MMA Fighting - BTL | Leon Edwards Is Crowned, Usman's Future, Rockhold Retires, Ferguson vs. Jingliang

Episode Date: August 25, 2022

Leon Edwards is the new UFC welterweight champion, and while a rematch with Kamaru Usman is the obvious choice, is it the best one?  On an all-new episode of Between the Links, the panel will react to Edwards' stunning last-minute KO of Usman in the main event of UFC 278, what the first title defense for Edwards should be, and what Usman's future looks like. In addition, topics include Luke Rockhold retiring after a hard fought battle with Paulo Costa, Merab Dvalishvili's win over José Aldo and how it shapes the bantamweight division, Mike Perry's win over Michael Page at #BKFCLondon, the UFC 279 matchup between Tony Ferguson and Li Jingliang, and more. Host Mike Heck moderates the matchup between MMA Fighting's Jed Meshew and Morning Kombat's Brian Campbell.  Follow Mike Heck: @MikeHeck_JR Follow Jed K. Meshew: @JedKMeshew Follow Brian Campbell: @BCampbell Subscribe: http://goo.gl/dYpsgH Check out our full video catalog: http://goo.gl/u8VvLi Visit our playlists: http://goo.gl/eFhsvM Like MMAF on Facebook: http://goo.gl/uhdg7Z Follow on Twitter: http://goo.gl/nOATUI Read More: http://www.mmafighting.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

With Amex Platinum, you have access to over 1,400 airport lounges worldwide. So your experience before takeoff is a taste of what's to come. That's the powerful backing of Amex. Conditions apply. It's hockey season, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get a nice rank on Uber Eats. But iced tea, ice cream, or just plain old ice?

Yes, we deliver those. Goaltenders, no. But chicken tenders, yes, because those are groceries, and we deliver those too. Along with your favorite restaurant food, alcohol, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region.

See app for details. You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. From M.M.A. Fighting Studios, this is Between the Links. And now, your host, my... The iconic voice. of Esther Lynn welcomes you to a brand new edition of Between the Links. And we are bringing an absolute fire matchup to you today right here on the MA Fighting YouTube channel.

A lot to discuss. We've had a lot to break down, a lot to digest over the last five or so days. We have a new welterweight champion of the world in Leon Edwards. One of the craziest moments in UFC history to cap off UFC 278. A lot to unpack from that event from this past weekend in general. just a lot to talk about. So let's get into this thing and introduce the combatants first.

A winner of back-to-back matchups, the winningest player in the history of the game. He's had some fiery takes lately. He's evoked emotion as only this man can do from M.MA fighting from no bets barred. Damn, they were good and much more. Jedbyshu is back. Hello, sir.

How are you? Guys, I'm excited because I think we're going to have a great episode. I mean, oftentimes you put some jackass or scrub against me, but I feel pretty good about Brian. So it's going to be a fun one. Yes. And this is an opponent for Jed that a lot of people have been asking for. We made it happen, which I appreciate.

I'm a big fan of this gentleman and his work over at CBS Sports and morning combat alongside the great Luke Thomas. And apparently he's a guy that no man should get locked in a bathroom stall with anywhere in the world. So let us welcome to the show for the very first time. What an intro. Mr. Ryan Campbell, BC. Welcome.

Wow. Thank you for inviting me, guys. I have no idea what I'm getting into, but I'm excited. I wanted to bring some good karma, so I picked up the Rousey Wins Again shirt for this little competition here, all right? She's still undefeated, right? Yeah, okay, we're good. Here we go. We're off to a great start already.

Let's not wait. Let's get right into this matchup. Let's get into the news of the week, probably the news of the year at this moment. Leon Edwards is the UFC welterweight champion. And it's not just that he's the champion. and it's the way that he did it, how he did it, and it will be a moment that we're never going to forget. And if you've been asleep for the last week,

Kamar Usman, less than a minute away from his six successful title defense, and then boom, Leon lands the shocking head kick, Usman goes down at a heap, and Rocky is officially crowned. What a moment, what a turn of events. BC, let's begin with you. How do you react to this moment, this fight, this ending five days later, after all the breakdowns, the analysis, and all of it?

I'm still trying to like frame it. Like what does this mean? What am I supposed to feel here? Certainly I feel inspired by Leon Edwards who, you know, people say I've got a UK bias. People say, oh, you're just another one of those journalists who thought this guy had no chance. Yeah. I mean, I thought he had a puncher's chance. I thought he had a fighter's chance.

I thought this would be very much the one-sided fight that rounds two, three, four ended up producing. Obviously, let's give Leon a ton of credit for the wind streak to get here, for taking down Usman in the first round for surprising us. early. But this is a special kind of unique, special and unique moment in many ways that is hard to frame. Like we can make comparisons to Silvasan or home rousy or whatever you want to go with. But this guy was getting his ass kicked in ways that was largely predictable until he wasn't. And I know that nobody wants you to use the word fluke because, you know, they got the inside cameras to show you that finishing move was something that was set up, that was practice, that

that was looked for. This was not Lucky Punch territory. But to act like there's no luck involved in this, in the sequence and timing in which it happened, I think would be to miss the moment. It's not just luck, but that played a part in it. I'm inspired, but what Leon did. But am I a curmudgeon for saying,

I kind of need to see this another time to see if I really believe what just happened, actually just happened? I know I said that after Pena Nunes, and people thought I was a communist, But that's where I kind of sit right here, right now, today. Jed, you were on the post-fight show. You reacted a couple of hours after the big moment.

How does it sit now a little less than a week later? I mean, it's aged better. And I thought it was really cool at the time. And it's, I have watched that, the Rocky promo, whatever you want to call it, clip of Leon's corner, maybe 6,000 times. Like, that's awesome. I've seen the head kick so many times. It's not a fluke.

He kicked him in the freaking head. That's it. I know the people want to talk about it. I'm not here to say that that was the most likely outcome because it very obviously was not. But like, it's so obviously not a fluke because they have the receipts. They have the receipts of being like, hey, this dude dips his head this way. if you can get on the angle, flash the left,

and then kick him in the face. And he did it. So it's like obviously not a fluke. It's not a lucky kick. It is a kick that happened in circumstances where he was super behind. And so that is going to, because of the tenor of the rest of that fight,

I understand why people are, you know, why Brian says, I want to see it again. I want to see it again. Because it was cool as hell. And if he does it again, that's even cooler.

But I believe every bit it. He kicked him in the face and Kamar Usman fell down. It's not that surprising that if a professional fighter who is good at fisticuffs kicks you in the face and you are 35 years old, you get knocked the F out. And that is what happened. And Leon Edwards is your new champion. And I'm cool with it. It's amazing how quickly things turn in this sport because Leon Edwards becomes a superstar overnight and his stock just continues to rise every day throughout the weekend. Look at the numbers, I know how you feel we'll get into question. I am not willing to call him

superstar. Right now, this week he is. There's no damn bad about that. But Kamara Usman has become a meme, so to speak. People are saying that he's washed. And I feel like people are forgotten what Kamar Usman has done heading up to this point. And by the way, in defeat,

I think he's handled himself incredibly well. He told Dana why, at least is what Dana said on Tuesday, that he's a bit relieved, that a weight's been lifted off his shoulders. and he's just excited to run it back in London early next year. But Jed, your thoughts on how Usman is handling things. We'll talk matchmaking in a minute if you were the guy with that pencil and all of that, but just the handling of it all.

And let's play it off for the time being like, this fight is a thousand percent unequivocally the fight we're getting. What is that stake for Usman aside from vengeance and trying to get the belt back? What's on the line if and when this third fight happens? I mean, his legacy? It's not because, come on, Usman's legacy is lock. If he never fought again, he's the second greatest

World War II of all time, a top 15, maybe even a top 10 fighter of all time. Like if he just retired tomorrow, I think both of those are very, very clear. But if he wants to, which he obviously had designs on coming into this Leon fight, and probably had

designs on right until Leon Shin put those right out of his freaking head and into the Netherworld being the greatest fighter ever, if he wants that, he has to win the trilogy. He has to come back. and he won't prove it was a fluke because like I said, it just wasn't. Very obviously wasn't.

But he can prove that he is the better fighter and that it, that's just MMA, that if you fight 10 times, something's going to happen because there are simply too many variables to control. But he is the better fighter. And if he does that and Beatsley on Edwards, then he can get back to building the resume to contest George St. Pierre. Because I know some, some people who are idiots, believe that he is already. the greatest Walter right of all time.

I cannot stress you enough, those people are frigging morons. But if he wants to be that, he has to come back and beat Leon Edwards and then beat Hamzot and then defend the belt a couple more times and then the conversation can be had. So that's, and that seems to be what he wants. He was, you know, he was talking all about before. I want the respect. I want to go up to light heavyweight.

