MMA Fighting - BTL | Jake Paul vs. Anthony Joshua, Ilia Topuria Update, Alex Pereira's UFC White House Comments

Episode Date: December 18, 2025

The UFC has wrapped things up for 2025, and now the combat sports world turns their attention to Miami and the Jake Paul vs. Anthony Joshua heavyweight matchup in the boxing ring. With Joshua heavily favored to get the victory, what would be the result to make the event and matchmaking as successful as it can be? On an all-new edition of Between the Links, the panel discusses the Paul vs. Joshua matchup and event, Anderson Silva vs. Tyron Woodley, and other storylines ahead of Friday night's Netflix card. Additionally, topics may include Manel Kape's big knockout of Brandon Royval in the main event of UFC Vegas 113, UFC lightweight champ Ilia Topuria providing more details as to why he's taking time off from competition, Alex Pereira's latest comments on competing at the UFC White House card, Terence Crawford announcing his retirement from boxing, and much more. Join MMA Fighting's Mike Heck and Jed Meshew as they answer your questions all show long for the final live edition of the program for 2025. Follow Mike Heck: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@m_heckjr⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow Jed Meshew: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@JedKMeshew⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Subscribe:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ http://goo.gl/dYpsgH⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Check out our full video catalog: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠http://goo.gl/u8VvLi⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Visit our playlists:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ http://goo.gl/eFhsvM⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Like MMAF on Facebook: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠http://goo.gl/uhdg7Z⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow on Twitter: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠http://goo.gl/nOATUI⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Read More: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠http://www.mmafighting.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Bit Defender has got you covered. Visit bitdefender.com slash trusted to see why experts and renowned brands trust Bit Defender to stay protected. You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. Live from M.M.A. Fighting Studios, this is Between the Links. And now, your host, Mike Heck! The iconic voice, Sylvester Lynn, and Shiloh, the Wonder Dog. Welcome you to a brand new edition of Between the Links. Happy Thursday to us all. It's the final live BTL of 2025. Shiloh, thanks you for joining us.

also thank you for joining us and child's like put me down right now and that's what we're going to do so go ahead buddy there you go he's okay folks he's okay uh but thank you hope you guys are having a great week a lot going on obviously and it's going to be a good time final q and a final live show and joining me to answer all of your questions the hot take kid mr no gray area himself from at mayfighting dot com also with a very special guest Otto the wonder dog The one and only Jed Bishu Jed, how are we doing?

And up on the woof There arose such a clatter, Mike. We're very seasonal here Though Otto doesn't have the same sort of festive collar Auto also doesn't want to be here He's been sitting there waiting for us to start For a hot minute

I'm doing great Mike Our last BTL Our last live BTL of the season And I don't know stuff's happened i guess we'll talk about it we'll just chat with the peeps is really i think primarily what i'm about today yeah i think that's that's probably the way to go here on this thursday because just a bunch of like weird and wacky stuff with jake paul and anthony joshua going down and ili tipporia giving an update alex perera saying no mas to the white house

whether we believe them or not is a whole other conversation but yeah lots happening in the world of combat sports ufc is done for 2025 so we figure hey let's uh open up the old chat talk to the peeps once again and just uh just wrap things up in a good way obviously jett and i'll be back we will drop a christmas day edition of btl oh that is coming out christmas day that's fancy christmas day for your your drives your whatever travel way you're going to wherever you're going i'll in fact be driving so i'll I'll listen to us while driving on Christmas Day, so that'll be fun. That'll be on the podcast network, wherever you're found in your pods.

It is our annual promotional festivist episode where, I don't mean, we're running out of promotions to really talk about here, but we'll grade the UFC, we'll grade PFL, maybe sprinkle in some one. GFL definitely has to get mentioned here. I think, uh, oh, I think that'll be doing a great time. I can't wait for that. I can't wait for that. And, you know, Jed and I will pinpoint a promotion or two that made some waves and what they could do better, what they didn't do great.

But we'll have a good time. So one of our favorite episodes kind of just hit record and talk the good and the bad of the major promotions in the sport of mixed martial arts. I'm slightly distracted because I'm trying to figure out how much money I can move because my sports book has Anthony Joshua at minus 800. And that is the best financial investment I can make. So, like, that's, you know, it's not going to explode. And like, I'm ground floor of Bitcoin, but I'm going to get a healthy return in a matter of hours. And I am trying to figure out how much I can physically put on that on the off chance the fight is fixed. because all my like I asked my friends this morning and they were all like that's you know

we were talking about it and like how can he win and I was like he can't Jake Paul cannot win this fight the only way he can win is if the fight is fixed which doesn't really happen like it it happens some certainly but it rarely happens at like high profile boxing events and an event of this magnitude it would be the greatest fix of all time And so I'm just trying to figure out how much money I can liquidate to put on, on Anthony Joshua, because minus 800 is insane. I mean, you have some, you have some leftover sort of grace from the climb, right? You've taken some shots on some, some, some, some minus 500, some like minus 200s and such. Well, the climb died.

No, the climb's dead. Oh, we, the climb died. Well, how did it die? it didn't die last week did it no it died at 323 oh with marab the climb down oh yes yes yes and i didn't do one last week because i was like we'll stay we'll we'll push over um and so then this morning i was like let me just see maybe i'll climb with joshua by ko which like could be done but and i think there is a world where anthony joshua just lets him hang around to not be mean even though i don't think that's likely but then my book was just like oh it's minus 800 was like

let me figure out how much money i can get to get on this well that will be fun uh and we can see how it all plays out jed's reaction on watch party tomorrow for paul versus joshua jett and i will be watching the fights with all of you guys it'll be a terrific time so 8 p.m eastern we'll watch the whole main card together we'll watch sylva woodley and the two other fights that are happening besides that fight and the jake paul anthed joshua fight so yeah well we'll have great time time and yeah all right super chat right off the bat rs 40 is arm and closer to the title now with ilias stuff going on also which big fight would you book mine are fluffy hamzat or islam versus shopcott jad i would say uh you support the islam shopcott thing so islam shopcott is

the number one fight i would like to see the most in the whole of all the sport at this moment in time So if you guys are wondering what is going on here with Iliate's Pori, if you guys missed it. He dropped a social media statement earlier this week. I'm not going to read the entire thing. But here's sort of the first couple of paragraphs of the statement, which you can find. M.A.fighting.com's great website. Quote, over the past several weeks, I have made the difficult decision to temporarily step away from defending my title. This is not a decision I took lightly.

However, when circumstances arise that threaten your personal integrity, your family and your reputation, there comes a point when you must address them directly. In recent months, I've been subjected to severe and unacceptable pressure, including threats to disseminate false allegations of domestic abuse unless financial demands were met. These allegations are entirely unfounded. The truth is not a matter of opinion. It is a matter of evidence. All relevant evidence has been carefully preserved and documented, including audio recordings, written communications, witness statements, and video material.

And let's see what else he says. Kind of goes into it a little bit more. My initial decision to remain silent was made solely to protect my children who are the most important part of my life. However, I've come to understand that silence under those circumstances does not protect the truth. It also, it allows false narratives to take hold. He continues on out of respect for my children, the ongoing legal proceedings, I will not be making any further public statements. I respectfully ask that speculation be avoided and that my family's privacy be honored during the sensitive time. the truth does not require volume it requires facts thank you so we knew ilia was taking some time off

he addressed this before dana announced the interim title fight on thanksgiving now we have a little bit more of a reason as to why he's taking this time off to try to clear this thing up but so is obviously as ilia says we're not going to speculate because we don't really know anything this is ilia kind of putting out his side and we'll see how it all plays out I'm sure if it does play out in any way, it'll go very public. But in terms of what this means at 155 pounds, Jed, should Armin feel, I'm going to say feels good about this, because, you know, as a human being, I'm sure he probably feels for everybody

involved here in some way, shape, or form. But in terms of where he sits right now in terms of title hopes, does Ilya taking this time off, Ilya now explaining as to why he's taking his time off, does this put Armin in a situation where he might fight the winner of Justin Gagey versus Patty Pimbled? I mean, I guess it depends on what you consider good for Armin. I do think this makes it much more likely he fights the winner of

Justin Gagey versus Patty Pimlet. And you would generally assume that that would be for the undisputed belt that they would vacate Ilya's title at that point in time. But I don't assume anything with the UFC at this point. Like they're just going to do whatever they think is good for business and any sort of rational thought be damned. And I would also say that it's not good because what's good for us fighting Ilya like it'll be like if he wins a belt and that belt will frankly be just as valid as Ilius belt.

I mean, actually it's argued that is much more valid if Armand beats the winner of Gaci Pimlet. like that is that's at least a legitimate lightweight title whereas ilias has an asterisk in my opinion but like that's when we mentioned earlier i want islam versus shopcott and ilia versus armand those are the two book fights i would like to see the most and i think armin should want the ilia fight too like it's the one that outside of a belt will just up his profile more um And so, yeah, this might be better that he'll, he's not going to be shelved as long potentially because, like, if Ilya does return, then Armin's just sort of waiting until at the earliest, the end of 2026.

But, you know, it just the whole, do you see have really screwed the pooch at lightweight in a way that is very bothersome to me? Yeah, I hope we get Armin versus Ilya at some point. I was hoping we get the Armin Islam rematch at some point. We tried and the UFC tried. It just didn't happen. So unfortunately, we probably won't get that one. But maybe we get Armin Ilya.

