MMA Fighting - BTL | Umar Nurmagomedov Shines, Topuria vs. Holloway Tops UFC 308 Lineup, Ngannou's MMA Return Set

Episode Date: August 8, 2024

A slew of massive MMA bouts were announced for both the UFC and PFL featuring some of the sport's biggest and rising stars. In the main event of UFC 308 in Abu Dhabi, Ilia Topuria defends the featherweight title against BMF champ Max Holloway, while Robert Whittaker and Khamzat Chimaev have been rebooked for the co-main event.  On an all-new edition of Between the Links, the panel reacts to the current UFC 308 lineup, the top-two fights, and where that now leaves UFC307 — which is slated to take place three weeks earlier. Additionally, topics include Francis Ngannou's MMA return announced vs. Renan Ferreira at PFL's superfight pay-per-view in October with Cris Cyborg and Larissa Pacheco serving as the co-main event, Umar Nurmagomedov defeating Cory Sandhagen in the main event of UFC Abu Dhabi, and where that puts his stock at 135 pounds, and much more.  Host Mike Heck moderates the matchup between MMA Fighting's Jed Meshew and the Co-Main Event Podcast's Ben Fowlkes. Follow Mike Heck: @MikeHeck_JR Follow Jed Meshew: @JedKMeshew Follow Ben Fowlkes: @benfowlkesMMA Subscribe to MMA Fighting Check out our full video catalog Like MMA Fighting on Facebook Follow on Twitter Read More: http://www.mmafighting.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Okay, only 10 more presents to wrap. You're almost at the finish line. But first? There, the last one. Enjoy a Coca-Cola for a pause that refreshes. Your business doesn't move in a straight line. Make sure your team is taken care of through every twist and turn with Canada Life Savings, Retirement and Benefits plans.

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But shout out to Jed Mishu and crew for holding down the fort. But as usual, a ton of topics to discuss. So let us introduce the panel. Let's get right into it. First, I just mentioned him, the hot take kid himself, Mr. No Gray area, the Baron of Boop, and a bunch of

other nicknames that I just don't want to run off right now. From MMAfighting.com, Jedmishu. How are you, buddy? I'm a little sad. I like the best. big chair. It's a, it's a wonderful feeling to have all the power. Just hold the power in your hands, Mike. And now I'm back here with the plebeians. But at least we've got somebody new. We're

spicing things up. Variety is the spice of life, Mike. And we've brought some today. So it should be fun. Yes. As was mentioned before we went live, a lot of hair going on in this episode, not on mine because making his BTL debut. And I'm actually mad at myself for waiting this long to bring him on the program, but you know him from the world renowned co-main event podcast. He's one of the best damn writers in all of combat sports. And now you can add BTL panelists to his lengthy resume, which includes being one of the OGs here at M-Afighting.com. The great Ben Folks joins the program. How are you, sir? I'm all right. You know, I've only now realizing that in my head, at least, I've been mispronouncing Jedd's last name every time I see it pop up on Twitter. Now I know. Now I know I can

correct myself. What do you pronounce? How did you pronounce it before? Mayshu? I was saying I mean, I wasn't actually saying it. I was just alone in my kitchen looking at Twitter on my phone and being like Jed Mayshu has another one. He seems angry about something on Twitter and I love it. Not me. I've never been angry on Twitter. Refused to be angry on Twitter. That's not the place for that. please don't put it in the newspaper that I got mad please don't as soon as John Jones starts tweeting Jed will be tweeting as well and we're all in for a merry day I'm excited for this and we'll

or Dana White or Dana White yes yes Dana Michael Chandler I mean the list goes on and on for what could get Jed going on social media I think Ben's going to fit in great here that I have no doubt so let's get right into it let's put a bow on this past weekend UFC Abu Dhabi most notably the current stock of one. Umar Nirmagamadoff.

He defeats Corey Sanhagen, 50, 45, a one card, 49, 46, and the other two. And there were a lot of questions about Umar, Narragamadoff heading into this one, Ben Fulks. A lot of hype surrounding him heading into this fight. Is he as good as people think he is? Is the lack of rank, lack of ranked competition going to catch up with him? Is he as advertised? So I ask you, Ben, folks, is he as advertised? Your reaction to the performance and what you learn from him in this fight?

First of all, I found myself coming away from this one going, is there a Nirmagamatov out there who just wants to be a poet? Like, is there, is one of them, just tell me there's one of them who is like, actually I took a couple of wrestling classes and it wasn't for me. And so I went to study modern dance in the Martha Graham school. Like, just tell me there's one. You know, just so I can sleep a little better at night. But yeah, he comes out of this one and you go, yeah, this is the toughest test he's faced. He proved that he's totally up to it. One question I have coming out of some of these events, though,

you can make this argument with the upcoming fight night event you got this weekend is it's like if a tree falls in the forest kind of situation. If you have a great performance, but it's also a performance where this is not Griffin Bonner where people are calling each other up on the phone and being like you turn the channel onto ABC. You've got to see what's happening right now. It's a performance the hardcore is appreciate. But maybe other people.

aren't exactly having their hair set on fire with excitement for Umar after a performance like that. Do you think that hurts the ongoing, you know, popularity, especially in a weight class where you got to have a little bit of sizzle for us to get excited about you as a title contender, you know? Jed, you've been high on Umar for a long time and he gets the big test against Corey Sanhagan. This is the one everybody wanted to see. And he goes out there and gets a win. Hard fought win nonetheless, but the scorecards indicate if you didn't watch the fight that he went out there and just kind of beat the hell out of Corey Sandhagen.

Those who watch the fight don't exactly feel that way, but what did you learn? Where is his stock right now? I'm sure this is gold, Jed, but I can't hear you. Sorry, I'm also watching the Olympics, so I'm muting my mic because I'm getting unreasonably excited to watch Aaron Brooks handle this Bulgarian dude. Nonetheless, I didn't learn anything because I already felt it deep in my bones. but I got it confirmed for me yeah that's the best bannam weight in the world dude uh I don't know what to tell you Corey Sanhagen is like at worst

a top five bantam weight if not higher and yes fight was extremely competitive it wasn't a drubbing or an ass kicking but it started being competitive and slowly just went along the path of you know more pretty cleanly winning this one Corey can't really do anything functional

here Corey can survive and minimize, but he cannot thrive and kind of score his own offense. And as the fight went on, that became more and more prevalent. And you're just watching it being like, okay, this dude still has stuff that he can work on. Like, no fighter is perfect. Do Moor certainly is not. But he clearly has shown progression from like each fight in and out. And then he just showed progression and awesome ability against one of the best dudes in the world.

the biggest moment of his career by far was not too big for him at all and then as that fight went on his first five-rounder in the UFC just looked better like he beat corey santagin striking which nobody really thought was happening his boxing his kicking game was on point uh I believe that he would just rinse mirab vallishvili I don't think that fight would be particularly competitive willing to be wrong and I think that he would will beat Sean O'Malley should he fight Sean O'Malley. But I can at least see an avenue how Sean O'Malley can maybe take some of the stuff. Corey Sanagan showed to defend himself. And he is a much more dangerous one-shot artist than Corey Sandagan is. But ultimately, I'm not picking a dude who weighs 135 pounds or less to beat that guy for some time because they've been saying that he's like the best dude in the camp for a while. And when your camp is Habib and Islam and Usman, you should stand up and take notice of statements like, that and yeah man man's the best best band in the world and I'm pumped to see him kind of

continue to fight the top end of the weight class because that's been the only thing missing is is the big names and now nothing will stand between him and fighting the biggest names in the weight class and how do you react to that best ban him weight in the world he would rinse marab do you agree with that I don't know if there's anybody who would rinse marab I mean he might he might edge him out but I think that's Marav's a tough fight for anybody, absolutely anybody. And I would be interested, I think like stylistically, those are the questions I would have about Umar versus either Marab or Sean O'Malley.

