MMA Fighting - BTL | Jon Jones, Alexa Grasso Title Wins, UFC 285, Bellator 293 vs. UFC Las Vegas

Episode Date: March 9, 2023

Jon Jones is the UFC heavyweight champion after submitting Ciryl Gane in the first round in the main event of UFC 285. With the victory, as impressive as it was, is it enough for Jones to reclaim the top spot as the No. 1 fighter on the planet currently? On an all-new edition of Between the Links, the panel will recap Jones' incredible return to the octagon, his current pound-for-pound status, and a potential fight with Stipe Miocic. Additionally, topics include Alexa Grasso's massive upset win over Valentina Shevchenko to win the flyweight title, if an immediate rematch is the way to go, the low-key MVP of the pay-per-view event, Friday's Bellator 293 card — headlined by the lightweight title fight and opening round grand prix matchup between Usman Nurmagomedov and Benson Henderson — stacked up against UFC Las Vegas, headlined by Petr Yan vs. Merab Dvalishvili, and more. Host Mike Heck moderates the discussion between MMA Fighting's Jed Meshew and Eric "New York Ric" Jackman. Follow Mike Heck: @MikeHeck_JR Follow Jed Meshew: @JedKMeshew Follow Eric Jackman: @NewYorkRic Subscribe: http://goo.gl/dYpsgH Check out our full video catalog: http://goo.gl/u8VvLi Visit our playlists: http://goo.gl/eFhsvM Like MMAF on Facebook: http://goo.gl/uhdg7Z Follow on Twitter: http://goo.gl/nOATUI Read More: http://www.mmafighting.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Audible. The Vox Media Podcast Network. On M.MA Fighting Studios, this is Between the Links. And now, your host, my... All right, we're live, everybody, and on the live version,

you're not going to be able to hear it, and I'll explain why in a moment, but if you're listening on the podcast feed, the iconic voice of Esther Lynn welcomes you to a brand new edition of Between the Links. I am Mike Heck. So much to talk about this week on the program. We're coming off of a memorable UFC 285 event.

We have two brand new champions, some names emerged, a lot that happened. And then this weekend, Bellator is back with a doozy of a card. The UFC remains in Vegas outside of the apex. I think we all know why. So much happening and so much to discuss about these various things. So let us introduce the panel to help us with just that first.

Let us say hello to Mr. No Gray area, the exhibition king. The man who showed us on Saturday that combat sports, it's an emotional roller coaster ride for many reasons from No Betts Bard and Damn They Were Good, Mr. Jedmishu. How are you, buddy? I'm doing great, Mike. I'm just excited to be here to talk about. this weekend's cards uh beltor beltor on a heater so uh just thrilled and you know i love my

co-panelists today happy to be here happy to happy to have such a great opportunity to talk with y'all ah now you're stealing gimmicks right off the bad this is great and uh back on the show the social media guru of ma fighting dot com you might know him from the m m mary hour he is the man with the best theme song in MMA history. Let us say hello once again to Mr. New York, Rick. What's going on, man? How you doing, Mike? Life can't be better.

I don't think I, I think I'd be lying if I said that anything could be better. I'm doing great. I feel fantastic. If you checked in with me last week, everybody knows I was in rough shape and I bounced back and everything's beautiful. I'm happy to be here, happy to talk to you, and happy to talk to my buddy, Jed. I mean, what more could a man ask for? I mean, just incredible stuff.

So for those watching live, as you can see by the production elements here, no Casey today. He's off for a few days, well-deserved. So I have to produce this to the best of my ability. And that's nowhere near Casey's ability. So we have ourselves to show, just the bells and whistles. You'll be able to hear it on the podcast network later, but the discussion will remain the same.

So let's get into this gentleman. John Jones is the UFC heavyweight champion of the world. We live in this world. He submits zero gone. in just over two minutes. This fight really never got going, New York, Rick, but Jones took the Michael Chandler approach to life. Wasn't there for a long time, but he was there for a good time.

And he certainly had a pretty damn good time this past Saturday and became the heavyweight champion. So you got to react to this immediately on the watch party with myself and GC, but some days have passed. We're five days removed from John Jones becoming the heavyweight champion of the world. How are we feeling about it now? Yeah. I feel like John Jones, to me, there's obviously the conversation about like the fight itself, whether John, you know, exerted his will on Cyril, whether Cyril choked, is John Jones the number one pound for pound fighter? I don't think there's much debate about the goat conversation. I think that one's kind of been put to bed. But there's all these kind of permutations of the different reactions. To me, my biggest takeaway from that night was the UFC is short on stars. John Jones is still a star, and it's good to have the stars of the sport back in John Jones.

And later this year, we'll also get Connor McGregor, hopefully, knocking on wood. And yeah, John Jones still brings people to the arena, still brings people to the television sets, still is water cooler conversation. And it feels like we've been missing that for a little bit, if I'm being honest. It feels like we're kind of jumping from pay-per-view to pay-per-view. The skill level is high. The talent level is high. These guys are great guys and girls are great fighters,

but they're not quite John Jones. They're not quite that level of star. And to me, it felt like a star was reborn. And that was my biggest takeaway from the evening. And I still feel that way. Yeah, Jed. I mean, the buzz behind this card just continued to amplify

as we got close to Saturday. And then the buzz Saturday was just unbelievable. But five days after John Jones became the champion, biggest takeaways, what did you learn? did we learn a lot? Where are we at here? I learned that you shouldn't bet all of your money on one fight because MMA is crazy and anything can happen. And even the wisest men can be humbled by their hubris. That's my biggest takeaway.

If we're looking outside of my personal experiences for 285, I think I'm, not going to go main event because I still frankly don't know how to feel about it. There's just a lot at play there. If your biggest takeaway is from that, totally cool. It's certainly the marquee thing that stood out. I've had non-MMA friends reach out to me, frankly a little disappointed being like, explain to me what happened because that was really boring and not an interesting thing to watch. I had that conversation this morning, in fact.

And so I don't know because if you had just told me coming into 285, hey, John's actually going to grapple. He's not just saying it. Then I'm like, oh, he's going to kill Zero God. Because I would have said the same thing about Tiago Santos. But he didn't, for whatever reason, was like, I don't need to take down Dominic Graz or Tiago Santos. I'll do bad jabbing at them and see what happens.

So I guess we learned that he at least is intent on actually doing. things well inside the cage, which is great. But there's another side of it too where I am not trying to take away from the win. I think there is a world where in the coming years we look and are like, oh, Cyril Gahn's actually not very good. He happened to beat a bunch of strikers and stylistically he's good, but he's like Alex Bejta in that, okay, well, he didn't have to fight any of the people who can attack him. So for me, the biggest takeaway is, and generally,

Outside of my relationship to this particular bout is Alexa Grasso is for real. Like, we talked about it a lot. She was losing that fight until she won it. Okay, well, that happens a lot. You fight for 25 minutes. If you make a mistake, you lose. Just ask Kumar Usman. You don't take away from that thing.

But even before then, the fight was exceedingly competitive. And a fight that I thought would not be competitive at all. And yes, I know we've established I'm an idiot. I was far from the only person who thought that that fight would not be competitive. The general consensus was that this was one of the best matchups possible for Valentina Shubchenko. And it wasn't. She had to work excluding the fact that she got finished brutally in the fourth round. The first round, she probably lost it.

She lost on all the judges' scorecards. I think most fans gave it to her. It's competitive round. rounds two and three were equally competitive. She controlled the fight with grappling, but she wasn't getting off big shots to landing too much damage. And she wasn't even having as much success grappling

as people like me would have thought. So some of that's almost certainly, Shevchenko falling off. Some of it is time catches up to you, divisions catch up to you, and you've been on top for so long. But I think a lot of it, frankly, is that Alexa Grasso is,

this is not the same woman who got run over by Tatyano. for us she is ascended she has arrived she is for real and i can't wait for our eventual alexa grasseur in blanchefield fight and we will get more uh into alexa grasse's big win and what that all means uh in in the next topic but it's it's thursday and a lot of the topics surrounding the main event have already been discussed it's been debated for days now but there is one debate that i would like you two gentlemen to have because i had this debate with myself on saturday into the wee hours of Sunday morning

because when we do the M.A. Fighting Global Rankings, when things happen, we don't have a lot of time to put our ballots in for certain things. So the heavyweight rankings, the women's pound for pound rankings, and the men's pound for pound rankings. We had to get those things done pretty quickly so we could kind of move on with everything.