Maybe we don't. I don't know. I've long stood by that I think Ilya is just going to fight like a couple more times and just be done. Because he's one of those guys. Yeah. I mean, I've been saying it for a while. I don't think he's long for this sport. He's just got so many irons in the fire and he doesn't need it in terms of like his

financial freedom. He makes tons of money doing a million other things. So yeah, we'll see what happens. And obviously, whatever happens with the story as it comes out, we'll keep you posted on MAAfighting.com. But yeah, the arm and stuff, there are some other rumors out there that I have, they're just unsubstantiated, but this might get real messy. Good. It could. Doesn't seem, if that statement comes out, then usually it means. We're in for something that. Yeah, that statement is also, again, there's entirely reading between lines.

That's like a real preemptory statement of like something's happening. So I'd rather be the first guy out of the door than be on the back foot responding to allegations that will come. So I suspect that the next six months are going to be rather messy for Ilya. And so like under that context, it does make a lot more sense to have an interim title fight in general still doesn't make sense that almond's not part of it I mean it makes sense

but like business wise but yeah this man Ilya's really just running down the Connor playbook it's impressive we will see what happens Joseph does Alex Pereer saying no go at the White House

mean that if he did go there he would likely face Ulberg and not John Jones I don't think he's fighting at the White House If he's not fighting John If we're being honest Correct my belief is that And this is all one Alex has

It was a whole story last year Earlier this year I don't remember My baby was earlier this year When Alex was like F the UFC And then two days later He was like never mind

And I didn't say any of that I got hacked But if I did get hacked I didn't mean it And it's just like And then he thought And then he admitted That he didn't get hacked

Yeah, sometimes he just gets in his feelings and tweets some stuff and the correct answer is never post You should just never post Um, but like my best read of that is Oh, they want him to fight Ulberg Before the White House card

Because they definitely don't want him to fight Oldberg At the White House card. That'd be useless and stupid. So, uh, but then that shouldn't like remove the possibility of the White House card Just go fight Collins Ulberg in March. or April and then turn around and fight in June. Yeah.

I think he's going to probably, I mean, if he's not fighting at the White House, that means he's about not fighting John. And Dana's been not that we believe everything Dana says, but Dana has been steadfast by this one. Yeah, Dana has been steadfast that John Jones will not be fighting at the White House. It's so stupid. Just have John fight Alex at the White House. This isn't hard. This is just deeply not difficult.

Honestly, like no one cares about John fighting real. people like have them fight Alex that's fine they both want it the fans will like it it's weird and special and significant it doesn't have to be for a belt or anything like I know John did you wrong and like

that sucks and but who gives a F man just have those two dudes fight at the White House those two dudes and Connor versus Chandler and then if Connor falls out because that's like 50 50 at best 50 50 you still have John

there like this is not difficult and i like when dana keeps me like we'll start matchmaking for that in february i'm like dude why like i can do this for you this i won't even charge you this is free dana this is free john versus poeton connor versus chanler put whatever the shit you want on the rest of it no one will care if you just pick people out of the crowd to fight for the undercard if those are the two at the top you have like i just said you have some insulation if coner falls through it's big spectacular donald trump will be enthusiastic that you have feted his birthday with such a magnificent event everyone will be happy like this is i don't understand it mike i genuinely don't get it there is a way to do good business and make all parties all of the fighters involved

all of the fans. I am confident the people at CBS. Everybody would like this. So just say that and do it. Because we don't care what you're doing in May. It doesn't matter. And that's on you. You brought the White House card to life.

Of course, that's going to suck up all the auction in the room. So don't save Poetan for an April pay-per-view that no one gives a shit about. We don't care. Do the thing. You didn't do the thing last year. and I don't care that you didn't book Ilya versus Islam I'm like one of five people that simply did not care about that but everybody else did and you didn't book John versus Tom just do this super super easy thing this is a layup and he is like rejecting it I do not get it could so here's what I thought this meant okay because the UFC has has has done this before at least they've tried to do this. They're doing the thing that boxing continues to try to do where itself in the nards. Yep. They're trying to do too much in order to make this fight bigger. So I think Pereira fights

over. You know what you make it bigger? You're melted now and promote it for six goddamn months. Pereira's going to fight. I think I think Pereira does fight Elberg. And here's a hot take, Jed. I think John does fight at the White House, but it's not against Pereira. who if derrick lewis beats waldo cortez accosta they do that fight you you are no i think you are dangerously close to becoming a caricature of your own self i listen i think the ufc is going to try to book john on that white house card and then try to double dip him try to get two out of them because if he fights if he fights alex he's done like that'll be it he won't fight again but if he fights a guy he probably beats

and Derek's a dangerous fight because he hits hard but John probably just tackle him and beat him John fights on the card gets a win Alex fights Oldberg probably wins that fight that just builds up something else for those two guys maybe you do it at MSG make it a big deal the UFC has tried to do this a bunch

just like well we want we want to get there but we want to take a stop along the way to try to build this so maybe it's not Derek Lewis maybe maybe i am trying to just make fetch happen in a lot of regard but i would not shock me if they just throw john in with rando heavyweight just to fight on the card and then do try to get two fights this year out of john that's kind of where i think they might be heading or he's just they just are done with john altogether and i think i think dana is just mad at john and john one John's bad at apologizing because John doesn't feel sadness and frankly I don't

this is one of like the times of like I don't care if John feels like empathy or remorse he doesn't need to he didn't technically do anything wrong he's kind of kind of crappy about stuff and it wasn't ideal but like he was looking out for himself that's on paper not like he didn't you know I'm not he didn't do a lot of the other stuff he's done that he should feel remorse for so him not feeling remorse about this. But when John's like, oh, yeah, like, I definitely need to have a talk with Dana because I wasn't my best sell.

Like, Dana White is many things. He's not a moron. Like, he knows that you aren't sorry. He, like, you, John cannot, like, he has never. It has always been one of his biggest flaws as a promotional entity, not as a person. That's a separate issue. But that he cannot sell the lie

that he tells with his eyes like his whole career when he was I'm just just happy to be here and I'm so grateful like it always felt not real and so his like his pseudo fake ass apologies about like I should have handled

this better. It's like yeah Dana doesn't Dana wants you to feel remorse more so he really just wants to hurt people who annoy him and this is the best way he can do that like that's my only read of this because it's silly to say you can't trust John

like that's that's a very silly statement that Dana has made and he's obviously the biggest guy you could put on this card so like the only logical output to me is they don't Dana is holding a personal grudge because I've seen it I've seen Dana do this I've seen him do this a lot it's very much in his character weird situation

I want like I would love to interview Dana like not even real interview I would love to just like sit in a room with Dana and like I don't it doesn't need to be a 60 minutes question type of thing but I just I just want and I just want to know for real how he's feeling about this event like for real not like I'm in front of a camera I'm trying to say the right thing here the PR Dana which is I want to know how he's feeling about this because every time he has like a certain vision for this event Trump comes out and says something ridiculous oh we're going to have nine title fights and all this stuff and you know, we're going to do this, this and this and it's got to be on this day.

No, it's now it's going to be on this day. No, it's going to be on this day. No, it's going to be this. I really want to know what he's thinking right now because, I mean, he obviously is the CEO of the company. So he has saying all of this, but it just seems like there's so many chiefs right now and not, you know what I mean? Like, there's to be people kind of like feeling like they're the ones controlling all of this. I'm curious if this is like, if he's enjoying this process or if he is just like kind of super over it right now and is just kind of like waiting for this to be over. I mean, it feels like he was super over it immediately because I don't, I mean, honestly,

my guess is that he didn't see this coming because he, they're not the ones who announced it. Remember, Donald Trump is the one who announced this. Sure did. This was not a Dana White says we're going. And then Dana quickly was like, yeah, we're going to do that. But like it would not remotely surprise me to be like, oh, Trump just said something

like he just said we're going to do this and then Dana Dana found out about that the same time everyone else did when it was on Twitter and he was like oh yeah we're doing that sure and then he realized like oh

if there's one thing that Dana White hates more than people who disagree with him or more than you know fighters who maybe don't do the best thing for his business If there's one thing Dana White hates, it's having to try.

God does he hate having to try. It's his least favorite thing in the universe. Do you remember Noce? Like, it got lost in the shuffle. But like the Noce sphere card, all of the conversation from everybody else was like, ooh, this will be cool. And if we're being on it, like that event was cool in the concept that everything else is, is the same. It is stamped and printed. And that was at least like different for being realistic.

Like that wasn't that cool in the scheme of things. Like that was a lot of like AI artwork attached around like the sphere is cool. But they didn't do unique and interesting things with the sphere. They just co-opted an existing property that can do cool stuff. But all of the stuff he said in the buildup to it. It was never happy. It was like this is going to be the most. most expensive thing we've ever done.

This is a huge pain in my ass to put together. Like we're working around the clock. He never was like, man, I'm so excited about this. It was like, we're going to win some awards. And this is taking a lot of time and effort. Because he doesn't want to do that. Like, that's not. And that's what the White House is.

