MMA Fighting - BTL | PFL-Bellator Merger, PFL World Championship, UFC Vegas 82, More

Episode Date: November 23, 2023

The PFL has officially absorbed Bellator MMA in a blockbuster deal made official on Monday morning, and then PFL co-founder Donn Davis joined Ariel Helwani on The MMA Hour to answer a lot of the burning questions surrounding it. While the news is certainly big, did Davis do himself and the promotion a disservice with some of the things he said? On a special Thanksgiving edition of Between the Links, MMA Fighting's Mike Heck and Jed Meshew discuss the deal a few days later and what it all means, Davis suggesting PFL now a "co-leader" with the UFC, why Dana White likely isn't worried about it, and how feasible the structure is for the PFL moving into 2024. Additionally, they discuss the Friday's PFL World Championship card, the $49.99 price tag, Brendan Allen's UFC Vegas 82 main event win over Paul Craig, how close Allen is to a title shot, what they're thankful for in MMA, and much more. Follow Mike Heck: @MikeHeck_JR Follow Jed Meshew: @JedKMeshew Subscribe to MMA Fighting Check out our full video catalog Like MMA Fighting on Facebook Follow on Twitter Read More: http://www.mmafighting.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Support for this show comes from the Audible Original, the downloaded two, ghosts in the machine. The Earth only has a few days left. Rosco Cudulian and the rest of the Phoenix colony have to re-upload their minds into the quantum computer, but a new threat has arisen that could destroy their stored consciousness forever. Listen to Oscar winner Brendan Fraser reprise his role as Rosco Cudulian in this follow-up to the Audible Original Blockbuster. The Downloaded, it's a thought-provoking sci-fi journey where identity, memory, and morality collide. Robert J. Sawyer does it again with this much-anticipated sequel that leaves you asking, What are you willing to lose to save the ones you love?

The Downloaded 2, Ghosts in the Machine. Available now, only from Audible. Support for this show comes from the Audible original The Downloaded 2, Ghosts in the Machine. The Earth only has a few days left. Rosco Cudullian and the rest of the Phoenix colony have to re-upload their minds into the quantum computer, but a new threat has arisen that could destroy their stored consciousness forever. Listen to Oscar winner Brendan Fraser reprise his role as Rosco Cudulian in this follow-up to the Audible Original Blockbuster, The Downloaded. It's a thought-provoking sci-fi journey where identity, memory, and morality collide.

Robert J. Sawyer does it again with this much-anticipated sequel that leaves you asking, what are you willing to lose to save the ones you love? The downloaded two, Ghosts in the Machine, available now, only from Audible. From the Vox Media Podcast Network. From M.A. Fighting Studios, this is Between the Links. And now, your host, my... The iconic voice of Esther Lynn welcomes you to a... brand new Thanksgiving Day edition of Between the Links.

Thank you for joining us. Hope you're having a wonderful week. If you're celebrating, hope you're having just the best Thanksgiving ever. A couple of things I want to discuss right off to that. One, you can hear it in my voice, very sultry, very Barry whitish, not by design. Some might call it sexy. Yeah, maybe. Some might.

Maybe. Maybe you're turning me up a little bit more this time around. It's not by choice. It is Mother Nature just clobbering me with allergies. Just the low country way. It never goes away. And then twice a year, it just kicks you right in the ding-ding. And that is what is going on right now.

So that I just want to just forgive the voice. If I crackle a little bit, you're just going to have to deal with it. Two, we're recording this busting open the curtain here on a Tuesday. So if something happens on Wednesday or Thursday morning, too bad. It's on at MAPFutting.com. There's no way for us to react to it. But we wanted to make sure we got a show in. We certainly weren't going to do a live show on Thanksgiving,

but we wanted to give you something. Joining me, you can hear his laughter in the background. Mr. Hot Take, Mr. No Gray area. The man behind Dan, they were good. Exciting episode coming out this week as well. The co-host of No Betzbarred and many other things here on the M.A. Fighting Podcasting Network. Mr. Jed, Michoud.

Jed, happy Thanksgiving, my friend. Happy Thanksgiving, Mike. I'm glad you peeled back the curtain already because I was going to do it by saying, before we get into this, Mike, this is the first year I'm cooking Thanksgiving dinner. And nobody told me how expensive Thanksgiving dinner is to, like, get all of the things to prepare for. I went shopping this morning. I was like, oh, oh, heavens, this was far more costly than my average Thursday night dinner. But other than that, I'm thankful for so much.

Let's talk about it. Yes. How many people are you feeding this year? Just a handful of us. Just keeping it real tidy. I think four is three to four. One of them still sort of up in the air. And, you know, costly. This is a thing that I've now learned. So mom and dad, thanks for all those Thanksgiving you cooked my entire life up until now. That was really helpful for my bank account. It's amazing what Thanksgiving does and how costly it can be.

be for three to four people. What wasn't very costly was PFL acquiring 210 people. Those are the fighters that are now a part of the PFLL ator roster as was announced Monday morning. More details went in Monday afternoon as Don Davis, as only Don Davis can do, explain himself on the MMA hour. And boy, oh boy, is there a lot to talk about here. Jed, I know you did a reaction pod with Shaheen and Damon and I listened to it. And I agreed with pretty much everything you and Damon both had to say and Shaheen as well. But it's a day removed. You got your initial thoughts out. You reacted like a couple of hours later. It's now a day beyond. And as people hear this, it's three days beyond. Has anything changed? Have you had a good night's sleep, thought about

things a little bit differently than you did in the instant reaction? Where are you at with this whole thing? No, nothing's changed for me. I'm not saying I'm right on this one. Like, because a lot of my feelings are, I mean, they're that. They're feelings and some of it's, a lot of it, frankly, is also projection, not just for this upcoming year, but kind of years down the road. That's really why I was as negative on this as, as I have been. And, you know, thing can change. Like, this could shift very quickly. And I think it certainly will change some from what was announced. But like, my initial reaction was the same as everyone's, right? I'm sure it was the same as years, oh, they finally did this.

