MMA Fighting - Between the Links: Episode 3 | Jorge Masvidal vs. UFC Continues, What's Next For Cynthia Calvillo & More

Episode Date: June 16, 2020

This week on Between the Links, host Mike Heck moderates the matchup between MMA Fighting's Jose Youngs and TSN's Aaron Bronsteter as they discuss what is next for Cynthia Calvillo and Jessica Eye following the UFC on ESPN 10 main event this past weekend, Jorge Masvidal's public battle with the UFC, as well as past and present fighters, continuing on, a look ahead to this weekend's UFC on ESPN 11 card headlined by Curtis Blaydes vs. Alexander Volkov, and more. Follow Mike Heck: @MikeHeck_JR Follow José Youngs: @JoseYoungs Subscribe: http://goo.gl/dYpsgH Check out our full video catalog: http://goo.gl/u8VvLi Visit our playlists: http://goo.gl/eFhsvM Like MMAF on Facebook: http://goo.gl/uhdg7Z Follow on Twitter: http://goo.gl/nOATUI Read More: http://www.mmafighting.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. All right, welcome to a brand new edition of Between the Links on MMayfighting.com. I am Mike Heck, the host and moderator of the program. And we have quite the matchup for you this week and lots to discuss. It was actually difficult to narrow these all down. But before we get into this thing, let us introduce the combatants. First, the Challenger, you guys all know this man from TSN in Canada. And I can confidently say that throughout all the different iterations of the show over the years,

this man delivered one of the greatest performances. in the history of Between the Links and maybe had the best answer to a question in the history of MMA podcasting. Ladies and gentlemen, Mr. Aaron Bronsider joins us. Aaron, welcome back, I guess, to Between the Links. How are you? I'm good. I saw Jose shaking his head when you said that I had the greatest answer in the history of M&A podcasts. And I mean, we just got to silence the doubters. I guess that's where we go from here. That's what we're here to do, Aaron. And returning for his second title defense, undefeated in his Between the Link's career, the man with the best mustache in MMA media.

It's become more of a full-grown beard. I guess that's what multiple trips to Vegas and Jacksonville will do for you. But he's back from Vegas once again from MMAFighting.com. Mr. Jose Young's. How are you, Chan? Let's get this out of the way. The answer to the question of what the greatest, with the greatest answer was who has the best hair in MMA,

not just MMA media, just MMA. And someone was like, oh, it's Edmund Shabazzian. And Aaron was like, no, it's Jose Young's. And Mike was like, that is the greatest answer of all time. And I was like, yeah, that would make a lot of sense. So for those of you wondering in the comment section what the answer was, that was the answer. The greatest answer was Jose Young's has the best hair in MMA. Let's do it.

Actually, I have the best hair in MMA. Right. So let's just get that out of the way. You and Mark Remondi. I did at one point in time. You and Mark Remondi are tied for the best hair in the movie. Jimmy Smith is in the Knicks, too. Yeah.

The battle commences. So real quick, just for those who are new to the game, we didn't have video last week. It was chaos. It was a monstrosity, if you will. Oh, every time you say, technological proportions. But here's how the game works. So these gentlemen are going to give their takes on four different topics.

And based on how they present their arguments, doesn't matter if I agree with them or not, they're going to be awarded one point for each round. I, of course, can ask follow-up questions. It is my show. I have the right to do so. And after four questions, we may have a winner. We may not have a winner.

If we do not, we're going to go to the knockout round. One question decides at all. Neither of these gentlemen. gentlemen know what that question is. And then Casey and the truck mouth, the second best mustache in MA media will render the final decision. Don't forget it. If Jose wins, he continues this impressive title defense streak.

And if Aaron wins, I don't know what the hell is going to happen. We might have an interim strap. Might have to vacate a title here. I don't know. But the tension, you can cut it with the knife. So let's get into episode three between the links. Let's get into, I guess, the big story right now. In Octagon action, I guess.

UFC on ESPN 10, went down on Saturday, night in Las Vegas. It was that classic, don't judge a book by its cover type of event. There's some great performances, but let's kick things off with the main event. We have Cynthia Calvio jumps up to 125. First time she's been there since her pro debut. It's her first main event, not just in the UFC, but of her entire professional career. And she delivers a great performance against Jessica I gets a unanimous decision. I gave Cynthia all five rounds. I knew there's going to be a 4847 mixed in there somewhere because judges be judging. But we get to the point in the sport, especially right after that fight, where we start playing fantasy matchmaker.

And when it comes to Cynthia Calvio, there's a lot of options for her right now. I've seen them all. We had callouts, big fights coming up in the division, and there's people who say, you know what, she just beat the number one contender. Let's jump her right into a title fight. Let's have her jump the line. Some say, let's just give her the winner of Schifchenko versus Calderwood when and if that fight gets officially booked.

So, Jose, we'll start with you. If it's up to you, where does Cynthia Calvio go from Saturday night's big win and why? Well, I don't think there's a scenario where she skips the queue. The UFC's been pretty adamant that, well, not even adamant. Like, they've booked Joe An Coldo-in a lot of number one contender fights, and she's always kind of come up short, whether to be someone like Cynthia or like Marina Marrose back in her strawweight days or even against Count of Chican in Chicago. So I don't think there's a scenario whatsoever where they don't give Joanne Caldow with the next shot. I think that's not official, but I can't imagine that Cynthia skips that cue.

Cynthia's been pretty adamant that she wants to stay active. There's that big, again, there's also that big flyweight fight coming up this week with Roxanne Montefari and Lauren Murphy. I think the winner of that should be next in line. I know there's a little bit of, but again, it's hard to fantasy matchmake when these fights haven't happened yet because like I always say, it could be a three-round war and they both get six months suspensions. And then Cynthia has to skip the queue because she's just next in line. Or Joanne Caldwood gets her and they have to fill in scenario. I don't have a problem whatsoever. if Cynthia wants to wait it out for a title fight,

but she has been adamant that she wants to stay active. She also brought up the fact that she likes representing East San Jose, and she wants to really show the kids what hard work does. So she doesn't strike me as someone that wants to sit out. Count Chukin called her out on Twitter. I think her exact phrase was, gimme, gimme. She fought for the title already lost, got dominated by Valentina of Cheschenko,

and they came back and had the best performance of her life against Valencia and his sister, Anthonyiochchenko. on the first fight night card in Las Vegas. So if someone of that caliber calls you out, neither of them have fights booked at the moment. They both want to be active. I like that fight. I get what people are going to say to wait.

But also, when you say, should she wait for the winner of Valentina Joanne Colderwood, if Valentino loses, they're going to give her the rematch against Joanne Cullerwood. There's no question about it. Cynthia does have a win over Jojo, which will help her down the line. But again, the biggest thing that helped her was beating the normal one contender. But no, I don't think she skips the cue.

I like the Kalanchu Kagan fight. But I also think Roxanne Mottifari and Lauren Murphy, the winner of that should be the next, should get the who I'm assuming Valentin will be joined Kolo. But again, nothing's for certain. They should be next in line over Cynthia, especially because Cynthia wants to stay hyperactive. Aaron, what say you? I just don't see how they would be ahead of Cynthia Calvio. Cynthia just beat the number one person. The way that these rankings always seem to work is if you beat the number one person, now you're the number one person.

It happened with Gilbert Burns. And that's how they're justifying this title shot and having him jump Masvedal in terms of the supposed cue for the title shot. So with this particular matchup this weekend, you got Modifery and you got Lauren Murphy, I think it just makes sense to have Cynthia Calvio fight the winner of that fight. In fact, I spoke to her manager today. And I said, do you guys feel like she's next in line for the title? Like, should she wait? And they said, no, she doesn't want to wait. She wants to face somebody.

and they thought that the logical next step would be to face the winner of this weekend because they know that Caitlin Chukagian didn't have a lot of success against Valentina Shevchenko. The UFC probably doesn't want to put her back into a position where people would consider her for a title fight because we kind of know what's going to happen if that comes to be. Cynthia Calvio did a great thing by moving to flyweight. She was always on the cusp of the top five at the straw weight and kept missing weight. All these circumstances kept happening. Now she's in a perfect position.

