MMA Fighting - BTL | UFC 268 Fallout, Leon Edwards and Carla Esparza, Holloway vs. Rodriguez, More | Tourney Match #2

Episode Date: November 11, 2021

Will Kamaru Usman fight Leon Edwards after his successful title defense at #UFC268? Will Carla Esparza get her shot at Rose Namajunas? Those questions are discussed on this week's edition of Between the Links. In addition, the panel will discuss their takeaways from Usman's win over Colby Covington, if it's fair to compare Usman and Georges St-Pierre, how Namajunas' win over Zhang Weili was scored, if Justin Gaethje vs. Michael Chandler can be considered one of the greatest fights of all-time, the unsung hero from the #UFC's return to Madison Square Garden, Max Holloway's return to action this Saturday against Yair Rodriguez and if the latter is being disrespected, the top storylines at Friday's #Bellator271 card, and more. Mike Heck moderates the second BTL Championship tournament opening round matchup as MMA Fighting's Jose Youngs takes on Phoenix Carnevale. Follow Mike Heck: @MikeHeck_JR Follow José Youngs: @JoseYoungs Follow Phoenix Carnevale: @microphonephoen Subscribe: http://goo.gl/dYpsgH Check out our full video catalog: http://goo.gl/u8VvLi Visit our playlists: http://goo.gl/eFhsvM Like MMAF on Facebook: http://goo.gl/uhdg7Z Follow on Twitter: http://goo.gl/nOATUI Read More: http://www.mmafighting.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Support for this show comes from the Audible Original, the downloaded two. Ghosts in the Machine. The Earth only has a few days left. Rosco Cudulian and the rest of the Phoenix colony have to re-upload their minds into the quantum computer, but a new threat has arisen that could destroy their stored consciousness forever. Listen to Oscar winner Brendan Fraser reprised his role as Rosco Cudulian in this follow-up to the Audible original Blockbuster. The Downloaded, it's a thought-provoking sci-by journey where identity, memory, and morality collide. Robert J. Sawyer does it again with this much-anticipated sequel that leaves you asking,

What are you willing to lose to save the ones you love? The Downloaded 2. Ghosts in the Machine. Available now, only from Audible. Support for this show comes from the Audible original, The Downloaded 2. Ghosts in the Machine. The Earth only has a few days left. Roscoe Cadulian and the rest of the Phoenix colony have to re-upload their minds into the quantum computer,

but a new threat has arisen that could destroy their stored consciousness forever. Listen to Oscar winner Brendan Fraser reprised his role as Rosco Cudulian in this follow-up to the audible original blockbuster, The Downloaded. It's a thought-provoking sci-fi journey where identity, memory, and morality collide. Robert J. Sawyer does it again with this much-anticipated sequel that leaves you asking, what are you willing to lose to save the ones you love? The downloaded two, Ghosts in the Machine, available now, only from Audible.

Listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. On M.A. Fighting Studios, this is Between the Links. And now, your host, my... The iconic voice of Esther Lynn welcomes you to... Week 2 of the BTL championship tournament here on MMAfighting.com. We have a lot to talk about following an epic UFC 268 event at Madison Square Garden. Another busy weekend is upon us with Bellator and the UFC and BKFC. So much going on.

And I know 268 is still fresh on people's minds. So we're going to talk a lot about that this week. And the matchup for this tournament is in a lot of people's eyes, the main event of this tournament and a semi-final matchup with Alex Kay Lee, the upset kid awaits the winner of this week's battle. So let's get into it. Introduced to combatants first. Back from a crazy couple of weeks, just the fact that he's here today should be commended.

Thousands upon thousands of travel miles, multiple continents, tremendous work covering both UFC 267 and 268 from M.Mayfutting.com, Mr. Jose Youngs. How are you, sir? My opponent knows what's up. 18,000, a little over 18,000 miles. on my itinerary the last two weeks from Phoenix to Vegas to New York to Abu Dhabi, back to New York, back to Phoenix. I'm still asleep. I haven't recovered. I don't know what it's like to sleep more than four hours. But here we are, the actual main event to face some scrub named Alex Kaley. His opponent, a woman who has been deemed the boogie woman of BTL, undefeated.

She even went through the BTL 50 Gauntlet, almost going wall to wall. She's super busy and she's back and we're happy to have her. Phoenix Carnivali, how are you, Phoenix? Thank you for joining us. I'm happy to be here, man. Very, very happy to be here.

And I see that Jose is just trying to get on my good side by wearing the Wu-Tang shirt right off the bat to throw me off. We had, for those, Mike, if you're not aware, Phoenix and I had a great time in New York. We actually met up in person the day you announced the matchups. It was just a coincidence.

Because she obviously, I was in her neck of the woods. She hit me up and was like, hey, if you guys are doing anything, let's grab dinner. So we grabbed dinner. It was a good time. Had by all had some fantastic Korean food in Ktown. And now here we are. It was literally like two hours after you posted that graphic. We were like eating Korean food together.

So no hate here. Not at all. Amazing. This is what, this is what MMA and martial arts is supposed to be. be above, right? So let's get into this thing and talk about a tremendous event. UFC 268 is in the books. What a card. Great fights. Great finishes. Two very competitive title fights up the top, including the main event, Kamar Usman retains his welterweight title against Colby Covington via unanimous decision. It was a tale of two fights. Usman won the first half pretty convincingly,

dropped Colby a couple times in the second. Colby hangs on and in my opinion won the entire second half of the fight. I scored it 4846 for Usman. I'm fine with 4847 for Usman. I'm even fine with 4847 for Covington if you scored it that way. The third round was really close. Anyways, Usman gets it done. Great fight. Wasn't the all-time barn burner of the first one, but still, I thought it was an excellent fight, very tough battle. Phoenix, we begin with you. Your reaction to the fight itself, Usman's win, Covington's showing in defeat, and just the overall competition between these two men. Well, totally agree with you there. I do. actually have Usman winning because of that third round.

It was, it was like thin for that third round. And also, too, when I looked at the second, I think one of the things that sort of swayed the judges for the reason why it wasn't the 10-8 that everybody expected it to be, especially, you know, with the way it was going for Usman and you thought that he was going to finish Colby, Colby's recovery was so quick that I think that that made the effect for it being not the 10-8 that we would think that it should be. I probably would have scored it a 10-8 anyway, but that was the only justification that I

could have for why they didn't give it a 10-8 for that particular round. But looking at Kobe all of a sudden waking up and figuring him out, I was like, is this ring rust? Was that what 1 and 2 was about? Was Colby slightly insecure trying to figure Usman out? Was Colby thinking about Usman's power? Like, what was it? So I think that those first two rounds are actually what lost Covington the fight.

Jose, your thoughts on the fight itself, the performances from both men, and what you just took away from the fight? What I took away from the fight is both men are just the absolute best at mid-fight adjustments at 170 pounds. I mean, this was a fight where people were actually texting me, like, how's the fight looking? Like, I'm not watching, but like, people in the non-MMA sphere, because they obviously, they either hate Colby or they've heard of Camaro. They were actually messaging me. And I think it was like the second round, whatever that 10-8 round was, I'm like, man, I don't think Colby is going to survive outside of three. Because Camaro was put in the beating on him.

Like pretty much any time Colby stepped forward, he was walking into some sort of damaging blow from Kamar Uzman. And he, not only did he make adjustments to avoid those strikes, he was actually, there were moments like he was connecting against Camaro. And then Camaro was also making adjustments. I actually think Colby scored that takedown. I don't care what UFC says. When Daniel Cormier says, that's a two, I believe the Olympic wrestling captain, Daniel Cormier. But two completely different fighters, completely different fight. They both changed camps because, like, if you remember that first fight, as thrilling as it was, it was not a technically sound fight.

Like it was very, I think Casey said it was like very sloppy kickboxing. It was a fun fight to watch. But all they had to do was this once and that fight is over. That whole fight is different. The first one fighter just does that. And this fight, both fighters actually showed some sort of defense rather than just walking through jab. So completely different fight. I had it three rounds to two, Usman.