Like, this has been the worst kept secret in the sport, maybe ever. Like, for six months, we've known that this is where it was going. Even with some maybe last minute, will they, won't they? Of it still seem like here's where we're going to end and we finally did that. My issues are not that the PFL is acquiring Bellator. I think that that is a good business move for the PFL. The PFL's biggest issue is that they don't have very many good fighters. Bellator has the most good fighters that aren't under the UFC umbrella.

That is a peanut butter and chocolate combination that just goes real smooth together, you know? My issue is everything they said after officially announcing that they were acquiring Bellator. If you want to run that down, then we can dive into it. But how are you feeling? Are you as concerned as I am about this? Yes. I'm incredibly concerned because here's... I was annoyed immediately.

Immediately, Jed, as soon as this all came out, Don put out the teaser tweet, the MMA landscape's going to change. I'm like, all right, cool. Like, this is the road we're taking. That's cool. You want to be like, hey, we're changing the game a little bit here?

I love it. But then they announce it. And what's the first thing they do? They compare themselves to the UFC. Our roster is this, which by the way, mathematically, it's just wrong. It's not true.

It's totally wrong. This whole thing, we have the same number of top 25 fighters as the UFC percentage wise. Absolutely unequivocally not true. But just to make the entire announcement about that, immediately I was like, okay, this is bad. Like this concerns me because the one thing that is concerned me about the PFL from Jump Street, and it's kind of led to Bellator's downfall as well, not from Coker per se, but for some of the people who work for Bellator, is that it's not a race. It's not a, hey, we're very excited for the future and what this could be.

It's, hey, now we're co-leaders with the UFC because we made this move. What are you talking about? What are you talking about? You think Dana White lost one second of Gary Brecker health-related sleep last night? Not a wink. He didn't lose a wink. He went out and gambled for six hours, went home, head hit the pillow, and he zonked right. out. This did not concern them one bit right now. This whole thing that we are co-leaders,

we're not number two, we're not the XFL, they're not the NFL, just a horrible way to position this. And immediately I was concerned because of how they're trying to position this instead of like, this is an exciting day for the fighters. This is an exciting day for the MMA community. There's a new alternative. We're going to do all these cool things. Why even mention the UFC, Jed? Why is the UFC even part of this? Because everyone who ever gets involved in the sport at a high level is an egotistical moron. Like, it's the only answer I have because it's the only answer that makes sense because like there is there is no reason to do this whatsoever.

You can't like you this isn't a race. The race is over. It's been won. The UFC won years ago. Pride was the last thing standing in the way. Pride fell. You cannot win a race that has already been run on Tuesday, my man. So why are you trying to compete?

It's particularly because a brief aside on that note, the optics of this are really trash because you're talking all this, this greasiness and then you're about to put on a pay-per-view on Friday that's going to sell four paper views and probably isn't going to be that good either if you just look at it on paper. So like maybe delay talking shit until the next event you can put on is something. than cool as opposed to whatever this is going to be. But I digress.

Yeah, there's no reason to invoke the UFC because the goal should not be to be the UFC or to beat the UFC. It is not feasible. It's not even remotely realistic to honestly even take market share from them. Like, honestly, you should just be focused on running your own race, doing your own thing. It was exactly like you said. It's not, hey, you know, hey, here's, we're going to compete.

No, hey, this is a great day in the sport. You know, we've been really clear on our vision, on what we see as MMA and how we want to be involved in this space. And essentially what we're doing with this is aside from, you know, getting, we're going to be doing all these other cool things. What we really have just done is we've acquired 200 more world-class talents to put under our umbrella and to help them help us collectively build our vision of the future. and that's just a way better thing than like Garbo pro wrestling shit talk from Don Davis.

Like what are you doing, man? Like if I was in charge, if I could be king of PFL for one day, I would just fire Don Davis. And like that's harsh and Don you want to bring it up with me okay. But like everything you publicly contribute has been pretty mockable and or bad for the last like year. Like just you don't have to do this. You truly do not have to set that as your goal because when you fail and you will fail, then it looks even worse. It looks even worse if you position yourself as this because you cannot deliver.

That is a fact. That is not an opinion. It is a fact that you cannot compete with the UFC in any reasonable metric legitimately. If your best case is we have 30% of the best fighters, the same as them, which, by the way, we've already said is not true. That means absolutely nothing, Jed, because you can have 30% of the most talented fighters. Fuck, you could have 80% of the most talented fighters. You know what you don't have?

You don't have stars. You have no stars. You have Francis, who, by the way, no one is interested in him fighting in an MMA fight whatsoever right now. you have maybe Jake Paul who, let's be honest, he's fighting Andre August, I think is his name in a boxing bout that no one cares about. Like, nobody cares about it. It's going to do, I don't even know if it's going to sell out a hotel casino, if we're being honest. And unless he does actually get in an MMA fight with Nate Diaz, that thing ain't going to sell anything.

Like there might be some sort of intrigue behind it, but outside of those two guys and no disrespect to the Bellator, fighters because it's not even necessarily the Belator fighters' faults. There are no stars in Belator. Absolutely none. Great fighters, but no one is going to generate, hey, I have to pay $50 to watch Patchy Mix fight Magamad Magamadha again because there's nobody from an effing fight right now. So that's the problem. You can have the most talented fighters in the world. But if the casual audience or even the just outside of hardcore fans don't care, how are you going to make money off of this? I just don't understand.

I understand why they're going to allow Bellator to run in 2024, at least for a little while because they have contractual obligations. They have to do it. They have television deals that they have to follow through with, which is why they're doing this on an international basis. I get it. And I think Bellator hosting events internationally, if they're going to do this quote unquote reimagined Bellator,

is brilliant. That's exactly what they should do. They should not be going to Pichanga Casino. They should not be going to scenic Uncassville, Connecticut. it. They should be going to Dublin in London and Manchester, the places where they draw crowds and do these shows. And they should have a ton of local talent on. Completely agree there. I think that's a smart way to do it. But I mean, come on, dude. You're just asking way too much. And then just to immediately be like, hey, our roster's great. We're right up there at the UFC. You're not because

the UFC is going to sell 200. Like Amanda Nunes versus Serena Aldana did six-figure pays. And that was not a great card on paper, but it still does six-figure paper revised. And you know what? Do you ever see it is in a position right now where if they sell one or one million, it don't matter because they're still going to make a billion dollars in 2024? Yeah. It is a truly baffling lack of self-awareness for that to be the message. Because again, if that was part of the message, right?