They're both different stylistic questions and to see how his style would match up against those guys. I also think, though, if you're the UFC and you are looking at all the things that you've been able to do with Sean O'Malley as your champion here, if he gets through Marab, still ends up champion after that. And you're looking around and you're going like, well, we think maybe Umar beats him. Do we, are we excited about that? Are we excited about having that possibility?

A trade in Sean O'Malley for Umar Nirmigometo. I don't know if they are. I don't know if there's going to be a rush for them to make that fight. At a certain point, if you're just so good, you would like to think they can't deny you anymore. I mean, the sad saga of Muhammad Mokaiv would suggest that there's just a possibility otherwise. But it is a great performance in a big step up the ladder for him But to come out of a fight with Corey Sanhagen and be like, okay This guy runs through the two best dudes in the world

I think Bantamweight is like a lot of UFC weight classes right now where there's essentially a few different versions of the weight class and the guys who are Top three might as well be fighting in a different weight class than a lot of these other guys That's interesting Jed I want to go back to you because you know as you both have mentioned. We do have the Bannamway title fight coming up next month at the sphere. We get O'Malley and Marab. And Umar has at least put himself in the discussion to get the winner of that fight. Does he have a better chance of getting it if one guy wins over the other, do you think?

Do you think if Marab wins, he definitely gets it? Or maybe they just run it back with O'Malley because of what they think of him? Or does he have a better chance of getting it if O'Malley wins? Because, I mean, you could do Figgie, but not really sure. You know how the UFC likes to book these fights? Do you think he needs one guy to win over the other? I don't. I think that there are avenues where either man winning in this upcoming Bannamweight title fight

maybe results in him not fighting for the belt immediately. I think they're very remote. Yes, certainly if there's a draw, they'll just run it right back. If Maraub wins a close one, they might just be like, screw it, we want Sean O'Malley, the Cash Cow to have the belt. We're just going to recycle this out. again. Other than that, I think he's getting the title fight, though, because if Sean wins, I mean, Sean has already kind of said he's open to fighting him. Like, yeah, certainly Tim Welch

went on and did an interview and said, hey, man, like, this is a dude with the last name, Norma Gmigametteoff, undefeated coming off a very impressive win. This is the sort of big time fight that makes sense for us. So maybe Sean would look at it and be like, it'd be better if I could fight figurato, but I'm not sure he can even get away with that. He can kind of call that shot or pull that number. I would say that Umar is like 95% to get the next Banimweight title shot. And particularly with Marab, the only way he's not fighting Marab if Maraub wins is if O'Malley gets in immediate rematch.

And I think if Marab wins, it's not going to be a fight where you're saying, we got to run this back. It's going to be Marab doing Marab things and be like, yeah, we can move on to new business for a while. So I think it kind of doesn't matter. He is overwhelmingly likely coming off this to me to get the next title fight barring injury because obviously injury knock on wood. That's always something that can throw kind of chaos into the into the works here. What what percentage would you give Umar getting the next title shot, Ben, after this win? The very next title shot, I'd say no better than 40% chance. I just think that the,

the likelihood that there is something rematch worthy from Sean O'Malley and Marab or just that the UFC feels like make Umar fight one more, make him do something else so that we can build up his profile a little bit to give us a better chance. I mean, the question is, does it matter which guy wins? I think it kind of does because I think if you've got Sean O'Malley and you're looking around for just people to match him up with that would be fresh matchups, you kind of feel like Sean O'Malley is going to bring all the star power you need to sell a pay-per-view. If you got Marab and Umar, I don't know if you have the same juice on that. So I do think it matters who wins. It was a great fight, high-level MMA from both guys.

But real quick, before we move on to the next thing, Ben, tough loss for Sanhagen after the long layoff. I'm sure he's going to take a lot away from this performance. The majority of fans have wanted to see this man get his opportunity to fight for, an undisputed belt someday somehow. And he's still capable on his best day to beat anybody in this division on any given night. But based on where 1.35 is at right now, Ben, like, where does Sanhagen go? And how closed is that door for him in regards to getting an undisputed Bannamweight title

fight in the future? I don't think it's closed. I think he's got still time on the clock. And the thing for him is that he can be such a good and exciting fighter when he gets. gets to do his stuff. And the problem is, what do you do when you go up against somebody who doesn't let you do your stuff, who makes you do their stuff? That's the hard part for him.

And I think that sometimes his style does not translate that well to the scorecards in close fights. We've seen that before with him in other fights where it's like he gets into one where, you know, he gets to do all his complete range of his game looks fantastic. You think like this guy is headed for the top. And then if he gets into a close one where one or two little moments in a round is going to cost you, I don't know if it's that he's just not conscious enough of the judges and the scoring or if it's just that like the stuff he does does not translate as well in some of those close fights. But that feels like the problem to me.

How far away is Sanhagen now, Jed, from getting back? It is 135. O'Malley has mentioned that he would like to fight Corey someday. And if O'Malley's the champion for a hot minute, it's a good little wild card to have, having the, the star and the champion continuously calling your name. He's not far at all because he doesn't have a loss to the champion. And even if he like with this loss to Omar, if Umar does get the belt, again, this was a competitive fight. I thought, I mean, I thought Umar won four rounds.

I thought it was pretty clear. But like this was a competitive outing. And so it would not be like, oh, we can't, we can't rebook this. This can happen down the road. He's still a top five dude in the UFC's ranking. and he's just a couple of wins away at this point. My concerns are more what this fight revealed to me about Corey's hand-tagan, and I just don't know if I've ever noticed it before.

I think he can get back there. It is hard because this is a very good weight class, and it just dawned on me. He's not a very good athlete, and I think that that's like his main limitation here, because he was just not as quick as Umar. Like you go back and rewatch the fight. I was like, oh, you just can't deal with kind of fighting a guy who,

is a good athlete and is also extremely skilled. And there's a lot of dudes in this weight class who are. And so, like, I personally would love to see him fight Henry Suhudo next because let me tell you, Henry Sehudo for his many flaws in life, terrific athlete. And like, also an exceptionally skilled fighter. I think that's a matchup that would kind of reveal to me something about what Corey Sandhagen can do because Sehudo is also a little older. So he's not getting peak prime athleticism Henry Sehudo.

but I think he doesn't need that many wins to get back. This is the first fight where I thought, I don't know if you're going to get the wins in a row that you will need because at some point the top five is just dudes who are really good athletes and you are at a disadvantage in that realm, which is a cheat code in the sport. It's a great fight, great performance, interested to see where both guys go,

but we're going to go somewhere else. We're going to go to the actual biggest story from this past Saturday. The point for round one goes to, it's going to Ben Folks because I just can't get the image of a Nirmaga made off being a poet out of my mind throughout that entire round. So it would be real interested to see what that tree looks like. You don't know what Habib does in his personal time, Ben. You're cast in aspersions.