And that I don't, I won't argue for 10 aides or what because the correct fighter won on my score. cards, but clearly the best two welterweights in the world. I know people are all on the Hamzaat train, Leon trained, but with what we have on paper, they're easily the two best welterweights walking planet Earth right now. So we had

sort of part two of this question was going to be what's next for Kamara Usman because before two hours ago, as we record this right now, it seemed kind of obvious what would be next for Covington and what the schedule was looking like, but schedules changed

in MMA all the time. Things happen. We can't always get what we want. Jorge Mazadol is out of his fight with Leon Edwards at UFC 269 on December 11th. So either way, Colby Covington was getting Mazadol, win or lose, that's the fight to make. It's so easy.

And Leon Edwards, in a fair and meritocratic world that doesn't always exist in the UFC, Edward should be next for Kamar Uzbin. Whether he beat Mazadol, doesn't fight Mazadol, it doesn't matter, but as we've seen in the past, nothing is set in stone when it comes to Leon and getting a title fight, even in this situation. So Jose,

let me ask you, outside of, I just don't even understand at this point, even with everything going on right now, Mazadol being injured, Leon without a dance partner for UFC 269, how confident are you right now that Kamara Usman's next fight will be against Leon Edwards?

And if not, who do you think is going to be next? Oh, it's definitely not going to be Leon Edwards. I'll tell you that. much. It should be Leon Edwards. That's another argument because like I think I post it. I like screenshot his tapology page. Like who did Leon Edwards piss off? Like all of his like the last few fights, it's like, he loses on a woodley. He lose out two Hamzaat fights. The Diaz fight gets rescheduled for like a month later. Luzad Mazvedal. So even if the UFC does the right thing, which is also like a far reach and gives Leon Edwards the fight, I don't even think that's going to he fights going to happen.

Like, as I've said a million times, the fight doesn't matter until they're both men are in the octagon. With Leon Edwards, that fight isn't official until the bell rings. I don't even care if the octagon is locked behind him because Leon Edwards has the worst luck in the world. For all he knows, he can blow out his knee walking up the stairs into the octagon. And then he goes through all of that. And if it's going to happen, it's going to happen to Leon Edwards. So it should be Leon. Whether the UFC books Leon fight, I think it's,

50-50, whether that fight happens, I'm not very confident giving Leon's track record right now and just the unfortunate string of bad luck that's been plaguing him. What do you think, Phoenix? This isn't a what do you think should happen question. This is a what you think will happen kind of question.

Like if you had, if I handed you 20 bucks right now and said, you need to bet this 20 bucks on who Kamar Usman's next opponent is. Are you putting that $20 on Leon Edwards? Maybe, but hear me out. Hear me out. I think Camaro is going to take an ended break. I think based off what he said at the end of that fight, he might say,

you know what, I just want six months off. Or maybe he's being emotional because I don't know if you guys have ever competed before. There's a feeling that you have at the end of a fight where, you know, the fight life is a selfish life. So if you have families, friends, significant others, you're kind of a selfish bastard for several months as you're going through fight camps. your heads in a certain place. You have to maintain this very selfish fighter focus. So maybe he needs somewhat of a break from that because the last break he had, he was dealing with injuries. So he takes a break so that mixes up that division. So what happens here? Does Edward say, I want to wait? We know how Dana White feels about waiting based off of the Carla Esparza comments.

Does he rematch Bilal Muhammad who's up for it? Hamzat says he's up for it. I'm not a fan of that, by the way. That's a whole other story. what happens within the mix here? I would like for it to be Leon Edwards. One, I think it's fair. And two, they haven't fought since 2015. And if we've seen Camaro's adjustments and the way he's leveled up from the Colby fight,

what would he be like against Leon Edwards again? I mean, does he completely smash the guy? Like, what does it look like? What does Leon Edwards even look like at that point? So I hope it happens, but I think maybe there's an interim situation that happens. Maybe there's a wider break. Or maybe Usman says, you know what?

I was emotional that night. I just need three months with my kid, a trip to Disney World, and I'll be back in the gym. So I kind of think a lot of this relies on what Camaro wants to do. I'll give my opinion on this after we give away the point. But I do want to bring this up before we move on because there's so much to talk about coming out of this card, so many storylines. Everybody, as it always happens to be in the sport, loves to play. the comparison game. Usman versus GSP.

Is GSP better? Is GSP better? Is GSP the best World Trade ever? Is Usen the best Walter rate ever? Phoenix, sure. It's sports. We all love to have the LeBron versus Jordan debate, right?

Who's the greatest of all time? And I hate that LeBron versus Jordan question because the leagues were so different. The style of play was so different. Prime Jordan would be even better in today's NBA. And LeBron, who knows, because he'd be getting clotheslined every time he walked to the basket

in the 80s and early 90s. So how would he do? I'm not really sure. I just know that Jordan would be even better playing in today's NBA in his prime. I hate that debate because although it's fun, it's almost unfair to both guys in my opinion. So is it unfair to try to compare Usman to GSP

because of where they fought, the timing, the opponents, where the division was? Or is this just sports and this is just fun and we should just have these conversations all the time? I think we should have these conversations because when we had this conversations, we give both athletes to credit that is due because we think about them. And we think about it categorically, right?

Like this, I know Jose will get the analogy, but when you think of like who's the greatest rapper of all times, first you'll go by like record sales and then you'll go by like lyricists. So if we're going by say like skill categories, you can say, well, GSP was the first guy that we said was seamless, that had the wrestling and the kickboxing and all of the stuff at the same time, right? but he faced way different competition as the sports evolved than Kamaro has.

Towards the end of George's career, he had more octagon time, but now Kamaro has more finishes. Also, George has more tight as the defenses, but George got the title earlier in his career. So there's so many different things that we look at that you have to base it off of category, and it's still really hard to say. Also, George is sort of in the zeitgeist of MMA. he would be one of those people that would be on the Mount Rushmore. And he's quotable where Camaro isn't quotable yet. Camaro doesn't have the, I'm not impressed with your performance quotes or anything that.

He doesn't have that type of stuff yet. He hasn't fought Captain America yet. So he hasn't embedded himself into pop culture yet. It's just unfair in some ways to George because the competition has leveled up in such a way. So it's just a fun conversation to have. And when you say, like, who's the better welterweight, you could say tomorrow, but I would almost say not yet because we usually appreciate our athletes more in hindsight like we do, George. And let me just be clear, I don't mind the conversation. I don't mind it. Some people get all up in arms about the conversation. It's crazy. But your thoughts on the whole GSP Usman debate, Jose, is this like a fair comparison? Like, we can have our opinions and talk about it's barbershop talk. But in the overall scheme of things, like is this is this fair to both? fighters? Yeah, sure. I mean,

in the whole, like, it's similar to the Jordan-Lebron thing. Like, it just comes down to greatness versus talent at that point in time, because I think LeBron James is the most talented basketball player I've ever seen in my entire life, but Michael Jordan is just a greater athlete in the annals

of time. Is Muhammad Ali the greatest athlete ever? Yes. Would he lose to Tyson Fury? Probably. But that's just a different argument. Because I would honestly, like, if you look at, people are comparing, like, oh, it's strength, the schedule, this and that, like, where George St. Pierre's opponents were at their

point in their career, like what, Kostach, Jake Shields, conned it, Nick Diaz, Johnny Hendricks, like, that's a string of, that's where they were when they fought GSP and how competitive those fights were outside of the Hendricks fight, which a lot of people think

GSP lost. It's a lot of opponents that, you know, would be, would still find a lot of success in today's UFC and Kamar Usman on the other end is how many people can have the most wins in the history of the UFC in a row? One. And Kamara Usman is approaching that.

What, one more win he ties Anderson, two more wins? He is the only person that can claim that. And I've said this a million times. Wins and losses matter in MMA. As Demetrius Johnson said, how many times can you be, how many double champs are there? At the time that I think there were two. DC and Connor McGregor. and then I don't remember if Manonis had gotten there yet.

