MMA Fighting - Between the Links: Sterling Out, Sandhagen In at UFC 267, Bellator News, Daukaus-Holland Ending, Dern vs. Rodriguez Stakes

Episode Date: October 7, 2021

Host Mike Heck is joined by MMA Fighting’s Jose Youngs and Damon Martin as they discuss the biggest stories of the week in the world of mixed martial arts. This week, the panel discusses the no contest in the UFC Vegas 38 co-main event between Kevin Holland and Kyle Daukaus and how it was handled ahead of their Nov. 13 rematch, the reaction to UFC bantamweight Aljamain Sterling's withdrawal from his UFC 267 title defense against Petr Yan and Cory Sandhagen being inserted into the bout for an interim title fight, Scott Coker's announcements on Wednesday's edition of The MMA Hour and what was the most impactful story for the promotion overall, what is at stake in the UFC Vegas 39 main event this Saturday between Mackenzie Dern and Marina Rodriguez, whether or not Carla Esparza should be nervous with the result of the 115-pound matchup, and more. Follow Mike Heck: @MikeHeck_JR Follow José Youngs: @JoseYoungs Follow Damon Martin: @DamonMartin Subscribe: http://goo.gl/dYpsgH Check out our full video catalog: http://goo.gl/u8VvLi Visit our playlists: http://goo.gl/eFhsvM Like MMAF on Facebook: http://goo.gl/uhdg7Z Follow on Twitter: http://goo.gl/nOATUI Read More: http://www.mmafighting.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Support for this show comes from the Audible Original, the downloaded two. Ghosts in the Machine. The Earth only has a few days left. Rosco Cudulian and the rest of the Phoenix colony have to re-upload their minds into the quantum computer, but a new threat has arisen that could destroy their stored consciousness forever. Listen to Oscar winner Brendan Fraser reprise his role as Rosco Cudulian in this follow-up to the Audible Original Blockbuster. The Downloaded, it's a thought-provoking sci-fi journey where identity, memory, and morality collide. Robert J. Sawyer does it again with this much-anticipated sequel that leaves you asking,

What are you willing to lose to save the ones you love? The Downloaded 2, Ghosts in the Machine. Available now, only from Audible. To the Vox Media Podcast Network. From M.MA Fighting Studios, this is Between the Links. and now your host, my... Once again, the iconic voice of Esther Lynn

welcomes you to a brand new edition of Between the Links. Hope you're having a wonderful week thus far. A lot to discuss, as always, in the world of MMA. We have a very busy weekend in combat sports ahead with the UFC returning with a nice little early-in-the-day card on Saturday. Then we had the trilogy fight between Tyson Fury and Deonti Wilder on Saturday night. A lot to look forward to this weekend. A lot of news to get.

get to, so let's not waste any time. Let's get right into it. Big match of this week, some more colleague on colleague verbal violence to kind of build into the theme of what's been going on at mhmapfiting.com. As we introduced, the man who actually made me question my career choices on the ranking show this week, although I firmly have my feet in the ground with my stance in the women's pound-for-pound discussion at this very moment. Let us say hello to the host of Fighter versus writer on the M.MA fighting podcasting network, Mr. Damon Martin. How are you, sir? I am good. I'm still reveling in my performance from the ranking show. I've had people actually reach out to me, be like, are you okay, dude? You okay? I'm like,

I'm like, I'm fine. Listen to the very end. We're all good at the end. It's all good. It's all fun discussion. It's sports, people. It's sports. It was. It was. And his opponent, looking to make it two straight victories after knocking off Mr. A.K. Lee last week, one half of the MMA social media, tag team champions of the universe, and a fellow Red Sox fan, Mr. Jose Youngs. How are you, Jose? Big game today.

Big game, Game 1 ALDS. I feel pretty good. I grew up in a house where we're not allowed to talk about with games until the games are over. I'm very superstitious when it comes to my Red Sox. I'm the most superstitious man you'll ever meet when it comes to my Red Sox. I know a lot of fighters like,

Oh, Connor McGregor, you don't, if you're superstition, his weakness. Like, I don't care, man. I grew up watching Bull Durham. You know that scene where he's like, whatever gets you out the door? And I was like, that's exactly. So I'm wearing this hat until the game's over. All right, fair enough. Fair enough. I don't want to mess with your superstition. But let's talk some MMA. Let's talk some combat sports. Let's talk about the big story that happened this past weekend in MMA. And no, it was not the main event of the UFC card. No, it was not the main event of the Bellator event. It was the co-main event of the UFC

card in the middleweight division. Kevin Holland took on Kyle Dachas. Fun fight. We got to see Kevin Holland's wrestling defense a tiny bit until there was a collision of heads. Holland was nearly knocked into the middle of next week. Big Dan calls for a replay, but allows the fight to continue. Dawkins ends up getting control, getting a submission, and upon further review in like 15 minutes and 15 to 20 people collaborating together, the fight is ruled officially a no-key- contest. So, Damon, let us begin with you. First off, was this the right call? And secondly, how do you think this whole thing was handled looking back on it five days ago? It was handled about as badly as you can handle a refereeing situation. Considering that Dan Mergliata

acknowledged the head clash in the cage enough to call for a replay, didn't actually pause the action for an accidental foul, but he continued to let the fight go. Kyle Dachas gets a standing rear naked choke finish. And then afterwards, Dan is outside talking to Herb Dean and Mark Ratner, and I think Sean Shelby was over there too. I mean, at what point do we just say this is, this is as corrupt as you're going to get when you actually invite the freaking promotion into your decision making with the actual call you're making in terms of the fight? I mean, this was as bad as it gets in terms of call. Now, listen, I don't think a fight should be determined on an accidental foul, but in this particular case, the referee let it go.

I mean, are we going to go back in a race Deveson Figuerreiro's win over Joseph Benavides? Because do we forget that Joseph got rocked by the headbutt? Axel clash of heads, same thing. And then he was hurt, and then Devesant took over and knocked him out and finished him. And, you know, and again, didn't win the title because he missed weight. But he didn't get that winner race from his record. And that was almost the exact same situation. Dan Mertlietta is the one who screwed up here.

He should have paused the fight and allowed Kevin Holland time to recover and then restart it. Or if it can't continue, then it's a no contest. That's how it works. But he didn't. And then Kyle Dachas gets the submission. I think the right call would have been based on Dan screw up. And let's be clear about this, Dan screwed up. Dan screws up a lot.

But Dan screwed up. Kyle Dachas lost his win bonus. They should have allowed that Kyle Dachas to get the win. and then run it back. I know that sucks for Kevin Holland, that it's no fault of his own, that he has a loss on his record, but stealing,

take it away Kyle's win money, and then rebooking the fight anyways, seems so egregious to me, especially considering the way it all played out when you're asking Mark Ratner and the UFC matchmakers, what's the right call here when you already screwed it up in the cage? That was so confusing because even Brendan Fitzgerald was like, all right,

I think they're going to announce that Kyle Dachis is the winner, and then they announce the no contest, and everybody was completely confused by this entire situation. Jose, what were your thoughts? Like going back and looking at it, reading about it, so forth and so on, five days later, was the right call made? How do you think it was handled? I mean, I think the right call would have been made if they stopped the fight at the initial head clash.

But the fact that the fight, as Damon said, continued on, like, every person in the, like, I'm pretty sure, like, the fans could see what was happening. Because, again, let's not forget, the fans are in attendance now. So it's this real tiny venue. I don't know if either of you guys have been. Well, Mike, you've never been to Las Vegas, correct? Never. And, Damon, have you been to Las Vegas?

You've been to Vegas, but not since the apex is really open, right? So when you go in there, you can see everything that's happened in Cadeside if you're a fan. Like, there are seats all 360 degrees around, but it's like high school bleachers. It's like an auditorium. So there's a thousand people in there. All 1,000 people can hear the conversations going on. So A, if they're going to do it, go do it somewhere else, not around the fans and agree with 100% with Damon. Don't allow the promoter to be involved with this.

This should be solely a commissioned referee thing. If they had stopped the fight on the initial class, because we've all seen the gift a thousand times, if Kevin Holland basically woke himself up by bouncing his head off the canvas. And even his interview with Aaron Hawan, he's like he doesn't remember defending with the triangle. He does remember defending the Dars. I don't remember defending or going for like a rear naked choke or whatever. So it's all, it's like, it's so unfortunately, it's unfortunate because I remember this, we've seen this before. Like who was it that that knocked out Saba Hamasi in Detroit at USC 218?

