MMA Fighting - Between the Links: Episode 6 | Kamaru Usman vs. Jorge Masvidal, 'Fight Island' Lineup

Episode Date: July 7, 2020

On this week’s episode of Between the Links, Mike Heck moderates the rematch between MMA Fighting’s Jose Youngs and fellow journalist James Lynch as they discuss the new main event between Kamaru Usman and Jorge Masvidal at UFC 251 for the welterweight title. In addition, the panel discusses where Gilbert Burns now fits in the title picture, and debate on which “Fight Island” card—besides UFC 251—is the best overall from top to bottom. Follow Mike Heck: @MikeHeck_JR Follow José Youngs: @JoseYoungs Follow James Lynch: @LynchOnSports Subscribe: http://goo.gl/dYpsgH Check out our full video catalog: http://goo.gl/u8VvLi Visit our playlists: http://goo.gl/eFhsvM Like MMAF on Facebook: http://goo.gl/uhdg7Z Follow on Twitter: http://goo.gl/nOATUI Read More: http://www.mmafighting.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. Welcome to Between the Links with your host, Mike Heck. Well, hello there, everybody. Welcome to a brand new edition of Between the Links on MMAfighting.com, a special Fight Island edition of the program. I am Mike Heck, the host and moderator of the show. And I'm not going to lie to you, ladies and gentlemen. I am fired up for this one.

A lot has changed over the last few days in the news cycle. That's one reason to be amped up. Another reason, UFC 251 is coming up. on Saturday. That event got a big shot in the arm recently. That's the second reason. The third of many. And this is an important one, folks. We have ourselves a BTL championship unification contest. Verbal combat awaits us on the show. A lot to discuss. No time to waste. Let us introduce the participants. First, a long time between the links champion. The man with the best mustache in MMA media. And now he enters this week in unfamiliar territory as the challenger in the interim

BTL Champion of the Universe from MMAFighting.com. Jose, don't call me Jose Youngs. Welcome back to the program. How are you, sir? I am blessed. My name's not Jose. I still see there's no accent over my name in my lower third or whatever you want to call it. So when I become champion, that has to change along with the letter C next to my name.

There you go. And his opponent, a man who is now the hottest free agent in MMA, as you may have seen on Twitter. He was on the show last week. He actually successfully defended his title and a barn burner against Kristen King. The only problem is you didn't get to see it, as we explained on the live show last week. But he is here. And he is the reigning, defending, undisputed between the links, heavyweight champion of the universe, introducing the great James Lynch.

James, welcome back, man. How goes it? It goes. Thanks for mentioning that I won the other week. I was afraid you guys were going to slide that one under the carpet. But no, I'm happy to be here, guys, excited to do get out with Jose yet again. If you want the full rule set, explain, just go back in the archives, check out past shows, you can get them there because we're getting right into this thing.

So just to lay out the scene for those who are not aware of what has been happening, on Friday night, Gilbert Burns was removed from the UFC 251 made event against Kamara Usman for the welterweight title after he tested positive for COVID-19. It's super unfortunate. It was like a punch in the stomach to MMA fans around the world. And you just have to feel for Doreno in this whole situation. but he's handled things like an absolute champion, and obviously we wish him a speedy recovery, no doubt.

But after those reports came out, we heard from Colby Covington, and we heard from Jorge Mazidahl about wanting to step in. And on Saturday, the rumblings began. Negotiations were underway to have Mazadal replace Burns to fight Usman on a week's notice. By the time I went to bed on Saturday night, everything I had heard,

the fight was trending in a great direction, and we were just missing a few things, most notably the most powerful tool in combat sports, the mighty pen hitting the piece of paper. But by Sunday afternoon, MMA fighting confirmed multiple sources that this fight was signed sealed and delivered pending the results of a COVID-19 test for Mazadol,

which he passed. And here we are. So, Jose, we're going to start with you. You won the draw this week. We discussed this very topic on Friday night during our reaction to the Gilbert Burns news. Now that it's signed sealed and delivered on a scale of 1 to 10,

how surprised were you that the UFC pulled this thing off at the 11th hour? Like 10 being really surprised? Yes. One. If anyone's going to pull off something insane, it's going to be the UFC. I mean, they held fights during a pandemic. They've flown in fighters from New Zealand and now they're being quarantines when they have to go back. So the UFC has already proven that they're willing to do whatever it takes to get fights going on. They held three cards in one week in Jacksonville just to get sports back in our lives. So surprised that it was Masvidal. I would have been a little more, I wouldn't have have been surprised if they just kind of push the Uzman Burns fights, maybe September, because you and I talk like because Gaichi, Habib, but who knows if that happens in September now. I figured Mazvedal probably wouldn't get the fight, considering him and the UFC have been

budding heads lately over fighter pay. But Mazvadole said that he didn't get exactly what he wanted, but he got pretty damn close. So once I heard that, it made a lot of sense. So not surprisingly pulled it off, surprised they went with Mazvidal, given the last few weeks of back and forth between the UFC and team Mazvidal. James, what about you? Because, you know, Jose and I discussed it on Friday.