And he said, how many can claim most title defenses in a row? One, and that's me. And I was like, well, yeah, duh, you're probably the greatest all around town we've seen in the last five, six years. So is it fair? Yes, but I think George is greater. But if those two fought in their prime, that's a different conversation. Yeah, see, that would be fun. I mean, if you want to play that game, you cannot take Kamar Uzman out of this discussion.

He needs to be in the conversation. Is he there yet? What is at worst, Kamaru is number two? That's not that bad. He's definitely too right now. Yeah. He's past Matt Hughes. Like, that conversation's over at this point.

It is still subjective, but he should absolutely be in everybody's discussion. And if he's not, you are wrong. So let's move ahead to the other big stories coming out of 268. I'll give my take on what's going to happen with the Walthaway title picture in a moment. But the point for round one goes to, I'm going to give it to Jose, but only because of his mimic the first fight between Usman and Covington, the bobbing and the weaving. This is how it should have gone.

That was a memorable thing, but I got to say, that was probably the greatest round we've ever had on BTL. When you're a forward thinker, you don't just bring your A game, you bring your AI game. Workday is the AI platform that transforms the way you manage your people, money, and agents, so you can transform tomorrow. Workday, moving business forever forward.

But I'm more on the Phoenix camp with what I think, going to happen here. And if you listen to, for those, a little cheap plug for onto the next one, I said after on to the next one, that regardless of what happened at UFC 269, there's going to be an interim title situation. I think Usman's going to take an extended break. I don't think we see him again until third quarter earliest of next year. I don't think anything interests him. I don't think Leon Edwards interests him one iota unless he goes in and like has an interim title around his waist. And like the UFC loves to throw an interim title fight. So maybe do

Edwards versus somebody else interim title. Then you get Usman up off the couch and wants to come back and fight unification bout. But at this point, like, Usman's beaten pretty much everybody in this division except for Wonderboy and like a couple of other rising contenders. So this is really nothing money-wise that could really interest Usman right now. So I think it's going to take some time. He deserves a break. He fought three times this year.

Good on him. Spend time with your family. But let's move to the co-made event. Rosammy Eunice retains her Straway title. split decision went over Zhang Wei Lee. Very close fight. Two judges scored at 48-47 for each fighter. One judge scored it 49-46 for Rose, which I thought was an incredibly egregious scorecard.

But no matter how you scored it, super close fight, very competitive, and I enjoyed it very much. How did you score it, Jose? If you had the mighty pen and you were the only judge on Saturday night at Madison Square Garden, who's the champion right now? Probably Rose, 3-2. I don't remember exactly how I scored it because I... I believe they brought back Cheeto Vera for us to interview right when the fight started. So I think I missed the first round because there was a lot of Hispanic media back there interviewing Marlon Vera. But mine was three, two, but I didn't watch like the first round and a half super closely.

I know Wayley had a lot of top control time and Rose had a lot of control time and all that stuff. It wasn't as thrilling as I was expecting, but at the same time, like I said, I wasn't as plugged into that fight. Also a bunch of, like for as much, there was a lot of people, the Hispanic media back there who I would say next to, Canello was also fighting during that fight. So they were kind of going ballistic during this fight. So I was a little distracted by all of the screaming in the media room as well. But I had three, two rows, but I couldn't give you an exact like 48, 47 type thing. It wasn't, I didn't seem like a robbery by the end of it. Phoenix hypothetical is not always fun, but in this situation, we don't have a choice. We have to play the hypothetical game. So how did

you score it? If it's you, Judge, Judge Phoenix Carnivali, the only judge in this fight. Who's the champion right now at 115? Well, I really thought that Rose definitely won three rounds to two. Because it was very clear to me that Wayley won round one. Right? And then I think the round in question was, what, the third round? So I had to talk about this at like a woman's MMA websites

by like wrote down round for round. Yeah, and I definitely had Wayley winning round three because of counterstriking. I think one of the things that I was taking note of why it always looks like Rose lands cleaner, and this is just like a physiological thing. I study a lot of sports science. When Wayley punches, they're all short. And it's because she's kind of diesel, if a bicep is short, Rose having the longer range, every time you see it hit, you just see the full arm extension.

you see like the full leg kick, it looks like Rose's strikes are sharper. And I think that that might have cost Wei the fight in some ways. And then when finally Rose was able to get those transitions and hold Wayley down, what was that four? I think that was the fourth round and keep control of her. That made such a big difference. And then even when Rose was down, I believe she landed like a really strong upkick. So based off of the damage, I didn't have a price.

problem, especially since to me, from the way I was watching it, it looked like Rose had had the cleaner shots for most of the time. So it was three, two rows for me, but I can definitely see where Whaley had some advantages. I didn't agree with Rose having all four rounds because of that third round. I was like, I thought that judge might not have been watching it correctly, but that's just kind of how I saw it. Yeah, I found Bruce Buffer read 4946. I thought Zhang Wei Lee won. I really did just watching it. But Rose wins.

She moves on. It seems like everybody on planet Earth, except for Dana White, believes Carla Sparza will be next. Merit-wise, resume-wise, she has earned it. She has deserved it. And she should have been fighting Rose at MSG

on Saturday night, if we're being honest. But once again, after the event, Dana White gets on the microphone, said, we're targeting somebody else. She should take these fights, never turned down fights, all of this. Caca. Phoenix, can you explain this?

Like, how is Dana White not, like, we're all on board here. Everybody is screaming that, like, this is the fight. Rosenami Yunus goes on the M.A.R. This is the only fight that makes sense. Everybody feels this way. But Dana White, no. Can you explain this? Listen, I'm actually a little pissed off about it, if I'm being completely honest,

in terms of, like, being a female who's followed the sport, and remembering tough 20, and it being all the girls in the house and Carla and Rose and that particular fight. And I think that Rose is one of the greatest. And I think she needs this for her legacy. I think it's to show where we came from to where we are from 2015. So it just, 100% doesn't make sense to me. So I'm thinking, does he know something that we don't know?

Is Joanna on her way back? Is there something that's like coming? Are you doing something with Amanda Hebas? Because didn't Carla beat Marina already? Am I like I know my memory is not awesome. I forgets that something. But she did beat her, right? So then what is it?

I mean, Danny Segura, you remember a colleague of ours, he recently spoke with her and Carla wants February or March. And I think that's perfect because Rose is going to want or need that break. It's just, do they know something? that we don't know because I literally cannot figure it out. And I think for Rose's legacy and for the trajectory that Carla is on, I don't see any other reasoning. What do you think, Jose? You've seen many of Dana scrum. You're probably there for both of these scrums where Dana said absolutely not to Carlos Barser and kind of shunned her and knocked her out

of this conversation. So can you explain this at all? It's hard to get in Dana White's head, but do the best you can here. He probably doesn't want Carlos Sparza to win because for whatever reason, well, we know Dana doesn't like Carlos Sparza. We were all saying like, oh, Carlos won all these fights in a row and she's never going to get the title.

And this is like, I'm pretty sure me, you and Casey, we're all like, after Carlos last win, we were like, yeah, she's not getting the title shot next even though she deserves it. So I have a feeling they'll probably go with Marina just because if Carla wins, I like Carlos, I like Carlos a fighter and I think she's an awesome person

and she obviously is 1-0 on the champ. Marina and Rose, as Phoenix said about GSP, they're just more quotable. They're just better with the media. That's not a knock on Carla's skills or deserving or undeserving. She should have fought Rose at Madison Square Garden.

