MMA Fighting - Between the Links: Future of 155, Nate Diaz, Paige VanZant's BKFC Debut, Stephen A. Smith, More

Episode Date: February 5, 2021

Mike Heck hosts the BTL championship match between MMA Fighting's Steven Marrocco and longtime MMA journalist Josh Gross as they will discuss if there has been any clarity in the UFC's lightweight division since UFC 257, where Nate Diaz fits into the mix, Paige VanZant's anticipated BKFC debut on Friday, a look at Saturday's UFC Vegas 18 event, Stephen A. Smith's recent comments, and more. Follow Mike Heck: @MikeHeck_JR Follow Steven Marrocco: @MMAFightingSM Follow Josh Gross: @yay_yee Subscribe: http://goo.gl/dYpsgH Check out our full video catalog: http://goo.gl/u8VvLi Visit our playlists: http://goo.gl/eFhsvM Like MMAF on Facebook: http://goo.gl/uhdg7Z Follow on Twitter: http://goo.gl/nOATUI Read More: http://www.mmafighting.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. Live from MMA Fighting Studios, this is Between the Links. And now, your host, Mike! I can never get enough of the iconic voice of Esther Lynn as she welcomes you to another live edition, Between the Links here on MMAFighting.com. Hope you're all having a great week. Hope you enjoyed our live stream of the UFC Vegas 18 virtual media day,

which caused an hour delay in starting this show, but it's all good because we're here now, and we have a lot to get to. As always, for those watching the program live with us right now, let us know what you think when it comes to these rounds. You're about to watch how you would score them. If you're scoring it one way or another, let us know in the chat if you're leaning in a certain direction.

But let's get this party started, as we have a great matchup for you this week, between a couple of longtime M-A journalists, OGs, if you will. First, let us introduce the Challenger, a man who was minding his own business a week ago at this time, and he was called out via social media by our champion. His reaction, he put it in the calendar as, quote, Morocco ass whooping, I believe, and is ready to quote verbally cold cock, our reigning champion.

Happy to welcome longtime journalist, the editor at large for Sherdog, Mr. Josh Gross. Josh, welcome to the program. How are you? Well, I said all of those things. That is true. I have no idea what we're doing, but I'm happy to join you guys. Thank you. Okay, well, you're going to find out on the fly. And now introducing the reigning, defending, BTL champion following not one, but two consecutive victories over Jedmishu. Let us say hello to the deputy editor for MMAfighting.com.

Mr. Stephen Morocco, what's going on, champ? Happy to be here. Now that I've put Jed Mishu in my rearview mirror, ready to take on one of my all-time heroes in MMA journalism, he was a jerk asking all the good questions when I was. first getting into the business. So now I'm happy to send him packing with a loss in a game that he knows nothing about. It started off so friendly, but here we are in great BTL spirit. It's all friendly.

It's good. Good competition, me and Stephen. All right. All right. Well, if you guys watched last week's show, which Josh obviously did not, we spent a lot of time discussing the aftermath of UFC 257 and Dustin Porre's big win over Connor McGregor,

Michael Chandler's big win over Dan Hooker, and after lots of interviews between the two big winners along with Justin Gaichi and Charles Olivera, comments from McGregor, Habim Ramagamadav is still the champion. It doesn't seem like much has happened here. But Josh, I want to start with you this week from where we were on January 24th after UFC 257

to where we stand today on February 4th, do you feel like we have any clarity at all in the lightweight champion? beat you picture? Like, do we have even less clarity than we had a week and a half ago? I don't think we've had any fight since then. So no, there's no clarity. We need them to fight. So matchups, you know, what direction is the division going to go? Is there a 1A? I guess that's Dustin Porre. Everything flows off of him, right? I think you could match it up 100 different ways and we got to come to a conclusion. So UFC doesn't do tournaments, but it doesn't have to

I'd have to call it a tournament, just let them fight, and we'll have the answer to that. If Kibibibn-Bagh-Metamatov is not fighting anybody, then somebody else is number one right now. And I think it's unclear who that is. So, no, no, it's clearly not an answer question. Steve, what do you think? Because, again, we talked about this last week. We had certain ideas, maybe some expectations of where this would all go. And now that we've heard from some of the parties involved, I feel like we've perhaps gone backwards here.

Do you feel the same way? Or do you feel like maybe there's a little more clarity than we're? we had a week ago considering what you heard and may have seen. No, you basically just have a bunch of guys jockeying for position. You know, the UFC hasn't really indicated what it's going to do. And the thing is that it's not just having the guys fight. It's the question we're all trying to answer right now is what promotional strategy is the UFC going to take? Is it going to be one based on competition and the sport?

Or is it going to be one based on what sells a game? the most. And I think most of the debates we've been having around this question are about that difference because there are clearly a lot of matchups that sell a lot better and would entertain the fans would be great business for the UFC, but may not be the best in terms of what's right for the sport, what should happen. Like Josh said, Dustin is the guy to beat. He's the one that should be fighting for the title. Will he fight for the title? It depends. It depends on the strategy or the direction that the UFC wants to go. Historically, I think we can, just the fact that we're debating this kind of shows you

that people are well acquainted with this issue, you know, what the UFC is going to do in terms of, you know, cashing in immediately or doing something that's more oriented toward the sport. But no, I mean, basically what we're seeing right now is a bunch of guys trying to jockey for position and waiting to see what their bosses say. This shed miss shoe, it's disheartening that all the wins on Stephen Springer against me. Excellent comment from the former champion. But Stephen, I want to go back to you.

And speaking of Jed, you and Jed both gave your thoughts on what you would like to see happen here. And your idea was, let's do Chandler v. Olivera. Winner gets Poirier for the belt. And that certainly seemed like a way to go. And the UFC reportedly liked that idea as well and wanted to make that fight happen next weekend at UFC 258. but as reports state, Oliver turned that down. And now there's only a handful of people who actually know what happened to that situation. But let's say for like the sake of argument, that is what happened, Stephen.

Like Olivera turned this fight down. And sure it was super short notice for both guys. And I don't blame Olivera for saying no. But this would be the second time per reports and per Dana White prior to UFC 257 that Oliverer turned down a fight with Michael Chandler. So although he's a popular name, especially amongst the hardcore fans, do you feel like this sets Olivera back in the peasant? King of Water since Dana always says, hey, when these opportunities come, when I knock on that door and pick up that phone, it's probably in your best interest to answer and say yes. Yeah, it's never a good thing to not say yes when Dana White calls. I mean, we've seen that

happen several times. And Olivera's reasons for not wanting to do it are completely rational and completely logical, you know, not the least of which, he's got to cut weight and he's got to train for a guy who's willing to fight him on two weeks. Chandler's just coming off of a fight. You know, I mean, he's a little, he's a little bit more tuned up than Olivera. So it's completely understandable that Oliver would want to say no. But unfortunately, he's been put in an impossible situation, you know, because if he says no, then he goes to the back or goes down the ladder. If he says yes, he makes a maybe an unnecessary risk in terms of his career.

Now, you know, what is MMA fighting? What is what is UFC? It's all about risk and the risks that you take. And we've seen a lot of risk takers, you know, get big rewards. So, you know, there's an argument to be made that if you're doing this and you believe you're the best in the world, you should fight at any time. But this is not at this level of the game when the margins are so thin as far as who wins and who loses, you got to look at it from, you know, Oliveris perspective and say, look, you know, if I'm going to be at my best, I want to have to have. have the best training camp. I want to have notice. And really, it just speaks more to the UFC's promotional strategy and their, their unreasonable

demands at times that he's been put in this position in the first place. What do you think, Josh? Where does Charles Olivera stand now compared to where he did a week ago after reportedly turning down another fight with Michael Chandler? I know it's short notice. He wants to hold out for a title fight, and I can understand his thinking, but did he almost in a way say no and talk himself out of any chance of fighting for the belt next? No, that would be really stupid. The UFC would be dumb to operate that way. That doesn't make sense.

