MMA Fighting - Between the Links: Stipe vs. Ngannou 2, Brunson vs. Holland Fallout, Miesha Tate's UFC Return

Episode Date: March 26, 2021

Mike Heck hosts the Between the Links matchup between Jed Meshew and Alexander K. Lee as they discuss Saturday's UFC 260 event and the heavyweight title rematch between Stipe Miocic and Francis Ngannou, the fallout of Derek Brunson's win over Kevin Holland at UFC Vegas 22, Charles Oliveira and Michael Chandler set to crown a new lightweight champion at UFC 262 and how that shapes up the rest of the division, Miesha Tate returning to the UFC octagon in July, and more.  Follow Mike Heck: @MikeHeck_JR Follow Alexander K. Lee: @AlexanderKLee Follow Jed Meshew: @JedKMeshew Subscribe: http://goo.gl/dYpsgH Check out our full video catalog: http://goo.gl/u8VvLi Visit our playlists: http://goo.gl/eFhsvM Like MMAF on Facebook: http://goo.gl/uhdg7Z Follow on Twitter: http://goo.gl/nOATUI Read More: http://www.mmafighting.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. From MMA Fighting Studios, this is Between the Links. And now, your host, my... A absolutely professional introduction from the iconic voice, Esther Lin, as we welcome you to a brand new edition of Between the Links. We are live following the UFC 260 press conference. Of course, the heavyweight championship of the world is on the line this Saturday night in the main event

as Steppe Mietchich defends against Francis Inganu in a rematch from their first meeting in Boston at UFC 220 where Steepa dominated a five-round decision. There we go. It's no longer the UFC Vegas 22 pre-fight shows. That's great. Well, the big question is, will it be a different story this time around

when the heavyweight titles on the line this Saturday? We shall see. We're going to discuss that card and a lot of other stuff going on in the world of mixed martial arts today. As we present to you a good old-fashioned number one contenders matchup, Jose Youngs, our champion, is in Las Vegas right now. So he awaits the winner of this week's matchup.

So let's get right into it. Let's introduce the combatants first. The Prince of Positivity is back. The co-host, the co-matchmaker of On to the Next one from MMAFighting.com. Mr. Alexander K. Lee, AK, good to see you. We're not canceled. How are you? I'm just waving to the audience, waving to the live studio audience.

Hello, yes, I'm back. I'm back. Hello. I'm ready to play, Mike. I'm always excited to play. Excellent. And back for the first time in a long time. It's been a couple of months he had to, I guess, decompress a little bit. But he's bringing you take so hot. We're probably going to need to take cold showers when the show is over from MMAFighting.com. Mr. Jedmishu. Welcome back, my man. I'm so happy to be back, Mike. I have a lot of things to say.

I'm just going to leave it at this, you know? I think I got off track at the start of the year. I needed to recompose myself. And the problem, really, I think, upon reflection, is I respected the people I was competing against too much, and I wasn't able to kind of deliver the same shots I need to. Fortunately, you've given me Alex Lee, so I don't have any issues with that.

I have no respect for this man, and this is going to be a blood back. Ah, that's what we love to hear. of course for those watching on. We write together every week, Jed. We write together every week. Regular weeks. Twice a week sometimes.

We write together. We do. And you're the reason that I haven't won a Pulitzer because you have edited out all of my best stuff for years at this point. I have no regrets. I have avoided many a lawsuit. I feel I've saved box media.

Many lawsuit with my work, and I take pride in it. I mean, everybody, somebody's got a police. That's you. All right. Well, listen, I'm going to be the judge here. There's no writing, no writing involved. All, uh, all speaking at this point. So, uh, for those watching on YouTube live right now, we seek your guidance, your wisdom.

Let us know what you think about these topics. Let us know how you're scoring these rounds in the chat. We want to hear from you as well. But let us begin with the UFC heavyweight championship of the world. UFC 260. We got Steve A. Mietchich, who. after losing his title to Daniel Cormier, excuse me, UFC 226.

In 2018, he gets that one back with the stoppage win at UFC 241. Then he wins the trilogy, a decision win in August at UFC 252. And then we have Francis and Ghanu, who since losing the steep A, he had that, let's be fair, and call it what it is. It was a dud with Derek Lewis, lost a decision there. But since then, he's run off four first round COs in a row in less than, I think, three minutes combined. just a ridiculous number right there. But Jed, we're going to begin things with you, my friend, because this has me thinking,

and you like to pay attention to these odds and play the ponies, et cetera. The opening line in this fight, Francis Ngano was more than a two-to-one favorite against Steve A. Mietich. The line is closed a bit now, but Francis is still the favorite, a slight one, at around minus 125 minus 130.

So after the way the first fight went, are you surprised that Ngano was the favorite heading into Saturday? No, because it's not 2018. Look, I know Steve has gone and gotten his peeky blinders haircut and slimmed up and made everybody think that he's not 39 years old. But that that's a midlife crisis. I know that he's an old man. You know that he's an old man. He doesn't look as good in the cage.

Fortunately, he spent the last three years just fighting another old dude. So I hasn't really come back to bite him in the ass other than that one time that he got knocked out in the first round. So I'm not surprised. This is a really interesting fight in how little we actually know about what the hell's about to happen on paper. To me, it makes sense that Inganu is the favorite because I think he is more likely to win the fight. But that's a lot of supposition. It's a lot of guesswork. Like, we don't actually know if Francis Ngano is good, which is maybe my favorite thing in MMA.

Like, there is every possibility that he is the baddest man on the planet. and he, like, very realistically, you probably wouldn't want your child to go, like, learn how to kickbox from him because he hasn't shown a real great aptitude for the technique parts of things. He just hits really hard and has pretty good timing, and that has carried him super far. He has a lot of other good attributes, not trying to knock him in, but I think he should be the favorite here. but I'm also probably the sports foremost Stepe Miocitator, so maybe that's color of my perception here. What do you think, A.K.,

you're not as into the betting odds as our friend Jed is here, but hearing that Francine Gano is the favorite against Stepe after they fought before and Stepe dominated, what are your thoughts on that? Are you surprised? Yes, I'm not as addicted to the ponies

as our Jed here, but you know, it's funny, I am a little surprised. The odds have gone down, though, right? Mike, they've gotten a little more even now, as you're closer to find, correct? Yeah, they started like plus, yeah, they started like plus two 30 and now they're down to or minus minus 230 for for Francis to open and now it's down to like minus 25, 125, 130. Right. Okay.

So at least it's reasonable. Look, I'll admit I actually was a little bit surprised. And this is coming from someone who picked Francis the first time and was wrong and who is probably going to pick Francis again this time and knowing my checker could be wrong on that. But I am a little surprised. I think just given how the first fight went and what we know of their skill sets, yeah, even taking the account how long ago the fight it was, where they are, you know, athletically, respectively in their careers right now,

it's still like, is, is Depe that different a fighter than he was at 220? Is Francis that different a fighter than was in 220? We don't know, you know. Jed mentioned that there's question marks, but I'll go as far as things. Like those, those are glaring, glaring, glaring question marks. Say what, you know, people can say what they want about like, oh, he didn't, he beat Kane, who's a big, great. He beat, you know, Curtis Blades, is a great wrestler.

He's like, we didn't see any actual wrestling there. We don't know. And those guys, frankly, are not Stevie Milditch. They're great fighters. But Steve A is maybe the greatest heavyweight. So I think, I will say, I'm a little surprised because I just feel it's so disrespectful. And again, I know I'm part of that by being one of the people who keeps picking against him. But he's, I know he's easy to overlook.

I get it. But his in cage results at some point have to tell, like, a different, more clear story that for some reason, the Ozmakers are just ignoring. I know it's, I know, I know it's not the. Osweger's jobs to really, you know, analyze these things. It's about getting money or it's not getting money out of better. So in that sense, kudos to them, I suppose. But yeah, I would say I have some surprise. And I bet I'm not the only one.

I bet there's a lot of people who have sort of grown to, certainly not Jed, but a lot of fans of the UFC who have sort of grown to understand Stipe's greatness and who are probably a little caught off guard. And honestly, might not even know if you told them right now that Francis was the favorite, even though it's minor now, I think they'd be surprised. So, yeah, I'm not just speaking for myself, but I think speaking for a good segment of the fan base. Chad, you got that look on your face right now.

Do it. Do it. Do it. Steve is really good at fighting. And I understand that because the results are inarguable. I just don't see why he's, like, I cannot understand why he's good at fighting. It is the same issue I have with Brian Ortega. Like, they lose so much of fights.

and then they win them. And it's, it is just baffling to me that he has been so successful that I can't understand him. And so I just hate the things that I don't understand. I think that's it. And like I, it doesn't help that he is an absolute black hole of charisma. Um,

that is certainly not doing anybody any favors. But like, I get that he is very good. His results are obviously excellent. I am not one of those fatal or fan boys. I, correction. I am a Fadoor fanboy, but I'm not like, oh, Steve, it would get killed by Fador.

He'd probably hand Fado over his own ass, like, even in their prongs. So, like, I get that, but it is just, I just feel like he shouldn't be the best heavyweight we've ever had, despite the old kind of mounting evidence that that is true. And so it's just really hard for me to do that. And then coming into this fight, like, I obviously picked Inganu the first time. I'm 100% picking him. here. I think a lot has changed.