or if that was just one person, you know, if Don Davis is just off on his own island doing this, okay, but Don Davis is the, you know, ostensibly the face of PFL, at least in some regards,

you know, race off obviously, but he is the dude who is going on the MMA hour making these statements immediately after this has. And the message is that. The message, that's not, that's not point three on a,

you know, a trip tick of here are the things. No, this is our lead off, and which is the lead message is a lie, real stupid, and absolutely counterproductive for your ultimate goals. Like, I cannot imagine failing worse

at announcing this. I genuinely don't think in any world that is reasonable, like outside of Don Davis, like announcing it by, you know, writing his name in the snow with yellow snow or something. Like, I don't know how else you could,

I don't know how this could be done worse than they did it. Which really takes a freaking air out of this, man, because this should have been a cool day of like, all right, there are certainly going to be other negatives just with the purchase in general, not even with PFL aspect of it. And we could talk about those,

but we'd be like, hey, this is interesting. Let's focus on, you know, why did Bellator fail? And what are the, what are the cool things that are going to happen out of this? not, man, why is PFL doing this, this way? That's real bad. And that is what the narrative is. Like, that's the conversation that leads all conversations on, you know, this, this Thanksgiving day instead of any of the other positive ones.

Yeah. And they're heading into this pay-per-view, which Don Davis said, and I quote, this is the best card of the year. That's just subjectively not true. Super Bowls back to back to back to back, which I thought was hilarious. Objectively not true. Defending the price tag, but first putting out there, this is an arc called. And then he said it's the best fight of the fight card of the year. I mean, come on, man.

Like this, and this is the whole thing that can, and I'm with you on this. This whole thing concerns me. One, because Don is the most interesting face that you could put in front of them. Like, by far, he's the most well-spoken guy. Yeah, but Ray Sefo's smarter. He should just be putting Ray. But he just doesn't say anything. Yeah, that's a way smarter.

Yeah. And then, yeah, between all that and then, you know, I do respect the fact that we're going to bring in all the fighters, which all them aren't going to last, as he realistically said, even offering for Mike Kogan and Scott Koker and for the entire staff to come on over too. So let me ask you this. Do you think Scott Koker has any interest in being the face of this reimagined Bellator? Do you think he'll be a part of this if you had a guess? I would guess no. I really hope he doesn't. I have a great amount of respect for Scott Coker. We talked about this on the reaction pod. Look, Coker didn't build Bellator, but he did build the second iteration of Bellator. And he is one of realistically like three people in this sports history who have proven to be able to consistently build and operate a at least some level of successful MMA promotion. That is very hard thing to do. and Scott Cooker is able to do it. He's pretty obviously been checked out for the past two years,

maybe even longer at Bellator, honestly. And so bringing him in to PFL where they're not going to make him CEO of this thing. So then he's just going to be in like a other, like a strategic role. If he has interest, maybe, it seems like he's just ready to move on. And, you know, he's given 30 some odd years to combat. That's a good run for. anyone. So I hope he doesn't. Because the other part

of this is, and we can get into the Bellator side of this too down the road here, you know, feels like MMA needs to stop redoing the same things over and over again. If you want to make a statement and do something to be relevant,

maybe don't, you know, don't go and hire Ron Rivera if you're trying to make the playoffs. You know, you're going to hire Scott Coker is the Ron Rivera of M.A. Promoters. He is going to put together a viable product that maybe doesn't make a lot of money and probably loses some money overall, but can hang around for a while, and you know that the quality you're going to get watching it is at least decent. Never going to win

12 games in a season. You're never going to make a playoff run. He can't rebrand his riverboat, Scott Coker. He is just the Ron Rivera. And there's a place in the world for that. But there's not a place in the world for that with PFL at this point. If he wants to come on and be your D.C., great. You know, you need a defensive coordinator. Great. But let Scott Coker. I would say there are other people involved in Bellator that I would be interested if I were

PFL and retaining. Scott feels more perfunctory, and I hope that's what it ends up being. It's going to be super interesting how this pans out. And I'm with you. I don't know. I don't think Scott wants to be kind of like the, the background face of an organization, but not really doing much. I mean, who knows?

Maybe that's like a cushy enough gig and it's all good. And we'll see how the rest of the staff kind of goes with this. And it's just so crazy because Belator 301 was like a really good card and it ended in such a cool way. And then it just, yeah, it was great. Jason Jackson just upsets Yaroslav Amosov and patchy mix just runs Sergio Pettis. And immediately in the aftermath of this event is like, oh, well, what if Patch he goes to the UFC. Well, what happens if Jason Jackson? What if they do PFL versus Bellator? What are they going to do here? And of course, Don comes out and he says, you know, by February, if he had his druthers,

we're going to do PFL versus Bellator, kind of like a champions event. And I saw some people be like, oh, this is super exciting. But at the same time, I'm like, is it though? Like, I like the idea, because, you know, you and I have championed doing World Cups and doing like promotion versus promotion, you know, Bellator versus Risen was we thought was a super cool concept. But at least with Belator versus Risen, we felt like the Bellator champions, at least in some respect, were in jeopardy of losing their fights.

We're not even going to get Johnny Eblen fighting. We're not going to get Patsy Mix fighting because there's no middleweight or bad and weight division. There's like outside of Chris Cyborg versus Larissa Pacheco, which we're not even going to get because they're going to go to Kayla Harrison instead. is there any champion versus champion fight that could come out of Friday that you're like, oh man, got to watch this. I just don't see a world where any PFL fighter is even competitive with any of these Belator champions.

No, there's not. And that's like, it's one of the, I totally understand the idea. And in a vacuum, I like the, yeah, let's kick this off by doing a big versus card. That'll be great. But it's one of those things where it looks better on. paper than it will be in actuality because there isn't like honestly the probably the most competitive one um i won't say most i mean um jason jackson winning you know uh uh one terrific performance from jacson jacks not trying to take anything away from him but it would in no way surprise me if magumad magamad

karamov could beat jason jackson like that could be if magamad magamad karamov beat saddouczi um And honestly, even Sadabusi could be like Jason Jackson. I would have comfortably picked Yaroslav Amosov, no longer the champ. But yeah, the rest of this is, I mean, I think Larissa Pacheco would run up Chris Seaborg at this state of affairs, but like you said, that's not a fight that will happen. And then, you know, he won't be the champion because the winner of Hanan Faheda, Dennis Galtsov is a champion. but Ryan Bader versus Francis Inganu is better than Francis Inganu versus anyone else on the PFL roster at the moment.