We thought that, like he said, this was going to get pushed back to maybe August, maybe be the co-main event for Cormier and Steepay when they have their heavyweight title fight. And Cormier was speaking with Area Hohani today. He thought that was the case. Him and Kamara had a conversation, like, you're ready to make that money champ? And it turned out that this thing was already in the works on Friday night. But considering we have an island and COVID testing.

flying all over the world to Abu Dhabi to make this fight happen on six days notice. How surprised are you that the UFC was able to pull a rabbit out of their hat here? Very surprised. I'd say closer to like a seven. I mean, it's not the fact that the UFC managed to put things together at the last minute. It's the fact that like Jose said, you've got Masfadol in here. And here's a guy that just a few weeks ago was on Twitter talking about how, you know, fighters need to get more, you know, revenue. There was all these things out there that really seemed like Masfodal was going to be out for a while. Count me as one of those people who thought Masfodal would not have this fight happen coming up here on Saturday,

just with the fact that it seemed like they were very far apart on negotiations. And they've had so long to book this fight together. Forget about Gilbert Burns. Let's just go back to even like January. I mean, this seemed like the obvious fight to do, but it took so long to get here. So it took, you know, Gilbert Burns getting off the card for them to, you know, finally put something together at the last minute. Because Masfadol sort of falls in that category of, you sort of like, you know, on his own

island, sort of speak, in the sense that he's such a marketable guy. they made a BMF title for him last year. This isn't just a regular fighter they're putting in here. There's a guy that comes with the price tag. And I really felt like a lot of these guys, especially when they're, you know, they want to get paid what they deserve. But we're also in a pandemic where the UFC's having to spend all this money. So they're not going to open up their wallets to make a fight like this happened. But they did.

I mean, Masfadol said that they got very close to the number that he was initially wanting. So obviously the UFC, you know, really wanted to make this main event happen. It's a big deal for them going back to Abu Dhabi having this card. They wanted to have the Walterweight title fight in the main event. And then the other thing we got to add in, too, Look who came together to make this happen. Two managers who hate each other in Abe Kao and Ali Abdel-Aziz. I mean, Ali could have double-dipped and got, you know, both of his clients paid.

There's 20% right there, right, with the 10% from each fighter. So the fact that they were able to come to terms on that alone is surprising in itself. So, yeah, it's got to be a seven. The reason I don't go a full 10 is we've seen the UFC have to scramble. I think they've had, if you look at all the international fight weeks over the last, I think, five years, all the main events have changed one way or the other. They've, you know, filled some pieces in there. We got, you know, Daniel Cormi, fighting Anderson Silva when John Jones is.

out. So they've been able to do it before. I'm just so surprised that it was Mossadol that they were able to put in that spot just because of the fact it seemed like they were very far apart financially on coming to terms on the title fight. What a story this has been and it's continuing on. There's a lot to get to with this particular fight and what it means for the division as a whole. And very rarely on this show or anywhere else, am I a Debbie Downer or a devil's advocate? Because I take great pride in being a positive thinker about this sport because there's not many of us. But there is one thing that's kind of irked me about the situation. As he should, Mazudal is getting universally praised for stepping in like this. It's a super savage move.

Everyone's talking about it. But one thing I haven't seen, Kamara Usman's not getting a lot of credit for this because think about this. He leaves his gym to go to Colorado to train with Trevor Whitman and Justin Gaich. He's getting ready to fight Gilbert Burns, who is a completely different fighter with a completely different skill set. And if Usman had said, you know what, I'm the champion. I was preparing to fight Gilbert Burns. He's getting to fight Gilbert but burns, let's wait a month, six weeks, two months, and we'll rebook this fight. Sure, he would have gotten some crap for it, but from, you know, from some like the unspoken MMA fans, but it would have been a completely understandable move should he have done that.

So James, back to you, why isn't Kamarizman getting any credit for taking this fight and a new opponent on six days notice? Because the matchup favors him. He's a very decorated wrestler. I think if you look at this on paper, and I know we're going to get to the matchup in a second here, but, I mean, for Usman, I think he looks at this fight from a style perspective and says, yeah, sure. And plus, he's probably getting a bump in pay as well because he's fighting a guy like Mossadol, who, let's be honest here, I love Gilbert Burns.

But Mossadol is a huge name right now in the sport with what he was able to do last year. So I think for him, there really isn't much to, you know, to risk here. I mean, yes, he had to go train somewhere else. But I think in general, this is a way bigger fight. I think fans are way more interested. And I think more people are going to buy this pay per view now that it's Mossfadol and not Gilbert Burns. Again, not taking anything away from Burns, but we're looking at the name value here. Mossfod is a huge name in the sport right now, whereas Burns.

Last year, we didn't even think this was even possible Burns fighting for a title. So you got to give obviously some credit to Usman here, but I really think it's not that risky for him to take this fight. And a lot can be said, like James said, about all parties getting this thing done because what a scramble fest that must have been. But let's just say, Jose, that the roles were reversed. Let's say Mazadol was the champion. He's preparing to fight Gilbert Burns.

