MMA Fighting - BTL | Francis Ngannou vs. Dana White, Petr Yan's Masterpiece At UFC 323, More

Episode Date: December 11, 2025

The UFC just ended their pay-per-view era with UFC 323, and this Saturday, the promotion's relationship with ESPN comes to an end. With Petr Yan's incredible performance over Merab Dvalishvili to regain the bantamweight title opening many eyes, the final PPV appeared to be quite the success for the hardcore fan base. On an all-new edition of Between the Links, the panel discusses Yan's all-time great showing against Dvalishvili to become a two-time bantamweight champion, where both guys go from here, and how Dvalishvili and his team have handled the loss. Additionally, topics may include Joshua Van becoming the flyweight champion after Alexandre Pantoja suffered an unfortunate injury in the co-main event, Dana White once again saying Arman Tsarukyan has more work to do in order to get a title shot, UFC Vegas 112 this weekend headlined by a pivotal flyweight bout between Brandon Royval and Manel Kape, Francis Ngannou's comments earlier this week, and much more. Join MMA Fighting's Mike Heck and Jed Meshew as they answer your questions all show long. Follow Mike Heck: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@m_heckjr⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow Jed Meshew: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@JedKMeshew⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Subscribe:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ http://goo.gl/dYpsgH⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Check out our full video catalog: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠http://goo.gl/u8VvLi⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Visit our playlists:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ http://goo.gl/eFhsvM⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Like MMAF on Facebook: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠http://goo.gl/uhdg7Z⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow on Twitter: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠http://goo.gl/nOATUI⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Read More: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠http://www.mmafighting.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Learn more at snapdragon.com slash laptops. Battery life varies significantly based on device, settings, usage, and other factors. You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. Live from M.M.A. Fighting Studios, this is Between the Links. And now, your host, Mike Heck. The iconic voice of Esther Lynn welcomes you to a brand new edition of BTL. Happy Thursday to us all. Hope you're all doing great.

We are coming off of a fun, memorable, wild UFC, 323 event. We have two brand new UFC world champions in Peter Jan and Joshua Van. We'll obviously discuss that. Dana White has said some stuff. Francis Ngano is maybe the most awkward fighter doing an interview in the history of the sport. We'll talk about that, answer your questions, and much more. And joining me to do exactly that, actually, it's going to be multiple people this week.

You guys have been saying... Oh, did I die? Or did Mike die? Where did I go? There we go. Mr. Dough Gray area himself, the hot take kid, all of the things. And his dog, or at least his dog today. And what it only, Jed Bishu.

Jed, how are we doing? Otto's my neighbor's dog, but Otto stays with me a lot when my neighbor has to go into the office for a long day. And Otto's back, as you see. It's cold here. I have a hat on. Otto has a jacket on. Auto doesn't really want to be up here. but Otto wanted to say hi.

Hi. Hi, Otto. Look those eyes. Just a comfortable dog. Loves being on camera. I mean, built for camera. Built for camera. Absolutely.

So, Jed, we are heading into the final week of the UFC's very hectic schedule, UFC Vegas 112, Minel Kopp versus Brennan Royval, which actually got quite a bit more interesting after everything that went down this past weekend. And that fight is, I mean, it was pivotal nonetheless, but now I think the stakes are raised even more, more so in the Menel cop side. But yeah, we are, we're back at the apex. We have a six-fight main card, I believe, and a 10 p.m. Eastern main card start time, which just is the worst. We're finishing on a high no, baby. We sure are, Jed.

How we feel here? Five farts. Five farts. That's what I've given this card. Show your work. Except for I'm sure it will fall off because I doubt the main. event we'll hold up. Yeah, you know, some fights

are happening this weekend. We probably should have ended it on 323. That was a good event. This is not a bad event. It's a perfectly fine apex event. 10 p.m. Star Time is tough. And especially because, you know, we'll be you and I and the rest of the people who work in MMA

will be on a full day duty because we do have PFO Leon as well. So I think that starts like 11. so it's just like right on right on through the day with fist fights but it's cold here i can't i couldn't really go golfing on saturday anyway so eff it let's watch some fist fights for the last time because also mike the other thing you know it we got to save this up it's going to be quite some time until we get more fights and so maybe it's even nice that they're giving us those extra few hours because we won't get fights again until jan 24 so would rather have Jan 24 plus, you know, four hours, or would you rather have this gap

shorten just a little bit with the 10 p.m. start time. I'll take the other option. It's just, I don't want to be watching Apex fights until 2 a.m. I just, I just don't. I just don't. It's not the, like, again. It's the last time you'll do it for almost two full months. Those are actually in fact, two full months. But those are just, yeah, but those are the numbered events i don't know if the apex events are going to be the same i mean but we still won't have an apex event until feb seven so terrific almost two full months before you have to do this again that's true and then hey next week we got all all the all the circus going out jacke paul anthony joshua misfits mania all the all the circus chaos all going down nonsense yes uh all right let's let's go to the

the peeps of course are wonderful super chatters you get to the to the to the cut to the friend of live we'll have another you know sort of live btl i believe next week and then the following week will be uh the promotional airing of grievances episode which you are i am always very excited about uh we're i guess that makes sense that thursday would in fact be christmas so yeah we probably won't be going live oh god though that sounds yeah we'll be we'll be that thing will be in the can early next week. There'll be lots of stuff in the can early next week. More to come on that. But yes, promotional agreement of grievances coming in a couple weeks. We'll have the our awards coming up. Our award show will be coming up as well. The on to the next one

predictions extravaganza. So even though the UFC is off for quite some time, we will not be. We will have plenty of programming coming your way. So stick with us. Mafluncom. It's a terrific website. Let's start with Joseph. Dana through arman under the bus at ufc 323 is he trying to save face with the fact that ufc 324 is patty and justin for an interim belt as the main event i don't know if this decision is helping him save face at all because people are really pissed off about this jed yeah i don't i also don't know how this would help him save face that it's for an interim belt like i don't i don't i guess i like core concept don't get the question um and i but i don't think he's doing this for any reason other

than like they made the fight that they were going to make and there's clear there's been clear backlash and Dana White has never once said oh perhaps I was wrong and so he his response is just to get mad that people are mad and not to at all reflect on why that might be the case and again like if everybody was just honest I think we could all at least be on the same page and We might not like that page, but it would feel better if they were just like, yeah, we, we want Justin Gagey and Patty Pimbled to fight because this is our first new event under the Paramount Banner. We believe a bunch of new people are going to tune in for the first time because there's no longer, you know, there's a paywall, but it's a paywall, you know, it's a $10 paywall for the service that a lot of people already have. We are trying to rope in new fans. and while Armin could be fun,

Gachy versus Pimbley, there's simply no way that fight is not going to deliver in a way that people will be interested in, like that very casual first-time viewers will be interested in. And so, like, that, to me, it's very clear that that is the calculus. And Justin Gagey basically said the same thing at the, it's on, whatever, the seasonal press conference that they did last week. And, like, but Dana can't really say that as the promoter.

Even though that's obviously the truth of the matter. And so, and then he just gets mad because people are like, well, this is stupid. And then he, well, you're stupid and Armand's stupid. And the part of it that was all like not crazy or any, but like was ironic is that Dana said the stuff he said about Armand like three days after they're in front of the committees arguing for like, not Dana specifically, but like Dana's people are being like, hey, we. We want to amend the Ali Act because, you know, we want and hear X, Y, and Z. And there are some reasons that are good, most of them are bad. Like, yeah, I don't give a book about my rankings. I'll do whatever I want.

And it's like, okay, why have them? And whenever things like this happen, I always just, I just wish somebody would ask the question. Like, okay, why have rankings? have rankings if you don't care about them what is their purpose uh because it doesn't make sense to me it's very very weird um i don't get it like i again i i i'm with you that i understand why the ufc is putting that fight in the main event mostly because like they're like you said you're they're trying to capture a new audience and in order to do that you need to put a face forward that will help people or at least guide people

to buying a subscription to Paramount Plus in order to watch this event. As much as I love Kayla Harris and Amanda Nunes, and I love that fight. That fight could suck. It could suck, but the promotion is going to be awful. Like, neither of those two are going to sit there, and no one's going to push each other. And even, like, with Patty and Gaichi being very respectful towards each other, it's going to get to a point where Patty is just going to say a bunch of weird things. And that will hype up the fight.

