MMA Fighting - Between the Links: Episode 4 | Dana White’s Criticism of Curtis Blaydes, the Fallout of Max Rohskopf’s UFC Debut, and More

Episode Date: June 23, 2020

On this week’s episode of Between the Links, host Mike Heck moderates the matchup between MMA Fighting’s Jose Youngs and theScore’s James Lynch as they discuss Dana White’s criticism of Curtis Blaydes following his unanimous decision win over Alexander Volkov in the main event of UFC on ESPN 11 this past weekend. In addition, the panel gives their take on how the fight between Austin Hubbard and newcomer Max Rohskopf came to an end on Saturday and where the blame lies, where Jim Miller goes after his impressive opening round submission win over the highly touted Roosevelt Roberts, the significance of the UFC on ESPN 12 main event between Dustin Poirier and Dan Hooker, and more. Follow Mike Heck: @MikeHeck_JR Follow José Youngs: @JoseYoungs Follow James Lynch: @LynchOnSports Subscribe: http://goo.gl/dYpsgH Check out our full video catalog: http://goo.gl/u8VvLi Visit our playlists: http://goo.gl/eFhsvM Like MMAF on Facebook: http://goo.gl/uhdg7Z Follow on Twitter: http://goo.gl/nOATUI Read More: http://www.mmafighting.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. Well, hello there, everybody. Welcome to a brand new edition of Between the Links on MMA Fighting.com. My name is Mike Hack, your host, your moderator, and apparently the worst judge of all time. But we're back with another battle amongst the media discussing some of the biggest storylines in the wild and wacky sport of mixed martial arts. And as always, there's a lot of stories. So let us introduce the combatants first, the Challenger.

We're going back up north to Canada for the third time in four episodes. You know this man from his incredible work over at the score. The great James Lynch joins us on BTL James. Welcome back. How are you, sir? I am awesome, Mike. Thanks for joining me. Glad to see I can carry the Canadian flag forward here on the show. There we go. And introducing the reigning, defending BTL champion,

a man that many believe should not have gotten the nod against Aaron Bronsetter last week, but he's back to defend his crown once again. This time, he's as fresh as a daisy without having to travel to Las Vegas from MMIFighting. Mr. Jose Youngs, how are you, sir? Casey, where's my championship graphic? I demanded a title in my name. I won it. I earned it.

I'm 2-0. I don't care about this whole. He lost. He's blah, blah, blah. Don't care. Someone named A.K. Lee said I was the Diego Sanchez of Between the Lanes, which would be true. Hall of Famer has a lot of records, has a lot of big wins, far for a championship. I actually won a championship.

I'm 2-0 in championship. So I'm not the Diego Sanchez of M.A. I'm actually, who do you want? Call me the Israel-A-Sahna of Between the Links. I'm undefeated and I have the championship belt. So come up with a better thing. I'm glad to have another Canadian, free health care. So after I beat another Canadian up, you can go get fixed up for free, unlike me.

Well, we'll leave this game unscades anyway. Wow. Look at this. We are firing bullets right off the bat. But real quick, here's how it works. If you're new to the show, there's going to be four questions. These guys already know these questions. They're going to debate them.

points are going to get awarded based on how they present their argument based on the question that is asked. Doesn't matter if I agree with them or not. Of course, I could ask follow-up questions. And after four questions, if we have a winner, the show will come to an end. If we're tied after four questions, we'll go to the knockout round. And the winner of that question will win the game, the bragging rights, and the coveted between the links championship of the universe. If Jose wins, he moves on the next week. If James wins, there's a lot of different scenarios that can happen.

So let's just get right into this thing, gentlemen. UFSI on ESPN 11 went down this past weekend at the apex. And in the main event, Curtis Blades defeats Alexander Volkov via unanimous decision. And one of the important lessons that newer fans need to learn, because I've seen this a lot, is that not every fight is going to be a barn burner. And for the fighters themselves, getting the win and picking up that second paycheck, that's more important than having an all-time classic that we'll talk about for years to come. Curtis Blades gets the win.

It wasn't the most exciting performance of all time. Of course, Dana White at the press conference had some things to say about it. I'm pulling it up right now. And he said, quote, I like Curtis Blades, but Curtis Blades has the wrong attitude. As far as I'm concerned, I don't have anything against the kid at all. When you talk S like he talked this week, you better come in and whoop somebody's ass. When you talk S like he talked, when you talk the S that he talked and perform like you performed tonight, you look stupid. James, you won the toss this week.

You'll start us off. Is Dana White's criticism of Curtis Blades fair in your opinion? It's not. I don't get this. I really don't. I was watching the press conference. I understand the performance was not a finish. It wasn't the dominant win that Curtis Blades had alluded to during the week. But where is this trash talk coming from? Is he sure he's talking about? Is he sure he's talking about potentially dominating Alexander Volkov on Saturday? But where's this trash talk that he's talking about. He made it sound like Curtis Blades was Colby Covington, causing a ruckus heading into this matchup. Sure, Curtis didn't finish the fight. Sure, it could have been a little bit more entertaining. But Alexander Volkov's a tough guy to finish. We're talking about a guy that was finished at the very last minute by Derek Lewis, that's his only finish and his only loss in the UFC. So I'm not really sure what he was expecting Curtis Blades to do. I thought Blades put on a very smart performance. He used his wrestling, but he also stood and traded with Alexander Volkov as well. So I thought the fight was fine.

I don't know where he's talking about this whole trash talk thing with Blades. Like, have you watched the Curtis Blades interview? The guy's soft spoken. He's not out there demanding that he give the title shot or anything like that. He's just, he's saying, look, I wanted to go out there and dominate Volkov. It didn't happen. But I don't agree with the White's assessment of saying that he was talking. and all the smack and that the fight was bad.

I personally enjoyed the fight. I might be in the minority here, but I don't get where Dan is coming from on this one. I think he needed a little bit more sleep on that night on Saturday. Jose, what say you? I agree with James in the sense that I don't think it was fair considering, remember that tweet Kurtz Blades did put out. He's like, for those of you that want to rock him, sock him and swing haymakers,

that's not going to happen. I'm just going to dominate this man. You're all I think it's going to be super boring. So it's like saying someone saying, hey, I'm going to give you a red t-shirt, and then they give you a red t-shirt. And you're like, how come this isn't green? And you're like, well, I warned you four days ago this was going to be red. It's he told us how it was going to happen.

He did that. And then Dana White gets upset. But it's not fair, but I'm not surprised because he's done this a million times in the past. Like, remember when U.S.U.C. 169, when Overeign fought Frank Mir, Overe, Vering was on like this losing streak. He's coming up. First he got popped, and then he lost a big foot. And then he lost Travis Brown.