He's a great fighter and that's not the right fight in this particular moment. So there's a shark tank right now. Khabib doesn't exist in this pool, right? So everybody is trying to get what they can get. And he needs to do it the best way that serves him and that's to be prepared to fight, not fight Mike Chandler on two weeks notice after Chandler had a huge training camp and an easy fight and is still in shape. That's stupid. it. So no, he shouldn't do that. I want to go to Stevens' earlier point talking about sort of

competition versus fights that, you know, in a sporting sense are the way to go. There are a bunch of fights that work on both ends. So you can do a lot of matchups right now that would draw people in interest-wise and also serve the competitive interests of trying to crown a new champion. I see a ton of those kinds of fights in that division, that weight class, that's not an issue of 155. So I don't think Charles Oliver or Mike Chandler or any other fighters have to sort of really jockey too hard. The UFC needs to make fights in this weight class. There are unanswered questions here. The results will speak for themselves.

I'm not worried. I think the UFC will answer the question pretty shortly this year. And we're going to get some amazing fights out of this weight class. I agree. And another name has entered into the fray officially, and that is one Nathan Diaz, because he's been on Twitter, calling out Porier. He was calling out the guys in the division before UFC. 27 and he's made it clear he wants us in Porre,

but he wants to do it at 170 pounds, which could obviously put a wrench in some plans. So Josh, let me ask you, where does Nate Diaz fit in this conversation, your opinion? Like, A, can he jump the queue altogether in the Porreet sweepstakes? Or B, can he possibly get this done

for a fight at 170? Like, what kind of sense does that make? How much power do you think he has here? Yeah, look, I think Nate is a unique fighter in that he can kind of make the scenario that he wants. He's got that ability, that cachet, that carry with an audience, a bona fide pay-per-view star. There's not a lot of them. The UFC needs him.

He needs them. So I expect the way he's talking to, he'll fight at 170. He's in a lot of, like, training scenarios right now. He wants to fight. You know, I would expect if the UFC needs a pay-per-view sometime in the spring, you know, he seems like he wants to be ready for that. And he can make a lot of fights. I think, you know, when he calls out Porriere, he's saying that he wants to fight a guy who just who just whooped ass. That's what Nate says almost about everything.

If you listen to him, he actually is pretty clear on what he believes and what he likes and what he hopes to do and why he does it. And, you know, fighting a guy like Dustin Porre, answers the box for him, takes all the things off a box. So if Dustin doesn't want to go to 55, from 55 to 70, no problem, makes sense. but he wants a fight at 170. I think there are matchups for him, and the UFC certainly would be eager, I think, to want to promote his fights right now. To kind of build on that, Stephen.

I mean, Nate Diaz has said for a minute now that he's done at 55. So when Dana White said before 257, hey, we got something exciting for the fans with Nate Diaz at 155, I was like, what? Because I thought he said, but, you know, but anyways,

we know how this all works, but where does he fit into all this right now? Does he have that kind of leverage at this point to jump the line at 55 or maybe perhaps convince Porriere to, hey, we'll fight for the belt some other time. Come meet me at 170 and we'll fight there. I'm not going to pretend to know what Nate Diaz thinks or like what motivates Nate Diaz. But in terms of where he fits, he's a bona fide star despite not being a needle mover. and whatever he wants to do

in terms of staying at 170 which is by the way not something new like Nate Diaz hasn't liked fighting at 155 since 2010 the one time I managed to get through to him on the phone he was basically declaring himself

kind of done with 155 pounds because he was tired of being taken down by wrestlers and held for the entire time so yes he likes fighters who who whoop ass whoop ass and Dustin Porier certainly fits the bill. You know, Dustin Porier, it's a decision based on Dustin Poirier,

or Connor McGregor. It's like, do you want to make a bunch of money? It's like, you fight Nate Diaz at 170. That's probably going to add some extra zeros to your bank balance. So do you want to take that side step, you know, put competition to the side for a little bit and make a bunch of money?

And in a fight that you're probably favored in because I think that Dustin Poitier probably has more ways to win, and I would favor him in the ranges that Nate Diaz is good at. I think that Dustin, it's a very winnable fight for Dustin, especially considering the activity that he's had and the schedule that he's had versus Nate Diaz, although you could kind of make the other argument because Nate Diaz hasn't had enough, hasn't had a lot of road where maybe he's fresher. So I don't know.

There's arguments to go out of the way, but Nate Diaz is his own orbit, and it's really just a matter of like do the opponents are the opponents out there are they interested in you know fighting a fight that's going to have a lot of attention make both fighters a lot of money put the other stuff to the side and then come back to that when whatever is happening at lightweight works itself out all right so josh last week on the program predictions were made on where this could go okay and a week later we've seen these interviews these reports conna mcgregor is spoken you know he wants the trilogy with Dustin. Dustin seems to like that idea. A lot of people seem to think that the UFC is going to go back to this well between Dustin and Connor, even though Dustin just knocked him

out in the second round, that this will be the lightweight title fight. So let's put a deadline July 1st on this. On July 1st of this year, will we have a new undisputed lightweight champion, in your opinion? And if so, who do you think the UFC will go to to compete for said title? If undisputed means there's just like not also an interim title in that term and anything's possible, I guess. Yeah, there's going to be a UFC champion. Kabib is still walking this earth. We can't pretend he doesn't exist. So it's like, you know, he's still going to be looked at as the number one guy, unless it's two or three years down the road and he still hasn't fought.

As far as I'm concerned. Yes, there's going to be a UFC championship fight in that time. It has to. There's a ton of space, a ton of room on the calendar, and I expect it to happen. You know, who it is exactly, I don't know, which direction it goes. It could go a lot of different ways. You know, you could have a title eliminator in between and then plan for a championship fight on that July date.

You know, I don't know. So, but I expect there to be. I also want to make a point about Nate Diaz. One, like, you know, I don't presume to know what's in his mind. I've talked to him a lot. I've talked to people around him a lot. I've known them for a long time. The way that they speak sort of one-on-one and they're the whole.

whole idea of what Nate's about. Like, I've never seen anything other than that reflected in interviews he's done, statements he's made. So he's a pretty genuine guy in terms of showing who he is. I'm not presuming to know who he is. Also, he's the ultimate example of an entertainer slash competitor. He covers both of those. And, like, that brings a lot of power.

He, you put him in a fight against the high profile guy. He wins. Immediately he sort of gets contender talk, title talk. He gets thrown into that mix. If he doesn't win, people still love watching him fight. So, you know, those kinds of fighters are rare. Nate covers all those boxes. And, you know, I think he's not going to be fighting in 55.

A lot of guys underneath him will. And we will see a champion. What do you think, Stephen? July 1st. I mean, because listen, Dana White said, me and Habib are going to dinner back in Vegas, and he's going to make a decision. And if he says, none of these guys impress me,

I'm not coming back. He said he doesn't want to hope the division. We're going to strip him to the title. or he'll vacate the title and then we'll move on from there. Obviously, we have not seen any of that happen yet, even though the time has passed. So July 1st, will we have a new undisputed UFC champion? And if so, how does the UFC make this happen? Because you have to assume they got two guys in mind here.

I don't know how they're going to do this in five months without having that in mind already. I mean, this is all just great market research for them. They do this a lot. They sort of see what the fans are saying. see what's doing the best analytics on social media, what's doing the best numbers. And a lot of times they make their decision based on that.

First and foremost, they find out whether or not they can do it physically, whether the fighters that they're interested in are capable of doing it and whether all the ducks line up in terms of finances and other stuff if there are those considerations. But yeah, I mean, they'll make it happen. There's a tremendous amount of heat on it. one of the biggest selling points is who's going to take the crown next?

So, yeah, I definitely think it can happen by July. It may just be a question of, you know, the finances. You know, if somebody starts getting wants a better deal or, you know, other issues come up to complicate it. That's the only thing that I can see getting in the way. We could do a whole freaking show on the 155 pound division, but we need to move ahead. Sorry, Mike, that doesn't get in the way because there's a whole thing. 10 other guys behind that fighter who's going to say yes, and they're all great. That doesn't get in the way of a title fight.