And the UFC is very good at pushing. narratives and telling stories. It's very pro wrestling, but they're very good at that. And Patty is a great person to kind of guide out there as the face of this first event in order to drive traffic. At least they could put him in a position where, oh, let's pay the $9.99

a month or whatever it's going to be. And watch this dude get his ass beat. If they have to do that, they will. So, and there's Otto. Otto wants to see him get his ass beat. Yeah. He just bought a subscription. Ass beating. Yeah. Paramount Plus.

So, yeah, there you have it. Mysterious MRJ. Did you guys see Islam talking about Usman being a tougher fight for him than Morales and Pratchez? It's terrible, Mike. It's terrible. I hate it. But you want to know what I thought of first, what I saw these comments? Yeah, he knows he's not getting Usman.

No, I thought about you because there is a, there's another name in this conversation who you've been pushing very hard. and you feel like is the no-brainer that he did not mention at all in this conversation because he knows that he probably beats Kabar Usman, but that is Shafkat Rakbadov. He also didn't mention Ian Gary for some reason, which if I had to guess, I think the UFC is going to probably push more towards the Gary fight than any of the others. But who the hell knows at this point? But yeah, this is just bad. Like we know exactly what this is.

this is somebody in Islam's ears just saying, do this. And it's probably the guy who manages both of them. And he is prize fighting. I do not blame him for this. But this, again, this whole notion that Ousman is this gigantic superstar, and this is the must-see fight of the UFC, is utterly ridiculous. I just do not understand where this is all coming from. This continues to be the narrative that everybody is pushing. This is by far the biggest fight the UFC can make right now, which is just not true to me, Jed.

It's just not true. If we're doing that, just give them the friggin Tuporia fight because that is actually the biggest fight. I mean, yeah, the Tuporia fight is definitely the biggest fight. Also, like, the biggest fight doesn't matter. Like, if we say that, like, that's relevant. Like, Islam versus John Jones is the biggest fight they could make.

We're not talking about doing that. George St. Pierre is legitimately a much bigger fight. We're not considering that as a thing. Like, it's silly. And while I understand it, again, Part of me, like, I was this way with the whole John Jen thing. Like, I don't, I understand it, but I still want to blame you a little bit for it. Because especially with Islam, because, like, I don't know how good Islam Makhchev is.

I think he's exceptional. I'm fairly certain of that. But his whole lightweight run was weird. And a lot of that's not his fault, right? Like, he could only do what could be done. And he did it as best as possible. But, like, the knock on his claim, like, he's not the lightweight goat. and the knock on his career thus far has been like,

oh, well, he fought Volk twice, who's a featherweight, and the Moikano fight is Moikano, right? And Poirier's passed his prime. And like, you know,

the Oliver wins terrific, obviously, but it's just a little, it was just a little weird. And now he goes up, and Jack Della was the just, like, the just legitimate welterweight champion,

and you can't really knock that. But nobody thought Jack was the welterweight champion at the start of this year. He just sort of fell into it. it because Shavcott got hurt and so you can't blame him for that but you know the jack win i think will age well but it also it feels a little wonky it's not like he upended a long reigning champion and now if his first defense is going to be kamar friggin oosman or whatever it's like dude can you just fight the best dude in the world like three times in a row three times in a row just

fight the number one guy and again not all this is your fault you were going to fight arm it that was clear cut but like just do that for me and the part that really like personally offends me as i've spent the past year defending islamakachev from the insane allegations of ilia tepuri a psychopaths who are like he's ducking ilia you know he's and like no he's moving up the same way ilia is moving up it's ludicrous to suggest that this is ducking and this isn't ducking but it's still just like dude you're not just be normal fight fight the normal person like that was why you were cool in general

every champion who's ever been cool has been like yeah just let me fight the toughest dude possible and you're like Kamar Usman's the toughest guy possible and nobody believes that not a single human being alive believes that I don't even think you believe that your manager believes it because he gets double pay

if he gets two dudes in a title fight like it's silly and I hate this no one and again this is no one's docking with Kabar Uso does a Because he has accomplished a lot. The fact of the matter is, this man has won one fight in the last four years.

It was against Joachim Buckley and his win before that in 2021 was against Colby Covington in a rematch that only Dato White wanted. No one else asked for that fight. It was a great fight. And if it was another round, I think Colby would have beat him. And there are a lot of people who fail Colby won that fight. I don't. I thought it was been won. I thought he clearly lost the last two rounds and lost.

the back half of that fight but it's been won. But it wasn't a fight like no one asked for that fight and you want to know what's common about this one no one is asking for this there is not a fan not a fan alive who wants it

yeah there there isn't this uproar on social media saying we have to see Islamakachev fight Kamar Usman nobody is asking for this no one so I don't understand why this is being pushed on our throats when no one is asking for this I love the

Wallace fight. I think that is incredibly fascinating to me. I want to know how Islam deals with the guy like that who's so big, strong and physical has really good takedown defense that nobody has really seen. I want to see that fight. I think he just beats him in the feet because Michael Morales is like powerful, but he's not very technical. But I, you know, I'd watch that fight. Yeah, I'd be happy to watch that fight. Uh, somebody in the comments and that they already scroll past and I'm going to find it. Um, said this is on the UFC as I'm just saying what he prefers. And that's, I'm just saying what he prefers. And that's, and that's, true like if the UFC books this this is primarily on the UFC it's also on Islam like if if you're going to tell me what you prefer at least be honest about it say I want Kumar Usman because he is the easiest paycheck and then I'm okay with it but don't

lie to me and tell me he's the most difficult that's a lie it's an obvious and abject lie like Shavkat Rachmanov who you haven't mentioned is clearly a more difficult fight Michael Morales is clearly more deserving and like you can you know his statement of I believe

leave Kamar Usman runs over Ian Ritchado Gary, Michael Morales. And make him fucking do it. Make him prove that he can do it because your belief is for shit. It doesn't mean anything. This isn't a world of wishes and dreams. It's a world of what have you done? And he has beaten Joaquin Buckley in the last five years. Like, this is, it's on him to call for something that's clearly self-serving and not in

the interest of the merit of the sport. It is more on the UFC if they do book it because their job is to do, right, but we can be upset with him for asking for this in general, and really, I'm mostly upset with just the lies. It is a lie. He does not believe Kamar Usman is a more difficult fight than these other guys. Kamar Usman is nearly 40 and doesn't have working knees. This is just all I ever want. Everyone is for a fighter to

just be honest with me. No, we'll be mad about it. Like, if John Judge just said, like, I want to beat Stepe, because it's the easiest fight I make it make a lot of money I would have gone down so much better for me still would have been bad and we could still critique it but it's at least not bad and a lie yes I'll throw this up uh random question but who is the guy who would always hate on new york rick every chance he got back and he was with m a funny of course I have no idea but i used to kill us in those tweets Achilles junior no it's somebody else Achilles just like i mean Killers Jr. definitely hated on Rick a lot.

Yeah, but it was more of like, uh, there's more of like a joking matter trying to like get a rise out of him in a fun way. There was someone like literally on Twitter who would just rip him to shreds. And then he would all Rick would always drop like the same meme, this like thumbs up thing. It was very, very funny. Um, it was always the response to this dude, uh, this person just kept going after him. Uh, for whatever reason, no idea why, no idea what he needs a hobby.

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or you can stop by your local CVS pharmacy, CVS Pharmacy today. Uh, lazy bit. Mara Batista set to face Venetius Olivera in a February 7th main event. Does Loke Dog find himself in title talks with a W over Wario? He's Mario. He got his name back. We allowed him to have his name back.

Uh, so this is a thing. Penn has not gone to paper just yet from what I have been told. Uh, but this is. believe the UFC announced it yesterday i believe they announced it yesterday yeah but that isn't always mean pen has gone i mean correct it doesn't i'm just saying i believe the ufc has announced it now yeah but this is uh this is the fight this is the first apex main event of the paramount era jedvishu thoughts and the thoughts about not just the matchup but the stakes involved more so for loke dog good fight um sort of the perfect like apex main event for the new era right

Like, Mario is, what is he? Hold on. He's number nine in the UFC rankings right now. Bloke Dog is unranked, I believe. Unranked, yeah. He's looking at it right now. But like he'll get a ranking. He won't be in title talks if he beats Mario.