It immediately became the focal point of everything. And it is admittedly a huge pain in the ass for them, right? Like outside of the logistics of it, which has to be a nightmare, certainly, is also just a nightmare because every fighter wants it and you have to be like no but Dana didn't have those conversations with fires was he care

like Dana that's a Mick Maynard Hunter you know Sean thing for him this is he he got put into a room he didn't want to be didn't know he was going to be in and now it's it's taking up time and energy and he'd rather be playing blackjack I believe this new game is Baccarat

now Baccarat is a great game I mean black chat's great game too but yeah bakra is uh it's trending in the right direction by the way jake paul weighed in at 216.4 pounds for his fight with anthonyth joshua so still waiting for a j apparently to hit the scale so uh because i think he has to be what 245 or less i don't know something something like that he did i mean that's like historically his his weight is historically in the 240s so yeah yeah i that tracks speaking of weird boxing uh which fight will age better joshua versus

Paul or Mayweather versus Tyson in April 2026. I'll tell you my pick. I'm going to go with Joshua Paul because I think that fight happens. And until how many friggin fights have Floyd, have Floyd has Floyd Mayweather announced in last two years that actually happened? Not one. Yeah. One maybe the John got.

Remember the John Gotti rematchers was get he has told us he's fighting like 17 different people. And none of them happened. I forgot that he fought John Gotti. the third which is an insane thing and then a whole brawl we live in the wildest timeline that was the most ridiculous thing i've ever watched that was the weirdest event i've ever i've ever seen it was um yeah i got i think i have to be with you it's a great point i was just sort of um if it does happen it's still it's probably is mayweather tyson because like again and i don't want to be the i don't want to be the debby downer and i try not to be in general

And I largely don't think this will be a huge problem. But I do think that the MMA fan base in general vastly overlooks the legitimate dangers of combat sports. And broadly, I mean, like casual fans super overlook it. I think MMA fans overlook it because people don't die in MMA. Like it has happened, but it is exceedingly rare. Like seven boxers die a year. And they die, mostly, like, it is primarily, one, this is a combat sport. You are taking concoastin blows to the head.

That just becomes a risk, right? That's baked into the pudding. Largely, it does happen because commissions aren't doing their job or they're not involved in the first place and people who shouldn't be fighting are in there. Like, I was genuinely concerned with the Paul Tyson fight that that was like on the table. Less so here. But still, like, this is, this is a man. who is wildly overmatched and could get genuinely hurt in there in a way that is

potentially problematic. So that's not going to age well in general is my thought. I think it's Shale Anderson 3 if it does happen. It'll just be walking around like punches. Yes. I that is likely that for for Mayweather Tyson that is likely true. I'll also say like Mayweather's probably just I mean he's physically capable of hurting Mike Tyson but like it's not like he's a spring chicken either um yeah like he and he's much smaller just on the level that's a more level fight than than what we are going to see tomorrow uh next question revership uh good afternoon 2026 name an unranked prospect that could do what joshua van did in 2025 and at least compete for a title.

I mean, that's really tough to ask for in general. I mean, I think you have to assume unranked. I get, like, to be honest to the spear of the question, we're not talking like Johnny Eblen comes over to the UFC and was unranked and then thing. Like, just like a guy who's legitimately wouldn't be ranked even if he wasn't the UFC. Um, who can make the fastest, you got to pick a weight class, right?

Because it's, it's over well, like, it's not going to be well to weight, basically. Like, that's just not in play, realistically for welterweight or lightweight. Probably middleweight's out in that regard. Featherway is possible, but I would say pretty unlikely as well. I mean, uh, bantam weight, if you've got a guy who's just on the outside could maybe, but there's also sort of a log, jam of people with a new champion there um so flyweight's like flyweight or light heavy are probably good bets in general um who's an unranked flyweight right now that might make a run here mike god um let me pull up my rankings yeah that's literally exactly what i'm about

to go look at uh is charles johnson ranked in the ufc rankings I'll let me hold on yes he is number 13 okay I like the idea that would have been a good one uh Alan Nassimento

uh no I believe he has been but he is not ranked currently um because I have Nassimento in 19 right now uh how long is Timorov sussied for at least a year

I think that's a shame um I guess I'll go I don't even I don't believe this will happen but I do like the fighter I'll go with Andre Lima the flyweight that's the guy who got bit he's on a good run he's like right outside of the rankings which is basically where van was and you know just takes a couple of opportune fights super talented I like him as a prospect in general so I guess

Andre Lima seems like a decent effort there if heavyweight wasn't since such a weird place that would be a good one but we don't know when tom's going to fight cereal heavyweight's a nightmare right now light heavyweight what about iwo i don't think that's likely but um i mean he's on right heavyweight is another spot though um but jang still jang is still ranked like jang could maybe make a run there um that's not going to happen i think the other i guess the light heavyweight is another contender shoes guy, Navajo Sterling. He has not really dazzled

inside the UFC, frankly. But he is from a good, you know, he's from city kickboxing. So that gets you a little extra juice for a push. If Carlos Sahlberg loses, right? Like if he does get a title fight and loses, then there's

nothing standing in the way other than climbing the ranks where they can put Navajo in. You can make, you know, we can make some quick work up there. That might be a real shot. yeah so it's it's it's it's a real good question i i honestly don't know you know like the first name that popped into my mind was jimmy sus but he's not going to fight shama if somehow imovov wins the belt like even that's a story uh but middleweight's just too packed

right now i i i mean the the the the middleweight choice the the legitimate middleweight call is bow nickel um like if you're picking one guy from you weight class. Bo Nichols is a guy because they already want to push him. He got back on track. It won't take long and he has a built-in beef with Jemayev or like some built-in talk there. So Bo Nicol, like, but again, like that that's what makes Josh Vans year as incredible as it is. This doesn't happen.

It's not a thing. And so like you can pick the best guy from each weight class. But like I would say Bo Nichols' chance of fighting for the middleweight belt is below 5%. you know the only other name i'd throw out it's kind of a wild card but again this division we don't know where it's going right now uh gable sieveson yeah that's i mean if i was picking a heavy weight that's the heavy weight to pick sure i i think that that's pretty unlikely um i guess the other one women's straw weight if we assume that jang is about to get the belt back which I think is a fair assumption

frankly shout out to my girl the queen of the fly weights right now McKinsey Dern I'm going to assume that Jane gets the boat pack you know she's beaten a lot of this weight class already and it's a lot of the same names

is Fatima Klein ranked yes she has to be she is ranked yeah trying to try to look at who is and isn't ranked at flyweight or not flyweight straw away sorry oh yeah there's nobody actually that's so nope charlie it's not really viable honestly i i'm going to

change my answer to bow nickel because the ufc wants to push him his next fight's going to be a ranked guy uh if he fights i think so i think so i think his next fight will be robocop you know and and then you know if homzat still has the belt there's there's a natural inclination for those two to to do dudes to fight each other. And it's just Bo Nickel. They want to push Bo Nickel. And so that's, Bo Nickel would be my pick.

I don't think it's going to happen. Like I said, less than 5% that he fights for the belt next year. But if you're making me pick a super off-the-board Dark Horse, that's mine. My other super dark horse, even though I just don't think he's going to get the reps and I don't know if he gets the push.

Yarsloff Amasov. That wouldn't be a bad one. He's not ranked. the problem is that welterweight has way too much happening but i like i like the spirit of that pick perhaps he steps in at times uh a la juan taking a shot on woodley k o plus 800 straight fade on anderson's age um personally speaking i think that's a bad decision i think you're throwing money away i think Anderson's going to smoke tyron woodley i would so we're clear tyron woodley is not some 28 year old spring chicken he's 43 and hasn't fought since getting a

obliterated by Jay Paul in the worst fight I've ever seen up until that point. And this guy was not training to fight anybody for a long time. They pulled him like off a movie set to go fight Anderson Silva, who is who was getting ready and actively preparing to fight somebody. And it's still pretty decent. So I have a better. I think Anderson wins, basically. I have two ways to frame this. First, I would like to just ask you.

I have one way to frame it, but I'd like to ask you. Do you know, uh, the year? year the year i'm not asking for the event the month the year of tyron woodley's last win in combat sports oh jesus 20 17 18 it is the dare until title defense that's the last time he won i forgot about that one it's the last time you won it's the last time he won a fight um so we're clear josh van was two years away from starting his professional career the last time tyron woodley won a professional fight josh van was like in high school yeah uh i mean he definitely was he's what 24 right now he was 17 yeah he was getting ready for like

his senior year in 20 we didn't know what covid was in 2018 What was I do? In 2018, I had, I was three years removed from law school. 2018, it was not a year where, like, much happened in my life, that I can recall. It is 20, also, I'm sorry, I actually lied. Josh Van was three years away from starting his professional career. Not two, three years. Terry Woodley hasn't won a fist fight since the first.

Donald Trump administration, or was, or were we still on? Trump was 2016. So the first Donald Trump administration. Don't bet on Tyrone Woodley. Just don't do that. The BMF title wasn't even invented yet. That's how far back. Yeah, it is.

