MMA Fighting - BTL | Mike Perry's Next Move, Tsarukyan Shines, Dana White Blasts PFL Deal, Jon Jones Fires Back w/ Luke Thomas

Episode Date: December 7, 2023

This past Saturday delivered a fun and chaotic day in the world of MMA and combat sports as Arman Tsarukyan and Mike Perry ended UFC Austin and BKFC 56 with main event stoppages. With both men vying for big fights next, where will Tsarukyan and Perry go from their big wins? On an all-new edition of Between the Links, the panel attempts to answer those questions following the latest offerings from the UFC and BKFC, discuss what 2024 could look like for Tsarukyan, and Perry's future as the face of bare-knuckle fighting. Additionally, topics include Dana White's response to PFL's acquisition of Bellator, Donn Davis' answer the next day, Jon Jones reacting to Tom Aspinall's call for Jones to be stripped of the heavyweight title, UFC Vegas 83 this Saturday headlined by Song Yadong vs. Chris Gutierrez, who has the most to gain on the card, and much more. Host Mike Heck moderates the matchup between MMA Fighting's Jed Meshew and Morning Kombat's Luke Thomas. Follow Mike Heck: @MikeHeck_JR Follow Jed Meshew: @JedKMeshew Follow Luke Thomas: @lthomasnews Subscribe to MMA Fighting Check out our full video catalog Like MMA Fighting on Facebook Follow on Twitter Read More: http://www.mmafighting.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Support for this show comes from the Audible Original, the downloaded two. Ghosts in the Machine. The Earth only has a few days left. Rosco Cudulian and the rest of the Phoenix colony have to re-upload their minds into the quantum computer, but a new threat has arisen that could destroy their stored consciousness forever. Listen to Oscar winner Brendan Fraser reprised his role as Rosco Cudulian in this follow-up to the Audible original Blockbuster. The Downloaded, it's a thought-provoking sci-fi journey where identity, memory, and morality collide. Robert J. Sawyer does it again with this much-anticipated sequel that leaves you asking,

What are you willing to lose to save the ones you love? The Downloaded 2, Ghosts in the Machine. Available now, only from Audible. Support for this show comes from the Audible original, The Downloaded 2. Ghosts in the Machine. The Earth only has a few days left. Rosco Cudullian and the rest of the Phoenix colony have to re-upload their minds into the quantum computer, but a new threat has arisen that could destroy their stored consciousness forever.

Listen to Oscar winner Brendan Fraser reprised his role as Rosco Cudulian in this follow-up to the Audible original blockbuster, the downloaded. It's a thought-provoking sci-fi journey where identity, memory, and morality collide. Robert J. Sawyer does it again with this much-anticipated sequel that leaves you asking, what are you willing to lose to save the ones you love? The downloaded two, Ghosts in the Machine, available now only from Audible. We're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. The MAFIDING Studios, this is Between the Links.

And now, your host, my... The iconic voice of Esther Lynn welcomes you to a brand new edition. of BTL on another Thursday. A lot to unpack from this past weekend. Some incredible performances, some questions about the future. Heavy hitters in the combat sports world reacting

to some news. The UFC heavyweight champion claps back, some news and notes. And oh yeah, there is a UFC event this weekend as well, which will serve as the Go Home Show for UFC 296. A loaded pay-per-view card. We'll talk about that more next week. But lots to talk about

on today's program. Let us introduce the combatants, a highly anticipated rematch, a highly requested crossover episode. And we are delivering here. So here we go. First, let us introduce Mr. Hot Take, Mr. No Gray area, one half of the No Betts Bar duo, the man behind Dan They Were Good. He's from M.AFighting.com and is officially announced he's on the board of directors for the Mike Bobo fan club, Mr. Jedmishu.

Hello, sir. Why are you going to start a cell like that, Mike? I'm in a great mood every day. And then you and Shaheen and Jose and everybody else is just coming from my throat. This is nonsense. We're team. We're supposed to be a team. Mike.

It's ridiculous. Oh my gosh. What is this, Jed? The 76th appearance on the show, not counting the podcast episodes and the one we just shoot the breeze on? We were talking off air. It's got to be 100. Just like if you count the just podcast steps. and the episode I hosted.

We've been here for some time. It might be my last, Mike, if you keep intro on me like that. Well, it is my job to try to pop you with every single intro. That's what we try to do. And his opponent, what a treat this is, friends.

He's back on the show, back once again on the M.A. Fighting Network. A man just killing it. Winning award after award after award with his morning combat co-host, Brian Campbell. Take cover donks.

He's back on BTL this week. The great Luke Thomas. Luke. How are you, sir? It's great to see you. Thank you for being here. I woke up at 445 for an interview this morning with an MMA fighter and they canceled at 5. I just want everyone to know that I'm tired and I'm pissed off. Hi, thanks for having me. I appreciate it. Tired and pissed off is a tremendous combination for this here program.

So with that being said, let's get right into this thing. This past Saturday, gentlemen, we had two pretty crazy cards that were on the MMA fans' radars and both delivered in their own respective ways. UFC Austin was nuts, and it was capped up by Armand Sarukian running over Benile Daryush in 64 seconds. And then you go to Salt Lake City, BKFC 56, which is everything you expected it to be. The main events on Mike Perry corner stoppage TKO went over Eddie Alvarez. After round two, Perry just did so much damage. There were multiple orbital fractures suffered by Alvarez. But that fight was freaking crazy until it ended.

So Luke, let's start with Armand Sarukian. He was a pretty big favorite heading in. A lot of people thought the betting line may have been too wide, maybe some disrespect to B'Neil Darius. Turns out maybe it wasn't wide enough, but Sarukian comes in, delivers in a big way. Your biggest takeaway from the biggest win of his career? Biggest takeaway of Armin Sarjukian is that he might really be the first

of this kind of new generation of lightweight, vaguely from, you know, parts of Russia, you know, former Soviet satellite states, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Dagasan, and more Georgia as well. One of those first guys at this weight class to really break through. There's been some fits and starts.

We kind of all thought that when they got here, they were like tailor-made to take over. And of course, they've done really well. But there hasn't really exactly been that breakthrough. Fiziv got pretty close against Gichi until he fell apart. And of course, there's been some other ones who I've had really high hopes for,

like Demerius Magulov, who kind of fell off as well. So it looks like he's about to break. through, 27 years of age, he beats Binal Darius. I do think it is fair to bring up Darius's age. First time he got stopped back to back. That's never happened before. All of that is new. All of that is a way in which I think to properly contextualize the value of the victory.

But my biggest takeaway is Saurukian is the guy in that pack of new generation of lightweights who appears to be most poised to break through. And I suspect he eventually will. Jedd, we've had some time to digest this since Saturday. We heard from Armin on the MMA hour this week talking about the win. What have you taken away the most from this victory and the fallouts since Saturday? Yeah, it looks not wrong. He's the next guy, right?

We've been talking for a couple of years about this crop of emerging lightweights. I mean, hell in the post-fight show, I kind of listed out the eight or nine, like, pretty good lightweights, two great lightweights who are under the age of 30, you know, it's, it's Surukian, it's Grant Dawson, it's Shailin Turner, it's Hafeel Fiziv, like that whole core chunk of people. And it appears that Surukian has, has pulled the head, which you certainly thought early on that he would do. I think a lot of us thought he probably had the biggest pause of any of these puppies coming up. And he's, he's right there. Now, what does that mean? It means these still two fights away from a belt, probably, because lightweight is an impossible weight class,

that upward mobility is almost not a thing that can even happen. And so now we're in this situation. We're like, yeah, Suruki, and he's a top five lightweight. He's top five in the UFC's rankings this week. I suspect when we do our update, he will kind of unilaterally move into that spot as well. But where does he go from here?

How does he get from, you know, five to belt? It's still, it's at least one fight away. like he is not fighting for the belt next and it might even be too based on kind of a backlog of contenders and sort of how things are going to break out so i think he is clearly in front of the pack of the new generation but the pack is going to have time to catch up because i don't think he's going to get to run into the lead and finish this race as it were chad we're like you both have mentioned we're in this weird lightweighty spot for serukin because while others have gotten their chance to make this big move up.

The rankings like Luke talked about and shake things up a bit. Fizzi fell short against Gae. Gamrot fell short against Dariush in October of last year. Surukian gets the top five guy and delivers the goods. So he's kind of in rarefied air at 155 right now because we've been talking about who's going to be the guy to emerge. We finally have a guy who has emerged. So what would you like to see next for Surukian?

