MMA Fighting - BTL | Sean O'Malley Crowned At UFC 292, Sterling's Future, Holloway vs. Zombie | Q&A Edition

Episode Date: August 24, 2023

In the main event of UFC 292, Sean O'Malley turned the UFC bantamweight division upside down when he knocked out Aljamain Sterling to become the brand new champion in Boston — which leaves the futures of O'Malley, Sterling, and the division as a bit of a mystery. On an all-new edition of Between the Links, the panel will take viewer questions live on the program on topics such as O'Malley's title win and where he goes, whether Sterling makes the move to featherweight, or stays at 135, Zhang Weili's dominant title defense against Amanda Lemos and if Yan Xiaonan or Tatiana Suarez is next, Ian Machado Garry's ceiling in the welterweight division, Saturday's UFC Singapore event headlined by Max Holloway vs. The Korean Zombie, the card being sneaky good, and more. Host Mike Heck is joined by MMA Fighting's Jed Meshew to answer questions about the biggest stories in the world of combat sports. Follow Mike Heck: @MikeHeck_JR Follow Jed Meshew: @JedKMeshew Subscribe: http://goo.gl/dYpsgH Check out our full video catalog: http://goo.gl/u8VvLi Visit our playlists: http://goo.gl/eFhsvM Like MMAF on Facebook: http://goo.gl/uhdg7Z Follow on Twitter: http://goo.gl/nOATUI Read More: http://www.mmafighting.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Support for this show comes from the Audible Original, the downloaded two. Ghosts in the Machine. The Earth only has a few days left. Rosco Cudulian and the rest of the Phoenix colony have to re-upload their minds into the quantum computer, but a new threat has arisen that could destroy their stored consciousness forever. Listen to Oscar winner Brendan Fraser reprised his role as Rosco Cudulian in this follow-up to the Audible Original Blockbuster. The Downloaded, it's a thought-provoking sci-fi journey where identity, memory, and morality collide. Robert J. Sawyer does it again with this much-anticipated sequel that leaves you asking,

What are you willing to lose to save the ones you love? The Downloaded 2, Ghosts in the Machine. Available now, only from Audible. Support for this show comes from the Audible original The Downloaded 2, Ghosts in the Machine. The Earth only has a few days left. Rosco Cadulian and the rest of the Phoenix colony have to re-upload their minds into the quantum computer, but a new threat has arisen that could destroy their stored consciousness forever. Listen to Oscar winner Brendan Fraser reprised his role as Rosco Cudulian

in this follow-up to the audible original blockbuster, the downloaded. It's a thought-provoking sci-fi journey where identity, memory, and morality collide. Robert J. Sawyer does it again with this much-anticipated sequel that leaves you asking, what are you willing to lose to save the ones you love? The downloaded two, Ghosts in the Machine, available now only from Audible. We're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. From M.A. Fighting Studios, this is Between the Links. And now, your host, My!

The iconic voice of Esther Lynn welcomes you to a voice. brand new edition of Between the Links. Hope everyone's having a wonderful start to the week. Thank you for joining us. Back live. Weren't live last week because we were in Boston. We had a nice little roundtable edition with Jose Youngs and Oscar Willis from the Mac Life had a good time just sitting around a table

in a hotel lobby shooting the breeze. But now we're here to answer your questions regarding the fallout of UFC 292. We got UFC Singapore coming up on Saturday, headlined by Max Holloway versus the Korean zombie. We have a new Bannonweight champion in the world in Sean O'Malley. A lot happening. And there's nobody else I would rather have here to join me to answer your questions, to talk about the chaos that is going on in the world of mixed martial arts

than Mr. No Gray area himself, the one, the only hot take king, Jed Michoud. Jed, hello, my friend. How are you? My credit to you, buddy, because the people don't know how hard you work. They just don't know. You woke up. You did heck of a morning. It's a lot of talking. Then we just got off a marathon dam on Yawani and Jacek, which will be coming out soon.

Right into this. So a lot of talking going on, Mike. You're the Ironman of other thanetfight.com great website. Yes. That's why we're late. Apologies for that. But I think once you hear this episode of Dan, they were good on Yawani and Jacek and the special guest that we have or that making his damn debut.

I think you'll be okay with you. You'd be like, eh, we had to wait 15 minutes. Who gives a shit? Let's, like I said, we're just here to answer your questions. Couldn't really wrangle anybody. I've no one wanted a piece of Jeddahmishu this week. They're like coming off of Sean O'Malley winning the Bannamway title. We don't want that smoke.

So we're going to let the piece. They should have. They should have wanted that smoke. Because I just spent two solid hours talking about, Yonah. They should have wanted to get this. All right. So throw your questions up. we will discuss maybe banter maybe debate we'll see what happens there is a nevada commission meeting

going on right now uh myr buenos silvo is on the docket as of right now from what it sounds like they've just extended her temporary suspension uh there is no like date there was no like official here's how long you're suspended for looks like they're still kind of figuring out what the hell happened there but for the time being they're just going to keep things as they are and as they seek a resolution so that's sort of the news that has come out of that. Some referees got some Nevada approval, and that's really all that's happened so far in that Nevada meeting.

I bet she gets a six-month suspension that doesn't actually influence her ability to fight because that seems to be how they solve these things. Like, well, you did technically break the rules. So six months, it's fine. Yeah. I mean, she'll be ready to fight in January, which is perfect timing because Juliana Paine and Raquel Pennington

and probably get a fight at the end of the year. And if they don't, slide her right in there. So let's go, Casey. First question. Oh, the peeps. Lost your audio. Somehow I got muted. I don't even know how that happened.

I pushed no buttons. No buttons. I was saying you coming out with the sleeveless. You're hurting people's feelings with the pipes there. Joseph Bostia. Aaron Blanchfield versus Tyler Santos have been the main event of UFC Singapore. It's the second fight on the main card,

but it's the only one with real estate. one with real stakes, a shot at the women's flyway title is likely on the line. Jed, should this have headlined over Max Holloway, one of the biggest stars in the company and the Korean zombie who's probably going to fight for the final time in Singapore? No, very obviously, no. You're not going to find a bigger Aaron Blanchfield supporter than me. Currently my number one ranked women's flyway in the world. And yes, this is this is arguably the most significant and meaningful fight on the card.

I actually wouldn't even say arguably. I think this is the most significant fight on the card in terms of meritocracy, right? Like the winner of this fights for a belt. The winner of the main event does not. The winner of none of the rest of these fights for a belt. So this is the most significant fight. And then by that, it should be co-main event. It not being co-main event is offensive, arguably.

like I inexplicable I don't understand why this is sort of buried in the main card oddly uh but also not really sure why this is a fight that's happening in singapore when this fight probably should be maining eventing an apex card or something like that you know this should be five rounds because it's a title eliminator so i understand a lot of the idea here but this event is happening in part because max holloway said he wanted to fight Korean zombie and Korean zombie wanted this fight and this is this is clearly the show this is the thing They are doing the thing and so that certainly is main event Worthy over anything else in this card

Like I said should be co-main event, but I think it should be the main event somewhere else and It's odd that instead it's just here I mean it's the timing thing really is why this fights on this card because it sets up this almost women's flyway Grand Prix that we're going to get over the next three weeks because we got this fight. Next week we get Rosamunis versus Manon Fioro, and then we get the pay-per-view, and then we get the main event for the title, the Noce UFC card on the 16th with Grasso's Ship Chico 2, and all bets are off if Rosamayunas beats Manon Fioro. Like Aaron Blanchfield, Aaron Blanchfield can beat Tilos Santos in 45 seconds on Saturday.

if Rose Dom and Eunice wins next week, she's fighting for the title. Even if Valentina beats Grasso, they're not going to run the trilogy right back. They're just going to go right to Rose versus Valenci. 100%. 100%. All right.