Look, we don't know that Francis Ngano has gotten better. I'm actually not sure it matters if he's gotten better. I think it would help, certainly. But I think there is at least a very logical and reasonable way to view their first fight as, oh, Angano was overwhelmed by the

moment, and Stipe has a lot of experience, and he knew how to attack Ngano and kind of take advantage of that. And so he carried the day. Coming into this one, Inganu is not going to punch himself out in four minutes. And that makes a much more dangerous prospect for Steve Bay, especially when you add on the fact that since that fight,

he has been knocked out cold. He's three years older. Like, I assume that Inganu has gotten better because he was early in his career. He probably should have gotten better. And I am very confident that Miyuch has gotten worse because people don't get better at sports in their late 30s. And so to me,

it seems like Inganu should be the favorite here. It's not disrespectful to Miochich. lot of things I've said have been, but him being like the underdog, that's just a factor of getting money on both sides of the action. What about the legendary Polish power, Jed? He's getting better with age. I'm not entirely confident that that is true. I think to some extent, look, I think you know that I'm a huge lover of Yviani Boko there, but I think maybe he has improved slightly. I think largely he has had really good timing and where he is.

Like where his career has happened has been very good timing, which is like that has long been my belief on Stepe, too. And I'm starting to think that that has to be wrong because he just keeps beating people that are very good. But it's just hard for me till I just don't like him. I don't know why he seems like a good dude, salt of the earth. I don't have any problem with him personally, but it is very different. disconcerting that he's the baddest fan on the planet and has been for the last like five years.

And so it would be very MMA and it would make me really happy if Francis Ngano, who might not be technically brilliant, probably isn't, but he's just, he can do a couple things real good and that's all that it takes. He just knocked his head off. Like that'd be really MMA fitting and it'd be great because Inganu's awesome. He has a tremendous story. And look at the fits that man wears. You see him at the presser today?

Look at how good that is the champion dressing right there. I would agree. And what's beautiful about this fight is there doesn't need to be a lot of trash talk yet. There's just so many of these questions that we have about who's gotten better. How much better has France has gotten since the loss of Steebe? Because it's really almost impossible to say because he just stops guys in 20 seconds. so we don't know what's going to happen if this gets to the second round,

the third round, the fourth round. We don't know what improvements he's made in the wrestling, the takedown defense, et cetera. So, AK, you're picking in Ghanu, but in your heart of hearts, if this gets past the first round, do you think he's in trouble here? Are you going to start questioning things?

I'm going to start questioning Jed first. So I heard, so Jed used the word assume a few times in there. Come on, Jen, now, Jed, you know, when, what's the old saying? When you assume you look like an ass. And the other thing was, there's also the Brian Ortega. That is the same. And there was also the Brian. I also laughed when you brought, I was like, you know, when that Brian Ortega Alexander Volcanowski fight was canceled, I was like, surely there is no way that Jed will find a way to do a drive-by.

Completely on call for a drive-by and Brian Ortega during our between the links appearance. And sure enough, poor Ortega just caught astray out of nowhere. I'm not sure why. I think that was completely unwarranted. But otherwise, I mean, look, no, no, look, I get it. I get it. Like I said, I can't say at a time. I think Anganu's going to win, which is not, again, it's not a good sign for St.P.

Miotich and his supporters, if people know my track record of picking U.S. Fights, especially main events this year where I've just been completely off. But I understand the intrigue. And I even, Jed, I even, to some degree, understand the clear, clear disdain that you have for steep amoeuvre. for anyone who he said it wasn't personal, I would just tell people to Google MMA fighting, Jed Mishu, Steve Miochich,

and look up any articles Jed has written about Steve A. I think it is a little bit personal. I think it is a little bit personal. He seems like he's a good dude. It's entirely professional. This is the... This is the... His professional brain is a game.

Personally, he's a firefighter. He seems like a dude who might be cool to have a beer with, but if you have to transcribe what he's saying, you probably don't like it. point of fact in there. I'm hearing a lot of, I'm here, a lot of, a lot of Ricky Bobby,

with all due respect, comma, and then just fire, just flames thrown in, in steep base direction. And I wish you would just embrace it instead of trying, you know, this isn't like you. Normally, I would think you would just embrace

these things. But, Mike, what was the question now? I think we've got, we've straight, I apologize now. I think we've strayed a little bit from the question. What are we talking about? How the hell am I going to score this?

It's like nine to nine right now. What are we, Is this first round or bust for Francis and Gano, A.K.? Oh, right. Is this first round? Oh, yes, right. Is this first round? No, no.

I'll tell you what. Round one or two or bust maybe. Yeah, I'll be honest. I think if I see it go past the second round, especially if we don't see him like sting, Steve, we don't know, we'll know early on. Will he be able to figure out steep emojis of timing? Is he avoiding the taked as well?

How is he dealing with the wrestling? How much wrestling is steepe use it? you know, we'll figure that out pretty quickly in the first 10 minutes. After the first minutes, if it looks like he's having trouble, if he's been taken down in like the second round and like spent a lot of the round his back, look, I think there's

no reason not to think it'll be a repeat of 220, but I don't know if I'll go so far as to say bust. Like I said, I think, I'm a believer in a lot of things in Ghana has said, like this isn't even about assuming he's made improvement. It's like, it's the mental aspect of things. You know, he was saying, today's press conference he was saying,

I don't recognize myself when I saw that fighter. There was something that was just off. His coaches have spoken about how they felt maybe his ego during that time and kind of gotten away from, which I can totally believe. So, yeah, I'm kind of picking at intangibles here. But I do think that all of that, when you're talking about a five-round heavyweight championship fight, I think that kind of stuff matters. So I think he fared, I mean, he didn't get finished, you know,

which is something we always bring up as a point in his favor. And I think he has a chance, even if it goes into the championship rounds, I think he has a chance. So I'm not ruling out a late KO for Francis Gungunner. Okay, he said something. And I feel like everybody just glosses over this fact. But to me, it's one of the things that, like, is the most deciding to me. Like, yeah, Inganu didn't get finished.

Steve had, like, a physically exhausted fighter in front of him for arguably 21 minutes, but at least 20 minutes. And he couldn't finish him. And I don't know that he said he couldn't. But he, because he, he. probably could have if he had tried to, but he was not willing to open himself up to whatever perceived risk there was to finish that fight. He just leaned on Francis, wore him down, didn't really hurt him that much after that initial round, and let him get to 25 minutes. Like if he can't get Ngano out when Ngano was shot, like done, I don't feel confident he's going to be able to do

that in this one, which means he now has to survive another 25. minutes with quite possibly the most dangerous hitter of the sport has ever seen. And instead of going against the guy who is going to unload everything he's got in five minutes, and then you're mostly safe outside of one big shot. Now he's got to do 25 minutes against the guy who's going to be much better prepared to go 25 minutes, to have to push past kind of somebody who doesn't just bolt under the first shot. Like, that has always been a really instructive thing to me because it's, like, Steve I should

have finished him. Like, you should have put a stamp on it, and then I would have a lot more questions coming into this one. But now, like, I think that it is possible that Stepe is technically proficient enough to outbox Francis Ngano over 25 minutes. And Gano has, as far as we've seen, has a couple of attacks, and that's largely it. Maybe he's got more who really knows. But if Meijic can mix in some wrestling, I think he can work the jab really effectively. He did that in their first encounter, and he has at least better footwork than any of the people in Ghanu's knocked out in the last four runs. But, like, that's just playing with fire, man. Like, that's, that's just it. Like, he is playing with fire for 25 minutes this time, as opposed

to the first time when they fought, where he knew that he had to survive an initial storm, and then he was good. I don't think those, I think those dynamics aren't the same. And that dramatically changes the outlook of this fight for me. Of course, with all the questions from, like, a competitive nature between these two guys. The biggest question of all when it comes to money and schedule for 2021 is who will face John Jones later this year for the title and Johnny Vones's heavyweight debut because our own E. Casey Lidens says it all the time. I don't believe John Jones is a heavyweight until he actually fights and we're waiting for this fight to end so we can finally see if he's going to fight. So there's things we want to see as fans. We probably each have our own preference.

but, Jed, let me ask you, what would be the bigger fight? Is it John Jones versus scary France-Igano or is it John Jones trying to beat the greatest heavyweight in UFC history? Yeah, it's definitely John Jones-Nanunu. I mean, if Inganu has the title, I think if Inganu didn't have the title, that'd be a bit interesting, like about which of those two is better at that point, probably Steepay. But if Inganu has the title, it's definitely that. like steepe is never been an enormous draw i mean he's done fine like he's actually not bad

but uh like what he's not going to sell that fight for shit because it's stepe and ingano might not be like a huge trash talker but he has some level of charisma that will make that fight be bigger uh than it will be steepa jones what do you think a k because let's let's be clear just the name john jones sells this fight the intrigue him fighting ahead He could fight anybody and it's going to sell. But what do you think is what do you think is the better fight? Is it is it Jones and Gano for the title or is it Jones Miochich for the title? You know, most powerful puncher on the planet or the greatest heavyweight in UFC history.

