MMA Fighting - Between the Links: Episode 9 | Robert Whittaker Wins, Dan Hardy vs. Herb Dean, Bellator 242

Episode Date: July 28, 2020

Check out episode 9 of Between the Links as Mike Heck moderates the matchup between MMA Fighting's Alex K. Lee and Jed Meshew discussing Robert Whittaker's win over Darren Till in the UFC on ESPN 14 main event, Dan Hardy and Herb Dean's confrontation, grading Bellator's return this past Friday, a look ahead to the UFC's return to Las Vegas on Saturday night, and more. Follow Mike Heck: @MikeHeck_JR Follow Alexander K. Lee: @AlexanderKLee Jed Meshew: @JedKMeshew Subscribe: http://goo.gl/dYpsgH Check out our full video catalog: http://goo.gl/u8VvLi Visit our playlists: http://goo.gl/eFhsvM Like MMAF on Facebook: http://goo.gl/uhdg7Z Follow on Twitter: http://goo.gl/nOATUI Read More: http://www.mmafighting.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. Welcome to Between the Links, your host, Mike Heck. Thank you, Esther Lynn, for another fantastic introduction as we welcome you to a brand new episode of Between the Links here on MMAFighting.com. We have a lot to discuss. As always, Bellator returned on Friday night. The UFC wrapped up their fight island slate of events on Saturday night,

and there was a lot to come out of that event. And, of course, the UFC is back in Las Vegas. This Saturday, Contender Series is about to kick off next week. So there's a lot going on in the sport. So let's just get right into this thing. Let's introduce the panel. First, the Challenger. He's been talking some trash throughout the week,

the self-proclaimed king of hot takes from MMAfighting.com. Mr. Jed Michoud makes his between the league's debut. How are you, Jed? I am doing fantastic because Alex K. Lee, he's going down. You guys have been hiding him. You've been protecting your champion. no more, the king is here, long may he reign. I love it.

Introducing the man who holds the most coveted title in all of MMA media, the reigning, defending, undisputed between the links champion. Also from MMAfighting.com, Mr. Alex K. Lee. It's been a minute, sir. I feel like we do this, have these conversations like every day of the week at this point. How are you? Look at this face right here. All right, you see this expression here.

This is my expression when I am put into the ring with a chance. with a man who does not care about rules. He does not care about morals. He will do anything to win. So I hope the viewers appreciate what's about to happen here. I will defend my title, but I know I will walk out lesser than I was before, even if I am victorious.

Wow, setting the table beautifully. And if you are new to the program, I'm not going over the rules. So head back in the archives to figure out how this works. But I think you'll pick it up pretty quickly if this is the first time you're checking it out. But let's start with Saturday nights, main event in the Octagon, UFC on ESPN 14. Robert Whitaker gets a unanimous decision win over

Darren Till. Jed, you won the blind draw this week, so we're going to begin with you. There were a lot of questions about Robert Whitaker heading into this fight. He had the two wars with the All Romero. The second fight, he took just an incredible amount of damage, had a lot of injuries and crazy things that have happened along the way, gets knocked up by Israel Addisina in October. So there were some concerns about him coming back. People were wondering if he's still the same guy who won and defended the middleweight title. Did that performance from Robert Whitaker in a very competitive fight, did that lead you to believe that he could get back to the topist division once again and regain that

title? I'm going to couch here. I'm going to give you two answers. One, I do think that performance showed us something. It showed us something important. And that's, he's not done yet. Yol Romero, my pick, I've made no bones about it. I think he has been the best middleweight in the world for quite some time until Israel.

Adisina came on. I think that 50 minutes that they fought could really have affected Robert Whitaker, but we showed that he can take a punch. He took that elbow in the first round. Came back totally fine. However, Bobby Knuckles didn't get in the title back. That's not a knock on him. I think he's one of the best fighters in the world.

Israel Adisina is just better. Even if you want to take Bobby Knuckles at his word and say, yeah, you know, maybe that wasn't your best effort you gave him. You still got knocked out in two. almost one, do it again. Maybe you see the final bell, but at the end, last style bender's still going to hold the belt. So, you know, it's not a me versus AK situation where he can come back and, you know, win

the title. This is just a better guy. And that's me. I'm the Israel Odissania of this program. And that's just where we are. Wow. AK, shots fired right away. What do you think?

I hate to say it because I am somewhat in agreement that I don't know if there's a scenario where he beats Adisnia. It's just stylistically and how good a Disney is, it's not great for Whitaker. But the question was, is he, you know, did he look like ready to, like he could win the title again? And pardon my language, but you are gosh darn right that I think Whitaker is backing that. Because because, let's say Costa proves to be the foil for Addisnia, again, I think I would pick a dissonia. But the guy with Costa's power, you never know. I could definitely see Whitaker beating Costa.

You know, we know I'm amazed about matchups, right? So depending on how things check out with that fight, Jared Kennanier getting the next title shot, I would pick what I would like Whitaker's chances against him as well. So did he show enough? Yeah, we saw vintage Whitaker. We saw all the stuff we know from Whitaker. Toughness got knocked down in round one and came back to put on a very strong performance. Patience, which we did not see in the Adisinae fight, although a lot of people were disappointed in that. So we saw the patience.

We saw him very technical and against an against opponent who could match him in that aspect. So that was important to see. We didn't see maybe quite the power where we like to see. I think he did have a knockdown, which was good. And the other thing we saw was that mindset because he'd been off for so long and publicly spoke about being burnt out. And he was just so, so a positive pre-fight and post-fight and so great to watch. So mentality-wise, I think he's back to.