Well, we're all Monofioreau fans then. Got it. Yep. I don't want the world where the pretty clearly best flat weight in the world still is just stuck waiting because Rose is a bigger star. Right. But so let me pivot to this.

I agree. I agree. If she went, she's going to get a title shot. Oh, 100 for sure. But most people feel like odds-wise, that may not happen because manage to be so much bigger than her. So I'll pose this question. I think those people are crazy. Casey, I'll start with you. Let's just say, let's say Aaron wins and let's say Manon wins. And they're both equally as impressive. Is Aaron getting the shot or is manon getting the shot because she beat Rosenomianz? knows.

Where on the card is the Rose Manon fight? Is it like the co-main event, third fight from the top? Let me look. It should. I mean, if that's not the co-main event, I mean, we're doing something terribly wrong here. Well, I think that UFC is doing something terribly wrong, putting Lance Renzuela Santos on the Singapore card. It's the co-main event.

I mean, but it has to be the co-main event. It's in Paris. Yeah, it's Rose. Manal has to be. Okay. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah.

For sure. It sounds like the UFC is setting this up. What was the question again? So if if if if Rose wins, she's getting touched it. I think we're all in agreement with that because Blancheville wins because she's the biggest she's the bigger star of all of these women. Well, I think the placement on that card and just the fact that they bury in Blanchville and Santos on a card and the prelims in Singapore for some reason and not put this card. Like I don't know why this is it waiting two weeks and put this on the really. very bad main card for the Australia card.

I mean, I don't know. Let's just say. It would. I 100% would agree. I just don't just say why this is in Singapore. Yeah. I agree. There's an October fight night that needs a main event too.

So I could have done a lot of things here. Yeah. If Blanchfield wins, if Blanchfield wins and Fiora wins, who gets the next title shot? I think if Shipschenko wins and Rose doesn't, I think they'll run it back. They'll do the third fight.

but I would be I would hope Blanchefield I would hope Blancheville I don't know why we're treating Blancheville like I don't know like Edwards on his way up to the Walter where he just went like 50 fights you know

Blancheville is clearly the person she's been finishing fights I don't understand why there's some any hesitation from the UFC about putting Blanchevild in a title shot I just don't I don't get it neither do I do

I think in that situation and Blancheville gets it. I don't think they're committed to Fioro as like the next big thing. If she wins really impressively, maybe. Like if she knocks out Rose or something, then all bets are off. But I think the U.S. at least recognizes that Blanchefield is the future here. And so they would probably default to that.

Yeah. And I think if Minon wins, I think we always go back to, oh, Rose is too small. She's a straw weight. I think there's always that. They're kind of in the back pocket as far as criticizing, taking taking something away from Bonone's victory.

Maybe, but I don't know, man. Because it's in Paris. If Manning goes out there and melts Rose, she's going to look like a friggin superstar next Saturday. Aaron look like a superstar and MSG just like a few back. That's what I'm saying.

Like you look like a superstar but then the UFC just kind of forgets about it. I don't know. I know, but I understand what you're saying. I agree that she would look like a superstar. Here's the other thing. This is not going to happen. because I've watched him in all furor a fight and she doesn't melt anybody like she might win

i don't think she's going to but she could but i'd be like so i said if she goes out there and just ice is rose then i'll be really impressed and i'm okay with that happening but it seems really unlikely given everything we know about the competitors there's women's flyweight everybody it's going to be a fun few weeks for that division Aaron Blanchfield's the best flyweight in the world and she's not going to have the belt for like three years. It's going to be incredibly fresh. That's happening so often. Like, it's really annoying to be a fan of this sport.

Habib was the best lightweight in the world for like, I'm not even kidding, four full years before he got the belt. And everyone knew it. Like, everyone was aware you had the people making the Tony argument. Those people were wrong. And it was Habib, always. And it took him forever to get there. And we're just doing that more and more. and way classes. Bantamweight, Sean Amalley is not the best band weight in the world.

He's the rightful champion. But if, if we had to do a trial by combat, Sean O'Malley's like my third choice. And that might even be high. And we're just not, we're doing this way too often now. And it's getting a little annoying. Price, I think. Uh, right. Let's go ahead. Let's keep it on O'Malley. All right. Does the UFC ever consider a McGregor O'Malley co-in-main event? Seems like it could break record.

So even Sean had come out and said at some point, I forget where I saw this. I don't know if it was like a quote tweet or an Instagram comment or something. When McGreg kind of put O'Malley over and O'Malley said, hey, you in December and then me and Cheeto is the co-main event or something like that.

So do you think they would ever do? that do you think let's just say Connor can fight in December and all this is bullshit every that whole voice note is just a a tactic if you will do you think the UFC would would co-main O'Malley underneath McGregor or do you think why would we do that we get two bonafide stars who are going to sell pay-per-views why do we need to put them together it's it's certainly the latter um I think that if you did put them together you could uh I don't think you break records I don't think you're I do not think the UFC is physically capable of beating the Connor Habib

the confluence of events for that was simply too large and I don't think that they can credibly recreate that at this moment in time maybe down the line something happens but I think you'll get a little bit of a bump but it is a bit of a diminishing returns

thing like is it better to have one pay per view that because there are these two hallmark stars slightly more people will view instead of if you do them individually you're going to get Connor selling 1.2 million or 1.1 million and you'll probably get O'Malley selling like 600K, 700K. And if you put them together, you could maybe sell 1.4. Like that's just not how business works. Like you go for the mill, the 1.1 and the 700. I think that

you lose, particularly given their fan bases, there's probably a good amount of overlap there. You're not getting enough juice for the squeeze. The only time something like that could happen, UFC 300. I could see the UFC trying to make a big splash for an event like that, but just a pay-per-view to go all in on. They're not going to do that. Can you see? What do you think?

No, they just want everything, Jets said. They just won't do it. And it won't break records because I agree with what Jets said. They just can't promote to. The Habeb Connor fight is so big. like everything about it was unbelievable and that doesn't happen and organic this would there's nothing yeah there's no i don't know unless who was so mcgregor chan like mcgregor chanler and omali chito is the co-man i'd be a really big event it's not going to

beat conrbore beef yeah it's just i don't think the ufc is ever getting to that number again uh or at least not with the current fighters on roster Does actually more interest than this does the Venn diagram whatever of people who buy Connor McGregor pay-per-views and people who buy Sean O'Malley paper views how much is that overlap I would bet that there's a large overlap but the truth is we actually don't know what that second circle is yeah we just don't really know what O'Malley we know that the UFC certainly said that this that this previous fight was the biggest band-of-white fight in history and was doing big numbers for them

We don't know that that's true. I would suspect that it is, but I think that it's not a circle because O'Malley does appeal to a younger generation. But I would say that there is the way they go about their business and themselves and their caricatures of themselves. I think that there is probably a decent overlap there. I'm just wondering how much it actually increases the actual, if you just do Connor headlining, how much is putting O'Malley versus anyone actually increased pay-per-view

advice because the people I feel would already be buying that Connor McGregor pay-per-view. I'm just wondering, 10%, 20%, I don't know. I'd say, yeah, that's it. I think it does bump it because it will feel big. Like the UFC can functionally just say, look, we are making a big card with our biggest stars. But that's why I think it would only happen for like you. I could see that happening at UFC 300.