I'm leaning towards you know, I'll go the other way and lean towards meochish because for one thing, there's a history there now. I mean, don't you're wrong. When people look at Inganu's, even though he hasn't won the title, when people look at Engunner's resume, it's almost become like underrated. I will say it's like, I think people, people because he doesn't won, they're kind of like, oh, how does his resume stack up to, to like Steve's? And I don't know, maybe he doesn't stack up to Stipe's, because St.Pey, I think, has the greatest ever. If you compare on Ghanu's resume to, like, any other heavyweight in history, it's kind of like,

holy crap, he's got a lot of big names on there who he's finished. And yet, you know, he doesn't have the longevity yet. But, I mean, if we're just talking about quality of wins, it's really, really, it's considerable. But I like them, you'll just think, again, I think his resume is a little bit stronger, I think it's a greater history. And I think, I feel like as bad, and I will acknowledge this, that Jen, that Jen, always brings us up. As bad as Steve A is in selling fights, and I can't even lie, he is not, he's just not good at it. I think there would, there would be some genuine animosity there

between Jones and Miochich. Now, I mean, look, Jones has done a good job of tweeting at both guys, kind of. I know he's kind of said some stuff about Ghanu, says some stuff about Steepay. But I think Stipe and him, I think would, their personalities would clash just a little bit more. I think there's a bit of a sort of a glory boy, John thing, and then, of course, the Humble, Clevelander guy, Steepay. People can bring up things about whatever. I've ever heard. This is ridiculous. No,

it's not ridiculous. Listen. Steve, John Jones. And we got no heat on that trilogy fight from him. Like,

John Jones will beef with me for me because John Jones will beef with me if I say that I think I can beat up John Jones. His ego is that fragile that he can't handle

anybody. Oh, he can be with anybody. I just think it'd be more compelling with Miotich. I think it'd be more compelling with Miochich.

I think it would be more compelling with Francis Ngano. I think it'd be all right. I think, I think. This is nonsense. Vigano goes in first round cold, steep. Hey, I just blow that happens. If that happens, I'm saying, what the hell up, John Jones?

I understand. I have, you know, if that happens, but I'm saying, if I had to pick, which one I think is the more subtle fight, I'll gladly lean towards Muratridge. I think the history matters. I think him being the great, him having the mantle,

it would be undisputed heavyweight, the greatest heavyweight of all time. We just said this earlier. If Ngano beats Miochich, he'd have a strong case to be one of the greatest heavyweights of all time. He would not be the de facto greatest heavyweight of all time. I don't think anyone would make that argument. He'd be on his way. You weren't making that case earlier.

And I think Miochich, again, definitively. He's beaten everybody that's good at this point. Okay, well, you're saying that out. But I'm saying Miotich for sure would be, and I think that history is important. And I think that would be established. So I'm just, I think. heavyweight because he's bad. I don't know why he can't figure out.

Both fights are sellable. I think there's a lot of history of Miotich, and I think that that matters. And I think, again, I think they'd clash a little more than Inganu and Jones would. I think Ingano and Jones, I think they might go the unfortunate, like, mutual respect route at some point, and nobody wants to see that.

Inganu Jones is just like a supercharged rumble Jones, and everybody was off their rocker pump for that fight, and we never got it. Like, this is the most obvious answer of all time. All right, last thing, last thing quickly. We lost some fights. We lost the co-main event. We lost the second title fight between Volkinovsky and Jed Mishu's second favorite fighter, Brian Ortega.

Jed, is this a good card on Saturday? Main event's good. A lot of questions. Is this a good card? This card is trash. This card was pretty, like, okay, this card was good when I had two title fights on it. Because much as I obviously just don't like Brian Ortega because he makes me look stupid. He doesn't like that.

the hardest thing in the world, but he consistently makes me look like a dumbass. That was still a really compelling fight because I'm going to go off here and actually give Ortega a compliment. I think he has the best chance of beating Volcanovsky in the division. And so that was a really compelling fight. Losing that fight from this card took like one of the legs out. And now it is, this card has three fights that are like notable and matter. and then it's a lot of filler. Fortunately, it's only like nine fights now or 10,

so that's good. It's short at least. It's got that going for it. But this card is largely trash, and I know usually you even ask me to pick a deep cut here, and I have one, but it was tough to find because this card is bad outside of the main event. Well, what is it? Tell us.

Oh, well, obviously the most fun fight on the card is Tommy Almeida, Sean O'Malley, that'll just be a fun fight, but that's not really a deep cut. If you're going for a deep cut, the only thing that I could twist my head to believe would be fun was the Modesta Bukowskus. I'm sure I'm butchering both of these guys' name. And do we call a Luxajic fight? Like, light heavyweight tends to be a fun division because everybody's pretty terrible in it. And both of those guys have a habit of either winning in emphatic fashion or losing an emphatic fashion.

so that'll probably be a fun barnyard explosion. What do you think, A.K., is this, we've been spoiled here. We've been spoiled this year, especially at the pay-per-views. Is this a good card? What do you call it good? Look, it's a glorified fight night with a really great heavyweight title fight in the top. And look, and admittedly, it's not like Volcanowski and Ortega put it that far over the top because then it was just a glorified fight night card with two in compelling title fights at the top.

But I do think having those two, I think that, like, that distinction matters. I do think having the two title fights adds a certain luster to it. It kind of, it bumps, what would have been on the main card instead? I can remember,

oh, they would have bumped off. What was, oh, malarkey worthy? Oh, that's a good fight. But either way, it kind of, you know what I mean? It moves, it shifts everything out of place. And it just looks, like, when you look at the card down on paper,

you're like, this really looks like a fight night. Like, if this was, like, Woodley, Loukeh feels like a fight night headliner. You know what I mean? And then backed up by all these other fights. Or maybe, oh, I'll make it depending on how high people think the UFC still is on O'Malley. But it's, I can't disagree with Jen on this one.

I know we've had a fiery start here. But I think we can get, we can find some middle ground here because I, I mean, I'm not going to argue this is super strong. It's really for a pay-per-view. One kind of built for a while. Losing that title fight hurt a lot. And, you know, we talk about deep cuts. I'm looking at like Shane Young Omar Morales. And that's a fight that's been, I mean, that's a fight that could be in jeopardy up until fight night.

Because, I mean, there's been rumors that there was maybe. be a false positive with the test on Chen Young's side. So we're hoping everything's okay so far. It's on schedule. Both fighters, I've not heard either of them say the fight is off. But when one of your deep cuts is a fight that might get knocked off by COVID in the next 48 hours, that's usually not a sign of a deep or particularly compelling event. Well, I mean, these gentlemen sold it for it, but we will have coverage through Saturday night

internally Sunday morning. So stick with us in May fighting. We got the way and show tomorrow at noon Eastern. and it'll be compelling television, I promise. So get excited for that. But the point for round one, I didn't think we'd go 20 plus minutes on UFC 260, but the point for round one goes to Jed Mishu on the board.

What? One to nothing. What? He won't a nine to eight and a half. It wasn't pretty. Wasn't pretty. What I get the point? That's ridiculous.

Yeah. It's all good. It was a good battle. This is how the show is going to be. It's this kind of show? Is this kind of show? Are we getting an AK heel turn right now? I hope so.

I'm just asking a question. I'm just asking, I'm just holding up the mirror. I'm just holding up the mirror. I'm just holding up the mirror. Everybody knows how this show is going to go. Don't worry about it. You're going to be in the fine. No, I.

We don't know. We don't know. Nothing in life is guaranteed. Okay. All right. Well, we talked about this Saturday. Let's talk about this past Saturday. Okay.

UFC Vegas 22. Derek Brunson comes through with his, wow, fourth straight win. Look at that banner right there. But Brunson gets a five-round unanimous decision win over Big Mouth, Kevin Holland, who went in five and oh in 2020. It was a big win for Brunson, who is now the number four ranked 185 pounder in the UFC. But A.K., we will begin with you. Despite the loss, the big story here is Kevin Holland.

Did he talk too much? Was he taking it seriously? and Derek Brunson, even with the win, he's kind of the second place storyline here. Is that fair, A.K., is Derek Brunson not getting enough credit for his victory on Saturday? All right, listen, I came out hot in round one.

My corner has calmed me down. They've rubbed the ice all over my back and chest. They've cooled me off, all right? I got a little hot there. I'm not going to apologize for anything I said. I stand by it, but we need to speak with, we need to speak with moderation here because this is a touchy subject, all right?

So I'll say first of this. That's not my strength, say, Kay. Oh, I know you're ready to unload. I know you don't have to be careful. I'm going to have to be careful here. Because, because judging by kind of the reaction I've seen from some of my peers on social media, some of the people working in the truck, the MMA fighting truck, have a certain opinion of this.

They're very supportive. See, that's very unprofessional. All right. They're very supportive of the. of the Kevin Holland schick. The heaven Holland's his natural personality, his loquaciousness,

which is on display in the cage, more on display than ever because we are now having events in an empty arena, and you can literally hear nothing during his fights but him talking. And that's fine.

Look, that's the Kevin Holland that America fell in love with. That's the Kevin Holland that people were talking about as a contender last year when he went 5 and 0. That's great. Let me tell you something.

