MMA Fighting - Between the Links: Episode 5 | Dustin Poirier vs. Dan Hooker Classic, Did Mike Perry Play Us?

Episode Date: June 30, 2020

On a new episode of Between the Links, Mike Heck moderates the interim title matchup between Jose Youngs and Kristen King as they discuss the incredible #UFC on ESPN 12 main event between Dustin Poirier and Dan Hooker, Mike Perry's win over Mickey Gall in the co-main event, the best of the promotion's five-fight card slate at the APEX, and a look ahead to 'Fight Island.' Follow Mike Heck: @MikeHeck_JR Follow José Youngs: @JoseYoungs Follow Kristen King: @KristenKingMMA Subscribe: http://goo.gl/dYpsgH Check out our full video catalog: http://goo.gl/u8VvLi Visit our playlists: http://goo.gl/eFhsvM Like MMAF on Facebook: http://goo.gl/uhdg7Z Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. Welcome to Between the Links, hosted by Mike Egg. And here's your host, Mr. Mike Kek. Well, hello there, everybody. Welcome to a special live edition of Between the Links right here on MMAFutting.com. I am Mike Heck, the host and the moderator of this program. And truth be told, as we've done for the past four weeks or so, we recorded an episode yesterday. It was our defending champion James Lynch taking on a new challenger.

It was a fantastic matchup that went down to the wire. And in the post-production process of it all, the audio for the second half of the show just poof, vanished into thin air. So we put our heads together and we decided to move forward with a special live show. And our champion, if you know James, he is a monster. He has like 7,000 interviews to do today. So he's going to return to the show next week. And he will face the new BTL interim champion that we will crown on the show. today. And as expected, we have a lot to get to, the fallout of an exciting UFC on ESPN12 event,

and the UFC's recent stretch of events at the apex in its entirety, which was five events in total. We had four fight nights. We had one pay-per-view. And now it is on to Fight Island for the next four events, beginning next Saturday with the loaded UFC-251 event. And joining me to discuss all that and more. First, joining us on back-to-back days. She was the challenger yesterday, went up against James, and as good as that matchup was, she said something during her introduction yesterday that stuck out to me, stuck out to our producer in the truck, Casey Liden, to set the table for this interim title bout, if you will.

So let's go to the truck and play that clip right now if we could. Thank you so much for having me. I've been on Between the Lings before when it was on another platform, so I'm excited to be back. I will admit that I'm kind of nervous. I'm taking up the reigning champion right now and James Lynch. I thought I was going to have some easy work with Jose, but I'm ready to fight. I'm here, man.

Those are fighting words right there. I swear to God. Kristen King joins us. She does great work over Miami-May News. She was a recent guest on the A-side Live chat, although I'm not sure if another invite will be coming her way after that. But Kristen, welcome back. I appreciate your flexibility.

How are you? I'm good. Thanks for having me back. You know I love Between Links. It's one of my favorite shows. I'm happy to be going up against a good friend in Jose, but I'm meant. every single one of those words. So I'm hoping to give you your second straight loss on Between the Links today. Wow, I love it. And her opponent, the former Between the Links champion, he had a great

run, but he's back this week to potentially earn some redemption against James Lynch and add an interim title to his collection, the man with the best mustache in all of MMA media, the host the Aiside Live Chat from MMAFighting.com, Mr. Jose Young's. Jose, how are you, sir? Well, I would respond to whatever Christian said, but I couldn't hear anything. It was all. all muted on my end. Played. I couldn't hear it either, but I remembered it. I watched the clip again last night.

So she had some things to say. She talked a little trash, and that's what between the links is all about. So Kristen, let us begin with you. You won the toss. We saw this last week a little bit after the Josh Emmett versus Shane Burgos fight. And as good as that fight was, I don't think anyone was saying that it was like the do we officially have a new clubhouse leader, so to speak. If so, why?

If not, why not? Yeah, I don't think that we do. I think it's very close. It's like definitely second place, but that's why I said this is fight of the year contender. I don't think that it's fight of the year just yet. I mean, the year isn't over, number one. And then number two, I had to be reminded that Yohanna and Whaley actually took place this year. And that was an insane fight to watch too, because that was one of the most like unexpected performances from both women.

I was not expecting both of them to just go out there and pretty much hammer each other like that. But with the Dan Hooker fight and the Dustin Porre fight, I kind of figured that either it could go 25 minutes and be a full-blown war like it was, or somebody was going to sleep. I'm glad that we got a war between the two, but I'm not going to jump out of the ship and say that Yawanna versus Whaley has been dethroned as fight of the year. I think that's still the pretty clear frontrunner with Porier versus Hooker being second. I think a lot what comes into this is recency buyers. We were saying the same exact thing about the Emmett versus Burgos fight. I think a lot of people had their adrenaline pumping and they were just so excited to see a fight go down like that.

This is pretty much the same thing with Hooker versus Porre. So fight of the year contender, yes. Fight of the year definitively not yet. Jose, you know how we are. Recency bias is a huge thing in MMA. What have you done for me lately? And this fight delivered in a big way. But did it deliver big enough to dethrone the front runner for fight of the year in 2020 between John Waley and Yuani and Jacek?

No, it didn't. It's sitting at comfortably at number two, which is nothing to be ashamed of, considering I think Zhang Wai Li versus Yuan and Jajic is the best title fight I've ever seen, not named Robbie Lawler versus Rory McDonald. Like that is going to go down as one of the greatest fights of all time, not just this year. So everyone is for the rest of the year for all these fights. It's going to be battling for number two unless we just get absolute insanity. So no, I don't think, like Hooker, I mean, Poye versus Hooker was amazing. It's everything it lived up to be.

But I think there's a few factors that play into Jane Wiley versus Yawanna, kind of taking the place and to take playbooks out of my former co-worker Dave Meltzer. It's like the crowd was there. It was for a title. Co-main event slot underneath a highly end. They stole the show. Israel Adisani versus Yala Romero is supposed to be this big epic war. It obviously wasn't.