It was a knockout victory, but Herb Dean messed up. So they, like Damon said, I believe it was Abdul Al-Al-Hazap. Al-Hazakh, is that his name? The one that, uh, Al-Sahun. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I could never pronounce the name, but he knocked out Saba Hamasi at USC 218 in Detroit. And then Herb D messed up, and they rebooked it for like two, like a month later at UFC 220.

And he just knocked him out again. So he got double win bonus. So like, do that. Like, agree with Dawkins. Like, I feel bad for him. It's not his fault that was the accident. Clash ahead. And he did get the victory.

And he got his win bonus taken away. And we've all heard the fighter paid thing. So paychecks are probably, I don't know, they are the most important thing to a fighter. right now. I also think it's real weird. Like when do they rebook this? November? November 13th.

So a lot, not a lot of time between getting knocked out and choked out in a single fight and then getting a real quick turnaround. I probably would try to book this in December, maybe January. But you know, Kevin Holland's a crazy man. It doesn't have to cut a lot of weight. But yeah, it's just horribly handled all around. And I feel bad for Dawkins and Kevin Holland for how the situation was handled. But I, again, if they had stopped the fight after the initial clash ahead,

and just ruled the no contest right there. Drama averted, but we're still talking about this four days, five days after the fight. Yeah, November 13th just seems so odd because Dacus is like, let's book it early next year. And Holland's like, let's just do it before Christmas. And they're like, no, we'll do it before Thanksgiving. We'll do it right before, right in between Halloween and Thanksgiving. Forget your Christmas. So here's what I have found interesting about this whole conversation because I actually, like at first I thought it was,

I had no issue with the no contest only because, Big Dan, and it was a screw up, a monumental one, he like, at least flagged for the replay. So like, all right, you flagged for it. I don't know what the rules are. It was a whole mess up. The whole thing was a mess. But people are like, when they think back on this whole thing, they're like, and they look at the history of refereeing and rules and MMA and taking the sport to the next level

and evolution, this fight, that moment will be a pivotal moment in the novel of refereeing and judging and all this stuff. Like we went to replay and it was such a big moment and like thank God this happened because now the sport can evolve. Do you agree with that, Jose? Like have you seen people talk like this and do you feel like that moment as bad as it was might actually be a really good thing moving forward? Well, you have to fail to move forward, I guess. You know what I'm saying? Like you can only like if you find the screw ups early, unfortunately it's the UFC.

So any mistake they make, all eyes are going to be on them. I can't like. Wasn't there something weird with like when. Jesse Jess Fossar Alpar, like last June or last July or something like or September, whatever it was. They did like weird, a replay system too. And she didn't quite understand what was happening. But people didn't really talk about that because it was kind of lower on the card.

And I think the right outcome happened. But you don't, you have to fail to find out what your faults are. So I hate to say that Kevin Holland getting knocked out, choked out, and Kyle Dawkins losing his paycheck will eventually benefit the sport. but I'll say maybe because I don't know man the UFC just needs to figure something out right out of the gate

don't let Sean Shelby and Mark Ratner anywhere near those replays like that they should have their own thing like take him to another room or like who's the guy they call in on the NFL and he like explains the situation don't let that be Mark Ratner let that be a referee

you got to fail to move forward but I'll believe it when I see it as I say with everything in the UFC because it's nice to talk about things, but until it's a reality, I just don't believe it's going to happen at all in the UFC. It's very rare, Damon, that we find a situation that's so awfully handled, but people try to find silver linings in MMA, and I feel like people have tried to find one with this. Do you find anything here? Like, do you feel like that moment, as horrible as it was, like maybe

it'll lead to a better future in terms of replay and refereeing, so forth and so on? No, and absolutely not, because here's the problem. Dan Merglietta saw the clash of heads. He saw the clash. There was no replay needed. He saw the clash of heads and then just chose not to pause the fight. And then afterwards, he said, oh, my bad. Let me watch this replay.

It's something I already saw it acknowledged. And now we're going to call it a no contest. I agree in terms of, like, replay becoming a more usable asset, like what Jose said, like, you have to fail to move forward. I agree with, like, eventually replay becoming a better part of MMA. But ultimately, it's, you know, still the referee making a terrible call. This reminds me, and this is not a replay situation,

but it reminds me of the inconsistency in some of these calls. When you think about what happened to Algini and Sterling, getting basically, you know, need in the head knocked out by Peter Jan. That's declared a disqualification. Then you look back a couple of years ago with Dustin Porre and Eddie Alvarez. He took two or three blatant knees in a row while he was down. And Herb Dean says, oh, no, no, no, it was accidental. And it's a no contest.

Like, there's no consistency, so it can't get better if we're still doing this like five years later. And again, the problem is, ultimately, beyond the actual no contest, which is an issue in and of itself, is Dan Mergley ought to screwed up. And the replay shouldn't have been necessary in the first place. The fact that he acknowledged it in the cage waved over and said, let's do this replay, but didn't actually stop the fight, is the antithesis of issue of problematic refereeing. in this sport. I acknowledge referees have an impossibly hard time,

have an impossibly hard time. And listen, I'll be honest. If Dan had missed the clash of heads, weirdly, I would actually absolve him a little bit from this. But he freaking acknowledged it in the cage. Once you acknowledge it, then you're, that's it. The replay is done. There should have been no replay because he freaking saw it happen. If he just missed it. And listen, I was watching the fight.

I missed it. I didn't see it immediately. When they replayed, it was like, oh, man, they really did clash heads. didn't see it. They came together so quickly. It's a rapid fire sequence. And of course, we're dealing with camera angles. We're not right there in the cage. So we're not going to have the same camera. We're not going to have the same angle as Dan Bergliata. But yeah, like, he acknowledged she saw the freaking foul and just did. That's like watching a guy getting field goal kicked in the nuts and then be like, oh, well, we'll deal with it after the

round. Just keep going. Oh, man. So let me just bounce back on this real quick. And then we'll move on, Damon. I saw like different, like Luke Thomas, for example, and he had an interesting point about referees just having a really hard job and like spur of the moment. Sometimes it's hard to catch that. Maybe Dan saw it. Maybe he didn't. Maybe that's why he just called for the

replay because he had no idea what the hell was going on. Be that as May. He suggests that we got to take the responsibility of these fights off of just one person. Maybe he had a second guy, like a, like an enforcer. Like Mike Tyson was at WrestleMania 14. Just on the outside of the cage, he's just like

a second pair of eyes. If you need him, you can tag him in. He can sort of be the, the third and fourth eyeballs if needed when it comes to these kinds of situations. Do you agree with that? Or is there like a better fix to this? Well, the problem, the problem with that, and I agree, I mean, in theory, yeah, I like it. But the problem is so many of these sequences happen so rapid fire that you almost feel like if you, like, let's say hypothetically, Dan Mergaly out of missed the head, but miss the clash of heads and the fight continues. Now, this all happened within a matter of seconds, really. I mean, once Kevin Hollow went down, it was rapid fire, boom, boom,

leading into the rear naked choke. Now, they called the clash heads during the broadcast. So there's an outside referee watching this on the replay, and they pause the fight in that moment. And we can do it quickly. And they say, whoa, whoa, whoa, pause the fight. And they actually stop it, you know, and pause the fight due to a foul. I guess that's where it would work.

But the problem is I just find, I find it highly unlikely that that would be consistent to where it would actually ever have a true impact in the fight as it's happening. And again, if you're going to allow the fight to continue, it has to play itself out. And ultimately, what this feels like to me is we just rob Kyle Dacus of his win bonus. It's not either one of their faults. It's not like Kyle Dachas went in there and old school Mark Coleman head butted him to win the fight when it was legal, by the way. When the hammer used to drop his head down, it was legal. But like, if it's an accident and they're both, they both rushed in head first and they clash heads.

Unfortunately, Kevin Holland got the worst of it. but again, all it feels like we're doing here is Robin Kyle Dawkins is win bonus if they're going to run it back anyway. So no, I don't know that that's a fix because I don't know that it would fix anything. All we can hope for is like in that situation, Herb Dean outside the cage sees it, raises the red flag and says pause the fight. But can we really imagine that happening in that rapid fire sequence

where the fight's over 45 seconds later? I just don't know if that's the answer. What do you think, Jose? What would you do with that? And maybe we don't throw a red flag in the area. Maybe we just throw like a loud buzzer in the arena. And the referee is just, the second referee can just push the bottom and goes, and everyone just stops.

And then we figure it out. Like, how do we fix this? Or can this be fixed? It's just be a better ref? It's hard. It's hard to say because like, the answer should be there should be someone outside that can like pause the fight or whatever. But like it's, this is a fist fight.

