worked many press weeks for packing. out and work Connor Floyd Mayweather.

The idea of that happening again is just I want to punch myself in the eyeballs and the ears and everything

so yeah and then when we start talking about tough when I hate the idea of tough

but Brian suggested they're going to do it all over Zoom I love that idea I just love

the idea of Habib on an iPad outside the cage yelling at fighters because what does Zoom Ron with? Oh, there you go. All said.

Branding. The man is a winner. A.K. That's another level. Yeah, you suck. I respect it. I respect it. I do.

I would like to have a rematch. And by rematch, I mean, I would like to actually fight you in the cage. I'm a little bit fatter than I look. So if you could come up to 155, that would be really good. And I think the outman. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Definitely no way. You have to indulge, if anything, to make that fight. So, and I would have to cut a little bit. So I think people would like to see that, me actually fight Brian physically. And I think a much closer contest because he's a very smart man. He outsmarted me today. But I think physically, maybe another story. Wow, I thought you're going to check your neck, protect your neck, man. I'm scared of that.

Well, yeah. Great thin. Well, Brian, with the victory comes to spoils. No, there is no money like you had requested. And there you go. You get 30 seconds to talk about whatever it is you like to talk about good, bad, and different in the sport of MMA or plug yourself, whatever you want to do? The floor is yours, my friend.

Yeah, no, one thing I think we kind of brought it up a little bit earlier was the PFL situation. I kind of have interest in that. You know, I've seen Lance Palmer mention a couple of things recently about, you know, being frustrated with how they're handling things. I know Chris Wade is a guy I train with at Long Island MMA. I think they might have released him and free agents are all over the place. and I think there's going to be a lot of moving pieces. So I'm interested to see where some of those top

PFL fighters end up. Maybe we see the UFC sign a couple, maybe Bellator, but I think that's definitely an interesting topic right now. I've muted myself a second. I would agree with you. And one name that I'm interested to see where she lands on this whole thing is Kayla Harrison because she could be the difference maker either way, depending on where she's at,

if she's trying to get released and so forth and so on. But that's something to definitely keep an eye on the early stages. As you can go on Twitter, look at Lance Palmer's tweet and waiting to see if there's other dominoes that will fall in that aspect. But in the end, that's going to do it for another episode of Between the Links. God, I love hosting the show. So thank you so much for check it out on YouTube or in the podcasting network, a.k. excellent rap, my friend.

So thank you for your creativity. Much appreciated it. But join us next week as we do it all over again with the new matchup right here on Between the Links. Brian Kelleher gets his first title shot. against Phoenix Carnivali should be a hell of a matchup for A.K. Lee, Brian Boom, Callagher, Casey Lad, another production in the iconic voice of Esther Lynn. Have a heck of a week, fight fans. Good night, everybody. This has been Between the Links with your host, Mike Heck, brought to you by MMA Fighting,

a production of Vox Media.