Cool. You got to do Leon first now. Like, Leon is now the priority if he wants to make any of that happen. BC. Yeah, did Jed just call Dana an idiot? Is that what he did? All the time. As often as I possibly can.

You want to talk for seats. People, if you say fluke, it's like a scarlet letter. Look, if I walk up to Tracy Corteskin and tell you guys, I'm about to ask for a number right in front of Brian Ortega, and if somehow she gives it to me, just because I planned it, that means it makes sense? No, it's a freaking fluke if that happens at the end of the day. I just want you to realize that.

With this factory town looking ass right here, but what is Camaro gain out of it? Yes, with what you're saying with legacy, no question. Because let's be really honest about something. The whole goal idea and what this fight was supposed to mean was really jammed down our throats in ways that didn't necessarily make sense and I think to cover for the fact that this wasn't a sexy matchup coming in. And even though we love Leon Edwards now,

because we got to see the real Rocky come out, this was a Marty Snoosman snooze fest on the way in. We needed this sort of over the top goat. One more win ties Anderson-Silvo. Where is he on your goat list? We all sort of needed that to get excited about this fight. That's still in play if he redeems this loss, Camaro. In fact, we're being really honest, the public tends to connect and love guys more when they face adversity and come back and do this thing.

And that's really been the biggest problem for Camaro on this rise. Greatness has followed him each step of the way on the wind streak before this loss. The reality is that he was getting closer to the all-time great conversation, but anyone putting him ahead of GSP at Walter, like you mentioned, or going straight to the top, it was too early. But what if he goes in there and does the thing that's true currency to the American fan, right? Getting up off your back and running the back. I tell you what's at stake, not only the legacy, but the connection to the fans,

which is something Camaro's never been able to do. Is he too corny? Is he not marketable? If there's some things in there, but you know what he is? Yes, is the answer. he's a consistent winner. His comments and how he's handled this defeat to everyone have been on the up and up. And his lack of connection to the fans could be fixed by an inspirational comeback win.

And so could his finances, because the two dances with Colby, the two dances with Jorge, yeah, they were big fights, but they didn't do to him what Chil Sanin did to Anderson Silva, to put him over in the public eye on such a high commercial level. The public didn't buy in to that level. But now he gets to go to England potentially where it's on fire, more money, bigger show, bigger card. Hey, put it in Wembley Stadium for 80K. Let's do some Anthony Joshua type of shit. For Kamaro, he may end up better off in the wrong run.

Legacy, financial, fan love and respect after going through this, even though boy, is it humbling, as Jed said, to get ticked in the face on this type of stage. I'm happy Rocky got his moment, but you see Kamaro open up as a minus 350 betting underdog in the rematch for a reason. You got to take the fight. you got to win it, he's going to have that opportunity. Now, Brian, we always talk about how an MMA that we should stop focusing on the word deserves, especially in the sport, especially in the UFC, because as the great little Wayne has said, money is the motive, right? And Leon Edwards, the guy most cast aside, the guy, a lot of people, some panelists

included, said nobody cared about. And now he has this life-changing moment, which, by the way, let me throw on my two cents, it wasn't lucky, it wasn't a fluke. It's not like he tripped over his own feet and elbowed Kamara Usman unconscious. I think that's kind of nonsense. But be that, Esamay, he's got big fights ahead of him. Right now, big money fights and play. A lot of options.

This Usman fight would be massive. Absolutely. Mazadol would be massive. There's history. Winner of Shemai of Diaz, massive fight. Connor McGregor, I hate throwing that name out, but many people continuously bring it up. They bring it up to me. They're like, how is no one mentioning Connor McGregor?

this guy is about to make at least one big bag no matter what in his next fight. But if you are the guy, if the UFC called you right now and said, Brian, you are the only man who could book Leon Edwards' next fight, his first title defense. How would you do it? Is it automatically Usman part three? Are you going just completely wacky here? I hate to be boring as shit, but it is Usman part three. And that's because Camaro is deserving because he had a 15 fight win streak,

because he hadn't lost in the UFC, because he was number one, on Palfour Pond on many lists at this point and because of the over-afflate inflated goat talk. Not everybody historically gets this treatment, like, you know, BJ Penn did after the Frankie Edgar loss made sense. Other times you're sort of like, how the heck is Demetrius Johnson not getting an immediate trilogy against Zahuta? Oh, he's traded to one championship. I mean, weird things happen at times.

But I didn't think it was fair that T.J. Dillishaw had to go the back route after getting upset by Dominic Cruz in such a close split decision that probably should have gone the other way. And he had to go back and work. the back. No, okay, maybe he didn't have the extended resume. Maybe GSP after getting upset by Matt Sarah didn't have the extended resume to deserve an immediate one and had to work the hard way. But God, we're talking about Camaro in the goat talk leading into this fight. He deserves a damn...

Idiots were talking about him in the goat fight. Nobody had an insane adult was talking about him in the goat fight. But had he been solved by decision, had he been stopped early or submitted you go look the better guy won no disrespect to leon i love being inspired the better guy didn't win this you got to go back a first one made dyes in the real world you're dead and i took all your shit like that is he is dead because you can look into the soulless life of that man staring into the bright lights because leon edsword shin separated him from reality great moment great moment do it again Do it again, brother, okay? You got to beat Anthony Joshua twice to take the boxing heavyweight title.

And in rare circumstances in UFC, where they have control over the matchmaking, you still got to do it again. And by the way, if anyone's even trying to make a Mazvedol fight, 46-year-old Dan Henderson got a title fight when he was two and three with three knockouts coming in. And I never thought we would beat that egregious moment, even though we all love some Hendo. Good God, would this be the worst moment if he got the next shot? In fact, I'd rather have Connor right now, Mike Heck, than this Mosvitt all. rematch.

Ched, I don't think you agree with that. But how are you, how are you match? I agree that Mosserol is not involved. Like that's, you just can't do that. That's ridiculous. I think the answer probably is Usman,

even though I hate it because I hate immediate rematches. It's a little bit better, more palatable because it's a trilogy. But I, I've always thought it was stupid. You did the thing. And he didn't, there's no controversy here.

He didn't win a robbery decision. He kicked that man in the face. The difference between a fluke and doing something improbable and awesome is like, who is the guy who took the belt from Michael Chandler because Michael Chandler broke his own foot, stepping back. Red premise. Yeah, that guy. Don't even remember his name because he wasn't actually good.

Yeah, that's a fluke. Whereas Leon Edwards set up and finished a Mortal Kombat finishing move. like that's that's not a fluke at all so i don't like having i don't like essentially punishing somebody being like hey i know you did this thing that nobody thought it was going to happen do it again we don't believe you prove it but that's i mean that's certainly what's going to happen and i i'm okay with it but if i if i had full autonomy to do whatever the hell i want i would make usman fight somebody else or even just wait like he didn't have to fight he can just sit out and wait and after my boy Hamzaa Chmaiov beats the hell out of Nate Diaz,

then I would let him fight because he's actually the best welterweight in the world, and I'm a big fan of letting the actual best guy in the world fight for the belt. You know, UFC tends to reward company men once in a while. There is a company man coming off a win right now. Would it break your heart if it was Colby? I mean, it wouldn't break my heart. I don't think that would happen, and it would just be weird. But I'd be okay with that.

It just seems like the worst of all the options from a business standpoint. Kobe's not going to do nearly what Mossadal or I think Usman would do. All right. I often wonder if it was me and Jedi Goodman right now what kind of traffic we do, okay? But he's not walking through that door. We got the other jed. He has to be tweeting out what's happening right now. He can't do both.

You can't. It's just not possible. One last thing I wanted to just say before. we move on is Demetrius Johnson's name was mentioned. And if there's one good thing outside of just the moment that has come out of it, is that praise is being heaped upon Demetrius Johnson because we've seen Nunes Luz, we've seen Usman Luz, and we are realizing something that Jed says on this program and many other shows all the time.

And I completely agree with this. It is one of the hardest things, if not the hardest thing in all of sports, then to consistently defend that title over and over and over again. And I feel like, at least with the first, male fighters. Maybe Valentina can get there because of the separation. Even she struggled in her last fight. I think Demetrius Johnson's record right now of consecutive title defenses is the Joe DiMaggio 56 game hitting streak. It is Ted Williams hitting 406. It's not being touched, not in modern MMA unless something, I don't think I'll be covering the sport by the time that record is broken.