That's the same Kevin Holland that I have not, not liked for a long time. And look, I don't, I'm not blaming him for talking. Talking is great. I'm not like Dana White, who Dana White said initially, oh, he didn't sign him off the contender series because he talked too much, which was absurd. That was, that was a very stupid thing to say, if anything, we know that Dana White and

the UFC love guys who talk a lot. I don't know if anyone quite talks as much in the cage as Holland, but, you know, it's certainly something he got known for even before in that five-fight win streak. But for me, my affinity towards Kevin Holland is directly. related, and it's going to sound crazy, it's directly related to whether he's winning fights or not. I like Kevin Holland when he's winning fights. Maybe that's a spicy take. I don't know. But I certainly sympathize with the segment of fans who were put off by a lot of the, I'm going to go, I'm going to use a strong word here, guys, the antics, the antics that we saw on Saturday. He wasn't

just talking to Derek Brunson. He was talking to Kabib at the Rick Cajside. He's probably talking to Dana White, talking to his corner. He was talking to like everybody. And I get it. It's, it's who he is. it's what he does, but I'm just saying people don't have to like it. I think the optics of it are understandably bad. Okay, when you're winning fights, you can do whatever you want. Same goes for Connor McGregor. When he's winning fights, great. I think, oh, I find some of his quotes great.

When he's losing and just being a complete moron, I'll call him out for it. I'm not going to say, oh, that's just Connor being Connor. You know, it's like, no, these people should be, you know, these fighters should be held accountable when their behavior is kind of like kind of off-putting. So I don't think Holland's kind of reached that level, though some of his podcast comments are certainly regrettable. But as far as him talking too much, yeah, I think, I think you have to read the room a little bit, whether the room has, you know, fans in attendance or not.

I think it's, and I think maybe adjust how you approach things. Again, I'm not saying he's, I don't think he's going to. I'm not saying it's going to be deleterious to his career if he doesn't. And I'm not saying that it would have changed anything that happened on Saturday if he'd suddenly, you know, become a mime for the last like three rounds. But I'm saying, if you want to know where the criticism is coming from, it's a bad look when you're losing a fight like that. and you're smiling and you're laughing and you look like you don't care about whether you won

or lost. That's what it looks like. I'm not saying that's how he feels about it. That's what it looked like. Interesting. What do you think, Jeff, because it is interesting because Kevin Holland talking as AK sort of alluded to, that's what's gotten him over with fans with Dana,

even though Dana wouldn't sign him off the contender series because he quote unquote, talk too much during the fight. Winning. Winning. Hold on. Winning has gotten him over with fans. Winning has gotten him over with fans. Let's be clear.

I don't want to be misrepresented here. What I'm saying is winning has gotten him over with fans. All right. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I'm sorry to interrupt. I apologize. Okay.

To counteract what you just said. Okay, even when Kevin Holland knocked out Anthony Hernandez in May last year, yeah, the fight was only 39 seconds. The whole storyline out of that fight was, why didn't you talk, Kevin? Where was that Kevin Holland?

Where was the trash talk? We wanted to hear you the whole fight. And he got bombarded with questions about why you didn't talk in that fight. So naturally, he started talking again. But, Jen, let me ask you this. In your eyes, is Derek Brunson not getting enough credit for the win? And honestly, if Holland said nothing, the whole fight, would that fight have gone any differently? No.

Of course it wouldn't. Look, I try not. That's not true. I use hyperbole all the time. This is actually being dead serious. I legitimately think this might be the dumbest damn thing that the MMA world has discussed. like in the last six months. This is categorically ridiculous.

Every way you look at it. Like, first, I'll just answer your original question. So before I go off on this rant, Mike, Derek Brunson is getting exactly the correct amount of appreciation for his win. I am not here to take any credit away from Derek Brunson. That is a good win over a good contender. Dominant, he was never at risk of losing that fight realistically. He has now, he got two checks out of the deal, moved into the top five.

his next fight is probably a title eliminator. There's nothing else that you can ask for from a fighter, from a sporting standpoint. He conducted himself with class in and outside of the cage. Like, good for Derek Brunson. I am glad he is finally going to get potentially a chance to compete for the belt. Like, he deserves it. He's been grinding away.

That's all I'm going to say about Derek Brunson, because this whole other conversation has taken place. And again, it's the stupidest damn thing we've talked about months. On a point by point basis, strategically, it would be very stupid for Kevin Holland to stop talking because this is not a gimmick. It's not a stick. It's not something he does like Connor does to try and get in the heads of his opponents. It's just who he is.

Like, you wouldn't tell Tom Brady to go out there and throw left-handed because he got picked off a couple of times. Like, that's just, that's really bad coaching. Like, hey, I know that this is who you are and this is how you do your compete your best. but let's not do that because it's it's making the internet feel a little certain kind of way about it like that's dumb as shit uh moving on from that if you were like this whole fight bothered the shit out of me because of bisping and feldar being like he needs to get serious and stop talking if he had done that midfight it would have been even worse what's Derek brunson going to think when kevin holland suddenly shuts the hell up and starts fighting like oh he's going to think oh i've beaten this man already we're done here because now i've taken him out of his game like talking being loose like being loose is such a big thing for fighters like everybody talks about oh he looks really comfortable in there why would we want to be like hey Kevin get less comfortable

that's not good absolutely ridiculous aside from all the financial incentives that it is like he is more popular because he talks the ultimate thing here is it doesn't matter if he was talking if he was silent if he was reading a book if he had brought a baseball bat into the cage with him he wasn't winning that fight because Derek Brunson's better than him. Like that's it.

Him talking had nothing to do with this. Like his corner comes and talks to him at half time or whatever. I was like, hey, man, let's, what are they going to do? Is he going to be Hulk Hogan and put his serious face on and just be able to defend takedowns? No, he's still going to get taken down. He's still going to lose the fight. His whole thing's ridiculous. And frankly, him talking is the only thing that made this fight fun.

Like, it was fun to watch him talk to Habib. while he's losing because otherwise we're just watching him get laid on not again this is not a condemnation of Derek brunson because i think brunson fought really well a really smart fight but it is not compelling television to watch derrick brunson be smart and just positionally dominate kevin holland the only interest in that fight was kevin holland talking to hobi during the sidelines and i guess in that second round when he looked like maybe buzzed holland his whole thing is really stupid We could get into a lot of like social dynamics that I think are probably underpinning why some people feel this way. Not you, A.K. But like other people probably have some feelings about Kevin Holland walking and stuff. But like we don't really need to because this is all just really stupid. The last thing I'm going to say is on this and then I'll kick it back because I know I went for a while here. It's totally okay that Kevin Holland doesn't care if he wins or loses.

like there is no onus on him to give a shit about that. This is his life, his career. He gets to determine how he wants to do it. Like they tell you since you're little, it's not whether you win or lose is how you play the game. And like, realistically, Derek Brunson probably is never going to win the title. And being as wrapped up as he is in victory and defeat is probably good for him in a career sense in some aspects.

But ultimately, he is going to be really sad the next time he loses. Whereas Kevin Holland was able to take this loss and move. move on. Like, there's probably a good argument that the way Kevin Holland approach is fighting as the journey being the purpose and not the destination is better for him, his mental health and his long-term physical health, frankly. And it's also just his damn choice. Like, we don't get to tell him how to live his life. If he's comfortable with this decision and doing that, and that's how he is, is his best and his happiest, hell yeah, man, do your dance. Talk your shit. Like, that's fine.

Whoa, what is going? Chuck, I think, uh, you, technical glitch, technical glitch. Okay, whatever. We'll fix that in post. It's fine. All right. So building upon what you just said, Jen, that was an amazing speech, by the way. You know, I, I, this stuff about Kevin talking during the fight, I think you feel like it's clearly, you're just blown out of proportion.

I get that. But the one thing, like, like Daniel Cormier made an interesting point about this early this week, you know, and you kind of said it too. Kevin is who he is. His coaches know who he is. But the one issue that a lot of people seem to have, like you can have, the talking meant nothing. He would have lost that fight anyways. But the fact that he's on his feet,

he's talking with Habib who's sitting next to Dana White, that's all fun and good. And it's great, it's great to watch. It's great television. But nobody on his team in his corner sat him down. It was like, dude, sit your ass down, focus.

This is what we want you to do. You're down three, four rounds to none, et cetera. and maybe Kevin isn't just they're just like whatever Kevin do it do your thing but at some point like you just got to be like dude you got to knock this dude out like you got to finish this fight so what does Kevin Holland

you don't know at some point you can totally let it with his life like it is no you listen hold on out there expressed himself in the way that he wanted he is clearly entirely comfortable and happy with his performance and with what transpired

like he obviously would have preferred to win, but he is not exiting this being like, man, I screwed up. I am, I'm unsatisfied or I'm unhappy. Like, he did what he wanted to do. The outcome was not how he wanted it to go. And that's entirely fine. Like, we're, everybody is existing in this paradigm where the only thing that matters is wins and losses. And that's just not the truth. Like, if, if you want to view the world that way or specifically fighting that way, that's okay. It's your prerogative to do so. Kevin Allen clearly does not. And that is fine as well. Like it is his career. It is his brain cells. He gets to do what he wants to do. And as coaches, we have to assume are aware of that and not incompetent.

Okay. So in your mind, Mike, may I? Mike may I? Go ahead, AK, yes, yes. Absolutely. So many things here. All right. One, the whole point of discussions that we're saying, You're right, Jade, you're right. It's not about whether he won or lost. What we're saying is how did it look when he was, when he's either winning or losing? Okay, that's it. No, and that's what we're saying.

You didn't refute anything. You literally did not refute a single thing I said. Because I said, I said, I agree kind of that the talking didn't have an effect. If anything, you, you, sir, I'm sorry to point. This is very rude. Even over the internet, this very rude. But you've brought, sir, you've brought me to this level. You are the one who was saying that him changing his demeanor would have made him

fight worse or something? like if he stops talking. So is it, so is the talking, so does the talking or not talking affect the performance or not? Why the two orders, Colonel? Why are the two orders? Because you've made two points there that country each other saying that you, that the talking, because I'm saying the talking doesn't matter. I agree.