So there's at least somewhere in that. And I don't know. But yeah, like most of these, if you booked these and you can't book all of them like you said, but I'm just kind of quick looking at this right now. Belator is either going four and one or five and no, I don't. I think. There's a world where they can go three and two. And again, I'm not including women's featherweight because that fight will be Kayla Harrison. It won't be Lerisip Chico. That one I would give to BFL. But there's a world where Jocelveria could be interesting for Veneem-Num-Kogg, you know,

like there are some things, but no, I mean, this is, it is what it is. And so I get the idea of doing it, or at least the concept. I think you should maybe rethink that because it's not going to go all that well. The one thing that I mentioned on heck of a morning on Tuesday was the one way this could like seriously work out to some extent, at least they'll at least have a, the door will be open is the timing of this is actually really interesting because we do have the antitrust lawsuit going on and it doesn't look very good for the UFC right now. Now will it affect the UFC big time?

Yes. But will it also potentially affect PFL and other organizations? organizations, for sure. But at least if UFC has to pay out, you know, upwards of $5.5 billion to the plaintiffs, if this all rules against them. And it looks like by all indication, like it seems not very good for Zufa in the UFC right now. They have a window to like sprint through it. But again, I just don't know if they had the horses to do it. So it's going to be a really interesting year, I guess, for PFellitor. Because I just don't know if this Bellator thing, I think they're just going to go through

the contractual obligations, do the International Series, do the A cards, and then just wrap it all up and kind of go, everyone's just under one umbrella. I will be genuinely shocked if Bellator exists in just about any form come 2025. because one, contractual obligations seems to be the answer to why they are doing this. And two, in the history of MMA, this has happened before. Other organizations have been acquired and the companies have suggested, we're going to keep running them as two separate entities. And every single time, they have realized that that plan doesn't work because it just doesn't make any sense.

So I think maybe they just leave the name Bellator for their international series because Belator does have some name recognition in places like Dublin, et cetera. And then it, you know, it's the Bellator international series brought to you by PFL or whatever. Maybe that's the case as a is a true developmental feeder league. but if PFL isn't taking literally every fighter from Bellator that is like a good fighter and not someone that has had two fights in the promotion on the prelims or whatever, they're screwing up because like just look at the PFL's roster, man. Like what? You would trade every fighter in the PFL.

Like if you could just do a clean swap, PFL would have to say yes, because one roster is so much better than that. the others. So it's just going to do that. And you brought up the thing that I think is the most interesting point of all of this to me. I talked about this little on our reaction pod. And it's, I don't think PFL is going to be successful long term. If I were betting money, I would bet that PFL as a promotion is gone within five years. If I am wrong, I am pretty sure that I will be wrong, not because the PFL did anything great,

not because, ooh, they started taking market share from the UFC and they started selling pay-per-views and their deal with ESPN or, you know, when their rights ran up, maybe they get on Netflix or something. You know, it won't be that. It won't be they succeed because they succeed. They will succeed because they are in position

to take the most advantage of the antitrust suit. Because at this point, it seems like that is going to come down the pipe this upcoming year. I thought for the longest time, the UFC was going to settle it because based on everything that I was reading for the documents and in general, my just ability to recognize when you're screwed. I was like, the UFC can't go to trial on this. They're going to lose. So they should just settle because like if you just come to John Fitching Company with a billion dollars, they'll take it. because it's a billion dollars or whatever, they're not going to get on their horse and be like,

I'm going to hold the line here and wait for more. Now the fighters are on the cusp of it and realize how close they are to actually winning and getting so much more money and the injunctive relief that will come from, hey, here are the business practices that you are operating with that are not acceptable. You can no longer have contracts that exceed two years.

You can no longer have like these highly restrictive things, that is going to fundamentally change the UFC's business model. I straight up, when the UFC sold, when Zufa sold it, I was like, yeah, they sold it because they know that this court, this case is coming. And eventually, whether it's five years or, you know, next year or whatever, that's going to ruin their whole business. So the Fritators were like, I'll take a couple of Billy and get out. And I was a little early, but I'm not wrong.

And like, that's the, the best thing the PFL has done with this acquisition, is they did not take on new debt, which is, I think, the most critical part of this. And they have vastly improved their stockpile to be in position when this comes down. Now, it's still going to affect them. The same things that go for the EOC will go for them contractually, et cetera. But they will be in a much better place to then start grabbing market share because the U.S. is probably just going to have to dump market share when things get that bad for them, if that goes the way it kind of looking like it's going.

But if that doesn't happen, I don't think this is going to save the PFL. I think the PFL is done in five years if the antitrust thing doesn't work out for them. Yeah, that's a really good point. Last thing on this, well, look, we've reacted to this in a number of different ways from the Bellator side.

And obviously when a deal like this happens, we compare it to the UFC getting pride and getting strike force and then the whole thing with WBC. and merging everything together and how big of a deal those things were. And even to some extent, elite XE absorbing into strike force and what that became ultimately part of the whole UFC family. And we revere, we talk about, especially with all the damn,

there are goods that we have done, the strike force days, the WEC days, the pride days. And then we have this Bellator thing. And Bellator, to their credit, was able to stay afloat for all of these years, despite terrible promotion and everything else that was going on, a product that was just so stale and just the same over and over again, there was just wild, man, but somehow they were able to do it. 10 years from now, Jed, when we look back,

when we're doing damn, there were goods, 10 years from now, are we going to look back on Bellator with the same fondness as a strike force, as a pride, as a WEC, or do you think we're just going to kind of forget about them? Like they'll be, you know, a part of history, but not as revered a part of history as those other organizations were. They're definitely not going to be revered. We talked about this a little with Shaheen. Because, you know, the funny thing is when you talk about those other promotions like Strike Force, like WC, like Pride, you know, the common threat in all of them, they got bought. They didn't get a stock exchange deal for no money.