Like you could absolutely convince me that UFC 300 is Sean O'Malley fighting whoever and Cona McGregor fighting whoever. and then you know Jim Miller and you rotate it out but this is this is a big card we're going big and it will elevate it some but it's not going to elevate it a ton yeah it was car yeah it was Connor and gauchy for the bmf title at the headline Connor connor coner gachy bmph title at ufc 300 uh is it's my everything god give me that fight even though i want even though i want just the gachi to fight for the lightweight title that he deserves to fight for i still want that fight. Yeah. There are, there are, there are, there are newer fans of the sport right now who have

seen Sean O'Malley fight more than Connor McGregor, which is nuts to think about. Yeah, it's just kind of crazy to think about like they, they've, they've all heard of Connor McGregor, but they've never seen him fight. They've only seen Sean O'Malley fight and win the belt. So it's weird to think about. You want to know what else is weird? I pulled up the U.S. rankings page. It's very weird. Sean O'Malley is the championship at Bandomay. And honestly, to god the first thing i thought was why the fuck is randah marcos here because he's got the red hair that random marcos used always rock and i was like why do we have a oh that's right shana malley's your band-in-way champion and he has colorful hair because he also hasn't worn red

in a while like his hair for the fight was pink so i don't but his hair's red in this image so it's very odd very odd all right uh do we watch did you guys watch pfl last night i watched the main event uh, all right. Ooh, how'd that go? All right. It was a. Oh, actually, I genuinely do not know the answers to this. Uh, so I'm going to go fine.

I have honestly no idea who wins. Oh, no. Big Apple Burgos lost. Come on. Oh, I didn't actually see that. So I heard everyone just doing back. It was a great fight. It was great fight.

It was what you expect. Big Apple Burgos lost. I, you know, I use this reference a lot, but it's like buying a Toyota in the early 1990s. That's everything you hope for and more. That's like when you saw Clay Collard and Shane Burgos, like you knew the fight wasn't going to be stinky at all. You knew it was going to be really good.

It actually was better than that. A lot of people are saying, oh, this is the fight of the year. It's not the fight of the year. Let's slow our roles. It's probably a top six or seven fight of the year when we really go back and look at it. But it's a really good fight for a PFL, for a PFL event, which probably last It lasted 14 and a half hours. This is a good way to end it.

And Clay Collard beat Chain Burgos and this a damn good fight. I highly recommend Jed. Is that a good decision? Watch it. I'll watch all the PFL stuff. Clay won the first. Yeah, Clay clearly won the first two rounds. And Shane battled his ass off in round three.

Yeah, I'll go back and watch, but I was not working last night and I'm not going to watch PFL live. If I'm not working it, the pacing is just too awful. Yeah, I'm the same. Instead of taking five hours to watch that last night, I can, Watch the entire event and you know an hour and a half or something so yeah I also see OAM got a got a finish another finish he's yeah OAM quietly racking up stoppages in the PFL now too so oh Sada Bucci split decision gonna go go cash that ticket so do we see decision at plus 110 tasty little ticket there makes up for the betting on big apple burgos so

Love that. Did he please tell me he won a split decision in part because they deducted a point from Carlos Liao. That would be the best. Oh my God. Good God. Yeah. So I didn't watch this at all. I'm just going through it now.

Biaggio Wally Walsh, getting another stoppage. How long are we going to keep doing that? Okay. I don't know. It seemed fine. It's weird because I respect the PFL on the Biazio Wally Walsh thing. They are actively trying to pursue, push him to take. real fights. And he's like, no, I want to keep working as an amateur. I'm like, okay, but like,

you should stop. You should just, just stop now. Like, if you're going to go fight for an amateur world title, like fine, but at this point, you can take the same fights with the same caliber of opponent, but just call them pro fights. And we could start that. But you know, let him run his careers. He sees it, I suppose. Yep. All right. Would you, I'd rather have dinner in a conversation with Ian Gary or Logan Paul. This is a very easy. This is an easy answer for me. Ian Gary.

Let's go. Seeing Gary. And I don't dislike Logan Paul. Jake Paul is obnoxious and I probably wouldn't want to be around him. Logan Paul is certainly some of that. Also just know people like Logan Paul and they're fine, but I'm not that interested in having a conversation with them. I appreciate Ian Gary. I'm a bit surprised at the backlash he and Gary got this past week.

I became an Ian Gary fan this past week. I didn't really care about him. I just thought he was a good fighter. I like him. I like what he's doing. Not everything he says is a winner, but as a man who spends a good portion of my professional life talking into a microphone, I don't always throw out heaters every time either.

It's just tough. So I in general appreciate what Ian Gary is about. I would love to have a beer with Ian Gary and just, you know, shoot the shit. Seems like a cool dude. Are you on Team Gary or Team Paul, Casey? If I'm not trying to get some sort of money out of him, Gary. If I'm trying to get some sort of a million dollar investment, Paul. But just in general, just to hang out if someone just pick his mind, definitely in Gary, for sure.

I kind of agree with Jed. I was surprised by the backlash. More surprised because people were, like, backlashing against things I really didn't have an issue with. It was a lot of other kind of, like the Jeff Nill T-shirt. I thought that was just stupid, you know, and things like that. Exactly. Like, exactly. Yeah.

So he misses a lot, but then he hits, you know, he gets, he gets some solid doubles every once in a while. But everything I heard of when he's off camera, when he's not kind of doing his prize fighter thing. Um, yeah, I heard he's a, a very pleasant gentleman, him and his wife. Actually, I would love to meet him and his wife and their family. They seem like a, they seem good people. And that's the thing. He comes off as that to me. Like, I don't know any about, I haven't talked to anybody about him off camera.

On camera, he comes off as that dude. Like, yeah, he seems like a pleasant and reasonable person in an unreasonable sport. Like, I don't, I genuinely don't under, like, I wouldn't have done the Jeff Neal t-shirt. I also don't care enough about it or whatever. It's just like, I don't, I don't know. where the negativity comes from if it is strictly because he took umbrage with neil magne saying he beats his kids like oh no i also don't love that from neil magd either so it's fine like i don't get it don't get the eight i mean anybody that and and listen i'm not saying this to be a dick

anyone that can make a neil magni fight like go on the radar and get people excited for it uh this dude can sell me probably anything off of a food menu on the dinner and conversation side. So yeah, and I've talked to Ian off camera as well. He's got that same energy and gusto to him. But it's there's there's camera Ian and then there's off camera Ian. The energy levels are the same. But the content that comes out is obviously much different. But yeah, I'll probably go Ian Gary as well. Because the questions I would ask Logan Paul, he'd probably get up and leave. And you would probably say and answer them. That's the thing.

I just have nothing to talk about with like I don't. I just genuinely don't care about him. And it's not like a spiteful thing. It's like, all right, man, like, how's that prime working out for you? Is it cool that you keep marketing it as like a health drink when it's pretty definitively shown to be awful for you? How do you think those chickens are going to come home to roost in a way that's meaningful? Or how do you feel about largely marketing this. incredibly unhealthy thing to children.