It's so hard to do. Demetrius is starting to get a little more respect for what he did in the flyweight division before he got unceremoniously traded to one championship and he's making a lot more money. So all at all, probably a good thing for DeBetius Johnson. But UFC 278 created one of the greatest moments. It also provided a final moment in the Octagon for a former champion of the world. And that's where we're heading next. The point for out one goes to, man, I want to give a 10-10 so bad right now, but I'm going to give it to BC. He's on the board. It's one to happen. Yeah. Visitor. Yeah. That's what talking about. This man's out here acting like, like Kamar Usman without pay-per-view points

is going to make more money in his next fight. He sold 13 million flies against England's kind of hot right now, okay? Come on. He's going to be making 40 and 40. He didn't get pay-per-view anymore. I mean, I'm sorry, I love Leon, but his reign is going to look a lot like Nico Montanios. I'm sorry, Jed, you're going to have to deal with this, right?

No, I agree, because Hamzaa Chimaev is the best best wealth weight in the world. So, yeah. If Leon kicked Camaro's head off, Tremayev's going to kill him. I've been saying it for a while, and I feel real confident in that now. When I got a great deal on a great gift at winners,

I started wondering, could I get fabulous gifts for everyone on my list? Like this designer fragrance for my daughter. At just $39.99, how could I resist? This luxurious will throw for my sister, this gold watch for my partner, a wooden puzzle for my niece, leather gloves for my boss?

Ooh, European chocolate for the crossing guard? At these prices, could I find something for everyone at Winners? Stop wondering. Start gifting. Winners find fabulous for less. It's the matchat or the three ensemble Cadocephora that I've been to deniches so much. It's the ensemble. The form of standard and mini-regrouped,

what are open? And the embellage, too beau, who is practically pre-a-donned. And I know that I'd love these offriars, but I guard the Summer Fridays and Rare Beauty by Selena Gomez. I'm just understand. all the ensemble a

gift to find out of Shephora. Summer Fridays Rare Beauty Way, Cepora Collection and other

part of quick. Procurre you these formats and mini, regrouped for a better quality price, online on

on C4PSA or in magazine. Well, let's go to the co-made event because we can talk about that all day but Paul Costa and Luke Rockhold

they battle it out a fight I didn't see any world where it would get out of the first round let alone go the full 15 minutes

but listen was it the prettiest fight ever? No, was it incredibly fun to watch yes, Costa gets the win

Rockhold shows tremendous heart and defeat and then announces his retirement from the sport and as our own Damon Martin reported earlier this week, he's officially notified the UFC. We'll begin with you on this round. Your reaction to the fight five days later, the retirement. And you know what? Let's talk about Luke's legacy a little bit.

Will we have a future, damn they were good on Luke Rockhold? Oh, for sure. I mean, Luke Rockhold was really fun. It's interesting. I wrote about Michael Bissing's reaction this morning, and you know they obviously had all their beef. They squashed it later, but Bisping said what I think is pretty true, it was like, Luke Rockhold has somehow become underrated because his career was very brief, kind of at the tippity top was very brief. His fall was so precipitous, and he was just such an asshole all the middle time through that no, like is really easy to just not like him.

He's like one of the most unlikable guys. It was always very astonishing to me because he should have been a guy who you looked at like superstar potential. Literal Ralph Lauren model good looks on top of one of the best fighters in the world. But his whole personality was just not a thing that people gravitated towards. And so I think he is underrated. And so he will certainly get a damn they were good. This fight was not at all what I was anticipating or expecting. thing. We talked about a lot before him. I thought that this was going to go one of two ways.

Luke gets on top and kills him. Paul Acosta punches him with the left hook because Luke Rockhold does not know how to defend those. Both of those things happened, but neither of the finishes came from it. It was, I said in the post-fight show, and I think I still believe this, it's about as good a way as Luke Rockhold could exit the sport. Because I thought if he was going to lose that fight. It was going to be one of those losses that made me think, ooh, Luke should, Luke should probably go away now. This isn't the best choice for him. But instead, I thought, man, he lost the fight, but he was really competitive after a three-year layoff at altitude against one of the five, seven, ten best guys in the world. Like,

that's, and getting a little older, like, yeah, I was just not a performance I expected from him. He did, he showed a heart, which is not something historically his, career has been defined by if we're being honest. And if he wanted, if he had left that after that loss said, you know, that sucks. It was really difficult. I'm going to go back. I'm going to pick myself back up. I think I still have more to give.

I'm glad I got back in the cage, though. After all the things I overcame, I'm like, cool, I'll watch you next fight. Like, that'll be awesome. Let's see who. Because I think you can beat a lot of guys of middleweight based on that performance. But this is a sport that just eats our dead, like eats our old, kills. them in the most vicious ways possible. And that's going to be one of the better way to walk out. You know, that's a fight of the year candidate. It's not going to win, but it's kind of on the

short list. It was a fun scrap five the night. And a good performance from a guy that, frankly, I didn't expect one from. So, you know, hats off to you, Luke Rockhold. Great career. You see your thoughts. I mean, so on such an unemotional delivery there from Jed. I mean, and, you know, try to categorize Luke Rockhold's tippity top as brief. No, he didn't make any title. I mean, that emotional about Luke Rockhold? He's an asshole. No one's like that.

But he is an asshole. Look, this might be the sweetest moral victory in a loss that I can ever remember in combat sports. And really, the only equivalent on the turn he made, particularly a face turn, is Stone Cold Steve Austin at WrestleMania 13 against Brett Hart. I mean, I could never imagine somebody who he, yes, is not only the biggest asshole. And you can trace back Jed to his millionaire matchmaker episode in which Patty Stanger ripped him a new A-hole for how he treats. treated those chicks. But, you know, to see a guy that good-looking- Not be a piece of shit on that show, too.

Like, I mean, to see it. It's so not difficult to not be a piece of shit. And he couldn't figure it out. He couldn't figure it out. And to see a guy, you know, that good-looking and arrogant, be that great and seem to lose it overnight and then suffer. One violent defeat after another, mixed with layoffs, injuries, feuding with the company.

He could not have been hated more, like you mentioned. And he got back. to a point of of straight love from the fans and some of the hardest sports fans to please by feeding them in a way that it shouldn't have been possible he's not known for that level of recuperative skills and willingness to be that grimy he was against an opponent still in his you know athletic prime who yeah coming off a two-fight with a losing streak but we all kind of predicted he would get a knockout within the first minute and a half and by we all i mean me and my many personalities but the whole point is he completely completely

completely exit there, like, immortal in a way that, like, you just don't see in retirement fights, particularly retirement fights in which you lose. And maybe, you know, I always say the quickest path to Dana's heart is just the willingness to fight anybody at any time and be a company man. He found the other way. Just be willing to no matter what blood, sweat, and tears keep coming back. Even Dana after the fight during a week in which they're publicly fighting about fighter pay. He's like, I'll never say a bad thing about Luke again.

It's almost like he got his pass into that amoral. Mortal, mythical, not the UFC Hall of Fame, because it's not really a real thing, but this area where no fans are going to talk shit about him, probably for a long time. And they shouldn't because at his very peak before, you know, some of his weaknesses cost him that Bisping rematch. He was knocking on the top of the pound for pound along with John Jones, a couple of others. I mean, he was really getting to that point. We know how great he was in strike force in that early run, which was robbed by 2013 Belfort's

spinning superhero attack. But the whole point is this. This is like, I compared it to like, like Kevin Costner and Tin Cup. If you're old enough, you'll get that movie's reference. We're not going to forget this. I don't know if it's fight of the year because it's so unique and weird. Like Nate Landware and David O'Nama the week before,

it was like this emotional schoolyard fight. It was like I've never seen emotions dealt as currency within the fight that willingly or effectively, this was like a throwback to what the UFC used to feel like. People don't realize that if you weren't watching it. What to put in a Nick Diaz fight from 2005 in the UFC. Even the technicians in the game back then had to walk through hell and fight their way into victories before this. Everybody's a mixed martial artist. Everybody's a technical giant.

This was like a throwback. And that all played into like the best possible retirement birthday cake for Luke Rockhold that he gave to us and now the fans are given back to him on the way out. I love that man now. I used to love that guy. Then I hated him. I've always wanted to see his DMs. I mean, just desperately. But now I love him again. And I think it's for the right reasons. And the best part about it, Mike Heck, is he didn't even do that for Dana or the fans. He did it for himself. He had real demons that he needed to exercise. He did that shit, man. I'm proud of you, Luke Rockhold. All right? Send me those DM. This is good stuff right there. Nice. Nice. Selfishly. I genuinely didn't know Luke Rockhold could inspire people like that.

All right. I don't, I just thought he did it because that's that. he's an asshole. Like, it's tough for me to think he was fighting his demons where he just stares Paula Costa down as like, F you and punches him. It's like, yeah, that's just who is right in his core.

But I respect the shit out of that, by the way, because I'm an asshole. I think he was fighting the company. I think he was fighting Dana White in that fight. I think he was fighting those who said he never had a chin and wasn't tough. I think he was fighting Patty Stanger in that fight. Only she's still won.