I mean, he called though Justin Gaci. I'd be friggin stunned if that happened. But what would you like to see? and I guess maybe the more important question is here, what do you think will actually happen? So these are not going to be the same thing. Also, shout out to my boy, Matush Gamrot, who a year ago, you know,

whether you agree with the decision or not officially got the dubs over Surukian and is now behind him in the rankings because this game is impossible. So what I would like to see happen is what is the obvious and reasonable course of action? Armand Sarukin fights Charles Oliver and a no doubt about it, bulletproof locked in number one contender fight.

It makes the most sense in the world. Ola Vera, former champion, rebounded with a great win over Darius. You should have to win multiple fights to get back to a title, particularly when the way you lose it is to be so thoroughly outclassed. The fight between him and Islam, I'm not saying it go the same. I am saying that it will go the same every time those two men fight. I'm not saying it would go the same, but what I am saying is Charles Olivera had absolute donkey nothing for him. And so he should have to win more than one fight to get back into the ring with the current champion.

Now, if that changes, if Gaichi wins, we could re-talk about it. But what should happen is Gaichi gets his day in court against his Lamakov, Oliver and Sauru and Serookian fight, maybe even as the undercard, the co-main event to that for the no doubt about it, number one contender. that is very obvious. Probably not going to happen. For whatever reason, the UFC seems dead intent to get Charles Olivera some more brain damage.

They appear like they are going to run that back. Justin Gachi is simply not going to take that fight. He has earned his shot. He will sit and wait, which means Sauru Kyi is going to have to compete against somebody. My best guess, they run it back with Gamrod. Contentious fight, great fight.

It was one of my favorite fights of last year. I think I had in my top five. And there's not a lot of other fights. fights and makes sense because I know Sirukian said he would fight Dustin Porier despite the fact that they both trained at ATT. He was also pretty clear that he didn't want to do that. And I don't think Dustin Porre would have any interest in doing that. So there's just not a lot of avenues available for him here, particularly like maybe Fiziv could have made sense, but he's out with the injury. I think they probably just run back Gamron sometime early next year.

And unfortunately, Serukians left spinning his wheels for some time. Luke, what do you think? What would you like to say? And what do you think will actually happen? See, this is where like the wood and the should really diverge pretty big time. Because let's start with what should happen, what I would prefer to see. If you're Justin Gaichi, obviously, I agree with Jed that he's earned a title shot. I don't know if he'll get it.

But I certainly understand he's in pole position for pretty close to it, right? Having this win, becoming the BMF, you know, stopping. well, first of all, turning the tide against Fazeve and then backing that up by head kicking Dustin Porre. I mean, you know, these are these are very big, very important, very good, hard fought wins. I wouldn't be at all opposed to him getting a title shot. But I mean, if you're Islam Makachev, you know, it's an interesting kind of question here, right? For example, Justin Gehche, if you feed him to Islam Makachev, it's a really kind of a bad matchup form. Obviously, he can win on the feet, but on the ground, you'd imagine he might get overwhelmed. It's a fresh

matchup, so they might go in that direction anyway. But I think they also might want to keep BMF and the full title a little bit separate because once they become connected, it's going to be hard to undo them. So that's a weird one. So if he's not going to fight who is, probably Olavera gets fed back in, although he obviously made the promotion a little bit upset and not go following through on the Fight Island stuff. So it gets kind of weird. But if you're Sarukin, like, what would I like to see?

Yeah, I would like to see Sarukin fight Charles Olavera. I mean, I don't think there's one of the very best fights you could make in that division. Let's be clear about something. Benil Dereush is a skilled competitor that wins. over Mateus Scamrod is just really, really hard-nosed stuff. When people say Daryush is overrated, I agree he's had these epic moments of

collapse, the Hernandez fight, the Barbosa fight, you can go back to the Kiesi fight to an extent. He does have them, but he also has like really well-rounded skill, and that fight was a great showcase of it. He can do good things. But he did lose back-to-back for the first time. His hair is visibly almost

the color of mine. I can tell you, folks, if I have one too many old fashions, I wake up at my back hurts, and I shit all day. I can imagine, you know, he's probably not too far from something like that, right? You're getting older. It's absolutely unforgiving. And so while I do think that beating him is insanely valuable and does show a lot,

it's a whole different can of worms with Charles Oliva. Right? Because, again, you go back to the Gaci equation. He could fight Armin Sauriukian, but it's another situation where there's probably going to be a big disparity in the ground. No. If you really want to see if Saryukian's ready to move, if you really want to see what he's made of Charles Olivares about as good of a test as he's going to get offense all the time

everywhere, sometimes recklessly, although I think he's tied that, or I should say he's cut back on that a little bit. I think he's been a little bit sharper in his most recent performance for whatever that is worth. So that's what I would like to see. Sarukin versus Oliva, winner of that gets a title shot, no question in my mind. What will happen, I don't think they'll go that direction. The Gamrod won, though, I just don't buy that either. That fight was phenomenal, but I don't see why Sauruiken would take it. You'd make, well, he wouldn't, he would want to stay busy. I suspect there'll be some other stay busy fights he'd rather take.

I don't think that one's going to happen either. Well, come on. You can't just say there are other stay busy fights. Give us something, Luke. Stand on the corner, playing a flag. So, for example, I don't know if the UFC would go this direction. And personally, I would rather see it. But Jalen Turner versus Armin Saurukin sounds like a shit ton of fun to me as well.

I don't know what you might tell. We just saw that with the Gamron fight. but I think Gamrod and Sarukian have meaningfully different games. Listen, I don't want this either. I want this fucking guy fighting the people ranked above him. But I'm just saying, well, if you're Sarukian, would you rather run it back with a dude who can probably match you in the wrestling or somebody who probably cannot at all?

This is a very simple equation. I would love. Jalen Turner's my boy. I would love that. Dude, Jailen Turner's the man. I got nothing against him. And he's a legit knockout thread. Like, he can fuck everybody up.

I love what he's capable of. I'm just saying, if I'm just saying, if I'm Saurukian and I'm trying to figure out how do I not fuck up what I've already earned? I do not want to run it back with Gamrod. Like that's a fucking really tough, difficult fight under hard to prove I won circumstances, you know? Well,

I don't think they'll even give Jalen Turner that. That feels like a bum for Turner though. I don't know. I don't know what's going to happen with Arvon Serookian is the thing. Like, it was a great win that gets him almost nowhere. Yeah. It just bumped him up in the rankings. It put him in that place where, like, his name is now next to those names.

But you're right. Like in terms of like, oh, that's the fight it sets up. It's not like a 296 where you've got the main event, Leon and Colby. And then I don't know if it's, no, because the co-main is the flyway. But right under that is Shavcott and fucking Wonderboy, boy, it's like, gee, I wonder who Chavcott's going to fight if he wins. It's a huge fucking mystery. You know who he's going to fight.

The winner of that one. That's what I'm talking about. Oh, poor Malol. Poor Mal. It's a, oh, well, that's, that's, extra wall. This is one of those wins where Armand did enough to now people will fight him, but the people who will choose to fight him are the guys behind him. Like, whereas previously no one wanted to fight him, now it's like, hell yeah, he's got a number. I'll try and get him,

but that's not helping his mission statement. It's tough scenes, buddy. Lightweight, hard division to make hay in. It really is. It's also very hard to make hay in the world of bare-knuckle fighting championships. Mike Perry, Luke Thomas, was born for this bare knuckle shit. Dude is just a savage in there. His ability to absorb damage and almost like it to some extent and then deliver incredible damage of his own is just unbelievable. It gets another win. But as great as the Mike Perry BKFC run his Ben, Luke, we're kind of starting to run out of names here. And while money talks and BKFC seems to have that triller money that's chucking around to people, there's probably a lot of fighters with pretty big names and aren't doing much right now who are watching Mike Perry

fight without gloves and thinking, yeah, I don't know if I wanted to do that with that guy. So your reaction to Mike Perry's latest BKF showing against Eddie Alvarez and what could be next for him? Like, who would actually take that fight? What would be interesting to you? Yeah, I mean, I think it should be said. I was looking up like the history of bare knuckle boxing. And obviously it goes back to the 17th century.

It was initially called off in the end of the 19th century, I think 1889. brought back in England in 2015 and then in this country in 2018. Well, let's just be very clear about this, dude. Since 2018, Mike Perry is by far the biggest breakout star that that sport has produced. Like, it's not even really a close second. And you might be like, well, is he the best guy that it's produced? I mean, that's somewhat debatable. But like Luis Palomino and I think Lorenzo Hunt, both at different times, became double champions.