But the big debate was, is John Jones the best pound for pound fighter on the planet? The M.A. fighting global rankings panel as a whole says no, but he ended up at number three in our rankings behind Islam Makachev and Alexander Volcanovsky. He ended up at number two at heavyweight behind Francis and Ghanu, which to me is fair, but the pound for pound discussion seems to be a little bit different. So Jed, I have no idea where you were at on this. I haven't looked at other people's rankings. I have not had the chance to listen to the ranking show yet. So I don't know where you put

John Jones on this list, but I would venture to guess you were not one of the last. You were not one of the people who had him in the number one spot. So quite simply, I guess the question for you is, is John Jones the best fighter in the world right now? And if your answer is no, where did you put him? I have him the lowest in the pound for pound rankings. I do want to clarify, I do not believe best fighter and top of the pound per pound rankings are the same thing. It's not how I approach them. I'm not certain he's the best fighter. He has a very good argument for it. I would also say that Alexander Volcanovsky and his Lamakachev have very good arguments for that title as well. But we get into this pretty deeply in the pound for pound show because Q just the infuriation of everyone watching this.

I have John Jones at number seven in my pound for pound rankings. And frankly, I feel really, really good about that. Here's why this isn't a historical list or a historical ranking. and that's why he's seven for me. He has one fight over a guy that nobody has in the, yes, was a top three or top two heavyweight, but nobody has in their pound for pound lists at all, and it's one fight.

If you are putting him at the top of your list, you're either just saying he's the best fighter in the world, which I have no real issue with that. Like you can't prove that he's not. Like at this moment, the best guy running. But if you're doing it, by resume, I feel quite strongly that John's resume is not worthy of being at the top of this outside of a historical context because he hadn't fought in three years. This is one win in three

years. And before that, he had a should have lost to Dominic Reyes, almost lost to no need Tiago Santos. And then the awful fight with Anthony Smith, like those aren't those all five years ago, by the way, like that's just not it. If John beats Stipe, he's going to move up the ranking. And if he doesn't retire again, he'll continue to move up. But for me, I am, I want pound for bound to be a bit more of a reflection on, you know, what's going on at the time who is beating their contemporaries repeatedly and in a span of time. And so I have Islam and Volk at numbers one and two, as I think most everybody does,

it's particularly the ones who don't have John there. And then I've got a number of other dudes. I don't think John's resume the last five years matches up to Kamala Usman's, frankly. I just think that that's fair. Even with Usman's lost to Leon Edwards, it's not there. If this is a historical list, entirely different, very different conversation. But I'm not willing to move you to the best pound for pound fighter in the world because you were undeniably the best pound for pound fighter in the world 10 years ago.

and you have one win in the past 30 and a half years. New York, Rick, your response to what Jed had to say there about ranking number seven. And after the watch party, I think you said something similar to France and Gano is probably the best heavyweight, but John is the pound for pound best guy. So are you still sort of on there? Did I communicate that correctly? And if so, yeah, were you at here? And how do you feel about Jed putting him at number seven in his pound for pound rankings?

You did, and I want to establish a few things up front. Number one, in my analysis of pound for pound, pound for pound is not equal to the divisional rankings conversation. There is a different metric by which they are measured. Number two, disclaimer, I think the pound for pound discussion is very similar to other sports kind of MVP discussion, where it's quite frankly meaningless at this point and people have different criteria for it. and there's not ever going to be a unanimous version of it because I think pound for pound should be what it was traditionally conceived to be, which is a way to highlight people in different weight classes

other than heavyweight at the time in boxing, and an analysis of current skill set if all things remain equal. And therefore, I arrive at the conclusion that John Jones, if everything was equal, is the most well-rounded and most skilled fighter on the planet right now. and in history and I would rank him number one pound for pound probably kamar usman uh Alexander volkanowski somewhere underneath there um fortunately I don't have to submit a ranking so I don't I don't have an exact list in my head but that's my argument for it if you and and my third disclaimer is I I don't feel strongly about what pound for pound should be I know what

I believe it to be but I do feel strong that it shouldn't just be a straight resume resume conversation um that doesn't really make sense like that's what the division rankings are four pound for pound shouldn't just be okay we look at who has the best resume right now because then it becomes kind of useless and nebulous and even more confusing why does that become useless a genuine question is it is there not because why is not the is not the point and purpose of this because the by by definition the resume rankings are are are ranking people in the same division whereas they share competition they share competition in that in that division so pound for pound, they don't share competition. So your points of comparison are based on assumed or

artificial value of their skills relative to their competition, but then not really relative to each other. It becomes insignificant. It's not really an indicator of anything. I don't feel like you can place that in order. It kind of just becomes, there's 10 really good people, and that's fine for me. That's good for me if we're going to do resume conversation. If we're actually going to do the exercise of comparing skills. If we're actually going to do the exercise of ranking fighters in a pound for pound discussion, now I'm more open to it. I still think it's kind of silly, but I become more open to it.

But if we're just looking at resumes, like the divisional rankings exist for that reason, we don't really need to have a derivative list of that list. It doesn't feel necessary to me and feels kind of hard to actually do. I just disagree. I think you say going back to the, the purpose of it in a large part, yes, I think things can change and evolve. And frankly, the purpose of this really is largely just clicks now. Like it's a fun, dumb conversation. But to me, the simplest way to do it or the way that feels the most just or direct,

however you want to frame it is, all right, we have all these resumes of these people in their silos. How do we compare them to each other? And how does this work? And how do they fit into the grand tapestry of MMA. And that's why I do totally agree with you in that nobody has a definition. Like our pound for pound rankings specifically do not have criteria attached to them. You do whatever the hell you want. There's nothing that sets it apart. And that's why we have some people who have John Jones at the top.

And that's why some people still have Volkinovsky at the top. And Islamakachev, it's open to wide amounts of interpretation. It's the beauty of discussions like this. again and we didn't have like a lot of time to do it i probably if if i could do it again i think i had jones at five i think i would put him at three i would do islam volk john that's where i would have it right now that's where i have it right now i will also i got to go back here uh just because to you rick we're going to add some contention in here now sure let's let's go historically i am not going to i'm not going to buck on you about john at number one if if the guy

lighting light for you at the top pound for pound is the composite of skills. Yeah. By through what basis outside of historical are you saying John Jones is better than Alexander Volcanovsky? I have seen Alexander Volcanowski fight like five times in the last two years. And he showed arguably a more diverse and better set of skills than John ever showed at the peak of his powers. But certainly more than John showed the last three and a half.

John showed a sick, like the ability to dodge a right hand, get a body lock and finish a dude who may very well suck shit on the ground. Like, I don't, I think if that's your guiding principle, Volk should be your number one fighter. It's a closer debate, right? I think, I think Volk is in that conversation. And I think as I mentioned, and I think you also mentioned, Kamaru Usman, I think is very high on that list. I would have Kamaru above Islam. if I'm if I'm sticking to that principle. But I would disagree with your point that I think Volk at any point in his career, you know, just lapped John Jones at any point in his career.

I would argue that's not true. And I would argue that's not true today, quite frankly. I think John Jones has skills that are superior to Alexander Volcanovskis. He's certainly well-rounded, but Alexander Volkanowski, is not going to go out and do what John Jones did. And I think that matters. I think the ability to finish a fight in that way is a skill and something that should be factored into the equation.

That if John Jones wanted to, he could probably walk into a lot of these fights and be able to do that. Alexander Volcanowski, when he went up in wait, was unsuccessful. I would say that he looked good enough for me, that I would rank him still very highly pound for pound and above Islam Makachev. But when John Jones went up and wait, he smoked atop. heavy weight. So I think those things matter. And you're talking about the last three and a half

years. And again, I would cite that for me, it's not a resume thing. It's a snapshot of this moment in time. I don't care what happened in the last three and a half years. No, but by definition, you are caring about what happened 10 years ago is my argument. I'm not. Yes, we saw two minutes of fighting. We saw him take this man down and choke him out. I am not here to tell you that that wasn't a rock shit impressive performance. But you are saying I think he has the best set of skills from one performance in the last three years. Or you're saying based on the totality of it, which by definition is a resume thing. And so that's where I'm having the conflict here with you.