She jumps in in a main event. The first non-title, at least scheduled for flyweight, it ended up. of being a catchweight main event in UFC history, a pretty big platform, and ends up getting the job done and doing so without any questions. I don't think anybody could argue that I won that fight. And by I, I don't mean me, I mean Jessica I. So I think that what's next in line for her would be the winner of this weekend's fight if she does want to stay busy. But I could totally see a scenario where she just sits out, waits to see what happens with Calderwood and Shevchenko and get that next shot if she doesn't want to sit out because I think she's earned that

spot. But see, here's the problem with that. You're making sense, Aaron, and that's not allowed when you're talking about the UFC rankings. Who's fighting for the Bantamweight title in the men? Someone that's 0 and 1 in the UFC Bantamweight Division. So your answer is logical, but that's where the fault lies when you're talking about UFC title fights. So you think Macy Barber should be next in line then? Yeah, duh. Well, one of the things that, one thing that Cynthia did well, Obviously, she's found a home. She's at AKA. She's close to her parents.

So that helps. I know that was a big problem with her trying to figure out where she was going to train, who was going to coach her, who is going to be part of her team. And she seems to have gotten that figured out. But I thought she delivered it a huge way in that press conference. And I think she took steps to becoming a star. Obviously, she's not there yet. And maybe it was just the timing of that conversation because I interviewed Cynthia Calveo

like two or three days after that fight was announced and asked her about the negativity surrounding the fight. she gave her take on it and basically said like, what am I supposed to do? Say no. Like, if you don't like it, don't watch it. Who cares? So people sort of knocked her personality. They say she's boring. They don't like her personality for some reason. I don't subscribe to that theory at all. But Aaron, back to you. Can Cynthia Calvio be a star? And if so, what does she need to do to improve her stock, I guess, in that position? She needs to be Valentina Shevchenko. Nobody's been able to establish star power in this division outside. I'd maybe argue Macy Barber.

I think Macy had the opportunity where she kept saying, she kept calling her shot. She kept saying, I want to be the youngest UFC champion of all time. And that's something you can get behind. You can see how she's becoming successful, how she's dominating her opponents. She has unfortunately a misstep against Roxanne, Modafarian, and now that star power is kind of diminished. And then you look at Paige Van Zand, who is kind of bouncing between strawweight and flyweight. She's not really sure where she wants to be. And she's not really sure what promotion she wants to be in either.

So there isn't a whole lot of star power to go around in flyweight. Nobody's been able to establish themselves because nobody's come close to beating Valiweight. Valentina Shevchenko. And I don't think that anybody feels that there's anybody who's close to having a shot of beating Valentina Shefchenko. So to become a star,

you need to beat the star and in this division there's only one. Jose, what do you think? Before I let you answer, I do want to throw this out. I put on Twitter, I was like, if you guys

have a question that you guys want these guys to banter on, throw it out there. And our own Jed Michoud tweeted me and said, how many flyway contenders can Valentina Shifchenko beat

if you lined them up one after the other? So I thought that was a pretty funny question. But Jose, what do you think? Cynthia Cavillo, can she be a star? What does she need to do to get there? I mean, anyone can be a star.

It's just a matter of you have to win impressively and you have to be vocal or have something that people will gravitate towards. Like, look at Jorge Mazu. Before he fought Darren, until Horri Mazvold was fighting a lot of veterans from the ultimate fighter, takes a year off and then comes and just puts on the run of his career and does so without holding back or censoring

or being someone he's not. and fans love that. You need fighters like that. Sintere Calvio, like you said, let it out, let it all out after her fight. I think that's important, but she also needs to call fighters out. She can't go up there and say, I'll fight whoever, just give me the top contenders. It does work. We've seen fighters like Gilbert Burns and Donald Soroni get a cult following because of that.

Like, I was in Florida, Jacksonville and Gilbert Burns volunteered to fight Uriah Hall at middleweight to save that fight because he was cornering, he was there cornering Vicente Lucke. So fighters like that who will fight anyone anytime anytime. anywhere, we'll get a big following. But if you win the biggest fight of your career and now you're 1 and 0 in your new division against the former number one contender and all eyes are on you, you better use your platform to call out a big name opponent or say something other than I'll just fight all the contenders. I don't care. I think what Aaron said is pretty on point with Macy Barber when he said she was vocal about she wanted to be the youngest champion ever. And that is something like she, how many interviews did she hold up her countdown on with her

phone. Like that is stuff like that is important. Winning is the most important because at the end of the day even John, like people didn't like watching John Fitch fight, but after a while you can't deny the man of title fight after you string together a crazy amount of wins. Winning is most important, but getting fans

attention is just as important if not a close second because at the end of your prize fighters. Ever been Ascran might be one and two in the UFC, but we're still talking about him. So Cynthia Calvillo needs to be vocal. She needs to have something that people will gravitate towards.

And I agree with you, I agree with Aaron, that there are no stars currently not named Valentin of Shipschenko. But it doesn't mean there can't be. Macy Barber is up there. I think, Aaron, I don't know about you. I don't know if you looked at your numbers,

but what was it, U.S. 246, the Connor McGregor card. The fighter that did the best numbers for us and made fighting outside of the main event, Soroni and McGregor, was Roxanne Montefari. A, that might be because she was fighting Macy Barber and it might have been like some kickback from,

but she was also, she has that following with the anime and the weaves and the nerds and that culture. So I think she could be a star if she keeps winning and not changing. I think Miami-McCann could be a big deal. That episode of the A side she was on, she had that story about beating up a sex trafficker who tried to abduct someone at Subway. I saw more non-MMA media outlets write about that than I've seen about media outlets in general writing about Molly McCann outside of like the UK base scene. So I think she could be a star if she doesn't change a lot of fans and like Reddit specifically was like, I don't even watch fighting, but I'm a Miam McCann fan for life after that story.

So the potential stars exist. They just have to, they have to win and they have to, again, do something like Macy Barber and have something people can latch on to and really connect with and want to tune in. And there's not a less true statement than the one you just made that anybody can be a star in MMA. I mean, like, how many stars out there in MMA? There are barely any fighters that ever get any sort of crossover success in the sport. Like, you're talking about, like, 0.1% of the population here. Like, there are the haves and the have-nots. You can have the haves on two hands in terms of people that have star power in this sport.

So to say that, oh, yeah, Cynthia Calvillo can become a star. She just need to call out somebody with intriguing the division. There's nobody to call out with intriguing the division. Like, short of calling out Shevchenko and say, listen, I'm going to beat Shevchenko. I'm going to be the one that does it. And, you know, she's new to the division. Maybe she doesn't even feel comfortable doing that. But to say that anybody can become a star, like, there's just not, there's no less true thing.

You were at the press conference. Who, what fighters are up to say next to Kobe Bryant in New York? Francis Nguyenu. Cody Garbrandt and Cynthia Calvillo. So they tried. They stuck her next to Cody, Kobe Bryant, but she ended up failing a drug test, popping for marijuana, which is a whole other conversation. And that kind of pushed her down the track. So the U.C. tried.

They saw what she could do. But she's slowly climbing back up. there. A win over number contender is a big thing. So yes, Cynthia Kelville could be a star because the UFC already tried it in the past. I don't know. I don't know about that, though. I honestly, short of beating Shevchenko, I don't know how you become a star. Well, again, she could be, like, not saying she will, she could be a star. I'm not saying, like, it's there, the UFC tried if she beats Seth Valentia Fentio, which I don't think she will, she is made. But she could be a star, what's the question.

Fiery first round, we like to see. So we like to see. I think it all become stars. I think that would be awesome. Everyone, like, there should be more stars. Like, Israel has a signer should be an icon right now, but he's just not there yet. Point's going to go to Jose, but man, was this was, that was a tough one. This is why these guys are going to be future BTL Hall of Famers. Oh, they just became a star. Look at that. See, you're becoming stars on the show.