But, you know, he'll be one win away. That's sort of the spot that victory would put you in. Except for what is everybody's kind of a lot away and close right now. Because of the, Yon sort of kicked over the apple cart. Nobody is really anticipating that to happen. And now a lot of stuff's in play. And we talked about the post show. You guys talked about it on to the next one.

John O'Malley's got a big fight coming up. If Sean O'Malley wins, he is almost certainly going to get a title fight against Beauder Yon. You know, Marab has said the UFC has promised him an immediate rematch whenever he is ready to come back. You know, we'll see how that holds up. but he deserves it insofar as that's kind of how these things go but like you know you've got sean o'malley or frankly a song you don't beat john o'malley he's right there in line marob's in line so those two are are right there and then umar's book right gets figgy oh and then umar wins like that's that's three hot names right there all all like very much in the mix and so loch dog

is just not even if he beats mario he's just not around it right now um yeah it's a hobby coming up yeah talbot coming up like there's i mean honestly he's fighting he's probably fighting is a hobby is what's happening if he beats old uh batista that's almost certainly what they're going to do because you've just got to start chewing through some of the top 10 contenders or whatever but uh bannon whites got a lot going on right now man it does it's a very weird division um i think marab has handled like i thought marab handled this last great for like 48 hours and now he's back to being morab again like what are we doing here this guy like just he gets it

and then he doesn't so fast this happened all week what's happening and then the the john wood stuff is just so bad like you the confidence this man has in saying that his fighter is up three rounds but then also saying at the beginning of the interview with damon martin that he didn't even rewatch the fight it's just wild to me that he is the only person on planet earth besides maybe other members of DeVolish Rilly's team who felt like Marab won this fight. It's just so crazy to me. It really is. The handling of this loss from Team Marab has been atrocious.

It really has. Yeah, I'm trying to give them a little bit of grace in general because, you know, is your guy, you back your guy, multiple people coming out and be like, I kind of thought Marab won, even if that's true. And like that, that can be true, right? Like, we all have rose-colored glasses when it comes to our favorites and our friends, et cetera. Like, it's totally, that fight was competitive enough that if you are just, you know, tunnel vision on your guy, sure, you could think that. But read the room.

It, it, it, every, you just got to read the room. The amount of things I don't say, Mike, because I can just read the room and be like, I don't need that headache. Like, there's no reason for Aljo and John Wood to come out and be like, actually, I think he won't. three rounds. Like, no, you don't, nobody believes that. Nobody on earth thinks that. And so acknowledge that you're probably wrong and you just don't need to say it. And you don't even have to, right? Like, if this was his first title fight, okay, maybe you're trying to make the case to get

him back, like, quick. No, the entire case is, look, you know, Marab, maybe didn't fight his best fight. Congrats to Peter Yam, which they said a lot. And so that's where I'm trying to give them credit. they have they have not detracted from peter yon in this which is i think good right um but they have tried to be like oh we still think we kind of maybe won that fight even though yon did really well and no the line is just yon did really well we didn't have our best stuff that night um you know where we've done as much as anyone has done we obviously deserve an immediate rematch we have a dominant win it's one one let's settle this as we do in the cage and that's everyone is on everyone understands and acknowledges that that's what will and should happen but you don't have to again

i don't this is less bad than islam lying about usman which i don't believe he believes because i do think they believe it but just like read the room and say this isn't the time to be like actually we won in the same way it was bad when omali did it to you like acknowledge that when o'malley did it to you you thought that was insane and kind of annoying you just don't have to do it and just be like yeah man it happens we fall four times in the year probably one the best idea this is not this is not as bad as how i viewed marup after he won the belt this is not because that was bad that's why he was the turkey of the that's why he was the turkey was tough in 2024 because it was brutal his his self-inflicted PR was some of the worst i've ever it was the worst start of a championship run i've

ever seen has bad PR he's got to get offline is the thing yeah i agree the the tweets yesterday of like when pyrion who pretty i think obviously didn't run his social media accounts because he's like that dude doesn't speak ever so why would he tweet you know like that doesn't it doesn't seem like his vibe and then you know he doesn't interview with somebody in russia or wherever and it's like they're like oh i see you made up with him he was like no we're not friends he was talking to my manager and for marab to then like get upset about that and be like oh you said we're not even friends well, you're a poophead. Like, dude, just, you don't have to tweet about it, man.

You can just be like, okay, we'll fight again. We don't have to be friends. He didn't even say anything like super disrespectful. He was just like, no, we won't be friends. He was talking to my manager. It wasn't like, F that dude, he's a piece of shit. It was like, I, everybody, stop. Pay attention.

This isn't him talking. Yeah, it was just like, no, that's my manager. I don't, we're not friends. And Rob was like, you're the worst person. ever met like what why do you care so much like why does marab care so much about what people in his weight class think because that's not even what he said it's just what he thinks that he doesn't like me i'm upset about that like dude that's your rival he's probably not supposed to like you look at the man how many people do you think he likes he probably likes like 12 people

on i believe he's married so that's one and that's the number of I can say his kids his managers his team and that's it I don't think he likes anybody else he doesn't seem like a guy who was a million friends he doesn't seem like a guy who has like strong emotions either yeah he's not even like it's not even that he hates you like to to feel like he just doesn't care he doesn't feel about you and that has upset you deeply and it's just like it's the same shit with the like apparent Peyton Talbot maybe said something something kind of loosely about me and that is like the you're not like what just dude what get a hug it for a person who hugs people as much as you do you would think that you would have

a better sense of self ah I love this we get some super chats so bad bro ace buggy obvious this these ESPN lists are built with rage bait in mind but alas uspin and umar ahead of armin in Imovoff, Hughes and Rufi over BSD, Tyra at 22. Oh, this is the ESPN under 30 list. Yeah, it was awesome. I honestly, maybe like the most viewed tweet I've had of the year, or I just quote tweeted it and was like, did Armin piss someone off at ESPN2? And it is, man, like the list, I'm trying to find the list right now.

I'm looking at it right now. If you guys haven't seen it, it's Toporia 1. ditch of a two van three i'm fine with both of those honestly and even van three i don't i'm not that upset about right like sure jdm four okay i accept this is where it goes off the rails michael morales five that's arman should unequivocally be here or higher armand should be above van in my armin armin should absolutely at the minimum b5 uh i'm okay with giving champions ahead of him sure but here are the others that are ahead of armin ian mitchado Gary, Usman Nirmagabadoff, Umar Nomagabatov, Natty Ice, which Natty Ice is the funniest one

because like, come on. Yeah. And Armin's, armids, number 10. Armands number 10. Aaron Blanchfield's 11, Nassardine 12. Brendan Allen. Honestly, Blanchfield 11's too high. Probably.

And I love Blanchfield. That's too high. Brennan Allen is 13 above Maricio Ruffi. John Silva. No. You know who's behind Maricio Ruffi? Then was on the knee. it's like what the fuck you doing guys who beat just finish it beat the soul out of him he's

behind his ass ignacio baha mondays is 18 bsd is 17 by the way paul hues is 16 uh zal 19 talbot 20 bonf gabriel bonfeme 21 tire 22 seems super out super low i'm gonna guess that this list was not made after 323 and even so he should be right he should have been hired he should have been higher but a hundred percent he should be higher now uh kill in south kill 23 bow nickel 24 uh jimmy suss at 25 macy barber at 26 so aggressive for jimmy sus i know uh bohyef at 27 songy dong 28 yasm dosindo 29 and coming at number 30 raoul rosa junior i don't have any right under 30 i mean i'm sure there are some names that like we're left off but like it's just the it's a bad list doing any 30 list is like you're going to have quibbles but like you're just supposed to nail the top 10 and they

unquivocally did not um but you know they got number one right hooray also somebody i think it was borisina depot who shout out borisina depot on twitter by my favorite accounts by the way one of the best accounts posted in mind was like only in mMA would you do a 30 under 30 for athletes because most athletes professional careers have ended by 30 like actually that's an incredibly valid point uh by the way achilles judy there he is still hate him especially after his ufc 323 main event scorecard i didn't oh my god what did ricky do no i don't i have to find we have to find this now i don't know how to find it it's got to be on twitter uh i mean akyllis just just put it in tell us i don't know yeah because i it's gonna tweet us and tag us would love i'm gonna i'm

I'm trying to look through New York, Rick's Twitter. While you're looking, this is addressed to me. So, boy, was Mike off the mark last week saying he had hope Armand may fight Ilya this year. I mean, it's not that I believed it. It's that I'm trying to put this out into the universe so that it still happens. And I'm not ruling it out either, my friends. Still not ruling it out. Even though Dana says what he says, Dana lies a lot.