They got bought because let's be real clear about that. Bellator was quote unquote acquired for nothing essentially, for stock in PFL, which is not a traded company. And like I said, might actually be worthless in five years. You know, they were given nothing for this. And that's because that is what they are worth. They were worth nothing. They were not worth any assets of any real value. And Strikeforce was, PFL was, WC was.

That's why they got purchased. And the way they were when she and I were talking about it, even now, if I look back on Bellator, again, I got an absolute, a massive amount of respect. Putting it on 300 events is basically the UFC has done that, Bellator has done that, and Chudo has done that. That's basically the only companies that have ever done that. I guess Cage Warriors also been around for a long time. Very different, you know, sort of levels there, though. That got a ton of respect for that.

Having a company for 15 years functionally that is paying people bills, putting food on the table, that's a hell of an accomplishment. But that's, what are the highlights? What are the things to look back on? There are some moments. You know, Eddie Alvarez and Michael Chandler was cool. And the Grand Prix featherweight thing that they did was fun. But it never resonated in the same way. And I think there are a lot of explanations.

There are a lot of reasons. I think some of it's ineffable, but I think there's almost zero percent chance we're going to think back and be like, man, I miss Bellator on Friday nights or Thursday nights or Saturday nights because they never had a night of the week that they were on. It always was, it bounced around based on the whims of them.

So, no, I don't think anyone's going to really miss them. At the end of the year, we always do our promotional grades and airing of grievances. And I kind of feel like we're, we're not going to be able to do Bellator. It's kind of almost like an incomplete. And by the time this comes, like, it's almost going to be, even like a month. It's going to be like a thing in the past, right?

I'm definitely giving it a promotional grade for its final year. But yeah, it would be the last one. Or do you want to give it to them now? Oh, I mean, I think you have to have an F, right? Like, if you, if you collapse as a company, because that's what would have happened. If PFL didn't acquire, then Bellator was going to just straight up fold. That is what all of the. reporting and rumors around this have been is the reason the PFL could could give them nothing

and acquire Bellator is because it was literally better than absolutely nothing, which is what would have happened. Bellator would have just collapsed without showtime behind it. And so I think if that's the situation, you have to fail. But it's interesting because if they hadn't, that hadn't happened, they have had the nuts and bolts of it has been a really good year. They have put on a lot of really good quality top to bottom cards. They continue to develop and find new talent really well.

And that's the big thing. If I'm the PFL, after getting the roster that they currently have, the only thing I cared about acquiring, it's not the Bellator name, it's not Big John McCarthy in the booth, it's not the circle cage. Buck on all that. The thing I want is their talent dev processed. I want the people who are spotting new talent, bring it into, the building and developing it because that is why bellator's roster is so good they have made a concentrated

effort to do that over the past few years and it has paid off big dividends so if i'm the pfl and i'm i have these long-term goals that needs to be a priority one is getting the current people into the into the building priority two is getting the people responsible for that on your team and working for you moving forward i love that idea uh they've done such a great job with that like even Some of the talents that UFC passed on, the Rafián Stats is the Danny Sabatelow's. Like, look what, look what Danny Sabatelo has become. Like, he's, he's over. Like, whether you love him or hate him, dude's over.

Rafihan Stats, very solid hand. And the UFC didn't want to even want to touch him, which is crazy to me. And then, like, the Aaron Picos and the Ed Roots and finding the Yaroslavs of the world. And, like, they have done a tremendous job at scouting talent. That's honestly been the best thing they've done over the last like three or four years. They just haven't been able to convert into like any value of substance where they're creating actual stars. And when they actually find one, they didn't do anything with them. We talk about the big tuna flop all the time.

Like, AJ McKee, like how you let that guy just kind of fade off into Bellator obscurity. after everything he accomplished, winning the Featherweight Grand Prix and getting that big win and then just doing nothing with him, you knew right there that the writing was on the wall that they just can't do this. They can't do it and they can't do it right. So, and then even like Bellator 301, like AJ gets this win and he just bludgeoned Sidney outlaw off of his back and the guy's about to say some really good shit. And we go to the desk. Oh, they go to the desk. Well, they're already sold at that point. What do they care? Yeah. I mean, what are we doing? Actually, the deal wasn't done.

just yet at that point they were still unknown they truly didn't know what the hell was going on on Friday even from my conversations I had didn't know fucking didn't know it's so wild man yeah yeah I mean that's one of the great failings about

I think Belthor had one major issue but I think one of their many other very significant issues is just they couldn't do that and so if you can't develop stars then the quality or like the low-level stars you do develop, they're just looking for an out. If you can't turn them into real stars, Michael Chandler wanted to leave because what else was

there for him. He had hit the top of what can be done in Bellator. He wanted to leave. Eddie Alvarez wanted to leave. Been asking him wanted to leave. That's just how that works. And so, PFL needs to find a way to do that with this talent they're developing and that they're about to acquire because they got some hitters.

they're going to need to turn them on or else those dudes are going to go to the UFC the same as always and then Don Davis is going to continue to look real foolish. Yeah, if they could develop one non-UFC former UFC star into their own and like

run with that, giant win. Absolutely giant win. I just don't know if they have it and I'm going to do it. So it's going to be interesting. We are going to find out. We'll talk a little bit more about the PFL pay-per-view in a couple of minutes. We'll recap what

Brennan Allen did on Saturday as well. We'll take a short break. Pay some bills. When we return, we'll discuss a little more of that on the special Thanksgiving edition of Between the Links. We'll be right back. Boarding for Flight 246 to Toronto is delayed 50 minutes. What? Sounds like Ojo time.

Play Ojo. Great idea. Feel the fun with all the latest slots in live casino games and with no wagering requirements. What you win is yours to keep groovy. Hey, I won! Feel the fun. Boarding will begin when passenger fisher is done celebrating. 19 plus Ontario only. Please play responsibly.

Concern by your gambling or that if someone close, you call 18665331-260 or visit comexonterio.ca. With Amex Platinum, $400 in annual credits for travel and dining means you not only satisfy your travel bug, but your taste buds too. That's the powerful backing of Amex. Conditions apply. All right, welcome back to a special Thanksgiving edition of Between the Links. Jed and I just kind of going off the cuff doing the damn thing.