And Kamar Usman steps in to take the fight on six days notice. You think people would be giving Usman the same shine Mossadol is getting right now? I just feel like he's not getting enough credit for his part in all of this. I don't think you would, I think you'd get some shine, but not as much shine. Because I mean, remember when he knocked out Colby Covington, and he was the biggest face to use professional wrestling terms. He was the biggest face in MMA at that point. Like people were praising him.

It was like, the crowd went insane. People like were leaving the arena early who were, who were Colby fans to save face. And then one month later, they show Usman and Masvidol on the screen. And Mazvidal is cheered. and Usman is just booed relentlessly. So it just shows how fickle MMA fans are, where less than one month apart, Usman went from being the biggest face to just a heel.

And that's because Mazur Dal is one of the most popular fighters in the world right now. He's never been this popular. He's never been as popular as he is right now, and he knows that. And I think Usman knows that. And like James says, this match of completely favors Usman. He's probably looking at this like, I'm going to fight this guy now because if he fights someone else and he loses, there goes that paycheck.

So Usman is taking this fight, knowing that it favors him. I think he would get some shine if the rolls were reversed. He's shown that he's willing to take these short notice fights. He's offered to fight on that January pay-per-view that was canceled eventually because they didn't have a fight. And then he even cut weight to weigh in when Darren still fought Tyron Woodley just in case to serve as a backup. And then he went and fought in the main event in Chile. He fought in the main event for a tough finale. So he's done the UFC favors before.

So we know he's, he's cable of doing that. Mazdael's just the most popular fighter now. So a little bit of shine, but nothing's going to compare to Mazda, unless you're Connor McGregor right now. We have a lot more about this fight that we're going to get to, but the first round is done. Point's going to go to our champion James Lynch as we move ahead to our next question because let's kind of look at the fight itself because clearly this is the bigger fight.

And no disrespect to Gilbert Burns, that was a fascinating fight for a number of different reasons. But when we're looking at pay-per-view buys and the, you know, the, you know, the quote unquote box office, if you will. No one in this world will argue that Usman versus Mazadol is the bigger fight. Like it's just the facts. It's the much bigger fight.

And Mazadol, like you guys both said, he's one of the biggest stars in the sport. There's a rivalry here. Remember the Super Bowl radio row incident, et cetera. And most people believe that this is the fight that should have been made in the first place. But when we look at it from a competitive standpoint, the X's and O's of the fight game,

Jose will start with you. While Usman and Mazadol, it's the bigger fight from a numbers perspective, Is it the more competitive matchup on paper than Usman versus Burns? I think that's tough. I would say no in terms of how their skill sets align. I think Gilbert Burns is grappling, would play a factor. And maybe Uzman not wanting to take the fight to the canvas as much.

Mazvedal's obviously lost to some elite wrestlers in the past. But then he's also destroyed Ben Ashton, who a lot of people thought, believe is one of the best wrestlers to step into the Octagon. So I think this fight might not be as competitive in terms of if you just lay out all their skill sets right there. But it has the much greater possibility of ending more violently either man. Like you saw, Usman was thought of as like a grinder that just wins. Like, oh, that was a fight I won at 30%. But then he goes out there and breaks Colby Cummings and John and puts him away.

And me and all the media they were saying that was three title fights. That was Germaintymy, Nunes, Holloway, Volcanowski, and Usman. And we were like, which fight's going to be a decision? And we all picked Usman Covington. And then it ended very brutally. So I think this fight has all the makings to end like the devastating fashion, the bad blood, the skill sets and like that. But we had Din Thomas on the A side. And we said like, how much does that play in factor?

And he's like, Masvidal doesn't make mistakes. This is like he's at 50 fights or something like that. And it comes down to at this point in your career, everyone's going to have, everyone's going to see the same things in camp. Everyone's going to fight similar style of opponents. You might be better than someone at some things, but it all comes down to who makes the least mistakes, and Mazvedal doesn't make mistakes. So I think it's a lot more competitive than people are going to, than people think.

But I still favor Usman. His wrestling ability is just unbelievable. And given Mazel's track record against wrestlers in the past, I know that everyone's going to say the Ben Asking thing. It's not as competitive. It will end more violently. That is my answer. James, what do you think?

When you look at both matchups on paper, which one was the more, I guess, competitive fight? It was Gilbert Burns. And not just because of the fact that I think Gilbert's more of a well-rounded fighter than Mosphal, but it's also the fact that these guys used to train together so they know each other's moves, sort of speak. So in that sense, it's like a chess match of, you know, who remembers what or how to sort of go that way as far as that goes. But I wanted to touch on a few things that Jose said. You know, Dean Thomas. I mean, obviously Dean's going to be a little biased towards Mosvital.