Does that make you feel any kind of way at all? Okay. Cool, man. Hey, if you want to spot you to the watch party, Logan, give me a call. Because, uh, I drink, I drink a prime once a watch party, sometimes twice. How? No matter how tired I am, that'll get me through because it's like a. How?

They are awful. Yeah. It's the sweetest thing I've ever had him. Like, I have, I can drink. straight whiskey i would have to cut prime with water to put that in my body consistently it is unbelievable because you want to run through a wall so it gets me like for those moments where i need it it works would i just would i drink it right now no or what i drink it knowing i'm i have to talk for seven straight hours and with it ending at 530 in the morning the next day give me a prime

pop the tab let's go i straight up could not do it good for you unless they're going to sponsor me look i'll i'll shill prime logan oh do you want to get cut me a sponsorship i'll wear a prime shirt on this program every week baby i don't care i am a mercenary i have a price and can be purchased he's for sale folks he's for sale i am for sale if you are a fighter and you would like me to start big upping you consistently sliding to my dms bro we could talk about it if you are an unknown fighter trying to get signed. I will force you into conversations. Mike, I'm really excited to talk about Sean and Malley.

But you know who else I'm really excited to talk about? This 205 are coming out of Lake Minnetonka. I think he is going to really blow the doors off contender series in three years. I'll do it. Just cut the check, baby. Let's go. Love it. Unwrap holiday magic at Holt Renfrew with gifts that say I know you.

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quick well Shane burgo is a good signing for the pfl how would you grade his first year at the pfl jed uh bad that sort of seems to be how every pfel signing works other than olivia obamersier like he's the one dude who signed with the PFL and really seems to have delivered well. I mean, you look at the rest of them and unclear that any of those would be considered wins, certainly given the money they made. I can't think the PFL feels they got value there. At best, when you're looking like Anthony Pettis or Rory McDonald, at best, the PFL paid market price for those people. And, you know, if you're a promoter, you are wanting to get more value than you are purchasing. That's just how capitalism works if you are giving money to somebody you would like to be extracting more

value from their labor than than you're paying for uh and i certainly don't think the pfl pulled that uh with many of them shame burgos among them you know i was always interested to see like he's coming in to do lightweight and okay it's really tough division not really where he has largely made his hey so i don't know if that's going to be a huge thing but some weaker division maybe can and you know What's he he two and three or one and one and two sorry one and he lost oam and he lost clay collard i do not know who he beat but i remember him getting a win so you know long time we're just the first year i'd say the first year is they would have hoped Shane burgos would be fighting in the championship fight at least and that is he didn't make the playoffs and then they shoehorned him

in in a way that like made several people very happy because a little bit of little bit suspect. I actually, I think on this program, defended it is totally fine, but still, the optics are certainly awful. So I think it's been a bad year one, but there's plenty of time for that to turn around. Maybe he does featherweight moving forward instead of lightweight, things get better. We can see. I think Shane should be in the pay-per-view division. Like, if we're going to do pay-per-view, Shane should be fighting in that. Like, I don't, like, if he's going to go to 45, I'd rather see him make that cut like once or twice in a meaningful way, because he's probably making really good money fighting for the PFL.

I'm sure he's not making like anywhere near like an entry or mid-level contract. I would say he's probably the upper tier of fight-by-fight contracts. But here's the thing that I missed the season with Shane. One of the things I loved about the Shane Bergo signing was he was going to do commentary. Like he's great at that stuff. Did he commentate any fights this season? season at all. Did we hear his voice outside of like the occasional, oh, guess who's here?

Come here, Shane. Talk about what's going on here for like a two minute cameo. Like that's her Shane's overall value. Yeah, that's where Shane's overall value to the consumer is as a fighter, but also he has one of the most analytical minds like in the sport. You want to talk about, talk to fighters who love fighting and break everything down to almost an obsessive level. Shane Burgos is that guy.

Like, I always thought he'd be a great, like, desk analyst for the UFC, eventual color guy for the UFC. And now PFL has him and not use him in that role at all. Like, I understand he's fighting in a season, fighting for a million dollars. So next season, just take a couple. That may be his call, you know.

Maybe he said he's season one. Yeah, let me, let me adjust to the PFL schedule, et cetera. So it could be on him, but yeah. Give him a couple of pay-per-view fights and let him commentate. Like, Maybe it'll change things. I don't know.

But it's tough division for him with OAM still there. And, you know, maybe OAM will be done after this. If he wins another million, maybe it'll just be like, all right, I've done everything I can in the sports. So I'm going to peace out. Maybe that opens the door a little bit. You don't think so? He's talked about it. I think OAM should keep making a million dollars a year because on top of his salary,

because that seems like a great. If I had a job that gave me a million dollar bonus every year, I would continue to work at that job for as long as they would have me. So again, I can be bought, Mike. He's there in the finish line. Absolutely. Yeah. Particularly because like when he wins his second belt, you know, then he maybe he now gets to be part of the paper views or whatever.

So. Oh, my and my. Am, I certainly stick it out. Also, to your previous point, I just looked this up. Clay Collard in his most recent fight, not this one, made 31 and 31 or, you know, 62 grand, $31,000 win bonus. uh burgos making a hundred k flat so certainly Shane Burgos is he's making more than that their upper echelon uh it's a reported payout of their upper echelon of of pay so yeah was Burgos in the UFC we're on the kind of like a 45 45 mark

or I've no idea let me see if I make it fine I bet he's making a little more than that let me see if I can find Shane Burgos's pay what were that I honestly have no idea yeah just kind of I figure he's I bet he's probably close to like 7575 in that range because he's a ranked dude always put on like really fun fights UFC really liked him I mean who else has Dana white said ah we screwed that one up said about shame burgos when he went to pfl but they didn't lock him down I don't I also don't believe Dana that he said we screwed that up like he accidentally fell through the cracks somehow I just don't I mean Dana's not making the deals though yeah it's not him Dana yeah yeah

Dana, yeah. Yeah, but very rarely, he just very, he never says, uh, we F that up. So that that was kind of interesting. Good signing. I think it, I think all in all, I think it's too early to tell whether or not this is a good signing. But early on, I don't know, he's been in the news all, all season. That's for sure. I would for, for, was it a good, okay, we're saying a good sign for PFL.

Was it a good signing by Shane Burgos? One thousand percent. Oh, perfect. Absolutely. Yeah. He's getting, no, a thousand per se. He's getting paid very well. Just to be a money alone.

Okay. Yeah. I mean, he has quote saying that by the end of his PFL contract, he'll be a multi-millionaire outside of winning the tournament. So that, uh, based on him winning fights or just him being exciting because that's what I'm kind of wondering now. It was all this based on him winning. And since he didn't win. From what I can tell, he's getting flat fees in the PFL. Okay.

Well, then he's doing great. This is attached. Uh, I do see from a site called media referees. is the first one that came up. Shane Burgos made $130 for his fight against Billy Q in the UFC. So that was split. So, yeah. 6565, I think is the split there.

So that looks about it. Yeah, that's probably, I had him 65, 7, either 65, 65, 75, 75, 75, 75, 75, 75, 75, 75, 75, 75, 75, 75, 75, 75, 75, 75, 75, 75, 75, 75, 75, 75, 75, 75, 75, 75, in that range. All right. Did you, oh, this is, these are always fun to talk about every once in a while. This type of question? Today, how many Bellator champions are better than UFC champions? So I assume this is a, yeah, I assume this is a who would win in a fight kind of question.