So again, I'm not saying he would be a distant yet if they fought tomorrow. But do I think he could win a title again if the cards fell the right way? Yeah, his skills are right there. And that performance convinced me. I thought he fought a very smart fight. it seemed like he was able to figure out Darren Till's game pretty quickly and that led to a win. So let me ask you this, A.K., because I feel like in a way, both guys stock rose in that fight. Like, this was Darren Till's second fight at 185 pounds.

He did beat Calvin Gasolm. Wasn't the wildest fight of all time. But rather than slowly move up the rankings after the Gasolm fight, build himself up in this division, he went for one of the toughest fights out there and Robert Whitaker. So in the grand scheme of things, AK, who stock rose? rose more in that fight. And maybe I'll present it this way. Who are fans clamoring to see again more after Saturday night?

Robert Whitaker or Darren Till. I still think it's Whitaker. I thought Till accommodating himself very well for sure. He proved a lot of people. I think he proved a lot of people that, like you said, like he deserves to be here. There was like a little bit of controversy over the Gasland fight, but not much. I think most people thought he won. But it also wasn't a super dominant performance.

So I don't think people would argue against that either. Even though he said, I think he said he easily beat Gaslam. which I don't know how accurate that is. But I think people want to see Bo. I think the stock went up for both, but I'll go with, I'll go with Witterer because he definitely needed the win to show that, as we discuss, he's still of that caliber. That something wasn't lost in the Disney fight and wasn't completely lost in the two in the two Vermero fights. So he was already a fan favorite before. You know, people love the Reaper.

And I think he's just a little bit ahead of Till as far as to who do people want to see fight again. I'll go with Whitaker. Chad, your thoughts. I mean, they say a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and again, and I guess AK found one, because he's correct. It's definitely Whitaker here. I mean, look, God love Darren Till. He's fun on the mic. He's an interesting character with a lot of big personality.

But I think a thing that has slid under the radar here is he's not much fun to watch fight. He is fun at the moment that he gets the big knockdown or gets the finish. But he is very slow-paced. He does not throw a lot of strikes. And in that fight with Whitaker just this past weekend, you saw. I think he ended up throwing something like two, two and a half strikes per minute. That's just not. And while he does throw with power, it's not the kind of haymakers that a casual fan can even just, you know, grab onto him.

Like, yeah, he's swinging for it. He's not that much fun to watch. The thing that draws is that he does have a huge personality and he does get those finishes. But if he's not getting them, then you're not going to be left thinking, man, I really want to see Darren Till fight again. I don't think you're thinking that too much with Robert Whitaker here either, if we're being honest. I mean, it was a good performance, tactical, smart, but that's not the kind of performance that's going to get people to stand up and notice. And I know this in part because I watched that event with a bunch of friends of mine over the weekend who aren't into fighting. It's not their thing.

And the things they took away were Jamev, the Trinaldo knockout, not, man, Robert Whitaker. So he's going to get a bit of a boost because people do love Bobby Knuckles and just wanted to see. him get back in the win column. And so we'll get a little bit more than Till in that regard. But I don't think this fight really made either person jump out as somebody that people are dying to see again. In the end, middleweight is a very interesting division. Adisina versus Costa has got to be a great fight. The build to it should be a lot of fun.

But in terms of this particular matchup right here on BTL, the point is going to go to the challenger. Jed Michoud, he is on the board. You've used up, hold on. There was definitely a low blow in that round. He definitely more than glanced the cup. That's your one. Jed, that's your one low blow.

You've got your warning. You've got your warning. Have you watched fighting? I get like three of those before. No, no, no. Watch just, I'm just saying. Watch it. Watch those kicks.

They're a little low. They're a little low. The next time the hands are coming out like this. Mike, the fingers are extended. The fingers are clearly extended. We still have three more regulation questions of this ladies and John. We ain't going to meet them. That's it.

Let's move ahead to probably, this might be the biggest story to come out of Saturday Night's event on Fire Island. We saw Francisco Trinaldo, Jai Herbert, who fell, like, just even thinking about the way he fell down. It was pretty scary the way he hit the mat. And Trinaldo stands over his opponent, waiting for Herb Dean to stop the fight. Herb Dean doesn't stop the fight. So Trinaldo had to land more shots before the fight was eventually waved off. And during all this, Dan Hardy is screaming for Herb Dean to stop the fight. this fight and him and Herb had words after which you've all seen the videos by now of Herb Dean

and Dan Hardy having their very interesting conversation. Both guys have made statements since and the UFC is apparently going to be investigating this incident. So A.K., we're going to start with you here. You saw it all unfold on Saturday night. You've seen both statements from Dean and Hardy. Who is right in your opinion? It's a bit harsh to say someone was right. Oh, sorry, is my video on? So you hear me? I can hear it, yeah. Okay. It's a bit harsh to say if either man was right or wrong.

And I have a feeling, Jedder, I might be somewhat on the same page on this one. So it's just going to come between who can yell louder between us. But I am fully on Team Hardy here. I think he was right about the stoppage. I think his behavior, while yes, somewhat unprofessional, was also appropriate given what happened. The discussion after, I guess we don't know the details of, but I have no. issue with them if they had to have a little tete-a-tete, you know, right after.