He used to work at American Top Team. Got to point that out. The Ascran fight, look, if Ben Ascran does. doesn't make the worst mistake ever, which is to go for a takedown in Masfadol, literally plants a flying knee at the perfect time. It was like the perfect storm of Ascran making the worst mistake and Masfadol making the right move

of doing the flying knee. If that doesn't happen, that fight gets very interesting, in my opinion, because I do think Ascran's wrestling could have been an issue for Masfodal in that fight. Now, we don't have any evidence of how Masfadol can handle a takedown in the last couple of fights. Look at his opponents. Darren Till, you've got Askron,

who didn't even have a chance to get a takedown because he got knocked out. You've got Nate Diaz, who definitely was not going to take that fight to the ground. is going to keep it standing. So it's really tough to say how much Masfital has improved. Now, we know that Masfadol has been working on his wrestling with Bo Nickel,

the outstanding Penn State NCAA Division I wrestler. That's obviously going to help him for this fight. But I don't know if it's enough because we're talking about a guy in Usman who not only can wrestle very well, but has very good pace, very good cardio. I mean, he went toe-to-to-to with Colby Covington, who has some of the best cardio in the division and was able to go five rounds with him. That's not something that Masthal has been able to show over the last couple of fights because he's finished his opponents.

So I definitely think the Burns fight was more competitive. But saying that, there is something. very, very dangerous about an opponent like Mosvodal who will fight anywhere, anytime, has really, if he loses this fight, it's not a huge deal. He's got double-digit losses. He's a guy also that, you know, is taking this on short notice and kind of being a little bit crazy in the sense that, you know, he didn't get to prepare for Usman for all this time. So there's something dangerous about that in the sense that I don't think Moswell has as much to lose here as Usman does. And that's a scary thing. With Burns, though, I mean, he got this title shot. It was well earned.

I think, you know, there was more on the line for him in that sense because this was his opportunity to fight for a title. Whereas Mosvedol, no matter what happens to him going forward, he's still going to get big fights. So I think from my perspective, the Burns fight would have been more competitive, but I think this is a lot more intriguing just with all the factors at play with the short notice fight, with Masfadol, you know, having issues with wrestlers or getting taken down like we saw in the Maya fight, you know, a lot of intriguing things heading into this fight on Saturday. And we've seen over the years that fighters who take these short notice fights, especially if they're the challenger, they've fared pretty well, like get some good money,

chance to become a champion. And it's almost like the pressure does get taken off of them and placed on the champion, especially if they come in as a pretty sizable underdog. I mean, Michael Bisbing has to top the list in a lot of people's mind when it comes here. I mean, Mazdaal, powerful striker, but I think he's getting overlooked a little bit here because he is very well-rounded. He's a dangerous opponent for Kamar Usman, no doubt about it. And James made some interesting points.

So, Jose, I want to throw this back to you. Do you feel like Mazdal comes in with, like, less pressure or maybe a little bit more because he's become such a big star over the last year. He's been in the public eye with the contract and the money and stuff that he does have, you know, there could be more pressure on him to come in and pull this off more than, say, other fighters like Bisbing and those before him. No, I don't think there's,

I think all the pressure is going to be out of Usman right now. I mean, he's been in camp, like James said. Like he, there's no, like, what, mysville said he has to lose 20 pounds in six days. Like, how much you even training during then? Like, you're just focusing on losing weight at that point. So if Mazurvald goes out there and be,

and just destroys Usman and, like, his 50th professional fights win the championship. Like, that's one of the biggest stories in MMA history. But if he goes out there and loses, like, he's, like, taking a huge risk and kind of, like James said,

they didn't need to book this fight. They could have waited until August, September, rebooked the Burns fight because they had two title fights. The UFC wants this title on this card. Mazvedal is doing them a favor, so all of the pressure is on Usman to perform. If you could go out there on Lazy-Neg,

especially off of the weird trash talk he's done, on Twitter lately. And even like when they brought him out, like the guest fighter in January and he was talking, they were kind of jonged back and forth. Like the pressure is on Usman as the champion. And he has to back it up where if he goes out there and loses like, like Rockold,

if he loses like Rockold did on like short notice after talking all that greasiness, Luke Rockall can't tweet anything in the world without someone responding with a clip of him getting knocked dead by Michael Bisbing. Usman is in danger of becoming one of those fighters. So pressure is one over. Like obviously Mazadol is going to have pressure.

It's a fight. It's a combat sport. It's basically just a marathon with punching. So there's some pressure there. But it has to, most of it has to be on the champion at this point. With a fight like this, people will throw out terms such as like this is a star making fight. And I feel like for Mazadol, he's already a big star. But if he goes out and beats Kamara Usman and finishes him, yeah, I mean, strap the rocket chips on him even more so.

But Kamar Usman is in a really weird. position because if he loses, it looks very bad on him. But if he wins, James, does this improve his stock amongst fans in any way? It has to, yeah, just because of the magnitude of what Mosphal brings to the table, how popular it was last year. Like, we forget. I know it's easy to forget, but I mean, this is a guy who headlined a card at UFC 24 for a made-up title, the BMF title. Donald Trump was there, the Rock. Like, there was so many people that came out for that. That just doesn't happen to every fighter on the roster. So, I mean, Usman can take some of that shine off by beating him. Conversely, though, I think Usman's also not considered very much of a popular champion.