And they don't have the name value that he does. This guy has been a revelation. And folks want to be like, oh, it's because he's durable. He's durable. He's durable as shit. but he's dude he's he's he's like florida man as the best fighter you've ever version you've ever seen like he not only is tough as shit he is absolutely undeterred by difficult circumstances and the psychological makeup he has about i don't i don't have to rely on my athleticism in this place i'm sure

he's well trained or whatever but in this place i can just rely on who i naturally am and where i come from and what i've sort of been bred to do it's it's like though it's like a hand in glove kind of fit. So I don't think his success is accidental. And also, obviously, he's not going their post prime. He's going there exactly prime. And the results speak for himself. I mean, one thing they could kind of figure out is PFL could potentially do a deal. They talk a lot about co-promotion. Bellator putting the MVP and Mike Perry fight together was kind of interesting. I don't know what it would require in order to make a deal like that possible. But if they're willing to co-promote, you've got some interesting names around the sort of 165-ish, 175-ish area.

that you could pick up on a bigger lightweight or obviously a welterweight in those stables or some fun ones you could pull from there. Short of that, I think you should just listen to what Mike Perry says. Mike Perry wants to fight Jorge Mazvedol. Yeah, I think that probably makes a lot of sense for Mike. I think that probably makes a lot of sense for consumers. I don't know exactly what kind of fight you're going to get out of that in 20203 slash 24. I don't know if it's the best kind of fight, but you know, you haven't necessarily been getting some of that with Mike either. I mean, he's beaten real names.

Make no mistake about it. MVP was great. I had to go to overtime. Eddie Alvarez, the underground king. Obviously, Luke Rockold, the guy was a fucking champion at 185 pounds of two different organizations in MMA. Like, these are phenomenal wins he's putting together. But it's not, again, it's not exactly like I think Luis Palomino is double digit undefeated in bare knuckle. Like, he's really putting together a pretty incredible run, even into his 40s, he's doing this. So to me, you go to the Jorge Masvidal route, sell out on that one, see if you can't get it. If not, I think it's time to to call up some people's matchmakers and see if they're,

or the promoters and see if they're willing to co-promote. Jed, what do you think? Luis Palomino, he's a trier, man. He spent that week trying to get a big fight and just got no sold by everybody. It was kind of a rough week for him, but he's also got a big fight coming up in February, which is pretty cool. But what do we do with Mike Perry now?

I mean, Darren Till has been a name that's been floating around for a while, but Darren's talked about the Bar-Nuckle world. Mazadol's been doing Bear Knuckle forever, but he's probably still under UFC contract, so he'd probably need permission to do that. There are some other interesting names that were mentioned when you guys did that roundtable, but let's say Dave Feldman calls you right now.

What are you telling him? So I get everything that Luke said. He just couldn't be more wrong. Shut up to Louis Palomino. Boy, he was trying. He was out there just willing to get dunked on. He made zero business decisions, just walked into the line of fire.

and got peppered every time. And I reward him because that's the fight. It is not the biggest name. I understand the Horri Mosvedo call out. I think that is the thing that I think most people would have said, maybe Darren Till because there's been drawn there. And that is certainly the broadest, you know, audience. And that's what Mike Perry is after.

I get it. I don't give a shit what Mike Perry is after. I'm in this for me. I want my Christmas present. And my Christmas present is these two dudes be invited. violent as F, right? Like, because here's the thing for what Mike Perry's been, as Luke said, you know, he fought some big names, has some big performances.

By Mike Perry's own words at the end of the Eddie Alvarez, I was a little disappointed. I thought he could hang in there for a little bit longer. That's what I wanted. He's fighting dudes who are very new to this. And so is he and so there's that. But he obviously is so well positioned here. I don't, I want to see him fight dudes who are going to be able to take the punishment, give it back to have this long.

drawn-out competitive battle. Arguably the most fun fight or the most competitive fight he had was the Julian Lane fight, which is, you know, Julian Lane has a little bit more experience here. Give me Luis Palomino, like, because if Mike Perry's battle tested and built for this shit, boy, Luis

Palomino is for real. He is 9 and 0 in this, double champ, and it's not like he's some dude who, you know, came to this with nothing. He was doing this shit in MMA. His wars with Justin Gachie are like some of the most, the most legendary things WSOF did, right?

Like that is the thing I think of when I think of WSOF is those fights. And then Justin Gates, she's just in general. I'm like, that's good company to be in. This is not the most marketable thing. Not here to say it. This is for the real heads. We did one for them. It's time to do one for us.

Give me Mike Perry versus Luis Palomino. And I will pay $50 to watch that any day of the week. And so will every degenerate scumbag you know who watches this program and loves hardcore violence. Let's see if it happens. I have to say, I have to say, I mean, don't get me wrong, I would like to see that fight. I would like to see that fight.

I would like to see that fight. And here's the problem that Mike Scott, right? I mean, for everything that's going well, here's the problem. He's in a sport where there's not a lot of names, right? And that's, you know, and many of the ones they can get are over the hill. And so what, you know, relatively speaking anyway. And so what he's trying to do is like, for example, he was the backup for the Logan Paul Dylan Danis thing.

I mean, you ask me who I like to see him fight. I'd like to see him ice Dylan Dennis at some point. I mean, wouldn't that be just the joy of all joys? I say, Marty Grau came earlier, some shit. But in all seriousness, here's the problem. Like, just being absolutely real about Dylan or Logan or any of those guys. Dude, Mike Perry is, like, it would be fucking illegal if Mike Perry fought them. Like, he's so far beyond what they could physically tolerate or even be worthy of trying to

negotiate with. It's just, no, he's a terrible, like, again, worry some. bad matchup for them. So he's in the space. It's like, who the fuck can I fight? It's all the leftover names a la Bellator style that gets you the biggest paycheck. So what like Jed is pointing out is, hey, wouldn't the baboon fight? Luis Palomino, that's his nickname. Wouldn't that go, wouldn't that go much better and be much more interesting? Yeah, but like that's exactly the opposite of what Mike said he was looking for in the next one. So I don't know what he's going to, and by the way, he's got a lot of leverage relatively speaking for a BKFC guy.

You know, the promoter can't like, you know, force him to really like, you know, do a fight. He doesn't necessarily want to do. But if he doesn't have options, well, we shall see. Yeah. Mike Perry story and BMC is unbelievable. It's freaking unbelievable. But let us move on. Let's give away the first point.

And it goes to, I mean, just incredibly close round. But, you know, Luke peeling back the curtain and being honest about the old-fashioned nights and the back pain and whatever else happens the rest of the day. He nudges it out. I got to give it to him. One point for Luke Thomas. He's on the... Yay. Honestly.

Do you know, can I tell you a true story? Can I tell you a true story? Yes, please. Dude, so do you guys know who knees over toes guy is? I feel like I could guess, but no. So he's this dude. I think his name is like Ben something, but he's this dude who basically invented the style of working out

where it's like both strength training and full range of motion while bulletproofing your knees, bulletproofing your shoulders. And he's like, I could never dunk in my 20s. And now I'm 40 and I can dunk like a motherfucker. And you can see him do it. And he does all these crazy split squats and stuff. I had to hire one of his lieutenants to fix my fucked up body because it's so shitty. And he told me the only dude he's had who his body was more wrecked than mine was a car crash victim.

So enjoy your Thursday, boys and girls. It was a car crash victim. Given the point for that, we're okay. Yeah, I mean, you already got the point. If I can give you two, I would, but that's against the rules. But, uh... I'm Nilai Patel, editor-in-chief The Verge, and Decoder is my show about big ideas and other problems. We've talked a lot about generative AI on the show lately, which is a very big idea that is causing quite a few problems.

And one thing we keep hearing about over and over again is that generative AI is causing a lot of problems in schools. There are a lot of people out there, including many of the listeners. of the show who email us, we're worried about the obvious problem, students using chat GBT to cheat on assignments. But when our team went and poked at the story, they found that the issues in education with AI go a lot deeper, to the very philosophy of education itself. If this technology becomes more ubiquitous, we'll have courses created by AI, graded by AI, with submissions from students, absolutely generated by AI. So it begs the question,

What are we even doing here in higher-at? This episode is presented by Salesforce. Support for this show comes from Nordstrom. Oh, what fun! Nordstrom has gifts for all your favorite people all in one place, like beauty sets, sweaters, jewelry and toys, with tons under $100. Need ideas?

Check out gifts from Ugg, skims, Dipteak, free people, Stanley, and more. Plus, explore their amazing gift shop in stores and online. Freestyling, free shipping, and order pickup, make it all easy. Add Nordstrom. Look, as exciting as Armand Sarukian was and as exciting as Mike Perry was, nothing is more exciting than the PFL acquiring Bellator, right? And we actually got a very rare Dana White post-fight night press conference on Saturday after UFC Austin.