This is combat sports. You can't, a human being can't always stop. a punch mid punch on the on the stop of a dime like how many times that we accidentally see an inadvertent light punch because they're like they're in exchange and then the end of the round buzzer comes and there's that blow like who is it jo schilling's to this day says that accidental light blow is what blew up donald serone's eye in the tony ferguson fight so you don't want to see something like that where he puts his guard down and then because of a buzzer and then he takes one a knee between the skull and then his all of a sudden uh the man can't

remember anything and they stop the fight like there and then it's just all of a sudden draw them all around i don't know what the answer is obviously be a better referee uh i wish red cards and yellow cards still existed like in pride just because those are fun um but i don't know it's it's a cheap answer but i don't know what the answer is other than just be better uh weed out all the bad referees because it's like the same conversation we had with like mowlb umpires NFL umpires like what do we do you can't really automate a combat sports referee like they're trying to do in baseball like yeah replays in baseball you can determine a home run but a replay in mama after the fact the other person's

already felt physical pain they're already don't know what's happening they're not losing a point they just might have to continue fighting or the fight just ends and all of a sudden they put seven weeks into their training camp for not so i don't know what the end I don't know if there should be a quote-unquote enforcer. Maybe this should just be a second and third set of eyes on a monitor that, again, Mark Ratner and Sean Shelby can't go to, but I don't know what they can do in terms of like halting a fight mid-fight. Well, it'll be an interesting discussion at these upcoming commission meetings, especially

when the ABC gets together for their annual meeting. Maybe this can be something that can be discussed. But we will discuss some other things. A very big story that happened a little over a week ago, almost two weeks. ago now that we didn't get to talk about last week we got everything going on but we're going to talk about that right now but the point for one goes to Damon who was just on fire

Ben just on a tear this week just nobody is safe right now not one single person I never I'm by far the one that is least educated in commission ruling so yeah obviously I he won't in that. Black Friday is here at IKEA and the clock is taking on savings

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Let's talk about the chaos in the UFC's Banimate Division. So we confirmed a little under two weeks ago right now that Al Jemaine Sterling has some neck issues from the surgery that he had. He is out of the fight on October 30th against Piotr Yan, the rematch. The UFC has pivoted to an interim title fight between Piotr Yon and Corey Sanhagen on October 30th, the co-main event of that card. So, Jose, let us start here because we haven't talked about this really since it happened on this kind of a level. What was your reaction to finding out that Al Jemaine

Sterling would not be competing on October 30th and more so the backlash that this man continues to receive especially in a situation like this not surprised not surprised because alzerman sterling member he said like he wanted to fight in December November and then the UFC pushed for October so he goes all right I guess I'm fighting on October because remember he backstage case is now were backstage for the conne mcgregor Dustin poir-yard card and alzerman sterling was one of the guest fighters and he said he wasn't even cleared to train in July. And they're like, oh, now they're talking about October when they could just wait a week and I could fight in New York and even that might be too early. So after that, I remember like our

colleague Oscar Wilson and I were sitting next to each other. And he's saying all this and we're looking at each other like, what that this man can't? There's no way this man fights in October. There's no way. So when they announced that, it was more of an inevitability. It was more like, why did it take so long for them to announce Al Jalda and Sterling couldn't fight? Because he's saying he's probably not going to be ready in October. So like, again, And another not surprising thing is the UFC booking a fighter that's not medically cleared to fight because, you know, they just got to fill their time slots. And I know they're legally obligated to give Abu Dhabi two title fights a card every time they go like every numbered event. So that's why there are two title fights on this card because the UFC has to give it to them.

Because it's like contractual reasons whatsoever. Because then people are saying like, oh, if he could fight in like first quarter, 2022, why did they make an interim title? Well, A, Al-A. Al-Misterling has no idea when he can return it. D. T. de Dillishaw from the M. M.M.A. hour yesterday as of this recording, Algeman Sterling probably won't fight again in his mind, and the UFC has to give two title fights to fight Ireland.

So, not surprised at all that Algebra Sterling is fighting, and we've all experienced M.MA fight fans just being ridiculous on the internet. I mean, they say people are scared all the time for a reason. Like what? What they boo, like, again, I bring this up all the time. Tony Ferguson's fault Benile Dary Use.

Bneal Dary Us builds orphaned. on his off days. And they boo the man just because they like Tony Ferguson. So, MMA fight fans are the most bizarre group of individuals I've ever met in terms of any sport fan because they'll find, they'll cheer the man that is like, yeah,

I broke my students' ribs because he deserved it. And then boo the man that's talking about building orphanages after this fight. So, no, I'm not surprised they're calling Algebra Sterling scared because apparently when you have major evasive neck surgery that might threaten your entire. method of income, that means you're scared to fight Peter Yan that you just fought for four and a half rounds. So not surprised, not surprised, not surprised, not surprised. Because you know, even if Al Jemay Sterling made it all the way and then lost, it would be, oh, you knew you were hurt and

you still took the fight. Now you're just making excuses, this and that. So no, anime fans are going to play no matter what. Unfortunately, Al Jal Jemissela Lerling has that Xbox heat right now where he could do it. He could say, he could be Kevin Holland and save a car. thief and they'll still find something wrong with him like oh you just beat up this guy for no reason he was stealing a car and then they'll find another reason to boo him so again feel bad for the situation all around but i'm glad algerman is not competing in a fist fight with a medically uncleared neck that's the end of the story what have you made of all this damon because we were sort of the duo that first released this information to the world that sterling wasn't going to fight and

And of course, immediately Twitter blows up and Instagram blows up. You get the tags and all this stuff. And everyone's just calling him a wuss and he's scared and all this stuff. Like, are you surprised by any of this? No, I'm not. And to Jose's point, Jose, let me just bring this up real quick. If he actually did stop a car thief, the fans would say, well, you can stop a car thief. Why can't you fight on October 30th?

That's what they'd say. No, I'm not surprised at all. I mean, I legitimately feel bad for Al Jermaine Sterling, you know, getting rushed back into a fight, and nobody should be surprised that that happened. I mean, the UFC just crowned an interim heavyweight champion in August when the new champion, one of the most marketable guys on the entire roster, Francis and Gondon, became champion four months earlier, four months earlier, and they're currently an interim champion. Why?

Because they need a title fight to headline a card. And ultimately, that's all, that's the only reason that happened. They didn't, it wasn't the fact that in Ghana who wanted to wait until September to fight. They needed the title fight on the August pay-per-view, and the only option available was the heavyweights. And so they crowned an inexplicable interim champion. Them rushing back Al Jermaine on October 30th when he said, and I remember talking to Al Jameen back right when he was going to have the surgery, or maybe it was right after he had the surgery, he told me at that point, probably November, December, it would be the earliest I could come back.

Maybe December, I think, is what he told me. And then October 30th comes around. I was like, okay, that's kind of surprising, but okay, why is anyone shocked that the UFC is rushing somebody back before they're actually ready? And if he had fought and lost, just like Jose said, they would say, well, you're making excuses, your neck, you jumped in to fight. We know how this works. The UFC has so much control over these guys that they don't feel like there's another way out. Because if he would have turned it down initially in July and said, I can't fight guys, I'm not clear, I won't be ready until December. they'd already have either an interim title fight booked or they would have stripped him.

I guarantee you, and for anyone that doesn't think they would have done that, I'll tell you right now, a little behind the scenes info here. There's a certain champion in this organization that was a very long-reigning, very great champion by the name of Steve Rieuch, heavyweight champion. He was threatened to be stripped numerous times during his reign because they were negotiating with him on contracts. I know these stories have kind of been out there before. But like this is a common occurrence with the UFC.

So if Al Jermaine turns it down, one of these bad things, were going to happen to him, either stripped or they're just going to immediately, you know, do a interim title. I'm actually shocked they didn't strip him this time just for the sake of doing it and say, well, he's injured. We don't know if he'll ever come back. So we're going to listen to Dr. Dillishal, and we're not going to trust that Al Jamein's going to come back. So we're going to go ahead and strip him and do that. I'm shocked that didn't happen to be honest. So no, none of this surprises me. I feel really bad for Al Jemaine because the truth is. And again, none of this is his fault. That's the worst part about this.

Yes, okay, I understand. You can say he did need to have the neck surgery, but if his neck is hurting him so badly that it's affecting the way he fights, isn't that what you're supposed to do? You're supposed to fix the problem, and that's what he did. He fixed the problem. We can't, we can't, you know, bash the guy because a surgery takes nine months to come back from. That's just part of life.