Jorge Mazadol was not even a thing. Ben asking and Demetrius Johnson hadn't even been traded for each other yet. Shout out to Luke, Mainecar Minute in the chat. Not, he said Jed was basically. to the lawyer. I actively was an attorney. Like, I was legally capable of, of, like, doing work, attorney work. I had not lapsed my bar passage at that point. Like, it's so long ago. I'll be right back. Solo screen. Okay. Masters. One fight that's really being slept on is Arnold Allen versus John Silva. I feel too many are underrating Arnold again, yet he's incredibly good.

it's not like Arnold Allen doesn't have the tools to beat him. Let's bring Jed back. Jed, thoughts on Arnold Allen versus John Silva and the sort of ongoing thought that John's going to go up there and clobber, Iron Allen, who hasn't fought in quite some time. I love this fight. I don't think he's going to go in Clobber, Arnold Allen, but I love this fight for a couple of reasons. One, I really like both guys in it. Everybody knows John Silva's my boy.

He's been my boy. Arnold Allen has long been my boy. Like, I have, I really like Arnold Allen both as a fighter and a person, like, as a person, his personality is charming. It's a shame that his career has never got to be great because he is constantly injured. And whether he's just more prone to injury or he's just less prone to fighting while injured, I don't know. But it, his career should have been better than what it has been. And it's still been fine. You know, he's been a top 10 guy for a while.

But I think this is a perfect match in that this gets on and out on a chance. He's been gone for a long time. If he comes in and he wins, you know, it's against a guy who's got a lot of juice right now. And so he can be right back in the short list to get, you know, one win in a title fight. And this is a great rebound for Jean Silva, a guy who is super well-rounded. Probably not like, he's not nearly as dangerous as Diego Lopez, but incredibly well-rounded. fighter and a good measuring stick for, hey, has Jean Silva learned any lessons or is he still an asshole? Because I just can't stress this enough. John Silva lost to Diego

Lopez because he's an asshole. That's it. Like, he's obviously a better, whatever that means fighter than Diego Lopez. Um, but he was just being an arrogant dip shit and got killed for it. like that was that's how that fight unfolded and had did this teach him humility they're like hey this is actually isn't a game and where i'm in a fist fight maybe i should take this some level of seriously uh because if not then he'll just lose to honor allen who's very good at fist fighting um but you know if this is that sort of i comped at the time if this is that sort of just inge oh i learned my limitations on being like a bozo and now i I have to be, I don't have to turn off the bozo, but I have to be like a little measured with

it, then I think John Silver can win a belt. And if he doesn't, and he comes out and he's still slapping hands and trying to hug Arnold Allen while Arnold's just jabbing him, then, okay, well, Jean Silver might not have the mentality to, you know, be a top, top, top fighter. It's a good fight. Arnold's very tough, very difficult to finish. I just don't know how it's going to be interesting if this fight goes long

which it probably does because Arnold's so damn tough it's a good one it's a really good fight it is thoughts on Razar Gizim Salmani formerly of WWs Authors of Pain making his BKFC debut at Knucklemania

yeah good signing good siding knuckle mania is we kind of got two Knucklemania looks hype Hunt versus Romera is a dope fight agree with that this, it just seemed a little underwhelming to me, Jed.

You know what I mean? Like, you got Mike Perry on your roster. I feel like he should be a part of this in some way, shape, or form. But, you know, if you don't have Mike, at least you had Eddie Alvarez last year, and that's a very big deal. You had two very well-known commodities fighting in a main event.

And God, I love you all Romero. And I know you do, too, uh, fighting Lorenzo Hunt, who, yeah, it's fine. And, I mean, I can't tell you, I'm not all that interested in Rothwell-Arovsky at this point in Arlofsky's fighting career. I mean, I'm kind of like vaguely interested in it. Dude, Andre's on a heater right now. Don't dismiss the goat.

I mean, look, who's he beaten? Come on. Don't dismiss the goat. He's on a heater right now. He's found as a home. Just how good is Barton Boudai. Terence Hodges got cooked up in dirty boxing. Thank you very much.

And Josh Copeland, you're out of here. You're out of here. I think that was that guy's name. He's on a heater. He is three and oh since leaving the UFC. Thank you very much. That press cophers was absolutely ridiculous yesterday. I didn't watch second of it.

And I'm pretty happy I didn't. And it's a good thing you didn't because it was bad. I honestly, my goal is to never watch BKFC pressers because after the one where the girl who was fighting the women's BMF belt, I don't remember their names but the one who I can't repeat it because the video

was not monetizable if I say what she said it haunts me it like it it haunts the words that she Christine Fahetta said something to her and she it's the most out of pocket thing I've ever heard

on stage of it's like you know what I think I'm good I think I'm out on BTFC pressers uh okay bike how far do you think the paths go in the playoffs i think they'll win a game they're not going to win it and here's the thing folks i don't give a shit yeah who gives a shit i don't care this is this is a free season it's a free like it's like jake paul like literally is like oh i got no pressure this is free money for me it's house money and maybe you could say that to some extent but what the patriots have done

this year is like full on house buddy like them losing to the bills like sucked just because of they lost that game because they were killing them and then they just fell apart and the defense was awful and yeah the referees weren't great either but i'm not gonna they just gave that game away but like i wasn't even upset about it i was just like dude we're like in this spot there's we have no right to be here like we're doing so much better i was like if we win nine games that is a spectacular season for us so i mean if they went a playoff game like this is an immense victory for them and even just getting to the playoffs is way better than i expected and most other patriots fans did so i really don't care if they go out a run great if not all good a couple of the shoutouts for the

unranked to champion uh be a mosquito a couple be a mosquito shouts don't hate that your boy steve as long as he doesn't fight any grapplers uh i mean that's just not a reasonable take i love steve well i enjoy steve i wouldn't say i love him not no is pico ranked is a question uh pico's definitely not ranked no no he's not i was trying to find the clip i'm going to throw the clip into chat so you guys can see what i was talking about for bkfc since i can't say it uh yes um that shit was too much uh so only i think it's literally the only thing i've ever clipped and put as like a post anywhere because it's like i the world needs to know that this happened.

What about Atiba Gautier? No, but he can certainly be ranked. He's just not going to get that sort of a push at middleweight, even if he's nuking people. But like, yeah, I mean, mostly what you're naming are just like, good candidates for breakout fighter of 2026. Yeah. Gotee is, was a great breakout fighter.

I'm up, he didn't make my, because by the way, breaking news. We are bringing breakout or breakthrough fighter of the year back. No more rookie of the year. We're going breakthrough male, breakthrough male. On my list of things to do today is get my votes in. Yes. A lot of people want Josh Van versus Minnell Cop in Houston. I love that.

Oh, here's a take. No one can pull off what Josh Van did. He's special. I'll tell you who pulled it off. John Strickland pulled it off. Went from unranked to champion. Was he unranked? He was.

He began the year. I'm pretty sure he was unranked, wasn't he? I don't know. He'd still... He'd lost multiple fights in a row. Yeah, I kind of would have thought he'd still ranked. But yeah, I mean, like, again, Josh Van is special. I don't know how special because, again, winning the way he won the belt, it was a fluke.

Maybe he would have won it anyway. We'll never know. But it's still like what he achieved. And even how he achieved it is a fluke. Like, Josh Van doesn't... It's not just that you are special. Like, you have to be talented and good. You have to be insanely lucky, too.

Josh Van in June was the number 12 ranked flyweight. Like, but because Manel cop pulled out of a fight with Brandon Royville, and Josh Van said, yes, he got an opportunity to fight the number one dude. And then he won. And that fight was competitive and great. But, like, that fight was very close. You know, there were a lot of good breaks for him as well to get there. And so it is a perfect storm to have that sort of year.

He's not going to be my fighter of the year. I think he's in my top five. He's in my top five. I'm fairly certain. He's in my top five as well. And so, yeah, like, it's not just about being special. It's about being insanely lucky, too, because it takes luck. Absolutely.

A couple of super chats. Frank Lampert part. Did Dana really say, get your freaking hands off me? I assume this is the Francis thing. I bet he did. I suspect Dana I don't think they were in the room alone either.

It doesn't seem like Dana's you know, I don't know why they would be in the room alone. Yeah. So yeah, I would say he said that. The whole thing felt like that was probably what happened

in the first time. And then Dana came out and acknowledged like he didn't really touch me. He just touched me. But they know, there's some truth that like it's not necessarily fair or whatever,

but like you're friends, on it you're the most dangerous man on earth you your actions are interpreted in the context of who you are as a person like if mackenzie durn shoves shoves dana that's less threatening than you've been like hey man don't you can try and make it as non-threatening of a thing but if you are physically touching another person when you are six four two 60 and the baddest man on planet there's an inherent level of threat there that is not there if i were to be like dana stop there's these just aren't equivalent things and so the answer keep your hands to yourself but he wasn't actually threatening physical violence to him in like a real way yeah uh ladies

bit trish stratus is 50 i feel old remember tna yes test and albert with trish is the uh as the manager was our introduction to her well that's classy yep that was the attitude error jed that was when there were no no bets barred so to speak they were doing some weird shit out the ass it wasn't pg uh wwee back then that's for sure uh let's see mysterious m rj which fighter came into 2025 with a ton of hype and hasn't lived up to it at all um uh yeah uh yeah You know what I'm going to do, Mike? I'm going to look at are who will be champions by the end of 23-5 list. I did uniquely poorly, which I am the only person to correctly predict Islam as a welteroid champion,

but it was one of two of the 11 champs I got right. Though in my defense, I just thought they'd let Islam hold the lightweight belt, and they didn't because otherwise I would have at least gotten three. who failed to live up to the hype this year so mathematically the correct answer is Shafkat Rachmanov because five of our seven staff picked him to be Wathaway champion by the end of the year

not really his fault he got hurt but you know he didn't compete and a clear majority thought he would be champion lightweight is you picked Armand that failed but you did pick him Evluav one no

so I don't think this is true necessarily but honestly as I'm looking through and the name that immediately jumped out at me is Umar because many people just anticipated he'd win the belt and so he didn't he then rebounded with a quality win

but even that win was like it wasn't the runaway train that people thought and so I think of all the fighters he has probably lost it's either him or Tom have lost most juice this year oh Tom's a good one

