MMA Fighting - BTL | Nunes vs. Aldana, Dariush's Moment Of Truth, UFC 289, Jon Jones vs. Tyson Fury, More

Episode Date: June 8, 2023

Amanda Nunes will headline UFC 289 this Saturday as she defends her bantamweight title against Irene Aldana. Should she be victorious, what will that do for her already cemented legacy, and win or lose, could this be the last time we see the greatest women's fighter of all-time compete? On an all-new edition of Between the Links, the panel will discuss the main event of Saturday's UFC pay-per-view event in Vancouver. Additionally, they'll discuss the quality of the card, the pivotal lightweight co-main event between former champ Charles Oliveira taking on Beneil Dariush in the latter's biggest fight of his career, Dana White doubling down on a potential Jon Jones vs. Tyson Fury fight in the octagon, the UFC Vegas 74 main event between Amir Albazi and Kai Kara-France, where Albazi goes with the heavily debated decision win, and how the conversation of judging after the fight has aged, and more. Host Mike Heck moderates the matchup between MMA Fighting's Alexander K. Lee and Eric "New York Ric" Jackman. Follow Mike Heck: @MikeHeck_JR Follow Alexander K. Lee: @AlexanderKLee Follow Eric Jackman: @NewYorkRic Subscribe: http://goo.gl/dYpsgH Check out our full video catalog: http://goo.gl/u8VvLi Visit our playlists: http://goo.gl/eFhsvM Like MMAF on Facebook: http://goo.gl/uhdg7Z Follow on Twitter: http://goo.gl/nOATUI Read More: http://www.mmafighting.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Support for this show comes from the Audible Original, the downloaded two, ghosts in the machine. The Earth only has a few days left. Rosco Cudullian and the rest of the Phoenix colony have to re-upload their minds into the quantum computer, but a new threat has arisen that could destroy their stored consciousness forever. Listen to Oscar winner Brendan Fraser reprise his role as Rosco Cudulian in this follow-up to the Audible Original Blockbuster. The Downloaded, it's a thought-provoking sci-fi journey where identity, memory, and morality collide. Robert J. Sawyer does it again with this much-anticipated sequel that leaves you asking, What are you willing to lose to save the ones you love?

The Downloaded 2, Ghosts in the Machine. Available now, only from Audible. Support for this show comes from the Audible original, The Downloaded 2. Ghosts in the Machine. The Earth only has a few days left. Rosco Cudullian and the rest of the Phoenix colony have to re-upload their minds into the quantum computer, but a new threat has arisen that could destroy their stored consciousness forever.

Listen to Oscar winner Brendan Fraser reprised his role as Rosco Cudulian in this follow-up to the audible original blockbuster, the downloaded. It's a thought-provoking sci-fi journey where identity, memory, and morality collide. Robert J. Sawyer does it again with this much-anticipated sequel that leaves you asking, what are you willing to lose to save the ones you love? The downloaded two, Ghosts in the Machine, available now only from Audible. We're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network.

This is Between the Links. And now, your host, my... The iconic voice of Esther Lynn welcomes you to a brand-new new edition of BTL. Thank you for having us on, wherever you have us on. A lot to get to today in the wonderful world of mixed martial arts. We have a UFC pay-per-view this weekend. UFC is back in Canada and Vancouver. We'll talk about that. We'll talk about gimmick fights that the UFC wants to do, but apparently never do, judging conversations and much more. We have a heck of a matchup this week. PUN completely intended. Let's introduce the combatants first

and some breaking news, at least as of right now. We could see him back on the watch parties this Saturday. He's a lot going on. He's a very busy man, but you know him from the MMA hour, the incredible MMA fighting social media team. The man with the best theme song in all of MMA, he is New York Rick, Eric Jackman. What's up, man?

Mike, it's my honor to be here. It's the apocalypse outside here in New York. And I could not think of a better way to spend my final days than with you our next combatant that you're going to introduce and producer Casey. There's nowhere I'd rather be. I love you guys dearly, and I'm looking forward to spending this time together.

Off to it, just a great start. You can tell that Jet is not the opponent. So let us introduce the opponent. I guess we shall call him the defending champion. I don't even know who the champion of BTL is these days, but he's the co-host of On to the next one. And the new hit MMA fighting show, Tough Hang, the Prince of Positivity,

and my best friend, look at the hair, look at the plants, look at the background. He is the great Alexander Kaylee. How are you my best friend? Number one, defending champ, Mike. USA, USA. I mean, I mean, Canada, Canada, Canada.

Sorry, I got confused. I got confused. I just, I don't win very often, Mike. It was a great win. It was a spirited affair. And this will be, I think, a much more friendly affair. But let's start with this past weekend, gentlemen. the main event of UFC Vegas 74. I love being in the middle of guys with just luscious locks of hair

when I just am shining like crazy at the top of my dome. But Amir al-Bazi wins a pretty heavily debated decision against Kai Kar-Franz. Most people scored it for Kai-Car-France. Fourth round scoring on one card is kind of the big sticking point. But I don't know. We're not here to talk about who scored what for whom. Was it a robbery? Was it not a robbery?

I want to kind of divert the discussion more towards the conversation of judging and scoring in general since Saturday things kind of taken a turn and I think they've kind of taken different turns since Saturday because it's been quite interesting. And Rick, I want to start with you because this is a topic that is debated. There's arguments. There's agreements and disagreements in all sports, right? These types of conversations are kind of the benchmark for tent pole programming on ESS. SPN and Fox Sports and other networks, even shows like this. Like these conversations are great for shows like this. But I don't know, just being on social media and being a part of the M.A.

hour, just kind of surveying the scene. I wanted to get your kind of thoughts on the judging conversations since Saturday. Like where have we come since then? Is this a healthy conversation? Are we getting anywhere? Are people being educated or is this just negative across the board? And we are just going way far backwards instead of forwards with this whole thing. Yeah, I think you answered the question with the question is, where have we come since Saturday?

And the answer is nowhere. And that is where these conversations will always go is nowhere. My compadre, my partner in crime, Mary L. Hwani is currently fighting the fight for transparency and asking for the judges to explain themselves and have some accountability. And I don't foresee that happening, nor do I foresee anybody's mind being changed if we were to get that transparency, nor do I foresee any changes. that will actually help this being made by the commissions. So ultimately, yes, I'm quite, I'm quite on the negative, let's call it, in terms of hopefulness about anything changing here. I think people have dug their heels in.

They either care about educating themselves or not, and I've already done so, and just want to talk about how they scored their card and argue and yell into the void with other people who have scored their card the opposite way. And then move on to the next time they have an ability to do that. It reminds me a lot of the American political climate where there's just a bunch of noise from both side and really not a lot of actual conversation and listening and learning. So, yeah, I don't see anything that has changed. I don't expect anything to change. And we'll get more of the same the next time there's even a remotely close decision.

AK, you're the Prince of positivity. What do you think? Have the conversation's been positive at all? Are we in any better of a place with this stuff now than on Saturday? Near Creek, have you, I don't, listen, I'm going to, guys, I'm going to say something here that I think is going to blow your minds. I got, I got two words that I feel like is going to solve this whole thing. New York Creek, have heard of the concept of open scoring? Because let me tell you something.

Let me tell you something. I've heard of it. You put those score cards out there. We don't have this controversy, all right? A guy car of France probably just, he sees, he's down on the cards, and he should. just unloads the clip in round five, smokes Albazi in the first 30 seconds of the round. Just like that. Just like that.

He just turned it on. He just turned on and go after him, just completely smoke them. Open scoring. Listen, we're talking about transparency. Yeah, listen, we can talk to the judges all we want. But you put that, you get, you put those scores on the screen for the fans. You give that information to the fighters. Guaranteed to solve all these judging controversies.

You'll never have another judging controversy again. The fighters want it. We should always listen to what the fighters want. They're the smartest people in the entire game. So definitely we should go with that suggestion. And of course, I'm sure Ara Hohwani, if he had heard of open scoring, would be pushing for it on the show all the time. I think someone definitely needs to tell Ariel about this,

because I think he'd be all for it, as I am. AK, look, open scoring to me is just, who knows, it's just going to be more of a negative conversation to me. Like if people are already, yeah, if we see the entire scorecard on social media and all the backlash came out, can you imagine if we had open scoring in that fourth round and we saw the one judge scored it for Amir Al-Azzi? Twitter would be a nightmare. I would have to like just leave Twitter altogether. So outside of like what we can use to implement to make this better, which by the way, nothing's going to change anytime soon. I guess we're not here to educate.

We're here to make MMA a more digestible place. here on ETL. What would be your best advice to fans about all of this and how to handle it and scoring and just so we're not so divisive and angry all the time about it? Yeah, yeah. First of all, let me just say. I was obviously being super facetious there about open scoring. I'm not, I'm actually like not against it.

We've had this debate ad nauseum on Slack, on social media. They've talked about, you guys talk about it on the MLR all the time. I don't know how many times open scoring has come up after a weekend like this. same kind of discussions. New York, Rick, you've kind of alluded to like, you talk about it, nothing ever changes. But again, it is a discussion that keeps happening.