That's science, folks. We can't, you can't rush it back just because you want it to happen. And so, yeah, I feel terrible for Algeman, because the DQ, that's not his fault. Yes, the surgery, I guess, technically was optional. But again, we want a guy to go in there as healthy as possible. His neck was clearly an issue and he wanted to get it fixed. We can't blame him because it takes nine months to recover from a surgery

versus six months to recover from a surgery. And ultimately, the blame goes on the UFC for rushing it back and trying to book it when it was already. And because, as Jose pointed out, they have a contractual obligation to Abu Dhabi to give them so many title fights. Guess what? That's the UFC's fault. That's not Al Jermaine's fault.

It's not his fault that they promised or signed a contract for whatever it is, five title fights a year, four title fights a year, or whatever the number is that they did this. So, yeah, Al J.Maine is kind of blameless in this situation. Also, T.J. Delishaw, well, I appreciate his expert medical analysis. I don't think anyone should be listening to that. I mean, no offense, his strength and conditioning coach and wrestling coach, who sell medical equipment

have told him he'll never fight again. Now, forgive me if I don't believe Dr. Dillishall, but let's let Al Jermaine and his doctors actually decide if he's going to fight again and not Dillishal saying, well, I have a guy, and I know a guy who tells me

he'll never fight again. Slow down on that one there, T.J. If we want advice on extra, if we want advice on supplements that aren't quite over the counter, we'll give you a call. Damn. Damon, it's just on another level this week. Unbelievable.

So, yeah, so now we got Corey Sanhagan in there. And, you know, a lot of people, and I've seen it already, why not Dillishaw? Well, we know why, because Dr. Dillishaw is doing his medical dissertations, and he's hurt. He's had surgery himself. So he's going to be out until the beginning of next year. And then a lot of people are like, well, why isn't Rob Fonton here? Well, Rob Font was offered this fight before Corey Sanhagen was offered this fight. Rob could not do it.

he's getting that's why he's not fighting till December. And there are some other interesting names that I can't really reveal that we're thrown into this conversation as well that were kind of mind-boggling. But we've landed on Corey Sanhagen. This fight has been despite an exit and now it being an interim title fight, this fight's been pretty universally praised. They're like, damn, this is good. Jan versus Sanhagen and a lot of people's opinion, these are the two best 135 pounds in the world. So, Damon, your thoughts on Sanhagen getting the opportunity here to fight for a title, despite, coming off the quote unquote loss to T.J. Dilleshaw.

And as a fight fan, and I'm interested, obviously, from a rivalry standpoint to see what would happen in this rematch between Sterling and Jan. But as a fight fan, X's and O's guy, is this the more interesting fight? Okay, let's take out all, you know, let's literally take away everything we know about this fight and just focus on these two guys. They made the right call with Corey Sanagan. I agree. Rob Pant, you know, in terms of wins and losses, the streak he's on, you know, hypothetically deserved it more, but he turned it down. He was given the opportunity.

So that's not on Corey Sanhagen. I truly believe Corey Sanhagan beat T.J. Dillashaw, and I didn't really think it was that close. I thought he won, I believe, four rounds to one. And I rewatched a couple of times. The close rounds were only close because Corey was inactive. I thought he won that fight. I really didn't think it was that controversial. I thought he should have won. So I'm fine with him getting the title shot. And I said this right when the fight got made, we're making the best out of a bad situation. I mean, Corey Sanhagan, in my opinion, is the true number one contender in the division anyways, because I thought he beat T.J. Delishaw, which would have put him on a better streak with

the Marlon Marius knockout, the Frankie Edgar knockout. He would have been the next guy in line anyhow. So I'm okay with him getting the title shot. In terms of matchup, listen, I was still intrigued by Al Jermaine and Yon because we really didn't get to see the way that fight played out. Yes, Yon was winning the fight. It looked like it was going to go in his favor anyways, but you can ever say 100% certainty it would have ended that way. So I am, I was curious on the rematch, especially after Al Jermaine had his neck surgery.

And if he was healthy, I was curious to see how much that might affect his wrestling, his ability to do takedowns, things like that. But that being said, I do like Corey Sanhagen and Peter Jan as a fight. It's an incredible matchup. Corey, with his striking, his dynamic striking, this kind of creative

ability, he's kind of mustard in these last three or four fights where he's throwing spinning kicks and flying knees and doing all these kind of crazy moves that he never really uncorked early in his career. And now he's really doing damage with that. And we've seen Peter Yan as good as Peter Jan has been. And he's been incredible. He does get hit. We have seen him take hits before. We have seen him in the Jimmy Rivera fight, some other fights where he does get hit. And you can't do that against the guy like Corey Sandhagen because he will highlight real you. So I love this

matchup. Let's take away all the drama outside of it, feeling bad for Al Jermaine. And in a way, kind of feeling bad for Rob Fonthe, that he had to pass up on this because I think, you know, a guy like him would be fun to see him in a title fight. But ultimately, I think we got the best fight possible, the most deserving guy in terms of performances, because I think he won and beat T.J. Dillishaw, and then you get those two highlight real knockouts over Marias and Edgar.

So, yeah, I love this matchup. And I'm, you know, again, aside from the drama, I am slightly more excited about this one because I really wanted to see Corey Sanhagen in a title fight. Jose, you say it all the time, high-level martial arts competition, and it's hard to find much better competitively than these two guys. So as a fan, do you prefer this matchup? Like, like Damon said, taking all the drama out of it, Aljo, everything. Just two guys in there.

If we're comparing, what fight you would you rather see? Sterling Yan or Sanhagen, Jan, which one are you going with? Oh, man, that is tough. Taking out all drama aside, I don't know. I still can't decide. because again, if you look at MMA fighting's global rankings, the only rankings that matter, even though I don't even have a vote, nor do I choose to have a vote. T.J. Yon and Sterling, T.J. Jan Sterling and Sanhagen are 1, 2, 3, 4.

Dillishaw's out, Sterling's out. So by rule, process of elimination, because in my opinion, I've said this a thousand times, I do think wins and losses matter and rankings matter in this sport. Sanhagen is next man up. the rob obviously rob font coming off the big win on that big on that long winning streak probably would have been my preference mostly because i just want people coming off wins but i think what you said high level martial arts competition and with all of that drama involved like we include all of that like we've all agreed on i also scored the fight for cori sanhagen against t j dillish i had a three to two but four to one is fine too at the end of the day we can all just agree cori sanagan won that fight or should have won that fight. Al Jermaine Sterling was about to lose to Peter Yon. So if Peter Yon does it throw an illegal knee and Corey Sanhagen gets one of those judges to put his glasses on, this is the fight that's going to happen anyway. Maybe it's not on these terms, but it's going to happen anyway. And Corey Sanhagen was actually on the A side. And he said whenever there's a Bannonweight title

fight that's about to happen and he doesn't have a fight, he just gets ready because he saw the blueprint that Kamara Usman did. He, Kamara Usman stayed ready all of the time. Like he cut weight to Wayne as a backup for Darren Till, Tyron Woodley. He took these fights against like the Damien Myers and what, where was that

fight? Chile or something great, like somewhere down there and then he took the fight against RDA on like the ultimate fighter finale, which is like the day before like a major pay-per-view. He took these main events that other people may not have wanted and he cut weight when he might not have had to. And then at the end of the day,

the U of C rewarded him when they tried to make, who was it, Colby. Colby and Camaro in January, and then it didn't happen, or Colby and Tyrant in January, and then they ended up canceling the pay-per-view, and then they gave the next title shot to Camaro because Camaro Ouzman played ball with him. Corey Sanhagen understood that, and he says, I'm going to cut weight,

I'm not going to cut weight, but I'm going to get ready just in case. So if you were going to ask me who in the top 10 is ready for a last-minute title fight against an absolute savage in Peter Rion. The answer is Corey Sannhagen. And I think it was you, Mike, who did you interview? Cody Stamen, and he said the scariest person in this division is Corey Sankaghanag. Did he not? Yep.

So kudos to Corey Sannhagen. Everyone's talking about Dan Hooker just being an absolute savage because of his travel situation and everything. But Corey Sannhagen is also doing something pretty unprecedented where he might, like if he loses badly to Peter Rion, which I'm not saying he will. Who knows if he gets another title fight anytime soon, but at least he's positioning himself career-wise to look good in the eyes. of the UFC because we just talked about how the UFC didn't do Algebra in any favors.