I believe, I don't know if Hurt, if Erb went over to him or if Hardy beckoned him to come over, but there was a face-to-face discussion after. And then, of course, the responses afterwards on social media, which that was fine, fine on both ends. So, no, I'm all for Team Hardy. Look, I understand. I understand people are saying it's not his place to necessarily call a fight,

and it's amplified so much now that there's no crowd. You know, guys, we hear announcer scream stuff all the time, But once an announcer scream, something like, stop the fight in an empty arena, it is kind of jarring. And you have to imagine Herb heard it and Herb, Herb, Herb heard it and was able to, I filtered out, obviously, or actively ignore it. We don't know if you heard it and then said, no, no, I'm not letting that decide what's happening here. So, no, I thought Hardy was fine because, look, and I'll be running about this a bit more for the site. But the UFC loves it when they're commentators who are a fighter, you know, their fighters, have these crazy reactions to knockouts like, oh, they get out of their chair. What a cool thing to share on social

media. But guess what? There's another side to it too. You don't just get those funny, cute reactions. You got to take these real reactions too. And that's what you're paying them for. And that's what Hardy gave them. So was it unprofessional by, I don't know, school journalism broadcasting standards? Maybe. But by UFC and professional sports standards, no, it was great. Jed, what do you think? Because maybe the question is who was right? Maybe who was more right? because I think you can make arguments for both guys. I mean, both men are definitely in the wrong here. I think AK honestly did touch on a lot of the salient points here.

Dan Hardy, you know, that is just a lot of that's a visceral reaction of what's going on. How many times have we heard Joe Rogan in the booth say, oh, stop the fight, stop the fight. Totally fair. And in that instance, yeah, fight should have been stopped. So I guess we can start right there. Herb Dean's defense of his stoppage is categorically insane. I know that Alex wants to say, hey, it might be too harsh to say, but no, that's just an insane argument. Like, I think Herdean has been a good ref for a very long time, whether he's still a good ref that's up for a lot of argumentation.

By and large, I do think he mostly makes good calls. That's a really bad call objectively. Everyone can see it and him doubling down on that. It just puts him further in the wrong. He needs to just own up, raise his hand, say, yeah, you know, I miss that one. And then he can say it was a little bit difficult because of Dan Hardy yelling and these other sorts of things. But I made a mistake. I'm going to own that.

He didn't choose to do that and that's wrong. However, his comments about Hardy, they have some grounding. I think you can't knock Dan for his immediate reaction of saying, stop the fight, stop the fight, because I think everyone with a bit of empathy was thinking that while they were watching it. But him, you know, jump into the top of the cage and calling out Herb and sort of having that tete-a-tete with him right. there, that feels like that's definitely a bridge too far. And is that something Dan Hardy would have done if it's, you know, a fighter he has no real relationship with, doesn't know at all, in an arena filled with fans?

I think probably not. I think the circumstances made him a little more attuned to what was going on and then he wanted to act on that. And his actions there are wrong as well. So nobody wins. Everybody's a loser here, especially as we're all forgetting, especially Guy Herbert, who took four unnecessary. shots from a man-beast name Francisco Chernolo.

Jen, let me go back to you because you made an interesting point, and you also wrote up Monday's morning report for the site, and legendary referee John McCarthy waited on the situation and said that Herb Dean was in a can't-win scenario, even throughout the notion that, and you alluded to this yourself, that part of the reason Hardy was upset with the situation was because Herbert is from England, there's a relationship there. And there was, I don't know, you probably saw this yourself. There was a lot of criticism of Hardy's. commentary throughout the night on social media when it came to fights that involved some of the English fighters. So perhaps some bias, perhaps. But what did you make of John's statement on the

matter? I, again, nobody wins. John's statement, I wrote this morning and he said, you know, Herb Dean was in a can't win situation. I think the only person who was in a can't win was Jai Herbert because he physically could not win, given what Maserun Duba had just done to him. and I don't know why Big John jumping in and defending her because to me this seems incredibly obvious. I recognize that in real time things are a lot harder. And, you know, that's one of those situations where I'd be willing to, you know, forgive and forget Herb Dean. Bad stoppages happen in MMA. It's a really difficult job.

Like being an MMA referee, it's being a referee in any sport. It's a thankless job. If you do your job super well, no one will give you credit. and if you ever screw up, you are going to be the talk of the town. So I understand that, you know, Herb Dean is put in a bad spot by nature of his job. But how does anyone think that stoppage is good? I just don't get it. He's not, his legs aren't moving.

Yes, his arms are across his face. But if I get knocked unconscious and my arms flop in front of my face, that's not an intelligent defense. Herb Dean's defense of his stoppage was not an intelligent defense. Everyone loses. No one wins. Sorry, A.K., I think that that. That's totally fine to be harsh right now. All right, A.K., John McCarthy comes out, and I think even on Saturday night on the

Post show, we all were like, what's John McCarthy going to say about all this? He has spoke at his piece. What did you make of McCarthy's comments? Well, you know, the thing I like about Big John is he's not going to be afraid to criticize referees. I remember when I spoke to him about Dan Mergliazza with the stuff with Mechlevenom Page, with MVP, and he was very frank about kind of how Big Dan handles his business, things like that. So I wasn't surprised to see, if I recall that,

He was mostly defensive of herb. Is that right? Yes. Yeah, and that doesn't surprise me. I disagree kind of with his assessment. He kind of took that tack of, you know, Herb's closest and kind of offended sort of what Herb said, like the sign that's the leg up.

I find very because, sorry. This is the truck. The trucks, the trucks, the trucks, the truck's, timing in and I'm just going to keep a freeze frame on Alex right now. So Alex, are you frozen right now? This is how you look. It's a good look if it's how you look, okay.