Jose talked about how, you know, when he beat Covington, he had all this momentum, but we really haven't heard much from Usman since then, right? So I think it will definitely help his stock in terms of Maswold just has, you know, just a really crazy fan base. Like, you should see all the predictions I'm hearing from people that Maswell is going to knock out Usman in the first round and all these things like, because people love Masfittal. They're into it. So I think if he does win, it has to give him some shine. But at the end of the day, it's going to come down to how Usman markets himself and how he goes forward as the champion. So to answer your question, yes, it will help him. Yeah. And that's kind of what I meant by that, Jose. It's not because, like,

you know, people will still look at Usman. You're like, damn, that's, that's, that's a savage individual. But when it comes to, like, star power and stuff and people actually, like, buying into what he's trying to sell, I feel like if he beats Mazadol, he's going to be great for him and great for his, for his bank account, but it's not going to earn him a lot of extra fans. You know what I mean? It's going to piss a lot of people off more than likely, right? I think it would depend on how he wins. If he goes out there and just beats the soul out of

Jorge Moswell and just crushes him in two minutes, that's a pretty big star-making performance in the first ever fight card on Fight Island, and you just not only take the shine off of him, you just dump mud all over, so there's no shine and just take it all for you. But if he goes out there, no offense to Curtis Blades,

I thought it was an unbelievable performance against Alexander Volkov. He went out there and did what he did. If he goes out there and fights like that, and then, you know, you saw Dana White kind of throw Curtis Blades under the bus unjustly. If you go out there and has a fight like that, that people aren't going to want, you see

that what Daniel Kormnay fights, people are still bitter that Daniel Kormeigh wrestled Anderson Silva. Like some, like Donald, like Donald Saroni threw him under the bus. Like the next day, it was like, I don't want to go watch that kind of fight. Like, Daniel Kormner is still feeling that effect. And he just went out there and didn't strike with the greatest striker in U.S. history. Just took him out of his element and won. If he goes out there and fights like that, he's not going to be a star.

He's going to win. most importantly win, he's going to get the rest of his paycheck, and he's going to still be champion. So kudos to him. If he goes out there and destroys him in two minutes, Ouzman could be, I don't say he's going to be a megastar, but it's in, like you said, a step in the right direction. But it all comes down to how he wins. Yeah, we've seen instances of fighters where people aren't always bought in and they

have a certain performance and just like, you know what, I'm done throwing shade, here we go. So that could happen. So great round. Point's going to go to Mr. Jose Young's. As we move ahead to our third question. And we're sticking with this whole situation because it's the bigger story in the sport by far. And unfortunately, as we alluded to at the top of the broadcast, lost in the shuffle of all of this craziness is Gilbert Burns. I mean, this guy has come out of nowhere and he was one step closer to achieving his dream and becoming a world champion, got a huge main event spot on a huge card.

And then he tests positive for COVID-19. And here we are. Now, it would make all the sense in the world for Gilbert Burns to fight the winner of Usman v. Moss at all. but as Jose has stated on this very program multiple times, you can't make sense in MMA. You're not allowed to do that. So, Jose, since you had that great term under your belt buckle anytime you need it, we're going to start with you here.

Gilbert Burns should absolutely unequivocally fight the winner of this matchup on Saturday night. He is the number one rank guy. He's supposed to get this fight in the first place. But things can happen very quickly in this sport. So my question to you is, if you are Gilbert Burns and you're thinking about your championship future, to speak. Are you just the biggest Kamara Usman fan on planet Earth right now? I would say so.

Because obviously if Usman wins, it would be a no-brainer to rebook that fight. If Mazuridahl wins, I assume they're going to go to Colby Covington fight. So theoretically, Kamaro Usman's next fight, winner, whatever happens on Fight Island will most likely be Kamar Usman.

Because if Masri-Dahl wins, and they do the Colby Covington fight, just do Burns Usman. The winner fights the winner of that. And then Leon Edwards is still forgotten, which is a big problem. And that if Kamar Uzman wins, Gilbert Bern just fights that. It's similar to like the Stipe D.C. fight winner lose.

I think Stipe Miotr just fights France and Ghana next either for a vacant title or a title defense. So it's just, that's if Stipey doesn't retire, which is a whole other conversation down the road. So yeah, if he wants to fight for a title in his next fight, he really needs Kamauzman to win because like James said, like they both have the same manager. I'm sure it's going to be easy to negotiate with both guys like, hey, you guys are supposed to fight four. You want to fight Madison Square Garden instead of Fight Island in November. Cool, awesome. Mattis Square Garden doesn't happen. You fight in the apex or Fight Island again.

So, yeah, yeah. To answer your question, yes. If he wants to fight for a title, he really needs Kamar Usman to win. James, how many times have we discussed the meritocracy be damned approach that the UFC likes to take in these situations? Like at the end of the day, they are a business. And business needs to be great, especially in this time period. And it needs to be great at all times.