Yeah. There are four, there are five that could be the case. Yeah, so Pantosia wins by default. There is no flyway champion and they tried. I guess six if you want to count Cyborg since the UFC doesn't have a feathered. I'm kind of Horoguchi as a flyway champ, by the way. Fair. I know he's not official.

All right. So Sean O'Malley versus. Not official. Not official. It happened. All right. Did it the fight stopped immediately? I know, I know, I know.

One of the funniest things ever. Still heartbroken. All right, Jed. Sean O'Malley versus Sergio Pettis. Who wins? I'd probably, I'd pick O'Malley, but against patchy mix. I'll pick the mix. Well, yeah, but we're not talking about Patchamix.

We're talking about today. He's an interim champion. He's not the champion. He would not be the representative in the life. The question says bellator champ. He is a B chance. He says bellator chance. Doesn't say the,

he is a bellator champion. Thank you, Jay. Sergio would be the guy that Coker tabbed first. He would. I would take Sean O'Malley over Sergio Pettis. Agreed. Do you agree with that? he's much bigger that's how he wins

Casey that's my thought is okay um similar skills sets he's just all right style wise I would I would I guess I go O'Malley over Pettus but the future champ the real champ patchy makes

defeats of both can I just say I can't wait for Sergio Pettis Patschia mix that is a much that is a that is a really good fight that is an excellent fight so what is Volcanovsky versus Patricia Pitbull for the featherweight

it's not even a contest It was just Bokanowski right now. That's just not, yeah, that's just. I don't even think it's that. I've never been nearly as high as everyone else has on Pitbull. I thought it was incredibly funny that I guess I guess Pitbull is technically still the Bellator champion. But I don't know. You just got gassed up by Suzuki.

It was like a two-day notice fight at 55, right? Hey, don't take the fight unless you know you're going to win. I learned that from three ninjas. Never flight unless you know you're going to win. We should have lost three inches. I bumped, I bumped people down the fly, the end of the lightweight rankings a bit.

How about that? But featherweight rankings, I still think, but Volcanis is just Volcanos. And Pitbull is probably, Pitbull has got some years on him now. I think Pitbull is well past his prime at this point. And I would pick many of the top UFC feather weights to cook him now.

God, I hate doing the whole, God, at this point of his career, now I kind of do want to see him to UFC maybe like a year ago. It's just because I've always been a big fan pit bull, but there was so few, there was so little MMA math with Pitbull and UFC guys. It was always just hard to really kind of debate intelligently. We can say things, but there's no real, you know, backs around it.

I would have liked to see him a couple of years ago. I think if he comes over now, he can't even have a, he can't even have a micro, he can't even have a Michael Chandler-type run. I just think he's in real trouble now. When I got a great deal on a great gift at Winners, I started wondering, could I get fabulous gifts for everyone on my list? Like this designer fragrance for my daughter. At just $39.99, how could I resist?

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between these two guys. Islam Makachev versus Usman Nurmaka Madoff. Ooh, man. My answer is Islam, but I mean, if you hear the AKA boys talk, they say that Usman wins those sparring sessions more than more often than not. They say that he is the dude.

So by virtue of resume, I have to default to Islam, but it would not surprise me in the slightest if Usman-Narmar Nemer Meadowf was actually the best lightweight on earth. Yeah. Yeah. That's pretty much it. Yeah. I mean, when you hear the AKA team say like, no, this guy is it and he's the one who gives Islam the business in practice. Like you can not like.

They don't be. They don't. When you talk about it, they don't BS, yeah. That's exactly what I was going to say. Casey's like you can take a lot of what you know gym talk is but I can't remember the time I've heard a K.k.a guys say something that was bullshit like Javier was like have you ever been like hey Kane Velazquez is the dude you're gonna find out okay hey like Habib is just beating the shit out of everyone and the only guy who's even kind of with him in the gym is Islam like you're gonna

find out okay like he just they they do not seem to to blow smoke when they're talking to him them talking about lu krockhold who he was like three and oh and like and hob coming to me and say this guy's dude he is going to win every bill you know and like yeah so uh if they're saying that about usman yeah it's they're not BSing leon edwards versus yarroslav amosov kisi amosov i'mosov i'll take leon edwards um i think it fights very good and competitive uh super competitive yeah yeah i'm just i'm high on amosoph but I agree. I'm very,

very high on Amosov as well. I think Leon Edwards is justifiably the top rank welterweight in the world at this moment in time. If Hamzaat was still a welterweight, I would have some thoughts, but I like Leon's chances against anybody right now, even though there are plenty of dudes who can give him hell. That second fight against Usman was sensational.

If you had asked me before, look, and I know Logan Storyly is no Muhammad Ali out there, but the way Amasov looked in that fight with Logan, Storley, he beat the piss out of that dude and nobody does that to Logan Storley, whether it's on the feet or on the ground. He beat him everywhere. I would have picked Leon Edwards before seeing that

fight. I would edge Amosop but I think this is an incredibly competitive fight. Like super coming down to the last round and it would be fun. And I think that's really, for Bellator that's the best you can ask for as far as if you have the conversation

it's competitive. If you can get honest, it's competitive. I think that's all that really matters for them. The only one of these fights that isn't competitive thus far is Pitbull Volk, I think. And Volk's not competitive with a lot of dudes, so that's fine. Izzy versus Johnny Eblen.

In a year I might pick Eblen right now, I think I default to Izzy. I'm the same. I'm the same. It's one of those like, you got to fight him now. Go fight Eblen now kind of things. Yeah. Same thing you guys said, yeah. I'm just really high in Izzy, but I'm also super high in Ebelin, but

Evelyn's a little younger into his career and less experience in those kind of fights. A little greener. I think Izzy has a really good style set for this with where I think Eblen is in his career right now, still developing his striking to compliment his wrestling. So give him another year to really fully bake his cake, and then I'd feel okay about Eblen taking that. But I'll be confident of Eblen over any other middleweight in the UFC, top rank middleweight. Hamza? We don't know how he is yet.

I want to see him. I have no idea about Hamza. My thought was Whitaker. I don't know that I'd be confident against Whitaker. I do think he can be. You pick DDP over over over? I'm just asking. I'm just asking.

This is DDP 2.0. This is the dude who's just ice robber word. I can breathe. I will because I honestly think DDP is going to be the dude to take himself off. I think he's going to do it. He said it out loud. Everyone's going to be so upset and for a lot of justifiable reasons, but the dude is really good at fighting. It just looks ugly in a lot of spots.

Be sure fucking good at it, man. Eblen, Eblen versus Canonere or Eblen versus Vittori? Eblen confidently over both of them now. Votoria a year ago, I would have said, would be more interesting. I think Vittori's on the downside. I think he's got too many miles on him. Has it looked great his last couple of fights. And Canaan Air, I think, is definitively older, and the style is bad for him.

Light heavyweight. I'd say at worst, Eblen is number three in the UFC. Maybe four, maybe four. Yeah, he's top five for sure. Light heavy weight. I know Jamal Hill has said that he is vacating the title. But he has not vacated the title yet. So for the sake of this conversation,

Jamal Hill versus Vadim Nemcov. I would take Vadim Nimcov with all the money on the line since Jamal Hill doesn't have a functioning leg right now. So I got to think that Vadim Nimcov can beat a one-legged Jamal Hill. And even when he gets two legs, I still think I'd take Nemcov over Hill. I've said this a lot with Jamal Hill on various topics. I just don't know if he's good or not.