All right. Sorry, guys. Sorry, sorry, sorry. I don't know. What is going on? It is extra bad this week. Oh, gosh. I'm not going to lie.

I've also been like kind of just pulling my motor milk because I don't want to deal with Jed. But I was as I was. As I was just saying that I'm not surprised Big John stood up for, even though he is pretty frank with his assessment of other officials, I'm not surprised that he stood up for Ir, but of course, they're friends. And also, like we said, he's a veteran, you know, for whatever reason, Err keeps getting high-profile gigs. He also got the main event.

Let's not forget he was the official in the main event on Saturday. So there's a respect there. And they seem to be willing to overlook some of these more egregious late and early stoppages that he has on his record. So I don't know. I didn't love McCarthy's assessment because I think I was saying, he backed up the hands up as a defense, leg up as an intelligence defense, which like, again, anyone watching the clip only by the most literal definition of having those limbs up was he defending himself.

But Jedd or I could be in there with a fighter cowering on the ground with my hand up. I'm clearly not intelligently defending myself. And anyone who wants the clip will see Trinaldo literally just grabs Herbert's right left arm and very gently lowers it. There's no resistance. There's no tension. And then unfortunately, had to deliver those two or three punches after.

So I didn't mind Big John's defense, but I feel like I'm not sure if you had the best read of the situation. I'm not really sure what's going to come out of this, quote unquote, investigation from the UFC. I'm kind of curious to see what comes out of it, but it is an interesting story.

Nonetheless, the point goes to, and this is kind of one of those questions where it just kind of paid to go first. So AK is on the board. Jed had some great arguments, made this pretty interesting. But let's move ahead to the question I'm most excited about.

Bellator got back to action on Friday night with Bellator 242. Sergio Pettis defeats Ricky Bondejas in the main event. Jason Jackson defeats Jordan Meehan and the co-main event. But the big story was Aaron Pico's first round submission win over Solo Hatley Jr. Jed, we're going to start with you. And listen, Bellator got their first card back on the books. Was it the greatest card on paper? No.

Was it the greatest card in execution? No, but they did what they could with what was available. With all that in mind, what would you grade their first efforts in this COVID-19 era? Look, all due respect to AK, that's a championship performance, lost the first round, comes back, puts one on the board. This is where I'm going to really start to step away from him because I think I may have written more about Bellator than anyone else on this site. I've done most of their event coverage for at this point a couple of years. I know a lot about them and I'm going to go ahead and just not really talk about Bellator in this regard

because I would give them a C I mean at the end of the day the Bellator event was totally fine it's good to see Sergio Pettis kind of be where they want him to be they're trying obviously to get him a belt and now he's one step closer you know all due respect to Ricky Bandejas good fighter Sergio Pettis is the guy that they clearly would like to set up to be a star for their promotion and that makes sense

so that's good they kind of of succeeded on that. You know, Aaron Pico got another win. Jason Jackson, who I like a lot, ended up picking up a W as well. The Taiwan Claxton upset, maybe that's something to talk about. But realistically,

this event was sort of just the same as any other Bellator Friday Night card. You know, I personally would have loved to see them maybe do something a little more different, a little more interesting. That's where Bellator has always succeeded for me. I know last week's between the links, There was some talk about what they could do with the fight, fight sphere and kind of this stuff

and how the things that they do maybe don't always hit, but are at least interesting and fun. The quarterfinal featherweight draft tournament thing, that was fun and interesting. And I would have liked to see Scott Koker go to the lab and come back with something high production, high level of interest or interesting. And they didn't really do that. And that's where Bellator is its weakest. It can't meet the UFC head-to-head and just good old fair. fashion, you know, fight matching.

It eats around the edges. It can do fun things. It can do legends, fights, and stuff like that. And so to me, the Bellator event rang even more hollow or just wasn't as good as normal because the best Bellator fight of the weekend was in the UFC. It was Shogunhua versus Little Nog three. That is a classic Bellator fight that just happened to occur under the UFC banner. And so I think all things considered it.

It was a successful weekend for Bellator and accomplishing what they wanted to do kind of long term. But as far as generating interest or being even on brand, I just feel like they kind of missed. They had an opportunity to come back big and they sort of came back with a whimper. AK, what do you think? Jed gave it to C. What do you giving it? Dang. I'm probably just a more generous creator in general. But I mean, just by the nature of being back on the air, I've got to give them at least a B minus, you know. The student tried.

I've got to give them a little more love than that. I also think, I do agree production-wise. I wish we could have seen a little more. The curtain-off thing looked kind of cool, especially with the championship banners they always have. There was kind of a nice contrast there, so it kind of fit the aesthetic they already have. And maybe it's something though,

I guess they can't do in the future when they actually have people back. But I like the idea. You know, we always say we wish the U.S. would do different stuff. And at least they kind of tweak the look, but it wasn't anything dramatic. But yeah, just by the nature of being back, having testing,

you know, I know they follow on similar protocol to the UFC and what other sporting organizations have tried to do. So that's good. I mean, that's good. Results-wise, it was a mixed bag for sure. I mean, Sergio, the main events,

yes, it's good to have a recent signing, a recent major signing. Well, of course, Sergio Pettis, but also you sacrifice kind of a homegrown guy to do that. So, you know, plus, and minus there. Jason Jackson winning was huge. That's exactly

kind of got a push. Taiwan Claxton still struggling, unfortunately, and against a guy who missed weight. So that's the kind of, definitely I would call that undesirable and the first round finish. I mean, the guy is excitement every time, win or lose. So it was a mixed bag of results in storyline-wise. I think they've kind of cleared out the bantam weight title