Armand Dan Hooker are supposed to be a number one contender fight Dana likes to say things and then the opposite happens because I'm telling you right now folks if Ilya called Hunter Campbell right now and said I want to fight in Miami in April I'm fighting

the UFC is not going to say well that won't be this year though that won't be this year oh no I what did I said? I don't know he's got three I don't know he's got three weeks per this it says fight this year which is over in two

weeks i never i never said i was getting title shot this year um or maybe i did at some point because that's the rifle fight that should have been made but ilia wasn't fighting anyway so it didn't matter uh did we fight anything yet no okay i'm gonna guess it was on a show or something so probably okay holler if you know what it is but here's here here's the main event topic i think jed which oh man yeah people want want to know also francis did himself zero favors with that aerial interview jeez jeez louise is what i'm going to say um trying to be better with that PR this this to me was this is the worst interview i've ever seen from from a from a fighter this was one of the worst i won't say that but is well i mean from

from a fire fighter of his stature where people like want to hear from them uh this might be pound for pound the absolute worst interview I've ever seen it was so bad and it's not ariel's fault i want to make this perfectly clear ariel did everything he could to try to get something out of this man and he gave you nothing and cm punk had this like classic wrestling line in ring of honor back of the day and it was like the greatest trick the devil ever played was convince you that he didn't exist and someone tweeted on response like the greatest trick the devil played was

have Francis convinced the world that Dana isn't a liar because that's what he did like and again this whole the whole Dana situation he should have just said no comment like just say like nah I'm not going to talk about this and I know like he kind of like said that

but was still saying it in like big sentences and then Ariel like made some great points he was like look man he said that you like that he you physically attacked him and another person of a higher ilk in the UFC brass, so to speak, in the higher official rankings that you put your hands, not just on him, but on somebody else.

If somebody, to areas credit, I love this line. If someone said that about me, and it wasn't true, I would be the first to go out on camera and be like, nah, that didn't happen. But he didn't do that. Like, this was just so bad, not to mention the PFL stuff, where he just, like, put them six feet under, essentially, after they did him a favor. like there's just so much he was just so bad

it was just so awkward you wasn't that bad on the pfl stuff I didn't love that either like it's not great but it wouldn't it wasn't terrible he you know but the data stuff is atrocious the j even the jake paul stuff was bad like it just doesn't make any sense

so um I don't I can't comment on that I haven't listened to that um he was insulted that they offered him a whole bunch of money to fight jake ball after jibati did yeah he just followed up on that I'm like this still doesn't make any sense to me. But please, Jed,

wax poetically on what you heard from Francis and Ghanu on Ariel's show yesterday. I don't know why he gave the interview. I don't either. He clearly, like, didn't. Francis has never been a good interview, but, like, he didn't even seem like he wanted to talk even more so.

Like, he's usually fairly short with answers. And it was a real tough spot for Ariel because, like, Ariel's trying to drag answers out of him. And it's just like, It's terrible. PR. You have two, everybody watching that interview is going to assume that Dana White has told the truth and that you put your hands on him. And maybe you did. I don't know.

Maybe you didn't. I don't know. But the assumption is now that because you handled it so poorly. You have two options. Like the fact that in the middle of it, too, he came out and was like, what the hell is that noise? That's interesting. I don't know. there's some some worrying going on no clue what that's about um uh the fact that he like in the middle

of the line of at near the end of it was like honestly i didn't think you'd ask me about this i should have it's stupid that i didn't but i didn't i hadn't been thinking about it it's just like okay bro like what this is why you have PR professionals because you you two options it's to as soon as arrow brings up like hey respectfully i'm not going to speak about that and then it goes then there's no like pulling dragging trying to work something out of it it's just like okay moving on to a different topic and then none of this happens if you're like respectfully i'm not going to speak about that okay fine but then to engage with it on a limited basis but never refute it is so it's so bad like at the minimum you could just be like yeah that's not

true but whatever dana you know dana is dana and he you know i was try and give some leeway English is obviously not his first language it's not even a second language he's very very fluent in English but like you know there's a bit of a disconnect but like he he felt I rewatched like three times I was transcribing it and felt like he was trying to say you know that's just not true but it's not worth my time or energy to refute this but in not saying those words he just he came off like an ass like he's the outside of the fact that he does not refute it his whole energy is bad like he does not look like somebody that you want to know or support or invest in and like that's that's the point of doing interviews when you're at his stage is to continue to build your brand in a positive way it frankly would have been way better if he came out and was just like yeah put my hands on him F the boss you know

like that's that would have been better and that would have been awful but that would have been better than being like well you know people are going to say things and he's got cameras

and I don't I don't think about it and ugh like it was so bad and I was like why are you do you you made a lot of money

like you've made a lot of money how do you not have a PR professional around you to like prep you for interviews how is this not a thing like I'm going to say this and I was debating whether I was going to say it but I actually I think this is actively relevant to the optics here I'm going to try and be as dignified as possible about this

earlier this year Francis Inganu played a role in the death of a person that is just a thing that happened and it's still unclear to what extent he has not been charged legally it does not seem like he is likely to be involved and so he is not responsible for that death i i don't believe but still when that happens you're under more of a microscope when you just kind of look like an ass when talking about putting your hands on somebody it was a PR disaster like absolutely and again i don't think the pfl stuff was that bad i don't think it was great but i don't think it was that bad the dana stuff was unmitigatedly terrible i didn't love the pfo the pfo like through this man

a life raft in a lot of respects they paid him a lot of money they made him the face of pfl africa they allowed him to go box and make a whole bunch of money and he did very little to help them out outside of fighting one time he botched this whole thing and i i i the whole deal needed to happen honestly like it needed to happen uh pfl had to take this risk they had to make this move it became such a big story for them but this did not work out well for them it just didn't it put them in the headlines for a while made them very interesting for a while and then he just didn't fight and the one time he did fight it was on the heels of you know a lot of emotional stuff going on in france's life and it was great and we're like all right now they're like they got something

here and then nothing since it's just I just, I don't understand this whole process. By the way, if you guys haven't seen it, Oscar Willis, our good friend, interviewed Dana White, and here's what Dana had to say about Francis and Gano. Quote, this is after belly laughing when this question was asked

about the possibility of Francis ever coming back. Quote, there was nothing that made me happier than throwing that guy over to the fucking PFL. If we let guys go, feel bad for the fucking company that gets them we let them go for a fucking reason i don't want to be in business with guys i don't like on top of that um he then gives a quote that i am super stoked for the next round of antitrust lawsuits to get a hold of uh i don't know if that's there but we will get there

the continuation of that quote is uh we let him go for effing reason i don't have to let anybody go I don't want to be in business with guys I don't like and guys I don't think are good guys Well, if you don't have to let anybody go Let me tell you, the antitrust lawyers They're going to pull that quote Sure are. That's Wow.

That's not a quote to get for this, but okay. Later in the interview, I believe because it would make sense based on the context Data White said, there's no bad blood with Armin Sarukin. Quote, you know what I didn't do? We haven't cut them. We're not sideways with him.

We don't dislike him. So apparently, they have no issue with Arvind Sarukian, but that just doesn't seem to be true. Otherwise, he'd be in a better spot right now. So, yes, the saga continues. I assume we'll see Francis on TMZ because that's what his... His team just keeps throwing him on TMZ, and we get, like, nothing out of him.