And again, listen, if major organizations and commissions decided to make this the norm, I would like totally be fine with it. I'm not against open scoring. I'm against the sort of this overarching notion that like it will solve so many things. But I was joking, you know,

about the fighters wanting it and kind of making crack with up. But it is true. I think if the fighters want it, it would be nice for the fighters. is to have some sort of agency over the rules. We always talk about this, right? We wish fighters could agree on things to push sort of change in the business. And if they could all, if so many of them are agreeing on open scoring and it made it happen,

again, I think even most of the fighters know it wouldn't fix all the problems. But if they want it, like, that's fine. It's a cool thing. I'm not against it. I don't think it's like, again, guaranteed to make things better. But I'm also not saying it's going to make things worse. I just don't want people to be disappointed if open scoring comes around. And then we still end up having a lot of these controversies.

Mike, you said the exact same. You just said it perfectly like imagine these conversations that we're having after fights, just happening during fights, happening after the second round, fourth round, the middle of the fight. It is what would happen. It is what would happen. And I'm not saying that's bad, but we're just saying, you know, transparency can lead to just as much like chaos as it can of resolution.

So I'm with up. Some people mentioning the comments changing the scoring system. Again, this has been discussed so many times. Do you do half points? Do you throw out the 10-9 system altogether? other. So the number one thing for me, if I could wave a magic wand, would definitely be to adjust the scoring system. I would give more points for submission attempts. When I do my robbery reviews, people get really mad at me because I don't, under the current rules, I don't give a lot

of credit for submission attempts. There's actually why I'm one of the few to have scored round three of this fight in question of Abasi versus Carfranz. I actually scored it for Carfranz because it's hard to gauge how closely it actually was to finishing. It looked bad for Carver France, but I actually like the elbows and the ground and pound that car frances at the end which for me was more impactful which is a big part of the criteria so the fact that i'm even saying this and i'm sure people like confused like what the hell is i talking about shows that i think we need to adjust a bit i just don't think it's suitable for m a to always prioritize impact and again it's not really quote listed this way damage uh in the rules but that's how the rules are now let's give more credit

to you know improving position effective grappling it's in there it's in there you are supposed to credit it, but I would put even a heavier emphasis on it. And again, I would really love to change the whole 10-9 thing. But that's where we are. Other than that, it's just about education. And I hope people, you know, they go into these fights, knowing the rules. I know a lot of fighters don't. I know a lot of people in the media don't necessarily fully understand how the

scoring is. And you don't have to agree with it, but just kind of understand what the judges are working with here. So I think a little more understanding all around is, it's not a lot to ask for. Rick, what would your advice be? Yeah. Yeah. So I'm going to discount the idea of like changing rules and things like that because I believe the spirit of the question is like what am I telling fans to do, right? Mike, unless I'm mistaken. So my advice to fans would be to vote with your wallets. It's the voting power that you have. It may not seem that way, but you are actually the UFC's boss. You are actually Endeavor's boss. You are actually anybody who's product that you purchase is boss. You are the customer. You are the consumer. And much like with the conversation about the watered down UFC cards, people are continuing to devote. Yes.

with their wallets and say, I continue to like this. Please, can I have some more? And you continue to watch these cards and you continue to pay for the UFC product. And they're not incentivized to change anything. If there's a situation where because of the lack of accountability when it comes to commissions that oversee UFC fights or Bellator fights or PFL fights, fans are starting to tune out, well, then I think the UFC and other stakeholders like Bellator and PFL will be more inclined to talk to the commissions and,

actually try to have something changed and make some action until until the bottom line changes, until the fans vote, until there's some actual net impact that will make the UFC move in a direction or as I said, Bellator or PFL because it's not a league specific thing. It will continue to just be noise on Twitter. It will continue to be useless and fighters will be losing out on money and nothing will change. So my advice to fans is if you truly care and don't, it isn't just about putting your voice out on Twitter and getting into arguments on Twitter. But with your wallets, make sure that people understand the people with power in this scenario, understand that this is not an acceptable outcome.

I would encourage the fighters to do the same. And make some actual change. Create change. Be the change you want to see. That is my advice to everybody. And if you just want to sit on the sidelines and not do that, just understand that this is going to happen. And it's probably going to happen on Saturday.

There's probably going to be a fight where most people, we're going to score for one fighter and then it's going to get scored for the other because judging and rules and sitting here on top of the mountain top being like I know the rules better than you doesn't mean anything because it is a subjective thing at the end of the day only the three people scoring the fights can determine what is damage like what does it actually mean what is the definition of damage in certain things like was their angle better than the other person's angle why did they scored this way what did they score this way nothing's going to change so we just need a little bit of acceptance that these close decisions are going to happen. People are going to be pissed. Some people

are not. Don't make yourself too angry if you don't need to. That's the way I look at it. So I do want to transition real quick to Amir al-Bazi, New York, Rick, because no matter how people scored this fight, no matter how you placed your bets, none of that matters. And nothing's going to change. Amir al-Bazi defeats Kai Kar, France to be a split decision. It's going to be in the history books forever, unless there's some sort of failed drug test or something that gets overturned in no contest. I'm not saying that's the case, but that's the only way

that this result will change. The man wants a title shot next. Will he get his wish? And if not, what is next for Amir al-Bazi after? Even though it's controversial, the biggest win of his career. Yeah, I don't know the answer.

I was a little bit confused that Dana White didn't really want to push Royval into that spot. So that makes me think that the door is open for Al-Bazi or maybe potentially it's an Al-Bazi. Roy Val fight, but it's something in that range. He's either getting a title shot next or one away after Pantosia and Moreno finished their business.

So yeah, he's right there in the mix. It's one fight away or he could get it next. The fact that Dana White didn't rubber stamp Royval makes me think that the door is wide open for Albaasi to kind of make the case or try to slide in there. So yeah, he's close. He's close no matter what. It's going to be one or next. A.K. Are they going to do Al-Bazi-Royval?

Does one guy have a lean over the other? Where are we out with this after this past Saturday? Yeah, my best friend, we talked about this a little bit on onto the next one. And if it were up to me, I think he would have to go through Royvow. But I, and my head was hurting us. I think you were breaking this down. You presented sort of a number of, not a number, but the kind of the snare that would have to happen for Al-Aubazi to get the next shot. Of course, we've got Moreno and Pantosia coming up. If Pantosia wins,

we assume Moreno would not get an immediate rematch. So there you go. I mean, that's a great spot for Al-Bazi to potentially slide into. I think he said he wants to fight in Abu Dhabi. And so it's not out of the realm of possibility. And this is like, for me, it's a bit surprising because I know going into the card, people who can go check out the preview show, I think I was saying Al-Bazi would have to get a big finish or a convincing win to even get one, like to be one fight away. I didn't think there's any scenario where he's necessarily getting a title shot his next fight.

But five and only UFC, he has a reputation as a finisher. He now has an official win in the books over Kai Kar-France, interim title challenger, you know, was just challenged with that in his last fight. Perennial top five contender, I think Al-Bazi probably just bumped him out now. I think, I don't know, I didn't check the official rankings. I don't know if Cara France like fell out of the top five or if Albazi just jumped super high. But yeah, it's it's distinctly possible. So this was great matchmaking by the UFC, I think.

This was great work by Albazi's management. They picked just the right guy. Again, it is a bit unfortunate that it wasn't a more definitive performance. Even if you somehow scored the fight for Albaazi as two of the judges did, I had it actually 48, 47 for Cara of France giving KK after the last three rounds. it's a shame that it was more convincing because he is a championship worthy fighter he is a obviously high low

I think he's legitimately a top five flyweight but man it sucks and this kind of ties again to the broader question again it sucks that just the conversation is all about the robbery and not how again I thought the fight was pretty competitive even if it wasn't the most visually appealing

for albazi I thought he landed a lot of good shots in that fight I thought he wobbled KKF a few times. Not like hurt him, but like caught him off balance. And I thought that might be why the judges gave him some of the rounds they did. So he's worthy of it is a very good chance he gets it. I just think though, boy, the reception to him getting a title fight is going to be ice cold. It'll be good if it happens in Abu Dhabi.

I know that's where he wants to go. If it happens somewhere else somehow, boy, he is either going to boot out of the building or worse for the UFC get almost no reaction at all. So my I'm still leaning towards him not getting a title fight next. I do think they make him throw it down with the raw dog first. So it could happen. But if I if I'm guessing, if I have to pick one other will he won't he, I'm going to say it won't. Yeah, I think Pantosia is the key here.

If he wins, I think they'll want to turn him around quickly. You can do Al-Bazi and Abu Dhabi. It doesn't matter what the rest of us think. Those fans are going to look at Al-Bazi like he's a freaking superstar. So he'll be over like Rover there. If Moreno wins, he ain't turned around that quick to fight in Abu Dhabi. That's for damn sure. And then Moreno can go ahead and fight the winner.