And then he has to go out there and fight Frank Mir. he has this huge contract and he just goes out there and does stuff enough to win. He doesn't just go out there and crush him. He just does enough to win. And then calls out Brock Lesnar after for a return fight. And Dana White's like, yeah, you talk a lot for a guy you put on that performance. So no, this does not surprise me whatsoever. But even not even just Dana White, just promoters in general say stuff like this all the time.

So no, not fair, but nothing new from Dana White. We talked a little bit of it about it before. I'm sure we're going to talk about it later on. he gave another fighter. He's like, there's no shame in doing X, Y, Z. But then he goes out there and rinses his main event winner because it's a heavyweight. And you know, Dana White doesn't like heavyweight fights that go to decision. So no, doesn't surprise me.

I mean, yeah, it doesn't surprise me, but it's 100% not fair. And I think a big part of it, too, is that we're getting that WrestleMania 18 feeling again. We got Hogan Rock in the co-main event. They stole the show. They tore the house down. The fans are all into it. And then it doesn't matter what happens in the main event, like short of, Curtis Blades doing a flying triple moonsault kick to knock out Alexander Volkov, it's just not the

same after we saw a war for 15 minutes. And look, Curtis won the fight. That's the goal. I can say this. I had casual MMA fans texting me on Saturday night before that main event started. And they expected Curtis to go in there and just ragged on and finished Alexander Volkov. He didn't. Things got a little hairy down the stretch. And there can't be anyone on this planet who felt that Alexander Volkov won that fight. But the performance was it was. And that leads us back to you, Jose. We talked about this on the post-fight show on Saturday night. Did the overall stock of Curtis Blades improve with that win in your opinion? Did we learn anything new? I think Curtis Blade, the only thing we learned is exactly what Curtis Blades said. He now knows he can go five rounds. We already knew his

wrestling pedigree. We already knew he could fight the best stand-up wrestling. and our stand-up fighters, like he's knocked out JDS, he's finished over him. He's pretty much beaten and everyone not named Francis and Gano that they put in front of him. So the performance wasn't a surprise, how he won what should not be a surprise, considering he told us how he was going to win. So the only thing we learned is exactly what Curtis Blade says. He goes, now I know it can go five rounds, which as a fighter, especially in heavyweight, because if you're a heavyweight contender, especially in his placement where you're probably not going to fight for a title of Francis and Ghanes seen in there, especially because you're O and two,

you're going to need a lot of main event fighters coming up. I mean, I think Alistroving is kind of in that same boat where he's always going to be in the main or common event based off of his name and ranking. So just the fact that he knows he can go five rounds is something I'm sure he's happy to, I know he's happy to have proven.

James, what do you think? From where Curtis stood heading into that fight to where he stands now, is there a vast jump, so to speak? There were improvements made, but just hold on one second. actually kind of veered off from the first question. I don't know if he can get de-kewed for that because he was asked if he was fair and he kept going on,

was he surprised, was he surprised? That wasn't your question. So I just want to point that out before I answer this next question. My name's also Jose. I'm not Brazilian. Okay, well, there you go. There you go. We're both over two on this one.

No, of course Curtis Blades showed improvement. Look, here's the thing. Is it a case of Francis Naganoos's his kryptonite? Yeah, it looks that way so far. But is Curtis Blades actually get heavy, what he actually is. He beat JDS earlier this year. There was some questions about that if he couldn't get the takdown, if he could knock out JDS, he passed that.

He ended up knocking out JDS. With Volkov, it was a case if he couldn't finish him, but Volkov only has one loss, like I mentioned at heavyweight. The fact that he went out there and went to five rounds and showed that he can go five rounds, yes, he was tired, but, I mean, they're heavy weights. We don't see a lot of heavy weights very fresh going into the fifth round. So I thought from that perspective of Blades getting the five round experience

and also just, you know, going in there and showing that he's got some hard. I mean, some heavy weights would tire out and not be as good. I think, you know, the two things. Number one is that he showed off his cardio in the fight and showed that he can go five rounds and two is that he beat someone other than some of the guys that were used to seeing him beat because this wasn't, he won the fight,

but it wasn't necessarily easy. It was a five round more as far as that went. So I think he gained a lot from this. And I think his talk went up to answer the question. He's in an interesting position right now, as both of you gentlemen alluded to it. You got the title fight coming up between steep A and D.C. on August 15,

France and Gannon clearly the next man up. So it seems that the best thing that can happen to Curtis Blades right now is that the title gets vacated after August 15, based on. on whether DC retires or maybe even Steep A. Meitchetch retiring, although we have no idea if the latter is actually a thing or not, but there are rumors circulating that could be the case. So Curtis Blades, as of right now, he's got to be the biggest Daniel Cormié fan on the planet.

Is he not, James? I think there's a possibility he could fight someone else that's not involved in the title picture here. I don't know why the UFC book that Derek Lewis and Alexiolanic fight on Wednesday before the fight on Saturday. What are you thinking? Why would they not do Derek Lewis and Curtis Blades next? It's a fresh matchup. It's one big name there for Curtis Blades.

Yes, you could argue that Blades has done enough to fight for the title. But I don't think anyone's in a rush to see him fight for Francis Nagano again. He needs another fight or two, in my opinion. Derek Lewis was that fight. Maybe he fights the winner of that fight between Alinic and Derek Lewis, although the Illenic fight would be a rematch. But I think in general, they should have waited to book Derek Lewis. I think that was the fight to do.

There's already some history there. You know, Blades going after Lewis for his win at UFC 244. Why did they not make that fight? So I think that could still be a possibility. I don't see him fighting for the title, even if it is vacant. I think they would give him one more. Agree or disagree, Jose? That he will fight, well, he's going to have to have another fight, especially if that

titles in August and Francis is waiting in the wings. Like, if Stipe wins and doesn't retire, I'm sure they'll do, like, they got to do, or if Stipei wins and doesn't retire, the France is there. Even if D.C. wins and then he retires and vacates, I would still imagine they would do Stepe Francis too. So regardless, if Stipe doesn't retire, they'll just do an, a, another title fight for him. I agree 100% with James.

I do not understand the timing of that booking. I, like, Ben Rothwell called out Alexio Linnick after his win in Jacksonville. And I was like, yeah, I really like that fight. Like two grapplers who are, like, Alexiol Linnick wants, quote, big names. Ben Rothel is not a massive name, but he's still, he's been in fighting. He fought like Travis Fallen twice. He fought like Tim Sylvia in, like, his third ever professional fight. So I really liked the Rothwell Olinic.