It just delays it, though, given that we have five months and given the way that things go back and forth, they could delay it. Maybe, but I doubt it. I doubt it. All right. Getting a little ferocious. I like it. A first exchange of the show.

There we go. Not the last one. No, it probably won't be. We're just getting started here. It's obviously 55 is a very interesting storyline and we'll have to see how this plays out. There's really no good answer for this. They're all good answers.

But the point for round one, based on what we've heard, goes to Stephen Morocco. He is on the board. Close round. Close round. I know how Jed feels. It's fixed. There you go.

Call it rigged when it goes your, it doesn't go your way. There you go. All right. With Instacard, You get groceries that over-deliver so you can over-share your preferences. Want russet potatoes with no brown spots? You got it.

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Service fees exclusions and terms apply. If you've seen the show, then you'll know that it's not fixed. And you're probably going to get on the board pretty soon. But let's head to tomorrow night. All right. Paige Van Zant is set to make her BKFC debut against Britain Hart in the main event of Knucklemania. Obviously, this was a massive signing for BKFC after Paige decided not to re-up with the UFC.

And BKFC has invested a lot in her. So before we get into some of the other aspects of this fight in the event, Stephen, let me ask you, where would you? where would you rate your personal excitement level, maybe even better question, your personal intrigue level for Paige Van Zance BKFC debut tomorrow night? You know, it's a UFC star

kind of going and doing something new, sort of the hot new thing in the sport. So, yeah, I'm interested in it. Presents some interesting questions about how she adapts to the style and the range of, of bare-knuckle boxing, just the way that things transpire in there, the movements, the angles, the footwork she's going to need to sharpen up to have success in that medium.

But, you know, I also think of the fact that she was in the UFC, and she wasn't particularly known as being a knockout artist. She knocked out Beck Rawlings with that jumping switch kick back in the day. Not particularly known as a knockout artist. So that to me creates another level of intrigue in terms of what, you know, how is she going to actually, you know, contend with some of these ladies who've been doing this longer, have more experience and are just game to give back as good as they get. So I don't know, I'm probably a five or a six. It's interesting to me, but I have to cover this sport. It's like, what am I going to do otherwise?

Josh Stevens at a five or a six, okay? Where are you at right now? And, you know, maybe you watch the face off about an hour or so ago. Things got a little intense between PVZ and Britain Hearts. Did that increase your intrigue level for this fight tomorrow? It's a five out of ten, Stephen? I'd say it's a five out of seven. No.

Yeah, it's a five out of ten. Okay. Yeah, I'm, you know, honestly, until Mike you asked me the question about this, I didn't know there was a bare knuckle event this weekend. I don't care. So, like, I appreciate that Paige Van Zand is a fighter and she's doing that. She's getting paid. She was a fairly middle of the road fighter in the UFC.

She wasn't that good. So, you know, this is great for that she can make a payday. But it doesn't do anything for me. I don't disrespect fighters in any risk, you know, they are putting themselves on line always is extremely dangerous and they're choosing to do it. I just choose not to watch. So it's not something that interests me. I don't see a road in bare-knuckle boxing to building a generation of young bare-knuckle fighters who prove that these are just fighters or shopworn or okay or with a name or something that can be marketed and sold to bare-knuckle fighting.

And that doesn't do much for me. On the scale of Stevens' entertainment for sport, to me, this is so far off away from sport that I can't even understand it and I'm not interested in it. So, yeah, no, I'm a zero, but I get why people would be hyped for it, but I'm not. This is a great conversation to have with Josh Gross, because if you're going to talk to somebody about combat sports, you're talking to a person who is the purest of purists. Josh has always covered this sport as a real sport deserving of the merits of other, you know, real sports or mainstream sports. And to me, when I think, when the two of us are talking about this, how many promotions or gimmicks have we seen come and go in the last, you know,

10, 20, you know, 15, 20 years, you know? How many side shows or road shows have we seen promising X or promising Y off of a former fighter, you know, a guy who is a UFC, a guy or a gal who. who's a former UFC fighter sort of looking to trade off their name. It's the lifeblood of the sport. And MMA and combat sports needs whales. And BKFC is a whale. It comes in.

It spends a bunch of money. It keeps fighters employed. It provides opportunities and maybe some highlight reels. It gets some publicity based off of that. Historically, there's not a lot of staying power in that. but it does provide a platform for these guys to apply their trade. And that's pretty much what it is. If you can see it through that lens,

I think you'll enjoy yourself a lot more instead of being the big cranky pants that Josh grosses. Well, hold on. There's a reason I'm not into it, man, is because a lot of these fighters have already taken a ton of damage in their career. And they're not in the UFC or other organizations because they can't compete in that level. They take too much damage. And so I'm not interested in seeing them take more than,

And, you know, Chris Leibin, I get it. Okay. People want to see that guy fight bare knuckle. I mean, he's Chris Levin, the crippler, right? But I think we've seen him take so much damage. And the effect of that damage is not unknown. We know that. I don't want to keep watching that if I don't need to.

And I see no reason for me to watch it. So that's how I feel about it. All right. Fair enough. Just to kind of continue on from like a business sense, Josh, because just think about it, X as a nose. like Brittenhart's heading into this fight doesn't have the greatest record in the world

and this doesn't really matter to you. What's her record? She's a girl. It's like four and four and two or something like that in boxing and bare knuckle. But this is a woman who's paid her dues early in her career. She was winless in like her first, you know, six or eight fights in boxing

and then bare knuckle combined. And she fought Beck Rawlings, lost a split decision. But she's won her last top two combat sports matchups. She's finished both of them. But let's be honest, Josh. I think from a business sense, we're all aware that BKFC is trying to put Paige in the best position to win her first bare-knuckle fight. So my question is, even though you don't necessarily care about the fight, but from a business perspective, does Paige need to go out there and dominate and completely destroy Britain Hart tomorrow?

Or is her just getting there, getting in there, competing in a different sport, getting a close decision win, is that enough here? And I'll take it even a step further. It's a fight and anything can happen in a fight. What if Paige Van Zant loses tomorrow night? Is it like catastrophic for her and for BKFC? Man, look, I think she's going out and putting herself out. She's a known personality more than just a fighter. So sure, going out and getting slaughtered in a bare-knuckle fight

is probably not going to be great for her brand in the long term. I think if you're talking about interest and, you know, yes, fighters get built and this is a new venue for her and fine, she's fighting someone. Look, Paige's record in MMA was what? It's close to 500. wasn't it? I don't, you know, it's not in front of me. But so, you know, I don't, I don't have I don't know enough about the girl who she's fighting, the woman she's fighting, excuse me,

and, you know, what kind of competition she is, generally speaking. Just a good showing, I think. I think the most important metric period with this is if people come and show up and watch. If people show up and watch, no matter what happens to Page Van Zant, they're going to show and watch the next time probably. You know, and so I think that's the most important factor here from a business sense, and she's got an audience you can draw. How much of that carries over? I don't know.

But, you know, that speaks to her and her draw alone. And that's, I think, the thing that's most at stake in this fight, much less than bare-knuckle fighting branded whatever. It's more about Paige Van Zanz's moment than anything else right now. What do you think, Stephen? What does Paige have to do tomorrow, in your opinion, to, she's built a ton of momentum already without even stepping in the ring.

What does she need to do tomorrow to sort of keep this train moving? Is it just winning? Or, I mean, is it just so bad if she loses tomorrow night? Like Josh said, she has built a pretty strong platform independent of BKFC. That's why BKFC saw her out because they seek to leverage the platform that she has. And she's built by being a social media maven

over the last several years. That's like Josh said, kind of more what she's known for. She's had a couple of nice wins in the UFC. But also, like I said before, she's not really known for being a knockout artist. She's more of a grappler, sort of an all-around kind of fighter. So obviously she has to win. It would be better if she did it in highlight real fashion.