What I'm saying the talking does do is it affects the perception of him, which clearly it did. Look, all this kumbaya bullshit about like, oh, yeah, okay, he's, oh, he's living a super happy life. He's so mentally. That's awesome. I agree. If, if Holland never wins a fight again and is. super happy with it and goes on to live a retirement and like he's like no regrets. That's amazing. That's like a credit to him and like again, his mindset. That's awesome. Maybe more fighters should be

like that. But the point is there's fans do not have to accept that. There is there is no aspect of oh fans should just be happy for him. Oh yeah yeah. No, it's great. London Fight. How do you want. No, fans are allowed to react how they want. This was his first main event on ESPN. That's a big deal. There was probably a lot of people seeing him for the first time. And if you think, that they were as amused by the talking to Kabibn and Magamatov is. That they were amused by him talking to the people on the case I was talking to the guy during

I don't know who a babe is. I'm saying some random person tuning in, I don't know. But the point is that they didn't see, they didn't see what you're seeing. You're seeing like, oh, this guy having fun. No, they saw a guy who was losing a fight and was just talking and looked like he didn't have a care in the world.

And like I said, some people might view that as a positive. That's fine. but at the same time, it can be a very, very bad look. This is about optics. And the coaching thing is like, the Tom Brady thing is completely crazy. The Tom Brady thing is completely crazy. Coaching a guy is not, I don't know, maybe I don't know how you coach people. I don't, when I'm coaching someone, if I would ever coach someone who would listen to me,

but I wouldn't tell them to completely change their game. Coaching doesn't mean telling someone to completely change what they're doing. It means making little tweaks and adjustments. Do you think Tom Brady or other high-level athletes, even at this stage, don't listen to their coaches and don't take advice and adjust their games, if they're having a bad half, or if they made a bad read or had a bad play. This was, this was Derek Bunsen's essentially having a bad read for 20, sorry, Kevin Holland, for 25 minutes and not adjusting until the end when he got that dig down, which was fucking hilarious.

But other than that, it's like, to say that the coaching, just say that he didn't listen to the coaching is like, or shouldn't listen to coaching. And the coaching doesn't matter is, no, that's absurd. That doesn't make, that doesn't make any sense. So, no. I know I said that he shouldn't listen to coaching. I said his coaches shouldn't tell him to shut up because that would be fundamentally bad. Why?

We don't know. We don't know that it would be fundamentally bad. You said you said the talking, you said the talking wouldn't make a difference. Why the two orders, colonel? You said the talking or not talking wouldn't make a difference. Okay. So which one is, does the talking matter or not? Did not make a difference to him losing the fight.

I think the not talking, which is not the same as talking, they are in fact exact opposites, not talking probably would have made a difference in this context. And I'd like to agree with you. Fans do not owe him anything. You can feel however you want to about this. That is entirely your prerogative. But just so you're aware, it's real damn dumb because why do you give a shit? That's the whole crux of my argument is Kevin doesn't care and this is his life and his career.

So why do you care other than some idyllic, oh, well, we want everybody to be GSP, unless they're going to be Connor and then they're great. I said it all. I was talking about the fandom writ large that is up in arms about Kevin Holland being mouthy or whatever the hell it is. Like, I don't give a shit. I think he's happy and that's enough in general for me. And he's probably better by being this way than fitting into some box. that everybody wants him to fit into now because he lost. Because you've said that winning and losing doesn't matter,

but it very obviously does because literally the determination there is whether you think this is okay. Like if he wins, it's cool. If he loses, it's not, which isn't an unreasonable thing like that happens fairly commonly in life. But my point is that that's dumb and who gives her shit, it's how you play the game. And if he's happy, go for it. Well, I'm saying that's how you feel about it. But I'm saying there was a reason he became super popular in 2020. It's because he was talking and winning all of his fights.

He now lost and was talking the same way and people didn't like it. I think there's a very direct correlation there. And I think it's pretty obvious. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that being the way that people view him. I think, again, your personality is one thing. And again, everybody loves a winner. And when you're a loser, everyone's going to kick him your down. Really, there's almost nothing you can do.

It's not going to make a difference. But I'm saying in this case, the talking, how he presented himself on Saturday, It's certainly amplified whatever criticism people may already have Kevin O'Lod. And I don't see that can be that can be denied. I have a question. It's a serious question, too. Like God's on a serious question. Do either of you this for you as well, Mike or Casey, if you want to weigh him, do either

of you think this story matters or gets as much traction if Bissping and Felder don't like scold him mid-fight? If they're just like, ah, Kevin Holland's still out there, being himself, do you think anybody gives a shit? because I don't. I think this actually tracks back directly to those two. I think we'd still be talking about it, honestly. I think so.

I think we would. Yeah, I think Dana White would have, because Dana White still would have given his quote to Kevin Ioli saying in a mental breakdown, we still would be talking about. Maybe, Dana. Maybe. I can maybe buy that then.

So I get the point? Sure. The rules made up in the point don't matter. All right. Okay, so real quick on this, what you're saying, Jed, is that Kevin, does Kevin Hall need to change anything? Does he need to change, like, does he need to move to 170, say, 185? Okay, so you think he should move to 170?

I think he will probably be optimized at 170, but I think he is fine at 185. Like, he's still going to win a lot of fights. Like, I think if they rematch him a couple of years and Kevin Holland maybe worked on his wrestling defense, like he could probably be Derek Brunson. but like it's also he is at some point probably undersized for middle weight I feel less confident about that as these days go on in general but like yeah at walterway he's probably going to be better what do you think okay is it moving to

170 is it maybe changed some things up obviously the wrestling the takedown defense needs to improve his approach like what does he need to change or does he just like you said does he just need to tweak a couple of things and keep being the same old Kevin Holland. I think a move to 170 would help a lot. If he can do it, if we can do it comfortably, which again, he's, he's teased me. He's been matched up at 170 and, you know, the fights has kind of fallen through, unfortunately. So he's fought a 170 before the UFC.

If you can do it comfortably, I think that's going to make a big, big difference. As far as the mental tweaks, again, and the talking, all the stuff that we've been saying about that. I don't know, you know, that, again, that does come down to whether his team actually feel whether that, you know, the way he displays his personality during fights is distracting or if it's distracting during training or things like that. He himself has said, you know, dropping down will help him focus. And I don't know.

I don't know if focusing means again. Does that mean less time? That might mean more talking. Maybe I'm more focused. Kevin Holland is louder and more verbose than before. So, yeah, it's going to depend on what him and his team says. But I do think they need to have a conversation about it. Maybe nothing changes?

Do you think Kevin Holland talking is more distracting to Kevin Holland? or to the dude he's talking to. It could be, it could be just more distracting to him. There's no chance. It's more distracting. You don't know. Oh,

absolutely it could. I have, I know. The time who just talks a lot, like, trust me. Yeah, I know.

And you should see how distracted you become. Your eyes just glaze, I get worried about you when you get into one of your rants. And I wonder, maybe if he took a breath, he could focus and make a coherent point.

Trust me. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. talking too much i think can be can be distracting to people it depends again like i said some people benefit if some people don't i'm i'm i talk a lot of crap when i'm playing whatever you know wreckly garbage uh sports that i play but and again maybe i'd be better if i didn't i don't know but uh definitely talking i don't know i i don't like we said it didn't make a difference in this

for sure this one fight i i don't think it mad just a matter how people viewed it and sort of the presentation of it all right well listen good win for derrick brunson he deserves some praise we'll give it to him we got some big performances on saturday from Max Griffin, from Adrian Yanez. Grant Dawson, who tried to do what he always does to win fights. And then James Krause screamed at him and called him an MFer. And he got to finish, just like Mr. Krause wanted some, maybe. To be clear, because this is the thing that's bothered the hell out of me about that fight.

Krauss told him, like, in no uncertain terms, don't take him down. He did it anyway, but he did get the finish. So, like, James Krause, hell of a coach, I think he gave good instruction. but we shouldn't be like, ah, James Krause talked him into this win. Like, actually Grant Dawson did the exact exact point

he was told, but it worked out anyway. If you watch what I interview with Grand Dawson, he completely downplayed James Krause's speech, too. He goes, dude, I hear that all the time. It meant nothing, essentially.

He goes, I've gotten much worse. I got much worse before the fight. You ruined my mystique of that moment. I thought it was like, you, Strobber, you know, Simpsons,

use strawberry, hit a home run. And I thought, that's why Dawson about the finish, but I guess that's not the case. Yes, good win for Grand Dawson. Good win for Brito Silva. Great finish got a new contract.

Montel Jackson, Ty Tuvasa. They treated their massive underdog opponents accordingly. But all in all, good card this past Saturday. As we move ahead to the lightweight division, a lot has happened there. We are just, the heat is on here. Halfway through regulation, the point for round two goes to, I got to tell you. A.K., I am so impressed with you right now. That was, that was, that was, that was some amazing stuff.

You get the point, sir. Nice. Yeah. I was impressed. I thought, I thought, yeah. Yeah, I thought, that was, that was an amazing rebuttal. I got to give you that.

Good stuff, Jed. That might have been the best round in the history of this program. That was great stuff. Absolutely nonsense. Well, let's see. Let's see if it distracts you, Jed Michoud. You like to talk. Let's see if that gets in your head here.