So we'll see what happens. Brin Royval, now number four, Amir al-Bazi number three, according to the UFC rankings. I know Mr. Rod Dogg is not happy about that. Kai Kar-France remains in the top five. He drops to number five. But let's move on. Let's talk about something else. They came out of UFC Vegas 74.

The point for round one goes two. Close round. I can't score to 10-10, but New York Rick, gets the first point we get. I'm just glad we have open scoring so I know where I stand right now. That's good. Goodness. Ah, that's great.

10 to 9.999. Now I know to crank it up. I know to crank it up, Mike, which I wouldn't have done if I didn't know to score. Twitter is all sorts of anger right now that we already reveal who won the first round. With MX Platinum, $400 in annual credits

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Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Let's discuss the other thing that came out of UFC Vegas 74, and I'm not talking about anything that happened inside the octagon. Let's talk about the headlines that happened after the event because Dana White, as he typically does, speaks with the media. Dana was simply asked about what is going on with John Jones. That was the question.

What's happening with John Jones? And completely unprovoked, he doubles down on a challenge to tight. to step in the octagon to fight John Jones. He said he will make that fight happen. He will make sure Tyson Fury is compensated to the max. And it will be marketed as a fight to determine the baddest man on the planet. Again, Dana was asked simply about John Jones. Tyson Fury's name didn't even come up in the question.

This is the road he decided to take. So AK, it is very difficult to put ourselves in the mind of a man like Dana White. But how do I put this? So in the most eloquent way possible. What the hell are we doing here? I dreaded when this was mentioned before the show, Mike, that we may end up discussing this. I have so little feelings about this fight.

I know I'm supposed to be the Prince of positivity. And were this fight to manifest in some way, whether it be John Jones going to boxing or Tyson Fury coming to the UFC, which is not going to happen, or some sort of mixed rules about... I'm sure. Listen, I would get excited about it. I would get excited about much, much like with Al Jemaine Sterling and Henry Suuoto. You know, we, you and I are pretty critical of that for a while before that fight was actually booked and it was booked. We're like, well, let's just lean into what makes this fight interesting. One of the greatest, you know, combat sports athletes of all time and, you know, the number one, bent to win the world right now. John Jones says a fury. I mean, it's even more and has even more of an obvious casual appeal. I mean, we're talking about the best heavyweight in boxing of the past decade against, now we know the number one. heavyweight in the UFC right now and a guy who looks like if you want to stick around could probably rattle off four, five, six, seven title defenses if he wants to, as long as the

UFC never booked him against Jelts and Almeida. So very intriguing stuff on, on, on, on, on theory, but man, having to discuss it publicly, really everything with Tyson Fury is just exhausting. Um, the, this weird John Jones non-fewed. Uh, is he, I don't, I guess he's never going to fight Usik, it's really just so dull following updates. I'm glad we don't cover every fear Usook update because if we did and I had to write any of those, I would just be clawing my eyes out. It is just mind-numbing. And I feel a little bit of the same way of discussion of this.

Even fans, fans are smart. I know we joke a lot about bad fans. Sure, there's a segment of bad fans. There's a segment of bad fans in any sport. The majority of combat sports fans are looking at this talk and like, it's not interesting. It's everyone knows, and boxing Tyson Fury would clean John Jones' clock. And a straight MMA fight, John Jones would clean Tyson Fury's clock. And a mixed roles fight, John Jones probably also wins.

Like anything that's not just straight boxing. That's it. There's no questions that need to be answered. It'll be fun. It'll be cool to watch. It'll be fun to see. But there's no questions that need to be answered. So what are we doing, Mike?

We are having a, anytime it comes up, I will just say, it must be a slow newsday discussion because this is just so point. I'm not saying today, not today. This is a great topic for us to talk about on the show. But on the other day, where just randomly some post comes up, whether it's on MAAFinding.com or another site, boy, it is just,

and again, sometimes I'm the guy writing it. I'm just rolling my eyes and hoping that we move on and hoping that John Jones books this frigging fight with Stephen Enochich or an actual UFC heavyweight so we can stop talking about Tyson Fury. Rick, what is this? Yeah, it's very obvious what's happening.

here and it really has very little to do with, I mean, it has a little bit to do with John Jones, but mostly this is about Francis and Ganu. And this is about the fact that Francis and Ganu and John Jones was the fight that everybody wanted and needed to be made and the UFC tried their best to make it happen and could not do it. Francis and Ganu walks out the door and we were promised John Jones versus Steppe Miochich, these are the types of fights that we at the UFC do. And now they're having trouble making that fight. And so they don't have another solution.

The possible solutions are now you start to hear about, wow, Sergei Pavlovich is going to fill in and fight John Jones. And everybody kind of goes groans and says, is that really the fight? Do I really care? That's not what I expected for John Jones. Because now we're on our third option for John Jones. Right now it was Francis and Ganu. And then it was Stephen Miochitz. And now it's potentially Sergei and everybody's going, well, this isn't the John Jones return that I wanted.

And quite frankly, I imagine John Jones is thinking this is not the John Jones return I wanted. So Dana White's doing a little bit of a magic trick where all the actual real options are kind of out the window and there's no motion and nobody cares about those that now he's pivoting to, hey, look at this shiny object over here, which is talking about a fantasy fight that will never happen between John Jones and Tyson Fury. And hey, you know, if you really want to see who's the baddest man on the planet, come over here and he will never come over here. And Tyson Fury is having trouble doing his own fights in boxing. So, yeah, this is a bit of every party kind of using each other for leverage and distracting from the fact that when Francis and Gano went out the door, the number of options for John Jones became extremely limited and they're having trouble making a fight for John Jones. Look, guys, I think we can all agree. MMA can be a weird sport and combat sports can be very strange. Like, we talk on the show all the time how much we enjoy fight circus and the fact that they try weird things and we kind of get into it.

We enjoy weird things. And this idea would do incredibly well on pay-per-view, regardless of how we think this fight would play out. Let me ask you this, do you. What if they actually got this done? We know that they won't. But let's try to live in a world. Enlighten me, if you will.

New York, Rick, what if they can actually get this done? What if Dana White goes live on the UFC social platforms, starts screaming bloody murder that they got this fight done? and Tyson Fury retweets it and says, I'm in, we're doing this. And John Jones respond saying, I'm in. What would your reaction be if they got this done? Wow. Like home run for the UFC Grand Slam.

One of the biggest fights they could have possibly put on because John Jones is a bigger star. Sorry, because Tyson Fury is a bigger star than anybody they could have matched John Jones up against. So I'd be shocked, impressed, you know, start preface. to whatever gods that it actually happens. And John Jones would finish him in about 30 seconds. And everybody would be happy and go home and not have to think about that ever again. And then move on to the next thing. If it were to truly happen where they could convince Tyson Fury,

one of the best boxers of all time currently, in my opinion, the best heavyweight boxer right now and one of the best pound for pound fighters in the world. To enter the octagon to be completely embarrassed by John Jones, I would think A, wow, Endeavor has a lot more money than I thought they had reserved for UFC fights. And congratulations to everybody involved in making it happen because it was impossible. AK, what if they actually got this done? Can you imagine onto the next one the day after? Listen, I'm not buying into this.

It will never have the thing at all. I was I was number one leading the Floyd Mayweather Khan and McGregor will never happen I remember the months or years however long they were talking about that fight I was like it's not going to happen I was like it's a cool thing it's never going to happen

after that I said I will never say something will never happen again in combat sports never again never again and I get it there's people now who go like oh look how much money there was in that though you knew that was going to have that there's so much I think revisionist history around that fight being made

And I'm not saying, I'm not saying there weren't people who did think it would happen. For sure, there were, for sure, people in the media who thought it would happen. But I know there's a lot of fans, and I'm looking at the comments on YouTube right now, a lot of fans who are saying the same thing about McGregor and Mayweather that they're saying right now about Fury and Jones. Oh, it's crazy. Why are we talking about this? It's never going to happen.

I wish, I wish we didn't have to talk about this stuff. But after Mayweather and McGregor, that broke reality. And the fact that it was a massive success, again, guaranteed that reality. would stay broken. If that had somehow bombed, no chance it would have. Maybe we could have had some return to normalcy, but it just shattered everything, right? So if I had told you 10 years ago, Anderson Silva will one day box a YouTube star or some social media star. Why would that happen? That's insane. You would have me committed. And now this is a regular thing. We're regularly talking about like Jake Paul, Logan Paul, whoever, whatever influencer you want to name,

fighting UFC legends, MMA legends, actual boxers. So this business is so crazy. I'm willing to say it won't happen in the UFC. That would really surprise me if they convinced Tessonfrey to step into some sort of cage again, whatever the rules were. That would surprise me. That would be still, I'm still able to be shocked. That would be up there.

But if you're like John Jones and him meeting in a boxing match with the UFC involved like they were with the Mayweather and taking just really just taking a chunk of that change just to let Jones fight. that would not surprise me at all. I wish I could be with you guys and be so adamant that it's not going to happen. But I think once it's spoken into existence, there's a chance something that happens. Maybe after John Jones is done with the UFC, but you can't tell me, you cannot convince me that it's not possible anymore. So, yeah, if it did actually happen, Mike, I would just be like, yep, this is the reality we live in now.