Do you remember when he got bad about the play? Do you remember when a somewhat sexy play came to Daggett? and Habib did not see it, but got very mad that it had existed. I feel like I kind of know. I kind of know what he's up to. He's giving himself away by being too upset about something as mundane as that. He wasn't mad, I'll tell you, because it completely fell apart in the third act and the character's motivations were unclear.

I'll just say that. We're off to a fantastic start here. So before UFC Abu Dhabi happened, you jump on social media Saturday morning, and you see Dana White on social media yelling and screaming and announced a bunch of fights for UFC 308 October 26th, which coincidentally enough is also in Abu Dhabi. Some we had already confirmed or reported before, but it is going to be Ilya Tuporia versus Max Holloway for the featherweight title headlining this card. And in the five-round co-main event, the UFC is going back. back to the Robert Whitaker versus Humzat Shemai of Well, also five rounds. Jed, we tell the truth on this website. If a card sucks, we will tell you it sucks.

And when a card is great, we'll tell you it's great. These two fights closing the show October 26th, your reaction. Yeah, this card looks pretty deece. This card looks pretty decent. Well, half. Because you said these two fights closing the show. What you meant was this one fight closing the show. because the coming event's not going to happen.

Why are we pretending? Like, I don't understand why we need to keep doing this game. I'll believe Hamzaa Chamaa is going to fight when he shows up to fight week and then makes weight because he hasn't done a whole lot of that in a long time, frankly. But the main event, it's the one we've all wanted since Ilya knocked out Alexander Volcanowski. I've said this plenty of times. I'm really happy they went this direction instead of giving Volcan immediate rematch just because, I don't know, Volk's lost a lot lately.

I'd like him to take some time off before he puts his brain back at risk. And this fight is obviously exceptional. Tuporio Max is, if it's not your most anticipated fight for the remainder of the year, it's only because we have yet to finish Izzy DDP, which is coming right down the pipe for us. Like that fight is bananas, so it's awesome. If through some miracle or divine intervention, Hamzot does actually show up to fistfight a man, that fight will also be exceptional, very excited for. If instead we get Robert Whitaker versus some other dude

who's willing to step in on relatively short notice, that'll still be cool because Bobby Knuckles is awesome. And then the rest of the card, I think there's still some work to do, but it's shaping up like really, really nice. So the Magamund Ankelye of Alexander Rackich fight, like that's a no doubt about it, number one contender fight to me. I kind of wish it wasn't happening because I believe Ankelai

already deserves his crack, but he beats Rackage, no one can deny it. He's 100% going to fight Alex Prair after that. And so the rest of the card is also like very strong. And now we are getting an exceptional main event that really has no bearing on the Middle East, but sure, who cares? And a co-main event theoretically that's quite good. So yeah, this is an awesome announcement. I don't want to say that other thought I have because it leads into our next topic of conversation.

but it does raise one question we'll talk about in the soon to be future. Yes, someone read his show notes and I appreciate that. Ben, Teporia Holloway, Wittaker Shemayef, how in are you on this card with these two fights at the top, at least as of right the second? You know, Teporia and Holloway, you got me right there. That alone, even if you had nothing else of note on that fight card, I'm canceling plans to watch that fight card. Don't invite me to anything on our.

October 26. If you're getting married, I will send a gift. If you're having a funeral, I will send flowers, but I am not going because October 26, I'll be watching that fight. Every once in a while, you know, you'll see a fight that just sort of organically materializes and you're sitting there as a fan looking at the UFC going, don't you screw this one up. Don't overthink it. Don't try to get in the way with some other grand plan you have. Just let it happen. And that's exactly what you have. And that's exactly what you had here with Ilya and Max Holloway, you know, coming off of Max Holloway's UFC 300 performance,

Ilya looking like, you know, he's the future of the weight class there. You got to match those two dues up. And stylistically, I just can't see how you wouldn't get an awesome fight out of it. And so you can sell it on every level possible. However,

I agree that if Hamzaa Chamaev actually shows up and fights Robert Whitaker on the day, I will be surprised. just my first thought when I saw that fight booked was very much looking forward to Bobby Knuckles versus TBD, whoever that might be. Just if you were in the division and you haven't thought a little while, keep your phone on. Keep that thing charged because you might get an opportunity here. And the other thought I had was, is Robert Whitaker who Sean Strickland thinks he is? Because Sean Strickland will want to be out here talking about how he's going to bathe in your blood and he'll fight all comers and all that kind of stuff.

Robert Whitaker actually will do those things. He absolutely will do. The go-along, good-natured sense of this man is incredible to not only just sort of be like, all right, are you ready to give me a title shot yet? No, okay, I'll just keep fighting whoever you got. And then they come back and be like, do you want to try to do this Hamzat thing again? And where a lot of people would be like, no, don't even bring it up to me. I have flashbacks from the last time we went through this.

He's like, yeah, sure. Let's do it. Let's try it again. I'm down for it. Like that that is the entire thing that Sean Strickland would have us believe. It's just that Robert Winnaker is such a nice guy and so good natured about it that he doesn't get the credit. People think you're a psychopath right up until the bell rings. Yeah.

So. So. Yeah. Go ahead, Jed. I was just say, Ben, apparently they didn't even ask him because they were like, obviously you would not want to do this. And then he was like, hey, let's do that. Like, run that back. I'm a.

him, which is boss. So way to go, Bobby Knuckles. Absolutely. I want to ruin their plans, I believe was his, was his quote. And he said that with a smile on his face. He enjoys it so much. Infectious enthusiasm. I think it's an absolutely brilliant move because one of two things is going to happen.

One, he's going to go fight this man and has a chance to beat him, especially in a five rounder. I think that certainly favors Bobby Knuckles. Or if Hamzad doesn't show up, he's. he asked for that fight. And the UFC is going to, he's going to be in the UFC's good graces for asking for this fight a second time.

So that kind of leads me back to this, Ben, because you mentioned it. Sean Strickland has decided to become a business man. Usually this guy's like, I'll fight in four days notice in a parking lot for 500 bucks. Doesn't matter. But now it's like, I'm making all this money. I'm not doing anything besides fighting for a belt right now.

Is he in trouble here if this Whitaker Shemaya fight happens? Is he just kind of screwed? unless timing just lines up beautifully for him? Well, first of all, if Hamzad doesn't show up to this one, Robert Whitaker should go to his house. That's the only thing left to be done. Go to his house, knock on the door, take a few steps back and just stand there and wait.

What else can you do? But I wouldn't say Sean Strickland is in trouble by any means because he still has managed to ensconce himself in the minds of at least a certain segment of the fan base. But it does make me think, you know, when you've been covering this sport a long, long time, as I have, nigh on 20 years now, you feel like you just sort of see the same things happen to different people. And I feel like you're seeing that arc a little bit with Sean Strickland, where when you're on the way up and you sort of got nothing to lose, you're down for whatever. And Sean Strickland kind of got to where he is in part by practically living down the street from the apex and being down to go over there when I'm. they need somebody. They need a warm body in the main event or something. Sean Strickland will go.