Maybe down the road, they go, oh, Corey Sanagan saved this card. We'll not say this card. He helped us out. Maybe we'll help him out down the future because we've all seen this. You scratch the UFC's back. They'll help you out most of the time. I'm not saying all the time, most of the time.

So again, but again, Sanhagen Yon checks all the boxes if there's no title fight. So 10 out of 10 across the board for me. last thing on this because i could talk ban and white division all day long but i didn't think we'd be talking about such chaos this late in the year but here we are obviously jose sterling out he's probably going to get the winner god willing his his neck heals up good he gets the time to recover he gets the winner of yon versus sanhagen who's the biggest loser here is it t j dillishaw

is it rob font is it jose aaldo is it some of these other guys on the come up because this division obviously is on a little bit of a of a standstill with all of this going on now you go away for sterling to come back and now we have all these contenders that are you are that have compelling arguments to fight for the belt right now it doesn't look like it's happening anytime soon for any of these guys who do you think loses out the most here um when i say lose i'm not it's hard because you'd have to just again process of elimination it'd have to be fond aldo just because the timetables might not line up because you don't know when alger main's coming back say alger main everything goes according to plan.

And he says like, and he comes back like beginning and next year. And then T.J. Dillishal, what did he say? March, April. And he was very adamant of there in Hwana, that he is getting the winner. He was promised the winner. So if everything goes right and again, let's let's not forget. TZ Dillishal blew his knee out in the first round against Corey Sainaghan. And then still quote unquote won.

What happens if Peter Rion wins and he blows his knee out in the first round against Corey Sengen? And all of a sudden we have an interim title who can. can't fight for another like eight, nine months. So let's let that play out first before we can play all this hypothetical game. So, but if T.J. Yolashal fights in March, can fight in March, and then Al Jermaine can fight in March, that means T.J. J.J. Shaw is going to have to even longer because, again, neck injuries, you want to take some time off between fights, even if you do win. So process of elimination, just because they might have to wait a long time is Fon Aldo. And Aldo seems down to fight anyone ranked above him. Rob Fon seems a little

more like if Rob Font wins, I would assume he's going to wait for a title shot. It seems like one of those guys that would be smart with his career. Aolo just seems down to fight whoever, whenever, wherever. So if Aldo waits and then someone else emerges, Aldo might just fight the dude because he loves to fit, getting a good

old fashioned fist fight. So Procive elimination, Rob Fon, solely because he might have to wait the longest first. We might not be talking about Rob Fon fighting for a title shot until fourth quarter, 22 if he beats Jose Aaldo this December. Daman, true or false, T.J. Dillishaw's next fight will be for a title.

False. False. I don't see it. I mean, listen, I understand where he's coming from in terms of, you know, in theory, he just beat Corey Sandhagen, who was the number one guy. Now, I don't buy, his argument, and I feel like it's going to be like, let's take shots at T.J. Dilichhal hour with Damon right now, but that's not what I'm really trying to do. but TJ's argument, I never lost the title, I didn't really lose it. Well, dude, you cheated. You got busted for EPO. You got suspended for two years. I don't care that you didn't lose the title in a fight. You lost the title because you cheated.

And also, I hate the idea that he keeps saying, I surrendered it. I gave it up. You would have given it up anyways. It would have taken it from you if you hadn't, you know, beat the press by 24 hours and said, I'm giving up my title to save face, basically. I'm sorry. I don't buy that argument that just because he was. was the champion never lost in the cage. Well, he'd lost because he cheated. I don't care that it was

a flyway. I don't, none of that matters to me. So let's just go based on wins and losses. Now, him coming back and getting a win over Corey Sanhagen, legitimate or not, that makes him the number one contender. I agree with that part of it. But the problem is if he's going to be ready in March or April, I mean, we're talking about, I mean, remember when Cyril gone beat Derek Lewis knocked him out fourth round, I believe. They were immediately saying, oh, how soon could we do the Francis Ngano fight? They're not doing it until January. If Gaon isn't hurt, he wasn't, you know, he wasn't banged up during that fight.

He wasn't, you know, didn't have a service or anything. They did, they waited until January, like four or five months later to book that fight. Do we really think if Peter Yan or let's say, Corey Sanhagen wins on October 30, they're going to book him in Algemane in December? No, they're not going to do it. They already have three title fights in December. They're not going to book that for December. And the way it's looking, we're looking at Inganu, and they're talking, about Adasanya Whitaker, too, in January.

Guess what? February is probably the earliest, and that's like pushing it. The earliest we would see Al Jermaine against the winner of Yon Sanhagen. If Dillishal is going to come back in March or April, we're talking probably at least like September, October before another title fight would happen. I have a hard time believing a guy who just sat out for two years, double shoulder surgery, won a controversial decision, and then has a knee surgery, is going to sit out for basically another year waiting. and hoping he gets a title shot, while at the same time,

let's say a guy like Rob Fott goes out, and let's say he beats Jose Aldo. I don't know that he will. Jose's looked fantastic his last couple of fights. But let's say he beats Joseo. Who's going to complain about Rob Fott being the true number one contender at that point? The streak he's on, getting a win over a legend like Jose Alto, a convincing win, let's say? Or is anyone going to say he doesn't deserve it ahead of T.J. Dillershal

with one highly controversial win coming off a two-year suspension? I mean, really? Will we really complain that Rob Font gets the title shot? So, no, I don't think he's going to fight for the title next. I think, unfortunately, for T.J., as much as he wants it, he's going to have to eventually swallow that. And I think Fade, face the winner of Rob Font and Josealdo, and then a true, legit, number one contender will be crowned out of that fight.

And it's a fantastic fight. T.J. against Aldo is great. T.J. against Rob Font would be great. So I think that's going to be his next fight. I love the Bannamweight Division. This is kind of unfortunate, but we have, Now it opens up the doors for some very fascinating fights moving forward into 2022. And we could talk about this division all day long.

We will move ahead. But the point for round number two goes to Jose Young's, the fan of a baseball team, which we shall not name right now on such a big day in Major League Baseball and playoff action. So let's move ahead. We have talked a lot about the first two conversations. So let's talk about Scott Coker's appearance on the MMA hour, on Wednesday. He dropped a lot of nuggets, some interesting things, including asking about what's next for the hero of MMA this year, Big Tuna, Ben Parrish, who by the way is still not signed to a deal,

which is mind-blowing to me at this point. But there are three really interesting pieces of business, and Damon, we'll start with you. One, we have Chris Cyborg's next title fight against Shade Kavanaugh. It's going to take place at the Hard Rock in Hollywood, Florida. Scenic, Hollywood, Florida. A very interesting fight on November 13th. It's somebody for Chris Ibrook to fight. It's basically my reaction to that. We also found out that Patricia Pitbull is no longer the Bellator lightweight champion. He vacated the title, opened the door for his brother, Patrici Pitbull, who will fight Peter Quilly for the vacant title in Dublin coming up at the beginning of next month. And then we found out that all non-title main events for Bellator

beginning January 1st, 2022, are all going to be five-round fights. So they finally caught up 10 years later to the UFC, at least have put this out into the universe. Of those three announcements, Damon, which one were you like, yes, the most? Well, none of them were like, yeah, I mean, I guess, okay, if I had to pick one to say I was most excited about it,

the one that made the most sense, it was the five-round main events. And as you said, they're 10 years too late. I mean, Mark Munoz and Chris Leibon happened in 2000. an 11 and then you know I mean come on like that's 10 years after that and there's so many fights I mean think about we just you know we've talked about you know on the ranking show we're talking about Michael Venn and page and Douglas Lehman I actually slipped and said I scored it three to think it was a five round fight because I'm so used to main events being five

round fights it was like mind-blowing to me I forgot it was only three rounds I don't know that anyone wanted to see five rounds of that fight but I wish we had two more rounds to really determine the winner same thing with you know you L Romero being confused that he wasn't in a five-round fight. Now, I don't buy that he didn't know it was a three-round fight, but again, he's the guy who's been in the UFC for so long. He probably, in the back of his head, he was preparing for five rounds. So that's the most exciting thing because it should have happened.