And then I agree, I agree. It should have been Derek Lewis versus Curtis Blaze. I said that when Aaron Bronstead was sitting opposite me on this show. And it seemed to be, it's not because I thought that Curtis Blades doesn't deserve the title shot, but because it's process of elimination. And he's just in that weird 0 and two category against the number one contender. So does he fight next again soon? Yes.

Maybe they keep fights Ben Rothwell, though. That's a step down in terms of rankings. I just, I agree with James. The timing of that Alenic Derek Lewis fight is just baffling to me. Yeah, and unfortunately, we're in a position where if that title does get vacated, there's no other fight to make. Like, it's not like you can bump another heavy enough. The only other thing I would say is if Gustafin just goes out there and destroys Verdume and then they're like, well, Gusin is a big name. You want to fight him?

But again, like, that's a big if. So, yeah, that's, but that's a, that fight has to happen first. Yep. Future matchmaking can't really do it right now. We'll see what happens with the heavyweight division. Point goes to senior James Lynch to get us started as we go from the main event of Saturday Night's Card to the opening fight of Saturday's card. Austin Hubbard gets a second round TKO win over newcomer Max Roshkopf after Max told his coach Robert Drysdale after the second round that he was done. Now, Robert tried to talk him into continuing on.

Max was asked by the referee if he wanted to continue. He said no. And this is probably become the biggest story to come out of Saturday night's event. There's talks of the Nevada Athletic Commission, you know, investigating this situation, the corner work specifically. And Robert Drysdale is taking a beating on this. But he did tell our own Guillermo Cruz on Saturday that he felt he made the right decision. Jose, there is a lot to unpack here. There's pieces I probably have left out of that whole entire blabbing I just did.

But what was your biggest takeaway following that fight between Austin Hubbard and Max Rochkhov? Well, I'm not going to try and pretend I know more about Max than Robert Drysdale. Dreisdell's a legend in coaching and MMA and all that stuff. I'm going to speak solely on, like, from my perspective, if you have a fighter that says I'm done, that's it in my mind. Like, just like there's nothing. Like, what else do you need to know? Like, yes, you might see your fighter saying, like, Robert Dreazzo, was like, oh, he was

just tired. And I was like, well, it doesn't matter. If your fighter doesn't want to fight, don't put him out there to get to, like, so what if he's tired? And he goes, I'm too tired to fight. Don't let him take more damage if he doesn't want to be in there. I mean, we've sung the praise of Trevor Whitman for years on being one of the best coaches in that. And I remember when Nate Markhart fought Kelvin Gassel in Mexico, Markhart walks back and goes, I got nothing.

I'm done. And that was it. Whitman was like, he's done. That's a rap. Like, he didn't even try and talk. Like, are you sure? The second he heard that, that was a rap. And Duke Ruf is the same thing.

Anthony Perez breaks his hand. That's it. He doesn't want to put his fighter out there to get A. embarrass more or more injured. So from my perspective, I'm not a coach, but if I, if I ever was and I see a fighter saying, I can't do this anymore, especially on the stool, that's it. Call the fight. I saw Andre Feely kind of go out there and say, it's up to the coach is to push you past that limit, push you push you past what you think you can do. And yeah, that's 100% true in training camp, but not in a fight when you take this time on short notice. You're 5 and 0. You've already been

beaten badly for a while. Should have just stopped the fight. And this probably wouldn't be as big of a story as it was. We probably would have been seeing the praises of Drysdale if he stopped the fight after that. So from my perspective, should have stopped the fight as soon as the first time is code. How many times you say, like eight or nine times? Shouldn't have gone that far. Once is enough. It's interesting because we talked about this on Saturday night after the event was over. Where I was watching it, I don't know if it's because of my provider or whatnot, but I didn't get to see that conversation between the second and third rounds. They flashback basically when they were about to start the third round. I caught like the last 30 seconds of the conversation

and then Mac saying he was done. So I missed any other conversation that happened prior to that. What about you, James? Like, what was your biggest takeaway from that moment and how the fight actually ended? I'm taking sort of a different angle on this. I think the biggest takeaway for me was that I think the culture is changing in MMA. Here we have a young guy an up-and-comer who's basically said, I can't fight. I mean, how often do you hear that in a fight? You know, Usually it's the coach who has to, you know, look at the fighter and say, look, you can't go on. But I actually want to give credit to Max here because I think this could be a change in MMA and how we see things going forward. How many times do we see fights that go on too long when the fighter doesn't know, you know, no better in terms of, you know, wanting to continue in a fight?

And, you know, Robert Drysdale has a very difficult position because there are situations with coaches where you need to tell your fighter to push on. You know, we had like Jose mentioned, you know, the Andre Feely thing. And then we have other people like Dan Hooker or, you know, making fun of Max for quitting in the fight. But realistically, I think, you know, this is kind of a sign of maybe things to come where you're going to see fighters being a little bit more smart about what type of damage they're looking to take. I mean, had Max gone out there and fought again, who knows how long that would be setting back his career if he, you know, suffer some unnecessary damage that he didn't need to take. And we had a situation like this weeks ago with Anthony Smith, but in Glover to Cher, where, I mean, everyone wanted that fight to be stopped, not just the referee, but people wanted the coaches to step in. And obviously, he's, you know, he's very pridefully. He obviously wanted to continue.

So I think my biggest takeaway is that we're seeing fighters come to that conclusion now where they know that it's, It's not really worth it. If they can't go out there and do it, why risk the rest of your career and potentially taking some long-term damage? So that was my biggest takeaway because as far as being a coach and being a fighter, it's a gray area. Now, the blame game has taken so many different twists and turns. Like Dana White surprisingly seems to have Max's back in this scenario. But the blame has been passed from Max to Drysdale.

Even Max's manager, Brian Butler, is taking a little bit of a hit because he knew there was an injury prior to the fight being signed on for. So Mr. Lynch, if you could like throw some percentages here on who ultimately gets the blame in your opinion, how does that all play out for you? Yeah, that's a tough one. So, I mean, in terms of the actual call itself, I mean, the blame has to go, obviously most of it has to go to Robert Drysdale because he wasn't listening to his corner. So I mean, we've got to go maybe 50, 60% as far as that goes. Your manager, I mean, if you know someone has an injury and they're not good to go, they're not ready to fight, he's got to take probably another 30%. And then the 10% is got to go towards, you know, the UFC as well. I mean, they have a job of getting fighters on the car. But, I mean, we talked about this, you know, in terms of heading into the fight. I mean, Max only had five fights. That's not a lot. That's a contender series call up.