And I'd happily cover it. And I'd happily watch John Jones just get. hummelled for 10 rounds, 12 rounds, however long that that fight was booked for in a boxing room. Yeah, I just want to clarify, obviously, I was talking about this happening in the UFC, right? Like, these fights do happen in boxing. That's the difference. Like, these fights are made in boxing.

These fights do not happen in the UFC. Okay. You get a wash James Tony. That's the best you're going to get in terms of that. You don't get the king of heavyweight boxing coming into the UFC. But I guarantee John Jones will be up for a boxing match. with Tyson Fury based on that payday, but I don't think that's going to happen either,

but I'd be less shocked, but yes, I'm talking specifically about the idea of Tyson Fury undefeated in his prime walking into a cage to be completely, have his pants pulled down, just not in the realm of possibility, not happening ever.

I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Now I don't know. Now you've been so adamant about it. Now suddenly I'm like, gosh, we keep saying these things, never.

We keep saying never. Yeah, highly unlikely. Wouldn't bet on it. Wouldn't bet on it. But gosh, never is such a strong word. Well, let's move on to things that are definitely going to happen. UFC 289 is going to happen on Saturday. And that's where we're going now.

So the point for round two goes to, it's a 2-0 lead for New York Rick. Gets it done. Show me the scores. Show me the scores. It's good to know. That was a little more definitive. But AK, Captain Comeback, Prince of Ponsivity, we can make it happen. I got it.

I got it. the UFC heading back to Canada. UFC 289. We have Amanda Nunes defending her Bannamway title against Arrini Aldana in the main event. New York, Rick, I'll begin with you, because Nunes obviously highly regarded for her career, her legacy, her greatness, et cetera.

I think this is the fight most fans wanted if Amanda was going to defend her title. I think the Giuliana Pena trilogy matchup was kind of met by crickets. This maybe slightly louder. Crickets because this one's not getting any buzz at all. The co-main event seems to be where all the eyeballs and interest are. I guess like why do you think that is New York?

Like, why do you feel like this is being portrayed as this is the Charles Oliva, Benile Daryush card, a fight we're going to get into the next round. And this title fight, I guess, is just kind of also happening to. First of all, the simplicity of just simply louder crickets got me. So congratulations. That was quite nice. Why do I think it's flying under the radar? I think you're 100% right.

I think you're spot on with the idea that Aldana was the fight. They wanted over a third Pena fight. And it was definitely the fight that Amanda Nunes wanted over a third Pena fight. I think she's kind of done doing that back and forth with her. She's dismissing her at every opportunity, Pena that is, at every opportunity. Why is it flying under the radar is because Amanda Nunes is not the rah, look at me, promote the card champion. Never has been.

Never will be. No discredit to her accomplishment. and what she's able to do in the cage, but she's just not a salesperson, right? She's not trying to sell you on a pay-per-view. And Aldana is a bit of the same way, right? She's kind of got, you know, been up and down, kind of now on a streak where she's earned her opportunity,

but not been somebody who grabs the mic and is calling out Amanda Nunes saying, you're ducking me and you can't dodge me the way that Giuliana Pena did, right? That is how Giuliana Pena kind of carved her path to the title. So, yeah, it's just, This is what this fight is. This is a, I personally really like this fight.

I will enjoy this fight. For me, this is a very interesting point in Amanda Nunes's career where how many times can she do this without an opponent that really gets her up? I don't think she's been very impressed by Aldana. Not to say that Aldana is not great, but I don't think she stamped it in any way that made Amanda look and say, okay, I'm worried about this. But how many times can a champion who's been doing that for so long with the one, hiccup against Juliana Payne to do that. And then on the other side of it, you have the Mexican wave that's kind of been in effect. And Ken Aldana be another Mexican champion for the UFC and another from that region,

I think is something real, as well as the fact that you look at her teammate and partner in crime, Alexa Grasso, who she's been training with for so many years, was able to upset a champion who everybody was like, no, she's never going to lose and she's counted out and do it in a way that people didn't expect. I think, you know, this is a more interesting fight and a more compelling fight than many may be thinking about it, but from a headline the marquee, put the faces on the poster, get on the mic and sell it perspective, it's a hard sell. And there's a lot more intriguing in Benile Darius and Charles Olavera. So I don't necessarily think the sentiment is off here. I don't think this is like that people are sleeping on the best fight of the card. I

just think that this is the nature of a lot of the, um, Nuna's title fights and she really needs a foil and, and Pena has been her best version of that. I would argue the most compelling matchup for me has been. It will continue to be, um, Amanda Nunes versus Chris Cyborg or Amanda Nunes versus Kayla Harrison. Those are the fights I really kind of want to see. Um,

but I like this fight. And I think Alana's a real live dog. I looked at the odds and I, and I think they're a little bit off. I, I think there's some value on Al dana. So from a technical standpoint, from a fight perspective, I'm extremely intrigued in this, but I understand why fans are not clamoring

to throw their $80 down for the pay-per-view. AK, why do you think this is? There's like no, I mean, there's literally no reaction to this fight. People talk about it because it's the marquee fight and it's, look, even the graphic for BTL this week made by the wonderful New York Rick is of Amanda Nezorna-Eldan. It's the main event, but look at the numbers on the countdowns. Darius Olivera is like, I don't even know what number

it is in terms of how many times more eyeballs have been on that countdown as opposed to the main event. So why do you think this is the Oliver Darius card and this is just there? Listen, they dropped the ball with the man of Nunes a long time ago. I'll always believe this. Like, listen, she wasn't the, she wasn't the A side of some of these massive drying cards she was on. She was on cards, of course, against Rhonda Rousey. She was on cards with Brock Lesnar. she's been on cards with she's been on cards with massive names but when she won the title

it was like a million bought pay-per-view and then she fought run it that was like a million buys so there was a big chance to do something with all these eyeballs that were on her even though again I know she wasn't the star

and some of it's not the UFC's fault I don't know whose decision it was for her like again not to do the standard sort of champion victory tour after because you know when when Misha Tate won the title she was on the more When Holly home won the tell, she's on the morning shows. And I remember noticing Amanda Nunes was absent, was absent.

Again, it could be her side of it. It could have been she didn't want to do it. It could have been maybe she wasn't super comfortable with doing some of those English interviews because, of course, she speaks English, but doing those kind of situations different. So I don't want to put it all in the UFC. I don't want to put it all in the UFC. But I will say whether it's her fault, the UFC's fault, her management, whoever, a ball was really dropped to make her a star because she beats, you know, she beats,

she beats Ronda Rousey, two of the biggest names. And, you know, in a perfect world, you get the rub from beating those names that just didn't happen with her. And then she continues to have this great run. She beats Cyborg. She beats Cyborg. That doesn't make her a star. And again, a lot of it was I feel like the handling of, I hated, of course, how they handled when she had to withdraw from that fight to get a deal with the nasal condition. I thought right away, there was almost no coming back from that.

Dana White just burying her and blaming her and saying, well, like, oh, you know, a champion. shouldn't do that, shouldn't be out of a fight. I'm never, I'm never booking her in a main event again, which of course he didn't stick with. But at that point, the boss's word has a lot of power. And again, we're already talking with someone who, for whatever reason, wasn't connecting with the fans just based on her own merits. So just a lot of factors went into that. And now, we see sort of this happening with her recent fights. Like the Pena fight, a rival had some juice because Pena beat her the first fight. That was strangely like the best thing that could have happened to her. But now we're back to, I mean,

the trilogy was announced there wasn't a lot of heat around that al dana again a good fighter um a good fighter exciting fighter it's not a huge name and not someone i feel i feel like the casual audience is getting behind i know a lot of us in the media are are pushing al dana as a very very live dog but the average fan just just isn't feeling it um so yeah so they're looking for something else from this car they're looking for listen charles oliver always brings the excitement bennyl darush eight fight win street two guys who again you could have had a rematch with Oliver and Darius. I don't think anyone to...

Sorry, Makachev, no one would have complained. You could even in Darius the title fight, no one would have complained. So they see you guys who should be fighting for a world title. So it almost feels like, you know, world title stakes. And if both guys are to be, you know, are to be believed, they're going to get a toddler shot off of it. So I'm not saying, I don't necessarily agree. Of course, I'm looking forward to both fights. And I think it's always a privilege to watch Amanda Nunes's fight.

Listen, not every champion has exciting fights. You can pick up our end. any champion's resume and pick like three or four title fights are completely forgettable. Amanda's had some of those. I'm not saying she doesn't. But she is, in my estimation, the greatest women's fighter of all time. And this could be her last fight or one of her last fights. And I think we should cherish every chance we get to see her compete.

So not exactly something you could put on a pay-per-view marquee. You know, Amanda might be gone soon. Tune in. I get it. Not a great way to sell. But I hope people appreciate that and appreciate her, at least in retrospect. somewhere down the road if not now. But that's my two cents on.