Jed, we talked a lot about PFL. We talked a lot about Don Davis's thoughts about the PFL World Championship coming up on Friday, being a $50 price tag, saying that it's an incredible value compared to any of the UFC cards at $50, which is just, I mean, come on, dude. I legitimately think my most successful tweet of all time. was me quote tweeting that and being like, this is insane. It's gotten like a half million impressions

or something insane because it's 50 bucks is wild. 50 bucks is wild for this one. Yeah. I mean, last year, I think, I mean, from people that I spoke with, it probably did from between 7,000 and 12,000 buys. And I don't know if that's what's true and what isn't because we'll never actually know the numbers, but that was like kind of the consistent.

But this card, man, it's worse. Way worse. I mean, I like, way worse. I do like the main event a lot. I like Clay Collar versus Olivia, Alb and Mercierge.

It's going to be OAM's final fight. At least it's what he's saying in the billup. Clay Collard has been one of the more exciting guys in the sport that you may or may not have heard of. We have all these title fights. We have Lursa Pacheco trying to make a two in a row. In terms of championships, we have Magamemad,

Maramette. Taramov. Trying to be the first double champ, Mike. She was the lightweight champ. This is for featherweight. Oh, yes, yes, yes. See? Big things popping.

Yeah, see, I covered the sport and I didn't even know that. I didn't even, it wasn't even that's top of my mind. It goes to tell you everything you need to know. Magamad Magamad Karamov actually going to fight for the welterweight title against Sadabu Kyi, Josh Silvera, the return of Kayla Harrison, the PFL debut of Derek Brunson, which will open the main card. Yet, Jesus Pineda, who's had a really impressive run to this point. Against Gabriel Brago, who's had a really impressive run,

they are delegated to the prelims while Ray Cooper the 3rd and Derek Brunson get the main card open treatment for the $50. So, boy, does this even get a quarter, Michoulin Star, Jed? If you are in Maryland right now, visiting family or something. And you could go to this one. Are you going? I would probably go. If I was physically in D.C., I would probably attend this.

This might be the lowest one-star Mushulen card that's ever been put together. Look, when you have the opportunity to open up a pay-per-view main card with Derek Brunson, you got to do it. I always say that. certainly not your exciting 145 or whatever also six fight main card when four of those fights

are championship fights look we did this last year we know it can be a long haul it can be a slog there's always the risk when you're running this many title bouts that something something might get

weird out there but you know at least these fights have stakes they have some level of meaning that for a million dollars that ups the interest to at least some extent. Hanam Fajara is usually pretty fun to watch. Clay Cahler is always fun to watch.

Pacheco is not going to waste our time. She's going to run right through Magantina. And, you know, even some of the prelim stuff, like Bubba Jenkins, Chris Wade trilogy is okay. Beajio Ali Walsh keeps dust in people remaining an amateur for the reasons that he is remaining an amateur and the PFL is content to do so. So I think this is the lowest one Michoulin star card thus far, but it does earn a star. This is a seven fight main card?

No, no, no, it's six. Isn't it? Collard. No, it is seven. You're right. Oh, my goodness. So five title fights, Cooper Brunson and Harrison Lad. I had it as six.

Oh, my God. I just, for whatever reason, I was blanking the Harrison Lads on it. Yeah, seven fights and five of them are title bouts. Yep. Now, granted, again, Pacheco will be done in 60 seconds, but Sadabu C, Amagamek Karamov has a really good chance to go in the full distance. Severia imbacostana-Kasangane is probably going to finish up. So there's at least that.

Actually, this is one to go faster. this will go faster. Yeah, because look, the light, heavyweight's probably going to get a finish. Pacheco is going to get a finish, and Hennon Faheda is either going to get knocked out, or either going to get choked out, or he's going to knock out Dennis Goldsov within seven minutes, I would guess. So at least three of them are probably going to be quick efforts. So maybe it won't be that bad, but still, it's always a risk, always a gamble. Is Kayla Harrison's return the most interesting storyline on this entire card?

No, it's not even interesting. She's going to kill Aspenlatt. Aspenlons is not good at fist fighting people anymore. I'm not sure she ever was, but at one point we thought she was. But forgive me, beating Karolina Sobeck does not instill a massive amount of confidence. I mean, I'm happy to see Kayla Harrison come back after the loss. I'm sure she'll look real good. I want to see how she's been developing, you know, because that's sort of still where she's at in her game,

despite having a bunch of fights in the PFL. Aspen Ladd is, I guess I'll use the word test, but it's like, Aspen Ladd is like a pop quiz, not really a test. I get different levels of test too. You know, you've got like the indie year final and then you've got just like a weekly pop quiz. That's really where Aspen Lad is on the testing realm for Kayla Harrison. So we'll at least learn something and it'll be good enough.

But I'm not like dreadfully interested in that fight either, frankly. even Don Davis called it a tune-up fight. Like he let it slip, but he essentially called it a tune-up fight for Kayla. I respect that. Be honest. Be more honest. That's all I ever asked for any promoter. Just don't lie to me because we can all see the lies. Yeah. I mean, at least with the whole Francis thing, after the Tyson Fury fight when he came on and said, no, there's nothing interesting for Francis. I mean, right now. Yeah, that was totally legit. I respected that. Would Aspen Ladd knocking out Kayla Harrison in 30 seconds be the funniest thing?

that's happened all year. Not all year because this year's been really funny. If Kayla Harrison was still undefeated, like if she had beaten Pacheco last year or whatever, then yes, it may well have been because the smoke would still be all the way up every place that that smoke can get to.

But taking the loss to Pacheco has kind of cooled everybody, taking the time off. It's just not as hyped as she was in the thick of it. So it would still be quite funny, but it won't be nearly as funny. as Francis and Ghanoud dropping Tyson Fury are still for my money the funniest thing. It's not my boy, DDP.