Anyone can be a star. If that's anything you could take from this episode so far, you, you, you can all be stars. It's like Cynthia will be a star if she beats Valentina. Aaron can be a star if he beats me. They is young. Well said. But we got to talk about the other side of the coin, Jessica I. We talked about this on the post-fight show on Saturday night because I can't remember a fighter who was a number one ranked contender in their division that just gets as much heat as Jessica I gets.

I mean, she doesn't do herself a lot of favors, including missing weight for the second consecutive time on Friday. And we've come to learn that because of Cynthia Calvio's post-fight and Joanne Calderwood on Twitter as well, there may be more to this story. alleged tom foolery with the hoop and some text messages to Calvio's manager Daniel Rubinstein suggesting that I missed weight by a lot more than 0.25 pounds. But Aaron, we're going to start with you. I missed big pre-pandemic in December by five pounds in that fight for against our Ujo. And this fight came together quickly and she misses weight again. She was on the virtual media day saying, you know what, I'm going to make it. I'm going to make it. Don't worry about that. But I know we're in a strange time in the world. But after back-to-back weight misses, is it,

fair for people to suggest that her days at 25 or over, at least for the foreseeable future? No, I don't think so. I mean, I think really it has reinvented her entire career, the fact that they opened the flyweight division. She was, to me, the prototypical flyweight. She was right in between where you'd want to be between strawweight and bantam weight. To make her move back up, I think would be a real disservice to her. I think that we've seen her make weight at 125. We have these two kind of anomalies right now in a row, and that's really bad. But if anybody's going to really take it to heart, it's going to be someone who wears their heart on their sleeve like Jessica I. Now, you would have thought that going into this fight because she was

so disappointed and devastated about the last time. And she said that they've been tracking all kinds of things and trying to really make sure that this doesn't happen again. But here we are. So I don't think that you'd be doing her any favors by moving her back up to Bantamweight. And I don't think that that's really the best case scenario for her career. I think that if she goes back up to Bantamway, we're going to see what happened last time. She had a losing record of Bantamweight. She comes to flyweight. And up until this loss to Calvio, she hadn't lost to anybody outside of Shefchenko. She was, that's the reason she's number one in the division. She was beating everybody put in front of her.

You mentioned Aurouzo. A lot of people thought she was going to be the next up and comer in the division. She beat Chukagian. Like, she's beating the people that she needs to beat to stay at number one up until this past weekend. So I think that this should be her home. I know that she's had these missteps. But we've seen a lot of fighters have missteps in terms of making weight. Look at Henry Sohudo and how he bounced back in his career.

Now, Jessica Is late to her careers might not be the best example, but we've seen a lot of fighters come back. they have issues making weight, they do something, they figure it out, and I think that Jessica I will figure it out. Like you mentioned, she does get a lot of hate, and I think that it's weird. There's this dynamic where if you're really real, like, and you're a dude, people seem to gravitate towards you, but if you're like really real and you're a female, like Ronda Rousey was, even though she was popular for a time, if you lose, all of a sudden, everybody just turns on you. And I think that they have an unfair double standard. And I then think that Jessica I is kind of cool in the fact that she wears her heart on her sleeve. She's saying she wants to fight someone.

in an alley. Like these kind of things, for whatever reason, rub people the wrong way. But if it was like Mike Perry saying he wants to fight someone in an alley, he's like the coolest guy ever. So I don't know what the thing is with Jessica I that rubs people the wrong way. But I feel like it's just her realness and her wearing her heart on her sleep. Yeah, and she's a great interview, too, if you ever get the chance to talk to her for those aspiring journalists out there, she's a great person to talk to because she does wear her heart on her sleeve and she's very open and honest. But Jose, what do you think? Because we've seen this before, and Aaron brought up a couple of examples, but in the UFC, fighters will miss weight, and then they bump them up for a

couple of fights. And if they do well, the UFC will give them another chance to come back down. Is it fair to suggest something like this for Jessica I, or is it too soon to start having those conversations? I think she needs, if she misses again, then you have to have to have that conversation. Because let's not forget, too, when she fought Valentina in Chicago, Aaron, I don't know, you were at, I assume you were at the wayans for that, the official wayans. It's 9 a.m. to 11 a.m. local time. She weighed in to like 10.58 in Chicago. So it's not like that cut is easy. I don't know her routine outside. So if they do want to give her one more chance, she proved she can make 125. She did it against Valentina. So it's not like she can't make a change. She's waiting. Like Aaron,

Aaron said, she's not losing the bums. She's losing to, she's losing to, she's beating Kalynchakian. She's beating all the people that you need to. She loses to Valentina. one of the greatest female players all time. And who would she lose to abandon weight? Like Sarah McMahon, what, Misha Tate, like, Betts Goha, like, say what you want about Betch fought for a title. So she's losing to people that fought for titles. So she's not losing to 10 to 15.

She's losing to, like, one to three. I think when you say people are turning on her because when you lose, I remember when Yonah stared down with Wiley. Everyone was like, oh, you want, or like when, even with Rose, like a lot of people turned on Yowana when those happened. But then she puts on art, like, in my opinion, one of the greatest fights of all time against Wiley. I think that's a lock for fight of the year. I can't imagine anything being that.

It's one of if not the greatest title fights I've ever seen. So people turned on her. She lost, but the performance in losing got people to, like, love her again. So yes, Jessica is losing fans because she's losing, but it's not like she's putting on these epic fight of the year candidate. It's like her fight against Calvio, I don't remember a lot of. of the highlights. Like the fight happened, but there's not like those moments

where it's Wiley and Yuana like just kicking each other simultaneously and just biting down their mouth with going to war. The fight happened. There's not a lot to talk about after that in terms of X's and O's. So she goes out there and puts on that

performance and loses, fans will like her. She goes out there, everyone already hates her and she lays an egg. It's not going to do her any favors. Her calling out Sarge for missing weight and the missing weight two times in a row,

not going to do her any favor. So first and foremost, win, but even in loss, if you just put on a, we've seen it. You lose, you put on a great performance, fans are still going to love you. So if she had gone out there and just went balls to the wall against Cynthia and still lost, we would be having a different conversation, I think. It's kind of an anomaly, though.

I mean, to have a Yawanna versus Whaley type fight over five rounds, it's a very rare thing. It's true, especially in the women's. I'm going to ask you, what's the best women's flyweight fight of all time? A women's flyweight fight. Yeah, the borrower isn't really high here is what I'm saying. You can't really think of anything off the top of your head. And that's not a disrespect to the women's flyweight.

There have been a lot of good fights in the division, but nothing that really stands out. If you ask what the best women's fight of all time is, like, Jean versus Joanna is like the consensus best answer. Sure, sure. That's even arguable. And I think that is why Yowana has gained a lot of respectability back. So to say that Jessica, all she needs to do is how to fight like that, it's like, well, it's easier to have than done. Well, I would say not. It doesn't have to be a fight of the decade fight, but a fight that at least she's competitive in. That's semi exciting. I know that's like easier said than Dungeons. Oh, just go have a good fight because I'm not a professional fighter. I can't just say that to a human being. But don't talk a big game, miss weight, and then go out there maybe not have the greatest performance. And then we shouldn't be surprised that fans. Like we've seen like people turn on fans like like there are more fans turn on fighters more than the. big show turns on opponents in the

WWE. Like it's just like it's like how like all of a sudden Conner's hated because he pulls out of USC 200 and all of a sudden everyone loves Connor because he fights in 8 to 202. Like it's it's this back and forth thing with fans. So like all for all I know, just guy makes weight and puts on a good performance next fight and people love her again.

So it's who knows. I'm not going to try to predict fight fans. Yeah. The actions. Thinking their behaviors is very difficult. Right. And it's easier to like the Angela Hill-Cloudy fight was good and people hate Angela because she's saying that she thinks she won. She did.