That's not a UFC call up. And we're seeing that happen far too often where fighters are getting into the UFC and they're not ready. And I was very surprised to see Max as a favorite heading into the fight when you got a guy in Austin Hubbard who has way more fights than he does. So I think that's sort of where I would put the blame. I mean, ultimately it comes down to the coach for not listening after like the eighth time that your fighter wants to quit. I mean, there's one thing for a fighter to say I'm going to quit and the, you know,

coach kind of motivates them. But, I mean, he was very clear that he did not want to fight. So it falls on him. It falls on the manager. If you knew there was an injury, maybe he wasn't ready, there'll be other opportunities. I mean, fighters are getting signed all the time. So it does fall on the manager. And then, like I said, the least amount would probably go to the UFC.

But they have a job to fill up cards. So you can't really fault them too much. To sort of add to that, Jose, with these events coming together so quickly, we got fights falling out at the last minute. We're seeing fighters, like James said, get these opportunities. I mean, it worked out for Justin Jane, obviously. But he's got a ton of experience. And the call was long overdue, in my opinion and the opinion of many others. And we've seen guys come in on short notice with five or less fights over the last couple of weeks.

One got brutally knocked up by Tyson NAM. And the other was Max on Saturday. So do you think that the UFC will be much more careful bringing in these guys who are pretty green on the professional team moving forward? Or it's just, you know what, we get to fill spots. And whoever's ready, we're sliding him in there. I think we're going to see a little bit of change for a few reasons. One factor is Fight Island is coming up. So you're going to open a whole new floodgate of international fighters.

that weren't able to fight in the United States because they couldn't get in or they couldn't get back out, whatever the situation was. So that will open up a whole lot. The second is if the contender series comes back in August, I'm sure they're going to want to put, like James said, you're 5 and 0. That's the contender series record right there. Like, you win in the contender series impressively, then Dana White could give you a contract. Or you could be Brandon Lockney and have all the experience in the world and still not get it. But that's another conversation for another time. So I think with the aspect of a new crop of fighters being available to make fights, the contender series starting up in August, I think the UFC is going to be a little more selective.

Like if someone's 5 and O and they want to throw him against Austin Hubbard, who like I couldn't believe Austin Hubbard was the underdog. I mean, he just came off a loss to Mark Madsen, but he didn't look like bad in that fight. He was actually piecing him up kind of near the end. Yes, Mark Madsen was hurt in that. but if you look semi-competitive against an Olympic caliber athlete, you should not be an underdog against someone that's 5 and 0. So, Yaz Island opening up new crop fighters. The UFC maybe wanted to save some of these lower experienced fighters for the contender series that's supposedly going to relaunch in August. So I think that is going to play a factor in the UFC being more selective, not so much in the fact that like, oh, I don't want to give this 3-0 guy a shot against a fact.

veteran because I don't think that's how the U.C. operates, James said it himself. They need, they need fights. If they need a fight, they're going to book it. I think at the end they don't really care who is in there. I think it's a business, it would be a business decision to save people for the Contender Series, and now they have more fighters to choose from in

Yaz Island. James, do we see Max again in the UFC, or is it going to have to go back on the regional scene or maybe do a contender series fight? Have we seen, at least for the foreseeable future, the last of him in the UFC? I think he'll get another fight. I think they'll be very selective of who he's matched up against kind of like what they tried to do with Chase Hooper anyways and giving him

Alex Casares, kind of the slow build, sort of speak. But yeah, I mean, like Jose said, I think no matter what, they're going to continue to, you know, they have to do these cards. They have to fill out the fights. These fight island cards, they're not going to have any of these, you know, contender series guys on the cards because it's just going to be too logistically hard to do that. They're going to have more UFC fighters on standby to actually step in there and fight. Because a lot of these fighters, that's why you're seeing them get quick turnarounds,

they have to fulfill their contract obligations of giving them a certain amount of fight. So I think you'll see that going forward. But yeah, I think Max will get another fight. I think they'll give them plenty of notice. And they'll be careful with this because this is kind of blowing up in terms of, you know, the whole, the whole situation. So I think it would look bad if they just cut him off of this. Then they'd say, oh, well, you know, I guess the UFC's not being fair to him. So I think he'll get another cut just because it seemed like everyone was on Max's side in this.

What do you think, Jose? Yeah, he's going to, he'll have at least one more fight, especially because I'm sure all of us when that fight happened, We assumed Dana White was going to just rinse him in that post-fight press conference because we've seen Dana White rinse a lot of people for a lot less. And we've seen, like, I can't remember his name, who was the fighter on the ultimate fighter with the big afro that quit on the stool. And he was on Tito Ortiz's team and he even got put into the ambulance. Jamie Yeager.

Jamie Yeager. Like Dana White, like, everyone was like questioning his toughness and manhood after quitting on the stool. That is the Dana White I expected. The fact that Dana White said there's no shame in it was so unexpected that now I am expectingly unexpected. So in the past, I'd be like, that's it. He's never fighting again. He's never going to fight in the UFC ever again.

But now after hearing Dana White say that, I have to think the opposite is going to happen. If worst case, I bet he gets a contender series fire. Maybe because he took a fight on such sort of notice. The UFC's like, thank you for at least saving this fight for Austin Hubbard. we'll give you one more shot in either contender series or another shot in the UFC. But again, it was a weird situation that I wasn't. I didn't expect to be talking about Dana White praising a fighter for quitting on the stool. Yeah, unbelievable.

It's kind of a strange thing to talk about, but here we are. Jose evens up the score, one to one heading into the third question as we move ahead to another impressive victory from Saturday. Now you go from newcomer to Wiley Veteran. Jim Miller makes this. 30 fifth appearance for the UFC against the highly touted Roosevelt Roberts. He was a two to one underdog coming into the fight. He gets a quick submission.

The guy is just unbelievable. He has no signs of slowing down. He said he wants to fight at UFC 300 at this point. What a victory it was for 8.10. James, we're going to start with you on this one. Jim Miller is going to say yes to anybody the UFC offers him at this point. But after taking out a guy that a lot of people were very high on in just over two minutes, what do you do with Jim Miller?

You continue to build him up. He's winning fights. What is the three of his last four? I mean, obviously the UFC wanted Roberts to win. He's the prospect. He's the guy they were trying to build up here. But Jim Miller spoiled that party. He's got a fight a top 15 guy, in my opinion.