And everyone was talking about Jayne Wiley versus Yonan and Jake. So anytime a co-main event, a straw white women's title fight is now out. outshining the main event of a middleweight championship, but undisputed middleweight championship of the world in March. I think it's Zhang Wai Li, Yawai, and Jajik is going to go down as one of the greatest fights ever. And it's not going to get it thrown anytime soon. I will say that Krista knows it already. But personally speaking, I watched both fights yesterday back to back in preparation for the show.

And they were both fantastic, both really incredible fights, both have arguments for being the best fight of the year. And I don't know if it's recency bias or whatnot, but right now, on this day, I think Porre v. Hooker is the frontrunner. And to sort of piggyback off of what James said yesterday, which none of you got to hear, I didn't think there was at any point in the Zhang Wei v. Yuanah Jacek fight where I felt like any woman was in jeopardy of being finished in that fight. Exactly. This fight in particular, there were points where both guys we thought were on the verge of being finished and both were able to come back and we got a great fight. But tomorrow that could change. I could watch them both again and be like, you know what?

Maybe it is, Waley versus Yuana. But to kind of transition here, one thing we do in this sport a lot because of how it's shaped up is we immediately talk about the what's next. Like, we don't allow these guys to like savor the flavor for too long. And for me, I have to answer all these questions as part of my job. But one thing that kind of stuck on on social media over the weekend was Ariel Hawani from ESPN tweets out that Porre should fight Tony Ferguson next, which I agree is the fight. but Porier responded with, damn, let me, let me respir. And I'll say first off, clearly Ariel didn't mean let's line these guys up for a fight in August. Clearly, Pori deserves some time off after a fight like that.

Ferguson deserves time off after the fight with Justin Gaichi. But Jose, we talked about this on the preview show and on the post show. Now that we've had a couple days to let it breathe a little bit, is Ferguson the next fight for Dustin down the road whenever he's finished recuperating? Or is there something else? Perhaps a fight with Connor McGregor or Nate Diaz? or do we wait to see how Habib versus Gaichi plays up before we can even have this conversation because as we discussed last week, if Gaichi wins, Porier has already got a win over him and we got a

story already lined up for us. Well, if we're talking about what makes most logical sense, which is, of course, not allowed in mixed martial arts. It's Tony Ferguson just based off of the rankings. Tony Ferguson has like, look at, I can't remember who posted it, but it was like people were putting all of these resumes next to each other and it was like Dustin Poirier's, all of these former champions he'd be in and then Tony Ferguson and all these champions and former champions he's being and neither of them have ever been the undisputed lightweight champion of the world.

I think it just makes sense. The story's there, the rankings there makes sense. But again, you could throw in anomalies like Conn McGregor and Neidez, who I don't really categorize in the quote, makes sense fight. They can just fight whoever they want because fans will watch them fight whoever they want to fight. They have Pori Abna Dea is supposed to fight at U.S. 2.30 at U.S. 2.30 at Lightway. If they want to run that back, great. They want to run back the Conroger fight at 170, great. But I'm not counting those because I'm trying to make sense. So Tony Ferguson makes the most sense. But if they want to turn around and say, hey, we want to give you a Paul Felder versus Charles Oliver or Charles Oliva, like, cool. But if he wants to wait for see if Justin Gates

who beats Habib, I would imagine they want to give Habib the immediate rematch, because I know how the UFC is. So process of elimination, Tony Ferguson would be up next. It's one of those rare occasions where the fight that I want actually makes sense. Chris, what do you think? Yeah, I think in this instance, we definitely have to wait for the could-bee versus Justin Gaci fight to play out, because we don't want a repeat of what's happening in the heavyweight division. I think a lot of people were kind of upset with the way that the booking was made as far as the Curtis Blades fight and the Volkov fight went, because now we don't really know what's going to happen as far as contendership.

We don't really know if Daniel Cormier beats Steve A. Miotrich or vice versa, what's going to happen as far as the next contender, and that could be Francis Nunganu. That could be Curtis Blades. It could be a lot of people right now. So we don't want to repeat of that, especially at Lightway. It's already a stacked division. There are already a lot of names that are at the top that should get a title shot. I think that the Tony Ferguson versus Justin Porre fight makes a lot of sense at this moment.

I think Justin Porreux wants to take a couple months off. He just went through a 25-minute war. So there's no need to rush into a fight just yet. Let's see how Kibibib versus Gai-chi goes. And then we can take it from there. Obviously, the immediate rematch is there if Kibibb somehow loses this. fight, which is a plausible idea. I'm not taking anything away from Justin Gaichi. I think he definitely has a chance at beating Kabib. But I think you need to let that one play out first before we figure

anything out. And I know Connor McGregor is retired. I guess they're still going with this, that he's still retired. But the storyline is there for Porre too. They could definitely do a rematch between him and Connor. And then we could see who gets the title shot out of that fight, too. So for me, what makes the most sense with Justin Porre is probably the Tony Ferguson fight, or if you want to give him Connemn-Regger, that'd be great. I also saw Charles Oliva. He gave his reason why he should be next. And you know what?

I wasn't mad at it. He kind of made sense. He's been looking great at lightweight. He's in the top 10 of the division, so I wouldn't be mad at that fight either. I don't know if Dustin wants to fight down. I think he's ranked lower. But if that's what it takes to get to a title shot, I'm sure Dustin Pori is going to accept it. So there are a couple different ways that we can go with this, but I think Ferguson should be the clear-cut winner out of the next one.