And that got him to where he was just sort of always in the conversation. And when they couldn't book the middleweight title fight they wanted between Israel to Sanya and DDP initially, they called Sean Strickland. Sure, he'll take it. He'll go. And then he'll overperform and surprise everybody in the actual fight. And then, you know, now he's in the big chair, at least for a while, has a cup of coffee with the middleweight belt. But you get to that level and now you have something to lose. Now you feel like, wait, I worked hard for this standing. I don't want to just take a chance on sacrificing it. I want to maximize it. And that's how you end up being sort of a different kind of fighter. The classic thing you see there is that everybody is down for whatever

when that's the only thing you have to sell, basically. Once you feel like you have become a commodity unto yourself, well, then you don't want to sell that cheap. You want to make sure you're getting the most out of it. That's what you see with Sean Strickland. The same way you see so many guys who, when they're on the come up, they don't want to criticize the UFC or fight or pay, they got no complaints. They're going to wait until they're champion and then they're going to speak up. And then the next thing you know, they wake up one day, they're 38.

They haven't won a fight in a couple of years and they look back. And now they're upset about it. Like that arc is just as common as the one you see Sean Strickland on. What do you think about this, Chad? Where does Sean Strickland fit in if this fight actually happens between Whitaker and Shemayev? It'll be interesting because next weekend we have the middleweight belt, theoretically, knock on wood, hopefully going up for grabs. And I have no idea if Sean Strickland is planning to be in attendance. Certainly he should be if the people managing his career have any sense about them,

they would have bought that man a plane ticket out to Australia. And that's, you will be sitting there cage side because you've already got to. baked-in story with both dudes. You theoretically are the front-runner, particularly given Robert Whitaker has now been booked. So you can kind of go try and make this happen for yourself. And maybe that's the plan. Because I got to tell you, if it's not the plan,

I think he needs to hit the gym because he might be the dude placed on speed dial for Hamzot when Hamzot pulls out of this thing. You know, he has a history of stepping in for the UFC, and they will make a call and be like, hey, Hamzot's out. if you want to fight for the belt, you need to book goddamn flight dobb-dobie and get your ass out here and fight Robert Whitaker for it. Because if not, we're going to have Bobby fight somebody. I don't know who the next man up would be looking at the middle-white rankings right now. But whoever says, yes, they're going to get this over you.

So he has not played this particularly well, frankly. I've got to say, haven't enjoyed a lot of what Sean Strickland has done from a career management standpoint. this past year, et cetera, and particularly because it's been so in opposition to how he tried to portray himself during his rise. So yeah, he's in a bit of a bind. It might not be that bad. It may be fine, but this is a very tenuous position he has as the presumptive number one contender right now. And he needs to do something to assert that, whatever that is, going to be before this does kind of roll away from him. I think he is the biggest Israel out of Sanya fan heading in next week because he does

have a win over Izzy and he has lost of DDP. There's a story there and you know he's going to probably want to run that one back. So even that's not enough, man. If Izzy wins, like I'm 50-50 that if Izzy wins, he's just done with middleweight. It's just like, hey, I don't have that much left in my career. I don't really give a shit about fighting Sean Strickland again. I want to go chase Alex Pereira down. And I am going to go try and do the Alex Pereira trilogy fight at light heavyweight.

And because that might be what the UFC is thinking. That might be why Magamanankalive is booked. Is, okay, we'll figure out what we can do here as the chips fly. And then what's Strickland doing, fighting for the vacant slash interim belt? I don't know, man. I'm not sure Izzy winning helps him a ton. Last thing on this, I want to go back to the main event and I'll go to you back. because we have the rising star, the new champion,

full of piss and vinegar, Ilya, and then we have the BMF champion, the former featherweight champion, everybody's darling in 2024, Max Holloway, who has looked better than ever since getting essentially perfect games by Alexander Volcanowski a couple of years ago. He's come out and just violently caoing people.

What's at stake for these guys besides the title? And I guess the question I really want to ask you, each path here, depending on who wins, is super interesting. Toporia's title run would be interesting. If Holloway wins the belt back, that's super interesting too. What's the more interesting path for you in this fight?

A Holloway win or a Toporia win? Well, for me, a Toporia win seems like the more likely outcome. And it seems like the one that just based on how we know combat sports often go is the one you kind of expect, right? Where we sort of close one chapter as we're opening the next one. And right now, from everything we've seen, Ilya does seem like he is the next chapter.

By the way, if Max Holloway with this sort of, I hate to call it a late career boost because he's 32, right? Like, he's not, in most career fields, that is not late career, but he's just, he's lived a lot of lives in this sport already at 32.

If he were to come back now and reclaim the title and to do it against this guy, you know, undefeated guy who everybody is super excited about, then he's one of the, the all-time greats. He probably is one of the all-time greats anyway, but if he does that, that is a climb up on the cage, freeze frame moment, roll the credits on the Max Holloway biopic because that's just an incredible feat. And especially when you, if he manages to do that in the same year where he knocked Justin Gaichi out cold in the final minute and one of the

greatest endings to a fight I've ever seen in my life, you know, that's the fighter of the year kind of wrapped up right there. That's an incredible feat to be able to pull off at this point in his career because he's been through so many of these battles. He's just spent so many rounds in the cage at this point. You keep waiting for him to show up and look like he's feeling that toll. And even for this Justin Gatesy one, I interviewed him before this fight and he just seemed a little like tired and run down.

And I was just like, man, is Max Holloway okay? Is he sort of at the end of his rope here? And then he goes out there and does that. And so while I think Tuporia probably wins, damn, I've been wrong about Max Holloway enough in recent memory that I probably should just shut up about it. It would be the way more incredible storyline for me if he wins just because of the cumulative meaning of it. Whereas for Ilya, it's like, yeah, that probably is what is supposed to happen, is him beating Max Holloway. What say you, Jed? What's the more interesting world?

Max Holloway being champion on October 27th or Ilyat, Poria being champion on October 27th. It's a good question because they are both interesting, right? Like either outcome here is pretty damn fun. I'll go with Max because it raises real questions about like how we reference and think about all time greatness in a way we haven't really had to reckon with all that much. Because if he reclaims the belt, like undisputed gets it back. where is he in like the list of greatest fighters of all time he's like he's in my mind

undeniably behind aldo and vulcanowski at this measure but if he gets it back and puts another run together like how it just gets really weird because he's doing something fighters don't have peaks and valleys in their career they have one mountain they go up a hill and they go down a hill and maybe on the downside they can have little moments of good but it's not, I'm back to the top of the mountain and then down. Unless you're at heavyweight, because heavy weight is dog shit. And you can win the belt multiple times in that trash ass weight class because it's full of garbage. But like, if feather weight, a historically good weight class, you don't get to do that. It is, you are on the rise for as long as you can hold it, and then

you start the slow decline. And so what he is doing, if he finishes this out, is so beyond the pale of what we are used to that it really is it's fascinating in a whole different way that's not to say ilia winning isn't fascinating because at that point that dude is 27 he's being the two best feather weights of this previous generation there aren't like like there are obviously dudes for him to fight and coming up but nobody jumps off the page at me if he beats max is like this dude's going to be a real problem for elia to puria as far as his contemporaries there still aren't that many rising up right now because he is so young. And so you start to think, okay, what can this guy do? This guy is an enormous star already. Can he become like a truly global, pan-global star of, you know,

no one's ever going to get to Connor, but he can get in that neighborhood, right, that zip code. So they're fascinating in very different ways, but the historical thing of what Max will do should he accomplish this is so different than anything else we've had to reckon with. I'll give that the edge. Yeah. So win-win for the UFC, that is for sure. But is it a win-win-win? There is a pay-per-view happening three weeks before that,

and that's what we're going to talk about in round number three. But the point for round two goes to Jed Bishu and his love for the heavyweight division, one-to-one. Scraged. Scarbage weight class. Oh, man. All right. Well, we got UFC 308 figured out with Holloway versus Toporia happening.

with Islam Makachep being injured, which is sort of thrown a monkey wrench into all of the UFC's plans because that leaves a bit of a hole earlier in the month because three weeks before UFC 308 is going to happen, UFC is slated to head back to beautiful, scenic, high elevated Salt Lake City for UFC 307. And by all accounts,

Teporia Holloway was going to headline that card. Now, UFC is in an interesting spot because we expect the Raquel Pennington versus Julian an Appena, Bannamweight title fight to happen on that card. And with all due respect to both ladies, it's a big ask from the UFC faithful to shell out $80 for that card in the main event, especially in Salt Lake City, who has a sort of a lucrative deal with the UFC.