I mean and again it's not really Tom's fault but like he lost a lot of juice because of that fight so I mean you could probably say Francis too in a lot of regards by the court of public opinion I mean he's been

steadily tanking his stock for four years so it's fought once in four years that's just you know he's done something else oh michael pericio has the right answer it's patchy oh great great call that that that's i don't know that there was actually like a huge amount of hype yeah it depends it depends on who you ask but he fell the most certainly yeah patchy losing two fights not surprising to be again i was never on the patchy mix is the best band of way of the world trade train ever um i didn't expect didn't expect to be this bad but yeah it's pretty yeah that's a that's a great shout man patchy's a good one um but yeah like most of the trying to think of dudes with hype who if you're considering people with hype who disappointed i think umar and tom are the

answers because they there was a ton of hype behind them both and you know tom had what happened and umar lost and then underwhelmed yeah people are are rapidly leaving the umar bandwagon i mean he did be barrio in a fun fight i again i still think he's very good i will still will pick him probably this year to be my champ at the end of the year thing but people got turned off pretty quickly on that one yeah i mean this yon winning worked great for him to some extent because i just don't think his skill set could beat marab um i would probably pick yon to beat him honestly but yon yon looked incredible it's hard to pick against the guy that good but here's the thing man it doesn't matter what umar does january 24th

it does not matter unless shot o mali loses the song you don't i mean it doesn't matter anyway he's just he's behind marab for a three match too so he's he's he's out of a pocket for a hot minute yeah oh what Tatiana Suarez oh I was I really thought she had a chance to be jang and then she lost and then had the worst fight of the year I changed my answer Tatiana swars is actually is actually the correct answer boy that couple bigawk doesn't count Ben because big on did win the belt so like he he objectively did something good he ended poorly but he won the title. So he's not in the mix.

Tatiana, I think it's Tatiana. Honestly, God, I think that's the right answer. It's a good pick. It's a good shot. How many of us were picking Tatiana to be the champ? Let me look that up.

Not I. I know that I don't think it was actually like, I think more people were on Zhang, but there were those of us in the Tatiana. I lied. It was five to two on Tatiana versus Zhang from our staff. So yeah. Uh, Tatiana is the correct answer.

Yes. Nobody got her. She lost badly and then had the worst fight of 2025. Yes. Uh, Bouchon, who do you think will be stripped first? Ilya, who won't fight due to personal reasons or Tom who can't do to eye injury. So I don't know if it's going to be like quote unquote, I don't think either will be like quote unquote stripped. I mean, it could happen.

Um, like if the Ilya thing turns out really bad. Maybe. But the UFC also likes to do the, and they did it with Yuri, where they're just like, hey, man, why don't you go ahead and like not be champion anymore, but we'll spin it in a way that makes you look like a warrior. I think Tom won't do that. I don't think Tom will vacate his title. I also don't think they'll strip him because, and this is perhaps very naive, frankly. but they already showed that they were willing to have Tom be the interim champ for two full years functionally so they can just make an interim heavyweight belt

and not care and it would be I don't know class this isn't the right word gosh maybe it would be a bad look to strip Tom for an eye injury while letting him flounder as the interim champ for 500 days because John one to fight the old guy so i think that they just won't strip tom and i don't for a second if i'm tom i'm not if they come to me like hey vacate i'm like no you can take it from me that's your prerogative but i'm not doing that uh dana threw me under the bus and you guys made me sit for two years with the promise to never fuck you i'm not doing that so uh i think ilia won't get stripped but i do think there's a very real ilia vacates

because of personal thing. Yeah. But I don't think they're stripping Tom. That'd be, uh, yeah, that'd be quite a move. It would be such bad optics. Like,

and they don't care because they have a dominance over the sport, but like, it's really bad optics to let John sit out for a year and then fight Steepay. But then Tom is out for six months, eight months. And for an eye poke that he's suffered. in a fight and be like, sorry, buddy, you got to give it up. We need Cyril Gahn versus Derek Lewis for the title.

That would be the worst optics. Duke Bad Duck, why is Ortega getting a ranked opponent? Who's he getting? It looks like he's going to fight hit onto Moikano in March in a move up to a rematch. Yeah, and it's not like Boikano is highly ranked. I mean, he was top 10, but. He is, really? In the OCS ranking, he's top 10.

Wow. Okay. I mean, it makes sense based on how they do it. He was on a good run, and then he lost to the former champ, so you don't really get knocked for that. And then they just moved BSD in front of him. He dropped like one spot, I think. But also Dustin left, so he stayed neutral. Yeah.

I mean, it's a fine fight. It doesn't disrupt anything really. That's fine. Mycana's not a title threat at the moment. neither is Ortega They fought before So there's a story there Because Brian Ortega is popular in general

And he's a person that they can go to Mexico with And if he manages to beat Tanato Morcano Then they can sacrifice him to somebody who's good at lightweight Because he doesn't have a legitimate lightweight run going on in him Yeah I mean like again merit doesn't exist But it's fine I have no issues with that booking

breaking news two hundred and forty three point four pounds for thirty four pounds on him yep according to our boots in the ground jose youngs in the room during the official weigh-ins shout out to jose doing me a solid um i would have went and covered that event if was last week but this week too much going on and just would have would not have worked but would have been interesting to be there uh kelsey did francis turn down the paul offer because he was legit worried about losing would have destroyed any career moves moving forward no i don't i think i think he turned i think he turned it down because he's stupid there's not a smart move i just think i think he turned it down because he's stupid

there's no good logical reason to turn that fight down or they lowballed him which i guess is also possible and he but like if that was the case he i feel like he would have just come out and set it um i think he stiffed his own farts and he thinks that he's like he's like like meaningful and good and thought that he is above that and he's not you can't eat legacy or whatever like he should take it jad you'll like this crispy judez will skyrocket in 2026 me booked to fight for the title in the first corner of 2027 what a take i don't think that's happening um but i think she's got a good chance to be breakout fighter next year like she's in the mix because flyweight needs somebody who's dope and that one

woman is a ball of knives so yeah she is my great hope for flyweight we'll see i i will tell you she will be on my list for breakout fighter this year she's in the mix there's honestly a lot of they're like a couple of very clear candidates and then just a whole pile of people after like the top three that are valid so i don't know what i'm going to do yeah it's a tough one because like you can consider breakout or breakthrough what's that all the awards this year as i've looked are pretty tough yeah yep um i i think i know my breakout by i think i like i know my breakout and i told it to a k and he was stunned oh okay um because it he was not on a k's initial list and i was like you left somebody off this is i believe the actual valid answer

So I think Josh Van is going to win it and should. I think that that's fair. But if you remove him, I think there's one other person who's like my clear number two. I did not vote for Josh Van number one. Interesting. Great year. But like,

I don't know. It's just, he's going to finish in the top five in fighter of the year. And he's not the breakout fighter of the year? I mean, Kevin Holland was top five in Fighter of the Year. He didn't win Breakoff Fighter of the Year either because Hamzot did. Yeah, I don't. That's, see, like to me, to me, breakout is like, okay, how did people view him at the start of the year?

And good prospect as a very good prospect as a guy who we said on every show, this guy is going to fight for a belt someday. Now, did we predict he would fight for the belt in 2025? No, but we knew, fans knew him and were like, this guy. the goods and he's going to fight for a belt my pick is a guy who people did not like and now people love and he had the year to and now and he had the year so you just picked waldo cortez costa you damn right you damn right that's that's that's it he's the breakout fighter the year for me for a moment i thought we were going to be on the same page um i think my number two is and i believe that this is that i think that this is a much better argument even than

baldo cortez coaster i'm so excited for this is a man's a hobby oh zaman's a hobby's not good he's never been good nobody's ever nobody's ever looked at him like that guy's going to fight for a belt or that got like that's the whole thing is a man's a hobby's just kind of been like a whatever and then this year he won two incredibly significant fights and is now a top eight bantam weight the top eight fighter and like one of the three best divisions in the sport it's a good uh It's a good shout. I told that an A.K. was like, you hate him. I was like, I don't hate him.

I don't. I don't have any personal feelings towards him. He's just not good. But like, you have to respect what he did. It's crazy. Love the Herb Dean appearances on shows. Lazy Bed says that he appeared on Dominic Cruz's podcast this week. And seemingly said, it's not the fighters poking eyes, but they're opponents.

pushing their eyes into fingers thoughts not making this up laugh emoji i haven't heard it i can't believe someone would say that so i'm i can though i believe the lazy bed is an honest and trustworthy source i cannot physically believe that someone would be stupid enough to say that so um i didn't even read like it we wrote something up and i didn't read about herb saying why you can't take automatic points and i'm gonna pull up i didn't read it because i was just like i bet that's stupid okay so i have my hand on your head controlling your head perfectly fine but of course you don't like that you don't want your head controlled and you start moving your head around wildly and all of a sudden you get your eye on a finger you actually put your eye on a finger because yeah you're doing the right

thing but the way you chose to do it you didn't choose to back off you started rolling your head and somehow a finger got near your eye what i'm saying is that's why we can't make things automatic that's there has to be discretion because I know you don't think that makes sense. That's really stupid. I don't know what else to say. So, like, there's a kernel of truth to that, right? Like, and I am open to the idea that, like, yes, actually points shouldn't be automatic because, like, broadly speaking, I do agree.