Chris, I want to follow up because there's been a lot of discussion about this since Saturday night. And if they do book a fight between Dustin Poyer and Tony Ferguson, this will be discussed a lot in the build-up to the fight. Because both these guys have absolutely ridiculous resumes at 155 pounds. So if you were like the CEO of the lightweight division and both of these guys came in to like talk. to you to vibe for one last spot on your roster and you can only choose one based on their resume. Who are you taking, Porier or Ferguson? Oh my gosh. I'm probably taking Dustin Porier. I feel like his resume is a little bit. It holds up better than Tony Ferguson's. Don't get me wrong, Tony Ferguson has definitely fought a killer's row at lightweight. But I think he may have taken

a little bit of a hit as far as his last fight goes. I think a lot of people consider that fight against Gaiji like a fight of the year but past a certain point it looked pretty obvious that Justin Gachi was the clear-cut winner so I think that kind of took a hit on on Tony Ferguson's stock so I'm going to go with Dustin Porreier he always shows up the guy is always in a fight of the year contender so I'm not going to I'm not going to take Tony Ferguson over Dustin Porier Jose are you taking Tony Ferguson over Dustin Porier just based off of like on-paper resume yeah yeah I would have to say, Dustin Porre. He has one of the most impressive resumes ever.

Like, just off the time my head, it was like, he jumped up to lightweight, and then he, after his Michael Johnson launch, was like, Jim Miller, most fights in U.S. in U.C. history beats him. Then fights Eddie Alvarez, former U.S.C. Bellator, jamming to a draw, or a no contest, beats Anthony Pettis, or stops Anthony Petits, W.C. champion.

Beats Justin Gage. Finish his Justin Gage. Fight of the year, former World Series fighting now, interim champion. Who did he beat after that? Then beat Eddie Alvarez, former UFC, Belator, her champion. Max Holloway, current featherweight champion at the time. And then he loses to Habib, and then he just beats Dan Hooker, who was on a tear. So just that, like, chunk of time right there is one of the most impressive strings of fights I have ever seen. Well, Tony Furrison has fought a lot of great fighters, but I think what really hurts him is his long times off,

where a lot of these fighters are now emerging that we want him to fight, but he just hasn't fought yet. Like, fought yet. Like his RDA win is awesome. Cowboy Sorone is awesome. His Kevin Lee fight is awesome, but he hasn't fought like the Max Holloways and the Eddie Alvarez. And he just lost to Justin Gagey. So on paper, I think Dustin Porry has one of the most impressive string of victories I've seen in the lightweight division ever. So not a ton of disagreement here. I'm not sure what the peeps think here. But good start to the matchup.

In the end, the point is going to go to the former champion, Jose Young. All right. A great start. Excellent work. We move ahead to our next question of hearing the music in the background. Let's talk the co-main event because as good as Porya versus Hooker, as good as that fight looked on paper and how damn good the fight was on Saturday, the biggest story of the week heading into UFC Vegas 4 and probably was coming out of the event was one Mike Perry.

Platinum Mike is preparing to fight Mickey Gall. He said a lot of crazy things. posted a lot of crazy things. He went without coaches in his corner, without fellow fighters in his corner. He elected to have only his girlfriend in this corner. And she showed up. He gets a win. He had a lot to say during the virtual media day.

He told me that he was happy to tell me in the rest of the media to go F ourselves and that I'm only a loser. If I truly believe that I was a loser, he gave me a lot of life lessons to ponder over on Thursday. And it's all good. But anyways, Perry comes in a sizable favorite in this fight. but all the build to this Saturday in that fight, like it led a lot of people at the betting window to take a shot on Mickey Gall.

And first off, I think most people expected Mike Perry to come out there, guns blazing and try to take Mickey Gall's head off in the first minute of the fight. Perry didn't do that. He threw big shots, yes, but he was very patient.

He had a very smart game plan. He won the grappling exchanges on the feet and on the ground. This is a very balanced and disciplined performance from Platinum, Mike Perry. So, Jose, let me start with you. did Mike Perry play us all? Was this just a brilliant piece of gamesmanship on his part?

Or is this the fight you expected the whole time? It's not the fight I expected. I expected Mike Perry to beat Mickey Gall, but I didn't expect him to beat him by decision. Usually when Mike Perry wins, it's in a violent fashion. And yes, it was violent, but it was, it was a, it was quote, patient. But I think Mike Perry is one of those fighters that he can use his,

I'm not saying he does this on purpose, because I don't think that's the type of fighter he is. But if your opponent is like uber aggressive or just standing there, Mike Perry is going to just knock your block off, similar to like the Jake Ellenberger fight. But if Mickey Gall, he was like you say, kind of trying to use his length and kind of sticking his back against the cage and trying to use those countershots, Mike Perry still bodied him and big brothered him for most of that fight. So I was surprised he won the grappling, but I wasn't surprised. after seeing the first, as soon as Mickey Gall tried to shoot him for that first take, I was like, oh, this is going to be a bad day for Mickey Gall. Because Mike Perry is just physically stronger than, like, this is an older brother just pushing his younger brother around.

Like, yes, Mickey Gall might be a better grappler. He's just not physically stronger than Mike Perry. And if Mike Perry knows at least the positions to defend, it's going to be a bad day for Mickey Gall, and that's exactly what happened. So if you watch our preview show, I picked Mike Perry to win. I don't remember how I picked him to win, but I, so I'm not to answer your question. No, not surprisingly won, but yes, surprised at Howie won. Kristen, did he play us?

Did Mike Perry play everybody heading into Saturday and in the fight itself? Yeah, honestly, it kind of feels like it. I think that Mike Perry, because he's known for doing Mike Perry things, you just kind of expect a lot of craziness and wackiness heading into a fight. So the whole storyline was, I'm not having anybody of MMA expertise in my corner. It's just going to be my girlfriend. And a lot of people ran with that story. And as we do as MMMA media, I think we're all guilty of this.

We perpetuate those kinds of storylines. We kind of shed focus on that. So he kind of did. I think it didn't take away from his performance at all. But I think because we were so enthralled with the idea of this young woman being the only corner person for Mike Perry, who would benefit from some kind of good advice in a fight. It kind of took away from us focusing on what he may have improved in. I think in his post-fight interview, he was saying that the training was, essentially the same for him. He had the sparring partners. He was doing everything the right way.