I will say this. Selfishly, I'm bummed about one thing just for this programming because I would love to have a conversation. But it turns out Paul Cost is still his one fight left on his deal. And we'd have a lot more to talk about right now if what he said at Media Day was actually true. But the cost of free agency talk will unfortunately have to wait. Are we confident he has one fight in this deal?

Did that information come from him? Because that could be entirely untrue. You could have six more. He can follow. Yeah, I think he seemed more sure about having one fight than having no fights. but I do, I know this is tough for you, Jed, but we'll start with BC. I do want to talk about Marab de Walsh, Willie, defeating Jose Al though. BC, I've been very transparent.

I hated this matchup, although was done dirty here, no title shot for him unless something insane happens. But Marab de Wallis really gets the biggest win of his career. BC, what did this victory do for this band and weight division right now? And was Marab's performance overall, was this a bigger win for Murab to? Marab or from Marlon Vera in the grand scheme of things. Wow, that's an interesting. You gave me a lot there. Am I debating, Jed, or you right now on some of those things, some of those comments you made?

I don't think they did Aldo Dirty at all, but here's the deal. In a weird way, DeVos Wheely answered all the questions we had about him whether he should belong to enter this truly elite title picture. And mind you, that may be the deepest division at any point in the history of the sport, which I thought lightweight was, you know, a year ago. And now it is suddenly this. But at the same time, the method in which he won, he didn't actually really answer the questions, meaning if you would have told me before this fight, that Aldo is not only going to control,

but completely take away Marab's Plan A. And he's a fighter who heavily relies on that Plan A. You'd say, okay, Jose's right back in this title picture. That happened. Marab was constantly coming forward, the aggressor with strikes of varying, looping, or straight on technique, and we still didn't learn. Can he strike with an elite striker on the elite level, wait and see as he's getting closer now into this larger title picture?

Can you take away some things from him on what he didn't do to win? Maybe, but I don't think Josie Aldo was done dirty. I think at the end of the day, with the mixture of the altitude, which seems to be a factor in multi-fights, along with being 35 and jacked his shit and cutting down to a smaller weight class late in your career, although ended up having just enough gas in the tank to go three hard rounds being that great defensively with the head movement and take down defense, but he didn't plan enough of that

for offense. So he kind of in a weird way, and he's a legend, God, I love you, the king of Hio. I love you, brother. But he did himself in, in the end. You know, what does this mean to Cheeto? I think Cheeto's going to have to fight Marab next. I think that's what this means to him. At the end of the day, what else do you want to ask him, Rob?

He got his car taken away from him. but he still walked his way to a victory. It got it done. Look at Jose at the end of the day. I mean, am I speaking blast from me here, Jed? I mean, really, you know? I know you're peeking through that hand. Show me what you got.

God, I'm so excited, Jed. Go. It's rare that an opponent comes on. And for any topic, be it small or big, that I disagree with literally every word that came out of their mouth. Because holy shit, you just missed all of it.

I'll start with the most... I'll start with the most egregious one. Lightweight's the best division in the sport. It has been for at least 10 years and it probably will be forever. Banim Wade is really great and really fun, but in no way is this the deepest division that's ever been.

So we'll just pithy that one out. Do you have recede? Joe Zaheldo did get done. Okay. Yeah, I just look at the fighters, the top seven. D lightweights are all really good. Bantamweight has like 40. On to the next one.

Sorry to steal your show name, Mike. I'm just, I'm so kerfuffled right now. Aldo did get boned because he should have been fighting for the title over T.J. Dillershaw. Keep in mind, I'm a dude who doesn't care about steroids and has frequently said that I don't believe that T.J. Dillishaw was on the gas at Bantamoy anyway. Aldo still should have gotten a fight for the title because T.J. Dillishaw probably should have lost to Corey Sanhagen.

So the fact- Jed, Jed, Jed, I mean, not on the gas. He was on all the gas. You either believe everyone's taken or nobody's taken at the end of the day. I mean, come on. I mean, I, in general, believe everybody's taking, but I'm willing to buy his explanation that he didn't take it because, like, the simplest answer is that he probably wasn't juiced at Bantamweight.

I know that people hate that, but, like, they went back and tested his old shit. He was clean. there's a really clear reason why he would have done it for the 125 fight. And also, again, I do not care if he was on the gas or not. I don't give a shit about steroids. Never have. You can't make me. That's besides.

All right. But if there's one name you're going to protect, I mean, Dilleshaw, really? You know, I mean, Coach Sandusky, I don't need a babysitter. Come on. I mean, like, this is, you know, this is, like, that's the guy you point at. Anyway, that's going to make us have this conversation. and it's not the focus, but like, why do you believe that T.J. Dillishaw was on the juice outside of the fact that he tested positive at flyweight and Cody Garbrand said he was a juicer, the same Cody Garbrandt, he knocked out twice. Is that it?

Like, that's the reason. No, there's reasons. I mean, you know, there's a lot of reasons. But I think also it's in an era where everybody was using it. And you're talking about a guy that was, you know, dynamic in some of the qualities that. using what allow you to be ultra and extra dynamic and then got caught using it another weight class it's not like you just discovered it right so it's sort of like

I was just saying it's a long example in that moment not ultimately to your point is you saw it about at their job because you saw it tested them they went back and retested his other ones if you want to say that I'm cool with that I think you saw it's stupid and I'll I'll even go with that but people like me who have a boxing background Jed, we'd never been an award where Usada's good. Do you realize Usada was in boxing before the UFC? Do you realize not one time did they catch somebody until somebody forced them to catch somebody?

And that was Eric Morales against Danny Garcia ahead of the rematch in which he claimed he had tainted beef. All the samples came back positive. And they still let him fight. Usada had been around for all those fights. They didn't bust one single person and now suddenly they're recutable because the UFC picks them up. No. Apparently, a ton of people believe in Usada. Anyway, this is entirely beside the point.

The point is, T.G. Delosha shouldn't get the next title shot because Jose Aldo should have gotten it. Then if you're not going to give Aldo a shot, to have him fight, I would admit that I think Maraub is probably a decent style matchup for him, but to have him do it at altitude is just like the shittiest possible way to go about this. And then Morab proved nothing to me. Brian said that he didn't prove he can handle a striker. He proved he can't. I am extremely confident this man, if you take away the wrestling, all he can do is hug your leg. And that worked very well against 35-year-old Jose Aldo at altitude. And when I say very well, I mean, I still scored the fight for Aldo.

And even upon rewatch, even upon rewatch, I think the best actual score is a draw because that second round, nothing happens. He holds him against the fence for most of the round. And I'm not going to reward that because it's stupid to believe that that is. Attempted strikes. Jose stopped kicking or punching after round one. You can't give. They landed the same number of strikes in the second round. He held it.

In the third round, yes. I scored the third from Rob. He actually effectuated offense. In the second round, he shot endless takedowns, got freaking nowhere, but he has one trick. He has one trick. And to the other side of that,

Aldo couldn't get away from it. I genuinely believe after he watched, the best score for that fight is a draw where the middle rounds of. 10-10. Alder takes the first, Marab wins the third. Like, that's just like, if you're scoring my rules, I'm willing to give it to Marab, but it's also a failure to reward you holding someone's leg for 12 minutes. Okay, but what about effort and intention? And Rots 2 and 3, Jose put it all on defense. I don't know what you do.

Okay, but you got to start, Jed, when there's no offense or damage, you got to start going down the criteria a little bit to find something. You had a Maraubon. was pushing the pace coming forward actually attempting on offense. It's like, look, at the end of the day, I don't admit this much publicly. I had you all Romero three to two over John Jones in person. But you can't complain about that. I'm sorry, not John Jones. Sorry, I'll sign you.

But this might happen because I missed that. But the whole point is, if you're Romero or you're me, you can't complain about it. The guy didn't throw. Okay. So like at the end of the day, Al does not complaining about it. And I'm not calling this a robbery. I never once said it was a robbery. All right, but to score it for him on one.

I'll absolutely score for Al-D. And I got to go back to the well. And how are you saying? Who the shit was at least intending to hit somebody? Marab just held him. He just held him. No, go back and one. He was pushing the pace offensively.

I mean, you got to give it to somebody. It doesn't mean anything. It doesn't mean anything. In the face of nothing? In the face of 100% defense, it's not like he didn't land a strike during that. He's not doing anything, though. It does not matter. If you don't actually hurt the me.

In comparison to somebody who literally did nothing, he's doing something. But I do want to get your, you're so adamant that he had to have gotten this next title shot in what I consider the deepest most bottlenecked division we'd seen in some time. Why? Dude, at the point that Dillishaw coming back after that time away, at this age, fighting a Sanhaken who was right there knocking on the title door, and whether you, I don't know where you ended up on your scorecard at the end of that fight, but why does that automatically trump and Alda, who had three very good wins? but was coming directly off a title fight. He didn't deserve coming off a loss in which they allowed him to get rabbit punch for a half hour until they stopped it. I like the win streak. It was great.