Now, if Jorge Mazdaal beats Kamar Usman, does this put a major wrench in the Gilbert Burns championship parade with all these potential big business fights the UFC could put together at 170 right now? 100%. And let me tell you why, because Kamar Usman, if he wins this fight, they're going to continue just giving him opponents and go through the regular run of the mill. It'll be Gilbert Burns and then maybe Leon Edwards after that and whoever else is sort of on there.

But if Mosid al wins, that really changes things here because he is a guy that's not only would be a champion, but also he's got this huge marketability behind him. He is a huge fan base. He's one of the biggest fighters in the sport right now. You mentioned Colby Covington. I'll throw another name out to you guys here too. And I think this could be the biggest fight they could make in the UFC right now, assuming financially they could come together.

How about Connor McGregor? You imagine that fight? But think about it from McGregor's perspective as well. He knows that if, let's say, we're talking hypotheticals here, obviously, but let's say Mosphodal wins. You know that if he fights McGregor, he's not going to take him down. He's not going to try and submit it. They would stand in trade.

And that would be one of the best fights stylistically. And just from a name value perspective, those are two huge names as well. I think if Mosswoodal became champ, you would look at some of those bigger fights with bigger names as opposed to him fighting. People are like, oh, well, Massoudal fight Leon Edwards. That's not going to happen. There's just no incentive for Mosswoodal to take that fight because it's not a big name. Whereas, you know, going forward, if he becomes champion here on Saturday, he's going to get those big name fights, I think, because there's that financial implication with it as well of who he fights. Even Colby, that's a huge fight as well, too.

Former teammates, Jose, you like pro wrestling? I mean, how about two former teammates fighting each other in that regard that are as big as those two are? So I think absolutely Gilbert Burns should be rooting for Usman because like I said, I think if Usman wins, you'll go back to the run of the middle of the Walterweight division. Your Leon Edwards is your Gilbert Burns, whoever. But if Masadol wins, that totally changes things. Like he's almost in that McGregor category where they're going to be looking at just big-name fights going forward. This is a huge fight.

Still got a feel for young Gilbert Burns with all this happening. What a crazy time indeed, especially if Mazadal wins. Like you guys said, it could be like three, four fights down the road before he even sniffed another title shot. I mean, you have Nate Diaz floating. You have Nate Diaz floating around out there too. Nick Diaz, remember when all of a sudden, people want to Nick Diaz to fight Horace James, yeah, Nick Diaz, like, either one is going to fight. Yeah, it doesn't, it's, if Mazvidal wins is going to be a can of worms for, and who knows

if they can afford all that. And you know whose name will come up as well. Good old GSP will be floated in there somewhere. Not that he even, like, has a chance, but you know we're going to be writing articles and having conversations about. George St. Pierre versus Jorge Mazadol, should he win on Saturday. But at the end of that, point's going to go to James Lynch as we head to the final question of regulation. We've talked to UFC 251.

We've talked this big fight, pretty much this entire show. We've talked some of the big fights on Fight Island throughout past weeks. But let's take a look at, I guess, the whole package. Of course, we have Saturday night. And we have next Wednesday, July 15th. That's headlined by Calvin Cater and Dan Igay. July 18th, we have Davis and Figuerreiro versus Joseph Benavitas, too, for the vacant flyway title. And then the 25th, we got Whitelian.

Whittaker versus Till at the top of that card. So James, let's begin with you here. Taking Saturday night and UFC 251 completely out of this equation and looking at the other three cards as a whole, from opening fight to the headliner, what is the best fight island card on paper as it stands right now? It's a tough one because some of these have really big main events and then some of them, if you sort of look at the bottom of the card,

it's not too good. But I'm actually going to go with one that's a little bit off the wall here, maybe. And I'm going to go with the Robert Whitaker and Darren Till fight because first off, that fight alone, name value-wise, just sells itself. but there's a lot of really cool matchups on here as well. You know, Jesse Ronson, who I just spoke with today. He's back in the UFC.

What a great story that is. Didn't win a single UFC fight. Grind it out on the regional scene. Get signed to the UFC in 2018. Can't take the fight because he's cutting too much weight. Sean Shelby says you're never fighting in the UFC again. Here he is back fighting on that card. He's taken on Nicholas Dalby, which is going to be a great fight.

Hopefully this fight still goes on. You've got Nirmagamadov and Nathaniel Wood fighting each other at Bantamweight. I don't know if that'll still stay in place, but that's still just a banger of a fight. You've got Alex Oliva and Peter Sabata. just an awesome welterweight matchup. And then in the co-main event, kind of a nostalgic fight. You got Shogun and Littlenog fighting each other.

I mean, just the names on this card alone are really surprising. And I think to some degree, flying under the radar. You've got Alexander Gussipson fighting at heavyweight now. What? This is crazy. I thought this guy was retired.