I want to be really positive by the main event. I'm looking forward to it. Yeah, I think it's an interesting fight. I think one of the things, and I want to get your take on this, AK and then yours as well, New York, Rick, is, you know, she's hinted at, as you said, she's hinted at retirement in the past.

Her reasoning for not retiring after the loss of Julianna Pena, for media was just hilarious and very interesting. But, AK, the legacy is intact. At worst, she is the second greatest woman's fighter of all time. she's number one for me. If she beats Aldana, I think people,

people downgrade storyline to a certain extent because we want to know what's next. And the options ahead of Amanda Nunes are not a plenty. We can do Pena, maybe a rematch with Raquel Pennington. We saw that fight play out. It was not competitive at all. And then from there,

it's like, do we do Holly Holm again? If she beats Meyer Buena Silva? There's just no division here. So, like, what else is there for Amanda Nunes? Like, if she beats Arini Aldana, like, what else can she do? I think that kind of hurts this as well, because if Arina wins, there's more questions. And we'll talk about that in a second as well. But there just doesn't seem to be, like, anything really interesting that's realistic for

Amanda Nunes after this fight. Yeah, listen, a champion's reign is often defined as much by their challenges. We talk about one of the greatest reigns of all time, George St. Pierre. And if you look at it, he got very fortunate. with, you know, his first defense, like early on he beat some of the, his contemporary, some of the big names, you know, he, he, uh, these weren't all title fights at the time, but he beats BJ Penn early on controversial fight. I know, Newark, Rick, please, please let's let this one go. Beats BJ Penn in the first fight. He beats Sean Shirk, he beats Matt Hughes. And then again, ideally, as he's doing this, you know, you have the Walterweight Division coming up and being built up. And then you have challengers, you have guys in other promotions succeeding. Like he fights, he gets to fight like Jake Shields later in his career. And that was a huge fight. And that was a huge fight. because Jake Shields was on a huge unbeaten streak, Strike Force champion. And Amanda Nunes has just not had that kind of luck.

Some of it, again, is the division she's fighting in. Really, 135 and 145 around the world. This isn't just a UFC problem. It's not a super strong division. There's that threshold of if you're an athletic woman at 135, 145, 155 and up, there's a very good chance you're pursuing other sports and not MMA. This is why there's such a drop-off. in the heavier women's division.

And same with the heavier men's divisions. You can look at light heavyweight and heavyweight. We joke about the lack of depth in those divisions all the time. If you're someone in that range and you're healthy and you're good athlete, you're probably going to pursue other sports, just better money. So that's a huge problem that Amanda has faced is that while she was, while she's knocking off Holly Holie home, Misha Tate, Rhonda Rousey, these huge names. There wasn't a lot going on as far as contender development.

And she can't control that. The UFC can't control that. And that is why now we are stuck in the situation where we're talking about a Raquel Pennington rematch after this possibly that nobody really wants to see. It's somewhat intriguing Julianna Pena Trilogy bout. I mean, at least they're one in one. You could sell that. And also, Al-Dana, again, great competitor, but kind of stepping in off of this weird situation off of catchweight bouts. She missed weight the fight before that.

But people want to see it. And, you know, so that's, for me, I always saw at combat sports. That's the most important thing, as much as we like to build up contenders. is there is there do you want to see these two people fight i think it would be a shame if nunez never developed i'm sorry never defended her title against arena al dana so i'm glad we're getting it however we got it but yeah after this this division just doesn't have and featherweight if you want to call that a division nothing at 135 or 145 is a super attractive compelling matchup which is why this retirement talk is uh i think is so prominent right now

New York, do you think just the lack of a division plays a role in this too? Because we like to talk about the what's next. So if this person wins and or this person wins like we know what's next, this fight, we really have no idea because there just isn't much of a division and anything that's realistically possible we've seen once or twice already. So is that part of this too? It's definitely part of it. I don't think there's blame to go around.

You know, I think a lot of people in a scenario like this are going to be looking for blame. Like, is it the U.S.C.'s fault? Is it Amanda's fault? Is it the lack of competitive? I don't think it's anybody's fault. I think this is just the scenario we're kind of in. Amanda Nunes reminds me of certain fighters from the past. She reminds me of Stepe Miochich in the fact that she never really was one who wanted to do the things presented to her and take the spotlight and grab it.

She just wanted to go away, live her life, and then come back and fight. And that's not a way to sell lots of pay-per-views. That's a way to be a great long-reaning champion and be a great fighter, but that's not a way to make yourself a marketable, bankable star. And she reminds me of Demetrius Johnson in the sense that she's been clearing out her division for a long time and we're just running out of compelling matchups and the most interesting fights for her outside of the UFC. To be quite frank, like I think it would be a good split between her and the UFC. Like I think there's much more interesting things for her outside of it.

and I think there's better opportunities for her outside of it. And then you look at the UFC who kind of like reluctantly has to make her headline paper views where they know that they're not going to potentially sell very well, when in reality it'll probably be better in a co-main slot underneath a different title fight. It doesn't seem like the right fit and it doesn't seem like the right timing. Like I think the nobody's to blame and we're just in the scenario that we're in where there's not compelling matchups for her. When they do get climbed the mountain top,

she dispatches of them relatively easily and then we move on. And it reminds me of Demetrius Johnson, where it might just be that this is just the wrong time and the wrong division and maybe it's time to look elsewhere. So, yeah, whether it's retirement, see, I feel weird about the retirement conversation because I feel like it's almost retirement just because there's not a challenge because of how good she is and how good she is of dispatching of those number one contenders. But I think there are challenges out there. I wouldn't mind seeing Cyborg run back. I like the Kayla Harrison fight. I really like the Kayla Harrison fight. And I would love to see her up against those competitions.

So I don't think it's that there's a lack of available competition in the MMA landscape. I just think the UFC at this moment is not the right place. And I would like to see Amanda Nunes doing something else, if I'm being honest. And quite frankly, I don't know if the UFC gets enough out of an Amanda Nunes headlined paper view that they can continue to do this and make it make business sense. So maybe it's time for a clean split and figure something out. because she's holding two division belts that are not going to draw any money on pay-per-view.

Yeah, and I don't even know why the Featherweight title is a thing. But so what's so what's better for business, De Eukrik? A Nunes winner and Al-Dana win? Because if Aldana wins, Anunas doesn't want to go quietly, they're probably just going to run this one back. So like, what's better? Aldana.

An Adana win because now you've got Brandon Moreno, Yaya Rodriguez, Alexa Grasso, I ran Aal Dana and you've got something really special in the making and you can continue to talk about that and use the combined efforts of it to talk about Mexican MMA. And then for Amanda Nunes, you know, you can look for something compelling for her. It's much more interesting after she was more interesting after she lost to Giuliana Pena, right? That was when it was like, oh, wow, is Amanda Nuna slipping? And then she comes back and dominates and it's clear that that was an off night.

I think it would be more interesting for both parties if Aldana won, and I think it'd be more bankable for the UFC to be able to package their bevy of Mexican champions together and kind of trot that out, then it would be for just another 50-45 Amanda Nunes decision. AK, do you agree, and Aldana win is better for business here? Yeah, it's hard to argue against it. As much as I'm saying, I wish we could sell Amanda Nunes being the women's coat on its own merits. and just having that, you know, be something to try and, you know, 300,000, 400,000 pay-per-view buys. It isn't. It hasn't.

Again, the most we talked about in a men of Nunes, Tile Defense in either division in the last few years was the Juliana Pena rematch, right? That's just a fact. I do think they would give her an immediate rematch again. As New York, New York Creek said, if they ever want to do that Mexico card, they have so many options. And her rematching Pena in Mexico as the champion in Springabella would be absolutely phenomenal. nominal. And listen, there's also the possibility that I'll run down the win. Let's say it doesn't lead to a rematch and like a man of Nunez retires.

That would kind of clear things up as well. I'm not saying Amanda Nunez is bad for business. I hate to frame it that way. But when you have someone who has just been so indomitable. And again, some of these performances, like it almost feels like she fights down to the level of her competition. You know, it's like we know she's the best, but it's not the same as like watching peak rousey, you know, run through her opponent. in 20 seconds. You know, that's just not who Nunes is sometimes.

She can. She's had some great first round finishes. But again, some nights, that's just not who she is. So it just might be better if, one, if her, if she lost and said, I'm done, I'm retiring. And then they just closed, frankly, closed down the featherweight division. Sorry for anyone who, any women fighters out there who are chasing that title, but I can't imagine there's too many. And then, yeah, it would make Aldana, you know, give Aldana a fresh run of challengers. Mackell Pennington definitely gets a shot right away.

She beat Aldana a few years ago. It has to be Aldana winning. Again, this is with all due respect to the champion. And I don't want to say the UFC is leaning either way. But if you're the matchmakers, you definitely feel like you're going to have more options and more compelling storylines if Amanda drops the title again. Well, that's the main event, everybody.