And he has spoken about that deal when it was just kind of in the rumors phase. but this is the first time Dana spoke about it since the deal was done and here is what he said quote it's fucking hilarious good for them I wish them all the luck in the world then he did the whole

ask the reporter the question right back thing a couple of times and then he opened his eyes wide turned a little red and said I've covered this before maybe you weren't here for this one shitty organization that sells no tickets and nobody watches buys another shitty organization

that sells no tickets and nobody watches sounds like a fucking winner to me. Woo! Did the woo like Rick Flair. And of course, Jed, Don Davis reacts to that. And we'll get into that in a moment. But focusing on Dana White and what he said and how he said it, he actually got a little fired up there.

And he's got the PFL hat on too. But you don't see that too often from Dana when it comes to talking about the UFC and potential competition. But what did you make of those comments from the UFC CEO. He's very shook by the future co-leader in the space, obviously. I mean, we've talked about this on so many shows since Don Davis should probably just not be given microphones because forever now, you just set this up to happen.

Like he, Dana may or may not have been that kind of brutal in his response anyway. but I'm willing to bet that a little bit of extra juice came because Don Dave was like, we're going to be co-leaders where this is who we are in four to five years. It's going to be A, B, and it has just never worked. And so Don should have not said that, but Dave is not scared because what the hell is he scared of? Like, let's, we're all honest.

Like, everyone knows the score here. The UFC is in a class by themselves. It's they aren't playing the same sport as other promoters are. This isn't chess to checkers. This is, I genuinely don't know some future game of chess with eight dimensions. They are so far ahead of the curve here. And unless this lawsuit comes back and like really rains them in, there's nothing. Like they have nothing to be concerned about.

And again, Dana won't be concerned about the PFL. the only thing Dana White has to be concerned about it all is that lawsuit, which doesn't appear to be going hot for them, by the way. But it's not Don Davis. And look, I don't like to call. I don't like to say that Dana White is right. Spot the lie, man. Those are two companies that don't make money.

One of them got acquired for free. That's the key thing. It was a good choice by PFL, but they paid for bail to her and monopoly money. they gave them stock in a company that is worth nothing. Like it is, they paid for it in fictional dollar bills and got 20 cents on the dollar. Like, there's,

he's absolutely right. And it's unfortunate because, you know, rep my boys. Let's go PFL all day. But, uh, yeah, Dana,

Dana's got the, got the gist of this one pretty well. Yeah. I mean, you know, I don't say it too too often, but, uh,

Dana White's like, his his mocking of it is he's on the money with it I mean he's on the money with it I mean not to say that you have to like love the mockery but is he going to regret it folks let's just be very clear about something right just state it what to state the facts what they are short of federal intervention in the form of Congress passing laws and or this fighter lawsuit succeeding either through settlement and changing

like when they get injunctive relief where they can actually change the contracts. Any kind of monetary damages don't mean shit, right? So we're just talking about whether they can change the contracts. In other words, unless some arm either legislative or judicial of the government intervenes, it is not possible to compete with the UFC. It's not possible. It cannot be done. I have seen it over and over and over and over again. You cannot in a separate garden grow your own version of here's our fight league here's our guys and we're going to be just as good we're going to have a great TV deal we're going to have a lot of venture capital and now at this point you know overseas Saudi money or whatever the case and we're just going to be just as good and

the and the public will accept this no they will not you will fail it is destined to fail is it better that pfl and bellator are together at least in theory yes it is much better it does make them a stronger organization, but this idea that it can in any way meaningfully challenge, I mean, folks, it's not magic why the UFC is making so much money. It's monopoly. It's like, it's, we get it. How does this happen?

That is how it happens. And so, unless you can alter that structure, you ain't going to do shit. Also, let's just be very clear about this. PFL, let's see what happens with him in 2024. Bellator never had a fan base. Let's just be very clear about that. It didn't have a fan base by the time it showed up. Dude, they didn't have a fan base by the time it was at the end of its run at Paramount Network,

much less everything else that happened after that. So what are you buying with that? You can buy the roster and use it. They're going to use it to farm out some other kind of rights fees deal. And it's like, let me get this straight. Belator didn't do great ratings on Paramount. It didn't do great ratings on CBS Sports Network. it didn't do great ratings on Showtime

and now it's going to do great ratings where? What the fuck are we doing? Like the whole thing is just so jumbled and messed up to say nothing of the market structures. Yeah, if I was Dana, I wouldn't be too worried either but for what happens in that courtroom. Now, Luke. Co-leaders.

Yes. Speaking of co-leaders. Don Davis, going back to him, while he is certainly a well-spoken and charismatic guy, it's successful business in over the years. Resumé is kind of impressive. He's helped make some deals for the PFL,

but he has also been a guy who has gotten posterized on the show more than once for things that he has said or graphics that he has posted on social media that are absolutely freaking ridiculous. And he has made a lot of promises. 80% Asian. Oh my God. And very few of these promises have come to fruition.

But I will tell. He, of course, reacted to what Dana had to say and we have to remember what you guys have both brought up, that Don Davis and his co-leader comments, that Dana White is worried because of the Bellator acquisition. Don Davis hit the old Twitter world, posted a graph with a quote, Luke Thomas from Gandhi, saying,

first they ignore you, then they laugh at you. It's so good. And they fight you, then you win. And then also saying essentially, hey, step two, check that thing off. We are one more step. from being the official co-leader.

Luke, how do you grade Don's reaction here? Gandhi. Yeah, I mean, I wish I had more hands. I'd give that post four thumbs down. I mean, fucking just the worst, just the absolute worst. I mean, dude, here's, you want to know the difference between the guys who run PFL and Dana White. And this is true. Like you mentioned, like, they have, I don't know where they went to college,

but I'm sure they went to someplace reasonably prestigious and, you know, everything they've done it for that they've been C-suite executives in the whole nine yards. And I'm sure that they are all the things that their resume says that they are, right? I'm not in any way. Don Davis went to Miami of Ohio, by the way. Okay. Well, he's him and Rathesberger. We're out there just doing God knows what.

But in any case, they have been successful as businessmen after their post-secondary careers were over. And I take that seriously. I don't think that that's any kind of joke. But like what they're not are, and you can just tell, they're not lifelong fight fans. They're not people who've been around the fight game, a tremendous amount of time. They're not people who quite understand what makes it tick. Dude, Dana White is the opposite of those guys, right? For better or for worse.

Aaron Bronseter asked him during the pandemic what his favorite book was, and he was like, I don't like books. I don't read. And yet he has been more successful than them in the business world. And you can say whatever else you want about Dana White. You can say whatever else you want. But the reality is he has been a fight fan probably as long as he's been walking. And he can't fake that one way or the other.

You can just tell he's got fight sensibilities that drives decision making that is much more rooted in the reality of how this business functions versus these guys who are like, you know, well trained in the business world, but don't seem to really understand this world. And the results speak for themselves. The social media post is just like the result of this like yawning gap between, you know, having these fight sensibilities and then understanding their current market. position. So I appreciate his, you know, you ever seen those people who post on Instagram? It's like, you know, wake up and smile. It's free. It doesn't cost you anything. You're like, shut the fuck up. You know, he's got, he's got that kind of, you know, very smiley barista energy, which some people like, but it ain't going to fix his business issues. Boy, did, uh, did Don Davis come back in this around with Dana White? Didn't he, Jed? I mean, look, it's your boy. That's your boy right there.

I mean, what did you make of that retort? Did he win the round with that one, quoting Gandhi? I don't know what Luke is talking about because nothing to me. Oh, you don't? I don't. Nothing screams fight sensibilities like quoting Gandhi poorly. This is the best. I lied earlier when I said Don Davis shouldn't be given a microphone or a platform.

He's the funniest thing going in this sport right now. The 80% Asian graphic, we have laughed about that for most of the year. Quoting Gandhi is so just so unbelievable, particularly when if like, even if you want to take this quote at face value, they ignore you, they laugh at you, they fight you, they fight you. Don, it's not the first two things that are the problem. It's when the UFC decides to fight you that you're fucked. So, like, it's just incredible. he keeps talking through it though and that's what you got to love about Don Davis he has that

sort of Chris Tucker in rush hour energy of being just dead wrong and that's not going to stop him from speaking whatsoever that's great because that's that's the energy I aspire to bring to my own life as well so he got dunked on all over the place but it's fine he'll just he'll get up he'll keep doing it again with his very next tweet which is that as I'm looking at it, PFL is innovating and growing MMA.