And that way that she can, you know, they can splash those clips all over the internet and get the eyeballs that they need to continue building BK. is a brand. I mean, this is something that BKFC has been trying to do since Lobov Malagni-Malig. God damn it.

I have to win the ground. Do not, do not clip this. Do not clip this. I'm telling you, Casey, do not clip this. Malinagi. Malanagi. I'm a fucking Hawaiian. Malaggi.

There you go. Take away my Italian card. I took the, I shot myself and I take full responsibility. Anyways, she has to win a lot of this, in my opinion, from what I've heard. This is make a bunch of money, keep your brand strong and then move on to the next phase of your MMA career. If you had the chance to make a crap load of money doing bare-knuckle boxing for a year

or two and then go back to Bellator or PFL or whatever. whatever is out there at the moment, you would do it. You'd be silly not to, especially where her career is at in her age and the options that are available to her. So she's got a multi-fight deal, so she's not going anywhere if she loses, but obviously it'd be better for her to win and it'd be better for BKFC's brand as well. As we just saw in the comments, in addition to that fight, we have Johnny Bedford versus that win for a BKFC title,

believe it's the lightweight title, as well as the final fight as Josh Menton for one Chris Lieben. He takes on Quinton Henry. Steve, Steven, real quick on this before we move on to our next topic, Chris Leban, I mean, what a super interesting career this man has had.

It was on the first season of the Ultimate Fighter, when his first five UFC fights, and then he got thrown in with Anderson Silva, and then just look at his resume. He's fought Michael Bisbing, he's got a win over Bandalay Silva. He's fought a who's who during like a 23 fight stretch in the UFC. And this is also a guy who's had his ups and downs

with substance abuse. He seems to be in a pretty good place now as he prepares for his final hurrah tomorrow night. So, Stephen, regardless of what happens at Knucklemania tomorrow night, what will be Chris Lieben's legacy, in your opinion, in the combat sports world? I would like to use my time to actually just say Polly Malinaji's name over and over again.

Polly Malinaghi Poly Malinagy Poli Malinagy there, okay, we're done thank you all right, what was the question Chris Levin? Okay, so Chris Levin

you know, when Josh was talking about the damage that he's taken throughout his career I mean, look, I can argue with that I'm the guy who just wrote about brain damage and certainly competing in combat sports long longer is not good for Chris Leibon's brain. And I'm not a huge fan of it.

I don't know how I'm going to stop it or how anyone would stop it. He's obviously an adult and he can make his own decisions as far as moving forward. And then we can make the decision, as Josh said, whether we want to be a part of that or not. That being said, I don't think that what Chris Levin does at BKFC defines his legacy. I mean, Chris Levin is always going to be known as the crippler guy who had a rock of a chin and was able to take five to give you the one that put you out. Chris Lieben will always have a part in mixed martial arts history, particularly as a member of the Tough One cast.

And I don't think what happens. I actually appreciate the fact that Chris is going above and beyond his legacy as a fighter to be a member of the combat sports community on the officiating side. How many times, how many fighters have complained about officiating and how terrible judges and referees are and have no interest in learning about it. I really appreciate the fact that he is a licensed referee in California and he's improving that set of skills

and wants to be a part of the sport in another capacity. What do you think, Josh? What do you think, like 10 years from now when someone comes to you and says, hey, Josh, you've been around for a long time. Tell me about the crippler Chris Levin. What's his legacy going to be? I mean, I knew you mentioned the damage and the killer be killed mentality's head heading into fights, but is that his legacy?

Just going in there, balls to the wall, whatever happens, happens. We're going to throw until one guy falls, or do you see something else when you look back on his career? Yeah. They already tell me I've been around for a long time. So that's way, we're way past that point. But I'll tell you what. Fortunately, that's true because I've gotten to see a lot of great fighters come up and seen their careers unfold. And Chris Levin was one of them.

you know he's he's a guy who came from a camp but was uh very unique and just the the the punching power like he had the the stop you dead power and you know that was something that um it was a great advantage of his but it turned out to be in the end you know also a detriment because he always relied on that power and he tried to walk through everything just to get to that power and and he you know he'll pay a price for that he's already paid a price for it and to see him fight again is hard because it you know You know all that we've seen already. I talked about it before. I don't need to talk about it again.

I think, you know, his legacy is not on the line or even discussed. It shouldn't even be discussed in this context with this fight. His legacy has nothing to do with it. The legacy that sort of lingers here is the professional fighter legacy. You know, he is just another and a long line of professional fighters who fought way past the point of no return and was forced to because they didn't make enough over the course of their careers. And so that's how I see it's another thing where it's sort of, it's difficult. You want to support fighters, you know, you want them to be able to support themselves and make money and you have to sort of participate in that.

At the same time, it's hard to participate in something like this for me. And I'm not just singling out, Chris Levin. I feel this way about a lot of fights. And so that's why in general I have no very little interest in this kind of card. But for Leibin, the legacy's ultimate fighter, you know, I think is his interaction. What he gave to that show was a major reason why the Ultimate Fighter won was a success. There was a lot of fighters who contributed to that and played a part. But Lieben's role as a character on that show was super important for it to sort of connect with people, I think,

and to see him then fight and people could follow him over the course of his career was major. I don't know that his legacy is written. I'm not sure where it'll end up. I think people have a lot of just concerns over it. but he's a memorable fighter, to say the least. And he was instrumental during a very, very important time during the UFC's history. And I think he's always tied to that. I would agree.

Like I stated in the original question, whatever happens tomorrow night has nothing to do with his legacy. Like he's not like when he retires and picks like one Hall of Fame to go into or like what sport he's going to like bronze his gloves in or lack thereof. It's an MMA. Like his legacy will always be tied to MMA. like BKFC is just kind of like cherry on top of whatever Sunday he's made but ice cream and the whipped cream and the sprinkles all that stuff it's a m m m m m m that was that was an amazing euphemism that was that was tremendous and it related to dessert which is wow yeah yes so eat your dessert and uh thank chris leapin for that and thank my words but hopefully listen classic killer be killed guy like i said unique personality seems in a great place physically you know he's changed his life lifestyle around. He looks good. He seems to be in a good place. So hopefully after tomorrow

night, he can live the best life possible with his family and referee some fights. And we'll see what happens. So we'll turn the page on this and on the program. The point for round two goes to there's the drum roll. Got to give it to Josh Gross here. Got to give it to Josh Gross. Not just because of a polymolanoaghi mispronunciation. That was enough, though. That was That was Jed Mishu mistaking Nick Lens for Darren Elkins bad. But the purpose of this program is, it doesn't matter if I agree or disagree with either of you guys. It's how you present your argument. And Josh, whether he's watching BKFC or not, made a compelling argument as to why he isn't watching it.

So he gets the point. So let us turn the – you're very welcome, Josh. The UFC is back in Las Vegas for a long stretch. It begins this Saturday. UFC Vegas 18. The card has had some shuffle-ups, but as you record right now, the main dishes, back to food, so to speak, they're all intact, notably the main event between Alster Overeem and Alexander Volkov. Intriguing heavyweight matchup, Josh, we have Volkov, who looked great in his last fight against Walt Harris, taking on the Ream, who is on his final run, finishing his last two fights, winner of four of his last five, with the loss coming at the very last second to Jarzanio Rosenstrike. So I'm curious, when you look at this fight on paper, Josh, what is that stake here in this heavyweight matchup, top in the card?

Well, for Volkov, it's just to continue momentum in this way class and give the UFC a reason to book him for better fights. You know, a win over Alistair over him in the spot, we'll do that. For Alistair, I think he's been really clear, right? So this is his last run, as you mentioned, last chance to get that UFC belt. He's held a lot of titles in his career. He's held a lot of really prestigious titles in his career. Never the UFC title. He had an opportunity.