That's probably another conversation. I 100% agree. I think that's another conversation that I think Angela would like to have, especially in the year 2020, what's going on in the world right now. But my scenario can also be proven wrong too. Well, since this question had to do with like weight and stuff, and I want to go back to you, Jose,

because we talk about this, I don't know if we've really talked about it and addressed it, like during one of these shows or anything like that, but it's something we talk about it in Slack channels, talk about like before we hit record and stuff, But we're seeing some of these fights, and we saw three on Saturday where these matchups are booked, but it ends up being up a weight class. Like Brian Kelleherst had two of those fights. And no one's going to say, like, well, this fight shouldn't count in the Bannamweight rankings because they're fighting at featherweight.

Like, not that I've seen anyways. So with these cards being put together as quickly as they have, especially in the midst of a global pandemic, should the UFC just go that route for as many of these fights as they can, like outside of title fights? I think it's up to the fighters. If the fighters can make weight, their natural fighting weight and they don't want to fight. And I'm not going to force them to. If, say, Sugar-Shaw-Malley is like, I can easily make 135 in a week. I don't have to fight a 145. I think why force him?

Why force anyone to move up in weight if they can make weight healthy and comfortably? Like, the health scenario is the biggest thing. If you can't make your weight on like a two weeks notice, fight a weight class up, find an opponent in your weight class. up find an opponent in your weight class like the Cody Stamens and the Brian Keller's even was sugar strong at 145 was that another 145 yeah so it's like that was 35 so like perfect example like he had that short nose fight he can make it so I if it's not broke don't fix it if you can't make weight on short notice and you can find opponent in your weight class why why make a sweeping change across the board if people can make weight and healthy and comfortably Aaron you have

spoken with Dana White many times, and regardless of time, short notice, et cetera, he said it many times, nothing irritates him more than a fighter stepping on the scale and missing weight. Should he be a little more lenient here? Like, would he ever soften up on the stance, especially now considering every negative story that comes out to Dana from the media at these scrums about his big name fighters or towards the company in general, his answer is always goes back to, listen, we're in a pandemic right now. Yeah, but you mentioned that.

And all the previous events, nobody had any issues making weight, right? So I think that some exceptions need to be made. Like, if you look at the Tyson-NAM fight, his opponent took the fight on, like, very, very short notice and then missed weight. So I think that, and then you look at the Marab Dvalesvili fight with Gustavo-Lopez, and that was made into a 140 fight. I think that when you're talking about really short-notice opponents, I think there should be a little bit of wiggle room there. I'm thinking like a five-pound type thing, an allowance, like in the Marab fight. But most of the time, it seems like the athletes are making weight even during a pandemic if you look at the previous cards. And I think that when there's a ranking involved, like with I and Calvio, you got to have it at that weight class because otherwise I feel like it doesn't really have any bearing on the ranking because it's not really the exact same fight if you're doing it at like 130 versus 125.

So I think that the fighters have proven. I mean, even that first fight back, I was so shocked. I was talking to people all week. I go, we're going to have four or five people miss weight for this card because we're in a pandemic. All the conditions are so different. We don't know how these guys are going to be able to cut the weight. It's going to be so different. And fighters are such creatures of habit.

Only one fighter missed weight for that first card. And I was shocked. And it just goes to show how professional all these athletes are and how seriously they take it. Now, there's going to be issues where people miss weight, especially in the female divisions, because they've got to deal with a menstrual cycle. And that can make their weight fluctuate a lot. And it's also a lot harder for them to cut weight. So I can see how a fighter like, you know, a Jessica I or anybody in the female divisions can have just one little hiccup.

And they're going to miss weight. But it seems like for the most part, the fighters who have competed in these recent events haven't been missing weight and they've been doing a great job. That's a great point right there. And that's why you're getting the point, Aaron Bronsetter, as we head to our third question of regulation. Let's talk about Jorge Mazadol because he continued to open up on social media over the weekend about his status with the UFC and his contract. And Dana White made some headlines comparing Jorge Mazdal to the Diaz brothers and not being surprised that Gilbert Burns got the title fight against Usman and Mazadol didn't. But this has become quite the story. You know, now we're getting fighters like Gray Maynard and Sam Stout involved,

talking about contracts and matchmakers and Joe Sylve and stuff. But to really focus on this topic, over the weekend, Mazadol said some things that really stuck out. One, he feels bad for Dana White and acknowledged that it's not really Dana's fault what's going on, essentially because Dana's the promoter. He's not the one putting these contracts together. And another thing he said that caught people's attention, he called out some, I believe the term was white knights of the commentary. booth seems like Daniel Cormier in particular was spotlit for saying, you know, Jorge, just fight and other things to that sense.

But, Jose, let's start with you. Mazadol doesn't seem to be backing down at all. What are your thoughts on this latest chapter of the saga this past weekend? I'm curious, and I know you guys all have heard the stories. I'm curious if it's Jorge actually tweeting. I don't know how involved Jorge is with his own social medias. similar like you hear a lot of like oh like you hear a lot of fighters like I remember was it

George someone asked about like a tweet he put out George St. Pierre and he's like I don't even I don't know I don't even use my Twitter that's my people so yeah it's it's it's not gonna go away we said this last week fighter pay is going to be a conversation forever like they're not making enough I think

that's a no brainer Jorge feels like he has put in the time effort and blood sweat and tears over X amount of years to make those seven figures. Him calling out Daniel Cormier, which a lot of people, one, he didn't name him by nay, but you kind of put two and two together, and it's Daniel Cormier. Didn't surprise me at all.

I saw a lot of fans taking Jorge's side, surprisingly. Well, surprising in the sense that I think a lot of fans would be like, why are you complaining? I would love to make $100,000 to fight. A lot of fans took Jorge's side and were saying, well, yeah, it's easy for Daniel to say that, he's making a million dollars heading into retirement. And he has this cushy commentator job after he fights for a championship. So like of course he's going to say, hey, fight. He also has less fights than Jorge Moswell. He's probably, Jorge Moswell has probably fought for a lot. Like, Jorge Mazzal's lowest pay. I don't know this for a fact in his early

career, is probably a lot lower than the lowest amount Daniel Kormier ever made for his early MMA careers just because Daniel Korme kind of debuted in a big way in that strike force. and then he kind of won the Grand Prix and early into his strike force career. Horri Mosul had like the bow dog fights and the early Bellator cards where he probably made a lot less than Daniel Corme made for his lowest payday. So I didn't surprise me and called Daniel Corme out. It surprised me how many fans took Hori Mazza del side because we've seen what, like people will complain that they're making 40 and 40 and 40. And people are like, I make $40,000 in a year. I'd love to have your job.

And they're like, yeah, but like I fight once a year and like 50% of that is taken away from you. So I'm making like $20,000 a year, guy. Fans don't want to hear that. They want to just, they want to say shut up and fight. So no, wasn't surprised Mazurzv is all called out, Kormier, was very surprised fans took his side. And this is not going to go away until Jorge Madsville gets what he wants. And I'm comfortable in saying that he's probably not going to get to what he wants.

And I think he'll fight eventually just because he has to fight and make some money. Aaron, Cozay made a great point because we don't know who runs Jorge's social media account. But Mazel doesn't strike me as a guy who is going to allow something to be tweeted by him or his manager without knowledge of it. So at least he knows what was being tweeted out here. But based on what he tweeted out over the weekend and all the things that he said, fans support, all that stuff, what is your take on it? Well, Abe Kawah has said in interviews that he does run Jorge's Twitter, but that nothing that he tweets is not with the direction of Jorge. Like, they go over it because Jorge doesn't like using social media, but they'll craft the tweets together and, work on it and get that out there. Now, the issue that I think the UFC has on their hands right now

is something we haven't, we're not used to seeing this. This is something we've become accustomed to, is seeing the haves and the have-nots, as I mentioned earlier in the show, are very far apart. But this is an interesting situation where I feel like the have-nots are the ones that hold back the people that have the star power from making the money because they're so willing to fight. They're so willing to go out and make $40,000. And the thing about it is, if you look at the boxing pay structure, which is why all the people at the top of the sport have so many issues with the pay that they get, the people that make money on the undercards for the UFC are making a lot more than the low-end boxers are.