And as Phoenix said, too, what sets GSP on top of everyone is in my mind is he has a vent. his losses. If Rose goes and just starches Carla Sparza and avenges that first loss, that submission loss for the inaugural championship, because people also think

Yowana was the inaugural strawweight champion and they just completely overlooked Carlos Sparza. So Rose needs this for her legacy. Carla needs it because she deserves it and they're probably going to go with Marina Rodriguez because, as we all know, if something makes sense and the more the media

asked Dana about it, the less the less likely Dana is going to make it happen. Now, me as a fan, the only other name that I think would be acceptable, which still won't happen because she's probably in a different weight class now, is if they were, like, all of a sudden Tatiana Suarez was 115 pounds, and they were like, hey, we want you to fight for the Straw White title. And then I'm on board because I think Tatia Swars was already the on crown champion at Strawweight, but now she's going up to flyweight and she had that bad knee injury.

So that's a moot point. But it's Dana White. Dan is, like, is always surprised by any, like, Leon Edwards should be fighting for the title. Carlos Fawg. Neither of them are going to fire for the title next. And it's just, I don't want to say it sucks because it's just obvious.

It's just going to happen again. Like, we just saw an interim title that shouldn't have happened in August. So is anyone surprised by anything in MMA at this point? All right. So it sounds like Jose is saying this is not going to happen. So Phoenix, true or false, when Rose Namayunis next steps back inside the office, Steading across from her will be Carla Sparslow.

I say yes because I think Rose is going to do the right thing because Rose is that type of person and Rose wants this and I think she'll say I'm fighting Carla and continue to go for it and to demand it and she may get her way because she is Rose and she deserves it. I also think that this is a bad look for women's MMA if that fight doesn't happen because It has a story and it already has footage and you can sell the story, guys, like, what is the problem? So if Rose stands up for this and makes a big enough stink, I think it's a possibility. We shall see it is insanity, absolute insanity, that we're even having to ask this question once again on this program, but here we are. March would be a good, because historically the U.S.C. goes to Vegas in March, which was the site of their first fight.

Like, if they're going to do it in March, that's the fight to make. Just all the storylines build there. But I don't know. 100%. But let's move on to the best of the rest of UFC 268. The point for round two goes to Phoenix Carnivali. She's on the board one to one. Another very, very fascinating and very close round.

I'm excited to see where this completely ends up. We have to talk about this main card opener, of course. Justin Gachie versus Michael Chandler. Holy moly, if you have not watched this fight, how dare you? And not only that, you missed out on a fight that not only lived up to the near impossible expectations that we had for it,

it actually exceeded those expectations. This was the fight of the year, had the round of the year, maybe the top two or three rounds of the year. It was absolutely insane. So Phoenix, the accolades are there. For 2021, this has, just checking off all the boxes come award season.

But when we think about all the crazy, insane, best MMA fights ever. Is this one of them? Is this a fight that we're going to be talking about for years and years to come? We talk about the craziest fights of all time.

This one has to be in the discussion. I'll tell you this much. All right? It must be a pretty amazing fight if my, or I'll tell you this, my fiance was away,

right? So he watched the fight on his own. So I get a phone call the next morning. I'm like, hello, he's like, babe. I just wanted to call you and tell you that I'm sorry.

And I'm like, what do you do? It was for the dish, something he left out. What are you sorry about? He goes, I'm sorry for everything I said to you about Michael Chandler, because I know you were a fan and I thought he was overrated. I just want to apologize.

For a man to apologize to his woman, you fought a great fight. You fought a great fight. For a man to admit that he's wrong, you fought a great fight. So that's where I'm going. with this. I put it up there because when we had this conversation, I started to think to myself, what are all the great fights, not just great fights, but super competitive fights, right?

Where you were like, I don't know what's going to happen from one second to Dan Hooker, Dustin Porrier, even though Porrier was putting it on him. That was still like a crazy back and forth. Condit versus Rory McDonald. Roy McDonald versus Robbie Lauder, John Jones versus Alexander Gussifson won Joanna and Wei Lee These are the fights that come to my mind as super competitive And it might be recently Recency bias

But I'll still put this fight above them I'll still put this number one Wow Jose let me just first say You know you are screwed when it comes to this round Just based on the first half of her answer But still we can have a fun discussion is this an all-timer?

Like, are we talking about this for years to come? You don't talk about this fight. You're an idiot. All those fights that Phoenix just mentioned, what are they have in common? Five round fights. This is a three-round fight. So is this one of the greatest three-round fights ever? I think the benchmark has been Griffin, Stefan Bonner,

versus Forrest Griffin for a long time. The Pat Berry Shet Congo, I think, was a thrilling moment. But in terms of competitiveness, it was pretty wild, like 90 seconds. Clay Guida, Diego Sanchez would have to be up there. Three round fights. Yeah, it's like those are the ones that people always bring up. Like five round fights are always going to be more thrilling. But again, I don't think this fight plays out the way it did for five rounds.

I don't think Michael Chandler survives or just the gauge survives two more rounds of that chaos in there. And I'll even pose this. Is that even the best fight on either men's resume? Is that a better fight than the two Luis Palomino World Series of Fighting Fights that Justin Gacy had? Maybe. Is it better than the Michael Johnson fight? Maybe.

Is it better than the Justin Porre fight for Justice Gaci? Maybe. Is it better than Michael Chandler, Eddie Alvarez? Maybe. But again, those are all epic like five round fights, title fights with like, or title fights for some of them with these crazy implications. If you pose this, is this the greatest three-round fight ever?

I would say top five. It's just when there's a title on the line, and it's the main event or co-main event, like that just kind of puts things over the top for me, like Lawler-McDythaliel to or Gajie Poria was a firearm fight, it was in title fight, or Gustafin Jones, or what was Whaley, Waley and Yowana, freaking Kelvin Gasselam, Israel, Asana,

which everyone thought was the greatest fights of all time when it happened. And then, like, in what world, like, Dustin Pori and, Max Holloway beat the soul out of each other and they're the second best fight of the night. So is this the best three round fight ever? Top three, maybe top one, but it's still, it might not even be the best fight on either man's resume, which is just insanity to me.

And, like, they're in that group of fighters with, like, Porier's in it, Eddie Alvarez in it, where I don't give a... I don't give a fuck who you fight. I'll watch you fight a door and I'll be excited. Yep. This is why me and Posey shouldn't be against each other because we're too similar. It's a problem.

We're comic book nerds. It's hard, you know. But two very different answers, though. Two very different answers. Like for me, non-title fight, like the benchmark for me for a non-title fight, great fight is Dustin Poirier Korean zombie. That's my favorite fight ever. And if I get more excitement watching that fight, then it's over the edge. And it's like right on par with that.

If two more rounds, if they lasted two more rounds and it was like that, greatest fight ever as my internet just dies. I can see that. Last thing on UFC 268 before we move on. Very fascinated to get both of your takes on Chandler Gehchey. But the main card is great. Most of the prelims are great. There are a couple of snoozers, but every fight card has a couple of snoozers.

Who is the unsung hero of UFC 268, Jose Youngs? Who is the 10th Player Award winner, if you will? It's, it's for the pre-lint. I mean, there's so many. For the whole card, for the whole card. Well, for the whole card, like from the main card and the prelim card? Who's the unsung hero? There's so many storylines, but a lot of them are buried amongst the top ones.

What's the one this is not getting enough love that should be getting a lot more? Probably, because like I said before, like, how many times can you? you become the first one of anything to do something. And the answer is one. And unfortunately, Bobby Green made history as like the first fighter to ever knockout Al-Iquinta inside Masked Guard. And the last time he had a knockout before November 6 was November 6th, 8 years ago. And no one's talking about it.

And he freaking wore a Joker makeup to the ceremony of the wayans in Gotham City. Not enough people talking about Bobby Green. it was if Chris Curtis and Chris Barnett don't have a post-fight scrum, Bobby Green has the best scrum ever of Maddo's Square Garden this past weekend because, man, he was absolutely inspiring back there talking about how much his life was terrible and this and that and how he's the real Joker because his life was so bad. He's the villain to a bunch of people. So Bobby Green is the unsung hero because I don't think enough people.

He got 50 Gs, if I remember correctly, but not enough people are talking about his performers and his post-fight scrum. That's a great answer right there. Phoenix, your thoughts, unsung hero. Well, it is a great answer. And he even talked about inflation, which most fighters don't bring up, right? It's true.