He continues to win like this. You've got Benil Darius. You've got Drew Dober. You got Islam Makashev. I mean, those are all fights I would want to see Jim Miller take part in. Because let's see if he can go on this run. You know, there's a lot of nostalgia when it comes to MMA. How happy was everyone when Robbie Lawler came back to the UFC?

Knocked at Joss Kostek and became sort of this pleasant surprise. I think Miller sort of has a similar path. at this point. And I think you've got to continue to build him up and make him the name because everyone wants to watch him fight. He's exciting. He can submit anyone, it seems. And you look at his losses, I mean, it's really tough to say that he's passed his prime at this point when he's beating guys that he's not supposed to beat and he's losing the top guys like Dan Hooker and Charles Olivera. I think the Holtzman fight he would have liked back. But I think in general, he's looked pretty good. So I can see the UFC continuing to put him in exciting fights and, you know, putting him, seeing how far

he can go at his age, because clearly age is not a number for him. Jose, James thinks top 15 makes a lot of sense. Do you think top 15 makes a lot of sense? And if not, where do you put Jim Miller after that? I don't even view James Jim Miller as like a guy you need to make sense with just because he'll say yes to anyone. So if the UFC was like, hey, we want you to fight Tony Ferguson. I'm going to be like, yeah, I'll watch Tony Ferguson fight Jim Miller all day. But if they're like, hey, we want you to fight Benile Darius, I'm like, yeah, that fight rules too.

Like Jim Miller is such an anomaly where you can insert him into a prospect fight. or a vet fight or a guy that's in his prime. And it would just make sense because he even he, how many fighters do we know say, I want to be a gatekeeper? That's what he said in Milwaukee. He's like, I had no problem being the gatekeeper because he just wants to fight. And if that means more fights for him, then so be it. I'm not going to try to make sense of Jim Miller's career because anyone that's taking 30 walks to the octagon is already an anomaly just on the health and like longevity. of their body, especially cutting down to 155.

It's not like he's the smallest or biggest dude. I think 155 is perfect for him. I like the Benile Derr-Uche fight. Those are two guys that don't need to do a lot of talking. They just go in there and have a great performance. Benile Derrius is just decimated Dracar close in his last fight. And that was an unbelievable performance. I didn't even think about that fight until James said.

So, yeah, I like that fight. I'm trying to think of who else is in the lightweight division. There are so many. again, I'm not going to try it and tell what Jim Miller what to do. Jim Miller probably doesn't know who the UFC, the UFC is going to say, hey, you want to fight anybody? And he goes, yeah, okay, and then that's a little fight. So, yeah, I don't care.

Jim Miller can fight whoever. Top 15 sounds good to me. I actually disagree with both of you. I think, I don't think he's, it's far-fetched. Like, if they did it, I wouldn't complain about it. But he should certainly like stick around, I guess, like, on the same level of opponent. Because I would say Roosevelt Roberts was probably top 25 in that neck of the woods at 150.

coming off the wind over Brock Weaver. But if he starts going on a run at the stage in his career, that's pretty awesome. So my thought was, and this has nothing really to do with the points or anything, Jim Miller versus Alexander Hernandez. You get two guys, which way are they going to go? Which direction are they going to go? Who's going to make that leap back up towards the top 15? I think kind of where they're at in their careers, I think that's kind of a perfect matchup.

Can Alexander Hernandez get back to the top 15? Or is Jim Miller really a top 15 guy? Am I crazy, Jose? No, but again, like, I don't, like, I'll watch Jim Miller fight anybody and I'm going to be excited for like the, if they, tomorrow, if they're like, hey, Alexander Hernandez versus Jim Miller on the UFC 242 card, be like, yeah, that makes 100% sense because of what you said. But at some point, if you keep winning, you need a step up in competition. If you've won three or four, and the only people you're losing to are like, what, Hooker, Porier, uh, Francisco Trinaldo. And yes, the Holsman one happened, but I think something where was Jim Miller going in that fight? there's no slouch regardless.

So it's not like you can just push in. Like you can't look at a Holtzman, losing the Hulsin be like, oh, that's an anomaly. Hulspin's a good damn fighter. But again, if they turn around, go Jim Miller versus Gregor Gillespie or Islam Machachev or Drew Dover,

like awesome, Jim Miller versus any of those guys I'll watch. So I don't disagree, but I don't agree because there's no real, like, if you have 30 fights, there's no right answer to who to fight. You can choose who not to fight. You're right. Like Cowboys, the same way. Like Cowboy versus Adela Hernandez was an awesome fight.

But if they gave him a different enemy, we'd be like, great, it's Cowboy. I don't care who he fights. Same thing with Jim Miller. Jim Miller versus Darius, that's your A1, James? Or is there another one? Yeah, I'll go with that. I understand the Hernandez booking. It's kind of like who do we invest in more going forward?

Like if Hernandez loses that, obviously, you know, you probably get cut or at least be close to it. But then if you have, like, you know, Miller fighting someone like Darius, at least it's kind of two guys that are still kind of working their way up. So like Jose said, you can't go wrong with either. Any Jim Miller fight is going to be a great fight. All right. James Lynch takes the lead. Two to one. Hell of a question.

As we head to the final question of regulation, it's a big one. Let's look ahead to this Saturday night. The UFC is back once again at the apex. Interesting card for sure. Co-main event, we got Mickey Gull of versus Mike Perry. And in the main event, a huge fight at 155 between the former interim lightweight champion in Dustin Porre, and he takes on the surging Dan Hooker, who we just talked about a couple different times in the last question.

Jose, we're going to start with you on this one. The lightweight division, I feel like whatever show we've done over the last, like, three years, we talk about just how loaded lightweight is. It's been like that for a long time. We got Habib Nirmagamadov is the champion. Justin Gage, he's the interim champion after he beat Tony Ferguson. And it looks like in September, those two are going to unify the title. And in a division like this one, it's how can we create the next title contender?

How can we shape these things for the future? And I know it's very hard to do. These are two of the very best guys at 155 pounds getting ready to lock horns on Saturday night. So if you are the UFC looking at this fight from a business sense, would it be more beneficial for the promotion in this division for Dustin Porre to win or for Dan Hooker to win on Saturday night and why? Hmm. Like in terms of a business sense, I would imagine they would want the New Zealander who trained. in city kickboxing whose teammates are already champions. I would imagine in a business sense, especially in a market that has been so lucrative.

And yes, I understand they can't go to that market for a while, but they need stars, especially if they're going to hold a lot of events in Yaz Island for Internet. They're going to need, like, if Dana White's saying like they want to go back and forth between Vegas and Yaz Island, they're going to need headliners, especially international headliners, especially from a market that even John Jones is circled. I mean, I was back when I'm leading into USC 247, he's like, I would love. love to fight in Australia because even the champions know where the good business is, and it is Australia right now.