But how does that automatically ahead of where TJ is right now? Because he had three wins and TJ lost his fight to Corey Sandhagen. I officially didn't. Okay. So you're playing that car. That's the basis of the argument. He has one very questionable win whereas Aldo had three very good wins. And so I think that should have been.

Yeah, but when you get somebody in that that's in the top two, three or four there that are that are ready to fight for the title next, I mean, they could have brought him back and fought for the title. It would have been grimy. I would have essentially the number one contender. That's the thing. They gave him essentially the number one contender and he won. And he was. I mean, he won, but he did. Like, he won in an ugly way.

Like, I have, I don't think it is like the most egregious thing that this sport has ever done. But I absolutely think Jose Aldo deserved a title fight over T.J. Dillishaw. I understand why they just had one, though. He had just had one. And it went disastrously. He had three fights since he just had one. The deepest division in the history of the sport that was hijacked for a year while we waited out the DQ gate. It was hijacked for a year.

It was already bottlenecked. I mean, are you kidding me? Oh, man. All right. Listen, listen. I got to take control here. We're already like overtime here. But that's okay.

This is a fun battle. We're going to turn the page. We're going to talk about another. big moment from this past weekend. Take some deep breaths. The point for round two goes to it goes to Jed because he's right.

Aldo deserve the title. Oh, wow. Also lightweight's better than Bantam weight. BC, don't worry. 18 months ago it was. Believe me, it was. It was. But, you know, they got old.

They all got old. You're right. It was. It still is. Now, the top of the lately division is squatting on shitty rankings. All right. But you're playing,

you're really playing the hardcore card of BC. see if you go back between rankings 50 and 70, it's deeper. That's not what people are talking about. They're talking about the top 10 plus the old celebrity names and the guys who have next in the top 10. That's really who you're talking about. I'm not talking about world global rankings.

By the way, for bringing in World Global Rankings. Celebrity names than Lightweight? Is that what you're telling me? What are you talking about? No, that's not what I'm telling you. I'm telling you how you make this comparison of which the decision, which division actually is deeper at the moment, is more about the top 10 plus the aging celebrity.

You can make big fights with plus the five guys who are knocking on the door next. You can't base your argument on numbers 50 through 70. And if you were, by the way, Bannon-Wa-Wa-Witt will still win, Jed. Because go to Belator, one of the deepest divisions outside the UFC possible at Bannon-Wa, as does many of the other promotions. I'll stipulate, I'll even be happy to stipulate on your terms that it's the top 10 plus the celebrities. You really want to go the top 10 plus the celebrities lightweight versus Bain-Bel-Way? I said, celebrities plus the guys who are right there on the 10 to 15.

have next. You basically group that whole. Let's do it. You want to do that at light? Oh, oh, hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. We might have to change the final question, but we'll move on here. All right. Let's head to the wonderful world of BKFC. I know that's what everybody here is waiting for. BKFC is getting after it. Another card this weekend in Albuquerque. We got Christine Faria versus Taylor Starling for the women's flyway title, John Dodson versus Ryan Benoitz, both making their BKFC debuts from the UFC and MMA. But this past Saturday, they took the show to London, and it was headlined by an intriguing matchup, at least on paper, between Mike Perry and Bellator Welterweight, Michael Venham Page.

BC, let's start with you. I know you've talked a lot about this fight, some viral clips. Five rounds were just not enough to settle the score. They went to an overtime round, and Perry goes out there and wins the sixth round. It's a big win for Mike Perry. He's 2 in the BKFC ring. He's got a triller win under his belt. what was your biggest takeaway from this fight and Perry's win?

My biggest takeaway is without question that the MMA and boxers that look at BKFC as a potential, like Page Vanzan, which was a surprise, a potential free agent home while they still got it, right? For everyone else, it's the last stop on the highway, as I always say, before retirement, the last people that'll pay you to fight more or less. That's disrespectful, but you get my point. To serve somebody to go there in their prime, and in this case, Michael Page on a one-off and a shocker of an announcement that I was four. I'm still four, by the way.

But you do have to know what you're getting into, and you do have to realize that some fighters, and it turns out Mike Perry is on the top on the list of this, are just made for this type of grimy pro-fight equivalent. I talk to, like you guys, many pro-boxers and pro-MMA guys that are stars in the moment, former champions, you know, whatever. And a lot of times I bring up BKFC off, you know, camera to them or whatever. And every single once I'd go there tomorrow.

and, you know, I'd box circles around those guys. They wouldn't touch me. Look, in some cases, that may be true, but this really is such a different sport. I've never protested to love BKFC. I do think it's a little too gnarly at times, but I respect that there is a skill set and a makeup within somebody that gives them an advantage.

And just because you can control from distance as a boxer or in Michael Venham-Page's case with the threat of what he can do from his waist down, really tends to open up the door for him to land those spectacular shots. And this fight, after being down early and dropped, he did actually end up landing those spectacular shots, yet it still wasn't enough because he fought a dude who's made for this. And that was an error on MVP's fault, not only for kind of overlooking Perry, I think I got to call out many of the MMA community, too, who were looking at this going, oh, God,

MVP's going to destroy him. It's just not the same. And I think the way the MVP didn't fight with a jab and sort of allowed Perry to keep running up to his porch. and getting in, you know, at the end, look, it was split draw, went to overtime, it was all, you know, tacky and gimmicky and fun, whatever,

and it is what it is. But if you're going to do this and you're not doing this because this is the only phone that's calling, you know, you got to be careful because not only going to get carved up and scarred badly, there is a type that this is perfect for. And the one thing I do like about BKFC, it's weird. I don't love how the fighting sometimes

is a little too grimy for my tastes of competition. but I do love that the grimyness mix for some really fun characters outside of the cage. Have you guys been watching this female division they have? I don't even know what weight class it is, but it's like Britain Hard and Taylor Starling and all these other, you know, washed out UFC types, but they got personalities and it's, it's like a reality show. It's like pro wrestling. It's like my hometown, right?

I mean, it's trashy as shit. If you're going to come here and chase that bag, as you guys like to say, and you still got a fighting pulse, you bet. or think twice because you know you'll get a little on you right you know what i'm saying you guys know what i'm saying you guys went to college you know exactly what i'm saying um MVP got away on them and that's the price you pay for chasing that bag i guess yeah i will say this just just to add to what you said about bkfc i covered bkfc 19 that was the page van's aunt rachel ostovich card one of the best fight weeks in my life it was just and the event was just ridiculous we had a bunch of influencers

boxing each other with gloves on, which I still don't understand why that happened on a BKFC car. We have people jumping into the ring. We had people yelling at fighters and confronting them from the crowd. I mean, it was just the best. But Jed, what was your biggest takeaway

from this fight? Hey, look, Brian redeemed himself. I agree with most of what he said. I don't, I'm not a huge BKFC guy, not because it's too gnarly for me, just because it's not my particular cup of tea. Right? I don't know. But I agree with them in that it is, it is a very different skill set.

I think people are starting to figure that out now, or at least hopefully they are. Like, it's not just the same. It's not a total one-to-one. And they should have figured that when Pauli Maniani lost. Like that should have just been like, oh, that dude actually knows how to box. And he did not win without things. It's obviously very different. Also just, I think the most important thing to say, because it hasn't been mentioned.

mentioned before. I'm not a guy who loves MVP. I, in fact, think it's incredibly funny that he got robbed by Logan Storley and just lost to Mike Perry, both in his home, like both in England. I think that's incredibly amusing. He, in fact, got robbed at BKFC. Like, very clearly, he did not get awarded a knockdown in what was clearly a knockdown that would not have made it a draw.

Had he gotten his extra point for the knockdown? He would have won that. It would have never gone to overtime where he was too cast out to win. I'm not that sad about it because it's the height of comedy that he just dismissed Mike Perry on the MMA hours. Just like, oh, dude, we're in different leagues. And Mike Perry's like, you think you better than me. He's like, yes, yes, I do. We're not the same.