You're grounding it in that it's entirely based on that one performance that we saw, as opposed to, yes, there's a certain assumption of John Jones having certain skills still-ish, but it's not a resume comparison. I'm not reaching into the bag and saying because he beat those guys in that way, I'm granting, yeah, there is some ambiguity to it. I will grant you that. But it's not based on 10 years previous. It is not based on the fact that he beat Shogun Hua.

I don't care that he beat Shogun Hua. It is not because he beat Rampage Jackson. I don't care that he is based on the skills he showed in beating Shogun Hua. To an extent. Yeah, I'm assuming a certain baseline level of skills. Certainly. Yeah, I don't think we can. That feels like you're having your cake and eating it too.

Sure. And I'm perfectly, and here's the beauty of it. I actually don't give a shit. I actually don't care. Oh, I couldn't care less through the top. I couldn't care any less because I know one thing, and that's John Jones is a better fighter than Alexander Volcanovsky. That I know.

That I know. I don't care about the pound for pound discussion. I know that. I saw it. I know it. It's fine. He's a better fighter than Kamar Uzman. He's a better fighter than Alexander Volkanowski.

He's a better fighter than Islam Akachev. He's a better fighter than... He's undeniably a more accomplished. But I really don't care. I really don't care. You know what's funny? is before we went live, I was like, I have a feeling you guys are going to get after it at some point. And like, no, we agree on everything.

Rick's a smart guy. Jed's a smart guy. And 15 minutes in the show, we got a little debate going. And again, I'm kind of with both of you that it's just, it's barbershop talk. It's sit at the bar and discuss. It's nobody really cares at the end of the day. And if Kabar Usman beats Leon Edwards next Saturday, guess what? We're going to have this conversation again.

So many people care, Mike. I don't know. A lot of people care. So many people care. I'm not one of them, but a lot of people do. All right, fair enough. One last thing on this that I want to talk about because we know where John Jones is likely heading.

And I think it's very smart. He's taking the prize fighter path moving forward. He's going to fight Stepey Michich. That's probably it. Unless they can somehow, some way Francis comes back to the UFC, which seems very unlikely right now. All right, 50, 50. That's better than we were.

Francis comes back that John retires. Why? I thought you would be higher on that. So I initially was and I am pretty firmly in the camp that that, maybe it's 60, 40. I think that the most likely outcome is he comes back if I'd stay pay retires. But we talked about this also on the ranking show, which I sort of realized at the time that we were doing it. it is unlikely to me that he will particularly care to fight Curtis Blades or Sergey Pavlovich, etc. Tommy Aspinall, maybe Tom comes back, gets a big win. He can juice up a crowd

in England. Maybe that could tickle his fancy. But I think what does interest John and what, again, I don't know John, but what does interest John is legacy. And he very clearly to me, wants the conversation of goat to be nothing, to be entirely settled with him, which is a huge ask and really isn't accomplishable ever, like just in general, but insofar as it is, he's done a great job. He is where the conversation starts at this point in time.

But he beats Stepe. Do you know what that makes him? Two wins away from tying the record for heavyweight title defenses in the UFC. If he beats Steepay and then beats two other Jemokes, pick him out of a lineup, roll them out there and he does it, he now becomes the undisputed greatest light heavyweight of all time and has a very, very good argument to be the greatest UFC heavyweight of all time. And if you are the best in two divisions in the top of the sport, the pinnacle of the sport at the heaviest weight classes, there may not actually be a credible argument against him that doesn't start with that one time he filled for drugs. So there's a world where he just looks at and says, I just need two more agrees.

F it, let's do it. He's got two of those on his resume by the way the drug. So yeah, but the one doesn't count anymore, right? The two don't count anymore. There's a there's a whole. Well, no, I'm actually like totally on on board with him of like if they change the science, like, then whatever. That's all the no contest should be a thing. That's never going to happen.

But like I'm with it. It still doesn't take back that he popped at UFC 200. Then the fight fell through. Like that one will stay there because that's not the same thing. But, you know, the conversation, that's the old. If he goes and defends the belt three times, even if it's a somewhat. paper he built because he didn't get it from Francis. Is there a credible argument against him being the goat that doesn't start with that one time

he popped for drugs? I mean, I would ask, kind of a dick outside the cage. I would ask the question, is there one now? There are credible arguments now. For who?

Make the case. It's George St. Pierre. I also think that there, I am a very unique in, or I'm a bit of a lone hill. And like, Demetius Johnson and Anderson Silver should also be in the conversation. fatal to some extent. I think that there's a reasonable argument that you shouldn't take the losses after the peak of a career against somebody because if John continues to fight into his 40s, he too will lose a bunch.

Walking away at a good time shouldn't take like good for you, but that doesn't necessarily make it. But if you compare, I know you don't like this. If you compare resumes, I would say. that George St. Pierre fought tougher competition, not as recognized or as valorized as the competition John has beaten. But that run, George beat, I would say, is a more difficult test that he fought.

And so I think that there is an argument. I do think the conversation still starts with John at this point. But I think that there are credible arguments for DJ and GSP in that sort of regard. I would disagree very strongly on that element, but I would agree with the idea of Demetrius and Anderson Silva getting a little more recognition in the conversation because I agree rating people on when they're kind of falling off the cliff is not necessarily the way to do it. So I'm with you on that.

But yeah, I think it's John and I don't think there's a close second. Yeah, DJ deserves to be in everybody's conversation for this. Because I think we're going to look back, especially what you talk about. Yeah, 100%. Anderson lost a bunch and popped for drugs twice, and so he fell out of it. I was there for that run, people. I was there picking against him every time out.

And buddy, I was wrong, every friggin time out. 100%. Yeah. And I think with what you're not alone. I'm with you, buddy. You're not alone. Say we're kindling friendships here. But it's just when we look back on it because it's so hard to keep defending your title over and over again.

It's hardest thing in sport. Those guys did it. And DJ, I feel like DJ is just going to age like fine wine when we go back and look at, I've been saying it for years, Mike, for literal years on this program. Yep. But one last thing on this before we. What about Cyril gone New York, Rick? Because this is a massive moment for him and he just got run over.

Like, how do you view him after this loss in terms of his future? And where does he go from here? If you had the magic matchmaking pencil, how do we do this? Well, there's good news and bad news. The good news is I don't think Cyril Gahn, at least in my eyes, I'm only speaking for myself. I don't want to speak for everybody. In my eyes, Cyril Gahn didn't lose much because I never rated Cyril Gond that highly to begin with. I thought there was a real possibility John Jones could do this because Cyril Gond showed his deficiencies in grappling and John Jones is the greatest fighter of all time.

So the idea of like that we're parceling out and trying to do the pie chart of how much Cyril Gond choked and how much John, not literally. really how much Cheryl gone choked and John Jones kind of took it from him. It doesn't really matter to me. I really don't participate in that kind of conversation. This seemed like a potential outcome and then we saw it. Where does he go from here? He goes back to the lab and figures out how to stop takedowns and become a more well-rounded heavyweight.

If he gets somebody who's going to stand and strike with him, he's going to look pretty damn good because he's a pretty decent technical kickboxer. If he gets somebody who's going to try and take him down, God forbid he ever matches up with Curtis. Blades, it's going to be a bad night for him. So that's where he's at in his career. I don't think he's going to be at that top, top level because there are guys who are, I think, better and more skilled in areas that he has some deficiencies.

But I didn't have my stock, you know, just frankly and no disrespect intended, but I just didn't have my Cyril Gone stock very high coming into it. So I didn't have a huge takeaway. Chad, what's next for Cyril Gone? How do we do this? cue the music Mike Tommy Aspeno

Aspinno Tommy Aspeno Nah na na na na na na na na Yeah Searagon might suck I don't I think John Jones won that fight I think

That's the The takeaway from that fight Is oh John Jones Remembered that he's the best top position Well the best clinch fighter And possibly very probably Possibly I won't say probably The best top position fighter

in the history of the sport He should do that more instead of being a shitty kickboxer. And that was great. He won that fight. Cyril Gond might be really bad. We haven't really seen him on the ground. I was partially willing to write off the Inganu grappling loss as who anticipated Inganu just dumping him. Like that wasn't, that probably wasn't in the range of what they thought was going to happen in that fight.

But then you just look at his resume and you're like, oh, yeah. Tai Tui Vasa, Francis Inganu, Derek Lewis, Alexander Volkov, Jaya Zina Rosenstrike, Junio Santos is you starting to see a theme developing. Not a single one of those dudes is ever shoot and takedowns all that frequently. So, yeah, he, I compared him a bit to Alex Beheada earlier, and that might be pretty accurate. We'll see. He's still young. He has great movement and has a lot of skills.