They spend money to bring events there. So the UFC likes to put forth a little bit of an effort to give them a better card. So one would assume they expect a little bit of star power. So, Ben, I'll begin with you. What are they going to do? What should headline UFC 307 in Salt Lake City now? Yeah, I mean, when you look at just like who might be actually available realistically, there is not a ton out there.

And I know you might be just thinking, hey, Salt Lake City is just happy to be at the party here. They keep paying the site fees, just happy to have the UFC in town. Maybe you don't have to really load up for them like you're trying to please the Saudis or something. But I do think what I've learned about the UFC is if you can't, what I've learned about the UFC is if you can't do something good, do something interesting. And sometimes that can mean something weird. Like, you remember when John Jones fell out of UFC 200 and they're like, what are we going to do was this now?

Like, well, you know, it would be kind of weird is what if Daniel Cormay just fought Anderson Silva, just for the hell of it, really, just to see what would happen. Like, we're matching up characters in a video game. And so that's what they, that's what they'll often lean on and stuff like this. And I'm just saying, I'm just, just hear me out. Max Hollow, we're going to go with their fight for the featherweight title. we know we can't really put the BMF BMF belt up for grabs there, right? Because then it just, it merges with the featherweight title and effectively ceases to exist at that point because it'll just follow around.

You know, it'll be like what happened to the lineal Bellator fight master where once it merges with a belt, that's where it goes. And everybody, it's no fun anymore. So we'll just drop any pretense that the BMF belt is ever a thing that gets defended. It never gets defended. It just gets awarded like a trophy in Little League or something. We all just all agree it's fun and it doesn't work the way a normal belt does. You take that and you put on one of these fights where, hey, we're clearly just doing it just because we can't. Maybe we get Dustin Porreier, be like, hey, what are you up to?

Find just some kind of fun fight. Maybe guys in different weight classes meet at a catch weight. Do a BMF belt. This is what the BMF belt exists for. When we need to do something, we can't, all the meaningful options aren't available. So let's just do something fun and weird. Like that's what it should be there for. And that's what you could use it for here, especially when you have another title fight that you put on a card to basically be like, see, there are real titles here.

And you put a lot of belts on the poster. It works for everybody. Jed, what's the main event? When Dana goes on social media and announces the main event for this card, is he saying Raquel Pennington versus Julianna Pena? or is he saying that's the co-main event to fill in the blank? I would, it might be the main event. I love that Ben is bringing this optimism. And God, I wish that were the case.

But the UFC is fun in specific instances. They're not fun all the time. I point to this weekend's card as proof that they're not fun all the time. That card is just a mishmash of garbage. Like they're fun at UFC 200 when it's supposed to be John Jenner. Jones or you've see 300 win. Oh shit, it's 300 and we've forgotten to make good fights for this. We got to put something together.

This is just 307, which was never promised anything other than that it would happen because you're paying us money. So given that, like the fun outcome would be like Alex Pereira. If you're reaching for the sky, it would be Alex Pereira defends his belt against Culeo Roundtree Jr. or just like random body because it would be fun and cool. That is deeply unlikely to be the case. If I am, this morning I saw that, you know, Armand Sarukian throws out that he'd be willing to fight for an interim belt if Islam's hurt.

It's unclear if Islam is hurt, though it seems like he's hurt, I'm not really sure. But if that's the case, like Porre v. Surukian, an inter-jim, Utah fight, like, for an interim belt, you could maybe sell me that they'd be interested. But I think the outcome we're going to get is your, main event is going to be Rocco Pinnington versus Giuliana Pena and they're just going to double stack it with

and I can't believe I'm about to say these words because I don't even believe it would be true but Wiley Zhang defending against Tatiana Suarez I don't really believe Tatyana Suarez will ever fight because why would you that you're an idiot if you think that but this feels like a situation where you just do okay pay-per-view will double stack with titles both the women's belts up for grabs in Utah, a state with a long history of supporting women's suffrage and things like that. And we just commit to that. And that's, it's not great. But sometimes your pay-per-views aren't going to be amazing when you're, you know, Utah's paying them money.

Abu Dhabi's paying them more. So 308 gets to be real good. And Utah just gets to be fine. So it'll be reasonable to put some other good fights in the card, but it will be like UFC 301 sort an afterthought of the paper views we've done this year. Jed, could the UFC go to their newest champion and say, hey, you're the guy that wants to just fight everybody and fight all the time? We need you. We need you, Blah, Muhammad. We need you to come in here and defend this belt, whether against Shafkat Rahmanov or if they do

the Kamar Usman fight, I'm going to lose my friggin mind. You just cannot give a guy who's lost three fights in a row of title shot. I'm sorry. You just can't do it. Could they go that route here? Is that possible? Because Blah wants fight in December, and if there's any chance,

Connor and Chandler happens in December, you know that ain't going to happen. So it kind of feels like if Belal's going to fight again, this might be the spot for him, but it seems, maybe it's a little too quick, I don't know. It's possible. I would not say it's likely.

If I'm Ballal, I'm trying to do that, assuming I'm healthy enough to do it because fighting at elevation should, like, and on short notice, frankly, should wildly benefit him versus every other.

Walter White, who, you know, is not in insane condition and sort of year-round doing this. If he can make that happen, I would say that it would actually be hugely beneficial to him. But it feels like we'd already know. There's still, I guess, a couple of weeks where they could announce it, and that wouldn't stun me. But we're up against the clock for a premium belt premium weight class champion to kind of get the call. But I could see it.

And then that would be better than Utah deserves, frankly. But I'd be okay with that. Did you see that happen, Ben? They just say, hey, Bilal, congratulations. You're the new Welterweight champion. Long winning streak. You finally got over the hump, but you're the champ. But now we need you to fight October 6th or 7th,

whenever this card's got to take place. That is a quick turnaround, especially because it's not like he went in there and came out unscathed against Leon Edwards. It was a great performance by Bilal Muhammad and everything. But it was five hard rounds and he got his face split open at the end. Plus, man, if they call you, if you're Belal Muhammad and they call you and say, hey, quick turn around against Shavkat Rockmanoff, that boy good. We want you to go put the belt up for grabs against him. You know what?

Do your photo shoots with the belt now. Just don't wait. Make sure you get all the photo ops you want of you sleeping in the hotel bed with the belt, all the stuff that everybody loves to do with the belt. Get it in now. like you're a make-a-wish foundation kid because shavkat is a tough tough, tough fight for anybody. But I think he's especially even a tough fight for Blah. You know, I guess it depends what kind of pressure the UFC could exert on Blah Muhammad, which I would under I would believe at this point might be considerable.