And he immediately gets dropped by him. Like, that's the funniest thing. And certainly Mike Perry winning this is the funniest of the possible outcomes. and since I don't consider BKFC like the height of combat, I'm super in for the funniest outcomes being the things that happened. But it just should be known

that Mike Perry, like Mike Perry, good on him, incredibly tough, super durable. Dude does not know how to quit. But he should have lost that fight by, in the real world. But, you know, that's not what happened. And now we're living in a world where Luke Rockhold is a baby face,

Mike Perry is a baby face. Paul Costa in some ways as a baby face. What a weird, wacky week it has been. But last thing on this, Jed, he wants to fight Jake Paul. And he said this for a while now. Those two guys have history. They sparred together. It doesn't look like it's happening next since Jake is apparently fighting in October

against a professional boxer. I have to say, Jen, I'm intrigued by this idea. I'm intrigued by it. I can't pinpoint why, but color me interested in Jake Paul versus. is Mike Perry, even though I think Jake Paul would win that fight. Is that a fight that you would be interested in watching sometime next year, perhaps, maybe sometime in the future? Is that on your bingo card at some point that we're going to see these two guys fight and

do you care to see it? I don't really care because I mostly don't care about Jake Paul. I've seen enough. Like, I had a vague curiosity. And at first, as you remember, I had no curiosity. In fact, was very, very anti at all. and then it kind of won me over but I've mostly seen what I need to see from Jake Paul

like he's he's not bad at boxing like he is not good at boxing but he's certainly not an awful boxer and him continuing to box MMA fighters has if he continues to box MMA fighters I will pay attention because I will be forced to by the terms of my career but beyond that I don't really care and similarly I don't really care if he boxes

boxers because he's not good at boxing. So he's, he's just run his course for me for the most part. That being said, I also don't think this fight will happen because he is very clearly going to fight Nate Diaz after Nate loses to Hamzot. Like that's just the next thing that will happen. And then once he fights Nate, it feels like fighting Mike Perry is a big step backwards, but I guess maybe. But in like in the vacuum or whatever, Mike Perry is a dude who knows how to sell a fight. God. his work with Ariel on the MMA hour was incredibly funny leading up to that bout. He's just, he's a dude that if you give him a live, Mike, something good or something terrible,

but certainly something amusing is going to happen. And you put that against, you know, against Jake Paul. Jake Paul is frequently complaining about having to carry the promotion. Mike Perry would do his part, certainly in that regard. So it's not the worst idea I've ever heard. but it has limited interest for me. BC, I saw you. I saw you at the summer.

The worst idea ever. This is the best idea of all time. I mean, it's probably not realistic, obviously, because Jake is mostly looking to get some of that boxing cred. It was in,

you know, is he going to come back against Rockman Jr. a second time or I don't know exactly. And obviously, I have connection. I work for Showtime,

so I profit from him fighting in many ways. But I get the sentiments of what Jed's saying about, like something, doesn't need to happen to regain that spark and interest level and it's going to come in the danger and quality of opponent, but it's also going to come in another personality. Like, we look back, maybe the Woodley rematch because it was a late replacement didn't get us fired up. But like the

first fight, that promotion was incredible. It's like what you're saying, Mike, about being a BKFC. If it, in this category of not real combat sports, okay, I don't mean not real in that it staged, but I mean not elite level MMA or boxing, which this celebrity box. era is. There are bigger fights that Jay could make, and I still think, even though I don't want it at all, Mike Tyson's probably the biggest fight he can make, and that any combination of Nate, Connor, you know, Anderson Silva, even I think is a big fight, could all be big. But the fight that would win, you know, my dirtbag hard, God, it's Mike Perry.

That's Mike Perry's Super Bowl. And he, you know, he was probably going to get cut by the UFC, although it seemed gray. Did he get cut or did he leave on his own terms? But like him moving to chase the bag here while he still has some juice. left, this is the biggest thing he can be a part of in that fight week would be unbelievable. Mike Perry unleashed, like beyond the UFC Fight Night Main Event level unleashed, is a, is a, is a genius level of unintentional comedy that mixed with unpredictability that is, you know, it's a guilty pleasure, of course.

But, you know, I've had Mike famously, you know, tell me to fuck off when I asked a question about his ex-wife and screamed and yelled, that means. and threatened to kill me. And then the next time I have him on, we're like, best buds. He's the superhero of this weird, creative fetish, almost real fights, but not really, but kind of real fights at the end of the day.

And I want him to get his movie really badly. I don't think he can win, though, because that size difference is pretty big. Like, Jake's a big boy. But, yeah, I mean, wouldn't your bastard heart, Mike, heck, be into that? You would. I know you would. Oh, yeah.

The crime is wing a lot. I know. I'm way more into the mind. Mike Tyson one. That's where my dirt back are. When you said, I was like, okay, I'd watch that. I would, I would tune in to watch Jake Paul versus Mike Tyson. I hate myself for saying that, but I would, that wouldn't, that one.

I don't want it at all, but it'd be the biggest one you can make with Jake Paul. We would. It would get every single casual out of their, out of their combat retirement and come back and watch that. Without five, five, six, eight. What's the pay-per-view ceiling limit? I know you gave me that look, Mike Heck, like I just, you know, like, I just, raised you, you know,

$4 trillion. But sells three million pay-per-views. Is that three? I know five, six, seven, eight is getting crazy, but is that, that's a three,

three is all freaking lot. That's a three. That's a big ass fight. And the streaming era, that's a big ass fight. Three is maybe a high. Three is the floor. I feel two for sure.

And I think three is in, in play. People are sicker than you think, guys. People are way sicker than you think. They really are. I would get so many people. texting me about that.

Like so many people who don't give a shit about fighting would be like, hey, is this thing happening? What's this about? Yeah, they should make that fight. We solved it. We did it. Way to go, everybody. There it is.

This is why you tune in to BTL. Well, that was BKFC. We'll see what they have in store for us on Saturday in Albuquerque. Apparently, John Jones is going to be there to take it all in. But in around two weeks, it is UFC 279. And there is an interesting addition to that lineup that very few people saw coming. So let's discuss that. The point for round three goes to,

it goes to BC for solving all of our problems and putting a lot of money in people's pockets and costing us a lot of money. Money gladly spent. That doesn't cost us money. That costs us our souls, Mike. Let's be real honest. If I could get a Dillishaw urine test,

can I return round two? Can I turn the scoring back on that one? Hey, listen, if you ever watch a show, you know that my points don't mean any. anything. So. Black Friday is here at IKEA and the clock is taking on savings you won't want to miss. Join IKEA family for free today and unlock deals on everything from holiday must-haves to cozy at-home essentials, all the little and big things you need to make this season shine.

But don't wait. Like leftovers at midnight, our Black Friday offers won't last. Shop now at IKEA.ca.ca. slash Black Friday. IKEA, bring home to life. Hit pause on whatever you're listening to and hit play on your next adventure. This fall get double points on every qualified stay. Life's the trip. Make the most of it at Best Western. Visit bestwestern.com for complete terms and conditions. In the midst of the reaction.

Oh, yeah, I'm Drew Carey up in here right now. So in the midst of the reaction to the crazy end of UFC 278, Dana White just randomly announces at the post-fight press. conference that at UFC 279, headlined by the aforementioned Hamzat Shmaa versus Nate Diaz fight. Tony Ferguson is on the card. He's returning to 170, and he's fighting the leech, Li Jingliang. Jed, there's a lot of questions with this fight for a number of reasons, but what is your reaction to this?

What is your biggest question to the UFC and its matchmakers in putting this one together in around 16 days from right now? This fight sucks ass. I'm not a big Tony guy I think anyone who's watched this program I shit on him all the time but like I don't I just don't

I don't know what the purpose of this fight is I am not looking at the UFC's rankings is Li Zhang Ling or Li Zhang Ling ranked in their welterweight division it wouldn't surprise because I know he had a ranking at some point I just don't

I get why he's taking the fight Tony Ferguson big name even coming. off four straight losses, most of them really, really brutal. I get him taking the fight, but this just doesn't feel like a winnable fight for Tony. I don't, even if he does, it's not like a top 10 guy, so he's not like an immediate title contender at Welterweight. Like, I just don't know who, I don't know who this fight is for.

Who is waking up and like, hell yeah, Elkakuwis versus the leech, let's go. Like this fight screams to me They just didn't know what the hell else to do And they were really trying to put some juice behind 279 Because it's actually the worst fight card I think I've seen in like five years It's the worst pay-review event in a long time So they were just trying to give it something else

But like I don't I don't know Because I don't know the particulars I don't know if Tony really wanted to move up to welterweight But like the Dan Hooker fight Dan Hooker was calling for that That fight made a lot more sense to me because that's at least a winnable fight for Tony and it's a fight in his actual weight class.

This fight feels like he is just going to get obliterated because I don't think the leech is like a great, great fighter, but he's very good one. He is going to be much bigger than Tony Ferguson and he's pretty good at doing things that will hurt Tony Ferguson who I have no faith or confidence in at this point in time. So like I just don't know what, I don't know who this is for. You are not building

you're not building some new star off Tony's back And even if Tony wins You're not putting him into the positions you would hope for For him Like I Stephen Thompson would have made a lot more sense to me If you're going to put him in a Walterweight fight Like this just feels

It really just feels like they were just like I don't know Tony Tony's willing to fight here Who will do it? Delete sure Go somebody make this card Slightly better because we're trying to to make fans not realize we're selling them an actual snuff film for 7499

at USC 279. That's what they're doing, man. That's a public institution. They are selling you a snuff film because there ain't shit else on this card worth dying. Well, BC, I don't know how you're going to top the snuff film line. I'll tell you what.