He fell short. This is now a chance and he sees it. And I like how he talks about this. Alistair has had longevity because he took care of himself. He's incredibly talented, unbelievable athlete. And he's done things late into his career that I thought, you know, having watched him up close to the very early stages of his career, having been in Holland to see him fight live and too hot to handle when he was just sort of figuring the same.

stuff out. He is a guy who I think has always been focused on fighting being his best and winning. And that's brought him a long way. I actually think he's going to win this fight. I don't think Alastair Overgum is going to go out losing to Bolkoff. I think he's got more to say this year. So I like Alistair in this fight. There's a lot on the line, I guess, if you're talking about both of them that way. Our first too hot to handle reference on between the links. I love it. So with Josh is here, I'm very excited. Steven, what do you think? Like, obviously, you know, the win and the record

and getting the extra money and such, especially for Volkov's sake, that's on the line. But when you look at, like, the heavyweight division as a whole, which is obviously very interesting right now, got some on-answered questions, what is that stake between Overeem and Volkov on Saturday? I don't disagree with what Josh is saying. I mean, in terms of the stakes for the individual fighters,

I mean, you have, Eyochik versus Ngano, too, happening later. And there's a question of whether Stipe will be around long term. And obviously, the longer he goes, the more miles he racks up, I would think that it would be a more attractive opponent for contenders who are looking to get up to the title. as far as Overeem and Volkov

I mean they can pretty much slot themselves in you got Blades and Lewis happening but then and then you got Gagne and Rosenstruck Overeem has the name appeal and the resume where you can just

you can put him in you can make a good argument at pretty much any point to give him the heavyweight title shot so yeah I mean, I think that it's certainly over him's fight to lose. If he plays it the way that he's been approaching a lot of his later career fights, making sure that he doesn't get into extended firefights, using his grappling, using his ground and pound,

using his ring IQ to outsmart opponents, and to minimize the very obvious deficit of his chin, I think that he can definitely take this and get in that, you know, position to where he wants to be picking up that one last major title and perhaps, you know, the most significant title of his long, long, MMA career in the UFC belt. Heavyweight is, is always so fascinating because you could lose a fight and then win like two or three more and you're like right back in the mix.

And I know, Stephen, you're not, you said it last week, you are not a pro-revellinger. wrestling guy at all. And I don't think Overeem has said these exact words for sure, but he's kind of positioned himself as like the end of the run, Rick Flair, where he was going to keep on wrestling whoever until he lost. And then once he lost, he was done, no matter what, which he did to Sean Michaels or WrestleMania. I know you don't care about any of this. This is obviously nonscripted stuff. But do you feel that Overeem is in that position with what he's trying to achieve? And that's another shot at the heavyweight title. So I'm curious, like, is this more than just a fight for Overey?

Like if he wins, his goal stays intact in this final run, but do you feel like he's going to keep fighting until he loses one more, or do you think he keeps going? It just depends. You know, he can't take too many more of those brutal knockouts. I mean, but that's just me talking. That's me, the outsider talking.

It could be that he just presses on as long as the UFC continues to give him fights. That seems like something that could definitely happen. He seems committed enough to where, And like you said before, I mean, the heavyweight division has just always been so thin. He's always kind of like in that picture, you know, he's always a guy that has, like I said before, the resume that you can give him a couple wins or get him a couple wins and he gets right into the title picture. I would hope that he wouldn't continue on if he had really severe outcomes like we've seen in the past. but yeah, I believe him when he's,

I believe that characterization that he could just keep going on until they won't give him any more fights, or he wins the belt. What do you think, Josh? Do you think it's like winner go home for Overeem? Do we have got to that point? Like, I know if it gets knocked out brutally, that's one thing, but let's just say like Volkov goes in on Saturday

and like 50-45s him or 49-46 is him. Is that enough for Overeign to be like, listen, I made this final run. It's been a hell of a career. I'm out. Or do you think he would come back and keep going? That's a real difficult one. It's almost to imagine if he got shut out on the scorecards in five rounds.

Like, he would almost feel it made more sense to retire than if he got, you know, verbally cold-cocked except in a real way. You know, and he went down. And so that's a difficult thing. Alastor is, like I said, he's treated his career. with purposeful intentions the entire time. He's had game plans. He's mapped out his career in a lot of ways. I'm sure he has a sense of what he wants to do.

But, you know, life sometimes doesn't work out like you think it will. An outcome could change his mind. Who knows what it will be. Again, I think he'll win this fight, and I think it'll continue. But if he does lose and loses badly or just doesn't show up, can't compete, I wouldn't be surprised. Alister's a pretty smart guy. And I wouldn't be surprised if he was willing and he worked it out and decided, you know, I probably, this is it.

I'm done. If he's being genuine and honest about the run being the reason why he's here and he's focused and he's ready, because if you can't beat Volkov, you can't go on a run to the UFC title. And that's just that doesn't, the math doesn't work. So we'll see about how he comes down in the end. I think, I don't think he'll have to make that decision, but we'll see what happens. Fair enough. In my opinion, and I love Alsa Rovereem and like seeing him in these made-event spots,

but if you look at the entire card as a whole, that heavyweight fight is like the third or fourth most intriguing fight on this entire card. So I'm curious, Josh, we can think of the card in its entirety because, I mean, co-made event, obviously you get Sanhagen versus Frankie Edgar, huge fight at 35. We have the UFC debut finally of Manel Cape, former Rise and Banamway champion, is coming off the longest layoff of his career, taking on Alexander Pantosia. and then we have this fight at 155 that is completely flying under the radar that could potentially shake things up a bit based on our first conversation

between Diego Faheda and B'Neill Darrier. So what do you think of this card as a whole for their return to Vegas? Fantastic card. I mean, this is a card without a huge headliner of a pay-per-view, would be the massive, one of the biggest paper views of the year for the UFC. That's the kind of lineup of fights I feel looking at the lineup top to bottom and the fights you mentioned. Competitively brilliant, I think a lot of smart.

matchups stylistically and just deep from top to bottom. It's a fight that, fight card that feels like you have to sort of tune in from almost the very beginning to watch, you may miss something really good. I'm all about that Pantoja-Cabe fight. I think that's the one that sort of I've zeroed in on as like, I have to watch that fight live. I'm going to watch all the fights live, but that's the one I felt like, wow, I really sort of have to be there for that. I look forward to it. Other fights, too, to be excited about. No question about it. You mentioned them. But that was the one I sort of zeroed in on right away. I was like, everything about that fight I love. I can't wait to see that. What do you think, Stephen? Top to bottom, I mean, you'll be watching from start to finish.

What do you think of the card in its entirety? It's good. It's a lot of seasoned vets going up against new prospects. And then, you know, you got the Johnson-Guita fight, which is just like the old-timers fight. So, yeah, I mean, it's a good card. It's a good TV card. I don't know. if it's a pay-per-view, but it's, you know, definitely like an ESPN. It probably deserves to be on ESPN or maybe even ABC, you know. I like that main event. Frankie Edgar, man, he just keeps going. And now that he's an established phantom weight, you know, we'll see if he can get into the mix at 135. Corey's hanging out his setback and, you know, was looking amazing before that. So this is a great test

for him to see that, you know, if he can actually make a title run again at 135. And Manel just knocked out, well, not just. He's had a hell of a time getting a UFC fight. But knocked out Kai who just got stopped by

Kioji. You know, we don't, we get these every once in a while. We're big prospects from outside organizations, get to come in and we get to see what they do in the UFC. And that's really exciting to people like us

who watch all the developments in the UFC and other promotions, and we want to see how they fare inside the octagon amongst the best in the world. So I don't know about the CDF versus Darius fight in terms of its relevance to lightweight. Lightweight, as we've just spent so much time discussing, has so much going on. I think a lot of those guys,

like Darius, Shin Fahara, great fighters, have a lot longer road to walk than fighters of a previous generation when there wasn't so much talent at 155. A lot of fighters that are very talented struggle mightily to get fighters in the top 15 to sign on to fight them

because there's just so much for these guys to lose once they get at the top, they don't want to lose their spot. So, you know, that being said, if one of them delivers a highlight, real victory, and either one could, based on previous performances, you know, sure, you could see somebody, you could see one of them being in the conversation

in the next year or two. So, yeah, I mean, overall, I think it's a solid card. Last thing on this, because for those who watch a show, you know when we preview cards, we like to dig a little deeper. And we mentioned some of the under the radar fights like Cape and Pantosia. I know Josh has circled in on that one.