Like, there are the reason you take points in fights or are supposed to, they don't do it. when you're supposed to do it is to level the playing field and an advantage has been granted and the sport does not have a way to equalize like that's what penalties are for in every sport every foul that occurs is in every sport in history is accompanied by some level of punishment to make up the lost ground and it's an exact art and science but you're just doing the best you can right and in mMA there's no way to do that which is why i've also said, like, I'd be open to fouls instead of being an automatic point deduction or an automatic concession of position. So, oh, you grab the fence. All right, well, we're giving the takedown and we're restarting the fight with Fighter A and Fighter B's Guard or whatever. But, like, you, you're trying to make the offended party whole with point deductions. Not every, a point is a significant blow in an MMA fight, right? Like, I'm not

an idiot. I recognize that. To lose a point is a pretty big loss. And so not all eye pokes are created equal. You know, there's what happened to Tom. They're double eye gouged, you know, freaking three stooges styles. And there's like glancing

blows. All that being said, Mike, the reason I have lobbied aggressively for automatic point deductions is not that Herb Dean is wrong, is that Herb Dean's incompetent, and he has proven to be incompetent, and I would tell this right to his face, I will happily debate you on this topic. Herb, you are absolutely correct that there should be discretion, but in the last 10 years,

you have used that discretion to never deduct points. You are never doing it. So when in actuality, when in the efficacy of these rules that you were suggesting, you then don't do it, you have given up. You have totally surrendered the argument that we should be able to decide because you have blankedly decided never

to take the fucking point. So screw you, I would rather us live in a world where people are over penalized than not ever penalized at all because it makes you feel bad to take a point because you're a pansy. Like do your job and then we can talk about you having discretion. But you

are refusing to do your job and so you don't get the privilege of discretion. That's how this works because truly on principle he is correct. But in act like in performance, he has proven like there is a long track record of him not doing shit that proves he can't be trusted with that discretion. So I'll grant him this. Herb, I'm actually totally on board with you. We can give refs discretion. You can't have a ref again and we have to get real refs in there. But as long as you're refing, you don't get discretion because you haven't earned that shit.

Yeah. That's like, it's just not hard to do this stuff, man, because like he's right. Also, that example, though, is very stupid because that example is never the case. Like, yes, like, that's the, oh, we created an absurdist piece to argue the counterpoint. It's like, no, 99.76% of eyepokes are a fighter doing this and stab it a dude in the eye. And you don't do shit about it. So, F off with your discretion. and earn it.

Bam. When your biggest thing is, hey, we had this big rules meeting and now we're just going to enforce the rule we've already had in place. Now we're really going to do it this time. Yeah, it's just like, so ridiculous. At least he did it.

He did. He actually did it last week. And if the point is that you're going to start using the discretion that is afforded to you, then good. You're going to start doing your job. We won't have to have these conversations. But the reason,

people are suggest like it is it is a condemnation of you Herbert Dean that we are talking about these things because you are so bad at your job we have to because we have to try and find the way to make this work because the way that is on paper is not working and on paper

you're saying that the way is good but we all acknowledge that it is in in actuality bad the missing link there is that you're bad you personally as a referee are bad so get better

or we will change the rules Star Wars stuff super chat what performance surpassed Yon's all time Garbrandt with a question mark I mean that's obviously one right up there Volk Max 3

is right on the short list for best performances I've ever seen in a cage I think both of all those wins over Frankie Edgar were astonishingly perfect um balancing you know it was really good

it is also hard when you talk about this because like the truth of the matter is like it's a narrow window because we're talking about like dominance for extended period of time because usually dominance is just like oh I actually just killed

that dude you know like so that's that's equally as impressive but just in a different way of like well francis almost decapitated alster over him so you know france the it has to be a specific kind of fighter because guys like frances they're not going to have 25 minute ass beatings they're going to kill a dude um and so it is a little narrow of a window but like i mean the yon thing it's the performance of the year for sure uh don't make me do my job an actual quote from Dan Mergliata. It's pretty bad. In 2025.

It's not a great quote. Yeah, right. What a horrific year that man had. Oh, Scott McCrake correctly points out, like Connor versus Eddie. That was a literally a perfect performance. Yeah, that's a good one. You know, there are, there are always ones, but it does feel more impressive when it's a huge underdog against a longstanding champion. And not longstanding, but, you know, I've been a champ for a year and had multiple title defenses and was widely considered to be one of the best fighters in the world and it already kicked his ass once.

Like that's, it was an exceptional performance from trivia on. Silver beating Franklin another epic performance. Oh, dude, that's not even the right one, sir. I mean, yeah, that performance is great. But like, it's what? It's silver forest, baby. Oh, yeah. And Libin, too.

I mean, the, the, that was unbelievable. Yeah, but the degree of difficulty in the leaving one is just less high. Like, Forrest was a former light heavyweight champ. That's true. And he got beat so bad that he, Forrest Griffin, ran out of the cage crying and then, like, wrote about it years later in, like, it took him, like, he broke him mentally for like a while and Forrest had to come to grips with what happened. That is, honestly, that might be the best performance I've ever seen Anderson over for it. Fluffy over DeLizze was a damn good one too. It was incredibly impressive.

I mean, that was, if, if Jan didn't beat Marab in the way he did, Hernandez had the performance of the year up until that point. I mean, yeah, that is definitely up there. I mean, look, I would give Brendan Allen RDR. That's a really great performance, too, from Brennan Allen, you know? Yeah. There were, there were some good ones. No, Jan had performance of the year for sure this year.

Modern UFC had never produced draws in back-to-back events until 22. It has now happened four times. Our draw is something we need to accept if we want accurate and fair officiating slash judging. Yep. I, one of my hottest takes in the sport and I've had this take forever is I think we should have 10, 10 rounds much more frequently. I don't think draws are bad. I think people hate draws. And I'm not saying we should be shooto.

Shudo has like a million draws. And arguably they're more correct. But like that doesn't go down as well. But I think the way the rules are written, 10-10 rounds are functionally not possible. And so every draw is basically a point deduction. I would like there to be more 10-10 rounds and I would like there to be many more point deductions.

And so by definition, you're going to get more draws that way. And I think that's okay. Like, this is a stupid way to view it, I think. Maybe it's not, but if people think this is dumb, I totally get that art,

like you thinking that way. I often revert to, like, okay, this is a simulation of a fight. And like, sometimes fights are even, you know, like if you're on a school yard and two dudes are fighting, sometimes nobody wants to, the fight and they both just had a good fight or they had a bad fight but like that's i at a very

baseline when i'm trying to like filter through some of my thoughts about stuff in the sport i go back to like what is the best way for this to be a true reflection of of fighting in life and yeah some like sometimes fights are just even and that's okay shout out to uh sat the assail shout out out to the Twitch viewers. Oh, Twitch. I didn't know if we're on Twitch. Yeah, we're trying to make fetch happen on Twitch.

Uh, so I think this, I think this is honestly the first comment we've ever gotten on Twitch. Uh, I definitely commented last time we were on Twitch because I wanted to comment. Oh, okay. Is this you? Is this your? No, no, no. I didn't realize we were on dark door, but I see us now, not to be on. Yes.

And now I can't hear you because you're looking on Twitch. I'm good. okay uh is a jake win possible jed it comes from from the twitch universe um you're doing one sothia sely you're doing great english you're way better english than whatever your native languages is it jake impossible no no it is not possible um i mean it is in i don't know if already said this on the show or not um it can't happen in an honor like in in a fair fight um the only only way Jake wins tomorrow is if the fight is fixed and I don't fights. I do believe fights get fixed in boxing. It is extremely rare for high level, not high level, but high profile fights

to get fixed because fixing fights is super illegal. There are real consequences that go along with it and the juice isn't worth to squeeze. And the more eyeballs you have on something, the harder it is to do something like that. And so fight high profile fights, have been fixed in the history of boxing. It's extremely rare. I don't think the more will be fixed. But I will straight up, outside of freak injury,

so like Anthony, Joshua steps through the ropes and then has a heart attack. Knock on wood. We don't want that to happen. He's 37. I don't think it will, but knock on wood.

Or a straight up five fix, Jake Paul cannot win. them all by the way our friends of fanduil j i don't know if you saw this anything joshua down to a minus 900 favorite yep saw that at fanduel i've got minus 800 at one of my books that i am trying to get to i think draft king had them much higher um but yeah i anthony joshua should be a minus 10,000 favorite and that's not that's just like the highest they do the number to um he he can't he can't win a legitimate contest tomorrow or not jake paul can't win a legitimate contest tomorrow can't be done um i was trying to put

this in terms for my non-fighting friends and i was like i tried to use it because i don't like team sports is weirder because more there are more variables in team sports right like just you know the punter could be bad or whatever and that might screw up the whole football team or whatever it was like trying to do it in individual sports and it was like okay this would if Jake Paul wins it would be like if a moderately successful

high school tennis player beat not like the top two tennis but like Fritz like the American dude Fritz who's like number six in the world or whatever that's that's what this would be like except for if Fritz also

was three inches taller and 30 pounds heavier than the high schooler like it can't happen can't happen uh jed the current over under is two and a half rounds uh minus 145 for over under two and a half plus 110 uh over under two and a half rounds tomorrow jed i'm gonna take the under but that is i i think that's a valid line i think it's spot on i think there's a legitimate question about how engaged will Jake be? Is he going to try and fight or is he simply going to run?