I have concerns long term, certainly if he can't develop a grappling game and or a defensive wrestling game that matters. But also one of my major concerns coming into this fight, the reason I ultimately picked John was, even if Searle gets the fight he wants, he's one of the few dudes at heavyweight who doesn't present a real knockout threat

in every single punch because that's not the way he fights. He doesn't throw himself into punches. And that means fights will go longer and John is the more dynamic finisher. And so it's like, well, if you're going to play around with John Jones for 25 minutes, that seems like a really bad idea. So we'll see where he develops.

I think Tommy Aspinall is like the perfect matchup for him because Aspinall can strike, but also we've seen as a very active and aggressive grappler. Aspinall wants to come back. They are the top of the division. Also, Sears fought most of the other dudes, particularly the ones who aren't currently matched up against each other. So let's get Tommy back into the title conversation if he gets a win over gone. Yeah, I like that one.

You could do it in the UK. You could do it in Paris. It could be a fight-in-I-made event. Do all sorts of things to that fight. So I like that one. So we're not going to do like a round-by-round. Just a barge in between, in the English channel, just so both sides can come to it. Oh, I like that.

Could do it on a boat. It could do it anywhere. It's a boat. Yes. So we're not going to do like a round-by-round point thing because I don't have the bells and whistles. So pride rules, my friends. Pride rules. So there's a poll already on the site.

So start voting. And one of these two incredible competitors will emerge victorious. There is a draw option as well. There is a draw option as well. And I am prepared for such an occasion. I'm going to go ahead and say I'm losing the poll early. Certainly pride rules because I didn't say that John Jones is the greatest person I've ever seen fist fight. And fans love that man.

It is. Honestly, I lied earlier. My biggest takeaway from this whole of it, people still love John Jones. When did that happen? I don't remember people loving him to the extent that like, absence makes the heart grow fonder. Take three years off and they were ready to have John back in their life, which is shocking to me. Strap in for after tough because Connor McGregor is going to is going to have a hell of a lot. I understand. I know that's coming. I don't ever feel, I felt like John had defenders, but most people were just like,

whatever to him. I thought the teeth, I felt that John's biggest star power was when he leaned into just being who he is, which is kind of an asshole. That's certainly when I found him the most compelling and interesting, when he was just like,

yeah, I was, I didn't try ever. I was the hookers line. Like, just a great, like that was much more compelling. But he came back.

be reformed john which was garbage and people ate that shit up man they ate that shit up there was little sprinkles but yeah i agree with you to an extent it was it was it was really shows himself it was a little bit of connor into the second dust and porier fight like a little bit of humbled john jones but there was still a little bit in there but yeah people love them the the easiest way to get john off of humble is to mention any other fighter's name if you mention i'm not like go watch the interviews when it's john we're so happy to have you back like how'd you do it like oh well you know i'm just the best and i try to stay humble i've got a great team around me they're going to keep you have the same damn team and they didn't keep you humble for shit previously why is this different

that's all garbage but the minute the moment someone was like francis and ghanu sent a tweet john immediately instantaneously was like fuck that dude pussy like that is you mentioned another guy around him and are like some people are excited that Kamar Usman who was the pound for pound best fighter in the world he's gonna be like he was never the best fighter because I've always been the best fighter go fuck yourself

like the second somebody else gets involved John can't do it anymore he can't keep the facade up it's and it's compelling theater and you know what chat he's right he's right and you know but you know who he put over he put over Volkinovsky he did put over Volkinovsky

did he did during the media day. He said he's happy being the goat, but he's okay if he folks the palm of but you've got to put him over. He kind of put him over. He didn't call him what he called in Ganu or anything else. He likes Volk and Connor. There we go. You can't punch you can't you can't punch down guys. He can't be mean to people that he would literally sit on. But that's, I mean, that was the it's like the old pro wrestling additive. We can't miss you if you don't leave. So John left for a while, came back and people missed him. And there's a lot There were a lot of people who got to learn about John Jones and who he was as a fighter.

And there were a lot of newer fans. That was the first time they've ever seen him fight, which is crazy to think about as well. So there's a lot really going into that. Boarding for flight 246 to Toronto is delayed 50 minutes. What? Sounds like Ojo time. Play Ojo. Great idea.

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comics ontario.ca. Unwrap holiday magic at Holt Renfrew with gifts that say I know you. From festive and cozy fashion to Lux Beauty and Fragrance sets, our special selection has something for every style and price point. Visit our Holtz holiday shop and store or online at Holtrenfrew.com. But I do want to talk about Alexa Grasso and Jed had the opportunity. We should not. to talk about Alexa Grasso, despite the emotional roller coaster ride that was the watch party.

I think Jed has come out on the other side, you know, feeling a little bit better about things. He learned lessons and he taught people some lessons. It's all about learning. But you talk about. Yes. You also talked about your biggest takeaways from that fight. So I'll turn this over to New York Rick right now. This is a huge moment for Alexa Grasso, a huge moment for Mexican MMA.

Jed talked about there were a lot of people who felt the way he felt that this fight was not going to be competitive, that Valentina's physicality was just going to be too much for Alexa Grasso. And I was one of those people and I was wrong and a lot of other people were wrong. But five days later, New York, Rick, what did you take away the most from that victory? Was it from Grasso or was your biggest takeaway on the Schifchenko side? No, it's definitely on the Grasso side. I'm also one of them who thought that this. was a stylistic nightmare. Without the power, Alexa Grasso was a fine technical striker, but without the power,

I thought she was going to have trouble. And I thought Valentina was going to be the more physical fighter and be able to muscle her around. And as we saw in the fight, those skills were a lot closer than a lot of people perceived on paper. And when the opportunity came, Alexa Grasso jumped on that submission with very impressive speed. My bigger takeaway is on the Grasso side.

but in relation to Valentina, if that makes sense, it's this. And it's actually not a new takeaway. It's something I've been believing for a long time. And that is that during Valentina Shevchenko's reign, all of her opponents have been minimized. How minimized and whether she's able to make most people not realize that because of how dominant she can be is, it varies by opponent. but every single time a Valentina Shevchenko fight was announced,

every single fighter that was put in there was food, was supposed to be food for Valentina Shevchenko. It's just the one before the next one. You see Taila Santos be competitive with her, and now you see somebody in Alexa Grasso, who I think is better than Tila Santos, and super tough and super well-rounded, and once again,

she's kind of just food for Valentina Shevchenko or perceived as food for Valentina Shevchenko. It's kind of made, tough sledding for somebody like Valentina Shevchenko who is dominant for so long and we've just talked about in the previous exchange how hard it is to be dominant for that long. Alexa Grasso is really freaking good, like really good. And I say that having just said that stylistically, I thought it was a nightmare. But the featherweight, the flyweight division has caught up to the extent that the top

of the flyweight division is not what it once was. fighters like Alexa Grasso and Aaron Blanchfield are really, really skilled and talented, and we're always going to potentially be in a fight with Valentina Shavchenko. So yeah, my takeaway was people slept on Alexa Grasso. I'm not about to pretend that I wasn't one of them. But I think it was a symptom of this thing where every single time Valencienia Shevchenko had a new opponent and had a fight, they were just minimized to the point that they weren't going to be competitive.

And it's unfair to the opponent, but it's also unfair to Valenciennes. Valentina Shavchenko who's fighting top level competition, which I believe Alexa Grasso to be. So a bit of a mixed bag there, maybe some takeaways for both sides. But there's no doubt that Alexa Grasso is a top flyweight. Like this is not a situation where we're looking at a fight that all of a sudden she won by quote unquote fluke. No, that was that was a fight where Alexa Grasso established herself. And I'm looking forward to what she does next, whether it be a bit against Blanchfield or runs it back with Shepard. Now, there were people, Jed, who were opposed to us, not a ton, who felt like Alexa was a least a live dog here and that Grasso is being supremely underestimated and underrated.

And a lot of it maybe had to do with the Schofchenko win over Tilos Santos. Like you said, maybe people thought Schofchenko was losing her fastball. A lot of people were, I thought this is, I was like, when you beat Tom Brady on the road, doesn't matter who Brady plays at home the next game, he just goes out and kills him. And I kind of like had that same feeling about Valentina. And when we have upsets like this with betting odds and most opinions favoring Valentina because of the stylistic stuff, we always have these conversations about where this ranks in terms of like some of the biggest upsets that we've ever seen inside the octagon. And I feel like we're having this conversation a lot because we're having massive upsets happening. We're having long-raining champions lose Jed.