And then when he does, like, an actual interview with someone who will ask him actual questions, he can't do it. What did he expect? what does his team expect when he went on ariel's show that aerial wasn't going to ask him about dana's comments saying that he physically of course he was going to ask about that he's going to ask about everything god i know all of his answers weren't none of his answers were good is the problem like he could have again i don't think the pfl stuff was that bad the pfl stuff read to me

like he's just frustrated with pfl um because and frankly it's his fault like let's be super clear he's frustrated that they can't give him good fights and it's like buddy you knew that when you signed with them they can't do that you signed with them so you can box so it's that's just what you did and that's also again just say honest just say it but you know he he did say like oh uh you know um i'm trying to fight next year for pfl and then my contract will run up and i'd love to fight the white house that thing did get a little aggregated clipped was like i'd love to fight john at the white house but even he was like that's probably not going to happen yeah um you know and i'm happy to re-sign with the pfl if they can offer me fights okay like what do you mean by that that like that's

just the question of which i wish ariel had asked it's like what do you mean by if they can offer you something because we know what they can offer their cards are on the table they are a face-up promotion they got vadeem nymkov does that the fight you're okay with because if it's not then where where you go it because that's it like that's the corner like that's what a monopolized market it looks like you bailed on the monopoly which i think was a great call but your other option is here or what we did a town hall with jonathan coachman not that long ago we talked about this exact thing and you remember what coach said he said we're not just throwing coach out there for we're not throwing frances out there for squash matches he's got to do dumb do big time of

them which i completely agree with just drop this dude out there and let him nuke a bunch of people like just get him out there because he's losing a lot of their fan base probably doesn't even know who Francis is because they haven't seen them the number one most important trait

in MMA is that you fight a lot yeah that's it that is by far the most significant thing you can do to benefit your career Dakota Dishava became a star because she fought a lot but who did she outside of Tila Santos she doesn't beat really like

she doesn't beat like a ranked fighter outside of Tila fight two or three times a year whoever it is It's got there, lay waste. If it's good people, that's awesome. If it's not, it doesn't matter. They need to, you just need to fight him.

He simply needs to fight. I don't, this is not a hard, I've been preaching this for like four years on this program, Mike. Like, it is the way that stars are built in this sport, bar none, no other reason, no other way. They fight a lot. That's it. You fight a lot. It is that simple and that nobody can, that they can't figure. this out is boggling my mind.

Just chuck him out there. Who gives the shit how much it costs? Like you need to get him out there. You have to spend money to make money. And if it costs you a million dollars for Francis to go out and annihilated dude in 45 seconds, who cares? Get the man out there fist fighting. Get him out there knocking

people out. Get him out there creating a promotional highlight reel for you. This dude should be out there fighting literally anybody you can find in the heavyweight division. Just let him go out there and clobber people. And then eventually he fights Vadim Nemcoff you can you can promote that as like this is his toughest challenge ever and it's up and you could make that argument you can make it so i don't understand this whole

process of oh no it's got to be a mega fight for for us to fight him or have him compete it's crazy it's all stupid um i mean i don't know if you know this uh boxers often don't fight the best dude every time and that seems to be going okay. They just signed a code and Dichiva to this multi-year contract extension and she's fighting Denise Keeleholds. You're not fighting Liz Carbush.

I didn't realize it until you just said it. Dude, they can't even promote him because they don't have a highlight reel because they don't have UFC rights to his videos so they don't have any videos of him doing things other than killing killing him in Faheda and punching a bag. It's like just let him fight some

dude so you can put a package together. Exactly. Oh, it's unbelievable. Fine. You can find a former UFC fighter to throw in there. What is Chase Sherman doing? What is he up to? He's so valuable to any of these promotions that want to put a heavyweight over.

Get him in there. I still don't understand why Francis hasn't fought Eddie Hall. I don't. It doesn't make sense to me. It's the greatest thing that could ever happen. I don't understand why, why the NFL didn't call Francis and be like, no, you should fight Jake Paul. we'd love you to do that fight Jake Paul and then fight Eddie Hall

I would just love to be I don't know what's in Francis's head I don't understand him as a person and you know he's lived a life I'll never live he's overcome vastly more than I've ever overcome and achieved much more than I probably ever will but like he had all the goodwill possible

leaving the UFC in a forever ago at this point was that 2022 Right? The gone fight was 2022. It was January of 22. So he left in 2023 then. I think that's right. That's right.

Yeah. But he had all the goodwill possible leaving it. Like we were all like, yeah. Go get paid. And then he does what he does against Tyson Fury. And he couldn't have been higher. And every step since then has been bad. Just overplaying his hand, thinking he's a bigger star than he is,

waiting endlessly, um, outside the cage issue. some you know tragedy befalling him it's been a really tough two years and the thing i say all the time i've said this about connor for years you know how you fix all these problems you know you fix all the bad PR go fight somebody just give people a reason to remember why they loved you in the first place because they didn't love you because you sat out and didn't fight people or because you talked they loved you because you concussed human beings fight somebody i just do it immediately yep it's the tiger woods it's the tiger woods experience tiger hood's one of the most hated athletes in the country at one point

and you wanted what he did he went out there and won a major and everyone's like oh he's the greatest just went out there and won a tournament that's it that's like you got go out there win go out there and compete win that people love you for yeah you aren't like that's i mean that's true outside of fighting it's really just true basically all walks of life is like the thing people love you for that's the thing that you do you don't if you are the rolling stones you don't go play the new music on tour that's just not the thing you play the hits the hits for francis are physically hitting humans get back to doing that and don't go on arrow ever again if you're not going to be better about it that was awful horrific i felt so bad like i rriel um is

incredible at interviews like he's super super good at them um and i don't always love like some of the questions thing like you know you but he's obviously exceptionally good and experienced at them and watching him flounder because he there was just there was nothing it is a dance an interview is a tango and it was there's no room to work i was like wow it is where the uc ariel really struggle that hard with somebody who wasn't actively antagonistic to him right like francis wasn't trying to be curt he just was so bad at it it was awful yeah it was just uncomfortable like that was that that's the main word that i've been seeing uh patient panda thank you do you guys agree that talbot kind of broke the point down rules by throwing a knee

just to be clear it was still awesome uh i don't know i don't know what the actual rules are i i mean i don't think that there are rules to the point down also throwing a knee's fine like he's still striking there aren't rules it's a vibe of let's bang it out and he threw a knee who cares I didn't I that never would have crossed my mind right now is the AI Gold Rush and that means everybody who builds an app a platform a piece of software a gizmo that somebody anything

everybody is trying to put AI everywhere and for two weeks in a series on the Vergecast we are talking through what that looks like we're talking to developers about what they're building and how they're building it and whether AI actually does make sense everywhere, or is just going to ruin everything in the process. That's the AI miniseries on the Vergecast, wherever you get podcasts.

This series is presented by MongoDB. 2025 was a wild year for the tech industry. AI seemed like it took over everyone's brains. It was the only thing anyone wanted to talk about. Invidia became the most valuable company in the world. We had some huge new video games. The Switch 2 launched a lot of people got it. There was just a lot going on.

And on the Vergecast, we are talking about the best, the worst, the most important, the biggest heel turns, all the stuff that happened in 2025. And making maybe a few predictions about what's going to happen next year. All that and more on the Vergecast, wherever you get podcasts. This series is presented by Jira by Atlassian. uh mike are you ever going on mhm a trivia jett and pierre was i've been on twice me and jedd played the the first round i put up a spectacular showing uh i had the record for quite some time for the most point scored until jose young showed up and ruined that uh and then i played brian campbell and i just didn't have it and he kicked my ass so so the answer is yes in fact

i'm playing somebody else from m a fighting and we're recording it today oh that's fun yes it's not jose thank thank god oh yeah nobody wants to do jose um uh i don't know if they'll ever invite me back on me and luke have a great relationship but um i'm one of the three worst ever at it i've yet to score a point so woo uh late to the party but if bahama makai have came back to the ufc who would you have him faced in 2026 i will stand by this take forever and if it ever happens I will put the right hand up immediately. I don't think Bahamukai ever comes back to the UFC.

I think he's coming back. I don't think they don't need him at all. They don't need him, but he hasn't done. He didn't do anything to piss them off actively. Sure, he did. He was awful to the employees. He's starting fights during fight week in the freaking hotel lobby with his team. That shit is not good.

These are all bad things. None of that is the, he's not on the roster because he was boring in big fights. And that's why, like, that's it. And they just didn't want to re-sign him. Like, he's, he's well-connected. He's incredibly talented. He's marketable. And he's been very apologetic, basically, since he got his hand slapped.