But also it depends kind of like just said on how much the UFC cares to put on a great pay-per-view here. because this does seem like it's sort of fallen in the cracks already. You got a big one coming up, you know, just a few weeks later. And it does seem like you probably, if you've, if the UFC has learned any lesson from events like the fight night you got coming up this weekend. And just the way the schedule has gone recently, it's that they can kind of give these people whatever. The baseline is not going to drop below like a certain level just because you have the UFC branding on it. You're going to get paid. You're going to get your ESPN plus money.

Salt Lake City is going to pay you just to bring the show to town. So how hard do you really even have to try? If you feel like, okay, we can throw this stuff up there. If Belal doesn't want to do it, there's no need to lean on the guy for it. You know, I think that those are the factors. How much do they want to pressure somebody and how much pressure could they apply? But man, if I'm Belul, I might want to take a little more time to enjoy being champion before I go fight. shopcott rocking off that boy good that's the thing like i don't ball don't think this way because he's a fighter

he's delusional all fighters are i think the only chance he has to beat shopcott is this like hey get him without a full camp of preparation and at altitude and just survive five minutes and and wear him down because otherwise you're just going to get killed man like you give that boy a full camp you're done it's curtains your title reigns over like that means that would be my condition is if if If I'm Ballol and they say, well, you take this fight in Salt Lake City, I say, yes, but my condition is pride style. Don't tell him until three weeks before the fight. I'll take it. We'll keep the secret.

Don't let him know because he's going to take it. You call up Shavkat three weeks before the event and be like, what's up? You want to fight for the title? Does it you shot, man? He's going to say yes. But like, give me a little lead time on it. That's it. That's all I ask.

Wow. What a great idea. Way to steal the round, Ben. Just play the music, Casey. Well played. Give it to him. He wins. We don't even need a drum roll.

He wins. That was a kid. That was the Leon Edwards kick to the face in round five. No doubter. Jet asleep, metaphorically speaking, that is. But October is going to be a very busy month. And MMA fans are going to have to shell out a whole bunch of money because we have two UFC pay-per-views, at least expected to happen.

But then we found out October. October 19th, the co-leaders of the combat sports world, the Professional Fighters League, is back with a superfight pay-per-view event, which will feature in the main event, the return of the former UFC heavyweight champion, Francis Inganu, to the world of mixed martial arts, his first fight since successfully defending the UFC heavyweight title

against Cyril Gan in January of 2022. It's been a hot minute since Francis has competed in the world of MMA. he will take on Henan Faraheda. We also found a Chris Cyborg versus Luris Pacheca happening on that card. We'll talk more about it in a second. But Jed, I'll begin with you. Your reaction. Francis is back, fighting Henan Ferreira.

We didn't know if this day would come after diving into the world of professional boxing and making bag over bag over bag, what's your reaction to Francis being announced for his next MMA fight? I'm glad we're here. I would like to see Francis and Ganu compete in mixed martial. large large i know that that is a hot take and i'm sorry for coming so spicely here but i would like to see the lineal heavyweight champion of this sport compete in this sport and not continue to do the boxing thing and thank god for anthony joshua because if he like just wins another decision

where in ghanu doesn't look like a good boxer but is still competing then francis is still just out there boxing he's i don't know who he's getting next maybe it's bocoli after He'll call his great performance the other weekend, but he's still doing the heavyweight boxing thing. And that's fun. Like, that's a fun little detour. I like the vacation. You know, everybody enjoys their mistress, but you want your wife. And our wife is Francis Ngano, the M.M.A.

fighter. And so I would like to see him do the M.A. fighting things, because especially, I don't know what he's going to look like, man. He hasn't fought in, what, three years by the time this happens. It will have been a functional lifetime since the last time he fought in a cage fight against a dude who's enormous and hits real hard and he's coming off a horrifying knockout loss. And like I in general, I guess that Francis is probably going to come in here and just be better than Hanan Fahara, who is not like a great fighter, but certainly is a dangerous one. But I got huge questions about like I am genuinely interested in the matchup, which is not

something that a year ago I would have said, frankly, about Francis Ngano fighting in the PFL. my whole thing when he signed to the PFL is like cool just have him kill people I'll watch that dude uppercut people out of the cage that'll be fun as hell now it's like oh what does he look like coming in under these circumstances a terrible tragedy in his personal life the horrific knockout loss like one of the most brutal knockouts you will ever see in sports happened and the last time he had like a deflating loss he had the Derek Lewis fight and he fought like ass so like maybe he comes out and does that and if you've I like ass against an amphihara, you're going to sleep again. So like, I am now genuinely interested in this. And I assume we'll talk about the co-main event. But man, I'm pretty pumped about the co-main too. Like, this is PFL putting their best foot forward after a year of doing something. I'm not sure what they've been doing this year. I would not call it their best foot. And if it is, good God, get better feet. But this is a good way to end the year for them outside of their championships, which are, you know, whatever.

And what's your reaction? Did you think this is coming now that we see it? Are you as intrigued as Jed is? I'm super intrigued in the fight and the matchup. And I agree that I want to see Francis and Ghanu back in M.M.A. Let's find out what he still has in M.A. You know, he's not a young man by any means. That knockout to Anthony Joshua was super bad.

It really cooled our, what if he's just a prodigy at boxing speculation coming out of that Tyson Fury fight? We found out maybe not. Maybe you can crash him back down to Earth after the fantasy of maybe beaten Tyson Fury. But now, hey, come on home. Come on home, big guy. We haven't forgotten you. We still think, well, are you?

Come on. We saved a place at the dinner table for you. And he comes back. And you know what I like? I like PFL's decision to not overcomplicate this one. You're going to match big Franian guns up against like a six foot, eight inch scary knockout artist, dude. you bill it as the Battle of the Giants. That's what you do.

You just tell people, hey, look at the size of these dudes. They're going to fight each other in a cage. Don't you want to see that? And the answer is, yeah. Yeah, we do want to see it. Francis and Gano still has that allure of the heavyweight knockout whisperer. So, yeah, people are going to want to see it. And it is just dangerous enough, Francis and Gano against an even bigger dude, that people

are going to get interested in it. I do wonder a little bit about the timing of it for a couple of things. reasons, though, because it's like, okay, you're going to sort of sandwich yourself in here right between a couple of UFC events. Right before a really big one that people definitely aren't going to miss. You're going to do this all, you know, sort of during the fever pitch of college football and NFL and a lot of sports stuff going on. And if you're PFL trying to sell people some pay-per-views, you're already facing a little bit

of uphill climb. And if I'm PFL, I'm going, please, God, don't let them come up with anything. good for UFC 307 that people feel like they got to watch. Let them save some of that money in their pockets to turn around and give to us. Because, man, it's already tough. It's tough for anybody in the MMA space trying to sell pay-per-views, not named the UFC. Let's touch on the co-main event, Ben. We got the return of Chris Cyborg, her first fight in over a year, only her second fight

since April 2022. And she's fighting Larissa Pacheco, ever since the Amanda Nunes fight. here's the resume of opponents for Chris Cyborg in MMA. Fletia Spencer, Julia Budd, Arlene Blanco, Leslie Smith, Shadade Kavanaugh, Arlene Blanco again, Katzen Gano, who is on the back nine and that might be putting it lately. Now she fights Larissa Checo. She's on 18, dude. Come on.