But, uh, yeah, let's see. Listen, listen to your corner, Jed, let's near a corner. Okay. Last week, obviously filled with a lot of big news. We gave a quick reaction to all this news this past Friday, a.k. you were there, obviously. But let's dive a little deeper now that we have digested it a little bit more.

So Dana White officially took the white flag, waved it in the air in regards to Habib Narmaga Madov's comeback. Basically, nothing changed at all since October since UFC 254, despite the decisions and the dinners. in the conversations. Nothing changed. Habib did not come back. Whatever.

What, Jed? What? It's untrue. Something has changed, but I'll tell you about it when I get my time. All right. So something will change.

It's the division moving forward on May 15th. UFC 262 in Houston. Charles Olivera is going to fight Michael Chandler to crown a new champion at 155 pounds. Jed, your time starts now, my man. Your thoughts.

One, on the UFC finally moving on with the Habib Dream, at least for the time being, and two, is this the right fight to make to move this division forward? So one thing did change between October and now, and it's that Connor McGregor's coming off a loss.

That's it. That's the only thing to change. Dana was just obviously trying to set up a rematch that Habib would never take, but he got dollar signs in the eyes, couldn't let it go. Now Conner's lost,

and they're going to run it back with Porier, and that's at least $1 sign in the eyeball. so he feels okay. That's the only thing that's changed. As far as making this fight, this fight is objectively terrible as the vacant title bout.

I think it's honestly hilariously funny because Lightweight is unquestionably the best division of the sport and probably the best division ever. And I personally believe that this title will be the paperist of all paper championships in the history of the UFC.

like on paper by their own admission they have decided to replace the goat the greatest lightweight of all time one of the best fighters ever they are going to hand his mantle over to the winner of the number three versus number four dudes in the division

like that in it of itself is an admission that this is ridiculous my favorite thing about this is that depending on the outcome and kind of how the next couple of months play out, the UFC champion could very reasonably and very arguably be like the fifth best lightweight in the world because Habib, even though he's not fighting,

like if the aliens came down and said, pick your 155-pound champion to defend the planet, Habib's the dude, so he's the number one. Poir is obviously the number one above the three and four guys, even however this fight goes between them. Gachi, still ranked above both. Both of them still very arguably better than both of these two men.

If Michael Chandler wins, it was like a year and a half ago that Pipple put him on his ass, so Pipple's better than him. And then if Connor beats Poyer in their trilogy fight, Connor has just beaten the actual best lightweight on Earth, so he's better than either of those two dudes either. That's five guys that would have a legitimate claim to being better than the dude who's holding the belt of the premier organization. like this just screams and we we don't care we gave up like Connor is going to run it back

with Poyer and instead of making one fight for the belt which at least makes sense because the winner of that fight will arguably be better than the winner of this fight because the winner of that fight will either be the top lightweight in the world or the guy who beat the top lightweight in the world like this is the stupidest thing I've ever seen and I don't even understand it. Like is, is the argument that well, Connor doesn't deserve a title fight? No, he doesn't, but at least one person in that fight would deserve to be fighting for the belt, as opposed to two guys who kind of could fight for the belt, but are less deserving than demonstrably other people. This is the stupidest thing ever. The fight's good. Don't get me wrong.

Fight's going to be great. The winner's not the best lightweight in the world, though. So it's really stupid for them to get to hold a bill. A lot to unpack there, A.K., around a week has passed since we reacted to this news. I think the descriptive terms that Jed used to describe this fight was objectively ridiculous

and the stupidest thing we've ever seen. So what descriptive words would you use to describe this new title fight? And I don't think people are upset Charles Oliverers in the fight. Chandler seems to be the question mark here. Is this the fight to make for the title.

All right. What words would I use? The fight itself, exciting, exciting. I'm really looking forward to the fight. But the whole situation, frustrating. It is frustrating. And I'm particularly frustrated in this moment now because I really wanted to carry over the heat

that I feel like Jed and I were bringing up. I think those first two rounds were slobber knockers. I'll give him the credit for that. He stood in the pocket with me, who banged. It's great. But I am so frustrated by how this lightweight situation. Porreier and McGregor, the rematch, should have just been for the lightweight title.

Why, look, we said this months ago. We, I think a lot of the fans wanted to see it. It was the one situation where fans had been like, or even for an interim, you know what I mean? But fans would have been okay with that, with a title being vacated and put on the line. Yes, it's like, oh, McGregor is, it doesn't matter. Like we said, Pori is in there.

Porre is clearly right now the number one non-Habimabegov, lightweight in the world. So as long as he's in there, you can be kind of happy. And McGregor is North Gregory. You know, you can't argue who's got the star power. But we didn't get that, did we? We didn't get that. Now we're getting this trilogy bout, which is going to sell despite the fact that I don't

think anyone you ask, any other MMA fan you talk to really cares about. Like I said, we're all going to watch it. But is anyone, like, excited about it? I don't know one person who's, like, excited to see this trilogy about. So that's kind of a weird situation. Excited, Jed? I mean, I would prefer other fights because I want a boy to get the title. Well, a fight's going to be.

dope. All their fights have been dope. The first fight, that's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. I just wish, I just wish that again, the first fight had been for a title,

and then we could have gone in other directions. Like, I feel like that trilogy didn't need to happen right away. And again, but we all understand why it is. That's the thing is we can kind of question about what they're doing this,

and you answer the question about like two seconds. You're like, oh, yeah, there's 20 reasons why it's happening next. So it's frustrating. And that has all enough just engaged you out of, picture, a guy who I don't know if I agree, but I mean, people are saying why, you know, he

easily could have been thrown into a lightweight title shot. And again, while he wouldn't be my number one pick, I wouldn't complain, like, Olivera versus Gichi, who's going to say, who's going to say that's not a great title fight? So I really, really wanted to disagree with Jed here. And again, based on sort of the premise of the question, like, was this the fight to make? I mean, the answer is clearly yes, based on, but really based on how everything else is kind of shaken out around these guys and and to their credit putting themselves in position for charles ovarer eight fight win streak uh looked amazing and and like i tell you when he the way he beat ferguson i was very convinced that he was the guy i would want to see fopi be anybody else so where that's some

the actual rankings now i don't know like in your uh your mind speaking to the viewer i don't know but he's like somewhere you know he's definitely the top three somewhere right chandler talked his way into it let's be honest great performance amazing debut talked his way into it Jed mentioned, if you look at his three fights before coming to the UFC, it does not look like someone who is the number one contender for the UFC lightweight championship. That's just being honest with the respect for Drac Chandler and all he's done his career, recent performances, a little something to be desired, quality of opponent before Dan Hooker. So, and respect to Benson Henderson, but I mean, a very thorough match for challenge.

So, yeah, I'm not conceding this. I don't want to concede this round. I'm trying to make some points that are, but I'm languishing here to try and I admit to to try and disagree. with Jed because it's the fight that made sense. Is it the fight that crowns the rightful lightweight champion? I'm just going to, Mike, I'm just going to trail off here and just let you carry on the show. Okay.

So you make, you make a great point, okay. Chandler talked himself into the tight. No, no, no, because he talked him, he talked himself into it. He cut that promo after, but I'll tell you what else he did. He said, yes. When the phone rang and they said, hey, Chandler, we need you to fight in two or three weeks. the next pay-per-view card, you're going to fight Charles Charles Olivera, you down? He said, yep, got on a plane, went to Florida, got ready to train.

The fight didn't happen. And I think that's a big reason why he got the spot too, because he didn't say no when the phone rang and the question was asked to him. So I think that helps. But that fight is set for May 15. So kind of looking at the rest of this puzzle, Tony Ferguson and Benile Darius are going to fight at 262 as well. The UFC wants to do the trilogy fight between Dustin Poria and Connor McGrath. I know reports have surfaced this fight is a done deal for July 10th. I can tell you from where I sit right now, that is not the case.

In fact, they are a ways away from that fight getting done. Not saying that it won't get done. They're looking at that date, but we are pretty far away right now at the negotiation table. Justin Gachey, like you guys said, he's there without a dance partner right now. So I'm sure there's a part of him right now that hopes the negotiations continue to be a struggle between Poria and McGregor. So, okay, let's just say May 15th, May 16th, May 17th, let's just say these days, these dates keep coming along day by day. And McGregor says, you know what?

I'm throwing my hands in the air. Screw it. I'm not waiting on Dustin. I just want to fight. I'm not going to risk sitting out until the end of the year or sitting up the rest of the year to book this one fight. Get my ass in there. What do we do then?

What do we do then? How does this division shape up? at this point, if we can't get McGregorpori, because it's possible we don't get that fight on July 10. Put the ball on a T for him. Is this an impromptu? Is this an impromptu onto the next one, Mike? Are we doing it onto the next one?

Live, by the way, every Sunday, and download it all, guys, check it out on Monday, Monday podcast. Shut up, Jed. You're going to get your chance, too. Well, I don't know. I'll be honest. I know, I know he says that this has been teed up for me, but, you know, I'm a thinker outside the box. If McGregor said he just wanted to fight right away,

I mean, okay, look, obviously, yes, I mean, look, Gath G, that's a match. I think people want to see for a long time. That's, gosh, that fight would just be great. I want to, there's a comment in the, sorry, I know I'm sidetrackings here, there's a comment, and I have to give him credit because I'm about to steal this thought from, you know,

we do this live, but Monstro on the YouTube comment saying, Gathe's an absolute savage. I believe he's going to KO his next opponent. He has a chip, in his shoulder now. And that just has me thinking, man, I would not want to, considering how cheezed Justin Gaithji is right now, I would not want to be his opponent. But I mean, I get, but I mean, Conn McGregor would sign up for that opportunity in a second.