And Bellator does have a lot of non-title main events. Now, I don't know that we necessarily need a Czech Congo five-round main event anytime ever. So maybe that doesn't happen. But that's the best news, because we got to be honest, Chris Seiborg and Sheney, O'Connor, Kavanaugh. I looked at Shanaid, I've seen her record, absolutely no offense whatsoever to her,

but come on. I mean, she's going to be a, I mean, Chris Seiber's going to be a minus like 9,000 favorite in that fight. She's on a two-fight win streak. She's had two fights losing in Bellator, including a majority decision to Leslie Smith, who I love. Leslie's I love Leslie Smith, but she's been in two fights with Chris Cyborg. Neither

one of them looked even remotely close to being competitive. I don't see Sheney Kavanaugh being any kind of real threat to it's Chris Seiboran list. Chris just doesn't show up. It basically says, I'm not going to fight. So that's not compelling. And then the Patricio Pitbull thing was more annoying than it was exciting because the

guaranteed way to get your rematch with A.J. McKee is to defend your lightweight title against the guy who just sparked you in two minutes. That would have actually been a really exciting, you know, compelling story. Because as I argued yesterday on Twitter, the rematch off of a two-minute, you know, two-minute drubbing isn't all that exciting. I was one of those people who said as great as Joe Zaldo had been his entire crew. When you get knocked out in 38 seconds by Connor McGregor, I just, I'm not as interested in an immediate rematch.

I just don't. It's so definitive. I don't really need to see an immediate rematch. And so Patricio fighting the lightweight title against A.J. McKee in a rematch would have been a compelling storyline. But to give that up, and now you're just hoping that they can book you. And also, let's not forget, they got to negotiate with A.J. McKee here, too. They're trying to keep him happy. and re-sign him to a long-term deal.

How excited is he going to be now saying, oh, you want me to run it back with the guy I just demolished in two minutes, and that's what you're offering to get me excited to stay with Bellator and not test-free agency in another fight or two or whatever? So that, they blew that. And again, Cyborg Cavanaal is what it is. So, yeah, it's the five-round main events, 10 years too late. But, yeah, that's definitely the most exciting of the three.

What was your biggest takeaway, Jose, from these announcements? What was the one that kind of got you emotionally invested the most? Probably the five rounds solely because I had to cover the rumble the Romper, not the Rumble, the Romero Davis fight and the MVP Lima fight. And at all times I was like, God damn it. Like I just want two more rounds of this just because I'm tired of the drama at the end of it. Because I was all like the MVP Lima fight, I was so hyped for that fight solely because I was Cade side for the first fight.

So I was very excited to see the next fight. Plus I'm, as everyone in the NBA fighting knows, I'm a massive fan of Skepta. So anytime you can bring him out and put him on screen for 25 minutes, I'm all in favor of it. But I just don't want drama and controversy at the end of a fight. And anytime there's a three-round main event, there's usually always drama because the two fighters are normally so high level that it's the first three rounds. You kind of have that feeling out process where they're trying to figure each other out. And then we always say like, oh, after three rounds, championship round, it's this person's fight to lose. and then you just don't get that.

I mean, the UFC made this fake Diaz rule because the amount of, like, we've all heard it. Anytime a Diaz fan or fight goes three rounds, the fans are always, well, if there was four and five rounds, Nate Diaz or Nick Diaz, whatever, just run away with it, and so we don't get that anymore. So then they make up a rule just to prove that that is false. So, like, kudos to Bellator for doing what Damon said is 10 years too late.

So I guess that's what I'm most excited for because I'm tired of the drama. the Cyborg fight, it is what it is. I'm always excited to watch the best compete at whatever they do at any aspect. So as we can all agree with you know, Kavanaugh is probably just a body that they're bringing out for Chris Cyborg to beat. I think we all assumed it probably would have

been Katzenegano was next for Chris Cyborg. I would have been very excited for that because of their two names. Kazzygano is a very high-level fighter, former UFC title challenger. And then the Pitbull thing, I get what Damon is saying. If he wanted the rematch with AJ, he probably should have kept the light

weight belt, but I'm going to play devil's advocate, not necessarily that I believe in it, but kudos to Patricio Pitbull for not getting in the way of his brother's championship aspirations, because again, at the end of the day, championship belts are nice, and getting your rematch is nice, but if your brother

is on the cusp of potentially fighting for a title and you don't want to get in the way of the man, you know what, way to be a great brother, way to be, way to be, Wait to be a family man. And, you know, I completely understand that everyone is saying, like, oh, he gave up his ticket to the media rematch.

Patricio Pitbull, like, I know he wants to fight AJ at Featherweight. When Nate Diaz beat Connor the first time, everyone says, like, oh, now they can fight it lightweight again. That's their actual weight class. And Conner was like, nope, we're fighting at Welterweight. He beat me a Welterweight. I want to run it back at Welterweight. And I said, you know what? Goodos to you, man.

I may not agree with anything you do. I hope that if they ever fight the trilogy, it better be at Weltaway, too. I don't want any Tom Foolery. It's like, oh, this is a well, lightweight now, more drama. No, Weltaway, Weltaway, weltaway, well to wait. Same for Patricio. He just wants to prove he's the best fare the way in the world. So kudos to want to prove your doubt is wrong.

And kudos for being a great brother and not getting in the way of your brother's championship aspirations. So in that order, I'd probably say five round main events is the coolest. Patricie Pitbull versus Peter Quilly is going to be five rounds. It's also for the first title fight in Dublin, if I'm not mistaken, right? for Bellatory? Yes. So good on you, Bellator. The USC hasn't been

to Dublin. How long and how long has fight fans been calling for that? So they get a title fight against Petrieky Pitbull, Peter Quilly, which again will negate the drama of the first fight in five rounds. And then the Cyborg fight is what it is. I'm just excited to fight Cyborg fight. Okay, so

I like both of your takes on this whole Patricia Pipple thing. My thought, listening to all this was I think I was more aligned on the Jose side a little bit, but not in the same way. Like my first thought was, this is a brilliant move by Patricia Pitbull, because if I still think he gets the rematch regardless, because it's the biggest fight you can make for A.J. McKee and McKee right now because you're not, he's not fighting Volcanowski. He's not fighting Holloway.

What's he going to do? Fight Mads Bernel. Like, that's literally like the best fight he has right now outside of this rematch. And if you're Patricia Pitbull, like, fighting him at 155, even being the champion, yeah, that might raise your percentage of getting the rematch a little more. But now you're giving A.J. McKee an advantage. Like, the disadvantage A.J. McKee has in that fight is the cut to 145. Didn't really bother him in that first fight because he just ran through him and annihilated him. But still, like, if you're going to fight this guy again, you want to get him at his weakest point. And fighting at 155 does you no favors, fighting him at 45 to try to get that one back.

that's probably the best chance you have at beating him. Like it might, so that was my thought, Damon, what are your thoughts on that? Like, my first thought was like, yeah,

great brother, like you could spit it in that way, but I thought this is a, and you should be a little bit selfish in MMA. I thought this is kind of a selfish move to try to get back a little bit of a, a little bit of that aspect, so to speak. Yeah,

I mean, to a point. And I understand like what Jose said about the whole weight class thing with the, you know, the Connor Diaz thing. I get that too. I understand wanting it the same way class. You lost the guy.

at Featherweight, you want to beat him at Fedaway. But the problem is, is that Bellator has a legit marketable star right now in A.J. McKee, a guy they could build around. They have a legit guy who could be a... I mean, I think I'm a huge A.J. McKee fan. I think that guy has star potential for days. And that's the guy you can build around. That's the guy you can sell cards for eventually.

Maybe he's not there yet. But if you start building around him and start putting him out there and giving him opportunities like they did with having him on the Jake Paul Tyron Woodley card, which is very, very smart, put him out there. That's the star. Now, I'm not saying you have to cater to the stars totally like, let's say maybe UFC does for Connor McGregor, but AJ has a star power. And so in this case, like, I think, like, AJ, okay, maybe they booked the rematch with Patricio because they throw a bunch of money at AJ and they say do it.

And maybe there's part of AJ who wants to prove that this was no fluke and he wants to go out there and do it again. So maybe it happens. Maybe they went out. But it's still a gamble to me because I know from talking to AJ, in comments that AJ has made publicly, he really wants to move to lightweight. He really wants a chance to become champ champ. Who says that he doesn't watch that main event in Dublin? And let's say Patricie Pitbull gets revenge and beats Peter Quirley. Then he says, you know what?

I'm not going back to featherweight. I'm going to go beat up the other Pitbull brother. Then Patricio is not getting a shot either way. So again, did they take a risk? Did they make a gamble that could pay off? And Patricio and McKee, too, happened? Sure, and maybe it does. Maybe just ultimately, AJ just takes the money and says I'll do the rematch.

Okay, fine. I have no problem with that. But they're also gambling the fact that AJ isn't just going to be like, I have no desire to fight this guy right now. I'll just wait for the winner of Quealian Pitbull. I'll fight that guy and get the title. So I think it's a risk because then we're going to be with Patricio Pitbull against Mads Bernal. And is that any more compelling?