PFL Europe is a great example because as we all know, doing regional MMA is an innovation. Nobody has done this before or since. Particularly regional MMA that ostensibly your biggest market for consumption, the United States, cannot watch. There is no way for us to watch this PFL Europe card this weekend.

Don Davis, you're frigging hero. Man, I love you. Wow. It's the rounder here. Dude, on that pay-per-view, as soon as it was over, right, like they're wrapping up, you know, and they're like, thanks for watching, blah, blah, blah. And then they show these graphics. And one of the graphics they showed were the three fastest strikes thrown that night. I think one was 24 and two or 23. I'm like, dude, you literally could show me the exchange rate between like the Colombian peso and whatever the fucking currency is in like equatorial Guinea. and it would literally be more valuable to me as like an actual source of information

that I could potentially use at some point than literally the less than worthless how fast was this uppercut going which by the way, less than the speed of a fucking school zone what am I supposed to do with any of this information? Like you know what I mean? Like a shark has like a big bite you can measure it and shit. It's like this went 23 miles an hour.

What the fuck does that mean, Don? What does that mean? I love that you're here. because I've complained about this for like a year. You can't do punch speeds in MPH because 20 miles an hour looks bad. It's sick when you do it for pitching because a hundred mile an hour fastball, like that seems impressive to us and it is impressive. But like it's it's great.

It's great. We're rooting for you at BFL. I mean, come on. Come on. Make it's interesting. Also just reasonably. One, with their stats and I actually argued this specifically. toothed when I spoke to several other people, you can just make up things. Like there is,

there is no body that is overseeing you to make sure you aren't lying about the stats you're putting out there. No one gives a shit. And like force is pretty easy. It's mass times acceleration. So theoretically, if you have speed, you should be able to figure out how to be like, here's a force cop that they could put up there instead as a more digestible bit of info. But, you know, that's next season. They're still innovating. Got things to do, guys. Well, speaking of Twitter and innovation, John Jones returned to Twitter,

and he had some things to say about one Tommy Aspinall. That's where we're going in round three. Point for round two goes to, Jed, you got to dig yourself out of a hole. Two nothing, Luke. Wow. The four thumbs down was incredible. Was excellent.

I mean, just quoting Gandhi. It's like, dude, do you think MMA fans either know or care who Gandhi is? Here's the answer. No, no. Surely they have heard the name. I honestly, maybe, but 50-50. They have to have heard the name. Could they pick them out of the lineup?

Probably not. Well, they know who John Jones is, and that's who we're talking about now, because we've heard from Tommy Aspinall, ever since he won the interim title at MSG when he finished Sergey Pavlovich very quickly in on super short notice. And now the hardcore fan base, they want to see Tom Aspinall

get his shot against John Jones. Dana White doesn't seem all that interested in it. We'll get there in a second. But John Jones heads to Twitter and says some things. We're wondering when he was feeling about this whole situation. Tom Aspinall had said in some interviews

that John should be stripped of the belt because this is how it works. This is how it's been working in the UFC. But obviously John said a different tier. And here's what John had to say. Let me pull it up. I face the absolute toughest competition this world has had to offer for 15 years now. During camp for a title defense has sustained a major injury that required surgery for the first time of my career.

Now I have newcomers requesting. I get my championship stripped. Zero wins over legends, zero title defenses. And already thinking you can call the shots to Dana. That is hilarious. Luke, your response to John Jones sort of breaking his social media silence and kind of clapping back a little bit at on Aspen all. Man, come on, y'all.

I mean, this is, I just, it's so amazing to me. Like, you know what the most persuasive argument is in MMA? Like, the most persuasive. Power. Doesn't even matter what you say after that. However, however powerful you are, everyone around is going to go, oh, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. If you could be saying absolutely nothing of any truth value whatsoever.

But if you're powerful, it just steamrolls all the considerations around truth and everything else. Listen, do they have to strip John Jones? No, they don't have to. They don't have to do that at all. They can keep it on him if they want to. But what you can't do is both not strip John Jones and then also not give the interim champ an opportunity at unification,

which is exactly where we're headed. I know there's going to be some fucking idiot out there who looks at this and goes, hey, but the winner of John and Miochich can fight Aspinol. like that's going to happen. Like they're both going to retire. Both of their camps could not be more clear about this. Like that they don't want much more of this. By the way, if you were John, just rationally,

would you want to fight Tom Aspinall? I mean, I get that there is some glory for it, but the risk-reward ratio is a little bit skewed once you get to that level of the heavy weights. So the chances of that happening are minimal. I don't understand the point of creating an architecture for interim championships while also not doing the point of interim championships,

which is we can use this to not strip the champion on the premise that there is a resolution to this conflict when the champion in recess can return. They're just not going to do either of them. And it's all in service. Like this whole argument really just comes down to what do you think of John Jones versus Stipe Miochich? Dude, I don't think much about it.

I think the talking point between the best ever versus the best heavyweight ever is just that. It's a talking point that doesn't match the reality. John probably is the best heavy or best fighter I've ever seen. And Stepey's resume, whether you want to call him the heavyweight goat or UFC heavyweight, certainly the guy has done an incredible amount and has had enormous success. I'm not discounting any of that. But did you guys see Stepey walk out to the octagon at the last UFC?

Oh my God, man. The guy's like what, 41, 42? He was walking bow-legged like Cornelius from Planet of the Apes. Did you see that? My man could barely function in his hips. It was like he's, like he's so far past all of that at this point. And then John, obviously this injury is not great. I don't wish that on him, I hope he gets back and everything, whatever.

But like, dude, this guy past 40 who's been semi-retired since losing to Engano. By the way, go back and watch that second Inganu fight. Engano like merks him, not just at the end through the whole course of that fight. Like, we're holding all of this up for that? It just doesn't, it just doesn't pass basic scrutiny. No, you don't have to strip. John Jones, but you can't do that and then not allow Aspinall, whoever he ends up fighting in the down between, to unify at the end. You got to pick one. Do that. Jed, you're, you've been talking

about this a little bit. You've been pretty steadfast in your take about a potential John Jones versus Tom Aspinol. I thought you could see it. The Woody page of BTL, I've been calling you that since like the second time you were on. And here we go. Don't be scared, John. Don't be scared. your reaction to John's response to Tom Aspinall saying he should be stripped of the belt I mean I'm shocked I'm down to O because yet again Luke is wrong

Luke's out here saying the power is the most persuasive argument the most persuasive argument is small words Luke used a lot of big words I don't even want to get into that our arguments can't digest those this is not morning combat you know or it is this is BC's people here

And the small words are, John is scared. Don't be scared, homie. John, we all know what's going on, man. You want to fight this old man. As Luke pointed out with his big flowery language, this old dude who can't walk right anymore. Like, you just want to fight him because it gives you a bump. You get to feel good about yourself because you know that you fought once in the last five years, basically. And that was against Zero Gone, who obviously matched up quite well for you.

You're not it. You're getting old. You're feeling it in your bones. You see this young buck and you're like, I don't have to fight him. I'm not going to do it. Floyd Mayweather made a hell of a career doing this maneuver. So I understand it. But here's the problem, John.

I'm speaking directly to you. This isn't about Luke. This isn't about anything else. I've given you this message before. I hope eventually it gets through to you. And so you'll stop sending these tweets. Your legacy depends on this fight, John. Because I personally, and I know many others out there, they've joined the cause.

we could never call you goat because our goat could not be a man who's scared and you're so clearly scared of Tom Aspinall. So if you want to have the legacy that you think you deserve, stop trying to fight this old geriatric man. Stop trying to commit elder abuse. Nobody's into that.

Fight a young dude who's going to be quite good. Well, look, as a person who hates Steepa, I'm kind of into it too. But I'm far more interested in watching you fight Tom Aspinall and proving the shit you're saying, Because you're just talking about how all these dudes, you know, that bunch of whole guys coming up and nobody's ever been me. Prove it again. Prove it again or retire.

Those are the two choices, but you don't get to stand there and be like all these young guys talking all this greasiness and then not fight them. Like that's just not how this goes. So, John, don't be scared. That's it. That's the only thing. Don't be scared, John. I will say this. if I may add.

Like this dude to taking this fucking fight. I'll say this if I might just add one thing to Jed's point which is like, you know, I'm not the kind of guy

who's like, I'm not going to, I don't know his motivations. But I'll just say this. If his move to heavyweight was all those years off where he could have fought Francis and didn't,

fights gone and then doesn't fight Aspinall and just fights Miotich. So the only fights were a 40 plus Miotich, you know, truly at the end of his run and then a well-matched gone. And the gone fights nice. It's a good win.