I don't think Conner McGregor really fears anybody. I don't think he definitely doesn't, I definitely don't think he fears Justin Gaichi. I think it's a stand-up battle that he would like. I don't think, I don't think, I think he would trust Gates'i not to go to the wrestling. So I think that's a great matchup. But there's one other matchup that entries me, guys. And I know you guys are going to laugh. Let them all lap.

I don't care. I biffed this round anyway. I still, there's a party of me, guys, that still wants to see Connor McGregor and Hafeiardo-Sanos. I don't know. I cannot let go. There's an alternate reality

where that fight happened, guys, and everything changed. Maybe we can fix MMA. This is like final destination, guys. Maybe we can fix MMA by closing that loop and making the fight happen. I'm sorry. I still want to see it.

I still want to see it. I know there's another name out there. And I know there's another name out. Go ahead, Jack. Go ahead. you shouldn't apologize it's like a totally interesting valid fight it could be fine with that fight but the answer is gaichi like if if connor decides that he doesn't want to wait before you which isn't going to happen that fight's going to get made and that's fine but the answer is gaichi

because for the last like five years gaetjean has been the best fight you can make like in the sport if you get rid of titles there is no fight that will be more interesting or compelling or fun as hell than those two dudes. Gachi is, for my money, the most exciting fighter in the history of sport. And the more he fights, the closer that's becoming to being like a statement of fact as opposed to an opinion. But like right behind him is Connor McGregor. Like for whatever you want to feel about who McGregor is as a person and a lot of the

other things that come with him, his in cage product is always exceptional to watch. And you pit those two against these two. other their styles like there is no fight I want more in the sport at one point it was Connor Habib for all the other stuff even though I was pretty confident how the fight would play out everything else about it was so dynamic and interesting that that was my number one fight and as soon as that fight happened is Connor Gaichi and that will probably be the case until one of them is either really old and not good anymore or they actually just do it so obviously that's the choice to make here I do want to just go all the way back to something

AK said like 20 minutes ago that I didn't get to respond to. Because I thought it was actually good and I want to give them props here. Not that this is a super original thought, but it is one that I think about a lot, which is why in fuck's name was Poirley versus McGregor 2, not for an interim belt? Because like I get that you don't want to make it the real title, but they gave interim belts for Habib's entire reign.

And then everything would be way better right now. if Ploier was just the champion? Or Connor had Connor won as opposed to this clown show or the number three guy is going to fight the number four guy to carry around a belt that means functionally nothing to anybody who follows a sport for real. 155 is getting some answers, not all of them. Dana White was asked by Aaron Bronsetter earlier today

about Dustin, why he wasn't in the title fight. And we all knew the answer to that, but Dana confirmed it. He said no to the title fight. I want the Conner fight. They're going to try to make that happen. I feel like they will make it happen. Justin Poria wants to be paid, and he deserves damn well to be paid

as much as he can make right now, and then he'll get the winner. Dana White said, as far as Justin Gaci goes, it's, we'll get him something, and then he could be next to fight the winner of Chandler and Oliver. And if that's the case, then good for him. But we move on to...

They don't have anyone to get him. Like, RDA is the only fight that's like really viable for him and it sure seems like they're going to do the RDA and Mockachachiev fight like there's nobody for Gai Chi to fight right now also I think RDA a really good fight but I just don't think they're going to do it just jump up to 117 and fight fight and eight make that money son make that money until the title fight comes you want to talk about a fight that I don't have interest in that one but people would buy it people would care it's something to keep him busy it's a fight he probably win

people have a really bad misconception about how entertaining Nadeo is. Nadeez is super smart and really good at the business of M.A. Not somebody who's like, ah, I need to watch this fight. Fair enough. Is he good at the business of M.A. anymore?

I don't know if he, I don't even know if he's good of the business of M.A. anymore. Thank you, probably. Maybe he was. He's still pretty good. He knows it he's worth. But anyways, we're going to move on to some

anyways we're going to move on to some other massive news that we found out yesterday but the point for round three goes to jed meshou it's two to one yeah yeah i would have given up i gassed out i guess out i get look i got listen listen i gassed out i clearly there's no there's anyone watching you can see i gassed out after that second round i'm getting my second win i kind of take that one off look i've never stood in the pocket and traded with jed before let's be honest anyone who's seen me go against jett before i kind of like to stay on the outside he's he's dangerous he's he's dangerous he's Like, I don't know. He's very unpredictable. I kind of, if he gets to, I like to clinch up.

You know, I definitely guess, you know, I'll maybe throw a few points, and I'll clinch up and kind of like try and push him to the fence. This is the first time I tried to, like, stand in the pocket with him. It was scary. It was scary. It was exhilarating, but scary. And I definitely gassed out. But I'm back.

I'm definitely back for the fourth round. So for anyone, anyone supporting me. I apologize. It was a bad round. It was a bad round. Clear Jed round. Clear Jed round. All right.

Well, let us move ahead to, uh, some surprising news that we found out yesterday. former UFC women's band-in-weight champion, Misha Tate, who was serving as the VP of one championship, since she announced her retirement. That was at what, U.S.C. 205. She lost to Raquel Pennington. She retired, took on her behind-the-scenes role with one.

She's coming back to the UFC. She's going to fight Marion Reno on July 17th. She said, who, Marion Reno, excuse me, said she's going to retire after the fight, win, lose, or draw. But the big story here, obviously, AK is Misha Tate's coming back. Your reaction to this news, AK, how surprised were you? Let me go back to my Prince of Positivity, my natural state. I love it. Mike, I love it.

I, I, I, it's funny. I hadn't even realized how young she still is. She's only, she's 34 years old, which I get it. She's, you know, in fighter year, she did have quite a career when she stepped away from the sport at the age of 30. So there was, you know, there's fighter mileage on there that we talk about. But I think stepping away was obviously a great thing for her health. It certainly left the door open. I don't recall at the time, maybe I'm misremembering. I don't recall at the time when she first tired. Everyone's saying like, oh, yeah, she's done. She's never coming back. I think there was a sense that she had said herself, she was burnt out, that Raquel Pennington fight mentally. She just wasn't there. And everyone could understand why.

She'd been fighting at such a high level for so long. And she wanted, you know, probably wants to do other things in life, like start a family, which she's done now. She has two children now. I'd like to take some credit, I think, for this comeback when I interviewed her about a year and a half ago. I said, I said, Misha is, you know, her daughter was 16 months old at the time. And I said, if you were to come back, would that be a motivating factor, you know, wanting to fight for, you know, so your kid could see you, could see mom, how what mom used to do for really, really do for a living, you know, beat people up. And she said, no, she completely shot down my question and said, no, it's not a factor. And it's probably stopped short of calling me an idiot and saying it was stupid. But, but guys, I think I planted the seed.

Do you see? I think I planted the seed in there. The idea was in there, and I take credit for it, okay? So that kid now is obviously probably almost three years old. She has another child now, and I think that's some motivation. So I take credit for it. So I love her coming back. Look, as for what it means for the UFC and why I think it's a good idea,

the women's band-o weight division is not super compelling. It's a nice way to – I'm trying to be positive here. It's not exactly a murderer's role of challengers that we're all kind of waiting to see get a shot at Amanda Nunez. And even though, look, her first opponent's going to be Marion Renaud, who is called in a retirement fight, has lost four straight fights. It's really not crazy to say that up an impressive performance and a good callout puts Misha Tate away, like one more fight away after that from a title shot.

It absolutely could happen. I don't know why it should happen. I don't think anyone has forgotten how the first fight with Amanda Nunez went, but I think it's a great business decision for everyone involved. So I'm all for it. Prince of Positivity, two thumbs up. Welcome back, Mishit. Jed, how do you feel about this news?

Are you, were you surprised? Did you have any reaction at all? You got that look on your face? Like, something's coming. So go ahead. I'd like to thank AK, because when I saw this question was coming, I was like, okay, I don't really have much to say here. Like, cool, glad she's back.

Solid Edition. Didn't see it coming. Like, that kind of came out of nowhere, but that's interesting. Fortunately, AK gave me plenty to talk about when he decided to take credit for it in one of the boldest things I've ever seen in the media space. Well, I interviewed her two years ago. I'm not sure, but I feel like maybe you want to come back when your child wants to watch. And now that your child is two and still won't have any concept of what this means.

And we'll probably be horrified. Almost three. Almost three. This is clearly the motivation for you to return at this point. I don't know. I mean, states come back. She said that she's in a better mental space. I hope that's true.

But really, I hope that at some point in the future, she's like, actually, I came back because I talked to Alexander Lee with MMA fighting, and he was like, man, you should do it in a couple years. And I was like, yeah. And I just thought about it forever. Like, I hope that's it because that is among the best things I've ever heard anybody ever say. I would personally like to take credit for the Connor versus. Floyd Mayweather fight because I one time wrote an article about that like a year and a half

before it happened. But I took for TMZ, but because I wrote the article about it, I would like to have a percentage of those proceeds. Connor talks to my manager. As far as the actual topic here, again, I don't really have too much. It is good for Tate to be back. I have no idea actually going to look. She's been off for five years.