That was great. It still is Sean Strickland punking Izzy at the end of the fifth round. That remains the funniest thing I've seen this year. I mean, Kayla losing to Aspen would be. It'd be very funny, though. It would be very funny. And at least Larissa Pacheco would then go on and get the Chris Cyborg fight, which would be kind of poetic.

and some extent. Cyborg takes it. Well, I mean, this is what I think they should do. Well, this is what I think they should do. Regardless of what happens on Friday, because we assume both Kayla and Larissa are going to win. Do the Cyborg Leah McCourt fight as part of the Bellatorre International Series,

do it in Dublin. Sure. And you could even do this on the same card or do it on the first pay-per-view card. Kayla Harrison, Larissa Pacheco, winner gets Cyborg. Like, let's have some fun. Put some fucking state.

on these fights for God's sake. I think you got to just do Harrison Cyborg. If they're in the same, that has been built up too much, you just jump on it and then you can settle everything else afterwards. Do you think so? I think you just have to. Do you think Chris does that, though, or do you think she fights Leah? I have no idea what goes to the mind of Chris Seaborg.

And, you know, she's earned at this point whatever she wants to do is fine. I'm again, I'm not entirely sure she ever fights in a mega. Again, she seems to enjoy boxing. She's getting up there in years. At some point, she's got to just be like, I'm done with this game. But I do think that she would take the Kayla Harrison fight now that they're under functioning the same promotional banner. Because if she doesn't, that really looks bad for her. Like, it really looks bad for her if she doesn't.

So I think that that's what's going to happen. I think that that's what should happen because we just need that to be done so we don't add another to the long list of fights that didn't happen that we wanted to see. Yes. We'll see what happens. Hey, we'll be covering it on Friday. I will be there in sunny Florida covering this event. You're going down to Florida for the holiday?

I am. I'm going to go see the rents. go see the rents and do the Thursday thing, do the Friday thing. Play some golf on Saturday with Pop Dukes and, yeah, hopefully I perform better than I did in the Chris Widman golf outing that you guys will see sooner rather than later. But games coming together. Coming for you, pops. Coming for you.

We'll see what happens. Yeah, he's a gangster on the golf course. I mean, we already talked about UFC Vegas 82. is there really anything more we need to say about it? No? What happened that is notable on that card for the broader sport of MMA? Nothing.

Outside of like, I still don't know what's going on with the Mike Beltran no contest thing. Nothing's happening. Nothing's going to happen with it. Let me ask you this. Someone asks this on a heck of a morning. Look, great win for Brendan Allen. I don't think it's going to age particularly well,

but it's a great win. Dude has been just running fools at 185. He's been on a roll. True or false, Brennan will fight for the middleweight title sometime in 2024. False. I agree.

I agree. I agree. I think he's like four wins away at this point. I don't know, he's four. I think he's at least two, maybe three. It will depend on what the texture of those fights look like and who we can get to say yes to him. The issue is that he is too far away because of,

even though there's like odd middleweights oddly kind of open but there are a lot of dudes who are also like right there for it if that makes any sense like there's not a guy right now outside of um we're doing obviously ddp's getting it there's not a next man up who's like that dude is a hundred percent the next guy waiting in the wings but there are like several of them who are almost and then at any point in time israel disneyer can just be like i'm back bitches so i right now it's gonna have to be If he gets like Marvin Vittori off this, which I think is the best case scenario for him and beats Marmavittori, then he's a win away. But then that still puts him on a 2025 timeline. Yeah, because you got DDP, you got Shemayev, you got out of Sonia. Shemayev will be fighting for the title next year.

Like that's just going to happen. They might just wait. Because all Paul cost of this is just win a fight and he jumps up in line too because he's super popular guy. and he gets a response from people. Plus, Whitaker's still kind of in the picture now that the belt has changed hands. Yeah, if he fights Ust and wins, he's there.

He's right in the mix. So, yeah, Brennan Allen is two. I think he's three wins away. And so I think it's 2025 if he can get the wins. Who fights for a belt first? Brennan Allen or Bilal Muhammad? I'm going to say Belal Muhammad. I think he's going to get the pity shot next year.

I think Leon's going to be Colby in December. I feel pretty good about that. If Colby wins, then Paul has never ever fight for the title. He'll just never fight for the title. But I think Leon, again, as I've said, for most of his career, it feels like at this point, just can't do a single thing correct when he's outside of the cage. him calling to fight for the middleweight belt and all that. Like that's,

aside from being the dumbest shit I've ever heard of my life and actually infuriating, it's never going to happen. And because he's not picking his welterweight spot, I think there's just going to be a room where the, like, the law is one eight or whatever. Let's just do it so we can check this box while we set up, you know, the next guy up for this. So I think he's going to get one next.

year, but I wouldn't bet, like, a lot of money on that. Yeah, if Colby wins, he's in deep shit. And Kobe wins in deep shit. And there's also just a possibility. Like, if Shafcott just kills Stephen Thompson, they might just say, all right, we're done messing around. Like, just put this homie in there. And if that's the case, then Ballal's in trouble.

But Welterweight has somehow bucked the trend of other weight classes where welterweight has historically, you've kind of been able to just sort of wait. and eventually get one. Tyron Woodley did it. He was out for like 18 months and finally got one. Colby's about to be out for like two years. Get a title shot. Leon himself just sort of waited and it kind of fell into his lap.

For whatever reason, that seems to happen a little more often at Walter Waite. So I'm going to guess that he gets one next year. Yeah. I mean, you mentioned Shavcott. These dudes are coming. Ian Gary's coming.

They're coming, man. They're coming quick. I think Ian Gary's on that same Brendan Allen timeline. I would say 2025 for you and Gary. I think Shavkat and Shemaya were fighting for belts next year. It's going to be super interesting.

They're both probably winning belts next year. Yeah. We'll see what happens. 296 is going to be awesome. I can't wait for 296. Really good card. Okay. Only 10 more presents to wrap.

You're almost at the finish line. But first... There. The last one. Enjoy a Coca-Cola for a pause that refreshes. Unwrap holiday magic at Holt Renfrew with gifts that say I know you. From festive and cozy fashion to Lux Beauty and Fragrant Sets, our special selection has something for every style and price point.

Visit our Holtz Holiday Shop and store or online at Holtrenfrew.com. It's going to be a fun week. I'll be in Orlando covering Jake Paul's boxing match, and then I'll fly from Orlando to New York for the watch party. It's going to be a time. It's going to be a time that final. week for the UFC. You can see Andre August in person.