The only thing that changed was his corner. And then you hear how he broke down why he had the corner in that manner. And I was like, you know what? I kind of buy it. I kind of buy why he just had his girlfriend in there. Maybe he just needed that extra motivation. And who am I to tell Mike Perry, who he can have in his corner. That's part of the reason why I didn't say anything. I thought it was obviously a little bit crazy to do that. And I think my concern mainly was for Ms. Littori, because I I don't think she's ever found herself in a position like that. So I was more concerned for the girlfriend than I was for Mike Perry, but I wanted to see how it played out.

So I didn't want to eat any words if everything went according to plan. And it did. So Mike Perry played us. We focused too much on the whole girlfriend's story rather than what he did better in the fight, because I definitely wasn't expecting the grappling exchanges. I thought that he was getting the better of Mickey Gall, which everyone would have expected Mickey to kind of win at those because that's his bread and butter on the ground.

So, yeah, we got played. And this is why you don't really say anything before it happens. And I'm happy it worked out the way that it did from Mike Perry because I was skeptical, but maybe he's going to start a new trend. Maybe now we're all going to see just wives and girlfriends in the corner of every fighter. And when he explained it in his post-fight interview and talking to the media, like, it actually made all the sense in the world. Like, I totally agreed with him.

But I thought, and you mentioned it, Chris, I thought his post-fight interview with John Anick was phenomenal. And listen, Mike Perry is no saint. He has said things in the past that he's going to be talked about for years and forever as far as the sport goes. But I feel like we kind of saw the real guy in that moment. Like the post fight scrum is a lot of fun. And one thing that stuck out to everybody was how much he wants to fight Darren Till. Like he wants to go up to 185. He wants to get a team. He wants to train with the old Romero to make that happen. Now, let's be perfectly clear here. Very few are going to scoff at a matchup that's gotten as personal as Darren Till versus Mike Perry has gotten. Darren Till's creating Mike Perry is a bum.com and sending people to a YouTube video where

Mike Perry is getting knocked out in boxing. So, Kristen, let me ask you, is there any chance this fight happens anytime soon in the Octagon governed by a commission because Darren Till is scheduled to fight Robert Whitaker, but win or lose, is there a chance we see this fight anytime soon? No, absolutely not. As fun as the fight would be to watch, and I have been enjoying every single back and forth that Perry and Till have been having. It's great to see trolls troll each other. That fight is not happening anytime soon. You mentioned Till has a fight coming up with Whitaker. That's where his focus should be at. And now with the win, he's back in the wind column for Mike Perry. Focus on getting someone in the welterweight division. You got to get ranked again.

So let's fight someone maybe outside of the top 15, work your way back up into the rankings. and then we can maybe revisit this whole thing. It'd be a different story if Till was still at Walter Waite, but he's not. He's starting a new career at middleweight. Let that happen, let that play out. And then maybe in a few years, if the beef is still alive, sure, I'd love to see it. But as of right now, both men should be focusing on what they can do in their respective divisions to kind of further their careers.

Jose, you're the man that says the things that make sense shouldn't be discussed in M. in a fight between Mike Perry and Darren Till right now, probably doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but people want to see it. Are we able to see it anytime soon, or is this just a crazy pipe dream? If we're going to see the fight with a government-regulated body inside the octagon,

probably not anytime soon, but that doesn't mean they're not going to fight. I mean, Mike Perry himself said, I'm going to stick my fingers eye and get a hold of him the first time I seen him. So if I woke up one day and saw a headline that, Mike Perry assaulted Darren Till, like, at a restaurant, I'd be like, yeah.

That makes a lot of sense. Like, that actually makes sense in mixed martial arts. That is possible. Not Mike Perry fights is set to fight Darren Till next at middleweight after fighting Robert Whitaker. If Derentil loses to Robert Whitaker, I think maybe, but I don't think it's happening any time soon for a few reasons. This pandemic is happening. Mike Perry needs to find a team.

So who knows who can travel where and when and what time, from what state? I mean, Mike Perry wants to go to Florida, which, as Kristen knows, is one of the most, has one of the highest spikes in coronavirus cases. I think it's only second to my state, Arizona. So if he's in Florida, who knows if countries are going to allow him in and vice versa and all that stuff. So is it going to have in the octagon? Probably nine times soon. But if Daryrenton and Mike Perry want to break brick in a Denny's parking lot in Duluth, wherever Duluth is, then sign me up to watch that.

So what's the fight then, Jose? How do you match Mike Perry after this? Mike Perry versus Nico Price is the fight to make. I just think that's a wood chipper versus a buzzsaw way and a happen. Both men aren't ever in boring fights, win or lose there, but they both lost to Jeff Neal in a pretty devastating fashion. They both lost to Vicente Lucke and pretty, both of their faces got rearranged by Vicente Lucke.

So I've known Nico Price has won that fight before. I absolutely love that fight. Nico Price is one of the most off-the-wall, oddball character. character is a welterweight and I think the only one maybe odder than him is Mike Perry so if they want to throw down I'm all for it I know they're both coming off losses but if Dana White and the UFC

are like hey we had just guys Cynthia Calvue helena fight night let's get Nico Price and Mike Perry fight for 25 minutes and be like yeah I'm 100% in for that so but again that fight doesn't make sense to be a main event but this is an MMA and nothing makes sense so Mike Perry versus Nico Price 25 minutes I'm all in favor for it

yeah I think that's a fight Kristen do you agree with or disagree with us? I mean, I'd love to see the Nico Price fight with Mike Perry, but I think that you're discounting another odd ball at Walter Waite, and I would honestly like to see a Diego Sanchez fight. Let's see how Mike Perry versus Diego Sanchez goes, considering they have the best corners right now, I think that'd be one hell of a matchup just to see how Latoria versus Joshua Fabia goes.