And he got kicked out of the UFC, not kicked out technically, but, you know, he got kicked out when he was, like, 24. He'll come back in a few years. He's going to have to walk the journey. He's going to have to sojourn for, for some time longer. But he'll come back, you know, he'll apologize a bunch. He'll offer to fight on contenders here. or whatever it takes he'll come back and you know it'll it'll be okay i'm convinced he comes back

maybe not next year 2028 at the absolute latest i bet he's back in the fold god i i don't think so i it would be it would be insane um yeah i he's coming back i'll i believe in it yeah um when he does mean it because it won't be soon who knows but like when he does he'll be in that position where he's like obviously one of the 15 best dudes in the world but he hasn't faced like high end high end because he's been out of the UFC for so long so you do like what they're doing with Amosov right like this weekend like you give him either a name or like a bottom you know into the top 15 to let him get his beak wet again you give him the hardest fight that nobody knows yeah you get i don't know who that is but

i mean it'll probably still be charles johnson you know like Charles Johnson will still be that role or whatever do it again or whatever I wouldn't mind that it'd be somebody like that no I mean if to care one back up is really like injured and bad in a couple years maybe it's Kioji you know and a couple years it might be Kioji maybe but would they even do it I don't know maybe they would but yeah it's whether he comes back and I don't think that's happening next year either uh a response to the point down How is throwing a strike break in the point down rule? Tablet is the only person other than Max

who's earned the right to do it since he just throws high volume when he did it. Yeah, again, I didn't even remotely think about it. I was like, oh, he did at least punch people as opposed to the, well, I think it's kind of funny that Porier pointed down and shot a takedown because that is, that's honestly a hilarious gimmick. It's less a hilarious gimmick when he was clearly losing the fight

and kind of needed to actually punch Max to hoe people the miracle off. but like yeah the people who have pointed down and then not gone ham those are you don't do it you I feel my belief

and you know Mac should weigh in as the progenitor of this he really should be the guy who kind of gets say over all of it but my belief is that there's only one rule to the point down there's only one and that is

everybody gets one and when you do it if you don't back it up you never get to do it again that's it you point down you stand your foot right where you point and you start swinging as hard as you can and the you don't and that can be kicks and knees and elbows but it's swinging something and as soon as you do it and don't you never get to do it again coswell kramer nobody hated tiger woods that is yeah i i responded in chat i was like that's

it's so not true that's just that man was a pariah you know how i know that's not true he lost a billion dollars worth of sponsorships yeah he wasn't he wasn't in a good spot no he was he was a fine spot still tiger but you know relative to what he was yeah it was it was not very good that all the stories came out it was it was not good um that da da what else you got i mean josh vane is like so much younger than every ufc champion i'm just looking at the list right now he's so young i see the third youngest U.S.C. champion of all time now?

Yeah. Something like that. It's crazy. So Mike was the bald silhouette on the poll. Did I spoil it? I mean, it seems like you may have. I mean, I'm sorry.

While you're doing whatever you're doing, someone at the very beginning of the day, and I don't remember who it was, but it is a topic that people some people will be upset about and I don't care asked my thoughts on the Indianapolis Colts situation and I recognize this is football

not MMA so I'll keep this relatively brief I am very sad I'm a very sad Colts fan because this season I came into it with no expectations I thought we were going to be very poor I was upset that Daniel Jones is starting over Anthony Richardson who I don't believe is good but you just kind of got to roll him out

and hope he gets good since you put a first rounder behind him but whatever we didn't and then suddenly we were the best offense in the sport for like eight weeks and electric like we very easily could have been undefeated through eight weeks and I was so excited and I drafted Anthony uh Jonathan Taylor not Anthony Taylor not on my fantasy team and it was the best I was having a wonderful time and then Indiana Jones broke his leg and he got a lot worse and we started playing good teams instead of exclusively bad teams and now somehow Mike I think I think honestly that we are going to start Philip King Rivers at quarterback on Sunday against the number one defense

the Seattle Seahawks Philip Rivers who Mike I don't know if you know this is grandfather Philip Rivers is older than our head coach Philip Rivers has not played football in like in five years because he was a semi-finalist for the Hall of Fame this year. But now that gets reset because he signed a contract with us. Credit to Philip Rivers, unlike Francis Ngano, he's a media professional. And so he was like kind of charming and fun at the presser. And he's just like when they're asking questions about this ludicrous situation, he's like, buddy, I'm going to hand the ball off a lot.

Like I'm here to do. Like, yeah, I get it. it's it's a funny thing but this is now a franchise that in the past three years hired jeff saturday off an NFL analyst desk who had never coached football in his life to be our head coach and has now bought philip rivers out of the hall of fame consideration to quarterback us you must you must be feeling great about that mike you're going to hate this the statement but i think that i with those two pieces of information i've made a

compelling case that Peyton Manning is actually the goat football player because he managed to win a Super Bowl with this franchise, which seems impossible when you understand the kind of nonsense we have at the top levels. That's why I'm trying to confirm something that I just saw in the chat. I'm also just frankly, I'll admit, I want to see the car crash on Sunday. Like I'm, I'm interested to watch how bad the Seahawks game is going to go. unbelievably bad for us and I I can't look away I'm I am waiting for Sunday Mike and Jed you have any favorite MMA fighting moments this year oh one jumps out to

me is my favorite and it's the Kevin Holland Danny Rodriguez that whole event was bananas so but that was definitely that what was the fight where you were desperately hoping for the over and I was hoping for the under or vice versa Benwos on the knee. That's right. Versus Kyle Perelek. Oh, that was definitely one of my favorite moments, too. The BFD.

By two seconds. The dead battle buzzer beater. It was so good. I was like, I'm going to lose by two seconds. And then it's exactly what happened. And I was very, very upset. Those are easily my two favorite watch party moments this year. Yeah.

Those are really good. I did also very much enjoy. the Janbovich-Bogden-Guskaw fight much more than I ever thought I would. Honestly, totally reasonable. I have, I mean, this is, I've loved this fantasy season. The ups and downs have been so excellent for our internal chats and stuff. I've liked that a lot. I finally got to meet Jose Young's.

I really like that. Damon is now the only person I have not met face-to-face, so. eventually we'll do that but uh it's it's been a good good quality year 2025 yeah it's it's been uh i've learned a lot this year i will say that i've had to teach myself things that i never thought i would have to learn yeah we've all we've all adopted new skills uh yeah i mean learning how to use e-cam and learning how to do social media stuff uh making graphics do all that craziness make clips uh it's been it's been quite the year so yeah hopefully uh hopefully we get another producer on sooner rather than later so philip rivers's family was the

inspiration for waldo cortez accostogen uh he's got like 12 kids or something insane um the various conspiracy theories about philip rivers is they've they've made me quite happy this week objectively all of my friends are having the most fun ever by dunking on me over this situation my group chat has been tough the past like five days uh what are the most forgotten mma fights oh shit dude i don't know that's tough uh i mean all time is incredibly hard to say young young kim versus marco polarois might be i don't have i don't have a clue what that is the first fight the first the opening fight at ufc 199 was like one of the three best fights of 2016 well so that might be i forgot it obviously so go watch it that's your homework aside for

today uh lock in not just you but everybody if you haven't seen it uh go find ufc 199 on fight pass while we still have all we still have fight pass well we still have it apparently uh and go watch that fight it is spectacular so i'm trying to to think if anything else jumps out at me is like a you know what i'll say you know what i'll say dude paul hughes us and rmaga made up one might make that list because every time we talk about fights of the year that never comes into people's minds like immediately honestly i forget that it happened this year in my head that happened last year exactly um nothing jumps out at me is like uh i mean there's like some forgotten performances that i think just sort of

lost to time for like one of the first things happen is like TJ's win over Barow was it was the exact same vibe as Cody Garbrand

over Cruz but then that's sort of just gone away because one TJ then actually established himself where I think we remember Cody's win more

because of how his career unfolded after and it's such like clear high point of a relatively low career whereas tj then went on but like that performance was out of nowhere sensational and then everyone hates tj now so it's you know eff it uh the fight i was looking at uh trying to confirm was the uh brandon moreno asu alma biaf reported matchup for ufc mexico um i mean that would make a lot of sense

What I can say is, I'm not saying it's not happening. It probably will, by all accounts, but I would say, I would say, it's a little too early to actually report it as something that's happening. But I would even put it in the like, in the work. category just yet, uh, I would put it in the being discussed category at the moment. But I'm not saying I at this point, like I think it will end up happening. Um, but I, I wouldn't even feel comfortable like reporting it on the website at the moment. Uh, because we talked about this previously, um, I'm seeing a new quote drop from Dana. And I just want to get this out there as a clarifier.