But like you didn't fight Aspinall or you didn't fight Francis when you had an opportunity to do so. It's like you definitely didn't fight the toughest guys. Whether it was by hook or by crook, you can decide. But if it comes to that, it was absolutely not the very best at that era when he had an opportunity to do so. It's just not reality.

I didn't even bring that point up too, which is like John acting all sanctimonious about this belt there's a big word for you, Luke. Like, as if this belt's real. I've been called out of time or two. Like, ah, people asking me to release my belt. You mean the fake belt you got because the UFC don't want to pay Francis? Yeah, it'd be okay if you walked away from the fake ass belt.

It's fine. So look, why, like, I think you two speak for everybody. We want to see Jones fight Aspinall. Like, the hardcore MMA fan base does not want to see the steep fight. Now, so why the hell is Dana like so steadfast on this fight? is this just his Boston stubbornness? Is this just him believing this just does better business? Because it probably does more pay for you guys than a hospital fight.

I'm not here to deny that. Maybe we're trying to milk the last little bit out of steep. Like, why is this the, why do we have to have this fight? Why is this the fight we have to make? We don't. There's no, there's no reason why we have to. You're asking like, what would be Dana's motivation? I'm being dead serious about this.

This is obviously just to piss off the people who don't like more than, you know, monosyllabic words, just conjecture on my part. But I think two things. One, they probably believe, however right or wrong, I think somewhat erroneously, but they believe that fight would do gangbusters at the box office. I do think it would do well, but this idea that it's like such a coveted matchup that nothing else could take its place, especially when you're getting $25 million site fees in, you know, in Fide Island.

I mean, Jesus Christ, that's a ton of money. I just don't really believe that. That's a very compelling argument. The one thing that no one's really brought up that I kind of consider, Dana legitimately was always bothered by how this is true man even when he had his issues with John he was kind of riding with this he hated how John was cheated out of his win over Matt Hamill because of the elbowing now you could actually decide that the rule is stupid or you know how much that should have been enforced as a DQ versus anything else or whatever but you know it went on as a loss on his record I kind of wonder if they are wanting to do him a solid at the end of his run and by the way like oh they would never do John a solid they've done John eight gazillion solids over the year, including moving his rematch with Gustavs into a new state on a week's notice and being like, hey, that's just a thing we're going to do for some of our A-list guys. I honestly wonder if they worry that like if he fought Aspinall, if it's his last fight, he'd go out on an L and it kind of like crumble the whole facade because you can at least say, oh, well, the loss to Hamill was not supposed to be a loss. Like if you had a real loss to Aspinall, it would be the, you know, the first legitimate one, although I go back and say Dominic Ray has been him.

but other than that, it's just a belief in that fight. But I honestly don't believe they really think that that fight is so consequential for history. It's just not. Dad, what do you think? Why is there such a push for this from the brass when clearly the fans that you have and that are going to pay 80 bucks for everything? Maybe that's the answer. We're just going to pay for it anyways.

Let's try to get a few more casual buys. Like, there's no momentum for this fight. at all, zero for John Jones versus Stebe. I think there's, it's a bit of compounding factors here, right? So I think one part of it is probably a little bit of stubbornness. Like this is the thing we're going to do for the reasons. And at the time, like, I won't say that it was good, but it still did make at least a little more sense in the way that kind of these fights take shape.

But now with this delay, it makes no sense. And so there's probably a little bit of stubbornness. There's probably the belief that this does better business. I am super not sure about that, honestly. Like, who, Stepe is a star, I guess. But, like, he has never been a massive paper draw. He's been a solid one.

But, like, John is the A side. John will bring the people that would watch this fight anyway. Like, who is tuning into this fight because Stipe is in versus just John fighting? I really don't think there's a lot. And frankly, not to toot my own horn. I've given them, like, a thousand pieces of promo shit. to put up and be like, hey, this is the fight. People think John Jones is finally going to get beaten and they could put the, you know,

the dark menacing, this guy's talking shit and wants to kill the UFC like they did to AK, be like, John can't win. He's scared. You could build a promo to get at least the same number of people to watch this Sestipe, because also I think we all recognize that Tom Aspinall is a future star. He is a budding star. So I think that there's that idea. I think that idea is incorrect, though.

and maybe Luke's right like maybe there's a little bit they want to throw John a bone here but I think honestly legitimately the biggest reason to me and then no one will admit is because this is the way to get John to fight because I don't think John will fight anybody else

I think John had a very clear idea he would have taken the Francis fight probably though I in general don't believe fighters are afraid to fight other than John right now who's obviously terrified there are better explanations, but it is very coincidental that John was only ready to fight at heavyweight when Francis bounced again. Not saying he was scared.

That is an interesting coincidence. I still think he would have taken that fight. And his idea was, I'll fight Francis, maybe I'll fight Steepay and then be done. Francis left for greener, better pastures. And so he just swapped in Siorgan to get the belt. He'll fight Steepay and he's done. If the UFC comes to John with Tom Aspern, he's not taking it. Like if the UFC pivots their position is like, we no longer care.

If Steepay retires suddenly out of nowhere, John's, I just don't think John's going to take it. And so I think the push on this fight is this is the only way to get John to fight again because neither John nor Steepa will fight anyone else. They are both intent on ending their careers here. And if we're honest about that, then take the fucking belt off of him, man. Like, you've done it this past year several times that this fight does not need a belt to be significant in whatever ways it is significant. So just take the belt off him. If he chooses to come back and he chooses to fight Tom Aspinall, I'll eat my hat.

But that's not what's going to happen. So let Tom Aspinall be the champion. Let him fight the guys who need to. Let's have this division moving in a meritocratic way. And John and Steepa can do their little side quest, you know, whenever the hell they come to that resolution. Yeah, that fight doesn't need a belt anyways. It doesn't. Just do the fucking fight.

You don't need a title. Just do the greatest of all time belt or some dumb shit. Like, who cares? There you go. I like that. I like that a lot. And shout out to Tom Aspinol for his response on Twitter, which was like, you're right, John.

I'm sorry. And that's it. Just five words. And I laughed hysterically when I saw that. So let's, we'll see what happens at heavyweight. It's going to be interesting. Should have been five words. Should have been, don't be scared, homie, John.

I should have. been the five words he got. I would have been the only response I would have given him. Don't be scared, homie. Yes. Well, let's move on to round four. The point for round three goes to Jenmishu. Don't be scared.

Your job. Two to one. Guys, join the movement. We're going to gaslight John Jones into taking this fight. Let's go. All right. Support for this show comes from Chase. If you're a fan of women's sports,

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UFC Vegas 83 or as I have dubbed it, UFC Shang Vegas. Of course, it's supposed to be the Shanghai card, got moved to the apex instead of happening at 4 a.m. Eastern time. Now we're getting a 7.30 p.m. Eastern time start with the 10 p.m. main card headlines by Song Yidong versus Chris Scudierrez.

Jed, this is a tremendous co-main event for pretty much any fight night card you could put together. But look, we're getting five rounds. These are, these are two really solid bantam weights. Song yadong is young, hungry on a good little run right now, proved he can hang with some of the best in the world. Chris Gutierrez has been looking real good. He's only got two losses in the UFC. One was his first fight entering the promotion. The second one was to Pedro Munoz. This is an interesting fight. A wide betting line. Not the ideal Apexie made event, but it's pretty

solid. What do you think of this made events? Because this is a two-fight card, if we're being on but where are we at here? I disagree. I actually think this main card is, this main card's sneaky decent. I guess for an Apex card, this main card's quite good. Like,

because Apex is just the trash collector of UFC fight cards. Like, this is just where they throw in their leftovers into some stew and hope people will buy it. You know, like that's just how this goes. The Anthony Bourdain fight cards. This card's actually got some spots here that are decent.

I love the main event. I don't think it's a main event. But that being said, I love that it's fine. rounds like Chris Gutierrez song y dong ban on wade is the second best right class in the sport if you match up two dudes in the top 20 which is what this is arguably higher depending on how you feel about Chris Gutierrez this fight's going to deliver it's going to be quite fun and having more time to play out appropriately is I'm never going to be upset about that because

these type of dudes deserve 25 minutes to settle up so this main card is like this main event again it is low on name value but as they pay that's just not what we're doing at the apex these days anymore or ever, frankly. And the co-main event's goal? Well, good is relative, but the co-made event has more name value in Anthony Smith, Khalil Roundtree is on a great run, violent. And I think, like, look, lightweight out on this, Nasserat-Hawkshastamin Malarkey is a fun little scrap,

the Bannam-Wate, like flyweight banam-weight fight, right? Because Tim Elliott step in and on short notice in Sumederji. if that was not short notice, I'd be quite into it. It still takes a little bit off it. And then look, Iron Turtle. Like this main card is actually, as far as these things go, good. And we got Tutsu or Tyra, who is still one of the very best prospects in the entire sport is going on the prelim. So this is a better apex card than we usually get.