So much more. Yeah, they're making so much more. So a lot of the low-end fighters are actually really happy. And how many of the fighters in the UFC? What percentage of them are the low-end fighters are the ones that make the least amount of money, the ones that make 20 and 20? It's like 98% of them. It's a gigantic chunk of them are the ones that are making the lower amounts of money.

and they're happy making that amount of money. Then once you get to the top and you see what the Deonté Wilders of the world are making and all, you know, Tyson Fury, then you start getting mad because you're like, well, I'm the draw here. I'm the one bringing in the money. But the thing about it is the UFC machine can keep rolling on without them. If you're Jorge Mazvedol and you're the UFC, they look at Jorge and they say, well, right now, we just had an event with Calvio and I as the headliner.

And we made the same amount of money that we would make from that card if we had a card on ESPN headline by Jorge Mazvidal, who would make probably the entire salary. of that card combined to fight. And then you look at the pay-per-view structure, and according to different reports, they get a flat rate now for the pay-per-view. So that makes them a lot less incentivized to have big star power on their pay-per-views. And with no gate, now you're talking even less incentive. And if you have Jorge sitting on a shelf, you're lowering his star power, you're lowering his earning power and earning potential and diminishing that. And you don't, you don't think they don't know that? So they've established Burns as the number one contender

in the rankings. He's now number one. They can perfectly justify the fact that he's got the next shot, even though they had been talking about Usman taking on Mazvedol all this time. People forget because they see great performance by Burns. They see him beat Woodley all five rounds. And now it's like, okay, this is the guy. Because we all forget. We have short-term memories in MMA. You know, people remember, Hey, Jorge knocked out Ben Ascran in five seconds and he beat, he beat Diaz. But then you look at the rankings, like, oh, where are these guys that he's beaten in the welterweight rankings? Well, none of them are ranked right now. Ascren's retired. Till's moved up to middleweight. Diaz, I don't

believe is ranked as a welterweight if he is. That's my mistake. But he's beaten all these unranked guys. And people look at that and they do the math. Now, the thing about Jorge is I think he's a very unique personality. I think that he can sell. I think the fight with him and Connor is one of the biggest that you could make right now. But there's just not a whole lot of incentive on the UFC's end to make any of these fights because they're going to be getting their flat rates. They're going to be getting their fees. And until one of their partners calls them and says, hey, we want to see Jorge Mazvedal in there. They just don't have a whole lot of pressure to put Jorge Mazzvedo in the main event and to pay him that kind of money. I think Jorge Mazzabal has

earned every cent of that money. The year he had last year was by far, I think the best year, him and Israel were the best years that any fighter had in the UFC last year. But when you're trying to overnegotiate and you're trying to overplay your hand, the UFC will always call the bluff. And they never end up coming out. They never end up losing. You know, Dana White is a, he plays blackjack. He knows what he's doing at the card table. And he looks at this table in the same way. And if you look at what Dana White said earlier, I guess it was last week when he was trying to figure out why Gustavo Lopez was on the card. Nobody told him that he was under contract with Combache. He was mad that people didn't fill him in. Like, even though Jorge says he feels bad for Dana, Dana is very connected

with every single thing that's happening at all times. He wants to be in the loop on even the most minute of details because he knows that it falls on him inevitably. And I think that that's the smart way to do it. So, you know, don't think that he doesn't know what's going on behind closed doors. right now. And, you know, I'm glad that Jorge is trying to say that he feels bad for him. But you have to imagine that Dana has a role in this as well. Yeah, let's also not forget, because, like, we can lump Henry Suhudo in there, too. He was talking about his fighter pay and everything. At least Henry and John Jones had titles. Horrie might as well, it's not like he's holding up a division by not.

He's holding up the BMF division. Right. The one that he says it's one of one and he doesn't have to defend. So it's not like he can be like, well, fine, then your champion doesn't fight. He just happens to be very hot right now. He wants to maximize his earnings right now. I think John Jones's brothers being in the NFL and having this big union collective bargaining and like the revenue split being so such a discrepancy between them and the UFC also does a lot for jumping. Well, look at my brothers. They have an offseason. They don't get kicked in the head and they get way more money than me. Also, let's not forget, Jorge and John are managed by the Kawah. So it doesn't, again, doesn't surprise me that these two are the ones that are asking for

more money specifically right now. But I think Aaron makes a good point. Like, why have these big names fight? They're going to make the same money. It's why Brock Lesnar didn't come back because he wanted a bigger lump pay and the UFC wasn't willing to say that. So if they're not willing to pay Brock Lesnar, one of the five biggest pay-per-view draws in the history of the UFC,

they're not going to pay John Jones and Horace Mazzredal. Quote, Deonté Wilder money. Yeah, and you know that the heavyweight division can move on anyways. Like they can trade an interim belt tomorrow. You know? The machine rolls on. And I think a term that Aaron said kind of sticks out when it comes to this UFC 251 situation is a lot of people saying that Mazadol, while they respect

what he's doing, he overplayed his hand a little too much here. And I want to go back to you, Aaron, because last week on the show, we sort of ranked who would be the most likely and least likely to fight first between Mazadol, John Jones, and Connor McGregor, and both Jose and Damon Martin said Mazadol would be most likely to get back in there and fight. So A, do you agree with that? and B, it's been reported that the UFC did go to Mazadol on the 11th hour to try to salvage that fight with Usman at UFC 251, even offered him what he made to fight Nate Diaz at UFC 244 and other things, and he still said no. So what can the UFC do?

What can Mazadol and his team do at this point to salvage this relationship outside of just, you know what, here's a new deal once again and here's some more money. I think John Jones is probably going to be the next one to fight out of that group because they'll call him and they'll say, And like you have to fight either Reyes or Bojavich or we're going to move on with the division. And he has a new contract, apparently, that will pay him a good amount of money to take those fights. I think those are less, I don't want to say less challenging, but like there are less consequences in fighting those guys than there isn't potentially fighting Francis and Geno and getting your head knocked off. I mean, we know what you're doing when you're getting into Francis and Gano.

And John Jones has said to me, he said this in a scrum, I'm not going to move up to heavyweight unless I'm compensated because I've got kids. I don't want to suffer like a debilitating injury and put myself at risk if I don't have to. He doesn't mind fighting guys like Jan Bojovic. I think that's probably what his desire would be. It would be to fight Jan, get the money that he has on his contract. I think he thinks it's probably an easy fight. And then you can move forward. And then there's also the Reyes fight, which I think has some intrigue to it.

I think most people believe that Reyes won that last fight. So if I'm John Jones and they offer me Bojofovich or Reyes, He's probably going to take the Boahovic fight and fight next. So that would be my take on it. I just don't see a really great opponent where you can maximize Jorge Masvedal's earning potential. Like, I think you need to pair him up with a lot of thought as to who he's going to face if you want this guy to make you the most amount of money. That's why the Diaz fight caught lightning in a bottle.

It was the perfect timing. Jorge was hot. Diaz was hot. You make that fight. In terms of who Masvidal fights next, I mean, throw an aim at me outside of Connor. I don't really see a way that you can market him properly. Jose, we've seen this before. We're going to see it again here in MMA and in the UFC.

So kind of going back to last week, is Mazadol still first on that list to come back, in your opinion? And if so, how does this happen? I think so. I think he's still the first one to come back. But I'm not saying he comes back like next month. I think Connor won't fight again so fans are allowed in attendance. I think John has shown that he's a little more focused on things happening in the world right now. I mean, we talked about it last week.

like we went from hating John Jones. Like the world went from hating John Jones. All of a sudden, John Jones being so outspoken about the protests and the Blacklight and that matter movement on social media and in person that he's kind of done a 180 in the eyes of a lot of fans. Even non-MMA fans have recognized that. So I think if I think Jorge will come back because, again,

he's not holding up a division. He I don't, he definitely doesn't have the career earnings of John and Connor to fall back on. So if he wants to And like Aaron said The longer he sits on the shelf The lower his earning power will be It's not like say John Jones vacates his title

And sits out for a year It's not like he can come back And be the returning champion The Conquering Hero And Connor is Connor He's his own brain He doesn't he can fight for a title or not And draw seven figures

So I think Jorge Holds the least chips to rely on So I still think Jorge will come back first But it's not like it's next month If he comes back, it'll be, it won't be until like the fourth quarter of 2020 at the earliest. Yeah, I mean, look at what we're seeing right now. We already got July 11th, that pay-per-views pretty much booked with everything. August, we get D.C. Stepe A3, or I'm sorry, Jose, Steep A versus DC3, champion gets first billing.