So if you had like a Mount Rushmore of UFC. upsets, does this make it? Is it close? What do you think? Yeah, it probably makes it. I want to start by saying, uh, hand up. I was all the way wrong.

Anybody claiming some kind of moral high horse or, ah, you guys didn't give a kick rocks, dude, just kick all the rocks in the world. Because ain't a single one of you, mother effers were like, she's going to take the back and choke her out.

Because that's not. a realistic outcome for what happened in this fight. Nobody saw that one freaking come in. So pipe down on any of your high horsery here, right? Like, if you're the one dude who wrote a breakdown and was like, Grasso is extremely underrated on the ground, she got a great R&C, she's going to find the back, she's going to finish this, then take all the bows you ever want. But none of the rest you did, because that's not what she's done. She had one submission in her entire career until last Saturday. She, do you ballpark it?

Give me a number. How many takedowns do you think Alexa Grasso has scored in her UFC career? I have the number right in front of me. Six. It's four. Four of them. She's not what she does. So all I'm saying is just humble yourselves, just a little bit, guys.

That being said, Alexa Grasso looked great. I don't remember what was the original question here, Mike? Is it on the Mount Rushmore of Biggest Upsets? Oh, upsets? It's close. I don't know if it is. I mean, look, the Mount Rushmore of biggest upsets, it's GSP Sarah. That's number one with the bullet.

Pena Nunes, that's also number two. What we know now, certainly with hindsight, Bispings upset on Rockhold doesn't feel as big as it was at the time because Luke Rockhold can't get punched in the face. And so it's a little easier. But at the moment, like we're talking about Rockhold, who was dominant and had literally just both knocked out and choked out Michael Bisping like 18 months prior.

Bissbin coming on short notice, I think that still makes a third. So have four spots up for grabs. And there are a number of them historic- What about Holm Rousey? Where's that on that? It's not on my list, but that's probably the most important

of any of the upsets, right? Like, that was a seismic shift, but the betting markets had home pretty close to, like, a very, like, plus 200 or something, maybe even tighter and close. And a lot of people in the know thought that home had a shot in that fight. But if you're talking significance, that's number one. There has never been a bigger upset than that fight. But if you're just looking at, like, what feels the least probable

and matter to some extent, that four spot, there's a lot of them. this one also might be like Bissping Rockhold where a couple of years down the line it looks really stupid that we thought this was such a big upset but it's in the conversation I don't know if it's on there probably wouldn't quite make it for me but it's definitely in the conversation Rick where are you out with this?

Yeah they're hard to rank just I looked it up real quickly for reference I think Holm was like 5 to 1 it was quite a big betting upset at the front Is that true? Yeah I think, I mean, you know, you talked about Bisping Rockhold. It was kind of that, right? Like, it was like, Ronda was when she was offensively going,

like she was as good as anybody and then she couldn't take the, take the shots. Anyway. Holy shit. You're right. Wow. I don't know how to, I don't know. Okay, that probably makes a four spot then. Yeah.

Because I think what we need to do with a lot of these is we kind of need to see what happens after. I know that doesn't really like logically make sense. Like you should be able to look in a vacuum and say this upset was bigger than this upset. But I think you kind of have to see where they go from there to see how good Alexa Grasso really is. Like and see how good Valentina Shevchenko really is on the downside of this. So I think we need more time if I'm being honest. I think we need to see how the rest of the next couple of fights into the end of the careers play out before I can like properly rank it.

But it's a major upset. It is a major upset. And to Jed's point, like if you're looking around for people that were sitting there with an Alexa Grasso ticket or saying they, you know, this is the path to victory for Alexa Grasso, you're going to be looking for quite a bit.

It's going to be hard to find those people. So major upset, but I don't know historically. I think we need more time. Now back to you. Yeah. I think we got to put so could you, which is pretty much everyone who's watching this has no idea

that I'm talking about. We're pride for us today. So. Yeah. So good you got dummied by Glover at WEC and then knocked out Nog when he was a top five light heavyweight in what was supposed to be a pride squash match. And then like three months later was also supposed to be a pride squash match with the carot-Rona and did it again. Yeah. Best.

Yeah. God. Oh, like 0-608 was the best time in this sport. I think nonsense every day. I think betting odds wise, that's like still the raining. That has to be the biggest. He was like plus 2,500 or something insane. It was like, like, no bullshit.

It was like if Jamie Pickett had just came in and knocked out Bonick. Yep. Like that, that was the entire vibe going into that fight. And then he did it twice in the span of like four months. It was awesome. So back to the magic pencil, Jed. We know where the UFC is going to go with this. We're getting the immediate rematch more than likely.

Shchonko's body of work is champion. Certainly merits that. But we all know. You've been on the show for many years. You are not a huge fan of a media rematches. But is something like this, which of Chenko, with how dominant she was during this long rain that she had, is this the exception for you?

Or if you were the matchmaker, are you just going right to Alexa Grasso versus Aaron Blanchfield right now? I'm a man of principle. No, this is Blanchfield. Like, I, it's not what they're going to do. They're going to run it back. And I understand it. And that's certainly the press.

that they've set. So there's, it would be a little weird to be like, I know the precedent we've set exists, but for you, we won't do that. I don't like it. I think Grasso won the fight

and should be rewarded and not have to win the fight twice. That has always been, unless it is a trilogy bout. Like, I'm okay with them doing Leon Oussman because that's a trilogy bout. Like he won the second fight.

You can always run the third fight immediately as far as I'm concerned. But I don't think it would be a big ass to say Valentina, you've been a great champion, but you lost. Their consequences to losing. We need you to go out there and get a dub. Pick up, you know, fight anybody else. You can run it back with Chukagian or whoever.

Just get another win and then come back. Grasso, we're on a new business. Aaron Blanchfield is waiting. And this one hurts even more. This one feels even lamer to me. Because, again, I'm going to write Alexa Grasso. I know I just wrote her off and paid a hefty price for it. I'm going to do it.

just immediately again. This is Anne Blanchield's belt now. This is, this was her, this really was her belt. Even had she been the one to fight Chivchenko, it would appear. She is the future of this division and she will be the present as soon as she gets the title fight. And I have always been one who's like, if we know who it is, if it's pretty clear that there's a, there's a man or a woman who is the future and it is, or at least really, really has a good chance to be. let's not fiddle around.

Let's make this happen so we can start the thing. I would love Aaron Blanchfield to get the next title fight. If I was in charge, it would be Blanchfield Grasso. They'd do it at Mexico City. Bob's your uncle. We're done. It's not what's going to happen. Rick, put the matchmaking hat on.

We know what's going to happen. But if you had the matchmaking hat, the magic one, are we going to the rematch or are we going right to Blanchfield? Do we know what's going to happen? I think we think we know what's going to happen. think we know what's going to happen. Well, timing is everything here. There's no doubt about it.

Sure. Sure. You know me. I am the king of the two best fighters, run them back, right? I'm the king of that. I will watch a quadrilogy any day. I will watch you do 10 fights in a row. As long as I am confident, I believe that you are the two best fighters in your

weight class. But what I am not is a fan of immediate rematches. for one, I don't think it's very clear that Alexa Grasso and Valentina Shavchenko are number one and two, right? I'm not confident in that. And I think Jed kind of alluded to this a little bit in the like crown the uncrowned king territory or crown the uncrowned queen territory in this case. I'm not 100% sure. I think Aaron Blanchfield is in that mix. I'd like to see kind of like who is number one and number two.

Number two, I think that immediate rematch is just bogged down divisions that don't need to be. bogged down. What's the problem? What's the issue with Valentina Shepchenko going out there and getting any other fight and any other win? And then fighting Alexa Grasso or Aaron Blanchfield after that. Why does it need to be immediate? Why does it have to be the thing right after? There's no reason to it. Other than this kind of reverence for the champion who's been raining a long time, I'm sorry. Like, I don't care. I really don't care and the days of like meritocracy are long dead. We don't need to pretend like we have these traditions that we uphold an MMA that like must survive forever.

Let's just move on. Let's just get Alexa Grasso another fight. Get Valencia Chavchenko another fight. And then they can meet up later if they both win. There's nothing wrong with that. And it's annoying. And we're sitting now waiting for a third fight between Giuliana Pena and Amanda Nunes for what? What are we doing?