And one, I was prepared to come into this week insulting. And then I left being like, ah, it's not that bad. All right. Luke, you agree? Not that good, though. Not that good. I'll say this. Actually, yeah, for the, I mean, you got a great on a curve. I'll say this. Remember, it's supposed to be Song Yudong versus Piotr Yon and then that whole thing blew up. In fact, it was supposed to be the co-main event. I think Smith's filling in on short notice.

And then I even believe Sumed Darje was supposed to be fighting Alan Nassio Mento. And so you get Tim Elliott on short notice. There's like a bunch of substitution. So this isn't even what they tried to roll out even in Shanghai. Just the whole thing has kind of fallen apart. But getting back to Song Yodong versus Chris. Chris Gutierrez, 26 years old versus 32. I got to tell you, man, Bantonweight keeps getting hotter and hotter and hotter. Figgi moving up in his fight against Rob Fawn.

I didn't think he was going to look as good as he did. He looked tremendous. And Song of Dong is kind of the respected but sort of forgotten contender in this space. He has the winner of Ricky Simone, which I thought he looked the best he's ever looked. Great boxing in the pocket. He has good cardio. I think in general, pretty good scrambling and decent takedown defense. But if you go back and watch the Corey Sandhagen fight, it was only until he got busted

up over the eye that that fight really turned against him. He was giving Sanhagen everything he could handle and thence him. In fact, I thought he won the first round. You could even argue he maybe won the second as well. So like he was doing really well before that. This guy is ready for a big step up. Gutierrez, we know, dynamic kicking game, obviously like kicking in particular. So to me, what's so interesting about this main event is I think even if Song fought poorly,

he could still win because of the array of tools and physicality that he has. But what's interesting is that Gutierrez is a particular kind of problem. And we saw Pedro Munoz solve it, but he also fires back a lot of leg kicks. Song Yadong does not. So watching what Song Yadong does do, assuming he wins, in order to problem solve here, I actually think we'll tell you a lot about what he can do once he really starts tackling the upper end of this division. And so for that reason, I actually kind of like it. Anthony Smith, how many fights does he have left?

I don't know. Khalil Rountry hasn't really fought someone who has like aggressive takedowns and good jiu-jitsu. and I know Smith's been injury prone and he's not like a Dagasani wrestler, but he does have a good ground game and obviously he's got some wins over Gustavson and I think even no time.

What the hell is his name? Okun. Oudemir. Oudemir. He's got wins over those guys and some other ones via sub. He's got a good ground game, so that's kind of interesting.

Sumedherjee versus Tim Elliott. Tim Elliott is going to have the takedown almost whenever he wants it. We haven't seen Sumedergy since the fight against Schnell, which was that crazy round two back and forth. He's got a great kickboxing style, pretty bad takedowns.

So that one might be, but he's got good reversals and a good submission game. So there's a few gems on this one for what it is, an apex card. I don't love it. I'm probably not going to like watch it live,

but I will watch it for sure. Yeah, Ted Stewart's higher is really good. I'm excited to see what he can do. He's had some bad luck getting in that octagon. We get Garcia Costa back on there. You know, that's going to be absolute mayhem. So yeah, it's not too bad. Andre Munez, who has kind of,

Andre Mn Mniz, who fell apart against Brendan Allen and Paul Craig those guys fought each other he's back coming around to see what he's got like I said there's a few little

That's just a plus matchmaking Let's pick maybe a plus matchmaking Juni and Park A terrific overachiever versus Andreemite's A terrific underachiever Yeah yeah

That's a good point That's a plus Dude Tolita Alston Alan Carr Alan Sarr Alain Arr Yeah

8 billion. Against Hyann Dos Santos, who was the invictor Adamweight champion. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, like that's, as far as, this is honestly maybe the best apex card they had this year. Like, it's, it sucks that it's going to start at 10 p.m. or whatever ungodly hour it will start on the East Coast. But, and it's also quite funny to think that this was the fight card. They were prepping for Shanghai because there are three Chinese people.

And then, like, I don't know, Nazareth Hockpross, Jamie Mularky. is a classic Shanghai matchup. Like, I don't know. I don't know what was going on here, but it's not bad. It's really not bad Apex card. Yeah, I don't, like, when I say it's a two-fight card, I say it not that you won't be entertained watching this card,

but in terms of like storylines and stakes, it's a two-fight card. It just is. Anthony Smith, Anthony Smith beats Khalil Roundtree. Like, I'm so interested to see what happens there. Because he could get a freaking title shot. If, like, you can't bench Al-Lislewit.

You can't bench Alex Pereira until July. He's got a fight. And there's beef there. They could absolutely unbench Anthony Smith for that fight. Just to keep Pereira busy. You're trying to get him over as a potential star. You can't bench him till Jamal Hill can fight. So we got to do something.

Also, we should definitely, if Cleo Roundtree wins, he should get a title fight because Cleo Roundtree, as I have dubbed him, is the Glory kickboxer killer. He is, I believe, 3 and O against dudes who came from glory. Okay, but the Dustin Jacoby win is very... It doesn't matter. W's a W. W's a W for the narrative here. Now he gets to face the end boss of glory kickboxers and Alex Pereira for the belt. Sign me up. I'm in. I'm super in on this.

All right. I actually care more about this fight now than I did before. She's like, oh, Andy Smith-old, he's probably going to get jawed. But now I at least have vibes. I just worry he's going to get injured. You know what I mean? like because roundtree is just like fucking wow just hacking people to death in the first round

Smith's almost 36 man that's a tough place to be against a guy like that I don't know we'll see how that one goes 36 going on 80 like he has I was at a hotel bar once and I was talking to Anthony Smith this was actually in my hometown I remember the Overeem versus Rosenstrike card remember that one and Smith was there and I forget what happened with his hand he had some kind of

infection or whatever of a surgery complication. And the doctor like joked, oh, you know, if we remove two of your fingers, you can actually get back out there quicker. And Anthony Smith was like, yeah, remove them. Just take them. It was actually his pinky and in his ring finger. He was like, I don't even need him if it's going to help me get. Like that dude's level of injury tolerance is, I've never seen anything quite like that.

So, yeah. I'm relatively confident you need those fingers. I know. It's like, he's acting like, I'm like, I guess you can. still play pool with them, you know, if you had just the three or whatever, but, you know, maybe you get a nicer parking spot, I don't know. Pinky. Dude's a savage.

Dude is a savage. We'll see if he can defeat Khalil Roundtree. He's just been buzz sawing people. Getting an interesting fight. All right. The point for round four goes to the Prince of Positivity, Jed Mishu. It's two to two. Oh, no.

That means. Who could have seen this coming? It never happens in the show. And never, ever, ever happen. Don't call it. Comeback. Momentum. The big mo. Right here.

The big mo. Right there. So that means we're going to do the knockout route. One question. Each of these competitors have 60 seconds to give their response. And then we'll take it to the peeps. Poll will be up on the chat. You guys can vote on who you think wins.

Casey will come on and announce the winner. So Jed, don't be scared. You're going first? I definitely don't get to choose. He beat me last time. But you were the most recent winner. So, and you beat BC last time. I did beat BC last time.

What a heroic effort. I'll go, I'll be scared. I won't go first. It's not going to matter, but I will go second. You're going second. All right. We'll go over to Luke. Luke, obviously, UFC 296 is next week.

It is a loaded card. Two good title fights. There's a lot of intriguing storyline. So I'm going to cheat a little bit. Didn't really know where I was going to go at this, but we had a very interesting question on our Twitter show this morning. To you, Luke, looking at this lineup and things could obviously change.

But right now, what is the most compelling or intriguing non-title fight for UFC 296 and why? One minute on the clock. Ooh. Go. Well, an easy answer would be Shavkat Rachmanov, 17 fights, 17 wins, 17 finishes. If he polishes off Wonderboy, he probably gets a title shot. Maybe Belal Muhammad, I don't know. But how can you answer anything other than Patty Pimblit versus Tony Ferguson? Tony Ferguson after putting himself through Navy SEAL Hell Week,

for reasons we literally not a human on earth understands heading into this contest after multiple losses, multiple stoppages in most of those cases, against a guy who a lot of people all of a sudden just don't really like, but does have some ground ability, but here's the funny part about it, right? Everyone's kind of sad about Tony, and everyone doesn't really understand this.