I think Faheda and Darius has been wildly, you know, under promoted. I think that's such a fascinating fight. It's a main card opener. It's just a huge, it's a great fight. Six-fight winning street for Faheda, five-fight winning streak for Dereus, who's kind of kind of be the next guy that's going to be knocking on that door. But let me start with you, Stephen, outside of what we've already discussed, and I know you mentioned Guida and Johnson, that's an interesting fight.

what's sort of your deeper cut fight or storyline that you're watching heading into Saturday? I really have not thought about this. My deep cut. I don't know. Yeah. I do want to see how Mike Rodriguez bounces back after the Ed Herman fight. I thought he looked fantastic in that fight. I don't know a whole lot about Neo-Marc.

has. But that's kind of one, Tim Ravalev, that's one that I'm interested in. He had that that crazy, crazy fight with Trevin Jones and then he basically won six before that. Yeah, I don't have great answers here. This is, I mean, the Kate thing, like I said before, is kind of like my, you know, insider's perspective because, like I said, I have been following his career outside of the Octagon. So he's kind of my deep cut. He would be a deep cut by the mere fact that he hasn't fought in the UFC before he's been fighting on the international stage. And a lot of people who watch the UFC don't watch other promotions. So that's kind of the answer, but I already spoke about that. So, yeah. You get a deep cut for us, Josh?

I did like the Timor-Valya fight. I was going to settle with Steve. And this is a tough question. I would have had a tough time on, too, if you threw it to me first. So I'd take it easy on Stephen, maybe on this one. But I feel like there are interesting fights in the prelim portion. Nothing that really jumped out to me is something that I felt like, hmm, I really, really sort of had a lock in on. I did like Valdev's UFC debut fell short, but no contest now. And so let's see how he can sort of regroup. I'm interested in that.

But there's enough depth across the card a lot of ways. I'm not too worried about deep cuts. I think there's a lot of really prime grade A stuff here that we can sort of bite into if I can play this metaphor out and not look too stupid. So that's my sense of the rest of this card. I do like it. It's talked about it. And Stephen, I just did say that it's a pay-per-view card if you throw a headliner on top of it.

If you get Alistair Overeen against Alexandria of Volkov as a co-main event of a pay-per-view in the rest of this lineup, I think that's a very suitable pay-per-view lineup. You just need that, you know, marquee choice. That's what I was saying about that. Well, I apologize. I wasn't listening to you. Fair enough. Oh, man.

Well, it should be a fun card on Saturday. Also, the return of Devante Smith coming up on Saturday against Justin James. That should be a lot of fun first fight for Devante Smith since August of 2019. That crazy loss to Kamaworthy and everything he's gone through. So excited to see how he looks in his return after that gnarly Achilles injury that he's had. But the prelim started 5 Eastern, early start time digging that main card at 8 Eastern on ESPN Plus. We'll see what happens with that car. But the point for round three, heading into the final question of regulation, goes to the Challenger. Josh Gross, up two to one. All right.

Overjoyed, as you can see. Yes, I could tell. I can tell. But it's not, it's not over yet. Yes. Final topic of regulation. Let us talk about MMA's favorite person and personality, Stephen A. Smith, who was recently on Larry Wilmore's Black on the Air podcast and was asked about women making big moves in the sports world, most notably in executive roles, even coaching roles like Becky Hammond for the San Antonio Spurs because Greg Popovich got ejected from a game. she stepped in and was the head coach in his absence. So Stephen starts off by saying that, listen, this is great. Love that women are getting this kind of notoriety in sports. Before saying what he doesn't want to see is a woman fighting a man in boxing her MMA.

So so far so good for Stephen A. Then he says, I just got to pull this up real quick. There it is. When I think about pugilistic sports, I don't like to see women involved in that at all. I just don't like it. I wouldn't pass. I wouldn't promote legislating laws to prohibit them from doing so, but I don't want to see women punching each other in the face.

I don't want to see women fighting in the octagon and stuff like that. That's just me. So, Stephen, we will begin with you. Stephen on Stephen here. Even on Steven action. This thing took off like crazy when we posted it on the website. Many fighters, fans, etc. Have chastised Stephen A ever since those comments were dropped.

Before we dig in a little more, what did you personally make of his comments? Oe-Ve. I'll start with that. Unfortunately, the nature of the beast in this sport is that a lot of stories involving racism, sexism, get a lot of attention, not only because of people who disagree with Stephen A,

but people who agree with him. That's an unfortunate thing about covering mixed martial arts. There are a lot of people who have these juvenile, well, look, it's my personal opinion that it's an outdated and incorrect take. It is his take. It is his opinion. But the main thing that I was thinking about in the moment was the fact that the UFC didn't say anything. I don't know. I just think, I feel like there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, easy, easy layups to say, you know, we disapprove of this, we don't like this or, you know, we, we, we, we don't condone this. Stephen A is not on, uh, the ESPN, uh, he's not on the UFC's platform often, but he's kind of associated with them every once in a while. Um, and, and yeah, I, I just think that in general, uh, a lot of the things he says, they're his opinion, but it's, it's, it's, it's like, if you're going to have, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's like, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's like, it's like, it's, it's like, it's like, it's, have a guy at the top level of the sport. If you're going to have a guy in that kind of

platform with that kind of attitude, is that the image and the message that you want to send out to all of your prospective viewers. So I just thought it was kind of more of the same. Like this is what he does. This is a stock and trade. This is what he, it's like the other guy, who I'm forgetting whose stock and trade is just outrage and to cultivate outrage and there for no other reason there than to get people going

and I think it's unfortunate that that's kind of where we're at but in this society that we're in where everything's about eyeballs and capturing attention you're going to have guys like him who are there to fulfill that need so to speak what did you think Josh of Stephen A comments. Well, I had a couple of thoughts.

First, I want to say, Stephen, I don't think the UFC should go about making a statement about a reporter's opinion, no matter how stupid the opinion is. Reporter? What's that? Reporter? You call somebody a reporter? He can report stuff, too. He's on an on-air ESPN journalist.

So, yeah, I think, you know, he, that's the line that he walks. He's also an opinion monger, and he's a pundit. I mean, he wears a lot of hats. But I don't think the UFC should go about saying, hey, we disagree with this. And so what? That's not, if you want to take issue with Stephen Aon here, this is how I take issue with you. One, I don't, I don't really care what his opinion is. I just don't.

Like, it doesn't, that's his opinion. He, you know, so he throws it out there. He gets paid, people get outraged that they choose not to. In this case, it's just such an invalid opinion and statement that it means nothing. And here's why it means nothing. and it doesn't make sense for Stephen A. Smith to believe this. This is why it's really ridiculous that I think that Stephen A. Smith, someone like him, who I know, and I work with at ESPN, and I was in the hallways with, and I said hello to,

and I had conversations with. Well, I think it's fairly ridiculous, okay? So from a sporting context, women in combat sports, and I'm going to speak specifically to mixed martial arts, are every bit is good, every bit is entertaining, every bit of draw, every bit amazing as their male counterparts. And by dismissing what they're doing, you are outright making a statement about yourself and what matters to you and have nothing to do with what they're doing because what they're doing is amazing. And so your commentary doesn't mean anything. You're just exposing yourself.

If you enjoy sports and competition and who the best in the world are and you see nothing in female mixed martial arts that draws you in that way, then you're blind. You're blind to it. And it's really wild. I don't get the point that he was trying to make. I don't understand the point that he's trying to make, other than saying what his values are. And if that's what he was saying, then so be he's letting us know. But as far as any kind of statement or retribution or what this means about women's mixed martial arts,

nothing. It's a bunch of bullshit. It doesn't mean anything. We can move on to the next thing. That's how I read this, plain and simple. Let me get your take on this, Josh, because I've had people reach out to me, some friends of mine who are like kind of tied to the space. They're casual fans.