She's in the clubhouse having bevvvvies. Ain't on the back nine? Well, now Cyborg fighting Larissa Pacheco, which many believe is the toughest fight she's had. And I think it's pretty clear since the Amanda Nunes fight. So she's back and she's got some competition here. What do you think of this fight? You know, as a gentleman of a certain age who is around this sport and the O-Oats, I'm not going to not get excited about a Chris Cyborg fight ever.

You know, five years from now, I'll still be getting excited about Chris Cyborg fights. I wonder how many other people there are like me out there, though, who's still that the promise of a Chris Cyborg fight the way they used to be. I remember you'd go and you'd watch her fight, especially if you were watching it in person when she fought some of those invictive fights, where it was like she would punch somebody once and you could see the expression on their face change. from I came in here with a lot of confidence based on the eight-week camp I put in and I am ready to step up and claim my destiny to one straight right hand from Chris Cyborg later. Oh, this was a bad idea. And it's like they're looking around for the softest place on the canvas to fall.

You can see it happen to people in real time. And you don't get a ton of that in women's MMA. And you don't get a ton of an MMA just in general. And so it's like when you see somebody who has that, they be. become kind of a can't miss attraction. I just don't know if there are enough people out there who still remember those Chris Cyborg days to still have that level of energy and excitement about it. I do.

I always will. You know, I was walking around in Vegas at USC 300. You got the Chris Cyborg Army stickers plastered all over the place. It was just like, okay, nobody does more self-promotion than Chris Cyborg. I'll give you for that. When Chris Cyborg has something coming up, the way I know is because I get an email and the sender is Chris Cyborg. I understand she's not sitting at the laptop,

sending those emails out. But you get them. You guys must get them, and it works on me because I'll see it pop up in the email inbox. And it's like, you got an email from Chris Cyborg. And I'm like, oh, yeah. Is she just catching up?

Is she just like, and then you click it, and it's just like a bunch of like her YouTube clips of her training for whatever she's got coming up. And you're like, oh, okay. But like, you know what? Damn it, I appreciate the effort. I appreciate the effort.

So yeah, I'm excited. Are you at the same levels of enthusiasm, Jed? When you saw the Chris Cyborg email, were you just thrilled, jump it up and down, Larissa Pacheco. This is a good one. This is a good fight. No, Chris Cyborg emails me too much. We ain't friends.

Where, she blocked me on Twitter. I have never once interacted with her on Twitter, and I am blocked from that. But she still, I did nothing. I have never once tweeted at her and somehow, Connor did the same thing, though I've at least sub-tweeted Connor or shitload, so maybe I could buy.

that one. Like, I got nothing on this, but she'll still send me three emails a day, and I don't ever care. Because you talked about, oh, fighting Kat Zengano, who's retired functionally or whatever. This year, she's been boxing women who don't box, who have, like, one professional boxing bout and not even, like, killing them, just like winning decisions. And she's emailing me to see, like, oh, Chris Cyborgs booked her next boxing fight. I don't care. Like, who, you're not even have the decency to do this on like the garbage influencer boxing cards and let us like have an easy viewing experience. I have to go find this. I don't care about that. What I do care about is her fighting MMA. I'm not sure what this is going to look like. Chris Seiborg has pretty clearly

been on the decline for a while and just is competing in a weight class that functionally doesn't exist and against like people who are well past whatever their primes would be or weren't very good. And now she is fighting a woman who is very good and certainly in her prime. And the weight class still doesn't exist, but this fight is a good fight. And so I am fascinated to see how it plays out. I think Larissa Pacheco is about to beat that ass is what I think is going to happen. And then that will be an interesting sort of fallout because I don't know where Pacheco goes from there if that happens. And I don't know what Cyborg does either. There's not a ton of future pathways after this fight, but this was the fight we were supposed to get in February.

This was supposed to be the main event or the co-main event to the PFL versus Bellator thing that never happened. And we got on this show and other programs and said, what the hell is going on? And then Cyborg is like publicly feuding with the PFL. However, we finally got this resolved. I am glad we're here because this is the fight that should have happened a year ago. And then once it happens, we can kind of move on to whatever.

is next. I have no idea what that is, but I wanted this fight and now we're getting it. And so it's why I said at the top of this question, this is the best thing PFL's done in a long time. And so I'm pretty excited about kind of where the battle of the Giants goes for them. A couple last things on this because I don't know when we're going to talk about PFL again on the show. It's just not a lot of buzz there. It's not a lot to talk about, honestly. But this is obviously big news. And as you said, Jed, and I think Ben, you've tweeted about this as well.

This is a bit of a home run swing here from them. But they also approach this entire year with this attitude that, hey, we're already here. UFC's on their heels. We're inching closer to co-leader status when in reality, PFL and Bellator have less buzz than they probably have ever had as an organization, either one of them, which I didn't think was possible after they bought Bellator November and the buzz that created. But here we are. Jed, how important is it that this car delivers? Or maybe you're sitting looking at this from a Don Davis point of view because their attitude about things, maybe it doesn't have to deliver.

We're killing it. We're having a great year. We're good. It's a really good question. I don't think it has to deliver in the same way that every elite XE fight was functionally like a make or break. It is not we're over leveraged and one bad event is going to send us to check. Chapter 11, it needs to be good because at some point, like, we are going to take an interest in

this. We are going to talk about this. This will be a promoted event. That's not always the case. And so when you have cards we don't talk about or give a shit about, they can fall flat. They don't have to be that good because there are no stakes attached to them than no expectations. If you're putting maybe not all your like eggs, but a lot of your eggs in one basket, that basket needs to survive. That basket needs to not get lit on fire and get thrown in the river. And they're doing that here. At some point the rubber must meet the road for them. And it can't be about what the future is going to be.

We are going to be the co-leader. Okay, well, now the bets you have made, this is those chickens coming home to roost. You bet on Francis Ngano. He's finally fighting for you. You bet on acquiring Bellator to make fights like this. What does that yield you? And it needs to be something. It doesn't have to be the greatest event of all time or break records,

but it needs to be a success for them. And God willing, they need to have the right people win these matchups. Because I got to tell you, if Francis gets ethered out there, that's going to be a real bad night at the office for PFL. Hinau Fahara is not going to come out of this event as a new star. We will leave it being like, oh, that was the, that may not be the day PFL died, but that certainly was when we knew that,

they were no longer for this earth. So there are a lot of pressure on this event to deliver in a meaningful way. Ben, Ariel Hawati brings up crossroad fights all the time. Is this a crossroad fight? Is this not a crossroad fight? Is this a crossroad event for PFL? Does this need to be good?

Does this need to deliver? Well, first of all, I'll say, if the basket got lit on fire, but then thrown in the river, you might end up okay. You know, the river help you put the fire out, you pull it out, you dry it off. Now it's in the river. It's in the river.

It's down river. I didn't say in the gently flowing stream, I said the river. Look, stuff gets in the river and gets out of the river all the time. I live in a town with a river going right through the middle of it. Trust me. But you tell that to that poor Olympian who got E. coli because she was swimming in the same. Don't get in rivers, folks. That's my official advice to you all.