Like maybe the game's passed or by. I think it probably hasn't because if you look at the name, at the top of the Bannonweight division. Not a lot of growth in that particular division, but she would be a welcome addition. I think that this adds a back pocket fight for the UFC, the Tate Home rematch. Like, that's going to happen at some point.

That's cool. That'll be good entertaining, probably a fight night headliner. That's cool. I am stunned to learn, which I just did when I was, when AK was talking, that Mary Reno is still ranked despite losing four in a row.

so a win from Tate here will probably put her in the top 10 Bannamweight. So she is going to be a factor. Like she is not coming back and we'll just piddle around and not matter. Like she's going to be a factor. She's got a huge name, obviously. So the few young people that are in that division will call for fights with her. Honestly, the thing that I'd be the most interested in, but I don't think we're going to get based on some of the things Tate said,

I think she would be a really interesting challenger. for Valentina Shevchenko. And again, biggest Jeff Chank, I drive the bullet train, but new blood for Chiv Chanko to defend against and somebody with a name like Tate, I do ultimately, I would obviously favor of Shvchenko.

But I think that if Tate is anywhere where she was, you know, when she was at her peak, that's a compelling fight. I think she could make the weight, but I'm not sure she wants to, so that might just be wishful thinking on my part. But in general, happy to have her back, good addition.

It's always better to have more fighters that people care about, and that's what we're going to get. All right. Well, for the interest of time, we're going to move ahead. It's definitely big stories, especially. Can I read it on this? Since I've been exposed as being cheating and reading the comments anyway. Jed, there's a very, Natalie Duran, a regular viewer of our MA fighting program says, Jed looks like a guy who played a prince in a movie or TV show.

What a nice thing to say. That is really generous. Was I a drug prince? I wanted to make sure. I just wanted to make sure I was like, did she say it? I wasn't sure if you said you looked like a prince. That beautiful. I wasn't sure you look like a prince or someone who has played prince.

I was like, I'm pretty sure, okay, it's a prince. Oh, if there's somebody who's played prince, that's awesome. That's the best compliment. Oh, it is. There is a A in there. But I'd be good. Thank you. Thank you, Natalie for complimenting.

Thank you. Thank you, Natalie. Okay, so for the interest of time, because AK is the reason why Misha Tate is back, he has tied the score. Okay, he planted the steeds. He has tied things up. I've got an early take down there. I got an early take down, and I just held, I held Jed down.

I held Judd down for five minutes. All right, so it is time for the knockout round. One question will decide at all. Neither competitor knows what they'll be answering. I don't even know what the hell I'm going to be asking at this point because this, my brain. I've lost brain cells with this whole matchup. It's been great. But they're each going to have one minute to respond. Once they do with the help of all of you, we turn it over to Casey Liden, the judge, the jury of the executive producer, who will hopefully

decide a winner this week after a draw between Jose Young's and Sarah Kaufman last week. So that said, Jed, pick a number between one and 30. Eight. A.K. 18. The number is 12. A.K. Why didn't you just say nine? like you had so much of an advantage if you just said nine

he's muted I want to get right on the dot no I want to get right on the dot I felt 18 and I said 18 I don't play that one dollar price is right game all right all right I respect that bad choice so Jed all right Jed do you want to answer this first and you want to go to pass it over to AK first

I'm hoping AK pulls another Kamara Usman so I would certainly like him to shoot himself in the foot before I even have to play. You fool! You fool. Mike, he felt, see, do you see the other reason I didn't,

I didn't pick nine? He fell right into my trap. Oh, you fool, Jedd. Did he? Because you haven't heard the question at AK. I go first every time, all right? We know this is the rule. All right, I got exactly what I wanted.

Let's go, Mike. If we are going to get a Kamar, if we are going to get a Kamar Uisman answer, we're going to get a, it with this question, believe it or not, because we still have, we still have Saturday to come. We got Francis and Steepa. We're going to take that event out of the equation for the time being. First quarter of 2021 is about to come to an end.

Second quarter, we're going to have much more of a sample size. We've got one on TNT coming a few cards there. Bellator is coming back. PFL's coming back. But the question is, AK, through the first quarter of 2021 in the UFC, hell, you can go all of M.M.A. if you want. Who is your MVP for the year so far after one quarter and why? One minute on the clock and go. Here's your, here's your, here's your, here's your, here's your, here's your, here's your, one answer, everyone. My MVP of 20, 21 so far has to be, we said before earlier the most,

the most, the, there could be a new most paper champion. No, no, no one will become more paper champion than this man. Al Jermaine Sterling. God bless this man for creating this crazy, headline. I guess you could also credit Piotr-Yon. But I'm going to say, Al-Amei's talking for the way he's handled the situation, becoming the first UFC champion to do so by disqualification. Call it shameful. Call it a fluke. Call it just downright silly, which is probably where I would classify it.

But I love, I very much like how he's handled things. I'm not saying everything he said after has been, has been note perfect. Maybe he could stay off the web a little bit. Maybe you don't need to be on social media all the time. But I like that he's at least kind of settled into, you know what? I'm the champion. This is my belt. I can do with it what I want.

I'm going down in the history books. It's a champion at 135. Nothing's going to change that. So until this rematch happens or I have to defend the title, this is how it is. This is reality, people. So Al Jemaine Sterling,

you're the man right now. Okay. Jed Mishu, we go to you. Same question. One minute on the clock. Your time starts now. Leon Edwards. Come on, man.

This is super obvious. I'm really great. really grateful A.K. decided he didn't want to win, uh, because he actually, like, totally could have won if he just picked the low-hanging fruit. It's Dustin Boyer. He's the best lightweight that's not Habib. He knocked out Connor McGregor, which was chef's kiss beautiful. Uh, he's been the dude we've been talking about this whole time. Like, if the year ended right now, what are we going to remember 2021 for? It's going to be for the diamond and, and for knocking out the guy who beat him, coming this, I'm not going to call a superstar yet, but building on that. And establishing himself

as the best lightweight that's not Habib, like, when you add in all the other stuff that he launched his hot sauce, it apparently is good and not a hot sauce dude. And he's just a great person. Like, he's a really good human being. Like, there's no other choice here, but Dustin Poirier. I respect Aljo. I wish he'd lean in more to it, but Poir is the answer. all right now normally we would allow the viewers to chime in with their picks and I would just run off a bunch of stuff that's going to be happening this weekend on emma fine we don't have time for that because in a matter of moments in about seven minutes from right now I'm going to be talking to demetrius johnson so we got to wrap this puppy up we're going a little bit longer than we expected so we turn it on over to the honorable e casey lied and the man with the gavel Casey has the big decision he's got his hands full Casey who will face Jose Young's for the strap right here live next week. Your winner. Oh, boy. Jedmish you. Five-oh we've ever had on this show. Because it feels like the first five-oh we've ever

have on this show. Oh, man. There's confetti falling in an empty kitchen right now. Ah, he feels like he got the big fat hose job from Casey. All right, Jed. I'd just like to congratulate AK with the first, the first BTO contestant to have double-digit losses. That's why you picked more than anything else. All right. Melissa, we're running out of time here.

It goes to lose. I thought he was going to go with Kamar Usman is the answer there, to be perfectly honest. I should have. It actually would have made sense this time. I'm saying. I thought as soon you said, I got your come on a room to answer for you, Algeman Sterling.

It's great. A.K. It gets two losses today. Scott McCrae in the comments, right, robbery review. This is great. You know what? More content for the site

because there would be a robbery review for this BTL tomorrow. We should. We should have it. All right, Jed, you got 30 seconds. Talk about whatever it is. Good, bad, and different about MMA. I already think I know where you're going with this,

but the floor. or yours? Very quickly. Shout out to Yanni Blocko. I haven't been able to talk about how great he is, but I love everything about him. But really, the only thing to talk about, I mean, there are a lot to talk about.

White Circus is back, ladies and gentlemen. April, I think 12th, Fight Circus 3, fissing for dollars. I talked about it last week with Joseeons on the A side. It's back. They've got a wheel of violence. You spin it and you get to pick your weapon, basically. So is it all headbutters?

Is it a left-way fight? It's going to be awesome. I love white circus. It's very dumb and the best thing that's happening with this sported in a given time. So, yeah, tune in. It's going to be great. Oh, man, AK, you are the man. This was, I got to say, in the host seat, this is the best, this is the best match of ever.

This is so much fun. My face heard some laughing. I was impressed with both of you gentlemen equally. somebody had to lose and unfortunately it was you AK and it's okay it's all right you're still the co-host and the co-matchmaker and you're still the best friend so that that that that weighs more than gold and victories and title values all that stuff wow best friend huh that hurts but okay thanks Mike okay oh man okay all right listen we're out of here Jed versus Jose next week should be a lot of fun. We got all your 260 coverage coming up over the next couple of days. Stick with

M-Mayfiting.com. A.K. is going to bring the heat the rest of the weekend in on Sunday and on to the next one. So thank you for watching for Jed for A.K. E. Casey Liden. I am Mike Eckek, the iconic voice of Esther Lynn. Perhaps we'll take you out, but we'll see you back here next week. Between the Links. Good night, everybody. This has been Between the Links. I'm Esther Lynn. Thanks for watching. Click the subscribe button. Leave a comment. I don't know. Listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network.