You know, well, I would say, and this is kind of a selfish reason, Chris Barnett stole my heart. One, super entertaining. Two, to be 100% honest, that kick, just a week ago I tried to do, got my foot caught on a puzzle mat and broke my toe. So I'm sitting here with a broken toe.

And then here comes USC 268. And I got to watch that kick. And my toe got PTSD. And I just couldn't believe it. I was super impressed by him. But it wasn't just that. It was that a lot of these fighters, even Chris Curtis, like Ian, they were all somewhat inspirational stories. So all of these people who just kind of broke through on the come-up, it's hard to even say

because one moment was then overshadowed by the next moment, which was then overshadowed by the next moment. So to spend time to talk about each of these individual sort of beautiful moments in the sport, Chris Curtis getting this opportunity where it was like this close to retiring again, right? And, you know, some young athletes on the come-up, which is kind of sad for some of the veterans. You know, the veterans didn't do that well this week. You had a veteran win, you know, last week, and now we had the veterans all, like, you know, the Frankie thing was kind of tough for me to watch personally. So I don't know. I thought that there was a lot of inspirational stories that went forward, and my toe hurt watching one of them.

Well said. The unsung hero of the event might have been Francis Inganu. for throwing just the most quiet but gnarly shade in UFC history. That was amazing. Where we took that video deserves a bonus because that was a tremendous social media vid right there. But UFC 268 was a great card. Best of the year. Set the bar very high for 269. There is still one more pay-per-view, so that's a good sign.

And 269 looks pretty good even know it took a hit today. But let's move ahead to this weekend. We got more fights this weekend. Point for round three goes to it goes to Phoenix just because that first answer was so amazing. I mean, I thought it was going to be a 10-6 round at that point, but Jose made it very close.

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Air Canada. Nice travels. Wi-Fi available to AeroPen members on equipped flights. sponsored by Bell. Conditions apply. See Air Canada.com. Let's talk UFC Vegas 42. I think this one is. Yes.

It's on Saturday. Main event, the return of Max Holloway takes on Yaya Rodriguez. Amazing fight at 145. Title shot on the line more than likely. Right now, according to Draft Kings, and this is mind-boggling to me. It's just weird to look at it. Max Holloway is a minus 720 favorite, and the comeback on Yaya Rodriguez is plus 500. Jose, not just with the betting lines, and I get it.

It's Holloway coming off one of these single greatest performances in UFC history in January against Calvin Cater. Rodriguez hasn't fought in over two years. But this is the Holloway show in everybody's eyes. Even media members out there in Twitterverse, disrespecting Yair, saying, hey, Max Holloway's fighting this weekend, guys, it's Max Holloway. fight week, no mention of the Iyer Rodriguez whatsoever. What's up with that, Jose? Is this just full on praise

for Max Holloway? Or is Yaya just getting completely overlooked here? Because I find this a little bit fascinating. I think it's a little bit of both. It's out of sight, out of mind. I mean, Yair is easily like step for step, second for second, one of the more exciting unpredictable fighters in the entire UFC,

let alone the featherweight division. I think two years ago, if you would have told me two years ago that these two were fighting in the main event, I would assume it's for a title, and Max Holloway was still the champion. You heard the stories out of Jackson, like, Izzy wrestling and everything. Like, when Holly Holmes beat Rhonda Rousey,

Izzy-style wrestling right there was like, Yair's next, Yair's next. So for years, we assumed Yair was going to get a title shot. But it's these long breaks between fights that kind of have done him a disservice, maybe in the eyes of the fans. The talent is clearly still there. It combines with the fact that Max,

Holloway is one of those rare champions where he loses the fight, the back-to-back fights, and everyone thinks that he deserves the third shot. And then he doesn't get it. And he's still fighting, and he's just as exciting as ever. I mean, that Calvin Cater fight was just the culmination of a beatdown. Like, that was tough to watch.

And Max Holloway, like, I asked Dana and Max this. Like, there are moments that there are epic and legendary fights, but then there are singular moments that you just see on Instagram and Twitter. And Max Holloway just, like, he just walks and breathes that, like those viral moments, the pointing at the ground against Ricardo Lama, teaching Brian Ortega how to properly block in the middle of a fight, shouting, I'm the best boxer in the UFC, and then no looking, weaving and dodging, and then blasting Calvin Cater with the right hand. Like, Max Holloway is outside of Justin Gage, which has been a dream fighter mine forever, I think Max Holloway is the most exciting fighter on the UFC. roster in terms of just excitement that he brings. And like he has such like, I don't think people realize how big of a crossover he has to the mainstream world.

Freaking like he and he was on the announcement for Facebook turning to meta. Facebook is like everyone knows what Facebook in the world is one of the biggest companies in the history of planet Earth. And Max Holloway is standing there speaking with Mark Zuckerberg about meta, which is like broke the internet for a hot minute. So I think it's no surprise. Max Hollow I think is one, if not. I think even Casey, like our colleague,

he might even put Max Holloway as the best featherweight in the world. So we've said for a long time, anytime you can watch the best do anything, I'm going to be excited. I think Max is tied. Is that a way to say it for the best featherweight in the world with Alex Volcanowski? And I selfishly want to see a third fight.

Yair at worst is a top five featherweight in the world. It's unfortunate that he took these. long breaks because he deserves a lot more respect from the fans. It's just he happens to be getting in a fist fight with Max Holloway. Way to plant your flag on the top featherweight in the world, Jose. I dig it. I dig it. It's tough conversation, though.

At the division is so tough. Volcanowski's so good. Holloway is so good. It's, I don't know. I want to see those guys fight 15 times. What do you make of this whole build, Phoenix? Because it just seems, like I said earlier, this is the Max Holloway show. Yaya is just kind of there with him.

What have you made of this whole thing? It's sort of that pretty much what Jose said, the out of sight, out of mind thing. And it's one of those things where unfortunately, Yair hasn't not, he hasn't proven himself enough since that Frankie Edgar fight because there was too much time in between. And because, yes, he had this amazing knockout, you know, with the spinning elbow, I believe it was. It was a spinning elbow, right? Yeah, it was like a, it was like a 612 elbow. Yeah. It was amazing and I watched it a thousand times and I'm sure it made SportsCenter and everything. But for everyone who was watching, I believe he was losing up until that point.

So this is one of those things where a moment in time has haunted you because you haven't done enough to get past it. If you had one bad move but you have a couple of good ones, people will always remember the one stinker. And it wasn't that it was a stinker, but with the fight against Frankie, Frankie says, set a quote that still lingers in people's minds with, you know, there's levels to this game. So because we haven't seen enough of Yair, people haven't seen what level he's at. And it is a shame because I don't necessarily agree with that. I think he's a dynamic striker. I think he's explosive. I think that, you know, within two years, based off of some of the interviews that he's given, he spent a lot of time refocusing and training. And COVID was nobody's fault and injuries happen.

very often in the game, and it just shows that timing has a lot to do with popularity just as much as where you are in the rankings. So he really needs to show out. So even if he does lose to Max, which, you know, it looks like he will because Max is Max, he needs to show all of these improvements. He needs to show his gameness. He needs to keep hanging out within these top five, top ten guys, and continue to grow. And he's young enough to do so. It's just, you know, Max is Max is Max. And because it's like if he doesn't get a third fight with Volcanowski, he's talking about 155. He's talking about other options. He's talking about conversations that he's had that he can't tell us about.

So when loser draw, Yair needs to show off a little bit in this fight so that he regains more fans and more faith from the fans and the media. I have to ask this because this was presented as a point many times before the first fight got canceled. I want to get both of your opinions on this and see if you believe there's any merit to this. Phoenix, Max Holloway does not need to take this fight. There are many other fights that are probably more interesting and more challenging in his eyes that he could take. No disrespect to I-e-eer-Rodriguez. Like you said, he could go to 55. I wanted to see Holloway-Ga-Ga-Ga-Fight.