Why? Why didn't need to be run back immediately that time? And why are we waiting for it again? Every single time they do this, it feels like the UFC is trying to correct history, right? It feels like they're going back and they're trying to do a back to the future, correct the history of, we don't really want Giuliana Pena as the champion. We want Amanda Nunes as a champion. So we're going to correct it.

We don't really want Alexa Grasso as a champion. So now let's let Chevchenko steal the title back. I don't care for that. And I'm kind of don't get mad at me because I'm not. speaking for the UFC and I don't know that they feel this. But if there is a tinge of that, there is a feeling of just like trying to correct what happened in a big upset, Leon Edwards,

Kamar Usman was the number one pound for pound and he got shockingly upset by Leon Edwards. Let's, let's really make them earn it this time. I'm just over that. I'm just over that. Let's move the freaking divisions on and let's really find out who are the best at the top of these divisions. And Valentina Shochenko can go out there and beat somebody else and get a title shot right

after that. That's perfectly fine. There's nothing wrong with it. It's not disrespectful. It's how fighting works. Congratulations, Valentina. Fantastic rain. If you get the title back, nobody's going to be too upset.

Nobody's going to feel like you got disrespected. Let's just do that. Cheapens the win. Also, like, if Valentina wins this, then we have to do a third. Precedent will demand a third fight, which is just like, why? Why can't we just do it? Max lost his second fight and he fought twice. And you know what happened?

The third fight ruled. We were all like, hell yeah, let's do this third fight. This makes sense. Just fight somebody else. It's one of my least favorite parts of the competitive part of this sport. Especially in this division where there's so many up-and-comers right now, too. There's Tyler Santos. There's Manifioro.

Casey O'Neill is coming back next week on the pay-per-view. I mean, there's lots of fighters right now. Straight up, I would much, much rather see. Valentina Shipchanko say, you know what I lost this one. I'm going to move to 135. I'd like to fight Raquel Pennington for a title shot. Like 125 has got a lot of young people coming up. I've done what I need to do here.

I could try and get the belt back. Maybe I could. Maybe I couldn't. I don't know. But the fans have been wanting for years for me to fight Amanda. I know I can't get one coming off an L. So I'm going to go pursue that now. I'm going to go back to 135, dog shit division.

could use all the help it can get as far as people are concerned. And let the young guns at 125 play the game now. You know, much better outcome. You know what it would be kind of cool and badass, though, is if Valentina Shepchenko was like, you were all saying my name, you all wanted it.

Casey O'Neill, your number's been called. Come on up and get a shot. And she puts it on her. Or Casey O'Neill establishes herself as the next thing. But that'd be pretty cool if she's like, I heard all of you. And now that I don't have to, the belt, I'm free to take one of you.

I'm picking one of you and let's do it. I think that'd be pretty badass for Valentina Shvchenko. It would also be cool. The least cool outcome is her fighting Grasso again. Yeah, don't, don't need it. It's just the least interesting of all the possible fights you could do here. Well, what a moment it was for Alexa Grasso.

What a victory. Just another thing that makes the sport so damn cool, even though the aftermath, we may not get what we want, but the moment of itself was very strong. Disagree, Mike. For 99.9% of MMA fans, there is that 1.1% who bet all of their money on balance to Shepchenko and it didn't work out well. But as far as the rest of the card goes, New York Creek, I want to start with you.

A lot of other things happen at UFC 285. None of what you're being talked about because John Jones has taken over the headlines. We had some big wins in the main car. We had some debuts. We had some big moments in the prelims as well. So if you could crown a low-key MVP from UFC 285, a six-player award winner, well. Who would it be? This is a tough one. It's probably Shavkat, and I know that's like the obvious, easiest answer, but it's probably Shavkat. Like, we saw some things that we hadn't seen before.

He got tested against somebody who in Jeff Neal, I think, is a very high level fighter. And this could have been the one where it was like, yeah, you know what? Shavcott's great, but he bit off more than he could chew. And he did it. And he showed his levels against somebody who, who I think is also very good. So for me, it's probably Shavkat. I was impressed. I was impressed. And if you had told me that it wouldn't have been a blowout,

I wouldn't have expected to be impressed. I would have thought that I wouldn't be impressed. But he did the things in that fight that I needed to see. And I was pretty damn impressed by Shavcott. Jed, what say you? I mean, Shavkat's the most impressive of the thing. So it's hard to argue. if we're going low-key,

it also doesn't feel incredibly low-key just because he was the third fight in the main card. Like, he was in the prime position and he delivered. Uh, standing bulldog choke. That's what it is. I don't,

I don't know why Pete, why this is, like, those are R&C. Do you know what an R&C is? It's a bulldog choke, but the same choke. It's just one of them doesn't have hooks in.

It's done on the side. Like, he just bulldog choked that man. It was dope. Give the man the credit for a standing bulldog, not for this. wonky R&C, which is much less cool. But if I'm picking Loki, I'm going to do the man himself, DDP,

because this guy is just the funniest fighter in the world. There is nothing. I will pay any amount of dollars to watch whoever he's fighting. I am in a worldwide desperately hope. His next fight is against the loser of the upcoming Adasanya Paheta rematch. because this man has no sense of self-regard, like, whatsoever. I know he was on the MMA hour and said that he can't breathe out of his nose. I'm like, that's why he breathes out of his mouth.

I'm not here to call the man a liar. I'm not sure that that fully explains why his cardio is the way it is. But his cardio isn't a problem, which is the best part of it. He just, we see this from time to time. There are fighters who can get tired and just fight tired real, real hard. It's awesome and he's one of them And whoever put this fight together And do exactly what they were doing

If there's Sean Shelby or Mick Whoever it was Kudos to you Just a delightful violent ballet And him getting on the mic Afterwards just doing all the stuff People love him And there is a world

Where we can watch this man run headlong Into freaking shots from Alex Beheada Later this year And good God I couldn't want anything more in my life. That is in my top five fights I most want to see this year. There's Drix Duplice

versus Alex Beheada because I have no idea what will happen, but it will be violent and hilarious. Speaking of middleweights, I do want to touch quickly on the debut of Bo Nickel if I could and Rick, I'll go back to you. Finishes Jamie Pickett in the first round,

submits him, a little controversy, potential low blow before the takedown boat. We reported last night, the NAC, saw nothing conclusive to overturn it. Pickett's team is aware of this as well. They haven't decided as of now whether they will continue the appeal or not. And even if they did, it seems pretty clear nothing will come of it. But after he got the contract on the contender series,

people were saying he could fight and beat top 15 guys right now. We had people on this very show, our own Damon Martin. There's receipts saying that he would beat Israel out of Sonia right now coming off the contender series. So after this performance, everybody seems still pretty high on him. But I guess some of the expectations have been toned back at smidge. Fighters like Henry Sehudo come out and said, look, he's green, very high ceiling, but no need to rush this guy, get six wins, then fight a top 10 guy. So I'm curious where you are at with Bo Nickel right now.

What could be next for Bo Nickel? Do you give him a big step up, a small one, or just keep him kind of where he's at right now? First, let me say, oh, thank God, because I thought you were going to ask me about the stupid knee controversy, and I was going to be extremely upset. Bone nickel, it's one of two ways, right? They could rush him along, right? There's a real evidence that they're able to kind of do that, and they've been inclined in certain scenarios to do that, to give him favorable style matchups to rush him higher into the rankings. But I just don't see a reason. Bo Nichols really young in his MMA career.

We've seen somebody like Henry Sehudo as the top cream of the crop level wrestler come along and have a path to competing for championships. I don't see a reason why you need to rush him into it in that capacity. We don't know enough. He's not fought anybody that I would consider somebody who could have tested him or really pressed them. So I think you do the slow build. there's literally no reason that I can think of that you need to rush this bone nickel thing overnight, continue to get him cage experience,

continue to let him train and improve in between fights. I don't need to, I personally don't care about him fighting in the top 10 right now. I know the kind of narratives are around his potential and talking about, I want to fight Hamzad and things like that. I don't need to see it now. I'm fine with waiting a little bit on that. I think the inclination to rush everybody just for boredom's sake is kind of lame.

So yeah, give him a nice step up, a solid guy on the roster. But we don't need to rush him into the rankings. There's literally no reason for that. He's got plenty of time. Dad, what do you think? How are we doing this? What's our goal? What are we trying to accomplish with Bill Nicol?