picture, which is exciting. So I have to go to be mine. It's just on the fact that they're back on the air. And they got some of the fighters that I think they want to push, putting out some really great performances. Jet, I'm going to go back to you. Maybe AK's dial-up internet can can fire back up at a ferocious pace. But you mentioned it from an execution standpoint, you feel like it was just like any other Bellator card. It was a whimper, so to speak. What do they need to do better moving forward

heading into that August 7th event? They just need to be creative. I mean, I think they had two ways to go that would have been interesting or fun, and they chose not to do either. Now, one of them maybe is just a logistics thing. I think they took this big time gap off. I would have loved to see Scott Coker say, you know, hey, I know we took time off, but when we come back, we're coming back with a bang. Here's what we're going to do. We're going to frontload a card with two championship fights or big names. And instead, they just, again, put forth the same kind of card. Hey, here's a good headliner that matters to us promotionally and the undercard we're going to fill it up with guys, we're trying to build, prospects we're trying to build in a long-term investment strategy.

that's solid, you know, getting Aaron Pico another fight where, hey, Aaron Pico uses wrestling everybody, that's great. But, you know, past that, that's, there's not a buzz. No one's coming out of that weekend thinking, yeah, Bellator MMA is the thing. So if they weren't going to, you know, front load a big card like that, I would have really liked them see, like to have seen them go into the other end of things. And this might be tougher to pull off, you know, but doing high-end production on something. You know, the fight sphere idea, I still don't know if I understand entirely what that means or what their vision for it is. It feels like it's just a response to Fight Island, but why are you overthinking it? Like, Fight Island is trademarked and you can't

steal that. You can do Fight Peninsula or something, you know, equally as ridiculous. It's clearly biting the UFC style and then twisting the knife a little bit by actually doing something good. You saw with Fight Island, the UFC put together some stuff. They did the octagon on the beach, but really it was just the same old dog and pony show. Whereas instead, in the video game, you're fighting in the Kumatei in UFC

4. I would have loved to see Bellator. Scott Coker just, yeah, we don't have Fight Island. We've got Fight Peninsula and then actually make it look interesting and cool and do preloaded graphics that are different and just kind of bent around that. Again, like I said, they can't

go head to head with the UFC as far as matchmaking great fights. They can do some of that. They have good fighters. Douglas Lima is maybe the best welterweight on the planet who can say. But where they succeed is eating around the edges, picking up the crumbs, the UFC is going to leave because they are a monolith. They're just going to do the same thing. And I would have loved to see them, you know, take a little bit more risk, use more creativity, have more fun with it because at the end of the day, MMA is supposed to be fun. And that, you know, good for them to get back in business. AK has got a point there. but I would have liked to see more.

A.K., to be fair, Bellator did try to get a title fight on that card with Archeleta and Mix. They revealed on the broadcast that there was a positive COVID-19 test for Arturleta, so that fight didn't happen. They're hoping to book that one in September, but this is still what they had to do. They had Bandejas and Pettis. They had Pico, they had Jackson,

but this is pretty much the best they could come up with on such short time. And I think Jen made a great point because at least with the Fight Island thing, like the buildup to Fight Island was better than the execution itself, like the intrigue, the questions we all had about it. Like, what's it going to look like? Is there going to be Octagon in the beach? Is Dana White going to have a Hawaiian shirt on with Tiki Torchers surrounding him overlooking the Octagon? And it turns out we just got like what it was. Bellator gave us no time to prepare. They're like, we're going to have this event next week.

There's going to be a fight spear. And then once it was executed, like it didn't even give us time to. sort of picture what it could be before they executed it. So what do they need to do better heading into this August 7th card and these upcoming events to put them back on the map that Bellator is the legit number two company that everyone needs to tune in on for Paramount TV every three, four weeks? That's for me, right, Mike? Correct.

All right. Well, like you said, promotion is a huge part of it. I don't know if I agree with Jed's assessment that they need to engage in dirty pool. I mean, it doesn't surprise me, given who the idea is coming from, but Fight Peninsula. I mean, I do think it would be cool if some promotion did like a bash of the beach type thing and had the sand and the, you know, the lifeguard sitting on deck chairs and so like that. Very sick. But I don't think Bell attorney needs to go there yet. I think just stay the course.

I know that's the most unsexy answer that someone can give, but they just got back on. Now, they shouldn't be doing stuff, like you said, announcing events like two. I felt like less, maybe it was two weeks. It felt like less than two weeks before they said, hey, here's the card. And all of us were just kind of like, did anyone, I know we're like asking other reporters, did anyone have a scoop on this? Did anyone hear this? And like, no, it just came out, which is very abnormal.

You know, normally you hear some sort of rumbling of some of the fights and there was just nothing. So I'm not, I, promotion is a thing. I don't know if I'm saying this is to start maybe leaking these plans a little more to us. Maybe I'm just being selfish and I want to scoop. But, yeah, find other ways to advertise beyond just an official press release two weeks before because that's insane. That's insane. There's no way people, I guarantee so many people didn't even know that Beltor had an event last Friday, as terrible as that sounds. I think your casual MMA fan just zero clue. So got up that marketing somehow. And yet they scored a B.