Now he's going to fight Verdum, who looked absolutely terrible in his last fight. So, I mean, there's just so many intriguing matchups. Even like Bechkehahe and Pani Kianzat, that's a fun fight. So I think top to bottom, this is one of the cards that's kind of getting overlooked,

but I do think it's, you know, top to bottom, one of the best cards going forward. Jose, July 25th, that's like, I think we talked about this before. That is like the definition of 2020 in MMA. Like all the craziness. We have a great main event. We have Little Nog's final fight.

We have just this unbelievable out-of-left field heavyweight matchup with a former retired fighter who retired for like eight months in Alexander Augustin moving up to fight for doom and then all those other fights. As chaotic as that card is, is that the best on this three-fight slate outside of 251? I was going to pick that, but James went first and he took it. And I'm really excited for that. I'm glad he brought up the trilogy fight between Little Naga Shogun, because it's the last time we're ever going to see a Nogar rather lays up the four-ounce gloves.

So I'm very excited for that. And then Shogun, of course, is the definition of an icon in M.A. So I'm going to pick something else. I'll pick the Davis and Figurato, Joseph Benavita's card from top to bottom. I love the flyaway division. I was really excited for that first fight just without the title. I know Joseph Benavis was excited just to fight someone new and actually get the division rolling. And then, of course, Figuero missed way. There was that headbutt. I interviewed

Joe B right after, and he was hoping to run it back right away. He's now getting a shot. Jack Hermanson, Kelvin Gasselm in a three-round fight? I keep forgetting that fight is even happening on Fireland. I'm trying to, like, fantasy matchmake the middleweight division. I'm like, who's Jack Cremantson fighting? And then I remember it's Kelvin Gasselm. I was really excited for that fight against Chris Wyden. I'm even more excited to see because, because you know Kelvin laid an egg against Darren Till. That was one of the worst fights I've seen, especially coming off like one of the greatest fights of all time against Israel, out of Sonia. I can't imagine

he's going to want to come out there and have a similar performance. And the Jack Hermanson got knocked dead by Captain Crystal Jared Cannon there. You know he's going to want to bounce back. And even on the bottom card, like I'm really, I always love watching Joe Duffy fight, win or lose. He's either going to get knocked dead or he's going to put on an amazing performance.

Sergei Spivvick kicks off the card. I grant the Grant Dawson fight, Aron-Lipski gets back in there. Pantosia is supposedly going to be the replacement. fighter in case Figueroa or Joe B. I can't imagine Doby Missed Way, but Figueroa Mouss way, Pantosius, sitting right there.

I think it was the Figuero-Pantosius fight up in Edmonton. I loved that fight. So if you're terms of violence, I think that fight card top to bottom could, I doubt the canvas is going to be anything but red at the end of that fight card. But Darren Till Robert Witter, because that fight card absolutely rules. So there's really no wrong answer. They're all fun. That's right. There is no wrong answer. They're all very good in their own ways. I'm a storyline guy. You can find him and all of them.

No love for Calvin Cater versus Danny Igay card. I'm surprised, especially with Frankie Edgar, dropping to 35. And there's just so many good fights on all of these cards. And it's nice to get some extra international flavor. But at the end of the day, because Devil's Advocate seems to be the term of the show, Jose is going to get the point.

And that means, it's time for the knockout round. And if you're new to the show, here's how the knockout round works. I'm going to ask one question of these gentlemen. They have no idea. what this question is, they will have 60 seconds to give their answers. We will then go to the truck to the Honorable Judge E. Casey Liden, who is standing by, who will be listening intently, and he and he alone will award the final point in this title unification bout. And James, since you are the official champion, what would you like to do?

Would you like to go first? Or would you like to pass the showcase on to Mr. Jose Youngs? I'm going to pass it over here, a little John Stockton to Carl Malone. Yeah. Well, great reference. Let me calm him alone. That's a compliment. He was good in the 90s.

Come on. Yeah, but he was the greatest person. So I will take that as an insult. As a basketball player. Sure. That's what you're saying. But here is the question, Jose, because this year in MMA has been absolutely wild. And it's still only July.

So a lot more can happen. Hell, a lot more can happen in the next week. A lot more can happen before we even drop the show on Tuesday morning. That's the way the news cycle has been moving along throughout the year. So what we are looking for, Jose. in 60 seconds or less, is your oh-so bold prediction for the rest of 2020 in the sport of MMA? It could be in the UFC, could be outside of the UFC, could be in whatever fast as the sport you see fit. But what outside of the box bold prediction do you feel

will happen before this insane year comes to an end? My bold, man, bold predictions, it's like it's hard to say when you don't even know it's going to happen in 25 hours. My bold prediction will be Steve Amy Oitchitcher will be champion at the end of heavyweight, but he will lose in 2020. I think he's going to lose to Daniel Cormier, but he'll beat Francis Gano in the rematch. I think Daniel Cormier was well on his way. Not well on his way, but I think he was going to win that fight if he didn't decide to mark up Stipe's face and bail on his wrestling. So I believe Stipe loses the rubber match. I don't think he retires after losing because he's not going to want to go out on an L. He's going to come back beat Francis Gano in their rematch. So Stipe will lose,