And then September, we're talking. It drives me crazy when people get tough challengers. That's right. D.C. is just so much easier to say. I wouldn't do that with any of the fight. It is still wrong. The name of the men of syllables. And then September we got,

and then September we're talking Habee versus Justin Gachie, which is looking very likely. So right now, October might be the earliest we see Connor, Mazadol, or Jones. You still have Valentina and Jojo that are out there. Man the New Des who doesn't want to fight. Wiley wants to fight.

She probably fight the winner. Like she wants to fight Rose, but Rose is booked. So yeah, there's a lot of other champions that are going to be back in action later, probably in the fall, especially after July, like a lot of champions could be freed up by the fourth quarter,

which is why I say Mazdaal might be the first ones because he might have to fight. Yeah, Valentina, I could see Valentina Jojo being like the co-main to DC, or I'm sorry, Steve Davis to get back again. I think Valencia is so nursing and injury right now. So, yeah, but again, who knows? There's a lot of fight nights out there because you know I want to see, you know, I'm the first person in line for or taking a Korean zombie. So that could also headline a fight night down the road.

You're jinxing it. You're jinxing it. I definitely jinxed it. And because you jinxed it, and I want to see that fight too, Aaron's going to get the point as we head into the final question of regulation. I'll keep that to the wire there. I know. It's huge. That one comment blew it because this has been so close.

Maybe we'll go to the knock around. Maybe we won't. But the UFC is back again this weekend at the apex. We've got UFC on ESPN 11. I think, yes. And then UFC Vegas 3 is the hashtag for those wondering. Main event, Curtis Blades versus Alexander Volkov. We got a great co-main event.

between Josh Emmett and Shane Burgos. There's definitely a lot more buzz for these next two fight cards than there was for last weekend's card. But as it stands right now, Jose, when you pull up this card and look at it, how do you grade Saturday night's event on paper? It's a good question.

Off of the top of my head, high Bs with the potential to be low A's, hopefully everyone makes weight in there. Everyone is healthy and so on and so forth. But there's a lot of important fights on this car like Tisha Torres, Breonna Van Buren, I love that fight.

Like Tisha Torres has only lost to Greg. Who she lost to like Yawanna, like Rose, Wiley, Marina, Marina Rodriguez, who's like, is unbelievable. And then Breonna Van Buren

won that Invicta one-night tournament. I think she's absolutely awesome. I think that's, I love that fight for women's or just fights, not women's fights, just fights, as Alex Savis likes to say. Always excited to watch Jim Miller fight.

Roosevelt Roberts has been on a tear. So I'm going to say high bees. with the potential to be in the low A's. It's one of the better fight nights we've had in a long time, especially in the Vegas. And dating back to Japsonville, I think this is one of the better fight nights we've had in a long time.

Which are great, Aaron? Like a C plus. I mean, again, it's a reasonsy bias. We're coming off of a... You can only go up from last weekend's card in terms of it on paper. So we're kind of feeding into a little bit of reasonsy bias here. I mean, we've seen main events that have been better quality

than this for a fight night. I mean, I think Volcker versus Blades is a great fight. I think there are a lot of great fights on this card. But I don't think there's anything that really is like appointment television. I think Burgos versus Emmett's going to be amazing. Like, that's going to be an awesome fight. Finally getting that Lyman Good Bilal Muhammad fight. But again, there's just a smaller pool to draw from right now for the UFC.

They don't have as much depth as they normally would for a card like this. And if you look at the bottom half of the card, compared to the bottom half of lots of other fight night cards before the pandemic, like if we're going to compare it to all fight night cards, it's probably like a C plus or like a B-minus. this is not a very high-level fight night on paper. I think that, again, great fights. And I would have said the same thing about last week's card. Like, you can't judge a book by its cover. Who knows how it's going to be?

But if we're judging it's strictly on paper, I think it's about a C-plus. And I don't want to disrespect the Raquel Pennington, Mary Renaud, but the fact that Lauren Murphy and Roxanne Mautafarian is the second prelim, and that fight's on the main card, it's a little puzzling. But is it surprising? No, it's like, I mean, it kind of goes back to we talk to. way too much of this card placement thing. The UFC's goal is to get you to watch from the first fight to the last fight.

So people are always like, why is this great fight the second fight on the card? Well, it's because they want you to watch the whole thing. If they put every great fight on the main card, you're going to watch the main card, and you're not going to have as much incentive to watch the early fight. But if you want to see a fight that has real implications in the women's flyway division, and that matters to you, and it's the second fight on the card, like you're going to say, oh, I got to be there. I got to be there at the beginning.

And they want to draw out as much of a rating as, possible. So that's why people make a lot of card placement. I think unless you're going to argue against the main event, like if you look at all the fights on this card, should that be the main event? For sure. Well, listen, Aaron, it's summertime in the East Coast here. So you're asking people to watch fight cards at 6 o'clock Eastern Time. And people probably want to see that fight. Maybe they're barbecue and maybe they're heading home. And they're like, oh, by the time I get home, I can watch that Murphy-Modafari fight, but now they can't. They have to go back and start from ground zero. Well, you guys just move to the last place. In fairness, it is going to be something.

or solstice on like basically the day after. So like the main card, it's still going to be light outside when the main card starts at 9 p.m. Eastern. So, you know, that argument doesn't hold water for just this one particular weekend.

I understand where you're coming from. But I do want to talk about Curtis Blades for a second because obviously this is a very important fight for him. But he's in such a weird spa right now because you can make the argument if you want to, that he deserves a title shot. And Francis Inganu clearly is at the top of that list for the winner of Steepay and D.

You got it right that time. But for Blades, it's kind of hard to matchmake for him because if Steepameyos wins, they do the rematch with Engano. Everybody wants to see that. But if Daniel Corme wins, we're going to have a vacant title. Can the UFC go back to Engano versus Blades in that well for the third time? That's a super tough sell. Aaron, when could we realistically see Curtis Blades fight for a title if he wins on Saturday?

Like, best case scenario. Well, now they're talking about SteepApe potentially retiring after that fight. So there might be a vacant title regardless. And if you're going to have a vacant title, the fight you have to make is Ngano versus Blades, the third one. Because Inganu has basically beaten everybody in the division, including Blades. And Blades has beaten everybody else in the division if he beats Volkov. So you kind of have to make that fight. Like, well, what's the other option?

Can you come up with one that makes any sense? Yes. I don't like, okay, go ahead. He's not fought Derek Lewis, who I think sits at four or five. Who, Blades? Yeah. You want him to fight Derek Lewis? No, if he beats Volkov.

If we're going to be a. vacant title on the line. If you guys have to do Inganu versus Blades. You're talking about vacant title, then yeah, it should be Blades and Ganu. But if, no, if Steve-Bade doesn't retire and they run it back. Then I would agree with you. Then you've got a prospective opponent. But I was talking about strictly if both of these guys were going to retire at the end of that event.

And you had a vacant title, you have to do Blades v. Nganu 3 or Nguanu versus Blades 3 because Nguyenu would be higher ranked, Jose. No disrespect to Francis. But yeah, you'd have to do the trilogy fight, even though both fights were fairly laop. sided in the favor of Francis and Gannu just because there's just no other options that you can have. No other options. What about John Jones? Put a title in there? Yeah, okay. Are you putting up the money, Mike? Are you getting a GoFundMe going or what? I got like $7 I could throw it towards that. I don't know about you guys. If somebody put up a GoFundMe for John Jones to move up to

heavyweight, I think it would do well. Like I think it would get some fractures. There we go. We're starting a movement. Get John Jones to heavyweight on GoFundMe. Two million dollar. is what we're looking for. So, I mean, is that sort of your, I mean, Jose, you sort of alluded to it, is that your take? Or do you think Curtis Blade is going to be waiting a little bit longer? I mean, obviously, it's very difficult to plan things out this soon before fights even happen. But let's just kind of go with what we've seen in the past. And, you know, worst case and best case scenarios here, pros and cons.