Minus. Minus is a real. All right? For situations like this. Just saying, nobody knew it happened, but it gets a B. Just throwing it out there. B minus. B minus. A minus. A minus. I a friendly B-minus. All right. Well, at the end of the day, both had great answers. I got to give it to Jed, mostly because of A-K's Wi-Fi situation,

but I can't go with the B-minus with the AK. I know, like, my opinion doesn't matter here, but Jed made some great points. He gets the point as we head into potentially the final question of the game. AK needs this one. The UFC returns home. Fight Island is, at least this time around,

a thing of the past. They're back in vain. Vegas this Saturday with an event at the UFC Apex, headlines by Derek Brunson and Edmund Shabazian. And of course, the main event is fascinating, but you know me, A.K., I like to dig a little bit deeper outside of the main event. And let's be honest here, you have a little bit of an advantage here going first, potentially, because if you look at this card, I think there's one under the radar fight that really sticks out to everybody. But what fight do you have circled outside of the main event, not just from a fascination perspective, but could really steal the show?

on Saturday night. Yeah, I'm going to go with the obvious answer. And it's so obvious that I don't even know if it is flying under the writer. Because every time this guy fights, man, he is must watch. And so is his opponent, people who aren't familiar. But Vicente, Luka, Randy Brown, is just going to be insane. I mean, Lucke already in whatever, too, it has 10 UFC fights has just, he is a must-see guy. Lots of finishes, great striking, great all-around game.

You know something cool is going to happen when this guy steps in the cage. He'll fight anyone. He'll fight veterans. He'll fight short notice guys. He does not care. He's a gamer of the highest order. UFC loves him. And Randy Brown, again, I don't know if people remember how well this guy's been doing.

You know, there was that's, the most publicity he probably got was kind of the Mickey Gall, looking for a fight title, which was cute, but kind of overshadows how strong this guy actually is as a prospect. He did suffer that kind of weird loss to Nico Price, but back-to-back wins. Worley Alvis, Brian Barbarina finishes, by the way, for anyone who doesn't remember. So, I mean, so I'm in there with Luke A. Again, I almost don't even think this is under the radar. I think this easily has to be the second most highly anticipated fight of the night and might have even been more anticipated in the original main event of Holly Home and Irene Aldana. I'm not sure. Jed, what do you think? I got to be honest. I'm a little surprised by AK's answer. I like, I like the fight. I didn't think this is the obvious like this could steal the show fight, though.

Really? Because when you were saying that preamble, I was like, yeah, we're all of the same opinion. And AK is going to take the conservative smart pick, and he's going to try and get back in the wing column so we can go to a tiebreaker question. And then he did that because, yeah, to me, obviously, Vincenti Lukai is like one of the five most exciting fighters in the sport right now. And Randy Brown is also a pretty fun fighter. And so that's just going to be a banger.

But, I mean, it's not going to steal the show, because how do you steal a show when people are expecting you to do it? That's not coming out of the rafters. That's, you know, that's expected. Like, it's expected for me to take this belt from AK. So, no one will be shocked. No one will be surprised. We'll have fun because it's a fun fight.

But, I mean, I'm now trying to think what you think the under-the-radar fight is. I know the co-main event here is obviously pretty short notice, but a really good fight that's going to determine the next title challenger for that, for that division there. But I'm going to go out of left field. I'm going to get real weird with you. I'm going for a prelim bout, and it's a bout that we'll sing to the heartstrings of both me and Alex Lee, and he's then going to have to recognize that I've defeated him with his own game,

and that is Ed Herman versus Gerald Mearschart. Ed Herman and Gerald Mearschart is going to be a bad fight, and it's going to be hilariously fun. There's the eye poke. There's the eye poke, guys. Just a lobo right there. Second one. Light and heavyweight is

frequently a disaster and this fight totally has the ability to do that. Gerald Mierschart and Ed Herman are both slow kind of bad athletes with good technical skills and I would argue that they're both probably I mean Ed Herman is definitely past his problem Gerald Miershard is probably not as good a fighter as he's ever been

and this is just going to be a fun slob knocker they're going to get into weird scrambles because Gerald Mearshard is obviously a great grappler. And Ed Herman is no slouch on the ground. It's going to be a slow slug fest on the feet, like an old school heavyweight, awful brawl where they're both gassed after four and a half minutes. And then the grappling is just going to be super fun and ridiculous.

So no one is talking about this fight. I'm really looking forward to it because I think it's just going to be a really good time. I recognize that, you know, Luke A. Randy Brown, I think that is the highlight of this card, the co-meet event should honestly be the main event. I know that that's probably not happening in some part just because of the short-noticed nature of it.

But I believe the main event isn't even five rounds because of the short-noticed nature. So they could swap that. And I think I'd be happy with that. I don't know how everybody else would feel. But, I mean, you know, Brunson is not, whoever wins the main event's not getting a title shot off that, whereas the co-main event winner is. So I do think maybe that should be the top seed. but yeah, Underdog Sleeper Pick, give me Ed Herman, Gerald Mearshart for all the walls.

Wow. Mike, I am hitting the rebuttal button. I don't know. I know this button doesn't work anymore. I'm hitting the traditional between the links rebuttal button for fans who remember how this show once worked. This once proud show worked for Jed Mishu came along. Jed, you didn't even pick the weirdest fight on the freelance.

I'm a little disappointed. How could you go with two fake middleweights in Ed Herman and Gerald Mierrecher. When we have two real middleweights, two weirdo middleweights, Eric Spicely and Marcus Perez earlier on the card. Malucco and Eric Spicely, that's going to be a gaggle of limbs and weirdness and maybe subpar cardio and someone's definitely getting hit in the junk at some point. I thought that's where you were going with it because that I think is the deepest bizarro cut that we can go with on Saturday. See, no, because that fight is a true middleweight fight, but the middliest middleweight fight on the card is a light heavy. weight fight. Everybody knows this. It's definitely Herman Mearshard. That is going to be, that's not a possibility of people gassing. They're going to be spent at seven minutes. Just going to be the case.