And how much does Joshua want to hurt him? Because Joshua, to his credit, has said all the correct things about, like, I'm here to fight this, dude. I'm going to fight him because that's how I fight. Would it stun me if he very quickly is like, it would be, this would be like hitting a child? and like I don't I don't need to you know like there are those guys who you play pickup basketball

and you know somebody brings their 12 year old son and they just they dunk on them and they're they pack shots and they're dancing because that they can shut down a 12 year old but I think most people in a game of pickup where somebody's kid is involved they'd be like oh let's pass it to them let them feel involved without making him feel bad and so I think Anthony Joshua can absolutely get in the ring tomorrow and be like I don't need to physically like break this man um and so i think the over is very possible here in that regard but like if if a j wants to hurt him he is going to finish him very very quickly uh chef nerd bond i think it's our guy terrans uh no what is beating dj defenses tape study is too good now look at yon

i think without yon team and losing his ego that fight looks the same what fighter ego stops them from being great. John Silva? Yeah, that's good show. We don't know. Also, I'd like to clarify this. Anderson also has 11 title defenses. They just don't count one.

Because Travis Luter missed weight, but they still fought. Anderson still beat him. And that's a title defense. Like, I don't, or he could, you know, it's a title defense. So they both have 11. But I do think it's unlikely in general that anyone beats. that number because both it's insane like it's an absolutely insane accomplishment to have and the you know fighters don't really want to do that anymore um so i think that's also a blocker but yeah like

the sport is is better people are better uh the the floor of talent is better and so that it will always make it hard i won't say never never but it would not shock me if whenever my time to to depart this earth goes that's still the magic number uh i'll take a couple more that we'll get on out of here uh joseph jillian told her co-host of the fight bananas podcast david van oaken and l dawson that doctors pulled amanda dude will cold sore i mean we saw the video so uh we know there was something there uh she wasn't given her at least show money thoughts on that it's terrible it's terrible uh i don't know why anybody would be surprised by this especially you know the ufc stance on this well we just we just rebooked you uh and they did they rebooked

the fight but it's not till march so kind of shitty if like your christmas was relying on this fight you should yeah it's kind of a bummer but i'm not surprised uh when show money should never shouldn't be a thing we've talked about that plenty um if you show up to fight week you should get your paycheck that's i think that that's like um um they would never do it because that's not the point of the ali revival nonsense act but like that would at least be a selling point like oh we're actually going to mandate it that the money that's in escrow because the money is already there like they have the money it is set aside already for the fight uh you can just give that money and nothing will change um but they don't

because whatever um but yeah i think i think every fighter that takes it to fight week should get their paycheck and you know i don't care if they if they missed weight okay then you cannot book them again you can release them because they but they they showed up to fight week they should get their paycheck that has always been my stance uh slito any talk about karate combat fighters and adam kovatch coming out about not being paid seen a bunch of this. Amelia Arsorty. Yeah.

Just came out and said something. I know Luis Pena has come out and said he still hasn't been paid for his appearance. A lot of that is coming out. Should probably dig into it a little bit more. Maybe that's what I'll do at some point today. Yeah, it sucks, man. And God, man, for... It's been a horrific piece.

year for karate combat because they were i mean they were at a point where we're talking about like chucking them in the like our draft is like a promotion to use because they were like red hot for a hot second but they have just it's been a rocket ship nose dive for them this year and i'm not even talking about the the not paying fighters thing because that sucks ass if it ends up being for real uh i don't think we've heard from anybody from karate combat uh come out and say anything So hopefully they break that silence, so to speak. I don't know how much people love breaking the silence. But yeah, pretty shitty, man.

And not to mention their last card, which ended up being like a fine watch, but it didn't start until like five and a half hours after we're supposed to start. It just has not been a good year for Cruddy Combat, Jed. Your thoughts on all of this. Yeah, it's been a pretty bad year. I mean, outside of the, all of the stuff that you mentioned. You remember when, like, three weeks ago, they ran an event seven hours after they said they were going to run an event? Sure do, Jed.

I remember. A Pepperidge Farm remember. I was just going to say the same thing. I remember, I remember talking about that, and be like, oh, this is the end of the promotion. That's it. The promotion's over. Because, like, you just need one huge mistake to suddenly collapse. And then they went on.

But if you, I don't remember. remember, I don't remember if we were on air or not, so I don't, I apologize if this, I'm rehashing this. The thing you need more than literally, the, the most important thing you need to host an event is the pit or the cave ring. You have to have medical team there because you are legally required to do so. But you can still have two dudes fight each other and put a camera on even if there's not a ringside dock. What you've done is legal and you will be fined or go to jail,

but it can be done. To put on fights, you must have a place for them to fight and a video camera and two combatants. Those are four absolute necessities and they somehow just didn't have the pit. Ah, we didn't have it. And like, you didn't,

that wasn't the first thing you checked for. And like, oh, we didn't get it. And like, you just have to have it. And to not have it is really a condemnation of you as a promotional entity. And then, yeah, you're not paying fighters. And all of it's a total disaster. I can't. There are many worse things you can do this year than they've done.

But, you know, we'll see if they can write the ship and hopefully pay people because I hope. that they are paying people. If they're not paying people, then I don't want to cover them anymore. Yes. Lazy Bed said Luis Pena has said he has gotten paid. That's good. Good. Good for him.

Hopefully everybody else gets paid. I don't know why. Yeah. I hope everybody gets paid and there's some, you know, issue with sorty that happened. And this is an aberration. But yeah, it is pay your fighters because this is not hard. Pay them. That's the job.

Yeah. Their events are fine. Like, they're, they're fine. Uh, apparently covering them live is, is not fun. Uh, at least, at least they've come a long way from that. It appears, but yeah, if, luckily that car just went by super quickly, the last one. Their pacing has largely been good, which I'll give it than that. I'll tell you what, that ACBJJ, I had to watch that yesterday for coverage.

And, um, I have some issues with it, but it's not bad. Uh, the aesthetics are great. They, their venue was quite. good and their pacing was lights out they they were running people through that thing they had like 30 matches which is too many but um i was pretty impressed by ac bjj's like overall promotional hoodspa all right we'll end with this uh uh oh thank you sethy uh where is it i had it and then it went too quick uh mike a jed named three fighters who you think who will retire in

2026. Ooh. Does John Jones count? I guess John Jones. I mean, I guess he counts because he technically unretired, even if he never

fights again. I think he's retiring next year. So John Jones. Henry's already retired. I'll say... I will say Kayla Harrison. I don't think so.

She's got one fight left maybe two she got like a couple because if she loses if she loses to nunez she's going to fight amanda again and then that's going to be it maybe they do a third one but like the chivchenko fight

goes away yeah but she's gonna she's gonna hang around under the idea that maybe something can happen I don't think she's going to be in a rush to lay down the gloves right but it doesn't seem like ronda's coming back like that would be worth sticking around for

because she just slaughter or ronda um but let's make that happen but like other than that oh uh volks retiring this year i would bet a goodly sum that next year but at most we have two volk fights he has laid out an ambitious plan to defend the belt against diego defend the belt one more time against somebody and then try and go fight for the lightweight title which you know honestly like that's a good plan as far as the end of your career goes but I think Volk is done next year I'll say I think there's a really good chance

he's done in February some some people said in the chat Justin Gaichi was the next name oh well Gaichy has outright said it so that's fine yeah he's almost just cheating yeah he's I'm going to either retire if I lose to Paddy

or I'm going to beat Patty and fight Ilya and in his first camp video he like left the door open that if he beats Ilya he might stick around but even like that was even in the most like eh way it was very obvious that he is going to retire next year he's got one maybe two fights depending on how the patty fight goes i'm going to throw a few names out and you say yes or no Alex Pereira no kumar usman yes islamakchev yes illi tipporia

no john jones well you said john jones so yeah ilia may retire and the conner retire where he retires for time ilia will fight again after next year michael chandler no they're gonna have to drag his ass out of the cage i'm pretty sure but if he fights con if he has the coner fight will he retire no i'll still just want to keep fighting see you at the top walk on valentin shepchenko no i i also think that she should i think she should retire i don't think she'll ever do it jean wiley yeah let's say yeah brandon that feels surprising but yeah maybe brandon morano no no for brandon marano alexander pentosia no i don't know man i hope not i'd love to see him fight some more i think he likes it too much

yeah i think he wants to be done sooner like i don't think he's going to fight for like another several years i don't know we'll say at the end finding out what's actually wrong with his yeah arm shoulder elbow whatever the fuck it is um that is gonna be incredibly helpful uh to this decision but like if he comes back and loses again i don't know man figgy you think figgy might figgy's pretty old man Comes out here, he loses. And nobody who loses again is well out of the mix. I don't know.