I know that he is the champion and he deserves to be the champion. And so far as he fought a title, fought for a title and looked terrific in that fight. But he could be Cody Garbrandt. He could be John Jones. It's probably somewhere in the middle. But like Cody Garbrandt didn't fight anybody, fought for a belt, looked amazing and then has sucked basically ever since then. Jamal Hill could absolutely be the same. He didn't really beat a lot of good people.

Circumstances put him in a title fight that he didn't deserve. He looked terrific in it. I don't know if that is who he is or if that's he high-wold this night of his life. You know, like maybe he just fought the best fight of his life on the biggest, most important night. So I at least know who Nimcov is.

And so I have to defer to Nemcov here. But I wouldn't be shocked if maybe he just is that dude and we just don't know it yet. So I'm with you for everything you just said. And this goes back to all the rankings talk and him shitting on our rankings. all that. It all comes down to the next fight. And we've been saying this since January. You go in there, you beat Glover, you did what you need to do, and you look spectacular doing it. He was ranked

number four because he didn't beat, who in my opinion was still the champion. And a lot of other people's opinion was still the champion. Dude vacated the title two weeks before his scheduled fight, and then Jamal Hill won it a month later. And beating Glover-Teshire is a great win. but this is a Glover to Cher who's going to retire even if he won the belt. I'm not taking anything away from the performance. But everything trickles down to what happened to the next fight. He goes out there and does that to Yuri Perashka.

He's the best light heavyweight in the world with a bullet. And this is not a conversation. He is far in a way the unanimous best light heavyweight in the world. You go and do that in your next fight. But there wasn't a next fight. And we don't know. Like you said, we don't know how good he is.

We still don't know. So right now, until I see that next fight, until I see what it's like coming back from this injury, it's Vadim, I'm picking Vadim Nemcoff. I'm picking Vadim Nemcoff. Vadim Kov is super good. And we're talking about where Johnny Abilom would be in this division. At middleweight, Vadim Knav is probably a top three light heavyweight right now in the UFC if he just signed it went over there. He's like done with light heavyweight right now.

He just wants to go heavyweight. I would put him at three right now with the caveat that I don't have any idea what the fuck to make of Alex Pereira at light heavyweight. Yeah. Pereira could be the best dude in the world. He looked great against Behoovich. Blahevich, I still think is a quality fighter. I would put the dean behind Yeri, who already has beaten him. And I would put him behind An Goliath, who I believe is the best light heavyweight in the world.

Yeah. but or Pereira sorry but I don't I don't know what to make of Alex Pereira he's he has ruined so many things about him and my ability to interpret what the hell is going on in the sport yeah I love him for it there's no animosity I love Alicara for being a super weirdo that makes it makes this sport seem very dumb love the chaos love the chaos but yeah like you said if Jamal Hill beat Vadim Nemcoff I would not be shocked one one shot I wouldn't be the best in every way in the world i would i would be shocked because to me if all the

champion champion matchups nymphkoff over hill is the one i'll be absolutely most confident on for it's the one for nymkov yeah it's the one i would be the most confident on because i'm not like confident in any of the other ones um i think it's it's the one i would certainly pick whereas the other ones i probably am defaulting to the ufc champion i kind of feel like Either way, that fight's not competitive. Either Jamal has a great night and just washes Nemcoff or Nemcoff's just that guy and just like 50, 43 is Jamo. Like this fight, I don't know the outcome. It's not four minutes in.

Exactly. Exactly. And John Jones, Ryan Bader, do we even need to talk about this? No offense, Ryan Bader. Did they fight at one point in time previously? Yes, they did. Can you remind me how that went? I vaguely recall it being atrociously bad for one of them.

I can't recall who. Yeah, I don't know. We'll have to ask the fans if they can Google it. Yeah, we don't know. Yes. And then the last one, since there's only one woman's, oh, no, we have the featherweight champion, but Chris Seibor. I think Chris Seibor would be nobody. I think Chris Seibor versus zero people will win that fight confidently.

Fair. That's my most confident one, Casey. Chris Seymour versus empty. Yes. And last one, Casey, I'll start with you. Alexa Grasso versus Liz Carmouche. Oh. You can't, you can't do it.

I know that you love Liz. You cannot feel, Casey. Yeah, I know. I'm, I'm going to go, okay, I'm going to go Grasso and youth. Rosson youth and she's in her prime. Correct. Yeah, I'm going to go to.

I get it, though, Casey. You want to talk yourself into it because there is, like you see a path uh no i mean if this was chivchenko the conversation isn't there with groso it's a little one to one here um i mean look liz was was was a tough fight for chvchenko she didn't get run over by chvchenko so is that but yeah uh no i you gotta go grasso youth i think she's going to look really good coming off winning they always say that as a cliche but like you get 20 percent better when you become champion. I think there's a very real, very real chance that that happens here with Grasso and that

she doesn't hold the belt for long, but she gets to beat Valentin and rematch and God willing, she gets to fight Menon Fior. She's going to beat them off your. So we'll see how that shakes for. Well, Vij, you played a smart card right there. I want to ask a question that they're going to spend 30 minutes talking about it. Damn it. You did it. Don't ask, don't ask how UFC champions do against PFL champions. because that'll take five seconds. How would I if I was champions? All right.

I do not believe a single PFL champion would make it to a decision against any of their counterparts. Yeah. Yeah. Pro fights info. Korean zombie pulls up the massive ups and decides he's not retiring. What would be next for him? Can we pause this question for a minute?

Because since we don't have a women's featherweight UFC champion. And I know that technically we don't have a. a PFL featherweight women's champion. Uh, but we're all aware that Lissa Pacheco is about to take that crown. Pacheco cyborg. I'm taking Pacheco. I'm taking Pacheco too just because with how old is the rest of it right now?

She's like she's under 30 still, right? Yeah. She's super young. Yeah. 30, uh, Cyborg is getting up there just so many years. 38. I'm gonna go,

Bacheco. Pacheco's 28. Yeah. 28. Yeah. So she's, I'm going to. She's hitting a prime right now.

I watched Amanda Nunes just throw a right hand and not be afraid of cyborg and obliterate her. And I got to tell you, I think Pacheco can do exactly the same thing. I would probably pick Chris right now. And it would not be a thrilling affair. Just wait until-in-this-vato fight. I think post-cats and Gano fight, you're going to be like, yeah, Pacheco, Chris, Chris is done. because the Arlene Blinko rematch she almost got her out of there immediately

and then that fight was awful but if that fight happens like 18 months from now I'd probably pick Larissa sorry I just I just thought of it as we were moving on yeah that's kind of a more happier question than the zombie question

because if he pulls up the upset and decides you know what I'm not leaving I'm not freaking leaving first of all that would break my break my heart Because if you go in there in Singapore, after all this time, and you beat Max Holloway, like, you get the fuck out of there.

Like, you'd just be done. Parades will be in your honor everywhere. Like, you beat Max Holloway in your last fight? What are you going to do? Fight Volt? Like, there's nothing else for him to do. He's not fighting Volk again because that fight is just only going to get worse for him. There aren't a lot of happy moments in retirement.

And we just kind of talked about this with you. We've had two. this year this would be right up there this would be right up there if not the best because no one no one expects him to win this fight nobody won't be the best because of the luller one but it would be too damn closed yeah it would i mean it would be just terrific uh i'm picking maddox to win i think max is going to win i think the overwhelming uh dismissive of him against Max is probably incorrect. It's not like Korean zombie has looked awful or super washed.