I don't think so. Jose, let me ask you this. If you could get, with this new ruling in place with the non-title five-round main events, if you get two more rounds of MVP Lima or two more rounds of Davis-Ramara, what are you going with? MVP Lima, for sure. Why? Because I've seen a Yo-O. Romero and Phil Davis five-round fight, and they're not always fun.

But their three rounds are a little more compelling and exciting than MVP and Lima's three rounds, were they not? It's just different types of compelling. Like I don't mind fights where I'm at the edge of my seat being like because I'm like I loved Izzy Anderson Silva. I wanted that fight to be five rounds because that was like a lot of faking and I was just like what's going to happen? What's going to happen? What's going to happen? I love those kind of fights.

I don't really like fight. Well, I don't want to say I don't like fights because at the end of the day like I'm not in the fight and whatever gets you the W I'm in favor of. I don't I'm not a proponent of boring fights versus unboring fights. I just think a fight is a fight. I've seen Yol Romero versus Israel-A-Sahna, and that was a lot of nothing, and I've seen Phil Davis fight a lot of five-round fights, and it's been a lot of nothing. Not that they haven't been competitive, but I've seen it. MVP versus Lima had a lot of, like, oh, almost, oh, almost, oh, almost moments. And I wanted two more rounds of that.

I haven't seen, like, I don't want an MVP versus Paul Daly five rounds, because that was by, that is the most disappointing fight that I have ever seen my entire. like anyone that follows me on Twitter knows I've been tweeting about that fight from the second paul daily side to bellator i don't need i don't hope but that's not how the fight was going lima came real close to knocking out MVP the exact same way he did the first time and MVP i don't want to say he was finding a ton of success but he was at least doing something on the feet and had decent risk control off his back and in the rounds three and four i mean four and five maybe lemma gets it done maybe gets on top of him and just grinds out two more rounds en route to a clear

3-2-4-1 victory or MVP lights him up on the feet. I have more questions that I want answered between MVP and Lima than I do Rumble, I mean, Romero, Phil Davis, if that makes sense. Fair enough, my man. So we will move on. Belator got a lot of love on the show.

So they should be feeling good about themselves. That's what happens and you come on and you actually promote and you're in the news for good reasons. And, you know, it's nice. Like, MVP and Lima have this big fight. It's this big rematch and nobody knew about it. Nobody knew about it. And here we are.

Scott Coker coming out doing interviews and breaking news. Bellator trying to keep this momentum alive to wrap up the year and head into 2022, which Scott Coker said is going to be a very big year for them. But we'll see what happens. We will move on to round number four. We're running out of time. The point for round three goes to Damon Martin. two to one. Good stuff, very good round.

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Returning to action this Saturday. Nice little afternoon card here on the East Coast. Some early morning action for the West Coasters. Main event, big one in the Strawweight Division. We got Mackenzie Duren taking on Marina Rodriguez. Of course, strawweight's a little messy right now because you got Rosnam Yunus fighting Zhang Wei, November 6th. You got Carla Sparza hanging out saying, what's going on?

Where's my title shot? And now you have this made events between Dern and Haudriguez. And Dern feels pretty confident if she goes out there and gets a win, she could jump a line and get the next title shot against the winner of Rose Namaunis and Zhang Wei Lee. So Jose, let us begin with you. What is really at stake here in this strawweight main event between Dern and Haudriguez? Do you agree with Dern? If she goes out there and beats Marina Rodriguez, Carlos Sparza, finish be damned.

You're going to be on deck. No, no. I think, ah. I want to say no, but we've all kind of seen that Dana White, just for whatever reason, just seems to hate Carla Sparza. So if they're, and I don't understand because she's like, she's done everything she needs to do. Like she's put together this long win streak.

And then the big knock on her was she didn't, she wasn't dominant and she wasn't finishing her opponents. And then she goes out there and finishes a person. Because you know if, uh, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, John, John, Nan had been in Carla, we're not having this conversation. Like, Jan Janon would have gotten the winner of Wayley Rose. The fact that it was Carla that won, as soon as she went, I was like, ah, it's probably not going to her because for whatever reason Dan White hates her,

even though she's doing what needs to be done. So my initial gut is no, but the fact that it's Carla, the door is open. The door is slightly open for McKenzie during the leapfrocker, and I have no issue if they make that fight happen, a number more contenders fight. Because then if Carla wins, then there really is no one else. But then again, I'm talking myself in a way. What if Jane Wey Lee wins? And they just decide to do the immediate rubber match.

And then that fight has to happen. So Rose Namibunas versus Zhang Wei Li, too, just sucks as matchmaking because there's so many things that could happen. I mean, the fight is fantastic. And I really wanted to see that rematch, but not immediately. Because I'm like, as Damon has interviewed Yuanah a few times, like she wanted either Rose or Zhang Wei Lee. And then now she comes back, then she adds a whole other rent to the situation because she just absolutely beat us. soul out of Carlos Sparza. It's just, I get

the matchmaking, but I don't get the matchmaking. But at the end of the day, it's the most UFC thing imaginable that this is now in Madison Square Garden. Which, again, isn't Rose, like, undefeated in New York anyway? So, like, that, she has that going for. So, oh, it just sucks so much. I feel bad

for Carlis Sparser, because she might get passed over by Yawanna and McKenzie Dern coming off after Saturday. So I don't. The door is open. If anyone's going to get leapfrogged, if any deserving number one contender is going to get leapfrogged, it's Carla Sparza.

Damon Marina Rodriguez is a tremendous fighter. She has the tools and she's only getting better. She could become a world champion. I don't think the UFC is going to put the rockets behind her to jump anybody and get into a title shot maybe until like 20, end of 2020, maybe 2023. But if McKenzie Dern wins, they see something there. They see superstar ridden all over her.

and it would not surprise me in the slightest to see her jump over Carla Sparza and get the title shot. As a matter of fact, Mackenzie Dern has said many times that before she got this Rodriguez fight, the UFC wanted to do Dern versus Asparza. After Sparza got the big finish in the last fight to do everything she needed to do to earn this title shot. So if McKenzie Dern goes out there and just dominates Marina Rodriguez, is Carla Spars are going to be left out somewhere being like,

what else do I have to do? How did I not get this next title shot? Probably. Probably so. I mean, the reality is McKenzie Dern, you know, yeah, she is extremely marketable. She's personable. You know, I did my feature on her this week, the Queen's Gambit, and I did the interview with her, whatever, it was 25-minute interview that's on video as well. She's, she's a great interview. She's so talkative. She's so bubbly. Her personality's great. She's, she's well-spoken. She's just got all the markings of a superstar. I mean, there's just no doubt about it, you know, and she's got an exciting style typically in the cage. I mean, her jujjjjiz. to is the best in the women's division. And now she's actually really truly using it. Like she's actually got her takedowns down. Her grappling is otherworldly.

And she's a horrible matchup for Marina Rodriguez. If you look at Marina Rodriguez's record, her two draws to Randah Marcos and I think it was Cynthia Calvillo are both grapplers. And then her other loss was Carlos Sparza, who was a grappler. McKinsey Dirt on paper is a terrible stylistic matchup for Marina Rodriguez.

So hypothetically, if McKinsey goes out there and gets the highlight reel, submission, finish, you know, whatever, first second round, 100%. They're going to immediately rocket her to potential titles. Now, like Jose said, I agree. If Zhang Wei avenges her loss and beats Rosen Omunas, I don't think it's going to happen. I believe Rose will win again. But if she does, then again, this is all a moot point because they're going to do in the

trilogy. And as Jose pointed out, you got Yowana, who's like a superstar, well-liked, you know, by fans and fighters who's sitting out there ready to, you know, poised like a cobra to strike and come back at the right time. If Zhang Wei Lee somehow, you know, beats, uh, beats Rose, then they're going to do the trilogy, or I wouldn't be shocked. They said, you know what, let's just go ahead and jump on, jump on doing Yowana and Zhang Wei twice, uh, the two, the second one, because it's just such a great fight and

we'll give Yuan an immediate rematch for a title. I wouldn't be shocked if they do that. Carla, unfortunately, is the odd woman out in this whole thing, and it breaks my heart for her because she did everything she needed to do to earn a title shot. She won the fight she was put into. All of them the most exciting? No. But it doesn't matter. As Jose said,

win how you got to win? And she won. And then she went out there and just put a beating on Jan Jan Jan Nian and did everything she needed to do and she still got passed over. So would I be shocked if McKinsey Dern gets an impressive win this weekend and suddenly becomes the number one contender? Not at all.