That'd be fun. Wow. How did I not even think of that? geez Louise Stas and Michelle Perreira Against Mike Perry That'd be fun To be fun

Real confusing fights to watch Right I mean Mike's got a very important fight On his hands as it is With the tax man So that's led to some Some really good conversations On social media

From the likes of Ben Ascran And Eddie Alvarez and others But love Mike Perry or hate him People watch him And you can see that Based on the numbers From the scrums And all that stuff on our page

So has Mike Perry ever yelled at you No. Oh, you got to get on me and Mike's level. You know what? I get yelled at all the time in Florida, so maybe it'll happen one day. He'll talk about my hair, maybe, I'm sure. There you go. And after a very exciting round two, the point is going to go to Kristen King.

And the reason for that, although both answers are great, is that she actually answered the initial question as it was presented. So she gets the point and ties the game. As we head to our next question, we mentioned this at the top of the program. The UFC is done in Vegas for the time being. They'll be back in August, but there were five events at the apex from May 30th. That was the one headline by Tyrone Woodley and Gilbert Burns through this past Saturday. That also included a pay-per-view. UFC 250, that was headlined by a featherweight title fight between Amanda Nunes and Felicia Spencer.

So my question is Kristen King. And I want to preface this by saying that I want to take the pay-per-view element. out of this equation because the natural reaction was that a pay-per-view is automatically bigger and holds more merit than a fight-night card, even though that's not exactly true based on this question. But overall, looking at these five events from the first fight to the last fight, start to finish, which of these five events of the apex was the overall best card and why? It's got to be the most recent one with Dustin Porier versus Dan Hooker. I mean, we got a fight-of-the-year contender in these two insane lightweight fighters.

Then we had the weirdness that was Mike Perry and his corner, which is always good for a story. And then he looked disciplined. I think a lot of people don't really give him too much credit for when he does sit down and focus and gets a good win. We had that. We had the Tanner Bosser knockout, which was insane. I'm surprised he didn't get a bonus for that. And then which was even better than the knockout was his post-fight interview because I don't know about you guys. But going into that fight, I didn't expect him to talk.

the way that he did in his post-fight interview. And then when I left the fight, I was like, you know what? I think I need to see Maurice Green versus Tanner Boehser, which is what I wasn't even thinking about going into this card. Then you got the upsets, like Julian Arosa and Kamaworthy. Those are insane. I think Kamowworthy, he had a great performance.

A lot of people probably weren't expecting him to submit Luis Pena, but he did. And then same with Julina Rosa. I think he found kind of like a hole in Sean. Sean Woodson's game and he exploited that and it was just great to see him get another shot in the UFC. You had some weird scoring, which is typical in an MMA card. You had the Brendan Allen 3027 thing. And then you had the debut of Kay Hansen.

She looked great too. So, I mean, you had pretty much every single thing that would make like a perfect fight card wrapped into one. So I think that's why Hooker versus Porre is the best apex card from Vegas. agree Jose or something else stick out that was I'm gonna play devil's advocate and I just made that decision right here I think UFC 250 was the best card outside of the pay-per-view female greatest female fighter of all time fighting the main event from top to bottom we had a lot of

a lot of finishes and a lot of really important matchups play out like Herbert Burns emerging with that submission win and then Devin Clark and Bruce Leroy using their platform to really push the Black Lives Matter movement on the biggest fight of their career. Speaking of Bruce Leroy, derailing Chase Hooper, Ian Hine is saving his job with a knockout after almost not fighting on the card after a false negative. Cody Stamen winning after the death of his brother, Magny getting another win. And then O'Malley and Garbrand getting those just knockout of the year candidates like within a few hours, like an hour of each other. And then all of a sudden, they're jogging back and forth on Twitter.

Alzyman Sterling Taps, Corey Sanhagen. And now we have a number one contend of course, Amanda Nunes, the greatest female fighter of all time does what she does. And now she's teasing retirement. So that could be the last fight we ever see, Amanda Nunes fight. So I think UFC 250 in terms of storylines, important matchups for the division, finishes,

and the greatest female fighter of all time being at the top is the best apex card of UFC 250. I don't think there's been a bad one. I'll say that. if we're trying to weed out what's been the best top to bottom all around, U.S.C. 250, in my mind. Yeah, and there's arguments, you could probably make arguments for all of them in certain ways. Because, I mean, like, even look at the Calvier versus I one, we all went in there with a, yeah, we all went in there with a certain feeling about it. That it was going to be like, ugh, why, why is this happening? And then the fight card plays out and we're like, oh, this is actually really, really good.

But I want to go back to you, Jose, because we saw a lot of fighters grow their old. overall stock throughout these events. Like some rose in the rankings, some grew in social media followers, some became sort of must-see TV coming out of these events. So of these five-fight cards, which fighter stock do you think rose the most overall? Like which fighter took the biggest step in the, I don't know, the it-factor department following these five cards? In terms of we're not talking about rankings, right?

Because that's obviously Cynthia Calvio. She went from unranked to like two after one win. So if we're not talking about rankings, mm-hmm. I'd have to be it's either Gilbert Burns or Sugar Sean Gilbert Burns going out there and just beating the breaks off of a former Welterweight champion who many

considered the second greatest welterweight not names George St. Pierre. Now he's getting a title fight. I think so Gilbert Burns is a big one of everything, Sugar Sean. I mean, it was the sugar show that week. I was on the scene for his fight and like that whole week it was the sugar show as

he said it. He said like Rebock made a million dollars just off his name and he made like $6,000, $7,000. He got the win he needed, the way he needed, the knockout, the walkaway knockout over established WEC, UFC, UFC title challenger in Eddie Weidland. And it goes out there and says, hey, I don't want more money like John Jones and Mazda. I just want to get paid when I'm worth. So it was the sugar show all week, got the win he needed against a very important venture.