Lucky you. I know. I know. I mean, the eyes of the MMA in combat war will be on Las Vegas. And then there's me in Orlando, just hanging out, being the only guy on with boots on the ground, more than likely. So it should be a good time. There won't be many. So that will be good.

That'll be great opportunity. Yeah. Great opportunity. Tell me how Jake Paul's golf game is. I would love that to happen. I've reached out and tried to make that happen. But we shall see. Last thing, it is Thanksgiving, Jed, here in the United States.

What are you thankful for? What are you thankful for in this wonderful world of mixed martial arts, Jed? Well, I'm always, I think I did this last year, too. I'm always thankful for our dear listeners, even the stupid ones. Because without you, I couldn't do what I get to do for a living. And I'm still kind of surprised this is my job somehow. And so I'm really thankful for it. and I'll never forget that even when you're being dumb,

you know, when you the listeners are being dumb, which sometimes you are. But that's okay. We've all been dumb. Lord knows I've been dumb plenty of times in my life. So I'm thankful for that. What else? I mean, obviously everyone's thankful for their family.

That feels trite and overrated to say, you know, but I'm very, very thankful for my family and the good fortune that we've had in that regard. I am thankful for, from a fighting respect, I am thankful for Sean Strickland, maybe not as a person, but Sean Strickland, the entity who defeated Israel Adisina made me really happy. And let me tell you, I actually just realized I was working my way through this and I got to the thing. The thing I'm more thankful for this year than maybe I've ever been in the history of this sport, I am thankful for Islamakov and his left shin

because after years of being the only sane person in this sport, we finally got to a place where we could stop talking about Alexander Volcanowski the lightweight and start talking about defending titles in the weight classes in which you are the champion and the many great fights it can be had at 145, and, broadly speaking, just across the rest of the sport when we're not doing this stupid two-weight nonsense. So thank you, Islamakshiv.

Thank you, Charles Oliva, for removing yourself from that fight because you didn't want to lose to Islam in Abu Dhabi a second year in a row. Totally understand that. Thank you for everything that happened there. And Mike, of course. Thank you to Tom Aspinall for not being scared because we all know that John is very scared and don't be scared, John. I mean, when else can be said right there? Yes, thankful to all the peeps.

Thankful to all the colleagues. Thankful to you, Jed, showing up at BTL most times without hesitation, not even know what we're talking about. Half time, you don't even know who you're facing until you show up and walk into the room, the virtual room. You know why that is? Because I'm not scared, Mike. I answer the call. I show up. I put in the work.

I defend my title every time out, and I'm not handpicking fights against geriatric old dudes because I'm shook. I'm never going to be shook, Mike. And I wish I could say the same for the so-called undisputed UFC heavyweight champion, Jonathan, Dwayne Jones. Dwight. Dwight. Ah, damn.

The number one heavyweight in the world. get it right mm-hmm couldn't be mine just couldn't be mine couldn't be my goat either John you need this fight for your legacy my man

what if what if you actually announced this fight on Thursday what if this is there incredibly one it would be awesome like I hope the fight happens it would be terrific

it's one of like the best fights that can be made in the sport at this point in time but mostly it would just be so deeply funny that may that they at least cared enough to to counter program PFL's announcement or whatever like.

It would be incredible. I'd love it. I'd love it a lot. Does the UFC make a big announcement before the PFL pay-per-view on Friday? No, I don't think they care. No fight. What do they need to announce? Conner Chandler.

I don't know. That seems like that's still not happening. Based on people talking in the reports, it seems like there's still not really a set time. I'm on Connor, so I don't know. No, I don't. I think, you know, Dana already gave us the early slate for 2024. The next big announcement will come.

Maybe it'll be a Christmas present, but I don't think it's happening over Thanksgiving. Hey, who knows? Maybe Ariel can tweet out what the current plan is. And then everyone can take it out of context and force Dana to make an announcement. So it happened last time. It's how we got the big announcer of the three fights. Ariel reported what was actually true and then

everyone threw a fit and then Dana announced three fights pesky aerial reporting facts I know come on you know the 13 time journalist of the year actually doing journalism it's crazy hey did he

he didn't put out of the PFL was going to buy Bellator for $500 million so man of the many real dumb things that have come through this sport in this space that that is just about the dumbest thing I've ever heard. I'm really trying to think of something dumber and I'm not sure I can. Yeah, that was that was wild.

Well, at least that was a tough year for Vellator. They went from a $500 million valuation to a 37 cent valuation depending on what you value the PFL stock that they got back was. Unbelievable. unbelievable. All right. Well, Jed, thank you. Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours. Happy Thanksgiving to those who are celebrating that are listening right now.

And if you're not celebrating, it's, it's, we can be thankful for a PFL pay-per-view that cost you 50 bucks coming up on Friday. And if you don't want to spend 50 bucks on it, don't you worry. MAPFiting.com terrific website, as Jed likes to say. We will cover it for you. We'll tell you what the hell is happening. So you don't have to spend your $50. But if you want to, the fighters get 50% of this. So if you want to support the fighters, go ahead.

But I don't know if they're getting a big commission check off this one. You know, that's the one good selling point to a $50 price tag is at least the fighters are getting 25 of it. But, you know, when you think about it, then that means really each fighter is getting like a dollar. Because there are six title fights plus Kayla Harrison is definitely getting a B. so, you know. Except maybe Biaggio Ali Walsh, who is an amateur, so he may not get any, can't get any dollars. You know, I personally like to work for free

when I could be getting paid instead. That's, I've tried to, I've tried to talk to at PFL events, and it's just like, no, like we're really comfortable with, like, doing this. Like, okay. Fair. Do you, I guess. If you're happy, man, I don't know. This seems real dumb, but all right.

Well, we will recap everything that happens. happened at the PFL World Championship. We will preview UFC Austin next week. That looks frigging great. That may be the best fight night card of 2023. And we'll talk about the other big news going on in this story. That is quite good. It's very good.

That's a great main card. Just see them. All right. It's not bad. Pretty, pretty good. So thank you all very much. We appreciate you back next week right here between the links. Good night, everybody.

Love you all.