And you can watch it with us at the UFC 289 Watch Party. coming up on Saturday night. Let us move on or will we not move on? Is this the shortest BTL of all time? The point for round three goes to the Prince of Positivity. He's on the board. It's two to one.

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great for a place, or C4.A. or magazine. Well, let's go to the people's main event of Saturday, the co-main event, Charles Olivera, the former lightweight champion in the world,

taking on Benil Daryush, and I want to throw back to a question that headlined heck of a morning this morning because I think it's a fair question to ask A.K., kind of a two-parter because there's just so many interesting storylines and things that can happen here. But Benile Darius has done more than enough to get a title shot here.

This fight probably should not even be happening. Daryush should just be going ahead and fighting Islam Makachov for the belt in October. But this fight is in fact happening on Saturday. Does Darius have the most to lose on Saturday of anybody else on this entire card? And is Saturday due or die for his title hopes at 155? Because remember, this is not Bellator.

This is not the PFL where you can come back next season. This is the UFC. And if he loses this fight to Charles Olivera, how detrimental is this to him in his run at a title? I'm hesitant to say he has the most to lose. I still want to say Nunes losing the world championship would mean something. I get it. I know people are saying, well, whether she wins or loses, her legacy is set.

She's the greatest. But it's a world title. It's a world title. I do think she still cares about it. I don't think any champion ever gets tired of, like, defending their title. They might get worn out from the wear and tear of, you know, being on top and everyone gone in for you. But I'll still say losing the world title, there's no bigger stakes than that, regardless of whether, the amount of Nunes' legacy is set in stone.

So I'll put it below that. But I understand why the question is asked. And the other reason I'm going to say Nunes has lost to be worse, because I am optimistic, no matter what happens to B'Neil Dereyush on Saturday, it will not remove him from the lightweight equation. Whether he gets finished the first round, whether he loses a lopside decision, whether he loses a competitive decision, whatever it may be, I want to believe he's built up enough currency with the UFC.

Let me say I had no problem with him getting skipped over for the Volkanowski fight. Not because he doesn't deserve it. I would have loved to see Darius get a title shot. But for me, it's like when you can make a super fight happen, you just do it. If the timing is right, you know, the timing was right for Volkanowski, Makachev. I know people would have said like, oh, couldn't we have seen Makachiev defended a few more times first and fight Volknovsky in a real, real super fight between two, you know, long-reigning champions. And yeah, that would have been great.

But this is combat sports. You can't really fluts around with it. So it's a miracle, I think, that that fight. was booked on, you know, fight night. No, no hits in between. We got to see in October. It was a great fight. Whoever you thought won, it was great fight.

So I'm glad that happened. Sucks for Darius. Sucks for Darius. And they'll suck for Darius big time if it loses Charles Olivaire. Because, yes, it pushes him back. But, but I don't think it removes him. I don't think the UFC is just like waiting to, you know, to see Bineal lose. Then go like, oh, thank gosh.

Like, we don't have to talk about this guy again in the contender picture. We can factor him out. He's a great company. guy. He puts on exciting fights. Again, no complaints. The infamous, I'll fight 10 times again, if I have to to earn a title shot. I'm sure that UFC loves that. And the good thing is, I don't think they'll make him do that. I don't think they'll make him do that. I actually think he's at the level where if he loses, obviously, he's not, he's nowhere close to number one contender, but he's already on the short list. He's on the short list. And if something happens, they'll throw him in.

We've seen people get title fights off of losses before, you know, if they were able to step in as a replacement. And I think Darius has earned that. I actually think you could see him if so many names in front of him. Oh, I just almost knocked something over my desk. If so many names in front of him fell out for whatever reason, I think it's entirely possible Daryush can get a title shot. So I'm going to be super, super prints of positivity here and say even if he doesn't win, and I know a lot of people think he will, even if he doesn't win, it's not over. for Benile, there's ways that he can still get a teloshot and as early as next year. So a lot of pressure, I'm not saying it's not a lot of pressure.

I'm not saying it's not important. And I'm not saying that he doesn't guarantee himself a teloshot, whatever that means, if he beats Charles Olivera. But for me, a loss for Benile is not the end of the world. At least I hope that's how the UFC views it because he deserves a teloshot someday. New York, are you as optimistic as AK is? No, not even close. A loss for Benile would be absolutely catastrophic.

He would not get a title shot as far as I can see in the immediate future. There's a lot of names that have headlined cards before. Like they are making a fight between Justin Gaichi and Dustin Porre for an artificial belt. You know, to coincide, to run parallel to this fight between Charles and Benile. And I could imagine very easily one of those guys hopping into the fight. fight. B'Neil reminds me of Tony Ferguson before him. He reminds me of Leon Edwards before he finally did kind of get that opportunity. He reminds me of Balaamah, Muhammad, where he's somebody who's good enough to be in a co-man, good enough to be on the rise. And if we're in that position,

we can give them a title shot. But he is not somebody that I think they will gleefully push to the top. I think a loss would be absolutely catastrophic. And in concert with that, is there was a time in Benile Darius's career where he was frustrated by the lack of opportunities and had already talked to retirement and continues to talk about, you know, this is one last run and talk like that. I don't see him strapping it back up and climbing the mountain top again. This is the shot and it would be unfortunate if it didn't culminate with a title shot because I think he deserved it before this, although I think the word deserves an MMA is stupid and I shouldn't have used it. But I think he had done enough in his resume to be a title contender. It would be a shame if he didn't get that opportunity,

but I do not see it the same way as AK. I think if he loses this, there will not be another path back to the title before ahead of guys like Alexander Volcanowski, ahead of guys like Justin Gaichi, a head of guys like Dustin Pori, ahead of guys like Charles Oliva. There are just too many names who have been bankable stars for the UFC headlining cards, headlining paper views that it does not seem feasible for Benile Darius with a loss to get back there. So not as optimistic as my colleague. Michael Chandler, maybe Connor McGregor if he wants him back to 155. Like that puts him way back.

He falls far. He falls far. Rick, if Darius wins, it's a no-brainer. We know it happens. And on the flip side of the first topic, if Oliverer wins, he seems very confident that the UFC is just going to chuck them back in there with his Lamakache for a chance to regain the belt back in Abu Dhabi, the scene of the crime the first time, which I'm not so sure about. But in your mind, what happens if Oliver wins? Like, where does he go? How much of a chance

do you give him getting a rematch with Mokachev if he wins on Saturday? And if it's not Olivera, how the hell do they pivot for Islam Mokachev and Abu Dhabi? Yeah, he's in the running. So we're saying if Charles wins, right? If Charles wins. If Charles wins. Yeah, I think he's definitely in the running. I think there's not a lack of good options, right? If Charles wins definitively, if Charles goes out there and smokes Benile Darius in the first round, I think he puts himself in the driver's seat. Then they wait to see what happens with Dustin and Justin. I think Dustin is a fresh matchup, even though he's had two title shots before.

You could put Dustin in there. And then let's say Justin wins. Now you've got a conversation to be had between do we give Justin another shot? Do we give Charles another shot? Both not bad options. I think you can put those guys in with a fight with Islam-Makachev and sell it. You've got Alexander Volcanowski on the sidelines. You've got the fight between Connor McGregor and Michael Chandler.

If Connor wins, I think there's no doubt he's going to skip everybody, but maybe he wants a title shot at 170. I think they've got a lot of options, including B'Neil and including Charles. I think both of them, whoever wins that fight, that they're not in a rush to make a decision there. They can kind of see how the next couple of months play out and then determine that. Obviously, Connor and Chandler would be after. right, Connor and Chandler would be after we settle our business in Abu Dhabi.

But there's a list of contenders that they are growing in that division. And I don't think there's any bad options there. So yeah, Charles will put himself, I think, in the driver's seat for that opportunity, dependent upon how Justin and Dustin look. But yeah, there's how special Charles Alivera's title run was and the buzz about him online and the number of fans that he has, I think that would be a huge misstep to count him out of the title just because of how he looked in the fight against Islam. So, yeah, I think he'd be right in the driver seat with a win.

AK, are you as optimistic? Driver's seat? Do you think he's in the driver's seat if he wins this fight? He's in the driver's seat, but I mean, we know that that car can, you can get side-swiped in the UFC at any moment. I don't think either guy is guaranteed anything. I love the talk of it. I love them being pretty confident that, like, oh, if I went on Saturday, I know for sure,

like or now I'm really I'm really going to raise a stink this time if I went on Saturday I don't get a teleth shot but you've mentioned gosh you mentioned the Connor McGregor you mentioned the Michael Chandler bomb I mean it's so stupid because their fight isn't even booked yet we know it's happening at 170 and somehow the winner of that could like sneak into a lightweight telet shot and I'm not questioning you I'm questioning like that this is that this has essentially been like it feels like this has been said it feels like this is a realistic possibility it feels like there's a segment of fans who wouldn't mind it we know there's a huge We know the casual segment. If Connor McGregor beat Michael Chandler, they'd love to see him fight at Islam, Machachab, instead of Banyal Daryush or Charles Oliver. That's just a fact. It's a horrible fact, but it's just a fact. So I want to say that Charles Olivera should be guaranteed another shot

because his reign was so fun. Even the fight with Machachab, I get it. You know, pretty clear win for Makachev all the way up to the finish. but I still, I'm like, I still want to see more. I still feel like, let me see him clear Charles Oliver twice that way because I think Machiav is great, but I also think beating a guy who I think is a star and like an all-timer and Charles Olivera twice would be enormous. But there's just no guarantees for guys like Charles and for guys like Benile.