Now we have Cody Garbrandt talking about Sean O'Malley, who's like top five former champion anytime former champion starts talking about you is important now there are people trying to fantasy match make that fight which doesn't make sense either but the fact that they want that fight is important and then sugar shan just saying all of the right things after and then doing the the podcast rounds and all the major all the major podcast networks after so in terms of the fans i would probably say sugar shan in my mind christin who stock grows the most over this month month and change in las Vegas i think i'd give it to dan hooker even in the loss.

Like, I don't think that he looked completely terrible. I think a lot of people heading into this fight were kind of discrediting him because he was taking on someone like Dustin Porre, which, granted, that is a big task for someone like Dan Hooker to take on. But it's not like he hasn't been beating some good names at lightweight. So I think that his stock overall did rise. He looked great. It looked like you said earlier.

It looked like he could have stopped Dustin Porier. And I think Justin Gehie, I know he said that he was going to get murked by Dustin Porre. but even he had to admit that, hey, he deserves a seat at the lightweight table. He's definitely going to be a contender. So I think that the next time that we see Dan Hooker is going to be completely different. I think he's going to look like a better fighter overall. So as far as the stock goes, I think it's Dan Hooker.

I mean, he still has a city kickboxing team behind him. I'm pretty sure if he gets another win, he'll burst into title contention again. I'm pretty sure. So Dan Hooker, man, I feel for him in a loss, but I think it doesn't do too much to kind of get him out of the, the top ranks of the lightweight division. Yeah, those are all good ones. Like, John O'Malley's a good one. Gilbert Burns, obviously a good one because, you know, he goes in, dominates Tyron Woodley,

becomes the number one contender in a loaded division. Now he's going to fight for a world title in less than two weeks in a main event against Kamara Usman. And, you know, I come, I look at these things from a different perspective because I interview fighters all the time and, you know, people reach out and they're like, when are you talking to this guy? When are you talking to this guy? And I think based on his interview heading into the fight and what we've seen afterwards,

I think Kammerworthy took a giant step forward. Because when you interview a guy like Colby Covington, of course, like fans want him on every week, either to listen to what he has to say or just so they could throw shade at him. But over the last couple weeks, I've had so many people ask me, like, when Kamauworthy is coming back on? And truth be told, just interviewed him before I came on this. And it is outstanding.

So you'll see that on what the heck. But who's taken one step closer to the BTL interim title? That's the real question right now. and that person is going to be the man with the best mustache in MMA media. Jose Young's takes a two to one lead. And I can do this for another 10 rounds because this is such a fun matchup. But let's head to the final question of regulation. Perhaps the final question of the game, unless Kristen King can come through here,

the UFC is heading to Fight Island. UFC 251 going down July 11th, a little less than two weeks from right now. There's going to be subsequent events on the 15th to 18th. And the 25th, every card has a lot of good matchups. There's four title fights in total on the island. There's a lot of quote-unquote next-step matchups, a lot of solid prospects, a lot of the international flavor that we've been missing. But Jose, let me start with you, of course.

251 has three title fights. It's a huge event. The other headliners, the other e-cards are great too. A lot of really, really good fights. So in your opinion, and you can base this on whatever criteria you choose, because there are no wrong answers here. What is the most fascinating fight island matchup that's set to go down over the next

few weeks? Hmm. Fascinating? Like, that's tough. Because I'm most excited for Usman Burns, but I'm super interested in Peter Dionne versus Josealdo. But, so I'd say that one. Personally, for me, I know everyone doesn't want that fight, but I think that's why I'm, to answer

this question specifically, that is why I'm so fascinated by this one. because people don't want Jose Alta have this fight, so I'm interested to see how he looks. And then Peter Yan, our own Damon Martin, is like looking at the rankings,

and he's like, can someone tell me why Peter Yan is ranked like number two? He's only beaten Jimmy Rivera in like the top 10 or something, something like that. He's coming off win over your eye of favor. So I think Peter Yan deserves this fight, but given the fact that Aldo's own one,

and then people are, there's people are now arguing that Peter Yon doesn't even deserve his ranking spot. I am interested in how they look against each other. I'm always interested to watch Jose Aldo fight. I'm very interested in how he looks at 135 championship weight. So I get people don't want that fight, and I get people hate it. And if they gave it to Alarmerey Sterling instead of Aldo after his win,

all power to him, I get why they made this fight. But in terms of to answer the question specifically, what am I most interested in watching? It's Yon versus Aldo. But the one I'm most excited for is Usman Burns. Kristen, what do you think? What's that fight that you just got circled on? your fight island calendar that you just can't wait to watch.

For me, it's going to be Paige Van Zamp versus Amanda Rivas. I think that there are so many different storylines that are about to play out with this fight. You have Amanda Rivas, who is 3 and O in the division. Since she came, she's absolutely perfect in the UFC. Her biggest win was the McKenzie Dern fight, and I don't think a lot of people expected her to go out there and dominate McKenzie Dern. And the way that she did, especially when it came to the, like, standing. A lot of people were surprised by that.

And she's been calling for this fight. She's been wanting Paige Van Zant for the longest time. Add on to that that she has like one of the most infectious personalities that I think I've ever seen in a UFC fighter. She's literally one of the happiest people. So I'm sure she's happy to have this moment against Paige Van Zand. And now we can go over to her, which is a completely different story. You guys remember Paige Van Zant was like all the rage back in 2015, 2016. She was headlining cards with another blonde hair, blue-eyed killer and Sage Northcut.