That's how I, that is the question for what we're doing. Are we trying for him to be a long-reaning champion? Then, yeah, slow build for sure. I think that's, you are laying the foundation for this man's, combat sports career. He has some of the foundation with the wrestling background, but MMA wrestling and wrestling like D1 freestyle wrestling, folk style wrestling, they're not the same. So you're laying the foundation. We have seen, I made this argument, something I wrote, I don't know, two weeks ago, that Bo-Nickle Cadabbs is probably the best prospect of the last like five years.

And one of the best prospects ever on paper. We've seen people with similar accolades fall short. we've seen many of them succeed too, you know. But for every Henry Suhudo and Daniel Cormier, there's a Jake Groschalt, who had just as many collegiate accomplishments. Can any of you tell me the last time, like, who Jake Groschalt's most recent fight was, or what his biggest win was? Like, you'd never know how the ball's going to break. The best thing you can do is do the slow build.

The U.S.C. has historically not been in the market of slow building. They are in the market of, we're not going to throw you immediately in the deep water. We're going to give you a soft pitch. We're going to give you another one. We may give you a third, depending on how we're feeling. And then we're going to give you a fastball. We're going to put something right down the plate and see if you can make contact. And if you can, then we're off to the races.

We'll see just how high you can go. We've seen that historically. Saw them do that with John Jones, et cetera, et cetera. I think that's what's in store for Bo Nickel. It's not what I would do. He's so young, so green. I would just give him, Henry Sohudo fought for the title in like his 11th pro fight. I was just looking this up while Rick was talking.

And it was too early. You saw that. It was simply too early. He's fighting Demetrius Johnson, one of the best fighters, maybe the best fighter in history. And his 11th pro fight, that's way too soon. And he got run over in that fight. That fight was not, that was the fight that I was like, oh, Demetrius Johnson's the best fighter in the world. He got run over.

Bo Nickle could beat top 15 guys right now. If you told me he was fighting Alex Paharterm Mar. I'd probably pick both. Like, I don't, that's partly because it's middleweight, weird also at the moment, but there are other guys in the top 15. He could be. I don't, we don't need to see him do that. We need to have him develop at least to some extent.

I would have him on a two-year track of, we're going to get you three fights this year, 2023, all the same level, like maybe slightly better than Jamie Pickett, but we're not trying to do too much. 2024 my target would be for the end of 24 5 fights from now for Bo to be fighting a top 15

maybe a high end of the top 15 you know top 10 top 11 guy and then we can see because once you're in the top 15 we see this across all weight classes you can move quickly and you can hold that ranking forever because of how that works

so I mean Drickett 2 plus C got in the top 15 like two what like a fight two fights ago and now he's top five and probably a win away. You can speed run him once he's in there, but just take the time to get him in there when you can feel very confident that he will do very well. That's what I would want if I was Bose management.

It's what I was one if I'm the UFC and view him as a potential star to build around. I think that that's the best course of action. I don't think it's going to happen, though. Well, that is UFC 285. UFC 286, kind of a tough spot to be in to try to have to follow that card two weeks later, but we'll talk more about that on next week's show.

The poll is up, and it is very, very close. Pride rules, this could be it. This could determine it all. With Amex Platinum, $400 in annual credits for travel and dining means you not only satisfy your travel bug, but your taste buds too. That's the powerful backing of Amex. Conditions apply. It's hockey season, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats.

Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get a nice rank on Uber Eats. But iced tea, ice cream, or just plain old ice? Yes, we deliver those. Goaltenders, no. But chicken tenders, yes. Because those are groceries, and we deliver those too. Along with your favorite restaurant food, alcohol, and other everyday essentials.

Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. So let's talk about this weekend. We have multiple events. We have multiple cards of note.

And we have Bellator 293 tomorrow, kickoff with the lightweight Grand Prix. Two fights in the opening round. We have the main event for the title between Usman and Maga Madoff and Benson Henderson. That's the main event. UFC is back on Saturday in Las Vegas, not at the apex, which is a nice change of pace. Regardless the reason for it, I'm not complaining. That one headlined by Piotr-Yon versus Marabda-Wallis, really. So, Jed, you know where I'm going with this.

You can only watch one. You can't find out results of the other until Monday. What are you watching? Bellator 293 or UFC Las Vegas. This is actually pretty competitive this time around. Usually there's a really clear answer. I'm going with Bellator in this one. But it's competitive.

So the UFC's main event is really good. I'm excited to bring this up, though, because I talked about this on No Bet's Bar this week. I just want to throw a quick shout out to everybody. who erroneously claims that Bannamweight is the best division in this sport, because there are five, count them five Bannamweight fights on the UFC event this weekend. And it ain't one of y'all coming out being like, this is the greatest fight night I've ever seen in my life.

I cannot wait to watch. It's like, this is okay. This is not bad because it's not as good. If you picked any random five live weight fights, it's going to be a better card, guarantee it. And fortunately, I can do that by just looking at Bela-Toran being like, oh, this is the start of their lightweight Grand Prix? That's far more compelling and interesting to me.

Usman or Mugmettov. Arguably the future of this division is about to fight against the past of this division in a fight that theoretically should be a whitewashing, but I know nothing anymore after last weekend, so who knows? Is it Shibli? His name can't be Shabli, right? Shabli. It's Shabli, I believe.

Shabli. Okay. I just assumed it couldn't be Shabbly. Shabli versus Tofique. is an awesome fight. That fight rules so much. Moldovsky Vassel is a relevant fight, even if it is going to be a tough hang.

Michael Page, go to Yamachi, like that fight rules. Like, Enrique Brazola, Eric Perez, also that fight rules. Like,

there's just so much going on in the Bellator card. Even, like, their early prelims are always trash. That's just sort of how they make up their cards with people who don't have any experience. but when you get into the meat of it,

it's really, really good. I will take that over, I'm sorry, A.K., I hate to do this to you, over watching Vitor Petrino take on the pleasure, man, Anton Terkalsh. Rick, where are you at? Are we on the Bellator side or the UFC side here? Yeah, I'm pretty firmly on the Bellator side. I will also grant, though,

that it's a little bit of Bellator's punching above their average weight and UFC's punching below, not below their average weight, but maybe at their average weight, which they have declined. This is above their average weight for their fight night cards over the past two years. You're right. It is slightly, but man, they have just destroyed fight night cards to the point where it's like, if we get something like this, we're salivating and it's fine.

It's fine. But for me, there's just more compelling matchups on the Bellator card. I really care. And to one of the points Jed mentioned, like, yeah, it should be a whitewashing. but like Benson Henderson finds ways to like squeeze out split decisions as a dog on random fights.

So I'm kind of intrigued by that one. I got to admit, even though it feels like it should be one-way traffic for Usman, all of a sudden, Benson wins a split decision is a world that I could see living in. So yeah,

I'm just more compelled by all the fights on the main card for Bellator are more compelling for me. It just comes down to that. And it's a good UFC fight night, as we said. like it's a little above the average UFC Apex or Vegas, whatever they call it 60X, but it's not enough to top Bellator this week. So Belator did a good job here.

I agree. I love the Mosayev Shabli fight. It shouldn't be a low key banger because it's a five-round tournament fight and a co-main event, but nobody's talking about it. Nobody's talking about it because all eyes are on this main event. And it's crazy. Usman Ramaga Madoff, I looked at the lines before he hit record anywhere from a minus 1,600 favorite to a minus 2,000 favorite.

That's cheap. Minus 1600 is a good line. That's wild. That's incredible. One last thing for the sake of time. Let's talk about the main event for the UFC. I'll start with you, New York. We got Piotr-Yan versus Marob de Wallace-Willi.

Bannon Wade is fun. Kind of a mess right now. Many contenders emerging with championship aspirations. We have the Aljimane Sterling versus Henry Sehudo title fight targeted for UFC 288. Sean O'Malley's out there waiting in the wings. We have Cheeto Vera versus Corey Sanhagen going down a little over two weeks time in the main event of UFC San Antonio.

New York, what is that stake in this main event on Saturday between Jan and Marab with the division looking the way it does right now? It's a little bit complicated. It's a little bit muddy for the fact that Jan against Aljimate Sterling is not really like a makeable fight. and Marab against Al Jemaine Sterling is not really a makeable fight because they won't fight. So it kind of muddies the waters a little bit.