but he will also remain champion and he will beat Francis Gano on the final card. I don't know the date because who knows what the UFC is going to happen if fight Island happens anytime soon, but he will fight for that actually I'm going to speak this soon as this is Steve Amioch is going to fight Francis and Gano in a tiny cage in a UFC apex and someone is going to get their head

knocked off into the, there are no rows, so it's just going to get knocked off into the ether. So Steve Amyoches will beat Francis but he will also lose in August. Wow, look at that. Perfect time and right as the clock hit zero. James Lynch, you got to hear it first, you got an extra minute to

prepare your answer? What's your bold prediction for the rest of 2020? John Jones and Connor McGregor will not fight again this year. And I know Connor McGregor's technically retired, but even if I think if Mosvedol wins, I think they're not going to be able to come to terms. I think you're going to see two of the biggest stars in the UFC not fight this year. And part of that is because of the fact that the UFC is not going to pony up the money they want to get these guys going. Something I've explained before on this show is that no matter what happens, the UFC has to fulfill their cards. They're going to fill them up with whoever they can. Who's available, who isn't, they're going to figure it out.

And just looking at the end of the year here, they don't necessarily. necessarily need a Jones or McGregor to fight. They pretty much got all the pay-per-views filled up, and I think they can work with what they have. And I think this is going to be a bigger story in the sense that you're going to have guys like Jones and then McGregor who, you know, fans are waiting to see their next fight, but they're going to be two of the biggest guys

that are sort of holding out due to more money, and I don't see either of them fighting, because I think John wants to go to heavyweight, but I don't think they're going to pay him the money he wants. He wants to fight Nagano, but I don't think they're going to do a super fight like that unless there's crowds in there, unless they can absolutely maximize what they can on John Jones. And same thing with Connemar Greger.

He's not fighting unless there's fans in there. All the fans from Myrland coming out. I just don't see it happening. Oh, man, what a battle. Bold predictions. Off the top of the dome. That's what Between the Links is all about. And with that, we go to the man with the Golden Gaville himself.

Judge E. Casey Lydon. Casey, you heard the closing arguments. How do you rule in this all-important title unification scrap here on between the Lings? It was a tough one, gentlemen. It was a tough one. Oh, man. He's he had Jones McGregor, Steve A. D.C.

Oh, I hate this 10-point mess system. Okay, here we go. And still. Unified. James Lynch retains the title. He is unified the titles. He is the undisputed between the links champion. What a run he has been on.

And you know how it goes, James Lynch. victory goes to spoils. You don't get a championship belt or the loser's money like they did in the 80s in professional wrestling. But you do get 30 seconds to talk about whatever you want to talk about. Good, bad, and a different in the sport of MMA. The floor is yours, sir. All right. Well, how dumb do fans look now that saying that Jorge Mastval was afraid to fight Kamar Usman? Can we find those tweets? Can we go back and highlight those people who said that Mosswood, of all people, the same guy who was in backyard brawls growing up, was scared to fight Kamar Usman? Listen, everyone's so reactionary in the sport, but let's use this as an example to show that no fighters are,

to do anything. There's business stuff. There's finances. There's all these things. But enough of this, you know, someone's afraid to fight. Like, look, no fighter is afraid. If they're going to step in the octagon, they're not afraid of anything. So we've got to close that narrative off. But more importantly, I can't believe this run I've been on. I better go buy a lottery ticket or something. It's been a good couple weeks. Absolutely. One thing you have not done, James is the champion. And I know we didn't get to hear you last week is you haven't used the outlet to call your shot. Is there anybody that you would like to defend this title against that you feel deserves an opportunity.

I'm just trying to think here. You put me on the spot. You know what? Guy talks a big game. He's a fellow Canadian. Aaron Bronsetter. Let's see what he's made of. Bring him up to the plate here.

Ooh. I love it. I love the call. That's beautiful. Jose, what would you like to say? It was a hell of a battle. Could have gone either way. Hey, man.

I'm just O and two against the champ. It happens. I'm now in that Josh Kostched, Cody Garbrand, Alexander Gustafin, Yawani and J.Chic. Like, sometimes you go O'N2. and I beat Aaron Knight and all of a sudden

if Aaron Bronstetter does face James Lynch next, I become the biggest Aaron Bronstetter fan because I am 1 in O against Aaron Bronstetter so if James gets dethroned a la Anderson Silva which happened seven years ago today I was actually at that fight, then yeah, well seven years ago while we were recording this

then yeah, then I get to fight physically fight Aaron Bronstetter not between the links, physical fight. I'll see you later. Wow, how about that? So we've come full circle here here on Between the Links and that's what it's all about. So thank you guys very much for watching and or listening.

The numbers have been great, especially on the podcast network. We appreciate that very much. But for Jose Youngs, for our champion James Lynch, for Judge E. Casey Lide on the production, big shout out to Esther Lin on the graphics. I am Mike Heck. We'll see you back here with a lot to discuss post-UFC-21, leading into that July 15th card right here on Between the Links. You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Thank you.