I'm at it. Now I actually do know how Leon Edwards feels, at least at the start of round five, because he just, you know, Jed just nailed that in just about every single case. The question that he asked, which he didn't have an answer, is who is this fight for? This fights clearly for Tony Ferguson. And at this point, that's the real dilemma. Look at it.

Do I love this fight? No. Do I think Tony has more potential to get hurt badly than he does to redeem himself in some fresh start type way? Absolutely. But let's be honest here. Not only is he a legend, not only is he getting the fan, not that it matters, but the biggest fan reaction we've ever seen from him, he feels like he's done enough corporate guy, tough as shit stuff where it hasn't equaled the payout in terms of financials. You know, you hear the complaints from him, and he might be right. He came back from injuries at sickening paces and would fight anybody at any freaking time.

And the reality is within the company, he's earned this right out of reinvention. And, you know, it reminds me him winning tough and the well-weight been to move up here. He used to move up to light heavyweight, it seems more than this. But, you know, they give him this chance to a lot, back pay him for all he was deserved. You know, things didn't go his way luck-wise and timing-wise. And then he's taken some Britons. But as much as I love the idea of Wonderboy, I think that's the matchmaking he should have moving forward. give him another old name, make a fun fight.

And in this case, you're right. This card sucks, and they're putting this out here to attract people, but they're going to attract themselves to another knockout loss. And I hate saying that because I love that. I mean, I freaking love that guy. You may not have an emotional connection to any fighters jet or maybe anyone else beyond that, but I love this man. I love a lot of fighters.

I just never was a Tony guy. Like, I just never did. Never stuck for me. Most of my favorite fighters compete at 115 pounds, but that's more of a personal reference. Okay, so I, let me, let me just go back to BC real quick. My initial reaction to this was twofold. One was, okay, we need to try to do something here to get people to want to actually spend $75 on this card.

But the other reaction I had was this is clearly a backup plan for the main event. If something happens, Hamzat's had issues getting over with travel and things like that. So to me, this was like, okay, Worst case scenarios that Tony Ferguson is going to fight on this card. It's got to be against Lee Jingleong. But if something does happen, guess who's getting the bump? It's Tony, and we get a Nate Diaz, Tony Ferguson main event instead. And let's be clear.

Do we deserve that? We might actually deserve that, right? They deserve that. It's not a bad idea. Like, it's a great backup plan in case you might have to get over for some reason. And the best part is that UFC has obviously set up Nate Diaz here, as we've all talked about in our shows, ad nauseum to fail on the way out,

which is how you do cut through a business. But imagine if this happened, and then he ends up fighting Tony, and they put on an old guy, blood and guts war, and Tony, Nate, I'm sorry, gets the win and walks out a bloody hero.

I mean, he would go into that Jake fight you're talking about shining. You know what I mean? Like, that'd be an incredible turnaround for the real fans, you know? Yeah.

The unvaccinated ones. Yeah. And just to add to the backup talk, the one thing I don't want to see, the one thing that the third thought I had was, well, what if Nate just says, FUFC, I'm not fighting? And then we get the worst case scenario, Shama and Tony.

I don't want to see that. Please, please, for the love of God. No chance. Look, I am pro putting Tony on the card. I think that having him as this backup makes all the sense in the world. But it's not like, Tony is the most bulletproof guy when it comes to making the walk. So, like, he's not even the safest backup that's ever been.

So just why is he against the Leach? Like, why just the Steven Thompson fight? Like, that fight, then Thompson can step in as, like, you have two backups at work because no one's going to give a shit about the Leach versus Nate Diaz if, like, something happens and that's what we have to go. That's going to be just awful from a sales standpoint. I just don't, like, I want to. Tony Ferguson needs to do fun things if we're going to have them around.

And I don't think the leeches have fun. Like, Stephen Thompson's maybe not that fun, but at least makes more sense because he's still like a top 10 welterweight or whatever. Like, really, honestly, Tony Ferguson should be fighting Vicente Lucke. I know Lucke coming off a loss, like, at the timeline probably doesn't match up. But that fight's at least a banger. Like, that fight's dope. No, no. No, that's still, give him the fun old guy fight.

Look, Tony's going to get got one way. or another, Brian. Like, that's just where we're right. He's dying the next time in. Let's sacrifice him on the altar of excitement and not the leach who is not, like, he's not unexciting. He's just not whatever. And to be fair, on our earlier debate, Jed, there's no shortage of old, exciting, formerly

great fighters in this lightweight division because Bannamway passed it by recently. And it's no, you know, it's no shame. I mean, it's no disrespect, you know. I, look, I totally agree. Most of the lightweight top 10 shouldn't be. there, but the dudes who are going to replace them are all hitters. They're hammers. That's Luke Thomas would say they're hammers.

Yeah, you're right. You're right. All right. I don't know who wins these anymore. Mike, I don't know. Is there a winner here? I mean, I don't feel like a winner. Listen, listen, I'm not going to dictate anything.

But last thing I want to talk about is, and I just want to say that I've reached out about this today, it is still not done from the conversations I've had. But Kevin Holland is saying he's fighting Daniel Rodriguez on this card. And I like this fight. And it would be a nice addition to this. but it's not done yet. And maybe it gets done soon and we get it on the card. But BC, how much of a jolt does this give the card?

Like, I don't think it does a whole lot, but how much of a jolt does this fight give the card if it is in fact booked on it? Not on the front door in terms of, you know, adding pay-per-view buys or anything like that. It'd still be a weak card from the, you know, the marketing to the mainstream. But, God, this fight is awesome.

It would be incredible for not only the real fans who would be fired up to see which guy, really kind of starts to make that forward leap in the upper, upper direction of this division. And momentum-wise, you know, sometimes it takes a fight like this and suddenly you got four or five bangers in a row of crazy knockouts or crazy back-and-forth or guys rubbing bloody faces over each other or, you know, yelling, fuck you as they throw a left hand.

Yeah, this is fire. But this, I mean, this card kind of sucks. I mean, Jed's not wrong. This card sucks. We need a few more of these. Jed, how much of a difference does this one make for you? I mean, the fight's really good. So that's cool.

I'm looking at Wikipedia right now, and it has 16 bouts for this. So it includes the D-Rod Kevin Holland fight. So in the aggregate, by adding yet another fight, it might bring it down because 16 is just an ungodly number of fights. Yeah, I don't think that's right. I have to hope that some of these get moved or something. but I mean you cannot disagree with that matchup like that matchup maybe there's something better if you're you know a Kevin Holland guy because Daniel Rodriguez is one of those guys who is really really good and probably doesn't people don't know about it yet but I mean this fight rules it's it's going to be 15 minutes or less of of dope shit happening yeah it looks like there's 13 on the card currently so that would make it 14 unless this is on there which 13 and so it's not announced to about on on the wiki page though yeah topology has 12 this would be 13 and that's a fine number

and they should probably add another fun fighter too but let's move on the point for round four goes to it goes to jed snuffy mishu it is two to two this is turning into MVP versus uh storely very quickly very quickly all right yes this is the mike perry MVP MVP sudden victory round. We like to call it the knockout round here. And what we do is we ask one question. Neither of these gentlemen know about it. But I think if you've partaken in this program throughout,

I think there's only one way to go with this. And that's where we're going to go. Each participant will have 60 seconds to give their response, to state their side. And then, and only then, will we go to the peeps. And the peeps will vote in the poll. And we will decide the winner. We'll bring on Mr. 3024 E. Casey Lyden to come in.

and read the final decision. So Jed, you are the man coming off of victory. You have the prerogative here. Do you want to go first, or are we doing Price's Right style, pass it on over to BC? I'll pass it on over because I'm excited to rebuttal his bad arguments. Okay. BC, we go to you.

And listen, this was not the question that I had in line, but we're just going to shift gears here because you guys have made this interesting. I want to give you each one more minutes to talk about it. You are on Team Band and wait. Jed is on team lightweight. Mr. Bannonweight, why are you correct? Why are you right and why is Jed terribly wrong?

We'll put one minute on the clock and your time will start right now. Because it's just deeper, that much more deeper and exciting at the moment. I think because although the lightweight division is recharging, which was necessary when this aging group of McGregor-Fergens, Porriers, Chandler's even, are getting to this point. It needed a recharge. that recharge is happening slower. Bannam weight right now in their prime already has,

five, six, seven guys who all, if they won the title tomorrow, you'd be like, yeah, well, I kind of saw that come in, mixed in with returning veterans like Dillishow, feels like he's been away forever. I mean, even Mr. Faber coming back. Dom Cruz's making another one. Jose Aldo moving down to wait. They didn't come in here to just make old guy fights.