I actually thought Bobby Green versus Lando Bonato would be. The problem there is a Bobby, oh, that's where you meant. We didn't go in that draft. It's okay. This is better, by the way. I heard middley of middle weights at light heavyweight in a sentence on this show. Yeah. The problem with Bobby Green, Landauvinata, Land of Vanada is obviously super fun. Bobby Green's super not. So he's like really good and a very strong,

defensively solid technician. And Landauvinata might do some fun spinning stuff, but he also just won't miss or like won't hit any of that because Bobby Green won't be around for it. And that fight probably, I think that fight looks a lot more interesting on paper than it does an actuality, whereas Herman Mearschart looks like a travesty on paper and is going to be delightful in actuality.

There's a lot of, there's a lot of, if they did the old, you know, UFC naming events thing, I think this one would be called shenanigans. I think there's a lot of room for shenanigans. Kevin Holland is also fighting by the video. I mean, Kevin Holland. And that guy's always up to something in the middle of his fights, after his fights. So, man, this is a weird one in the best possible way, I think. Man, all right, real quick, because I feel like we should at least touch on the main event.

There is one question that I do have. He's, most of the chatter we've seen when it comes to this middleweight fight, an actual middleweight fight, is, you know, what happens if Edmund Schabezian beats Derek Brunson? Like, he's a guy that most people are targeting as a future world champion. And there seems to be, at least from what I've seen, a lot of people counting Derek Brunson out of this fight, despite living in these moments many of time, derailing a fair amount. of hype trains along the way. What happens if Derek Brunson wins on Saturday night, Jed? I honestly, I don't know. I'm not really anticipating him to win.

I am, you know, call me a bandwagoner. I definitely think Chabasian is going to keep that rise right on up to the top. I don't know if he actually, you know, climbs the mountain because as we spoke earlier, I think Israel is the best 185 are in the world. But I do think those two are on a collision course at some point. in the future. If Brunson wins, it's interesting, man, because he'll have three in a row. I mean, that's

a pretty good run in a good division and not over, you know, slouches. Elias Diodoro and Ian Heinrich are obviously pretty good fighters respected. And much like Brunson, I think you're right. People are overlooking him. He probably doesn't get the respect he deserves from fans,

but I know fighters do respect what he can do in the cage. I think, honestly, whoever wins this sort of feels like they're just destined to match up with Jack Hermanson, and then that person will end up getting a title fight because Robert Whitaker just got a win, but he's not really in consideration after the Addis in your fight. Maybe if Paulo Costa wins, they throw Whitaker back in there. But I know Canaanier is also at the top of that kind of conversation, but it feels like everybody outside of Costa is one win away. And so

I think whoever wins this Brunson or Shabazi, and I think they're just going to get Hermanson as a title eliminator. And I mean, great. That's a winnable fight for Brunson, and he could finally climb that mountain and get up. And, you know, it'd be a heck of a scout for him to pick up Shabasian right now. Just finally, I do agree with you. Just I'll wrap up here,

but I agree that he has in general done a good job of kind of beating some hype trains. But he's also fallen to the best fighters he's faced. And I think Shabasian is kind of in that tier. So we'll see what happens though. What do you think, A.K., what if Derek Brunson goes in there and breaks hearts all over the world? I think in classic Brunson fashion, look, he pushes that rock right back up to the top of that hill, and we get him another ranked opponent. Maybe a rematch against either the Uriah Hall or Yuel Romero winner, probably he'd be more inclined to want to fight Romero again as opposed to Hall, of course, because he beat Hall.

And the Romero fight is so much further back that he can make a very strong argument that, you know, I'm a different fighter. He's a different fighter. No one wants to fight you all Romero. No, Derek Brunson would. No one wants to, but Derek Brunson would if it meant taking his spot in the rankings wherever Romero is now at this point. So, no, I think he deserves

a top 10 guy again, because this will be his third straight win, I believe, especially if he beats a prospect like Shabazian, and he'll, again, he gets another chance to try to dispel that narrative that he can't win the big one, right? I don't know how many times you can push that narrative, but it's there with Derek Brunson,

and he kind of has to own it until he doesn't anymore, right? So I think he's worthy of a top 10 guy. I know it's fun to keep to kind of look at him as just a glorified gatekeeper. But you never know when these guys are going to break through. So he's a little bit up there in age. But this is probably his last chance this year or next year to get anywhere near a title shot. So yeah, I could see him rematching an old foe or actually with Till out of the possibly out of the picture with some work on his knee.

It's a great made event. Some fun fights on the card for sure. I think you guys sold this card better than anybody just based on your under the radar picks for this card. But in the end, the point is going to go to the champ, AK. We're going to head to the knockout round. You sold me so well on Mearsharst v. Herman, too, Jed. But I had to go with AK here. I'm cut.

Again, it's probably one of those situations. But we're going to move to the knocker round. One final question decides it all for the whole kitten caboodle. Each of these combats will have 60 seconds to answer this question. They have no idea what that question is. After both gentlemen have the chance to answer, we will throw it to the truck, to the Honorable Judge E. Casey Liden, and he will render the final decision, A.K., since you are the champion, you get the choice of going first or second. You went first last week. It was a tough

ask question. It was more about who collapsed less in those 60 seconds as opposed to who answered the question best. What would you like to do? Michael, as you know, last week was a disaster. And I chose to go first, which was probably the worst possible thing I could have done. But as you know, I never learned anything. And I am going first. Again, give me the question. Wow. All right. I respect it.