And they've hit me up on text, some on DMs. And they basically said, like, dude, why is everybody overreacting to what Stephen A has said? Because, you know, they thought he was talking personal preference and didn't say things such as like, you know, I don't want to see women fighting. They suck. They're not athletes, et cetera. He didn't say anything like that. My take on the whole thing to sort of negate that argument was, well, you're not wrong, but let's take a look at it as a whole. Like, go back and listen to that entire interview because I listened to that question asked from Larry Wilbur.

and he didn't say, hey, Stephen, what's your opinion on women's MMA and combat sports? Okay. It was like, what is your take on women making strong moves in the executive offices and on the coaching benches, etc? And Stephen decided to go that route on his own without being asked. Why would he do that? Like, is this, as some people are saying, like Stephen A saying,

I know what's going to get my name out there. I'll talk about MMA and combat sports because I know everyone in the space is going to write about it, and my name will be in the headlines for a damn, week. I can't say why he said it. I don't know. I mean, if I, if I would have to see, he's a very thorough person. He says what he, it's in his head and he gets it out and he's very clear in his words. So why, why would he say that? You know, you said it previously he was talking about women executives and their role and sort of women coaches on the field. What was

his opinion on that? What did he say about that? He just said, it's great. I hope to see more of this, but my one point of contention is I don't want to see women fight men in a boxing ring. Here's my point. So for a guy like Stephen A, he's almost got to have a counterpoint. You know, sometimes he's very clear, but sometimes he draws a counterpoint just to sort of cover his bases and express himself fully. And that may have been the case here. And it's his personal preference not to like women's combat sports. So what? That's my whole point. So what? That's his personal preference. Like, who cares what he has to say on? It doesn't matter. It's never going to stop me or millions of people from watching it because it's amazing. He's missing out.

And he's missing out from a sports perspective. And that was my point, that he's losing by thinking that way. And it doesn't make sense. If you love sports and you love competition and you love the best, like you're missing out on a lot of it. If you're not acknowledging women's mixed martial arts, UFC women, like you're losing out, buddy. There's no question about it. And so that's where he loses me. I don't get it.

I don't get the counterpoint what the point of it was. But, you know, he made the statement. And so people want to talk about it. I'm like, I'm talking about it for the first time. I didn't tweet about it. I retweeted from Laura Sanko who made a comment who was like, I want to say a lot of things, but I didn't. That's the only acknowledgement I made of this until you asked me the question because I didn't think it's worth discussing.

So that's generally how I see this kind of stuff. Well, I appreciate you talking about it on this program, Josh. It means a lot. What do you think, Stephen? Like, I mean, people actually text me saying, like, dude, people are overreacting to this. Like, do you feel that way? Do you think something we're projecting? MMA fans are an aggrieved bunch,

and we've been that way for a long time. MMA fans, MMA journalists. It's also a way for MMA websites, such as our own, to get a fair amount of clicks and a fair amount of attention. But in general, we have been the underdog for a long time. We, meaning the MMA community. And any attack at MMA is an attack upon all of us in many of these circumstances.

So when you make a comment about a sport at large or a part of a sport at large, you're attacking us. You're attacking MMA and we wave our pitchforks in the air and make a lot of hay out of it. and all the MMA websites that pay attention to that, pick that up, and capitalize off of it. So I attributed a lot of stuff to Stephen just now in terms of like what he was doing. But I don't really know. It might have just been an aside that like Josh said, revealed personal preference. It may not have been a direct effort to piss everybody off. It may have been he overshared.

That happens. You know, and like Josh said, you'd kind of reveal who you are. And you can make that choice. You know, you can make that choice to say, I don't want to watch this. That's, that's on you. But, you know, given his platform and given who he is, he should know that he's, he's touching a third rail. And that it's probably, he's the highest paid employee of ESPN to do exactly that. That's what he does.

You're absolutely right. I mean, I have no argument. I have no argument against that. That's his thing. I don't know whether, I don't know whether that qualifier, like you said, or the, or the counterpoint was specifically aimed at riling up fans of women's MMA. It doesn't really matter. It did that, you know.

It got people outraged. And so, yeah. We'll talk about whether they should be outraged or not. This is not something you need to be outraged about. It's not. It means nothing. Well, he's a, hold on. He's an employee of ESPN, but he's a journalist, right?

He's a journalist. Stephen A. Smith is a journalist. I do not. I don't call him a journalist. He is a journalist. I know for a fact he's been a journalist's his entire career. He's a journalist. He may have started out that way, but he's not that now.

I mean, I don't want it. He may have started out that way, but he ain't that now, in my opinion. Yeah, but in his capacity, in his confidence. in his comments and in the way that you're viewing him, he is a figurehead of what a personality at ESPN, if you want to call him a personality at ASPN, okay? That I was. The larger personality, fair enough,

who sometimes comments on mixed martial arts in the UFC business, sometimes is on the broadcasts we've seen. I've been with Stephen A. Smith in a locker room at UFC in Atlantic City after Tim Sylvia knocked out Rico Rodriguez. Literally, it was me, Stephen A. Smith, and Tim Sylvia. He's been around the sport for a long time, so he's got a lot of opinions about it,

and they're informed in certain ways. So, like, I think whatever he says he says, and he should be free to say it, and, you know, ESPN shouldn't hold him accountable unless he's like saying something that's defamation, obviously, or untrue. His opinion isn't untrue. It's his opinion. And the UFC should certainly have no role in saying how journalists at the ESPN or personalities the ESPN should speak or say or whatever they can do.

I disagree with that initial point. So this is what I just say. It's a man who's got a big voice who made it off. offhand comment apparently in an interview and a side. And if people want to be outraged by something like that, man, I don't know. I don't get it. There's no, what's the point? Even if you put the headline up, I have no problem with it being a story.

Like Stephen A. Smith said this. It's a story. Fine. But just take it in and understand that's who the man is. And next time they put him on a UFC broadcast, understand who's talking to you. And you can feel more informed. That's the only way I would say to sort of understand why this might be a story and people need to internalize it or think about in any kind of way. People are well informed already about Stephen Smith.

He is a brand. He is a hot, like his name is a signifier of certain things, in particular for the MMA crowd given his history. And when I talk about making a statement from the UFC, I'm not talking about. What was that? The McGregor statement was the history or what was the history? Oh, yeah, McGregor, take your, I mean, look, he's been known,

he's known to a lot of the casuals. I mean, he's just generally, that's his brand. This is what he's been doing for a long time. So he's a guy with bad MMA opinions. Like he's a guy with bad MMA. It's like Stephen A. Smith, that's bad MMA opinion. Like, okay. He's that guy.

Right. Right. The point, yeah, but the point is when you mix that with like, you know, things that are based opinions about the role of sexes and like sexism, and things that are linked a lot of times linked to those things. you know, of course he's going to have a reaction. When I talk about a statement from the UFC, I'm not talking about like we condemn this. And if I said that before, you know, I'd like to amend that.

This is an easy lay-up and like, look, we celebrate what these people do. We think women's MMA is great. And we, as a organization, choose to promote these people, to choose to promote women, sorry. It's an amazing part of the story. It's amazing part of the sport. And this is who we are as a promotion. You don't say this is now who we're not. You say this is who we are.

That's the layup there for me. So, yeah, that's pretty much all I had to say. Fair enough. And we've come to understand. Isn't this great? Yes. Isn't that nice? But now we're cool.

I had to lay out. I hope Stephen A. does one of those silly Twitter videos responding to all this because I think this actually has gotten more momentum than the Soroni comments. at this point. Every woman in the UFC. I just want to hear what he has to say and how he can actually stand by all of this. But I want to hear more, gentlemen.