Do you, true or false, Curtis Blades fights for a heavyweight title before April of 2021. April 2021. Wow, that's really tough. I'm not even going to pretend that the UFC rankings matter because they just don't. The UFC will find some reason not to give. Like, if they came out and said, okay, like Curtis Blades, you're sitting at number three. Franz and Gaon, you're sitting at number two. And Steve Miochich and Daniel Kormeat have retired now.

And there's a vacant title. And Dana White came out and said, you know what we're doing? And Ghanu Overim 2 instead. I'd be like, yeah, duh, of course. Of course you're going to do that. And overreem's a way bigger star in the sport. And if we're counting on the rankings, yeah, Blades will 100% get that. But again, I'm not going to pretend that they even care about the rankings.

They can't like, like Aaron said, you want to make appointment viewing television. Overeem is a way bigger star. One of the biggest stars in the heavyweight division. Take that for what you want in the world. Francis almost decapitated them. He did. And Blaze, Blades, put him in a lot. The blades finish might have been almost as devastating as the one that they're not going to run that one back.

I think it was 100% more devastating. I'm saying they're not going to. I'm saying I wouldn't be surprised because the rankings don't matter. And everyone erases the last performances, recency bias. They're going to be like, yeah, why not? Like, Connor McGregor got submitted by Nate Diaz and second round. Let's run it back in the second time. I want to ask you something, Jose.

Go ahead. Outside of Stepe and D.C., who are the top three guys in the heavyweight division? In your opinion, no one of the rankings. outside of Steepand, D.C., Francis, Blades, Lewis, and probably, it's like Jadius, Rosenstriek, and Volkov are all probably in that, via for that third spot.

See, I think Volkov is probably number three. Like, Volkov was basically beating Derek Lewis until he wasn't. But I think you would have to rank Volkov ahead of, like, to me, the three are, you got Inganu, you got Blades, you got Volkov. And if you look at the odds, Blades is a four to one favorite over

Volkov. So Blades would basically be at least a 4-to-1 favorite, in my opinion, over anybody else in that division. So, like, those are just the two best guys outside of Steepane, D.C., and I don't think it's close. I agree. I just, I'm saying the UFC's down, based

off of what I know of how the UFC handles these fights, I don't think they give France. I don't think they make Blades, Francis. The blades was favored over Nagano last time. It was a two-to-one favorite. It was, like, 30 seconds. So I don't, if rankings matter, Blaz and Ghana to 100%, but the rankings don't matter.

So I don't think the UFC gives Blades the third shot after being knocked out in 30 seconds, in China. And that just shows how under the radar Alexander Volkov is flying heading in this fight too. It's almost like... I think he did a disservice that, like, yeah, he had that headline spot against JDS in Moscow, and it happened super early in the morning that, and he, of course, that fight fell out when he had to fight Greg Hardy in the co-main event. I think that did itself a disservice because now people like... I had to look up who his last fight was. I still like, was his last fight?

Derek Lewis? And then I had to like look it up. This fight reminds me a lot of Corey Anderson versus Jan Belhovitz in a lot of ways because I feel like like Blades has all the momentum right now, but you have a really tough guy in Volkov. And the same thing happened here. Corey Anderson was coming up the Johnny Walker win. Jan Belhovic was there.

And people just thought Corey was going to take him down and beat him up and get in there and fight John Jones. But Jan Blachovich had other plans. So, whew. Jose is going to get the point and mostly because I just want to see this final round because this has been so good.

Corruption of another hour. Let's also not forget, Rosenstreet and JDS had a big fight coming up. Rose Street goes out there and melts JDS in 30 seconds. I bet they try and convince Blades to take that fight, which is ridiculous. That would be a great fight. And then you got Gus up coming to heavyweight too.

Oh my God. I forgot about that. That's such a bizarre fight. I love chaos. I love it so much. And that's why we're going to this knocker around. So one question. for the whole kitten caboodle

and my favorite part of the show is taking the heat off of me. So this is for the prestigious BTL championship of the universe. Jose, you are the two-time defending champion. You have the option here. You have chosen to kick off the last two weeks

and allow your opponent to answer the question first. Would you like to exercise that option here? Or would you like to B-Rabbit this thing a la 8-mile and maybe take the microphone right out of Aaron's hands?

Well, first of all, in 8-mile, B-Rabit, didn't choose to go first. Papa Doc said, let this guy go first. So, of course, I'm going to say the champion defers. Okay. I'm just going to have to score a touchdown instead of can't feel.

Don't come at me with this eight-mile trivia and get it wrong. Jesus Christ. All right. Regardless, Aaron, before you win. That's hilarious. Here's the question. We took to Twitter for these, and there were some fascinating questions out there. We threw one out there.

But in the end, we're going to go in this direction. And the category is something that's almost impossible to do, which is why this is the final question. We've alluded to this pretty much every week on the show so far, and that is trying to get into the mind of Dana White. So the category is dot, dot, dot, except for Dana White. Aaron, here's the question. These events of the UFC Apex, we've seen some great fights, we've seen some incredible performances and finishes, and thus creating some pretty fun events. And one of the reasons that people believe has led to the success of these cards is the smaller cage in the apex. And as you know, everybody seems to be all in on the smaller cage and want to see more of it.

Dot, dot, dot, except for Dana White. He says it's an illusion. He doesn't love it as much as the rest of us. Why, Aaron? Why do you think that is? I can answer this question definitively. The reason why he doesn't like the smaller cage as a whole is because from a production standpoint, it doesn't look as good on TV.

If you have a big arena and a small cage, he thinks it doesn't look right. And then when you have a small arena in a big cage or a small venue in a big cage like the apex, he thinks that that looks bad too. So the reason why he wants to see a smaller cage at the apex is because it's a small venue. The reason why we see the smaller cage in smaller locales, like a pulsar or something along those lines, is because it's a smaller venue. And that's just what looks good on TV. That's the way Dana White thinks. That's why we're not going to have fight island fights on the beach. We're going to have five island fights inside a production facility. It's going to be a bigger production facility, which will lead to a bigger

cage. And I think that's probably what they're going to end up doing. But for Dana White, It's simply a matter of what looks better on television. And he has decided after watching umpteen fights over the years that this is the best course of action for how you want to present the fight. And he did raise a good point. He said that if you look at UFC 249, those were all great fights. They were in a big cage. Is it an illusion?

Probably not. There's been research done. Reid Kuhn of Fightnomics says that there's a 15 to 20 percent higher finishing rate in the small cage. I used to love the WEC. I'm a big proponent of the small cage. I think it leads to more finishes and more exciting finishes. However, I kind of agree coming from a television background with Dana White and the fact that if you have a small cage in a big venue or a big cage in a small venue, it just doesn't look as good on television.

And this is who they're trying to cater the product towards as a television audience. So while more people want to see the small cage, the reason why, except for Dana White, dot, dot, dot, dot is because he knows this business inside and out. He knows production. He doesn't usually get it wrong in terms of how things look on television and how to make things nice and put good window dressing on it. So that's why Dana White feels this way. Whether or not the right answer, I'm not going to give a comment on that because I think most people think that the smaller cage would be more exciting. And I think Dana White probably knows that in his heart, but he prioritizes television

over that particular thing. Jose, I know, like, I think we're all in agreement here that we're not expecting the UFC to take the smaller cage on the road with them everywhere they go. Like, I don't think we assume that at all. but he is no selling this completely. Why does he have to be the proverbial party pooper when math has deemed it otherwise? Because Dana White historically

loves going against what people want or don't want. Like as soon as someone says, we have to cancel these cards because of the pandemic. A pandemic is happening in the world. He's like, no, fights in Tachi Palace. And then, like, Disney's the one that pulls the plug. Why is Greg Hardy fighting in the co-main event? Take him out.