I thought that made all the sense in the world because he wants challenges, all of that. a lot of people feel that this fight is happening so that Max Holloway can go out there and just wipe the floor at the Ayer so the UFC could just release him and send him on his way. Do you think there's any truth to that? Like, do you think the UFC is thinking in that way at all? Releasing Max? No.

No, yeah, yeah. Oh, for him to do what? For him to go where? I actually haven't thought about it. I didn't even think about this as a possibility. but if he says, hey, I don't want to, I can't compete with these top five guys and I can have a great time over at Bellator and won and make a lot of money, then it's not a bad idea. But how much damage do you want to take from Max Holloway in your career like ever? Or how much bad performances do you want to have on your record? I mean, I just think, and with a warrior's mindset, I don't, I don't necessarily know if it's the way to go, but when you got bills to pay, maybe it is. I don't know. well i mean more and i'll ask jose and then i'll kind of throw it back to you i mean more from like the ufcn the ufc in yair they've had issues he's been cut already they brought him back all these the zebite fights he just

kept holding out hoping for the zabit fight letting other opportunities go by and he hasn't fought in two years yes there's injuries yes there's covid but there were other opportunities for him to get back in there he chose to play different you know plan his flag on the zabit fight it never happened now here we are with Max. And a lot of people really feel like the UFC is paying Max Holloway a bunch of money to just beat the hell out of Yair and so the UFC could just cut him and send him on his way

and they can just cut ties and move on. Do you think there's any truth to that at all? I mean, there's probably a sliver of truth just because nothing would surprise me with the UFC. Like there's been pettier things that they've done. Like to champions,

like they've cut Yair and brought him right back maybe to send a message to like, oh, look, we can cut you at the drop of a hat like like you ain't shit so it wouldn't surprise me just because also let's not forget and like i i don't want yair to be cut i don't want anyone to lose their job i have never dealt with the i are business wise or contract contractually or anything but also let's not forget he had a usada suspension not because of a failed test he had three where like whereabouts like he didn't tell them where he was and if usada shows up to your house where you said you are and you're not there and that happens three times as an automatic like violation like he had

a use anti-doping violation but it wasn't that he tested positive for anything it's that he no basically no showed some drug tests and like they had no idea where where his whereabouts were so maybe maybe he's difficult to deal with i have no idea they clearly cut him for a reason uh what was it like a year and a half between like between his fights then i i believe that zombie fight that he like the one that that Phoenix was talking about. Like Casey and I were actually at that fight. That was the famous friendly hair weekend with me and Mike Perry. I believe it was Frankie Edgar was supposed to fight the Korean zombie.

And then he stepped up on short notice and got that epic win. And then he fought what? They gave him a main event against Jeremy Stevens. And then with the eye poke and they gave him a quick turnaround in Boston in a very fun fight. And that was pretty much his last three fights. So clearly if he's winning, they put all the marketing. behind him, but it wouldn't surprise me. The UFC has done pettier things

for like, who was it, Jason High? Was that he the one that got cut for like touching a referee and like we've like then Habib and Connor like fist fighting the crowd and they're still around so I don't know. Nothing would surprise me. Yeah, because he turned down a fight

with Ricardo Lammis and then I guess they offered him as a beat and he said no and Daniel was like nah, guys have fought in the air we're just going to cut him. Like it's just the silliest stuff ever and this is such a UFC way of thinking, which is the only reason I brought out that question. Right, but it's the fact that we're having this conversation and it's not out of the realm of possibility is a problem.

Huge problem. We can do a whole show about business practices and the way the UFC conducts themselves from time to time. We talked about it with Leon Edwards and Carlos Spars. It's insane. The way their line of thinking is absolutely unbelievable. But that is the UFC. Let us move over to Bellator. They're heading to South Florida, first time in the promotions history.

They are back on Friday. Chris Cyborg headlines against Chenade Kavanaugh for the featherweight title. We get the return of Aaron Pico against Justin Gonzalez, Tyrol Fortune versus... Who the hell is he fighting? I should probably notice. Oh, Lillian Vesel.

There we go. Valerie O'Raea. Sorry, Belator. I love you guys. Some pretty good fights for the South Florida debut. So Phoenix, looking at this Bellator card, top to bottom. I think we all know what to expect.

No offense to Shnade Kavanaugh in this main event. But looking at this card, What's the top storyline? Like, what question will you be seeking to get an answer to above all else on Friday? Well, okay. So the most obvious one is Aaron Pico's rise. And he is going against an undefeated fighter who is also really talented. I remember him from the LFA.

It's Justin Gonzalez. Usually if you win an LFA title, you're pretty good. I mean, they're really good about doing the matchups there, which I respect. So, you know, watching Aaron Pico grow has been great. He had a tough start and we've watched him evolve. We've watched him win with not just submissions, but, you know, also I think it was like a massive overhand. He's just become a more well-rounded athlete and he's had the opportunity to breed and grow. And it just looks like a pretty fair matchup. The cyborg situation kind of upset me today because I went on the, I went on the media call and I was like almost trying to have. help cyborgs sell the fight a little bit. And I was just basically saying like, hey, you know, how's this girl dangerous? Basically saying like, you know, just sell your fight a little bit because your household name and here's just another person. Everybody's expecting you to smash. And she was like, ah, you could ask her that. You know, I was like, well, you know, you guys have

similar styles and the fact that you, you know, you're kind of explosive and you rush forward and you have strong powerful boxing and strong hands. She's like, yeah, she's a boxer. I'm an M.M.A. Fighter, I can do it all. And I'm like, I know that cyborg, but like, get us excited about it a little bit because, you know, what was interesting, though, which I did kind of find funny, is that cyborgs trolling her a little bit. She's been leaving. I haven't seen this movie, but like squid game cars with cards with her face on it, like all the places that Chenade has been going, which I'm like, that's kind of funny. That's like something that they can play on. but besides just what I read from the press releases,

I haven't heard about any of this. So it's unfortunate that in some ways they don't sell their fights a little bit more, give us more storylines besides like the work I have to do to sort of research it. But, you know, I was excited about, you know, those two fights because it's always fun to watch Cyborg Fight. I do really like Aaron Pico. I think Justin Gonzalez is a good fighter. And then Cody Law from, I think he's from ATT also.

he's fighting as well, so he's an interesting fighter to watch. He's really talented. And Valerie Laredo is fighting as well. I forget the home of the girl fighting, but she... Taylor Turner. Yeah, yeah. So, like, there's a few, like, interesting matchups, you know, on the event.

I just wish there was more to the story, if that makes sense. I think that's kind of the story of the last two years of Belatoria, if we're being honest there. They do the right things in terms of drafting a roster and picking up prospects and trying to build upon something. But in terms of promotion, man, God, they just, they need to bring somebody on. That's for sure. Just do better. Let people know these fights are happening.

Like, that's all you got to do. Give me 90 seconds. 90 seconds of Justin Gonzalez and his background. You know what I mean? Like 90 seconds of like why I should give, you know, a shit about Chenade. Like, you know, she's got a boxing pet. degree. She's boxed with Katie Taylor. I don't know if you know who Katie Taylor or she's amazing.

You know, it's like, just show me. Just show me. Give me like, get an intern to do it. They'll take college credit. You know, everybody's got editing equipment now. Come on. Get these, just get the fighters on some

shows. Like, get them on ESPN, get them on CBS. Get them somewhere. Let them out get them out, get them on the freaking tonight show or something. Anything. Anything. Showtime does a lot. of boxing. There's no reason they shouldn't be plugging the hell out of things on their boxing shows. Yeah, good idea. Just like watching, trying to watch the Bellator Dublin card and the first,

I missed the first round and a half of the first main card fight because we're watching the Canelo Alvarez Caleb Plant story and documentary getting you ready for that fight. I'm like, where's the fights? Where's the main card? They made a mistake. Like, do that. Do that. Like, when these fights are happening, you should be like, hey, guess why? Chris Siam. One of the most dominant female fighters of all time. Maybe the goat, she's fighting on Friday night. And you can watch it right here on our network. You don't even have to pay for it unless you have a subscription.