I'm 50-50 on Figgy. It's not a bad one. Leon Edwards? I'm looking at the top. I mean, Chris Seibor. Leon's gone. I say no for Leon. Ooh.

I say no for Leon. Because, dude, UFC's just got to say they're done with them. And he's just going to go to PFL and they're going to pay him a whole bunch of money to fight. Maybe. Fair, fair point. wonder boy yes i i'm going to say no wonder boy because he doesn't i could be convinced yeah he doesn't need to fight he just does it for fun and like you know he's at this point he think he's pretty realistic though he's not fighting for the belt so yeah gilbert burns

he really should i'll say yes but that might be wishful thinking I see Colby Covington's name coming up a bunch. There's no way he officially announces his retirement. The thing is, he just will never officially announce his retirement. Also, I am plum shocked that he has not been banging the White House drum more. It feels like that would be a thing that Colby would just be out every week being like, I'll fight anybody at the White House. I cannot be defeated in the shadow of President Donald J. Trump, as I have his great

greatest warrior. I mean, he has me, but he's just not doing a lot of media. I, yeah, I don't. It's, it shocks me that he doesn't have a new video every other week about fighting at the White House. Did I say Charles Oliverer? Uh, you did not. I'll say no.

I think he just loves fighting too much. He's going to get retired by the sport, is my guess. I'm trying to think if there's anybody else. Does Francis and Ghanu retire from M. that's a really good one yeah probably I don't know if maybe he won't say it I think that there is

we have one Francis and Ganu fight left in the contractual obligation that he will I assume fulfilled in the spring of next year for PFL and then I wouldn't bet my life on it but I wouldn't even bet a lot of money but I think it's more likely than not that he has one MMA fight left in his career.

I'm not counting Chris Eyeboard because she's said she has one more. She has said it, so yes. Yeah. Oh, interesting one. Cody Garbrandt. That's a very good one. That might be the best one.

Yes, but he comes back. Cody Garbrandt screams to me a guy who will retire and then return a year later. Benile Derrius. it's a terrific game by the way it was a really great game no one benny but I don't know confidence in that

Edson Barbosa yes Dominic Reyes oh that's a sad one that made me sad Dominic Reyes was just no because he just got back on the winning column but I may he should be fight

And he should be fighting right here to ridder next. Yeah, I don't. I don't care for this Kyle fight. It's a terrible fight for him. He's going to lose that one too. He's probably going to lose. But the fight's like fun, but it's just like, buddy, I don't. Obviously nobody showed him my clips.

Somebody show him he's supposed to be fighting Dominic Graz. It's one of my best calls of 2025, frankly. I love that call. It's one of the best ideas I had all year. Eric Anders, I'm not counting because he's kind of said that once his contract's done, he's probably done. You could have told me he had already retired, and I would have believed you. Jan Belhovic. Again, I don't think he'll ever leave.

I think he just wants to keep fighting. So no. He should. He's 42. He's never fighting for the belt again. He can still win fights, but like, do something else, man. I don't know. But he just, he's, Janbovovich is honestly.

like a perfect fighter because he's exactly who I've always thought like if I was a professional athlete I would be like like if I was a professional athlete of any kind at any sport I would never retire if I was a pro tennis player why would I ever retire like okay I'm no longer I'm roger federer I'm not winning majors anymore okay I'm still going to play tennis all the time because I love tennis but like might as well just go play in this event I don't have to go to all of them I'll just mess around occasionally Like if I'm LeBron James

I would play basketball until I'm 60 And I wouldn't be like Oh I'm not giving you 30 minutes a night But I'll Vince Carter this shit I'll come off the bench for 10 And just jack up a couple of treats Threes run a pick and roll Like I would do that forever

So shout out to you Janbovich Who I think honestly will be fighting at 45 For the same reasons that And Jarolovsky is like i get paid pretty well and i like it it's fun it's a thing i like to do ryan hall do we get the official ryan hall retirement i hope not for a k's sake neil magney no probably not but another like there i didn't realize until we started this game that there are a lot of fighters who should consider retirement drew dover was another name a lot of people are throwing oh he's definitely not going to but he should consider

retirement for his personal well-being because of the way he fights but he won't retire jim miller no chance yeah i i just don't think we'll ever get a jim miller retirement it'll be like joe lozahn where like he just won't fight for six years i'm like i guess jim's probably retired alexa grasso no jeff neil no uh lexio leninicus yeah i think she already kind of has Nick, no. Also, in the Jan Belhovic, I'm going to do this until I physically can't walk anymore. Nick Diaz, do we get an official Nick Diaz retired? Not an official one, but he's retired.

Connor McGregor. Not an official one. Nate will probably be in the same ilk, honestly. Yeah, never going to retire officially. Yana Santos. I don't know why she'd retire. She's just over. Breakout fight of the year.

She actually didn't. And like, I want to put her on my list so bad. but like I mean she has fought for a belt you know she's been ranked for a long time her first fight she fought her cyborg good gracious I don't recall that but okay

it went the way you probably would have expected it to go uh chase last one and then we're getting out of here might have missed it earlier in the show but is it possible ilia is out an extended period of time and the UFC gives BSD or BMF winner

the shot over Armin I don't think it'll be BSD but golly man and Max Holly goes out there and just dusts up Charles Olivera do you think they'd throw Max in there before they threw Armin in there?

I think they shouldn't I don't know they might I think they shouldn't because I think that they have they have solved it well now they have three belts in the lightweight division which is weird but it's lightweight

you can kind of support as many belts as you want to put in there frankly So, like, I think this question answers what they should do. BSD fights Max for the BMF belt or Charles for the BMF belt because that's fun. And we just do, we do the fun title and then the real title. And eventually maybe you have them, you know, the champs of each fight each other. But I think they will let, Armand will fight for the belt next year. Who that's against and may win.

Those are up for debate. I do think he is fighting for the undisputed title be it against Ilya in December or be it against Gaichi or Patty in June one of those two will happen that is my guess because

what's the appetite to give Max or Charles another title fight they have a belt It will be Charles There's no way you can give it to Charles You can't No yeah you can't Well I mean

Max you could give it to Diego Lopez either and they gave them a more a tie fight so um i just i don't think there's a big appetite for you know i'm sure the fighter wants it like does the fan base care max or charles will have a belt and so that's enough like there's there's no there shouldn't be an uprising if people are like max all the way must fight for the lightweight belt just not not not not necessary yeah but max just might might just call for it he definitely he 100% will call for it but like you know you can call for a lot of things and not get it that's true all right uh we have gotten a few minutes longer i thought we would but uh it's cute it's a good time that's how they go we had a great time um so we have lots of stuff coming your way of course uh as i said our fearless travel warrior jose youngs in miami so ceremonial way-ins for paul v joshua coming up uh m a fighting will have all that stuff all the face off all the clips everything you need uh tomorrow we will have our paul x joshua watch party 8 p m eastern

we're going to watch the bane card together all four fights including the tyrant woodley anderson silver fight and the anthony joshua versus jake paul fight we will watch it all together uh have a glorious time less than a week before santa comes down the chimney uh will probably do some sort of post show reaction won't be a long one like i know i say that all the time but it truly will not be a long one because there won't be we don't have like an entire card of like mMA stuff to talk about but we will probably do some sort of reaction and that's pretty much it and then next week we will have all the award stuff will start coming out i believe the award show will drop on youtube on christmas uh we obviously will record that award show and festivis on christmas

it's going to be a great day for everybody it's a christmas miracle um so yes you'll have the btel festival festivist episode maybe we'll drop that like a day early maybe it'll be like a christmas eve special for you guys ward show dropping on the 25th as well on the 28th uh k and i we begin the two part predictions extravaganza series and december 28th live on the podcast network uh a k and i go back through our predictions from the live show earlier this year see how we did against one another, how we predicted champions at the end of the year, also what our bold predictions were for 2025. And then the following Sunday, January 4th, I believe, noon Eastern on this here YouTube channel, the 2026 predictions extravaganza goes live, AK and I. So start submitting

your questions for that. It's my favorite show of the year to do it. And it's kind of rough that We knock it out as like the first live show of the year. But that is like one of my favorites because you guys always bring up terrific questions. So, uh, thank you so much. Jed, any, any parting words for our wonderful viewers, uh, because the last time they'll be seeing us, at least on this show, uh, live on the YouTube channel for 2025, um, you know, happy holidays for those who celebrate whatever holidays you're celebrating, uh, shout out to Sath, Yassai, our coach viewer.

we love that. Twitch, we're going to blow up on Twitch in 2020. We're going, baby. We're going. Hop in for the watch party tomorrow. The fights are free. They're on Netflix. It's going to be silly and stupid.

We're going to have a good time. I love you all. It's been a tremendous year. And it's not quite over yet. But let's have some more fun while we still have it. boom david tending i don't think doing our draft live is five but that'll come in january we're not going to draft for season three until january where mike will get the last pick i got to figure out who i'm keeping that's a process that needs to start like today

i have to do my uh my year in voting today that is yes uh i have to get that done that's probably what i will do as soon as we're done here so everybody have a great rest of your Thursday. Thanks for watching. Thanks for listening. We're out of here. Ho, ho, ho. Love y'all. You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. Fox Creative. This is advertiser content brought to you by CVS. One way to understand how vaccines work is that they're kind of like practice tests for your immune system.

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