Like Israel Adasanya, Alexander Volcanovsky, Dan Hooker, like, City, kickbox. Me and Jay, the three of us in Boston talked about, we were eating dinner and we were like, what is the next gym to have multiple champions? And I was like, probably city kickboxing is going to be either be Hooker or Volcanovsky. And all of us were like, yeah, I just don't know if Volcanowski can beat Max Holloway or can Dan Hooker beat Habib or Tony Ferguson and stuff. But now that is a reality. They have two champions.

If they get a third one that can fight for another championship, it's like that that era of AKA that had like Rockled, Habib, D.C., Kane, like that was where everyone wanted to go. That's where all the money was. So if you're asking business sense, it's definitely Dan Hooker because they need that market. And they would love to have like a gym with just like three. hyper-marketable stars from that part of the world. If Justin Pori wins, he's already lost to Habib

badly. It's not like he looked over the competitive outside of that guillotine that even Habib gave credit to. And he knocked Justin Gajee dead in one of the best fights I've ever seen. I was actually at that fight and that fight was absolutely awesome. But that was a different Justin Gagey. I was at UFC 249 and I heard Trevor

Whitman say, remember the last time you got comfortable? What happened? He goes, I got knocked out twice. That was Eddie Alvers as Justin Gage. If they want to do, if Gachi wins and they want to do Portia Gagchi, too, which I've always wanted to see, wouldn't hate it. But it's not as good of a business if Dan Hooker wins. So I'm assuming the UFC would want Dan Hooker to win. But again, I just really, I freaking love this fight so much. Someone is getting cut up or someone's going to sleep.

This fight absolutely. This is a violent chess match and I can't wait for it. James, what do you think? You know, the UFC's never going to come out and say it. But to throw out a WWE term, what's best for business? Porier winning or Hooker winning? It's absolutely Dan Hooker. What would Jose said?

I mean, a lot of it really comes down to, you know, where they're going forward in terms of cards. I mean, they seem to be all about Australia and New Zealand these days. Dan Hooker headlined a card earlier this year against Paul Felder. They're very much on the Dan Hooker train. And, you know, you see Volcanovs, you see Osania. They're really pushing them as well. So it makes a lot more sense. Plus there's fresh matchups if Hooker wins this fight.

He hasn't fought any of those guys. at the top. This is the biggest name he's fought so far in the UFC. And if Porier wins, you only really have the Gaecchi fight. Yes, they could do the Connor fight, but I doubt Connor's going to fight anyone outside of a title or anything like that. So really, your options are much more limited if Porier wins. And not just that, but Porre lost last year. It's not like he lost a couple of years to go to Habib. No one wants to see that rematch right away. And like, like, you know, it's sort of been alluded to that he, you know, he got dominated in that fight with Habib. So I don't think there's any rush to do that. Here's another scenario that we could

sort of put out here, too, if Dan Hooker wins. Is this maybe the end of Dust, Poyer at Lightweight if he loses here on Saturday. That'll be back-to-back losses. I know Lightweight is, you know, he had some good wins. He has a win over Justin Gagee, but what about Dustin Poyer at Walterweight? What about him and Colby Coveington? How about that fight? That's a fight that could have some interest because of the fact that they both used to train together.

Colby obviously left the gym in part because of Dustin Poree. They don't get along. You can do that fight as well. So I see a lot more possibilities for Porier if he ends up losing this fight and, you know, going forward, whether it's the Walterweight Division or being creative in the lightweight division. But really, they're all on Dan Hooker here. Again, it's much easier for them to, you know, have a fan base where, you know, like in Hooker's case, it's New Zealand, Australia, than an American.

It's just much easier for them to sell that. So they're, trust me, they're on the Dan Hooker train. And I would, I'm, you know, obviously they won't come out and say it, but they want Dan Hooker to win this fight. Absolutely. Yeah, it's an interesting time because if Porier wins, like you guys both said, you know, he just fought for the end of disputed title in September and he got finished by Habib. And there's no shame in that whatsoever.

We got the counter factor, which always looms. and it would be huge for Porreyei if he wins, and Gaichi beats Habib because Porre already has that win over Gaichi. You got a story, and I love stories. But if Dan Hooker wins, like you guys said, you got a fresh matchup either way. And Dan has become like a must follow on social media these days. So he would promote the crap out of a title fight

or wherever's up next though. But with that said, James, what I find super interesting about this fight, I don't know what you've seen, but there are not a lot of people giving Dan Hooker a chance to win this fight. Like, is he just flying under the radar here? Like, I don't know what you've seen, but like, even on the post-fight show on Saturday,

it is, people thought it was laughable, laughable, almost inconceivable to say that Dan Hooker's going to beat Dustin Poria on Saturday night. Well, I've actually seen it being pretty close, to be honest, and I sort of gauge it just from the YouTube comments again on the pro specs videos. Like, a lot of people are picking Dan Hooker. There's people out there who still think Dustin Porier has a bad chin and that Dan Hooker's going to go out there and knock him out. And not to mention, Hooker's got a height and reach advantage in this fight.

I've seen a bit of both. The other concern, too, is that Porre is coming off surgery. So, you know, how's he going to look in this fight? It's really tough to say he's had a bit of a layoff where his hooker fought back in February. So I see it as a very close fight. I don't think it's decisive for either guy going into the fight. I'm picking Porier, but that's just with the belief that he'll be able to get in on the inside and work of striking a little bit.

And he's better on the ground. So we'll see what happens. But, no, I definitely, I've seen a bit of both. I think there are a lot of people giving Hooker credit here. Jose, is this the best main event at the apex so far? Ooh, yeah, yeah, I would say so. In terms of, like, competitiveness, yeah, I would say so. Like, anytime a man, like, the greatest of all time in anything fights, like, that's a big deal to watch.

So, like, watching Amanda Nunes fight is always a treat. Watching Gilbert Burns, like, emerges now the number one contenders is always a treat. But, yeah, in terms of just, like, I gauge interest in a fight. Like, I don't care if this is in a 70,000-seat arena or if they're just sparring. I want to watch this fight. And there's been a few of those fights that have. happens like when Korean zombie fought Yarry Rodriguez or like Brian Ortega fought Max Holloway or or any of those kind of fights. I'm like, I don't care what the stakes are. I just want to watch

an insane high level martial arts competition. I kind of, that's what I view in this. Like you, you set of yourself, Ben Hooker is a must follow on social media. He's going to sell the crap out of any fight, but he doesn't have to. Like, this is a violent fight and people want to be entertained. Like, this is going to be the last apex card probably until August. what a show to end on is Dan Hooker. It doesn't pourier. If this was the only fight of the entire card, I wouldn't care. Like this fight absolutely rules.