I want to hear more. Not about Stephen A. Smith, but in general. So the point for round four goes to... Rigged. Stephen Morocco. Well, I mean, just put his heart out for everybody to... Just put his heart out there. Heart on his sleeve.

All of grosses' opinions have been, I don't care. Let's move on. That's basically like let's let's go space, all right. All right. But I just, listen, it's my show, but not anymore. Now I get to turn it over to everybody else, but I just want to hear more. I'm selfish. But it's time for the knockout round. One question decides at all.

Neither of these tremendous competitors have any idea what this question is, and they'll each have 60 seconds to give their answer. And then we will turn out over to the judge, the jury, the executive producer, E. Casey Liden, with the help of all the viewers, and he will render the final decision. Stephen, since you are the champion, it is your prerogative. Would you like to answer this question first? Or pass it on over to Josh? I'm going to give it to the OG. All right. Different strategy from last week. Let's see how it pays off. All right, Josh. So as we have

all seen this week, the Professional Fighters League has released some of their rosters for the upcoming season that kicks off on April 23rd. We've seen featherweight, we've seen lightweight, welterweight, and light heavyweight rosters revealed. There's still a few more spots to plug in. But overall, since 2020 was a bust in terms of in cage action, the PFL has been making some noise with their acquisitions, signing the likes of Roy McDonald, Anthony Pettis, Fabricio Verdoom, even Clarista Shields, Brennan-Lakene in 2019, they've added some good talent along the way. So after a year away, having to play some catch-up with their unique format, Josh, I'm curious your opinion on what the PFL needs to do moving forward

to make this upcoming season as successful and as interesting as possible. How much work do they have to do to get back to where they were at the end of 2018? So one minute on the clock and your time starts now. First point. Hold events. That would be the first thing I would say. Promote events. So they have them on the calendar and they're starting in April.

And so that's good. That's a good place to start. I think no one really missed PFL in 2020. I didn't see a lot of chatter about the missing it, but I think it's reintroduction to mixed martial arts is a very good thing. Certainly for fight fans, for the fighters who are been sort of on the, you know, waiting block here. You know, they got paid a little bit of money, but it wasn't enough. I did a story for Sherdog where I talked about Shaman Marias,

doing Amazon deliveries and Uber Eats. And a lot of these fighters were not as lucky as some of them. We remember the whole Lance Palmer nonsense with a lawsuit. All of that 2020 disasters behind PFL now as they looked at 2021. And I think the fighter rosters have shaped up nicely. Some of the acquisitions work. So a good opportunity for PFL now coming up. All right.

Steven, same question. you're the so you're the commissioner of the PFL. How do we make this thing as successful as it can be? How do we surpass the 2018 season? Because 2019, kind of a bust, but 2018 at the end of it, there's kind of a breath of fresh air

at a lot of people's opinion. So one minute on the clock, how do we make PFL as interesting and as successful as possible in 2021 and go? Stay in business. Watch your margins. That's the main thing that I think about. out for PFL. Just sticking around is an accomplishment in this sport when you have such a

concentration of talent and star power in one direction, which may actually be changing, possibly, depending on the outcome of a certain lawsuit and the potential adding of a certain sport to the Ali Act. But for now, stay in business, watch your margins. You don't have to sign every single big free agent that comes out. And generally, capitalize on the moments that you get. When you do have those moments, capitalize on them. They did a great job this past year of diversifying their talent structure. They're no longer just relying on one manager for 70% of the talent.

So capitalize on that. Do different matchups, you know, get more diversity of skill sets being on display. And just keep doing what you're doing. That's pretty much it. All right. Good stuff. Good stuff. minute is off the clock.

Ladies and gentlemen, watching right now, let Casey know what you think in terms of how you, the viewers, scored this final round while we let those votes come in. I know we're a little bit on a delay from how we're talking. Just a quick reminder of what to expect this weekend from us here in MMA fighting. Of course, we'll have your knuckle mania results in coverage tomorrow night, Paige Van Zanz's debut, et cetera. So be on the lookout for that.

We'll have our UFC Vegas 18 preview show tomorrow as well. We'll be back with the live pre-fight show 30 minutes before the pre-fight show. 30 minutes before the prelim start on Saturday. We'll answer all of your questions, chat with all of you, and then the night of the fights will happen, and we will recap it all on the post-fight show, and then AK and I will be back on to the next one on Sunday. Yes, Josh.

Is it actually knucklemaidia? Is that for real? That's for real. That's amazing. I had no idea. Does that bring you up to a two, Josh? Does that bring you up to a two? No, no, no.

But I'm still making it. Yeah. Okay. Super Bowl weekend. Knucklemania. There we go. But listen, what I'm trying to say is we have you covered with all the coverage this weekend. But we now turn it over to the Honorable Judge Casey Liden for the final decision.

Casey, hopefully you were caught up in the chat. The votes have been flying in. How do you rule? First of all, a great debut from the OG, Josh Gross. It's great having him on the show. I'm still thinking about Polly Maggiagi. I corrected myself, you're a jerk.

Yeah, okay. At least I didn't forget that somebody died. Oh, man. Still crapping on Josh. I mean, still grappling on Jed. I like that. I like that. I didn't do that.

Yeah, no, not you, Josh. Okay, all right, here we go. Here we go. Your winner and new, Mr. Josh Gross. Oh, we have a new champion. We have a new champion. Josh Gross, G. Good Lord.

That's the strap, gets the confetti. What about it? I don't know if I had really cold-cocked Stephen, but I sure won. That's good. It was 48-47. The wins away, my man. I don't care. I'll take it.

You deserve it. All right, Josh, since you've never watched the show, You don't get money or a championship belt, but you get 30 seconds to talk about whatever it is you want to talk about, good, bad, and different in MMA. If you have a call out, you want to call somebody out to join you on the program for a future title defense, the floor is yours with your 30 seconds, whatever you want to say, go right ahead.

How often do I have to defend this title? Is there a champions clause? Like, what do I have to do with this thing? Tell me, tell me, like in 30 seconds. In a perfect world, yeah. In a perfect world, you would come back next week and go again. Yeah, all right. Here's the thing. If you haven't read Jacob Debbott's series on an amazing moment in MMA history, the introduction of Noholds, Bard Fighting to Australia by a fake UFC. This was in 1997. Go to shurdog.com and read the series. It's a five-part series. I edited it. And I happen to think he did a great job. So please check that out. Thank you, Mike, and everybody for having me on. Stephen, for the call out. You are a gracious loser and a good friend. Thank you very much. there you go

Steven your thoughts on the decision here I wholeheartedly disagree with it I think it was wrong headed and seriously I mean what's up with BTL judging I think I should do a story on that

other than that I appreciate Josh coming on the show I appreciate his OG perspective and his curmudgeonly entirely negative well, off a negative outlook on the sport. It's a definite breath of fresh share

in this world that we live in these days. So I'm looking forward to seeing how you defend the belt. And actually, if you will defend the belt next week, let's be frank, it is a weekly commitment. Yeah, I got to figure out if I got space on the calendar. I'll let you know. If I do defend the belt, you get a rematch. I'll just give you that.

You get a rematch. Lots of asses to whoop, I will say that. Lots of assets. Yeah. Well, I want to do years again and then we'll move on. So that's how we'll work it, all right? Perfect. All right.

Well, stay tuned. Maybe we get a rematch. Maybe we get an interim title fight. We'll see what happens. This is not how it works. I want Morocco net. Otherwise, I'm not defending this title. That's how it's happening.

So, you know, we'll see how. I mean, I agree with you. But if you can't come on next week, then we have to figure something else out. Maybe a number one contenders match. I'll make a time. I'll make a time. Bye. Okay.

All right. You're not going to get stripped either way. But listen, we are getting out of here. Thank you all for watching. Big shout to Casey on the production and for the judging. And of course, the iconic voice of Esther Lynn takes you out of here. We'll see you next week right here on Between the Links. Good night, everybody.

This has been Between the Links and MNBA Fighting Production on the Vox Media Network. We're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network.