It's a beautiful thing. They don't do that. It's insane. When A.J. McKee became the featherweight champion. I'm like, this guy needs to be on Good Morning America. The Today Show. You just send this guy everywhere, and they don't do it. It drives me insane.

On the AJ McKee point, after he won, a lot of people were saying, oh, he's the breakthrough fighter, this and that. If you look at his social media from like that fight to I don't know the exact date, he gains like 10,000 Instagram followers. Patty Pimlet lost his Instagram and gains like 80,000 Instagram followers in a day and got a freaking seven-figured contract with Barstool. And he's not even a champion. Like Bellator's like I don't even want to hear a Bellator name for Breakthrough Fire

of the Year because they don't even know how to, They can't even break through their own fighters. And here's Patty Pimblatt, who's O and O in the UFC, just doing everything himself. Believe it or not, this is why I like Jake Paul. This is why I actually like Jake Paul, because I think that in a lot of ways, he's good for these people, like a person like Amanda Serrano and other people that are in the come up with, they happen to get on these cards because they will be promoted in some way, even if it's just under, under his shadow.

But, I mean, listen, there's still, if you, if we look past that, it just look at the cards. I mean, there's some good cards. Like, there were some magical moments on that doubling card. James Galaher's walkout. I've watched it a thousand times. It's just so good. It's so good.

Like, just play that over and over again. Our cards are awesome. Look at our fans. Look how excited they are. You don't have to say where it is. Most people don't even know. Just put it out there. We're in Oklahoma.

We're in Oklahoma right now. You can just play that clip. That was, that's the problem with, like, I'm pretty sure, like, we all know Julia Budd is an astounding fighter, but she fought in Thackerville how many times in a row. And then she gets thrown in against Cyborg and lost in, like, L.A. with a full crowd, like, that, I don't care. Like, Cyborgs lives in L.A. at this point, Huntington Beach. So, like, hometown crowd for Cyborg in front of the biggest crowd, Julie Budd's ever seen as a champion. Rough night at the office. Yes.

And I like Bellator's roster a lot. They could do something with this roster. 100%. They just got to do a better job putting these fighters over and telling their stories. There is no reason why Corey Anderson

and Vadim Kempcats shouldn't be fighting in New York. Massive Russian population and Corey Anderson is from Jersey, like the Jersey Long Island area. That's where he trains. But again, that's a layup,

so it probably won't happen. Yeah, it's going to be in Phoenix, Arizona, which is nothing wrong with Phoenix, Arizona. I'm not going to complain. Yeah, you'll be there. It'll be nice. and the crowd will be, will be hot, and that's cool. And people call the media a bunch of losers in the crowd,

because they're all drunk and silly, like you guys experienced the last card. No, we got called lame. Lame, that's the word. Y'all are lame. I was like, I'm sorry. There was a woman that, because Phoenix wasn't on that show, there was a woman behind because if you cover Bellator, like we're so close to the crowd.

There was a woman who was very pro Ryan Bader. And when he lost, we were like writing. about it and she goes, y'all are lame. And she just kept screaming at us the whole time. I'm like, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I didn't do it. Yeah.

I don't mean to go down on Bellator. I just wish they had more information or more promotion for their fights. That's all. I think the shows are amazing. I think, you know, I'm glad there would showtime now. I just, I'm trying to find info on some of these people sometimes. and it's not that easy. Yeah, and the virtual media days are, they could be tough.

They could be tough to go through. I think we all know. But anyways, what sticks out to you, Jose? What's the top storylight on this card on Friday for you? What are you excited about? I mean, obviously, Chris Seibor, because anytime you can watch the best, if someone do something, I'm going to watch them do it.

I don't care who it's against. And I think I put Chris two or three, clearly top five-grade women's fighters of all time. Amanda, I think it's still number one, and then it's an argument between Rhonda, Cyborg, and Valentina at this point. Pam Sorensen is fighting on the main card. A lot of people thought for a long time she was the best featherweight

outside of the UFC, and I just thought it was very bizarre that the UFC was signing up all these featherweights to basically feed to Chris and Amanda, and Pam wasn't one of them, considering she was the invicted champion for a long time. And then when she lost to Phileas Herrick, police Harris, police Spencer, right away, the UFC science, Phlees Spencer, and then Pam

Thornton just gets released and goes to Bellator. So happy she's on the main card because Chris a Chris versus Pam fight, I think would be at least, I'm not going to say draw numbers, but it would be two Invicta champs. You know, that's another story that Bellator can ignore. Shenei Kavanaugh, I think the one that's like Connor McGregor tweeting about her is the one aspect of this fight that like Bellator probably loves because they're getting some plug from Connor McGregor. And then Mahmoud Fazi, is that he pronounced his name?

He's like this hardcore Egyptian wrestler Who's like what, 3 and 0, 2 and O MMA? I think he's fighting on the YouTube prelims. Is that where they're shown? So I'm excited to watch. I think he's the first fight of the card. So I guess I'm interested to see how he does Mostly because any time you can get a crazy like wrestler

from that part of the world to jump over into MMA. I'm going to pay attention. So I think I like how they're doing the slow build right now. And so there's big names. games, but I don't think any fight that I'm like, oh, I can't miss this fight, not like, like McKee and Pitbull or the Fedor fight or Nemcov and Bader and Anderson. So this is a fight card that I'm glad Florida is getting it. Valor later will draw a lot of numbers and people stick around to watch Chris Cyborg fight. Yes. And if you're watching this right now,

if you want to hear more from Valerie Relator, a very, very focused individual. She had a lot of really interesting things to say when I spoke with her earlier today. So go check that out on our YouTube channel, but it's a big decision right now. I feel like a judge in Madison Square Garden. I don't want to mess this one up. The point for round four goes to Jose Youngs. It's two to two. What a shocker here on BTL.

And you know what that means. It's time for the knocker round. One question decides it all. It's a fun one. I didn't know which way to go. I thought about it this morning. And it's only because Jed and I had such a great conversation in one of the roundtable BTLs leading into this tournament

that I wanted to get your take on this. Yes, Jed Mishu coming through with some inspiration for the knockout round question. But it was new to the program. One minute for these wonderful competitors to answer the question they have no idea about. After that one minute for each competitor is up, we will turn on over to the judge, the jury,

the executive producer, the Honorable E. Casey Lydin, who will render the final decision. And there he is on the bottom right-hand corner of your screen. So Jose, you were actually the winner of the blind draw this week. We put both names in a random generator. You came up. What do you want to do?

You want to go first? You want to pass it on over to Phoenix? We're getting the same question? Getting the same question. Ladies first. All right. Turn out over to the boogie woman of BTL according to the fans of the show. You keep calling her the boogie woman, but Sean Alshadie, when we had a meeting, he's like,

when are you going to face the Undertaker today? I was like, go. that's a good name. The Undertaker, I mean, all these, all these scary names, Phoenix. This is unbelievable. And you're such a delight. I would have to like lay down and then pop up really quick.

I know. We need the Phoenix gong every time she comes on the show. Okay, so here's what inspired this conversation, okay? Me and Jed were just randomly having a conversation about the PFL and the PFL championship and what it all meant. and what they've done the last couple of years, especially this past year since they didn't have a 2020 season due to the pandemic and they canceled it,

PFL is obviously a very different product. They do different things. They have different stats that MMA fans don't know about. They have all these bells and whistles that we don't even think about. But there's something missing, Phoenix. There's something missing from the PFL. And I feel like of all these organizations, the UFC Bellator, what have you,

I feel like the PFL is in a position where they can do some interesting things. They can take some interesting chances, still put on a high-level product with high-level fights, but do things a little bit differently and just make it more fun and give viewers a reason to watch another MMA promotion, but we're different than the rest of them. So my question to you in one minute or less, and we probably need more than a minute, what can the PFL do to be better? They had a pretty good year.