So yeah, to answer what James said, it's, it's, it's, I favor Porier, but Dan, you can't count out anyone a lightweight, especially Dan Hooker. Yeah, that's a great fight. I'm really looking forward to it. I'm really looking forward to this knockout question. As the point goes to Jose Youngs, we have one question to today. decided all. And the truck, aka E. Casey Leiden, is standing by to listen to the answers. And he will take the heat off of me, which I love so much, and render the final decision. Neither of these

guys have any clue where we're going with this. So, Jose, you are the reigning champion. Are you sticking to the Patriot way and kicking this one off? Punt. He's punting. So James Lynch, let's go to you. You and I actually had this conversation a little bit on Saturday night on our Twitter DM. So let's discuss Josh Emmett for a moment. He defeats Shane Burgos and a barn burner. It's a huge win for Josh. He's on to bigger and better things at 145 pounds. But after the win, he was very critical of the media. He said that we all overlooked him. He said things like, you know, everyone in the media said it's precision versus power. Well, you know what? Power won tonight. And that was such a gangster line, especially the way he looked in the camera

and other things. But two part of here. One, is it fair for him to critique the media for giving their opinions on this fight, since that is our job after all. And two, did you take it as such? Or is he a fighter like many others who are just looking for a chip on their shoulder? I don't have a problem with him criticizing the media. I think it must not be great to hear someone say that you're not going to win a fight or whatever. I understand that. I mean, there are fighters. They do punch each other in the face, but they do have feelings, too, right? Like everyone. So I understand that. But in general, no, I think, and you know, it might be a thing, guys, that motivates him. It might be something,

were in his head. Like Volcanovsky referenced my pros pick video when he fought Holloway the first time saying that all the fighters picked against him. Maybe he needed that to go into second gear and beat Max Holloway. So it might be the same thing here for Emmett. You know, he talked about when I spoke to him, we talked about, you know, how he's the dark horse in this division. I think he likes being in this role.

I think he likes being overlooked. I think he likes the fact that people aren't talking about him because he's had a layoff and because he's a little bit older. I look at this as gamesmanship more than anything and a way for him to better himself because I think if he was the favorite and he won, we wouldn't get that awesome. some, you know, promo, as they say in pro wrestling after the fight. So I have no issue with it. I don't sit there and go, oh, was he talking about me? Like, even if he was, who cares? Like, it's, I get it. It's the fight business. Anything goes. People's feelings are going to get

hurt. It is what it is. What do you think, Jose? It's fair. I mean, if we, if we critique someone, it's only fair that if they win and have an unbelievable, like, a fight of the year, like, if that what, if you want a Wiley doesn't happen, then, like, that's right up there for top contenders for fight of the year. And that, like, we all say, that, I can't imagine any of the three of us. We're like, you know what's probably going to be a snoozer is Josh Emmett versus Shane Burgos? Like the word snoozer and those two names that never should be in the same sentence. So if, is it fair? I don't think it's about fair, unfair. If he, if that's what he wants to do, that's what he wants to do. Who's going to argue with a man who just won a fight basically on one leg against a top contender? If you want to criticize whoever, go right on ahead, sir, especially that I agree with you, that gangster. line while how power won. In terms of the chip on their shoulder, if that's what he has to do, if I am, I'm not a superstitious man whatsoever or I don't have like rituals or need things to like get me out

of bed. But like Bull Durham in that movie where he's like, whatever gets you in the frame of mind to be the best at what you do, do it. If that means you have to take 43 steps to the octagon every time, do it. If that means you have to lace up your left shoe first, do it. Like, whatever gets you to be the best that you can do, I am 100% for it. If Josh Emmett needs to just punch a photo of me for 25 minutes because I picked against him, by all means, if A.K. Lee needs to punch a photo of me for 25 minutes just to get out of bed.

By all means, go for it because that means AK Lee's predictions are going to be that much better. I am off for whatever gets you through the door. So if that is Josh Emmett's thing, go on and keep hating. us because you put like if you're winning fights on one leg and Shane Burgos, who am I to argue against it? James, one of the things I found fascinating about this whole situation was at his post-fight press conference. We're all, like all the media members are like, holy crap, Josh, that was a great fight,

great performance. You've got to be feeling good right now. He goes, nah, I sucked. I didn't fight good. That was awful. Why? Why would he say that? Is this just like a fight?

I mean, you've talked to 10 million fighters at this point, James. Why do fighters do this? Why are they so self-critical? I think because at the end of the day, you're going to have fans that will criticize them anyways if he did say he had a good fight. So I think it's kind of a defense in a way from people criticizing him. And obviously he checks the comments because otherwise he wouldn't have made that comment about the media picking against him. So I think it's that. And I also think, you know, the psyche of a fighter, I can't get in that mindset.

Obviously, I don't punch people in the face. So I think for us, we have to remember that you really have to be a special type of person to be a fighter in the sense. You've got to be a little bit crazy. I think kind of like covering the sport, too. You've got to be a little bit crazy. It's not for everyone. So I think for the fighter in Judge Emmett's case, I think it's just one of those things where he needs to do all these things in order to perform at a high level. And yeah, I just, I'm not surprised to see the way he's acting because you always see fighters do weird stuff like this.

And I think it's good to be your harshest critic because then you'll end up being better in the end. So all the power to Josh Emmett. And Shane Burgos, of course, Jose. What a performance from him. I'm not trying to take any shine off of you, Josh, if you watch right now. You're fantastic. You're in line for a big fight. I think Josh would agree with you that Shane had a really good.

fight too. Yeah, right. Okay, well, there you go. Baldhead, bald head, we respect each other. We're both in the same page here. Shane Burgos is going to take a lot away from this fight. He's still very young. He's been active. He's an exciting guy to watch. He's a big prospect of 45 right now. I don't even know if we can call him a prospect anymore, but he's still kind of new to a lot of the casual fans at this point, but I think he gained a lot of traction. His stock rose despite a loss. What do you do with him? Ooh, in terms of matchmaking, I say this is one of those fights where you lose, but you gain so many fans, not just in the, in terms of like the people watching the fight, but like the UFC. Like we've talked, we've said this, like James and I have said this

a hundred times, if the UFC's going gung-ho with these fight nights and they're going back and forth, they're going to need main and co-main events, especially if Dana White is so upset with Curtis Blade time of the forms that he did, he's going to want to rely on fighters he knows is just going to be just going there as like a human buzzsaw. So you know Dana White loves these kind of fights, especially like I remember when the Jamie Varner able to heal fight happened. He was like, he gave both of those guys, like all of the money in the world just because it was an epic fight. So in terms of who he should fight, gosh, I have literally no idea. Maybe the loser, no, maybe the loser of Ige and Cater.