Um, Dana says, this is again from our friend. Oscar Willis, who did the interview with Dana for the Macwife. Let me be clear on something when I say the physicality. It's not like Francis came in here and threatened us or anything like that. He goes on retells the story or whatever. And it's like I started to walk out. He put his hand on my chest and said, we're not done talking. I said, oh, we're done talking.

It's not like Francis came in here and was like physical, but that's what went down. And honestly, that's sort of been my read of this from jump. Like even the way Dana initially told the story is like, yeah he touched you which is not great like you should just keep your hands to yourself always whether you're a fighter or not don't touch people unless you know they want to be touched um but like there is a substantive difference between being like hey hey don't hold up you know and making contact versus like shoving a dude and it never seemed like that and so yeah but it also makes francis like bizarre thing like you could just like you could have easily just been like yeah

I touched him like I probably shouldn't have done that I just put my hand up to be like hey let's talk about this and he blew me off and instead you left an opportunity for people to interpret it as bad and that's bad um so credit to Dana for because I think Dana clearly saw that the energy was that way and has clarified that so credit to him for clarifying that because that's better like that is a better thing to do but I just wanted to get that all out there and Francis just could have just said that, because it seemed like the time frame was a really long time ago. Yeah, he could easily just been like, oh, yeah, like, I touched him, shouldn't do it, keep your hands to yourself.

That was not my best moment, but he was trying to blow me off and I was trying to stop him. I didn't grab him by the wrist or shove him. I just, you know, I put my hand up, and that's okay. I didn't throw him through the wall. Yeah, which, I mean, what's the plan for the NBA Fighting Award show this year? Same as always. I think last year we kind of like changed things up a touch

because I don't think was Casey on the panel last year no right? Yeah it was pretty sure he was maybe it wasn't oh maybe he was yeah I think we just all we just did one big show yeah and we just like announce the winners like all doing it together

it's gonna be similar but Casey's obviously not here so a lot of the extra work will kind of like fall on my shoulders but I don't care it's gonna be really really fun we started talks about that yesterday we'll get we'll have that out in the next couple of weeks our awards probably christmas yeah we usually drop it on christmas day it's usually it's usually christmas week content so there's something around then uh and people usually like them so i would say i'll be like i have to go back and watch a bunch of fights i don't have a clue what i'm picking for most things i started going through my list like last week i know sub sub's the

only one i got that i'm like confident it's kistella von kestelle von steen I'm pretty confident. Oh, I'm glad you said that. I mean, like, there are other things that are cool, you know, but I want to give it to be so bad. I really do. Again, that's an awesome performance. You know, Machetev Moikano is impressive or whatever.

I'm pretty sure that the answer is Costello von Steenis. Yeah, good call. There was a leg scissor at like the regionals that I'm going to throw in my five because leg scissors rock, but like it's Costello von Stenis. Yeah, I agree. so yeah there's some good ones a lot of these are tough a lot of these are very tough honestly this may be the most competitive year uh i can remember i got to tell you mike um the valentina shivchenko fighter of the year campaign it's it's gaining momentum you aren't

kidding because that was one of the things that that was one of the things that i've learned uh throughout this process over the past few days of like really digging in on paper on paper if you blind put resumes for the year on paper and you remove that it's you know any who they are

and just said divisional numbers it is very clear who I think it is she beat the number one contender which got better that is not she didn't beat Manon Furo and then Manon lost her next fight right

I think she's like very slightly but she beat Manon and then Manon in the next fight after killed a woman on a five-fight win streak. She slaughtered Yazdivisius. So that win only looks better because if Manon had then lost to Jasmine, okay, like, all right, maybe that lose a little. So she beat the number one with the bullet contender.

And then she beat the champion of the weight class below who came up in a fight that was billed as the goat fight. And I mean, hung 50 on her. That was a 50-45 on her ass. on paper those are the two best wins by a pretty good margin Islam beating jack in the way he did is great if he had beat armin no contest but basically it's this it is that is the inverse of that

if he had fought armin is what valentina kind of did he didn't it's not his fault but moikano is just not the same as beating manaw you know marab just lost you could still give it if you still want to even throw a vote for Maram, but what he did before, even with the loss. I don't frankly hate that. Like, it's reasonable.

Van had a tremendous year, but you're going to knock him because of the way he won the title. We, again, it's legitimate. It feels weird to be like, fighter of the year. He, that's how he won the belt is, it's right there, man. I like, I, I think she's my pick. As of this second, she will be my pick. Mm-hmm. It's tough.

And again, like, she is just standing out in a, in a contest with a whole bunch of other fighters that are like, oh, if this happened, it would be them. Like, if Josh Van, like, straight up beat pants, it's him. Like, I think it's him. If he went out there, just be him convincingly, he's a fighter of the year. If that fight hadn't ended that way, or even if it had ended that way later, like, after a couple of rounds and Van was, was clearly little. it because it ended that way so quickly it you can't you you don't knock him for but you can't give him full credit for it if that makes sense I think and then yeah he would absolutely be fired of the year if that happened yeah I think the top I think the top five are very clear

I think they're very clear valentine and then you just got to figure out the order I mean I think one and two is valentine and Islam and you're just going to have to pick I think van should probably still be on that list I think vans in the top five still certainly the rest of his year was still very very good too yeah and he did win the belt um so he will absolutely be my top five i don't know if he'll be he might be three it's possible he's three does barra make your top five maybe uh i have to look at like other years but like he would have undeniably been top five prior to thing and so it's like the college football it this is the college football playoffs mike do we penalize alabama for playing in the c c championship game and

losing well you know you penalize him a little bit but i don't know i think he probably still makes the five because those three wins are still as good as as any other wins this year and he lost to yon but like he was trying he dared to be great so he's probably in my five yeah so i'm torn it's it's between him and yon for that spot in the top five is yon is like i yeah i mean is marcus biggie but it's still a win i mean the the marab win is so good that it really elevates eights yeah the marcus beguyen wins fine totally fine win like like yon beating marcus begui is probably yeah yeah honestly that's probably my five who's your fifth wca yeah i'm that's the thing if i'm going to knock somebody for losing i'm i'm not going to knock marab for losing to

piotr yon in a title fight in his fourth of the year i'm going to knock wca for losing to surque like i i think think morab pretty clearly should be ahead of waldo catezicosta i don't know um but i like i haven't done the done the deep dive reflexively that is my five yan van marab uh shepchenko islam yep wca is is honorable mention at i mean i manchato gary's an honorable mention certainly it's two wins really really good wins this year the protest protest and all are very good wins yeah um trying to think who else uh put a good resume down this year um because like most of the other like champs and really high end and mackenzie durn probably deserved some consideration she got two this year and won the belt you know won the belt

He won the belt. He had a great year. I wish he fought RDR. Only twice, right? Yes. Brett and Allen while he was like really injured

and then killed Roman. Still a good year though. If he had fought, if he had fought RDR, he would have been in the top five because he would have absolutely ruined RDR. Oh yeah. If he had fought,

he would absolutely been in top five with three really good wins. Yeah. He would be fighting. He would be the unquestionable Humza-Chemiah fight heading into 2026, even over Yimabov. He would be the unquestionable

number one guy we would be on the show talking about how excited we are for homzab versus fluffy if he'd end up fighting rdr now he's gonna go fight john strickland and we'll see what happens there i think he's still gonna be john but he won't look as good doing it as he did no it's pretty hard to get r john strickland um Steve Garcia had a great year that no one will remember because Steve Garcia is destined to not be remembered um like it's just unfortunate like he had a terrific year two really good wins no murphy how many wins to lorone murphy have this year did he just have the one or do you have another one was the

josh i'm at fight this year too i'm looking that up right now oh that was in april really good year for lorone as well uses a law had a pretty decent year uses a lot a good year um i i don't want to say this but i'm i think i'm going to say it and i don't care for it um um Amon Zahabhi had a good year. He's not good, but he had a good year. He's not a good fighter, but he had a good year, obviously. Tyra had a good year? Yeah, the park is on it's just thing.