No one is going to get a bigger pop if they win on that night than Tony Ferguson, not Colby, not Leon, not Chofcott, not the fly weights, nobody. Tony Ferguson will tear the roof off that bitch if he somehow finds a way to get a victory for that reason alone and how it would soothe the fan base. You have to pick that contest. What a moment in MMA that would be. That would just be right on brand with the rest of 2023 if that happens.

So, Jed, maybe you're regretting going second on this one, but maybe you have a totally different answer. Of course, we have a new fight on this card. Josh Emmett no longer fighting Giga Chacate. He's now fighting Bryce Mitchell on short notice, not Diego Lopez. I was hoping for Diego Lopez, but Bryce Mitchell stepping in.

Same question for you, Jed. What is the most compelling and intriguing non-title fight for next weekend's UFC 296 event? And go. I'm not regretting it because, like, he did so many times this episode, Luke's just dead ass wrong. Like,

Let me tell you who does it, like why that's not intriguing. Because I'm not interested in watching snuff films. Tony Ferguson is a thousand, hasn't won in 18 years, and it's going to be the saddest end possible. Oh, yeah, if he wins, cool. If I had wheels, I'd be a wagon, Luke. That's not what's going to happen. That's just going to make everybody sad next Saturday.

You know what is interesting and fun? It's the low-hanging fruit, but that's the juiciest baby. It's Shavcott versus Wonderboy, because Shafka, I think he's the real deal. I think that this guy is the future champion of this weight class as soon as he gets the opportunity. He has got to beat Stephen Thompson. Stephen Thompson is a style that has historically been really tricky

for all sorts of people. So it's actually an interesting fight. And what if he loses? Because if he's win, Luke's right from earlier. He gets a title fight. But if he loses, does Wonderboy get to fight Leon Edwards? Is it finally Belaw's time? What the is going on at Welterweight with the outcome of this fight?

Yeah. I love the Ian Gary Vicente. Luque fight too. Ian Gary's been in the news and not for tremendous reasons. People have a lot of feelings about Ian Gary these days. I'm so tired of that story. Can I say my level of interest in that story? I didn't have much to begin with. I've even less now, you know? Right. But basically, Ian's going to say a lot of things. He's going to build things up. People are going to have feelings about him. And if he goes out and just runs over Vicente Lucke, none of that shit matters, man. You go in there and you get a win. that solves everything and that changes a lot of perception and who knows who knows where he goes

if he goes out there and just melts facente luke that would be super impressive so cash your votes right now uh is a is a oh my god she'll make belal fight him oh my god poor bala man tell me i'm wrong this that's why this main event that's why this leon edwards fight colby covington fight needs to have it i don't even care the result it just needs to happen so we can make moves. We can move this division along. This division has done nothing in 2023. Absolutely nothing. It's insane. Shavcott fought in March. We haven't seen him since. We've seen some people emerge, like Ian a little bit. He at least fought Neil Maggie. Blonde Gilbert's fought in May. It seems like that fight happened a decade ago. Like, because nothing has happened in this division.

There's been no movement at all. So UFC 296 is going to be a very important event. So cash your votes. a little programming notes while basically wasting time for the votes to pile up. We'll do heck of morning tomorrow morning. We'll have a preview show tomorrow for UFC Shang Vegas, 1 p.m. Eastern. We'll do the normal rigamaru

for the coverage throughout that card. And then next week, obviously, UFC 296. Lots going on. Karate Combat's got a big event with Benson Henderson and Anthony Pettis. Jose will be on site in Las Vegas. Jake Paul's got a boxing match against Andre August.

That's where I'm going to be this week. So I'm... Wait, is that this week? I thought that was next week. Next Friday. Next Friday. Eight days. Eight days.

The day before UFC 296. So that's happening as well. So it's going to be a very busy week here. Also, the last showtime boxing event, December 16th, the same day as UFC 296, David Morel Jr. is back. There you go. A lot happening. Big news from PBC. I'm sure you saw that, Luke, with Amazon.

It did. Some other big news, guys. Please. I was just going to say, they, they, they, they, They usually do like double or triple the amount of shows of 12 to 14 that they announce. So I don't have any inside scoop, but I'm definitely expecting to hear that there's going to be another deal with somebody because that's not enough shows. So we'll see what happens.

Yeah. That was one of the things that stood out to me as well. And A.K. Lee, rejoice the ultimate fighter returning in 2024. Oh, I genuinely assumed that that was going to be our question. You were going to be like, who should coach tough? I thought that'd be around for. Dude, I actually met a guy. I was at a MMA gym relatively recently, and I met a guy,

and they were like, oh, the person introduced me was like, oh, he was on the ultimate fighter. And I felt bad because I was like, I don't mean any slight by this, but I just didn't see it, dude. I just didn't, you know what I mean? Like, I didn't watch. And he was like, I don't know who has. Honesty.

Honestly, you would have got a point on this show. Casey, do we have enough votes? Do I need to waste more time? I know you should coach tough. Who should coach tough? John Jones and our boy, Tommy Aspinall, obviously. That would be cool. Yeah, but coaches on Tough don't actually fight, so.

Not anymore, apparently. They will sit and wait desperately for the money grab to maybe one day happen now. Casey, who wins? We have a winner. Okay. Your winner today with 58% of the votes is, and still undefeated, Luke. Oh.

Yeah. I was expecting to take the L. I was expecting to take the L. This is great. Jed, you were looking like, I could say something. You were looking like Clay Gwida up there. You knew you lost, but you were still jumping up and down,

thinking you were going to win. Like, at least showing the... It took me, like, six tries to beat B.C. I think I can get Luke in five. All right. Let's be over under. Luke, please. You get the floor here.

Hey, thanks everyone for watching. I really appreciate it. You know what? Jed is, he has a law degree, but he's not from New Mexico. So instead of Better Call Saul, I'm just going to say Better Call Y'all. That's Jed's new fucking Yolk-ass nickname for being from the worst part of Georgia that he is. But he is a wonderful guy. Thank you guys so much for having me on.

I really appreciate it. And yeah, just catch my stuff. YouTube.com slash Luke Thomas or YouTube.com slash morning combat. Thanks, everyone. Woo. All right. Luke Thomas, everybody. He's got a bolt, so he may just kind of roll out.

But, Jed, your thoughts here. It's fine. I'll get him eventually. Just give me enough shots at it. A new episode of Dam dropped. Damn on Mark Hunt released this morning. So make sure you go check it out. It's our longest episode ever.

We get pretty deep in the weeds. And it's really. fun at a great time. So yeah, you know, I knew it was going to happen. Still got to figure out the range, you know, I'm Max Holloway in here. I need like three more shots at Volcanovsky and we'll get it settled once I kind of figure out the pieces. Yes, I'm saving that episode for my drive to Orlando on Wednesday and I figured that'll get me there. Luke's still here? A whole way. Yeah, you still here. I think about this semi-frequently. Do you remember at the meetup, uh, we did for MMA fighting in like 2016, where you roasted me for like five straight minutes on using the word yonder.

Oh my God. Hey, there's a dog stuck in the fence down yonder. Somebody need to go fetch him. We're out like at a bar and I said yonder and Luke just laid into me. And now every time I use it, I think of you. I mean, yonder is only one of those words that you can like, you'd even know unless you've been like, knifed in a fucking Zaxby's in

Brunswick, Georgia. I mean, that's who uses the word yonder. Oh, my God. It's a great word. It's a great word. Hit the music, Casey. We are done. Wow. What a show. This has been. Thank you to Luke for hopping in here. Thank you to Jed for making his 8,000th appearance on the program. 8,001, probably happening next week as well.

Big shout out to Casey on the ones of Tuesday. The iconic voice of Estherlin will take you home. I am Mike Heck. Back next week on Between the Links. Good night, everybody. Love y'all. This has been Between the Links, and I'm going to be a fighting production

on the Vox Media Network. What the hell is there? Yon? Okay, only 10 more presents to wrap. You're almost at the finish line. But first, there, the last one. Enjoy a Coca-Cola for a pause

that refreshes. Hi, I'm Sophia Loper Caro, host of the Before the Chorus podcast. We dive into the life experiences behind the music we love. Artists of all genres are welcome, and I've been joined by some pretty amazing folks, like glass animals. I guess that was the idea, was to try something personal and see what happened. And Japanese breakfast.

I thought that the most surprising thing I could offer was an album about joy. You can listen wherever you get your podcasts. Oh, and remember, so much. happens before the chorus.