But I do think that there are potential title implications depending on how the title fight breaks and how the guys look in this particular performance. But it's messy. It really is just messy at Bannonweight when one of the top guys is somebody who's fought the champion twice. And the other guy is somebody who is teammates with the champion. and I won't fight him and will only fight for the belt when he leaves the division.

So it makes it hard to kind of establish the stakes. But I do believe these are two of the best bantam weights. And I do believe that whoever comes out of this will have a strong claim to be able to say, I should be next in line. It's just will they be able to, will the champion be somebody that they can do that, where they can plant that flag and establish that for? So again, it's messy. It's messy at bantamweight, no doubt about it.

If Henry Sohudo wins, that opens things up for a lot of people. But yeah, these are just two of the best bantam weights, and the winner of this will be able to sit pretty in terms of that title picture. But again, it really just depends on who the champion is. Jed, what are these guys fighting for? They are fighting for a very long wait. And I'm going to say probably an interim title shot. So here's what's going to happen, right?

We've got Zahudo. We've got Al Jermaine Sterling are going to be fighting it out. If Sterling wins and Marab wins, they won't fight each other. That's actually the best case scenario for Marab. Because if Sterling and Marab win, there's at least a world where Sterling says, F it, I'm moving up to 1.45. And Marab gets to fight for the belt the same way Habib tried to do with Islam. I've been pitching that as the correct scenario for them to try and make happen.

I think that can happen. If, which I think is the more likely outcome, Suhudo wins. I don't, Suhudo is going to instantaneously fight Sean O'Malley because he is not a dummy. He is going to look at that band and be like, I would like to, I would like to hit the pinata filled with gold coins.

I will fight that man. Sterling will then be, I don't know, I have no idea. Maybe fight Cheatera, I have no clue. And Marab will be in the worst case scenario because he will have nothing to do. He will then have to fight somebody else, Rob Faunt or whoever,

it is because Suhudo's going to do that and then I guarantee you. I would bet and this means a lot less coming off of this past weekend. I would bet every dollar I own that after Suhudo beats Sterling and then beats O'Malley, he is never fighting at Bantamweight again. He is never doing it again. There is no world. He will hold that belt. He won't leave it this time. He will hold it until the UFC takes it from his hands while crying from the rooftops that he wants to fight Volcanovsky. So everyone wants,

needs to hope So if he does, neither Marab nor Jan are getting a crack at a belt anytime soon. And if it does happen in the next year, at best it's an interim. If Sterling wins at least there's more opportunity, certainly for Jan to try and get another crack at it, but they're just kind of,

fighting to hold place right now and to sit and wait around for something else to happen in the future. Well, we will see what happens. And the good news about the show FC card, 3 p.m. prelums, 6 p.m. main card. I don't care why it's happening that way, but I'm very happy it's happening that way. So there you go. It's a, it's a beautiful thing. It's a beautiful thing. It's a beautiful thing. It has something to do with it. The venue probably has something to do with it. If this was an apex card, they can, they can do it whenever the hell they want. Yeah, but I love that. And we all know why they're doing that so people can go back to the apex and take in some power slapping if they so choose.

But there you go. All right. This has been a spirited battle, gentlemen. You agreed on some things. You disagreed on others. And that's the spirit of this program. That's what the show is all about. We are ending the poll right now.

And this has just been a very close battle. Jedd, is that to say that you believe Marab wins? I kind of was reading the leaves there. Oh, no, I think Yan's going to win. Okay, because you didn't mention him in the second. I don't have any confidence in it. I just,

I, Jan probably should have, he, I thought he beat Sean O'Malley, very close fight, but I thought he beat him. I mean, we all know what happened in the two Sterling fights.

I thought Jan lost the second one, but maybe people don't believe it. Like, there are some people out there who, not without at least a some sort of a leg to stand on can rightly believe that Peoria is undefeated um like or should be undefeated and so it's like I think he should beat Marab but I don't have any confidence at this point because he seems to be low rolling his career same same feeling same boat as you on that for sure yeah even if he wins like

Sterling's not going to fight him again sterling is either going to 145 or he's going to fight. The best case scenario is Sterling wins. Yeah, but he's going to fight O'Malley before trying to go to 145. So Jan is also stuck in a holding pattern. It's just. O'Malley's in a good spot. O'Malley's in a good spot.

Well, that fight could go to the judges. But in MMA, there's only three judges. Today there's hundreds and hundreds of judges. Millions. Pride rules. Millions and millions. Billions, even. Well, we're not one.

Calm down. Yeah, you're right. Draw was an option, which 23% of the judges went with draw. That's what I would have gone with, but who are I? This was a majority draw. This is a very close battle. Only two percentage points separated these two combatants, and the winner with 39% of the vote to his opponents, 37% of the vote. That is close.

New York, Rick, gets it done. 39% he is the people's champion today. Pride rules. See, it's the normal round by round rules, Rick. It's not your thing, but when we throw you in a pride scenario, you are thriving, my man. So we're clear, these aren't pride rules. Pride doesn't have draw as an option.

Pride plus. This is more shooter rules that we're operating on right now. It's funny you say that because I've won all these exhibitions. And my record still stinks. My record stinks. Luckily, we don't have all the bells and whistles, so we can't even put your record on the board. So today, you are 1 in 0, New York, Rick.

What would you like to say? You know what? It's not about the record, Mike. It really is about being here and just being able to spend this quality time with both of you guys and anybody, you know, who comes on this great program. And with the fans, like, you know,

I love you. As wrong as you got this one and Jed deserved to win, I love you guys with all my heart. And you're the reason we do this. Like, this is all for you. And just being able to work in MMA and enjoy this career and this life that we've built all three of us here and everybody else who brings you content. It's a blessing. It's a blessing to be alive.

It's a beautiful day. Go out, have some fun, get some fun, enjoy some fights this weekend. We're lucky. We're all lucky people. And it's just a miracle. And I'm so happy to be able to share this with everybody. Rick Jones question from the back. Francis and Donnie tweeted at you.

F that guy. Don't even mention his name to me. That was like the first thought I had was exactly. I'm so glad you dunked that now. I'm unbelievable. Jedd, how are you feeling? This is a spirited battle. Spirit of battle.

It is a great time. I have recently, I'm just as a teaser. I've recently figured out what the next actual good power slap can be. So, Dana, just cut your losses. This is very clearly not going to make you the money that you had hoped it would. But I have an idea that that can really, can really do it. So, you know, send me an email.

Jed, Jed, Michoud's Power Slap. Wow. I didn't see that company. It's much better than Power Slap. Okay. If we're not revealing this, this is for... No, no, no. Can't do it.

I can't give it away. I'm waiting for the email from the UFC. Trust me, though. This one, this one's a winner. Well, the MMA media will or fight circus will actually do it because I will give it to them for free. Ah, there you go.

There you go. When's their next event? Have they announced it? Uh, I don't remember. Maybe April. I believe there's some things coming soon. I may have talked to people who know things. There's things.

There's things happening. I mean, it's going to be very exciting. It's always exciting. I want to say that they have something in April, but I can't remember that. Exactly for certain. Well, we will keep you posting on that. They do have rampage now under some level of contract.

Good God. Who knows what we're about to be doing? Oh, my goodness gracious. Well, shout out to fight circus. Shout out to all of you for watching. We'll be back next week to recap Bellator 293, UFC Las Vegas, and we'll be officially on the road to UFC 286 in London, the rematch between Leon Edwards and Kamar Usman.

we get the lightweight juggernauts fights between Justin Gage and Rafael Fazeve. We get maybe the middleweightest middleweight championship fight. If we want to go that route with Marvin Vittori against Roman DeLidezay and the return of Casey O'Neill. This isn't the biggest name value card, especially if you compare it to UFC 285, but there are some freaking bangers on this one. So we are very excited for that. We'll talk more about that next week.

So for Rick, for Jed, I am by. Tech back next week. Good night, everybody. Love you. Listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. Okay, only 10 more presents to wrap. You're almost at the finish line. But first, there, the last one. Enjoy a Coca-Cola for a pause that refreshes. Hi, I'm Sophia Loper Caro, host of the Before the Chorus podcast. We dive into the life experiences behind the music we love. Artists of all genres are welcome,

and I've been joined by some pretty amazing folks, like glass animals. I guess that was the idea as to try something personal and see what happened. And Japanese breakfast. I thought that the most surprising thing I could offer was an album about joy. You can listen wherever you get your podcasts.

Oh, and remember, so much happens before the chorus.