I mean, it's a great win here, but. If you're not fighting for belts, you need three good wins, right? Like, if you're fighting for belts, it can be two. If you're not fighting for belts, you need three good wins. And not a lot of people have put that up this year, frankly. The other question, the other question I have is, is this the year we bring back breakthrough fighter of the year? I have been literally lobbying that every year since we went to Rookie of the Year because

I think Rookie of the Year is both nebulous and silly. And it is my fault. We got rid of Breakthrough Fighter of the Year. And I acknowledge this because I was like, Kamar Usman deserves to be breakthrough Fighter of year because I honestly believed he did but that made everyone be like this is stupid and we'll do rookie which I also think is stupid because there's not like one it's just dumb it's just dumb to do because also rookie of the year is even more difficult to like gauge in ways that are like meritorious which like okay well if you know not that I'm saying he would

deserve it but by singer Sersakai have like if he debuts in october he can't really be rookie of the year even if because that was the raoul rosa thing he had like one fight and so it's like he can't be rookie of the year but pretty clearly he's like the guy people are the most into right now that's new so i think we should do breakthrough fighter and maybe just clarify the rules about like what constitutes breakthrough yeah the last breakthrough fighter of the year was humza at shama if yeah um and that made sense and people were fucking pissed about that they were so upset And that's why we... What was the other year?

What was the other person that year? Everybody thought it should have been Kevin Holland. Oh, yeah. Man, who... History made us all right. I'm like almost certain that I was driving the Homs out train there. And we were... History was super correct for us.

Yeah. Michael Brown has had a really good year. Yeah. Also, just to throw that out there. That's a great year. It was two wins, right? Two wins, but they're both first round performance knockout. maybe fight for a title wins

like of the two win fighters this year he had the best one yeah but it's gonna be fun this is yeah normally we have normally it's no brainers and we don't have that this year

yeah now that like once Vegas is done this week and we're not doing that then I can then I'll just dive in and sort of figure it out but uh I gotta get the violence teams together got to do that um Michael Morales is

these are violence he's the first team violence. Welterweight guys, certainly. But yeah, I love this time of year. I love,

I love to debate and, and think about silly, semi-meaningless things. Yeah, we have to, uh, yeah, it's nice to reflect on things.

That's great to reflect. We got a lot of time to reflect. Uh, this is an interesting question. Speaking of awards, 20, 25 weight class of the year has to be welterweight, right?

Uh, yeah, I think that's, I mean, middle weight was, was spicy for the early part. Welterweight got spicy at the end. at the end.

It's between those two for weight class of the year, right? Like, I mean, the first like four months every main event was a middleweight fight, basically. I mean, there's a lot happened to middleweight, but Walterweight really came alive

down the stretch. I actually think I might even favor middle weight for the whole year long. But right now, with Welterweight is the hotness right now. I think middleweight will age better than Welterweight because if they go ahead

to do Islam versus, Zusman, then all the work done this year will just, it'll just be ruined. We know we're getting, at least in middleweight, like, at the moment, we're like the dude who deserve, the dude that is currently competing in that weight class, that is the number one contender is probably getting a title shot. Like that's incredibly likely. Though Hansout like kind of no sold it, which was. Yeah.

Because if Fluffy goes out there and just murk Sean Strickland in February, it doesn't look like Hamzat's going to fight until like the middle. of 2026. Mike. Oh, we're such idiots. What? We missed a clear and obvious contender for fighter of the year.

Oh. Volta Walker, baby. That's a great pick. Three heel hooks? Four in a row, but three this year? I almost want to put him as submission of the year for all of the heel hooks combined. I actually,

that's a legitimate, I think you can legitimately do that. I think I'm going to. I wouldn't put him in, I won't give him a year. Costello is going to. to get it for me but i'll probably have him in my ranking for that because like it's insane it's an insane thing i'll probably have him because i think like right the second rough draft sean

brady submitting leon edwards is my number five but if i could do walter walter all three heel hooks as number five like i think that's that's fine i mean i'll honestly give him higher than number five for that um it's insane i have costello fluffy john sylva oh the john silver one's really good i forgot that that's a really good one yeah john like castello's the only is the only award that i'm i'm 100% confident is the answer every other i'm like i don't know it could be anything well done uh but yeah walter walker good great shout chat because he's certainly he's almost i mean i guess i don't know it'll depend he might be the heavyweight violence member, but it might be Waldo Costa.

It's got to be WCA. I don't know, three heel hooks in one years, a lot of heel hooks. Yeah, but Walter just showing up nuking people flying across the world on three days notice. It has, but he also lost kind of a stinker to Sergei. That's not very violent. Three hill hooks is super violent. I mean, that's sick, had a sick wife, premature child in the hospital while he was like across the world. That has no bearing on your sympathy plays no role in the all violence team.

I yeah okay the jordan brein all violence team will cares not for what happens in your life I care of the violence that you yield in the cage uh used to solal should probably get some sub votes too for the josh emet one i mean you just wrecked them so oh scott mccrade i love you but i don't think uh carlie judice gets to be breakout fighter of the year but she's coming she's coming and they gave her such a good fight. I know she's coming as the best.

I'm keeping all my fantasy team is the best. She's fighting Giuliana Miller and I think the UFC is they're doing the thing here. I think this is an excellent matchmaking for I think what the UFC is trying to accomplish. So yeah, good try.

Carly Judy's baby, let's go. Dave's UFC should trade fight pass for Dakota. UFC to get to gets Dakota. Fans get fight pass in the PFL app. That is incredible. That's an incredible. idea, Dave.

That's one of like seven best comments that's ever been made on one of those shows. That's such a good. Dude, then they'd get a Francis library too. They could promote Francis. That's an A plus comment, brother. Wow. Even Lazy bed's going to love that too.

That's an A plus comment, brother. Golly, that was incredible. I mean, it would have been a great way to end the show, but. I mean, I'll say honestly, I don't know why we'll let lazy have a day and we'll go we'll give him this uh who's someone unsung who has played an integral part of the m a fighting team during these transitional times that you guys think deserve some shine uh my answer to this is always a k yeah uh i will i will say that this year mike has had more put on his plate than um anybody reasonably should have and has answered the call

quite well and is very helpful but my answer is always that a k is the most underrated member of our team 100%. And just also like, if you don't like AK, I don't like you. And I don't say, I mean, I say that about a lot of people because I'm very tribal and I, F with my people. But like in a very reasonable sense, like I understand when people don't like me, that's fine. Like I, I don't even begrudge like I get it. I'm not for everybody. That's okay. If you don't like AK, I honestly believe that there is something wrong with you as a person. love okay he's the best uh i you want to talk i bring i thank you for you said uh i'm giving it to jose only because i mean he is the grinder of grinders jesus i mean if you guys only understood what these last few months have been like for that man uh i mean half the reason that i wanted this stuff put on my plate was to help him because he's just getting he's out there just getting buried doing all this shit by himself um and i just you know i'm glad and just I get to like see his his grind a little bit a little bit uh more like in my face now

uh because I work with him on the social side as well yeah so uh Jose's the friggin man uh but AK yes 100 percent uh like Jose you see him at events you hear his voice so you know he's there AK is just like just grinding behind the scenes just doing the damn thing uh you obviously you hear him and see him on onto the next one every Sunday but dude is an absolute machine without question so so it's tough it's tough everybody everybody's doing a lot right now like doing a lot but yeah if we're talking like people who don't the low key banger of m a fighting the okay without question all right i think we're i think we're good here i think we're good i agree i mean the uh god uh what a shout the fight pass for that's that's that's

such a good thought unbelievable can we throw that in my trade package for Dakota just added on who cares they're getting rid of it what do they care I mean that should absolutely just be the trade that's such a good trade that's such a good trade spectacular uh all right we'll have a preview show tomorrow for UFC Vegas 112 then I don't know I haven't put it up I haven't said my working tomorrow I don't know I'm really bad at my job I am working oh so I literally never know when I'm working until the night before. I'm like, I should see. Well, find out who's hosting tomorrow on the preview show.

Final UFC Fight Week of the year. We'll see you next week. Good night, everybody. Love y'all. You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. Support for this show comes from Odu. Running a business is hard enough. So why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other. Introducing O-DU. It's the only business software you'll ever need.

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