Those two are like touted as the future of the UFC. And now look how far we've come from that. It's completely different. Paige Van Zand has been talking about her pay. She's been talking about testing free agency, finding out her worth. We haven't seen her in a little over a year now. I think the last performance was the Rachel Osterich fight back in UFC Brooklyn. So we don't know what kind of Paige Vanzan.

we're going to get. This is the last fight on her UFC contract. I'm sure she's open to exploring different options, including one from Bellator, which would make the absolute most sense, considering that her husband is already there. So, I mean, there are a lot of different ways that this fight could play out. And this is almost like a changing of the guard. You have this new standout in Amanda Rivas taking on the old girl that we used to pay so much attention to, and who used to be the biggest and brightest star that the UFC was putting out there. It's completely different. So if a Amanda Rebus gets a win over Paige Van Zant. Sky is the limit for her.

And if Paige Vanzant wins, it could be the end of her as far as the UFC goes. But I don't think that she's going to be completely done with fighting. I think she's still going to have a career. She's going to have a future. It just might be under a different banner. So I'm super excited to see how that fight goes. That's a really interesting one because Amanda Ibas is like a humongous favorite. She's like an eight to one favorite for something crazy like that.

It's a dangerous woman. Yeah. But imagine a page. Van Zant goes out and like taps Amanda Hebas on Fight Island and salsa dances her way to the paramount parking lot. Like that would be amazing. That would be an incredible story. I'd love to see it.

Her stock could be sky high. Yeah, it'd be awesome. And then she can find out what her value is. She's been talking about that for so long. So again, so many different ways this fight can go. That's why I'm the most excited. Yeah, I think this will be the last time we see her win or lose unless the UFC really ponies up.

But I just feel like she'll be more comfortable in Bellator. but so that's an interesting fight. I do want to go back to you, Krista, because you know me. We've talked a lot over the years. You know how much I love the under the radar stuff and the under the radar storyline. So what other fight on this slew of events sticks out to you on these cards that just is just not getting enough love that's got you all fired up here? There are a lot of fights like that.

But for me, it's probably going to be Nathaniel Wood versus Omar Nomar Narmagnamatov. This is Nirmatna Madov's debut. I think they were supposed to fight back. And was it April? Was that UFC 249 where they had to cancel it because of the... I don't think they... I think it was supposed to be Umar versus Hunter Azure. Hunter Azure.

Hunter Azure. Right, right. He was supposed to fight on that card. He didn't get a chance to. Now they rebooked him against someone like Nathaniel Wood. He is coming in on a loss. But I don't think that matters. I think Nathaniel Woods is one of those guys that is like the next big thing coming out of like the UK.

So I'm super excited to see how he bounces back from a loss. I think he lost to like John Dodson. It wasn't a terrible loss. think so I'm excited to see what he does. I mean, this is like good prospect versus another good prospect. I'm always down to give attention to like the lighter weight classes. So I'm excited to see the new generation of Bannonweight stars and Umar and Magna Medov is no joke. I mean, he's been doing some pretty good work. So I'm excited to see how that fight plays out. Jose, what about you? Which are under the radar fight island fight? Um, there's, I like work, I like Kristen's,

where Kristen's head at, where she's picking the, like, the, quote, up and coming. So I am personally excited for Carlos Spars Marina Rodriguez, because Marina Rodriguez beat Tisha Torres. And the only people that have beaten Tisha Torres are champions or former champions. So anytime that happens, you have to circle her. I've been really, I've been really high on her. She's a very violent fighter for a strawaway, Carlos Spars. Of course, former Invicton UFC champion, I think that's a very important first step.

So it's that fight. but then I cannot deny how excited I am for Shogun Lil Mug 3, because I remember all of their fights. I watched all of their fights when they happened. So this is Little Mott's last fight ever in his career. He is a future Hall of Fame, or one of the most important fighters of the Light Heavyweight Division, going back to pride,

the Nogair brothers are just like the definition of royalty in mixed martial arts. I don't know anyone who, yes, Chelsun makes the jokes with the buses, and all that stuff. I don't know anyone that doesn't hold the Nogah brothers in such high regard. And then Shogun is like right there. Remember when he had like a three-fight win streak a couple years ago? And Daniel Korme, who at the time was the champion, he goes, if Shogun beats Anthony Smith and he wants to fight for a title,

I'm not going to say no to Shogun Hua. So like that was the champion then. So two icons of the sport are closing out an important chapter in mixed martial arts history. The last time we'll ever see Little Nog. It has nothing to do. do with the title. It has nothing to do with rankings or anything. This is just, as a man

who watched their previous fights and was enthralled by their previous fights, I can't deny, I'm not excited, I can't deny I'm excited for Shogun Lil Nog 3 and the call main event. Nicely done. I got two. One is like way under the radar and one is kind of surprising. Montel

Jackson versus Brett Johns is going to be a banger. I cannot wait that fight. That fight rules. in a lot of ways. And the other fight, I think, is really flying into the radar is the fourth title fight. Davidson Figato versus Joseph Benavitas for the vacant flyway title. Like, no one's talking about that fight right now. And maybe just because 251 is coming up.

We got Calvin Cater versus Dan Igay. We got fights like Jack Cromance versus Calvin Gaslam, Whitaker versus Till. So I feel like Figuer versus Benavitas is flying under the radar as well. And a lot to look forward to. There's some really good fights on Fight Island. And we have a really good fight here on between the lengths. As the point goes to none other than Kristen King. That was good.

Amanda Hevas versus Paige Van Zandt. You sold me on that one even more so. But let's head. And plus all cards on the table. I want this knockout round to happen because the question is freaking fantastic. So knockout round time. One question. Neither of these individuals have any idea where we're going with this.

So I'm going to simply ask the question. I'm going to guide the conversation, and that's where my role is going to end. After it is done, we will head to the truck to E Casey Leiden. He will render the final decision and crown interim champion. Kristen, Jose's names, and I swear to God, I will show you the video I recorded on my phone earlier. I put your names in a free random name generator that I stumbled across in case we got to this. And Kristen won the draw. So you get to choose, Kristen.