Let's not forget, Charles himself had to win, I think, eight straight, right, before getting his title five, eight or seven or eight straight. He was by no means, he was never the UFC's. number one choice. He was not a guy that they were like, you know, actively pushing. I didn't feel like it until they, again, Porre and Gachie got their shots. They were out of the way. And then he later got to defend against them. But they were the first choice guys, just as they are over B'Neil. So like I said, as optimistic as I am, that B'Neil could get a title shot down the road and and Charles still could get a rematch down the road.

I don't know if anything puts them above again a guy like McGregor if he gets that win assuming that fight happens. The fight with Chandler happens within a reasonable amount of time. So you know me guys, trying to be positive here, try it positive, but got to be a little bit realistic. Either guy, again, you know, Greg, you said it. This word should just be, we should just bleep it out on the podcast version. It deserves.

Either guys deserve more than deserves a shot or another. shot of the title. And I don't think anything that happens, though, on Saturday makes it, makes Dana White, you know, show up at the press conference and say, yep, definitely going to book one of these guys next to the lightweight title. No, you're going to, you're going to get, a healthy serving of we don't make, we don't make fights on fighting. You get a lot of that. So, sucks. I don't really agree with that. I just think the timing of Abu Dhabi makes it much easier. Like, it's not like the Blah Muhammad thing where you could say it all you want. Like, even, even after he beat go of Burns, Dana was like,

like, oh yeah, 100% he's getting next. Is that true, though? Like, we don't even know when Leon versus Colby's going to happen. If Hamzat actually fights Usman at 170 and Shamiyev wins that fight, you think they're going to get Bilal the title shot over Hamzat Shemayev? No chance that happens. And if Connor does fight Michael Chandler at 170, whoever wins that fight if they want to remain at 170 jumps in head of Bilal Mohammed.

So I actually think the timing is in its favors Benil Darius much more than if he was Bilal Muhammad. That's why I hated doing Bolanahman. That's why I hated doing Bala Muhammad versus Gilbert Burns at 288 because it made no sense. The timing of it made no sense because so much can happen between then and where this fight's even going to happen. It's which right now, maybe November, maybe December we get Leon versus Colby.

Like so much can happen between now and then. But we'll see how this all plays out. I feel pretty confident Darius wins. It's going to be like, hey, if you want your title shot, you have to do it in October or you're just not going to get it. We're just going to call good old Mikey Chandler. up because you know he'll do it and then fight Connor after that. But let's move on, AK, real quick.

We know Danny Gaye v. Nate Landware rules. I think we all love the Nasdaenian Nemov, Chris Curtis fight as well. I think of the fights we've talked about, those are the top four. But which other fight in this card has you intrigued the most outside of those? Man, I'm super intrigued by Miranda Maverick and Jasmine Jazz DeVisios. I don't have a great gauge for where Jasmine is as a prospect, as it were. she's not like super young and age-wise she is obviously in m-m-ma mileage you know doesn't have a ton of experience there but i see i think anyone who's watched her and again maybe there's a little canadian bias here

we're kind of always looking for that next certain canadian standout we've got quite a few competing on on saturday who i hope have long lengthy careers as professionals but again she's in division one of the divisions i think there's a lot of room for upward mobility I haven't seen the odds. I assume she's a pretty, I'll take a quick glance. I assume she's a pretty healthy. She's a pretty sizable dog. She's a Miranda Maverick.

And that's understandable. Listen, Miranda Maverick, as inconsistent as she's been, is super young and has fought really good names. It's not like she's inconsistent because she's just, you know, having middling results against the, you know, the bottom half of the 125 division. She's already fought some really good names, people who we think could be future champions. And that doesn't remove her from that conversation. I think a lot of people still like her chances. But that's what I want to see. That's what I see.

Because I think, I think Jezevisius, I think she's only one in one so far. But I like what I've seen from her for the most part. And I think this is a legitimate test for Maverick. And like from Random Maverick, if she is the real deal, if we do want to kind of get her back in that conversation of sort of those blue chippers because a lot of names leapfrogged her. Then I'd want to see her just run through Zazovias. Again, either super convincing 3027, like 3026 decision or or. or get a statement finish. So that's what I want to see if Maverick wins.

And Jezevi's any sort of win for her over Miranda Maverick would be like enormous and really get her moving up that $125. So yeah, I'm actually really intrigued by that one on the prelims. Yeah, Miranda Maverick, minus 2.95. A lot of people giving up on a manna. Miranda Maverick, which I find is pretty puzzling since she's 25 and about to turn 26. Like she's not even near athletic prime yet. New York, where are you at? What's the outside of the top four?

What would you say is like the number five? most intriguing fight at UFC 289. Yeah, I could, you know, do the argument about Amavov and Curtis being compelling and needing the whim. Sorry, you said outside of the top four. I'm not allowed to pick the top floor. Yeah, outside of those four fights, the main, the co-main, Curtis Imov and I gay landware. What's, what's number five?

Yeah, it's going to be, I would see, my order is different. I'm looking at it on Wikipedia. I'm then I was going to say, I'm all in on Nate Landware. where like let's just you know do that because he's the man um but then it's going to be mike i'm talking more about like just how you rank them in terms of intrigue yeah it was well again i'm looking at the prelim headliner for me is a mavov and curtis um yeah which to me is very compelling um but i don't know if i'm allowed to take it i'm i'm confused at the rules i miss no i would say i'm like of the of the fights that people are like most excited about on this

card. It would be like in no particular order be main event, co-main event, Ege Landware, and Curtis Emaboff. So those are like the four fights, everyone universally are like, okay, these are the four fights we're going to pay the most attention to. Okay. So then let's go Mike Malat versus Adam Fuget because it's a culmination of something for Malad. He was on the MMA hour this morning and he was talking about being in the stands watching UFC 129 and watching GSP versus Shields in the stadium and he's the last Canadian on the card he's going to get a huge pop he's an absolute monster finisher like I feel like that's building to something that could really set a great tone for

the co-main um and then you kind of like hopefully that bount is off like Nate landware's craziness and that potentially awesome fight with Dan Uge so yeah I'm I think it's gonna I think it's gonna have a nice little moment um with Mike Malad and hopefully he can come through and deliver the finish that he's that he's looking for uh as a culmination of something for the Canadian MMA fans because I think that's going to be pretty awesome. Yeah. Mike, I was going to say, if you want to make it easier for us,

you should have said, what is your favorite fight featuring a Canadian? Because then that would have been outside of the, with a posse to David DeVorek, Stephen Urquig and Belmonton, Oliver, you could have just said, what's the best fight featuring a Canadian? Because there you go. That would have given us. There still would have had a few options. I thought for sure someone was going to say Erii Lang versus Ariel Hawani.

Shout out, Sidney. It's a hobby. But yeah, that's UFC 289. We'll talk more about that tomorrow. Preview show, Weigh and show. Jose Young's is in the Great White North in Vancouver, bringing you all the coverage. Press conference later on today.

We'll get you ready. So the point for round four goes to, he's been here for years, kids, so don't call it a comeback. Alexander Kaylee. We are all tied up. Thank you, my best friend. I think you confuse Newark Rick with some of the rules there.

As we know, hashtag rules rule. I'm a master of understanding rules. So I knew as soon as you kind of gave that convoluted question, I'm like, I got this. I like New York Rick already looks. I can see his eyes glazing over already. So I was like, I got this one. It's amazing because your lack of knowledge of the rules for the first two questions that were cost you the first two points.

But now we're sharper and getting into it. And that's how this all worked out. So that means it is time for the knock around. One question will decide at all. Each participant will have 60 seconds to answer said question. Scott McCraight had sent in an interesting topic, but the more I thought about it, the more I realized we're not going to go with this

because the contractual, he wanted to compare the UFC to like, like, MMA and put it in a live golf PGA tour perspective. Like if an anomaly came along and was like, we're going to pay fighters hundreds of millions of dollars to just leave the UFC and come join us. It doesn't really work that way because of how the fighters are locked down in their contracts

as opposed to the PGA. It's like year by year. And you can just leave and, go as you choose at the end of each year. So can't really do that. Maybe I'll find a way to twist that into something interesting down the road. But I just think there's a pertinent question. I think Ariel Hulani's conversation with Brennan-Lachnade kind of put this on my radar.

And I know it's a topic we talk about all the time. But I'm really curious to hear what both of you guys have to say about this right now on this day. AK, you are the champion, which means you get the champion's prerogative. Do you want to go first or do you want to pass it on over to New Yorkerick? Mike. I already know this. I've got a thirst to go first. I got to go first.