He, you know why people think that? Because he got tuned up by Volcanovsky. You know who else got tuned up by Volcanovsky? Max Holloway. And we weren't like, Max is done. Just retire now. It's like, yeah, like it was bad. It's one of the best performances of ever seen the cage.

Sometimes you've a bad one. But before that, he beat Dan Ege, who's a very, very solid fighter. like a very quality featherweight um you know like i think zombies got enough to make this a a classic korean zombie fight fun as fuck these fights gonna rule because you got two of the most exciting dudes ever to do it i think max is better and has a lot of advantages but i don't think that this is going to be total one-way traffic so if zombie can pull it off that would be sick uh it would probably be good for the featherweight division because suddenly max is now not just at the top of it if somebody beats him like this.

And Max can go on the Rich Franklin Fun Fight Tour and that'll be cool. So it would be awesome. I don't think it's going to happen, but it would be great. And Korean zombie could get to walk off, you know, into the, into the sunset. And we will be doing a freaking damn on him the minute I know for sure that he's retired. The moment I know he's retired, we're doing a damn on him. The amount of people who want like the matchmakers arrested for making this fight, I just didn't understand it.

Like, I get it. Like you want to see zombie go out with a win, right? He's fighting in Singapore. You want to maybe get a lower level guy. Let him have the Robbie moment. But he asked for this. He asked for this fight. Max was like, dude, I'll fight him.

Like, let's go. He's a legend. I haven't fought this guy yet. Let's go. Why? Like, do we really think that Max is just going to like hospitalize this man? Like, I just don't see it. I mean, he might because he's max, but it's not going to hospitalize been a worse way.

Is he going to do Calvin later? Yeah. Calvin didn't even go to the hospital. Really. He got sent there. He got forced there by Dana. But it wasn't like on his own, like Calvin had the choice. He wouldn't have gone.

Calvin would have kept fighting. He got up in the fifth round of taking 500,000 punches and was like, all right, I'll fight. I don't think it's going to get worse than that. And Calvin was like, they said, and the conversation. conversations with like his team after the cater fight were like alarming saying that like his scans when they checked his brain after the hallway fight it was like the best the numbers were throughout his entire ufc career that's insane sometimes you got to get just hit around the head you know ask neil magny that's how apparently he teaches people you hit him in the head and then they learn

yeah too dark was a joke might have been uh i'm with you though mike like Like, it's this dude, his most recent fight was for the title. And now you're just like, he's going to die. He is going to die. His most recent fight, he was good enough to fight for the belt and like circumstances or whatever. But still, come on. Like, let's be reasonable here. This is not a squash match.

This is a perfect matchmaking. I think this is great matchmaking. Yeah. We're like to me, like, I don't think he's going to, he's not going to get knocked unconscious. I don't think he might just, he's going to get peppered for five rounds. He's going to get punched in the face, but this is what he asked for. It's not like he didn't ask for anything else. He was like, I want to fight Max with my last fight.

Give the, like, what else does this man have to do to get what he wants? Go fight Max. Go get your fight. Plus Max is over it. Like Max has passed his prime. Max is not the fighter he once was. I think this is ideal. It's a great fight.

I'm really looking forward to it. And zombie, he comes from the Japanese, M.A., Korean MMA scene where you go out on a loss. You don't go out in a win. you go out. That's how you retire from the sport. You go out in a lot. You go out just putting everything out there. You take your bumps, go, all right, I'm done.

You know, and the fans. You get into it. Yeah, that's how, yeah. That's how you go out. So I think that, I know we, as American fans, we kind of like the Robbie moments and stuff, but just, I guess, a more traditional sense than the M&A scene over there. This is how you do it. And, man, I'm.

What Casey says if you wins, this is. going to happen he's not the problem yep i don't yeah if he if he does win if he does win and looks and like wins dominantly somehow somehow um that wild that would that i don't know i have to see i don't i don't mean want to imagine it guys if he wins i'd like to submit my ought no uh point right now if he wins let me tell you i think there's a rematch we all need and it's a man coming off a loss, Mr. Dustin Porier. She's two Dustin, 155 pounds. Let's run it back.

I would watch, I would, I would watch that fight so hard. Oh, we'd watch that fight so hard. So many American dollars would be paid to watch them run that back. Interesting. Please don't do that, though. Please. Right off. Right off into the sunset.

Yeah, if you win, retire. But if you'll, if Casey's right and you want to go out of a loss, you got to keep. it going don't stick around featherway i don't need to see you fight who at arnold allen or whatever put it back with t p what boy he's got a loss we don't know what to do with dusted right now that feels like a great choice for dust to try and get back a dub guy he's got to respect nobody doesn't respect zombie so solved it i'll take my all at no point whenever you know whenever you're giving them out all right zombie ever gone to 55 he's he's been 45 his entire career right i don't think so Yeah, I think yeah.

All right. Last one. I think it's for Jed. How happy are you, Jed, that Junior Dos Santos is being allowed to get juicy. I love you too. Love you, Jed. Did you not see this from JDS? He looks in incredible shape.

No, I just mean his quote. Oh, yeah. I'm not in Usada anymore. Something like that. Yeah, and it rules. Not going through Usada is great. It's just, it's far best, man. I look I love it so much I think drugs are fine and that USADA is awful for basically every reason you can think USADA is awful and dumb I do I don't think that it is a good thing in the sport I think it's pretty obviously bad I think it's even made worse by the fact that it was unilaterally imposed on fighters fighters did not have a say in in this being

a thing it's, hey, if you'd like to be part of the UFC, this is now the rules you apply to. And that means being extremely invasive in your personal life as well, all under the auspice that we are combating something that is significantly dangerous. And I have never had anyone declared to me why it is dangerous or how it is dangerous. I have not had empirical evidence saying that fist fighting a person with steroids is more dangerous than fist fighting a person who doesn't have steroids in them. i i don't think you can show me that evidence it's well it's intuitive obviously they hit harder and stronger okay show me the data points that say that these fighters suffer more by x well my vitore belfort kick yeah he kicked him um also that was totally legal at the time what he was doing so like i don't i think that this is um and i have long said that it's all very dumb uh

it's just technological advancements as far as i'm concerned like science is best better. If you really want to go a whole hog in it, you can't have surgery. Like, oh, you tore your ACL? Well, God and Mother Nature will fix you because science is not allowed to improve human performance. That is unfair for other competitors. So I think that this is great. I am happy that he is no longer under the burden of Usada. I know that he in his time in Usada did not particularly view a lot of it well in general in the way he was treated. And so good. I think he's think this is this is fighting this is sports and yeah i don't think that i do not believe junior de santos is going to win or lose his next fight because of the things that he ingests outside of the fact that we all are lives are made better or worse by eating food you know so good for him i'm very very happy that he has found something that makes him happy have you guys seen what fabrizi over doom looks like i haven't let me look him up he looks just he looks just as just as juicy Yeah, quoting Leo Levy, one, two, three.