Dana's like, well, why is Greg Hardy fight on the same cause at Rachel Ostevic? That's ridiculous. Dana White, you know what? Co-main event it is. So, like, Dana White will do everything against the grain. So if the UFC, if the fans were like, not that this would happen, this is just a hypothetical thing. If the fans are like, we want the big cage. And Dana was like, you know what?

I kind of like the small cage. And I'm just like, yeah, that doesn't surprise me because Dana White is just going to go against the grain. I think he's using the big cage. I think another part of it is there's a lot more room for sponsorships on there, a lot more money you can get. I've spoken with UFCPR when I was at the Salt Lake card. And I was like, why don't you have the small cage for this? And they said, we always use the big cage if we're in an NBA arena, which was, again, Salt Lake City. But then it was in the, when they had it in Foxwoods for the Rothwell Overim card, they had the small cage because that's a smaller venue, like Aaron said.

It just looks better. They had it in the Cosmo for the paid sage card and the Frankie Mendez card. I think even St. Northcutt was kind of caught off guard by how small the card was when it. What was it? Cody Fister is who fought on that card. So I think what Aaron said is accurate. I would also add that you can fit more sponsorships on there, even though the fighters can't have sponsors on their own trunks. But of course, they can canvas the octagon with as many sponsors as they want. And B, Dainway just never wants to give people what they want. He wants to do his own thing. Someone says, hey, Dan, you should probably wear a mask.

Dan's like, nah, no mask for me. I'm just going to not wear a mask, even though the government's telling me I probably should. So no. Dana White doesn't want to give people what they want. He wants to march to the beat of his own drum. Not to, again, side note, he said he beats to the beat of his own drum when he was talking about module. Like that doesn't make any sense whatsoever, Dana White.

And more sponsorships. And of course, looks better. Like, Dana says it makes sense. It makes sense. That's true. By the way, you made the mistake by kicking this one, Jose. You just took my answer and just put like a necklace on top of it. Like it's not.

At least try to be a contrarian or something. You're saying, I made it prettier? Yeah, exactly. Before we head to the truck to make his final decision, any final words, Jose? Because I just want to hear you guys keep going back and forth. Any final words on just life in general or MMA? Just on this battle.

On the battle with Aaron? I mean, I've enjoyed this. I'm one of those guys who are like, I don't enter these fights thinking I'm going to win every time. I genuinely want to battle as, what was it, a battle of wits, you can't, I can't remember his name, from Princess Bride. He's like, this is a battle of wits.

I like going up against people that 100% know what he's talking about, and that is Aaron. So even if I do come up short, at least I lost to someone that isn't talking out his ass. Oh, Aaron, what would you like to say before we throw it to the truck for the final? See, I'm like Charles Jordan.

Like, I think about Jose, and I'm frightened. You know, like, I know that I need to come into this with a level of fear, knowing how versatile and smart, Jose is, and I need to respect him to a degree where I can't sleep at night because my brain is racked about how tough of a challenge this is going to be. And I'm very fearful until I'm actually in there with him, and I see that we are of equal caliber. And that's when I know that I belong. So that's how I entered this thing. It's been a rough couple nights knowing that this

was going to happen today. You know, there were tears. But I feel like I lived up to the challenge. Got out to Charles Jordane, World Warcraft player, too. I don't know if you saw this but 30 minutes after he lost, he's already tweeting me about World Warcraft. What are you doing, man? Go get stitched up. Visini was the Princess Bride character. I couldn't remember.

I could do this all day long, but alas, it is decision time, and I'm glad I am out of this. We head to the truck. Oh, mighty truck, lend us your ears and your impeccable judgment. After five rounds of debate, we go to you.

Who is walking away with the strap? The big cage sucks. Princess Bride rules and still Jose Young's Wow After I complimented Casey's mustache and everything

There's some real cronyism here Wow It was close I will say this was Of the three, Aaron was I knew Aaron would be Like I went in for this And I'm like I could very easily

lose this fight So I wasn't coming into this thinking I was gonna crush Aaron whatsoever So like I'm going to against A. Keeley Next time I'll quote children's movies and then maybe Casey will give me the What do you have against Princess Bride? The kid's movie.

Whoa. Whoa. Okay. Oh, whoa. Sorry, sorry. We're losing, we're losing connections right now and okay, there we go. Jose, you know what happens here. 30 seconds to talk about whatever you want to talk about, good, bad, and different in the

sport of mixed martial arts. Of course, everyone is expecting me to talk about it because people have been tweeting at me since the fight. But man, Andre Filly gained a ton of fans that don't even follow mixed martial arts. When I asked him just kind of an offshoot question because he was on the A side once and we talked about comic books about an hour after we went off air, just as like, you know, get his mind off of the close fight he had. I asked him about comic books.

And he gave a great answer. I don't even care if people don't care about this. This is about the comic book fans out there. And my God, did my Twitter blow up and be like, Andre Feeley fan for life. I don't even like fight fans. So Andre Feeley, you said you were going to lose a thousand. followers i think it's the exact opposite i think you have an untapped market there uh with us combo

fans and even charles jordane someone noticed he had the the the horde logo from old of the aircraft on his leg and people were like i'm a fan of his for life so the nerds were out in full force and i think they were embrace it embrace the nerd aaron i do want to give you some time because this is as close to a draw as possible i i have no idea how this is going to go normally i have an idea this one i had no clue where the was going to go, but I want to, you know, award you some time as well to say anything you want to say before we wrap this bad boy up. Well, like that last answer where Jose piggybacked on my answer, I'll piggyback on his. I spoke to Andre feeling. We talked about the Midwest emo scene for like 15

minutes. So I love that guy. He's awesome. And I also love Charles Jordan, who's, you know, he's making Canada proud, even though he lost that fight. I mean, what grace at the end when they were calling the decisions and the judge said 29, 28, Jordan, and he was like, no, I lost that bite. That guy won. That's the kind of guy he is. And that's why we love Charles Jordan up here in Canada. He's still only 24 years old, huge future ahead of him. His brother Louis is 20. He's going to be in the UFC probably by the end of the year. So keep an eye on the Jordan brothers. Hey, Aaron. Don't fight harder. Fight smarter. Win or learn. Did you hear anything? Aaron, since you're here, T.J. Laramie said he's got some big news coming

up. Do you have any thoughts on that? Have you seen these tweets? I'm thinking maybe contender series. Have you heard anything? I hear that the Tender series is around the other corner and I would love to see Tjay in there I'd love to see Louis Jordan in there I'd love to see Malcolm Gordon in there and I'd love to see Jasmine jassadavishist in there because these are some great up-and-coming Canadians Jasmine jazz devisius is no joke I don't know how you pronounce that one of us probably right I dozedavishis she's Lithuanian my dad's Lithuanian just give me the benefit of the doubt yeah I'm giving it to you I believe the truck took the

win away from you so I'm gonna give you a you know what sorry I'm looking at I'm looking at the scorecards I didn't see the Midwestern emo reference so it turns out it might have been a draw. I might have to calculate it. It's a lot of numbers to add up. I'm doing some half points here. So right now, unofficially, it is Jose the winner, though. But it's very close.

We're going to have to call. The mail-in-balance. The unofficial UFC stats at the end of the fights that people post are. Yeah. That's going to do. So, well, this is what the show is all about. This was an incredible battle between Jose and Aaron. Thank you both for coming on and sharing your wisdom with the world.

That wraps up another edition of Between the Links here on M-Mayfighting.com. sure you subscribe wherever you can. Lots of stuff coming up this week. We get the A-side coming up tomorrow. What the heck on Thursday? We got, I think the A-side again on Friday, preview show, all that good stuff. And then we have all your fight-night coverage on Saturday. So for Jose, Aaron, and the truck, I am Mike Hack. Big shot to Esther Lynn behind the scenes with the graphics. We'll see you next week as we go back once again between the links. You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network.