If the poll is ready to vote on, you should probably just vote for AK now after that wonderful rhyme. So look, this just keeps coming up and we're going to continue to do so. But Aaron Hawani had a nice spirit of debate with, I believe it was Brennan-Nak-Nayn yesterday on the MMA hour. I was my day off. So I just saw a clip of this on somebody's Twitter feed. but the conversation about the number two MMA promotion right now. Ariel Hawani felt very confident that PFL is number two. And the big reason why is because they have found a way to sort of differentiate

themselves from Bellator and at least bring something a little more unique and indifferent to the product as opposed to like to Bellator where Jed calls them PFL light, but at least Belator does the Grand Prix and stuff like that. In 60 seconds or less, AK, are you as confident as Ariel is that, PFL is the number two promotion right now or do you think Bellator has a better case like where are we at right now? Because the UFC is so far ahead and there's just

no direct competition for them right now. But I know the Francis deal but one of the points Ariel brought up is like Bellator has this card coming up next Saturday. It's a really good one but there's no buzz but the PFL is on tonight and there's like less buzz for tonight's card than there is for the Bellator card next week. So

who is number two in terms of buzz and hype? One minute on the clock go. Yeah. Yeah, listen, I got to agree with Brendan Locknain and Ariel. I do lean towards the PFL. I get what you're saying, my best friend, that there's people who literally don't know there's a card going on as we record this. But I think when you're making these comparisons, comparing promotion and promotion, you can't go, you can't be so granular and go card by card. It's really like what promotion dominates the overarching discussion.

And there's no question over the past six months besides the UFC. It has been the PFL with the Francis stuff. With again, I just think they do a great way. The drug testing, listen, the drug testing, that's a bad headline. But at least that's something that wouldn't have even registered with people two years ago. I guess the fact that it's news means something. So that's a bad publicity, go publicity and all that. But also, they're right that you can, if someone asks you describe the PFL, you can describe pretty quickly what differentiates it with a million dollar prize.

Now they have France Gondon, they got Jake Paul. They got a tournament system. You can't do that with Belator as great as the cards are. So Belator, hardcore delight, putting together doing great stuff, the PFL and the public eye right now, number two. All right, Newark, do you agree with that? Is it PFL? Is it Belator? No. Are they too close together? Is it somebody else? Root nearerick, go, go, go, go, go. No, it's actually none of them. There is no number two. They're all not even in the running. It's the UFC and then everybody else. And the fact that they're all tripping over themselves to tear it out and be number two is quite frankly,

embarrassing. They shouldn't be caring or shooting for it. There is no number two promotion because they're all in the scope of the global MMA market mostly irrelevant to many fans, not watched, and they need, they have a lot of work to do to be number two. There is no number two because none of them have done a good enough job. So you can talk about here, let's pull up Don Davis's little spreadsheet here, five years in existence for PFL, 14 for Bellator. The PFL's got, you know, technology. Smart Cage Data Odds AI score, so that puts them. The real answer is they should all stop pushing this narrative about being number two because it's irrelevant and it doesn't matter.

And if nobody's watching, it doesn't matter if you're number two or number 20. Stop giving this any air. Stop giving this any breath and build a competent organization. There you go. AK with a big smile. How can you? Well, I was like, Rick's doing pretty well here. And then he brought up the graphic.

And I'm like, I thought you were trying to fend your case. then you bring up the graphic you're shooting yourself in the foot I was just bringing it up to talk about how much of a joke it is no it's a great one championship 80% Asian did you know that 80% I knew that it was on the graph

it was on the graphic I had seen that 25 countries in the PFL but there's just so many MMA debates that I just don't want to have and don't care about I just well you come to the right show you come to the right show in New York if you guys

No, I want to debate you about them, but I don't want to debate the actual content of it. I don't want to debate who's number two, but I want to have a debate with you about debating who's number two. Does that make sense? It's meta. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I would hope our viewers and listeners feel the same way. We should have so much fun as a special guest analyst to break down the graphic, because we brought the graphic up and spent like 35 minutes on the graphic last week. It was my favorite segment in the history of the show.

I've never seen Belcher doing anything like that I'll tell you that much I've never seen Belta or anything like that Yeah if Scott Cochre if if I see a graphic like that On Scott Coker's Twitter page I'm gonna lose my shit Like I might just follow the floor And I might just leave

I might just leave the sport altogether Is there like a trophy or something That when they have finally proven their case That they're number two Does somebody like send them something Like what is the point of this Explain it to me What happens at that point?

Listen I have learned Now that I've become a hardcore football fan over the last like 10 months. I've realized there's all these like lower tier trophies that like get celebrated. Shoutouts, shoutouts West Ham winning the Europa Conference League trophy, their first trophy in 46 years by that.

And I realized like these like are, and I'm not being, I'm not being facetious now. Like it does weirdly mean something to, to be in the running when you know you are not, you have zero chance of ever, you know, winning that top, top, top trophy champion, like Champions League,

which is happening on Saturday. So I guess it, a twisted way, this is what we, where we are with other promotions in MMA, is like, yeah, you can really only aspire to be number two, barring something incredibly strange happening to the entire world of combat sports and UFC somehow losing its lead, which is just, it's, you know, nine billion miles ahead of every other promotion. So I guess it does be something. I would love a trophy, a second place. I would point to another tweet by Don Davis where he alluded to the fact that the UFC was

blockbuster and pfl was Netflix and sorry Netflix and blogbuster um and I would I would point you to the fact that they're overlooking you know the the impending doom of the UFC and then the PFL rising and becoming Netflix so you know just food for thought maybe maybe they can be number one maybe they're selling yourself short I think Bellator's number two by process of elimination right now because they're the only one just sitting back letting all these other promotions just put out graphics and and fake numbers and failures so I think they win by proxy So congratulations. They're not above it.

Number two. They're not above it, Mike. They're not above it. Come on. They got to get in. Get in the mud. Look, they do. Look, they do things behind that,

but they do it behind the scenes. Like, the things that they do that are kind of ridiculous are like behind that. Like, they're not on public. You know what I mean? I actually just registered an LLC and created a company and I'm actually the number two promotion. I have founded it and started it. And I've decided.

Wow. I'm going to put out my graphic tomorrow. It's happening. I wish, I wish there was a promotion out there. They just call themselves like number two MMA. Thank you. And to MMA.

I would love the N2MA promotion. Number two, we're number two. Our goals to be the number two is. Well, it's happening. Okay, me and you. The number two is a portion in the field. I was like, can you imagine a fighter, a fighter putting out of graphic saying,

I'm the second baddest man on the planet. This is why. I'm so number two. I'm so much more number two than any of you other number two. I'm number two. Oh, my God. Just incredible stars. I'm glad this thing had enough likes to carry over into a second week.

Casey is here, which means the votes are probably tallied. Do we have a winner? Are we good? We definitely have a winner. We definitely have a winner. All right. Your winner today with 57% of the votes is a new champion. New York.

Rick gets it done. What a battle. I mean, just a spirited battle. New York Rick gets the victory, AK, it's better to have won a championship than to never won one at all. I just want to say the difference between number two, me, and number three is huge.

I just want to make that clear. I am number two by a mile. I just want that to be clear. Definitively number two. Unbelievable. Let's see. He did it. He did it.

He did it already. New York, Rick, congratulations. I know how much this means to you. Why don't you tell the folks so much. You know what you want to talk about. It means a lot. Thank you for having me, Mike. More than anything, you know, obviously the voting was rigged

and shouldn't have gone to me, a K, had a much better performance. And I'm kind of disappointed in the fans, as I have always been. There's been a lot of these in a row that I've won and don't think I deserved any of them. But you know what? That's not really important, the wins and losses.

It's more about the time spent. And I had such a good time with all of you guys, and I love you guys so much. And AK, like, you know, I know we had to debate, but truly you're my brother. And we talk about, you know, Fast and the Furious franchise stuff behind the scenes, which, you know, sustains me and gives me life. I have kids, but I'd rather do that, you know, if I'm being honest. So thank you for this experience.

Everybody involved in this, Casey, Mike. It's a great show. It's a great program. And congratulations, AK, on being number two and third is so distant from you that they can't even be seen. It feels good. And let me tell something. This promotion, 100% Asian. I'll tell you that right now, 100%.

So beat that. Beat that. Hit the music, Casey. I hope you stop the poll because I think AK is about to get a whole bunch of votes after that final comment. So we are done. We'll be back tomorrow. We got heck of a morning tomorrow morning. We got Way and Show AK.

Get excited for that. It's like it's your birthday all over again. Preview show 3 p.m. Eastern. And then we'll get you ready for Saturday. People's Free Fighters. show we get the watch party on to the next one on Sunday. It's going to be a very busy weekend. And of course, Floyd Mayweather is boxing John Goddie the third on Sunday. Who knew? Who knew? And we'll talk all about it next week right here on Between the Links.

Thank you, Casey. The iconic voice of Mr. Let's go to you home. Good night, everybody. This has been Between the Links, an M.A Fighting Production on the Vox Media Network.