I know he already lost to Cater, but I also favor Cater against Dan I. So maybe this is just me assuming Calvin Cater wins so he could fight Dan Ege. Edson Barbosa needs a fight. If he wants to stick around in Featherweight or any of us going to say no to Edson Barbosa versus Shane Burgos, that might be a little massive jump up. Not in terms of rings, but in terms of competition from, again, nothing to take away from Josh. But Edson Barber. We're talking about Dan Hooker. Look what Edson Barbosa did to Dan Hooker.

Like, he's shown that just because you're on fire right now, he's still going to, he's not going to care. He's going to put you through the ringer. He's our, man, I have no idea. Arnold Allen needs a fight. Ryan Hall needs a fight I don't think you give him Ryan Hall Andre Feely wants to fight Bryce Mitchell Frank Yeager's not a featherweight

anymore so I'll say the loser of Cater and Ege because James are you at that Boston card when Cater fought Burgos? I was. All of us were saying dinner we had so there you go.

All of us were talking about how this is a fight that will probably be a rematch will probably be a main event down the road just because of how much we knew about those two guys if they want to rematch Cater and Burgos now, I wouldn't complain, but I'm assuming Cater wins. So Ege versus Calvin Cater sounds fun to me. I mean, Ege versus Shane Burgos sounds fun to me.

James, what do you think? And why is the correct answer, Shane Burgos versus Jeremy Stevens? Well, I was just going to say, you didn't even mention Stevens. He's a guy that I would have put in there as well. I know he's on a losing streak, but that fight makes a lot of sense. I actually like the Arnold Allen fight because of the fact that Allen really hasn't been pushed to the limit. And I think Burgos is that guy to do that, where he could really, you know, push the pace and test this guy. That's the one thing with Alan.

He's getting some good wins, but he's winning by decision. Get him in a dog fight. Shane Burgos will give you a dog fight. So I'm fine with that. Ryan Hall's got to fight someone too. You know, get him in there. How about Sudik Yusuf? Let's see you the better up-and-comer is, sort of speak.

You know, getting the win over Andre Fili. Let's see what he's made of. Can you, you know, grind out of Shane Burgos? So I don't think there's really any bad options here as far as that goes. You could do one of the losers. You could do Barbosa. But I think Burgos, you know, take a little bit of a step back, fight someone a little bit ranked lower and see where you can go from here.

but I think the Stevens fight would be great just because, you know, Stevens has gotten more than enough opportunities. If he can't beat Shane Burgos, he probably shouldn't be in the UFC anymore. Yeah, and Josh Emmett versus the winner of Calvin Cater versus Danny Yeager sounds great to me as well. So with that being said, we could talk about this fight for another hour, no doubt about it. We go to the truck. We go to the man himself. E. Casey Leiden, who's the champ? Oh, this was close, guys.

This was close. I'm going to go up the half point system here and winning with a 10 in the final round winning with a 10 to a 9 and a half is and new James Lynch James Lynch

I have to say Jose said the terms I have a feeling James is going to win this one because I forgot Jeremy Stevens which is all fair to him but I'm going to lose someone at least I'm losing to someone one that I'm really good friends. Not that I'm not friends with Aaron, so on and so forth. I'm going to tell him that. I like, I have no problem. He's going to James. Oh, yeah. Wow. So now, now we got to figure out what we do. Does, does James come back next week

and keep defending on? I mean, I know you're a very busy man or, you know, do we vacate the title and you're just like kind of the interim champ who could just slide in any time he wants. It's kind of like money in the bank right now. It's like Conner. He's the team until the next episode. Anytime, anywhere. You guys need me. I'll be available. It's like the hardcore title, Mike. You like wrestling references. Come get me. Anytime. Wake me up in the middle of the night. Let's do this. I love it. All right. So next week, I think we can make this happen. I hope. We'll have to bring on a new contender. But James, you know the rules. With the victory comes to spoils. 30 seconds. Talk about whatever is you want to talk about. Good, bad, and different in the

sport of mixed martial arts. Yeah, let's go back to this Curtis Blades thing. Dana White, what are you doing? You need more heavyweight contenders in that division. Why don't you praise Curtis Blades instead of going after him? I don't like that. Yeah, just really like the card this looking forward to this card this Saturday. I'm kind of running out of stuff to talk about. I'm just so impressed with my victory here today. But great, great fight guys. Really enjoyed it. I really enjoyed going back and forth with you guys. Next time, we've got to do it over some beers. If I can get out of this country, Trudeau, open up the border. Let's go here. Come on. I'm getting tired of sitting here at home. Let's get going to some events. There you go. Jose, you know, sometimes we learn

from defeat and we come back better than ever. You know, how do you feel after this decision? I pride myself and not you guys know. I can remember everything about anything in terms of the man. The fact that I forgot Jeremy Stevens is in the Featherway rankings still, yeah, I deserve to lose this one. I'm not going to lie. Like, as we all say, worst critic, the fact that I forgot something is going to bother me for a week. And I'm not going to stop thinking about it. So I hope we get to run this back at some point so I can redeem my poor memory of poor Jeremy Stevens.

Class act all the way. Fair and square. If I had won, I still wouldn't have been happy. Yeah, this is one of those moments where I was just so happy that Casey made this decision and not me. So that's why we put him in this position. But there you go. A new champion, anything can happen on Between the Links.

It's like an old school WWF House Show. Maybe a title will change hands. Maybe it won't. You got to buy a damn ticket to find out. But that's it. Another episode of Between the Links is in the Books. We'll be back next week. Tuesday, 9 a.m. Eastern Standard Time.

These episodes drops to make sure you subscribe on the YouTube. the channel wherever you're listening to your favorite podcast you got lots of stuff coming up the a side on wednesday we got what the heck on thursday we got all your coverage for saturday's events starting on friday with the way ins and then just full speed ahead heading into fight island heading up in july so for jose yungs for the champ james lynch big thank you to eat kasey lyden behind the scenes in the truck esther lynn on the graphics i am mike we'll see you back here next week as we go back once again between the links I was like, where the hell is it?