Bad choice. Going to cost you. What could go wrong twice? It can't go wrong twice. Think about it. Think about it. All right. Here's the question.

Because this has been a crazy year for everybody. For all of us, for the UFC, for the sport in general. However, the UFC has moved forward with a lot of cards, a lot of fights, paper views, etc. A.K., we are approaching August. So my question is, through seven full months of action in 2020. Who is right now the 2020 fighter of the year and why? 60 seconds on the clock, go.

Oh, my goodness. What a question that, again, normally I would require a lot of research. The clock is ticking. I'm just building up trauma at this point. Gosh, if I had to go, are we allowed to project ahead? How are you... That was so far. Yeah.

You've reached a 20 seconds thinking about it. No, it's fine. Look, I like Kamar Uspin. All right. I know that the Jorge Mazzvedal match was more about Mazzvedal than it was about Uzman. But look, there's all these storylines swirling around Uzman with like Kobe Compton rivalry, you know, beating Woodley last time and then fighting Mazadol. This guy is on his way, I think, to becoming one of the greatest welter rates of all time.

And not just based on his record and who he's beaten. When you watch him, he's really revealing a lot. about just what a great fighter he is. So I have to give him all the credit in the world for that because he keeps saying, I'm Canadian. I hate, I hesitate to call anyone the next GSP. But if anyone is on their way to becoming the next GSP, man, it might be Usman.

All right. Alex K. Lee going with Kamara Usman maybe in a future sense. Jed, you got a minute to ponder this question. What do you think? Who is the 2020 fighter of the year to this point? I may take 30 seconds just to be. Basque and Alex handing me the win. I mean, I don't know about you guys.

I personally would not pick my fighter of the year as a guy who gave a largely just completely panned performance in what was a win and a tactical performance, but he didn't win no fans. However, I'm going to go with the guy he's fighting next because if the year stops today, Gilbert Burns has wins over Demia Maya and Tyrone Woodley. I mean, if you're just talking about what you've accomplished, that's it. I do think maybe there's an outside argument, honestly, for Kamsat, Chimiev, just because of what he's done in the last 10 days.

It's insane. And he's going to get another fight in August, apparently. But I mean, Gilbert Burns has looked sensational since moving up. And he's looked even better just this year. He went from being an also ran lightweight. He is now the number one contender with a bullet at Welterweight. And he gets a chance to upset Kamala Usman, who maybe is. on his way to being the next GSP or maybe he's on his way to being the third victim of Gilbert

Burns. Oh man, Casey. The decision comes down to you. I don't know. This one seems maybe easy to me. What do you think? Judge Casey Leiden, who is the champ? You know, I've had a bunch of stressful calls in the last few weeks, but it's nice to have a week off.

This is a, this is going to be, this is, this one's not too, this one's not too. difficult. Your winner. And new. Jedmishu. M.M.A. Fighting, baby? Yeah. And new. Congratulations, sir. Wow. Okay. A.K. looking around. You showed a championship caliber, you know, contendership, a heart. You can't, you battled back from an early down. Battled back again after I took the third. But the Ustman, Oostman hurts you. Jed, look, you know I'm nothing but class. So having to hand over the championship to you

is a bitter pill to swallow. I will be sending in a formal complaint to the commission. There was definitely some question on loose. I would have liked to have seen a point deducted. I'm not sure what's going on. That's it. I have nothing else to say. This is your moment.

This is your moment. Whatever. Give me the mic. Whatever. It is your moment, Jed. I'm not saying, I'm not going to talk. With that, you don't get any money. You don't get an actual title belt.

Hopefully we could make something happen in the near future. but you do get 30 seconds to talk about whatever it is you would like to talk about in this great sport of ours. Good, bad, indifferent. You want to use that time to talk about AK your opponent? The floor is yours. Look, AK, a great guy. He and I have worked together a long time. You can come, I'm going to be a fighting champion, so you can come challenge whenever you'd like,

whenever the powers of BC fit. With my remaining seconds, I'd just like to shout out Shogunhu and Little Nog. That fight was probably everyone's worst thing coming into this week. and it ended up being super fun. And don't want to ever see either of him fight again, but I think that'd be a great way for Shogun to also end his career. I know he seemed like he's not going to do that. But please, walk away, Shogun.

That's as good a way to end your career as possible. Little Nog stepping out, you know, with a loss. But on top, I'd like to see him do the same. Well said. A.K., you are no longer the champion. Any final thoughts on this week's episode? Welcome to Hell, Jed. All right.

You think it's easy wearing this crowd? It's heavy, brother. It's heavy. It's all yours. I got sturdy neck muscles. I'm ready. Well, good run, AK. You'll be back, I'm sure.

Jed, congratulations. The new BTL champion of the universe. He gets it done. And who will he defend against next week? We're going to have to dig deep, maybe outside of the MMA fighting camp, because I'm sure the people are going to want to step up and take the title off.

one of the most fiery and outspoken members of this media space. So congratulations on the win. And that's it. Another episode of Between the Links is in the Books for AK, for Jedmishu, our new champion. Big shout out to the truck, Casey Liden for the production, Esther Lynn on the graphics in the open. I am Mike Heck. We'll see you back here next week. We'll go back once again, Between the Links.

I love you guys. This has been Between the Links and your host, Mike Heck. Brought to you by MMA Fighting. a production of Vox Media. You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network.