Maybe Graham, maybe Gambred Bernackel is the place to be. The resurgence of careers. Look at, look at Roy Nelson. Oh, he does. Look at. Dude, for doing it. When someone can explain to me that something that a doctor could tell you to take, that will benefit your performance in X ways, is substantively worse or morally more onerous than supplements in a credible way.

then I will change my position. But we have just drawn a moral line about steroids. And I think that there is a moral argument about steroids as far as their use among children. But as far as professional athletes, I could not give a shit about them. So good for these people. I don't understand enough about it to be like to have a real thought other than it seems like it's the same thing to me. Like it is. I just heard it's extremely dangerous.

but that's we don't we don't we don't have a doctor if our on our panel here so i don't want to kind of speak out of my ass too much that's the thing if someone can can give me like a really like educated here's why this is more dangerous than a name but largely what this happened is like hey so this guy's on testosterone or this guy is taking growth hormone like all right these are things that like a doctor can and would prescribe you to improve your overall fitness and performance these aspects why have we decided that this is villainous activity other than that some people aren't. And so I do understand the argument that people taking it in opposition to the rules is bad because it means that people are cheating by definition.

And I don't, in general, support cheating by definition. I just think that these are very stupid rules that we should not adhere to, particularly when it comes at the cost of millions of dollars for the UFC to implement, those millions of dollars that could be funneled into the fighters and their paychecks, And two, is it overly burdensome on their personal lives and invasive of their personal experiences. For many reasons, I would never join the UFC if I was a fighter of means and talent. The chief among them, not even because I want to get on the gear, I don't give a shit about telling you Sada where I am at all points in time so they can piss test me. No, thank you.

I would like to live my life without that. Like, you want me to pee in a cup on Fight Week, okay. But no, you don't get to just come to my house and take my pee. That's very weird. Leave me the hell alone. I think we're kind of talking about two different, slightly different things of the Usada kind of privacy invasion thing and having the fighters having zero rights into what they decided those rules are.

I think it's two slightly different things. Sure. But as far as me, my opinion, as long as the rules are. up front like all right this game bread fighting pride rules were the best pride told you to take drugs it was the best and as long as those are up front and we know the rules up front like this is our juice league this is our non-juiced league you know whatever um that's all that's all that's all i really ask for because myself i competing i i don't want to compete someone compete against someone that's juiced because i don't want to juice and i would feel like i would be forced to

And I know that's, well, just train harder or something, but I don't, I don't feel that burden should be on me. But I, and I understand what Jed's saying. I get what Jed's saying. But like myself, like I've, I kind of take pride in being clean outside, outside of my vegan protein powder, you know, after workouts. But even then, I understand that, well, we take a protein powder. Is that, you know, then we're getting that really gray area and stuff.

And I just wish there were, I think with the, I think there was, because there was no discussion. There was no, there's no back and forth green fighters. It was unilaterally imposed upon. Yeah. And that, that caused lots, lots, lots of problems. And that's kind of, it's a complicated subject. So it is.

And that's saying, I, I'm not saying that I'm the only correct opinion. This is a genuine question is. I think this is a good discussion, Casey. A lot of it boils down to for me, as I kind of tried to get at is, why do you take pride in being clean? Like just from a moral standpoint or whatever, why is that a significant or a part of, I understand that I don't want to be forced to do this.

Yeah, no, I'm asking genuinely like, because I understand the idea of like, I feel like I am forced into doing this. I can, I would counter with like, well, you're also forced into training more. Like, I would love to be the best jih Tjitsu player ever. I can't just show up and grab up. and be like, fuck, I'm not as good as these other people or whatever.

I need to lift weights and do X, Y, and Z. So at some point, I think it always does come down to the moral argument of steroids are bad or I feel better without them. And my question for you is, why is that a point of pride or something that factors into your decision making? And this is just a personal thing because I think the reason I started training and everything is because I wanted to kind of see if I can obtain my full potential physically in martial arts.

And I felt that with outside, whatever, concoct medicines, that that would almost never be attainable. So I just kind of, I just put at the base level, what I, what I'm born with, and what can I do with what I have right here?

And that was kind of why I kind of got into it and wanted to kind of achieve, try to achieve that highest potential I could without no them fancy, fancy stuff. But I am also at the point to where I'm like, I'm at the point too where like I'm at the point too where like I maybe physically I'm past that point because I am 45 so I'm clearly past that point. But get on testosterone. Yeah.

I hear amazing. I hear amazing things from people. I am at the point where like now, now I kind of do want to try that stuff just to kind of see if the stories are true. You know what other people say. And just I've never. I'm going to tell you. I'm certain they're true.

Okay. I don't have any doubts in my mind. They're true. And like that, that's just like that Casey to me is really interesting because it's not my perspective at all. It's like I understand the goals. I want to see what the max is.

And to me, the idea is like, okay, I would like. And my goals don't line up with with the business and a business applies to it. I understand those aren't two those are two different things yeah and I don't I'm not I'm not a million dollar price fighter either so I know it's different yeah yeah exactly and that's again

I understand the cheating aspect of this and people agreeing not to do something and then doing it it's fine adjudicate that as as necessary but I just sort of look at them all as tools and I don't like yes those those are you want to be the best you can without implementing these tools to me feels, and this is maybe a bit of a clunky thing, but like, I would like to see how great I can bench press without doing any other workouts. Like, I would like to avail myself of all the tools available to improve my performance in any number of ways. And where and how we are drawing these lines has always felt very odd to me of like, outside of a moral argument of we don't want children to do these things because they will adversely affect children, which I can

at least appreciate that argument. It has never been adequately explained to me. And I have particularly in combat sports, because that's always the biggest argument, is steroids are, they are going to jeopardize lives. And maybe that feels implicitly true. I am not certain that Fighter A taking steroids is going to really make a substantive change to how dangerous getting into a fucking cage fight. is like you're just getting into a fucking cage fight man like it's all dangerous and i don't think

that steroids turn you into superman they make you a better version of yourself but guess what if you went and took and john jones maybe isn't the best example of this if you took a blood culture from me and john jones they're going to come back and say one of these dudes has a lot better tools to succeed in a fist fight and it has nothing to do with what input there we are all born with different levels of testosterone and stuff. And so it's just all been very muddled and extremely expensive in a way that's like, or we could just say yolo, man. Was anyone that upset about what was going on in Pride, really?

Was that the problem we had with Pride that people were too juiced? It wasn't my issue of pride. I got to tell you. I did not not not enjoy Pride because those guys were sticking needles in their asses. It's fine. So that's where I'm always at I'm happy for Junior Dos Santos to be in a more free world And to be entering his his 40s

With all of the tools science has available To extend his career Because a very selfish part of me Just wants to see what people are at at their max capacity If John Jones has never taken steroids in his life Put that dude on the gear and let's see him fight a hippo Because he might be able to fucking kill a hippo his bare hands if he is actually clean that's where i'm at it's where i've always been at you say

bolt i want him loaded up with all the juice because i want to see if he can break like a three second hundred like why aren't we doing this max out human capability guys well with the john jones versus hippo talk i think you could hit the music we ain't getting any better than that we're not we're not exiting on a stronger note than that yeah i mean we did belleter versus ufc Champions. Let's do UFC champions versus wildlife, shall we? John Jones versus a hippo. Think of your ideas.

Put them in the comments. Versus wildlife is always my go-to. I used to be like, can Melvin Manhoof knock out a horse? Because he might be able to. I don't know. I want to knock out Mark Hunt. I feel like he could knock out a horse. Well, we'll discuss that and more.

Next week on Between the Lakes for Casey for Jed. I am Mike Hack. The iconic voice takes you home. Good night, everybody. Love you. This has been Between the Links, an MMAT fighting production on the Vox Media Network.