They made important ones. Don't forget even Faber when he got stopped by Jan was probably that win away from fighting for the title. You have kind of everything you would ever want. in a celebrity division, and you've got a guy, you know, LeBron in the making, a guy who could have next in Sean O'Malley, who's getting to the front of that line quicker. And obviously, it went over Piotrion,

could allow him to just straight kick the door in and get the next chance. This is the division. And that's why you just recently have seen, and I think you will continue to see a hot potato of the belt. That's comparative to the only time a division was ever this good historically beyond the one Jed's talking about. And that's light heavyweight some 15 years ago. When it not only passed around like a hot potato as John Jones was growing armpit hair,

it passed around between legends, Hall of Famers. And that's where we're at right now, Bannonweight. Lightweight, it's all your favorite fighter's favorite fighter, right? But they're all like 36 and it's two of the last three. And that's just the reality of it right now. This is like, you know what, for a battle this immense, so entertaining, so fun. This is going to be like the final battle in eight mile where we're going to put 90 seconds on the clock instead. This has a Griffin Bonner one feel right now, right?

Just two just factory town rejects here going at it. I love it. This is changing BTL forever. So, Jed, you get a few extra seconds here if you would like to use them. You are on team lightweight. You are defending lightweight as the premier division, the Cadillac division in the UFC and in the sport, if we're being honest. So one minute plus on the clock, go. I have a lot of things to respond to and then I'll make my case.

The first, calling Sean O'Malley a LeBron-esque person is maybe the most egregious thing that's ever been said on this program. And that's coming from me who said a lot of egregious shit on this program. But you want to talk about, ooh, Bannonweight has like five guys. If they won the belt, you might be like, oh, yeah, that dude. Do the same of lightweight, my guy. Haffael-Fiziv. Yeah, if that dude wins the belt, that's it. Sick. Sarukian, Gamrod.

My boy, Islam's about to take the belt. Like, no shortage of up-and-comers rising. Talk about the old guys at Lightweight. Yeah, absolutely there are some of those. Frank Yedger's still hanging around in the top 15, along with Dominic Cruz. Like, they're old people at Banerweight as well. The difference is Lightweight is so much deeper. There's so many more of them.

And you know how I know that? Because half of the Lightweights had to move up to 170 because they couldn't make in their own division because it was impossible. You've got guys like Benny Darius on an eight-fight winstreet and not even sniff in a title fight because it's too many human beings going on. Gilbert Burns was also ran at 155, one of the best welterweights in the world strictly because he stopped cutting weight

because he couldn't make it because the division is that damn deep. You know, Mike, I got to admit something. There's no disrespect to Bannonweight, which is the second best division in the sport. And it's awesome. But lightweight's where it's at? I don't say this easily. His argument right now is better.

It is better. I know because I gave that argument 18 months ago when I was lauding how great the lightweight division actually was. And the only difference between those hammers that are coming on, like you mentioned, is all your hammers are in the 10 to 15 ranking, about to have next portion of their career. We have abandoned weight, they're all in the top five and most of them have already won the title already. I mean, you know, Jan had it. Al Joe's got it.

San Hagan's been right friggin there. I mean, there are the right here right now, and the legends, and the hammers and the, I mean, it's just, it does,

you know, I don't really believe that we're doing that. I mean, it's entertainment. I hope the people like it, but I can't even believe we're having this argument.

I truly can. I mean, he rebuttal, you rebuttal. People just love Bannonweight because it's new. And so they, they're tired.

It's the same way that LeBron or Tom Brady, they don't win MVP every year, because everybody's like, I'm tired of it. Michael Jordan lost the MVP to Charles Barkley because everyone's like, it's really boring that he's the best guy forever. That's what this is.

That's what the whole Bannon Way thing is. It's boring that $155 is the division. And so they want to get behind the new hotness. And Bannon Way's hot. Don't get me wrong. It's dope division. It just ain't 155. I'd be like, that was cute.

But the Jordan debate about people being bored was actually 97 when Carl Malone won it in his first in a three year, of two in a three-year run. uh, the Barclay actually deserved it, leading the sons to the finals, losing four to two to the Bulls. And he only was that great because he was in Barclone with Jordan the summer before. And for the one time in Berkeley's career, he went all in. So, you know, I mean, look, I love lightweight. It's the third best division in the game today.

It really is because women's straw weights always on fire. Okay, it's always, it's always the best division to watch outside of Bannumweight, always. Okay. Thank you. Uh, I feel like McNeil, Lair, right now, but we have to move on. Get your votes in the... Longest final round in history.

Yeah, well, actually, it's the second. It's the second longest final round. Jed, you were a part of the official longest round. You and Aaron Bronstetter. I think that was like a two-hour show. In fact, we had to actually film that in multiple segments because I had to leave and pick my child up from something and then come back and record the rest of it.

That was pre-live. That was a pre-live show, but that was a great episode if you want to go back to the archives and watch it. So cash your votes. Cast your votes. I'm not sure what's going to happen as far as programming this weekend. I know we got heck of a morning tomorrow at 10 a.m. on the Twitter spaces.

AK and I are going to try to do something for onto the next one. Since we don't have any UFC cards to match make for, we might just do like an AMA or something fun. So get your questions in whatever you want us to talk about. And we'll talk about them. And we got one championship. We got BKFC on Saturday in Albuquerque. I mean, there's combat sports.

There's just no UFC. which means some of the programming sort of goes to the wayside. Do we have one championship? Didn't half their fighters like miss weight? Hey, bro, KSI's fighting twice on Saturday, okay? So, I forgot about the KSI doubleheader. Thank you. Sorry.

I just lost BTL by not mentioning that. So Casey, do we have enough votes tabulated or do I still need to stall for a few more minutes? I think we have a winner. I think we're good to go. All right, there's Mr. 3024 E. Casey Liden, producer extorted air, and he's going to announce the winner to take the heat off my shoulders. Casey, have that on, my man. So we had three options.

You could go winner Jedmishu, winner Brian Campbell, or a draw. Ooh, we got a special draw in this one. With 10% of the votes coming in for a draw. Damn, I was hoping for a draw. That would have been fun. But with a strong 64% of the votes coming in for the winner, Mr. Brian Campbell. Thank you. Brian Campbell, BC gets it done.

The people have spoken. Brian Campbell comes on the show. It delivers the goods. Although I thank Jed for being able and daring, this did look a lot like Anderson Silva, Chris Leibon. If we're going to be really honest, right? You know, I mean, it was, it was spectacular, right? But I'm happy to be here. Thank you.

Awesome. Jed, your response, your reaction to the peeps. They sometimes take your side. Sometimes they let you down. The Drake Riggs matchups really stick out of my mind when it comes to that. But your reaction to the peeps? Yeah, the peeps here. My only issue is that Brian's just very wrong about Bannonway,

and that's probably where a lot of it came from. Because I recognize the people hate that. The people don't like the truth. Nobody likes to eat their vegetables. They want the dessert. And that's what abandoned weight is right now. It feels like a tasty treat. They don't like broccoli.

And I'm just bringing you the hard facts, the good for you broccoli of the lightweight division. But that's okay. Your tasty treats have more brain damage than my tasty treats. All right. I mean, come on. Yeah, that's why they're better. Much more fun to have.

brain damage. Oh, man. What a show. BC, where can we find your great work? Where can we find you? When will you be appearing on our screens next? Thank you so much. I co-hosts a fabulous podcast called Morning Kombat with Luke Thomas,

Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, 11 a.m. Eastern on the old YouTube's there. But beyond that, you can catch my work at CBS Sports. I know what you're saying. You guys, guys know anything about MMA? I'm a boxing guy. All right, it's cool. But thanks for having me on. What a time.

What a time to be alive, all right? You know what I mean? It's great. What? This is great. Indeed. What a time to be live. Casey, you could hit the exit music. I will try to hit the post like an absolute savage here. But we are done. This has been everything we hoped for and more. It was like buying a Toyota in the 1990s. So thank you very much for joining us.

What an episode. I don't know how we're going to top this next week, but we're going to find a way to do so. Nudity. Thank you. Nudity would be the start. Yeah. No, we're not going to do that. We need the monetization. So for Jedbush, for Brian Campbell, for E. Casey Liden on the ones and two. the iconic voice of Esther Lynn takes you home. I am Mike Kek. We'll see you back. Once again next week on Between the Links.

Good night, everybody. Love you guys. This has been Between the Links, an M.A Fighting Production on the Vox Media Network. Banda Waits Rule! Wow, we got the real Esther. This is great.

Hi, Master. You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network.