And especially with Yuan out there because if anything else happens, Watch this. McKenzie Derns is the number one contender, and they're like, you know what? We're going to do Yawanna and Carla too, because that one, that one needs to happen before Carla gets the title shot.

And as Jose expertly pointed out, she snatched Carla's soul the first fight. That's the one I can see them making, just be like, you know what, Carla? If you can get past the Terminator, you can go ahead and get your title shot. So no, McKenzie Dern be coming number one contender, through no fault of her own, by the way.

She'll be on a five-fight win streak and a very impressive one at that. she would be a legit contender. It just comes at the expense of Carlos Sparza. What a world. Of course, this card, that fight will cap off a 10-fight afternoon slate, which I am very excited about. Co-made event is Randy Brown versus Jared Gooden.

Tim Elliott versus Mateus Nicolao. It should be all sorts of fun. Maria Agapova, John Anik, Agapova back against Sabita Mazzo. Phil Haas versus Duran win. That is your main card. kicks off at 4 Eastern, and then some interesting prelims, including Alexander Romanoff against Jared Vandera, Chris Gutierrez versus Felipe Coleris, Charles Rosa, Damon Jackson be fun.

Lubida Godinez will welcome Silvana Gomez Juarez to the UFC, and then Steve Garcia gets an opportunity against Charlie on Tavaro. So not the best card, but should be fun and it's afternoon stuff, and you still have Saturday night to do whatever the hell you want. I just hope, I just hope Charles Rosa and Damon Jackson goes three rounds, because with each minute that passes, we get a better chance of one of the commentators calling him Damon Martin. That's my hope. And I feel bad for

Damon Jackson, but it seems to happen to him a lot. Is Paul Felder on the broadcast? Because if he's there, I'm putting money on Damon Martin's name being said at least once. It happened before, too. Joe Rogan did it during when Damon Jackson was in the UFC before. It was during a pay-review. So he did at that time,

and then the last one was Dominant Cruz and Paul Felder. There you go. And then your tweet was on the broadcast the last time. It was just, what a wild year it is bed. And so I don't even know what the score is, but let's just say we're going to, we're going to the knock our run anyways. It's two up. It's two up. It's two to two. So whoever, someone got the fourth point and we're going to the final run. You guys know how this works right now. It's really, there's really no winner or no loser. It's just we go in there. We debate and we keep this thing going.

So these gentlemen are just going to get one question, 60 seconds each to discuss and give their take and their thoughts. And then after the 60 seconds, we'll award a quote unquote winner, who will move on to next week. We get some big plans for. for the show coming up to wrap up the year. So stay tuned for that. In the meantime, Jose, you are the man. You have the victory under your belt. What do you want to do?

I'm going to let David Martin go first. He's going to fight on Saturday. Might as well get a early day here. All right, Damon. So we had some big news that went down last night. Holly Holm, injured, suffered a knee injury. She is out of her featherweight main event bout against Norma Dumont next Saturday. Then we find out multiple reports, and we finally confirmed it this morning as a done deal.

Aspen Ladd, who was supposed to fight this past weekend, missed weight, out of the fight with Macy Chesson. She's been sort of like public enemy number one, two, or three in the MMA world these days. But she is stepping up, moving up away class to 1.45, and we'll get her first UFC main event against Norma Dumont next Saturday at UFC Vegas 40. So, Damon, your thoughts on this whole thing, what this could do for Aspen Ladd, her reputation, especially with what's, with what has happened throughout this past week. And just overall thoughts about this actually headlining a UFC event in 2021. One minute on the clock, your time starts now. Let's first off address that the UFC is really stretching the limits of what they consider

a fight night card these days because man, oh man, some of these cards are just, just demonstrably bad. No offense whatsoever to Aspen, Lad, and Norman Dumas. But a lot of these cards, when you look at the undercard, you're just like, what? Like, how is this, like, being sold to us as a legitimate card? So that's first off. Second, you know, I'm not faulting Aspen Lad for taking this fight after what happened last weekend. I almost feel bad, though, because, you know, Macy Chiazon doesn't get to fight. She didn't get her bonus.

And that's because her opponent misweight. And Aspen, who looked like she was about to pass out on the scale, and fall over, you know, it's getting booked for a fight like two weeks later. Like, I don't know. Like, it kind of seems weird to me that a fighter who's struggling that much with a weight cut were just okay with her being, oh, she bounced back, so fight two weeks later. And also the other problem I have here is that Aspen Lad, if she wins this fight, is she going to stand featherweight?

If that's the case that she's going to stand featherweight, great. But otherwise, I just don't get the point of this fight. All right. Jose, same question for you. Holly Holie home out. Aspen Ladd in 145 pounds. She goes from losing a fight, Macy Chesa not fighting, to now getting a main event spot. How about that? One minute on the clock. Your thoughts on the UFC Vegas 40 headliner. Your time starts right now. I mean, it's whatever. It's the most 2021 thing that's ever happened because like we can make, we can, I've said it a thousand times.

It's great to book fights and it's great to make fights and it's great to have all these hypothetical there's to happen. But until either man or either woman is actually inside of the octagon, the fight's probably not going to happen. Because remember, Chas Skelly, he had a fight. He walked into the octagon. His hands were wrapped. And then it just didn't happen. Look, what, James Krauss? Like, I'm not James Krause. Was it Kevin Holland? He was supposed to fight Treven Giles, remember? And then his hands were wrapped. And then that fight didn't happen. So I feel bad for Holly and I feel bad for Mason because, you know, Macy, like Damon said, she's missed out on two fights with Aspen Latt, hasn't got paid for out of the time.

And also, let's not forget, a freaking crane fell on top of her apartment and destroyed everything she owns. And now she can't even get a freaking fight for no fault of her own because let's not forget the first time she pulled out of her fight with an injury, Asman Ladd's team kind of dragged her through the mud. And then all of a sudden, Ascent Ladd is tweeting apologies. Ten seconds. Go find Asper Ladd's apology on Twitter.

You can't. You know why? Because she deleted it because Misha Tate went scorched earth on her and everyone turned against Asphalad. to delete a tweet. So I feel bad for everyone involved, but whatever. It's a most 2021 thing to happen. It is.

What a time. What a time to be an MMA fan. What a time to be alive, gentlemen. There's a lot going on in the sports world, combat sports world. And curb balls are thrown from time to time in our crazy sport. And I'm about to throw you another one. I'm about to throw the world another curve ball, especially the BTL listeners out there.

We tried this before. It was very successful. We're going to go ahead and do it again because there's so much of, Shorty with the BTL title. Right now Cody Stamen has it. You can argue that Phoenix Carnivali is still the champion. There's a lot going on right now. So we're going to, as we try to shuffle the deck and figure out who the champion is and where it's going to go,

I'm not picking a winner. I'm not picking a winner right now. We're going to turn it on over to the BTL listening community to decide the winner. We did this once before. There's a matchup between Jed Mishu and Alexander K. Lee. It was a battle. and we got a lot of votes and it was a very close vote

and Jedmishu got the nod. And from now until Wednesday. Wednesday, let me pull up the calendar. October the 13th, you can cast your vote on who wins. Is it Jose or is it Damon? And if you don't pick Damon, Damon might cut a promo on your ass

and it won't be pretty. So you might want to just pick Damon at this point. We have a very special matchup potentially in store for next week. We're not going to reveal it as of right now, but a very special guest, could be joining the panel. So stay tuned for that. But in the meantime, cast your vote. We'll do it the same way you do. You're on to the next one picks. Find me on Instagram, M underscore Heck J.R. Submit your

vote. You don't have to write a long email explaining yourself. I don't care why you think one person wins. Just say Jose or Damon. J.Y.D.M. However you want to do it, just make it short and sweet. We'll tabulate the votes. These guys will know who won, and then we will announce the winner to pick up the show next week. So thank you for listening. I am Sorry for just kind of phoning it in and turning it over over to you guys, but I hate picking the winner. I hate it so much. I miss Casey.

Come back. For anyone that's voting for me, you can also put Damon Jackson in there. It's going to be interesting votes because if you re-listen to this, Damon and I pretty much agreed on everything. It's literally going to come down to who wasn't coughing into the microphone, which has been me all day. So if you prefer coughing, go Jose. for not coughing for Damon, but we will not say winner to kick off the show next week

and a very special edition of Between the Links. For Jose, for Damon, thank you gentlemen for coming on. And for all of you listening right now, we appreciate it. Join us next week as we go back once again between the links. Good night.