What can they do to take things to the next level? It's the UFC, it's Bellator. PFL is bunched in with some other promotions of this point in a lot of people's opinions. What can PFL do moving forward to get closer to the Bellator's and get closer to the UFCs of the world? One minute on the clock. Your time starts now. Well, I think you kind of hit the nail on the head, which is they have to not be just another UFC or just another Bellator. And their original idea with having the tournament styles, which was the right way to go, so that you had something look forward to,

you added a lot of the amount of time to do it. One thing, their production is beautiful, but it's just the pacing just, it turns you off to such a way that you're like, I got shit to do when you're watching it. So I think work, am I wrong? I mean, working on the production of the pacing is probably one of the biggest deals.

And I think building the matchups a little bit better, maybe with how they package things together. Like, I'm just a big person for marketing. I need stories, even if it's 60 seconds here. 30 seconds there. So that's one of the things they can do to get interested is just make it tighter. Make it shorter and make it tighter. I love the idea of winning prizes and money and all that type of stuff,

but that doesn't mean anything to the fans. It means more for the fighters. Good answer. PFL getting some big plugs here on the program and they're off seasons. They prepare for the 2022 season. Jose, same question for you. How can we make PFL better? How can we make it more interesting?

What can they do to take more? steps forward. I think they get some momentum right now. They need to build upon it. How can they do that? One minute starts now. Well, what they have to do is they have to not book Clarissa Shields against high-level grapplers. Or not even high-level grapplers. Anyone that wants to shoot for a takedown, don't have them fight

Clarissa Shields. Just getting into a fist fight on there. Because then you're just like, like, when they made that fight, everyone was like, what are you doing? No, you're shooting yourself in the foot. Like, that's the problem. Like, hey, stop tripping over your own feet. I have been said for years, wins and losses, matter in MMA, so I don't have a problem with this league, million dollar tournament thing.

But if no one watches, then no one cares. You got to bring in like, we all remember pride and we're like, we had these fun fights with Strike Force. And like, even the UFC brought James Tony in for these freak show fights. You need something fun at the top of the card. And then you get all the epic fights that people tune into. Like Eddie Alvers, Michael Chandler, their rematch wasn't, not scheduled to be the main event. That was supposed to be King Moe. And Rampage was the main event. And then that was the co-main event. That's what they need to do. They need to bring in eyeballs.

No one's tuning in to watch Wiz Khalifa talk. They'll tune in to watch him get in a fist fight. That's a no-brainer. Oh, I love it. PFL just took a step for it. I think Jed's ideas were good talking about a bounty on Kayla Harrison. Like, every time she fights, you put $50,000 in a pool. And every time she wins, you add to that and you just build the pots.

And not only if you win, beat her for a million dollars, you get all this extra pool money, too. So it's extra motivation for those fighting Kayla. We had all sorts of fun ideas, a prize wheel, adding a gimmick for Kayla Harrison's fights. Like, she has to tie her left hand behind her back. Like, just fun things we can do. Just fun things to spice it up a little bit. Give Kay a little bit of a challenge. Give us fans something to watch.

Give me something like Quintet, give me something like Quintet where they did like Team Strike Force versus Team WEC. Like, give me something bananas like that. Survivor Series style, I dig it. Like a contract on a pole match. Like I'm all on a bottle. Let's think outside the box. We don't have to get all fight circusy, but we could still have some fun with MMA after all.

So, Casey, we turn it on over to you. You have a very difficult decision here because you've probably been thoroughly entertained by this battle. This is one of the, this is what everybody expected to me. This is the Justin Gagey versus Michael Chandler of between the links right here. Exceeding expectations, Casey.

Now you're going to make a very difficult decision because one of these great competitors is out of here, and one is moving on to take on maybe the livest dog in this fight. Alexander K. Lee, Jose's face, he hasn't seen A.K. all fired up. What do we got, Casey? Who's moving on? Who wins this Battle of the Titans? First of all, thank you for the wonderful competition. It was great. There are no losers here. Actually, there is going to be a loser, but, yeah, there will be a loser, yeah, unfortunately. and it's my job to decide who that loser is.

Let's keep it positive. So Phoenix, pacing, pacing, pacing, Jose. More fun. Bring some more names then. Get Wiz Ghalifa, less rapping, more fighting. Oh, man. All right. Made a decision.

You're a winner. and still undefeated Phoenix Carnival She gets it done Phoenix Carnival Gets her done Pacing, dude I got shit to do

When you said I got shit to do I was like that is so true I do have shit to do Those PFLs go way too late I got shit to do And I'm getting old I guess

I'm sorry It was It was a hard decision It was a hard decision I'm sorry Congratulations Congratulations Thank you

I was stressing about this all day because I love Jose. Amazing. I always love Casey's reasonings for choosing winners. Oh yeah? I've also got shit to do. She wins.

She wins. I mean, there's so many things that I had things to do. There's so many things to fix up PFL. It was like, oh, maybe less PFL. It might be the key. Tighter. Tighter. Tighten up. Tighten up a little bit.

What a battle. Tremendous battle. Hey, listen, we always need alternates. You never know what's going to happen, Jose. We'd love to welcome you back into the fold if needed. We'd love to have you come in as a special guest judge of needed. At worst, I'm the second best person in this tournament, which we all know is the answer anyway. Tusha.

Well said. Phoenix, you're going to face Alexander K. Lee in a few weeks' time in the semifinals. Would you like to say anything to the Prince of Positivity, a little message for Alexander K. Lee? You better study up. You better stretch. Be hydrated because we're going to make this happen. Whoa, whoa. Sorry, sorry.

Quick interruption. I just got, oh, an update. Oh, what? Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Okay. Here we go.

Oh, hello. What? Hello. What? Phoenix, Phoenix, Canada Valley, I am not impressed by your performance to quote another famous Canadian. Listen,

first of all, all right, good stuff. The Latinos are here and we came to take over, right? Oh, boy. Got them. Listen, as Jose was kind of suggesting, a lot of people would have thought this maybe could have been the finals. And thank goodness it wasn't, because thank goodness we just got this one out of the way.

instead of building up this false anticipation. This matchup was, I was watching guys. I was watching the show. So much agreeing, so much pleasantries. No one wants to see that crap. I am now, I cannot wait now. Phoenix, I have fought both Phoenix and Jose in the BTL Cage Award.

This is a new man. I have embraced my role now as a fan favorite, as a man of the people. I don't need all this fancy research, this training you've actually done, these $5 words, the fact that, oh, you're engaged, you have someone who loves you, unlike myself,

who will very likely die alone. But let me tell you something. And Jose will appreciate this. A man without hope is a man without fear, and I have nothing to live for, and I'm coming for you. Wow. Well, you know what?

Maybe you'll bring out the viciousness in me, which does exist, only on the New York City subway system, but maybe we can bring it out here. See, the Raptors finally get a home game. AK gets a haircut, learns how to shave his own face, and he becomes an angry individual.

It's amazing, and he kind of went to some dark places. Kind of went to some dark places, something to look forward to. What a match of it's going to be. A.K. Hungry. A lot of people overlooking AK, but he's taking it very personally.

He's ready to shock a lot of people. people, the Matt Serra of this tournament, if you will. So looking forward to that match. It's been a few weeks' time. Next week, Jed Mishu returns to the BTL cage taking on a hungry up-and-comer, Alex Wendling, who took part in the BTL-50 gauntlet tournament. She's competed in other events as well on this program. She returns to take on Jed Mishu. A lot of people feel like Jedges is going to run her over. She's seeing what everyone's saying. She's ready to go. So stay tuned for that. That'll be next week. And as far as this week's goes, we're done.

We are done. What a show was. For Jose, for Phoenix. A.K., thank you for stopping by, my best friend. Always a pleasure to see you. Later, everybody. I say what he said to say. Casey on the ones and choose.

I am Ikech. See you next week up between the links. Good night, everybody. This has been Between the Links and M.A. Fighting Production on the Vox Media Podcast Network. And this is not the iconic voice of Esther Lennon. You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. work.