Do you want to go first? or do you want to pass it on to Jose Youngs? I will pass it on to my good buddy, Jose Youngs. Jose is not used to being in this position before. He used to be in the champion and kicking it right off, but he's going to receive this one, and I am so excited for this. So here is the question, but Jose, Kristen,

it's not really a question in the end. Since all of our loyal watchers and listeners like to call me Dana White's son or Dana White's little brother, allow me, if you will, to encompass that role. for a moment. So right now I'm not Mike Heck. I'm another bald guy with a crap ton more money, who is the president of the biggest fight organization on planet Earth. And it's rare that actual MMA media members get one-on-one time with me these days. And today you get 60 seconds to say anything you want to me, whether it's making a point about anything in the sport, maybe a particular

aspect that you want changed, or maybe you want to tell me how great I am or how good my, my light blue shirt looks. Either way, you have one minute to get it all out there. So we're going to set the timer. It's already there for one minute. Get ready. Get set. Go.

Well, first of all, Dana White, wear a tie when you're on camera. Well, nothing bothers me more than grown men who wear shirts, suits, and no tie. It is personally infuriating me. Yeah, you're a billionaire. Wear a tie. Look professional. Second of all, all of these fighters that want to fight you, and you're like, oh, we can put an octagon, you think you're going to pass a USADA test? I don't think so, Dan, away. I've seen

you on the men's fitness, men's health covers. Don't think you saw it as, don't think you saw it knock on your door. You're not getting away from that one. Second of all, third of all, answer a question. When I say, what's next for so and so, don't say, isn't ESPN great? I'm like, no, that's not when I ask guy. I ask you, what's next for so and so. Don't say, oh, uh, Joe, Joe Silva is this and that. That's not what I asked. I asked for what's next for Shaw and Miley. And fourth, open the books. I would like to know why you're spending $10,000 on vacations, but you're also paying fighters 10, 10 and 10. All right. That is my time is up. Time is up. And I'm going to answer your question the way Dana White would say it. I've said this a million times already. We're in a

pandemic, Jose. We're in a pandemic. Kristen, I mean, that's his answer to a lot of different things. We got 60 seconds from Jose Young's. Kristen King, it is now your turn. 60 seconds on the clock, one minute on the bottom right hand corner of your screen, and go. Dana White, I can appreciate what you've done for this for as far as the global pandemic has gone, but please be open to more criticism. You have to realize that putting on fight cards seem like the most insane idea ever. And just the fact that you pushed back against it so hard was kind of hard to watch. but in the end you ended up doing great.

I'm happy that you did it. You kind of found your stride when it came to the fight cards. That's great. Second, please, let's have an open conversation about better pay for the fighters. If you're saying that this is not a career, this is more of an opportunity,

wouldn't you want to give your fighters the best opportunity to make the most money possible and retire with a good chunk of change? I think you should be more open to that. We should be more open to getting these fighters the money they deserve, especially when it comes to licensing. If you guys are going to re-scival or get a new deal with Nike,

make sure your athletes get paid. Listen to the athletes. They know what they want. They know what they're worth. Give it to him, please. Wow. There you have it. I'm not Dana White anymore.

I don't want to be Dana White right now because you guys, you guys torched them. What can I say? And I agree with those days. Tie with the suit. Tie with the suit. Come on now. Good stuff.

Yes. But now I get to sit back, relax, and send it on over to the truck to judge E. Casey Leiden, the man with the golden gavel, to render the final decision. So Judge Leiden, what is your verdict? I was hoping for a knockout. I didn't want to have to go to the cards. I didn't want to do this. All right. Let me tally this up. All right, all right, all right. This is a tough one. You had to tie. You had to fight her pay. and re-bock money Between the links

interim champion Jose Young Casey well done I was on the edge of my seat the whole time geez Louise Oh hi I'm sweating I am sweating

Wow Wow what a tough decision that was I'm so glad I didn't have to make it With that Jose You are the BTL interim champion of the universe And you have earned a date next week with the undisputed champion, the great James Lynch.

And with that, you get the floor to talk about whatever it is you want to talk about in this wonderful sport of ours. Good, bad, and different. The floor is yours. Well, this was an unexpected win. I actually really liked Kristen's answer at the 60-second things to talk to Danaway. She probably was a lot more articulate than I was. She also ran this twice because she played yesterday.

And I found out I was going to be on this like 10 hours ago. So I also didn't even look at the quest. I just showed up. at 10 a.m. Pacific time. So it is also the AM where I am. So I would love to go against Christian again when we both have time. I thought she was awesome. I'm happy that she's on the show.

I very much looking forward to my rematch with James Lynch. I feel like I earned my rematch. I wasn't just granted it. This actually makes sense, unlike most of the mixed martial arts, as I always say. But James prepared to be one-in-one, and then the rubber match is going to happen later on.

but on my terms, as many fighters say. There you go. Kristen, consolation prize. I mean, you did this back-to-back days. I mean, it's, you delivered great performances both times out. What would you like to say to the folks watching at home? Just thanks for having me, man. This was fun.

I know I talked a lot of trash to Jose, so I got to eat my words, I guess. I got to hang my head in shame for a little bit. But I'm looking forward to the next time we go against each other. and then maybe me and James could run it back too. So thanks for having me. Casey, you're on my list now. You're on my list. New matchup in the works.

I love it. I love it. This today was an incredible matchup. I'm really looking forward to next week's show, the rematch to see if Jose can bounce back and get that one against the great James Lynch. But no UFC this week, but Invicta FC, Invicta is back on Thursday night.

So get ready for that. They always put on great events. They are probably the most under the radar fight promotion, in my opinion. Never a bad event from them. So check that out Thursday on UFC Fight Pass. But in the meantime, we are done. Big thank you to his honor, Casey Leiden on the ones and twos, slamming that golden gavel down for our combatants, Jose Youngs and Kristen King.

Thank you very much. I am Mike Heck. Thank you all for watching. We'll see you back here next week as we go back once again between the links. Good night, everybody. Hosted by... To the Vox Media Podcast Network. Thank you.