Well, maybe know a little thing true about the particular river you're getting in. I would argue that. We can't all live in Montana where the world's clean. No, we can't. We don't want the rest of the people coming here. That's one of the things that makes it so great. So make that clear to everybody, they cannot live in Montana. We like it the way it is.

The thing is, if you're PFL, are you telling yourself seriously that we are going to be a paper view producing, a regular pay-per-view producing company moving forward? And that is going to be a sizable and significant part of our business model. because it's really hard for me to imagine that. Right now, the appeal that you have is that we already have the service you're on. That's it. That's the big thing you've got going for you right now, is that if you want to be an MMA fan, you basically have to have an ESPN plus subscription.

Okay, PFL's already on there. So you've got the accessibility question pretty much solved. And that was a big problem for a whole lot of other people. you know, when Bellator sort of moved behind the Showtime pay or paywall, that meant like, okay, a lot of people are just not even going to know you're having these events. Right now, of your BFL, we're already in the neighborhood. And so it's a little easier for you to get some of the people to stop in your store. It's kind of like, especially when you're in California, you ever go to an in and out, it's absolutely packed. There's a del taco next door.

And you're like, well, shit, I'm hungry. I don't want to. In and out's better, clearly. But I don't want to wait in line for 30 minutes. I'll go over there. It's a serviceable cheeseburger at Del Taco. So that's kind of what you have going for you as PFL. But are you going to put on really like profitable pay-per-views a few times a year?

Are you going to crack 100,000 buys on pay-per-view pretty regularly? I can't see it. The best thing it could happen for you is that you do have an incredible event here to where the people who didn't buy it here from the people who did, man, you really missed out. But the way this stuff gets shared, it means the only way to really siphon off a pay-per-view audience is if you have a big offering that we want to see in its totality. If it's just like one Francis Nganu knockout, I'm going to see that whether I buy the pay-per-view or not. We all know that. There's no way for you to stop that.

So it's like you've got to find a way to offer something more. I'm not convinced PFL can do it. I think you're better off sort of chugging along and eating away where you can. but if you're going to take this big swing, yeah, it has to pay off. You need it to be an incredible night of fights. It can't, if it's a Francis and Gano Derek Lewis kind of situation, that's a disaster for BFL. And their championship card that they're going to do a month later needs to not be a pay-per-view. They can't go back to the well two months in a row.

You just can't do it. You can't do it. Those events are the biggest slog in all of the sport. No, it isn't. October, November. It is right out. Is it not December? Oh, Jesus. Yeah, don't do that.

I mean, don't do it anyway. Yeah, definitely don't do it if it's a month later. I think it was similar. Definitely can't do it. Ben, over under 100K buys on this card. Under. Well under. I feel very comfortable in that prediction.

Yeah. That was a deeply bad question. You got to set that number way lower. Yeah, set that way low. We're not getting six figures. 50? 50? That's a better number. Is it still under?

I think it's still under 50. I mean, I'll be one of them. I'll tell you that. I'll be one of them. But, man, especially you're doing it in between two UFC pay-per-views. You've got so much other stuff sucking up the oxygen in the room sports-wise. People don't have unlimited pay-per-view budgets, man, especially when the UFC is charging 80 bucks a pop for some of these.

You're going to turn around and be like, hey, do you have a spare, you know, the price of a concert ticket to add to your, your budget just to see Francis Nganoe back in MMA. A lot of people are going to say, no, I will wait for the highlight. And that's, that's, you're going to be your big problem there. I don't, I don't see how you really do much on pay-per-view here as BFL. I think the timing's actually pretty decent just because 307 is going to be, going to be do-do. We've talked about it.

It's going to be poop soup. And 308, like no one looks ahead. Like the people who are buying pay-per-views, they're scrolling through. They're not like, what's coming next week on? pay-per-view to decide if I need to drop 50 on this. We're prisoners of the moment. So, and then they'll be counter-programmed by what I can only assume is, wait, oh, wait, are they counter-programmed by this is, will that be UFC Apex 100?

Because this is 95, 96, 97, 90. It'll be Apex 99 unless they slot another one in there somewhere. So it's not even Apex 100. So really, they're doing fine because I'm sure it'll be Morsin Taibura versus Sergei-Sbee Vak 3 or some other god-awful piece of trash that the UFC is running with that day. So 50K for like Francis and Gano, who did kind of reach some sort of cultural borders with the Tyson Fury fight and sort of where that's going. I think they can clear 50, but they're not getting, they're not getting three digits or

six digits. Damn. Well, we'll see. Let's move on. The point for round four goes to Mr. Poop Soup himself, Jed Bishu. Nicely done, two to two, hell of a round. And that means we go to the knockout round.

Shocking development here on the program. Each of these wonderful contestants will have one minute and one minute only. To answer this next question. And then you, the peeps, the live viewing audience, you'll decide who wins, whether it's Jedmishu or Ben Fulks, but what a freaking battle this is Ben. And Jed, we go to you, my friend.

You are the most recent winner on this program. We go in first. Or are we passing on over to Ben Folk's Price is Right style? It would be rude to have Ben go first his first time here. He doesn't even know what's happening right now. Let's at least let him get a feel for what's about to come. And I will take the first option. Okay.

Well, I'm glad you did because right before we went live, you asked me a question. You said, Mike, looked over the show notes. Are we really not talking about UFC Vegas 95? Are we not talking about this monumental card, this 10-fight slate stacked from first fight to last, including in highly anticipated rematch that the world has been clamoring for in your favorite division, Marcy and Verborra versus Sergei Spivak, two rematches, Jed. So I guess, so what I'm going to have you do is do something that the UFC is certainly not going to do. In 60 seconds or less, sell us on why we should watch UFC Vegas 95.

this Saturday on ESPN Plus, wherever get your UFC programming. Go. So to be clear, there too, because the opening fight of the evening, Stephanie Luciano versus Toledo-Alan Carr, is a rematch from Contender Series last year. They fought to a draw. So you're opening the show with a rematch, you're closing the show with a rematch.

No one gives a shit about any of them because you shouldn't. Because, Mike, I'm going to break from the prompt because you shouldn't watch this. The UFC doesn't care if you do. This is UFC-Vagest-Vagest-C-Vagest, tractual obligation. On No Bet's Bar this week, I said this is the fight card equivalent of when you get home late from work and you haven't gone to the grocery store in a while and you've got to make dinner out of nothing. So you eat like a grilled cheese sandwich and some leftover salad.

Or you're just putting two disparate things together to get a caloric number of value and be like, that's it. A bowl of cereal or PBJ is all I need for dinner. I'm good. They don't give a shit. Why should you give a shit? The only thing you should give a shit is Damon Jackson. My birthday brother, happy birthday, Damon Jackson. Same day, it's today. He can go out and get a W. Wait, today's your birthday, Jed?

Sure is, kid. Oh, my God. What a freaking brilliant move. Wow. It's our third week in the row with someone being on someone's birthday. Yes. Who was last week? Last week was, I didn't know until.

afterwards New York Rick's birthday when he hopped on the show with me. So three in a row, you've got to find somebody who is born next Thursday, Mike. Shit, BC, New York Rick and Jed. What a brilliant move, Jed, revealing that right when the vote's about to take place. Just smart, smart. I'm going to be there. Absolutely garbage. Ben, I don't know how you feel about this, but look, Jed did a great job selling us on

UFC Vegas 95. They might have just sold a subscription or two based on what Jed just had to say. Do better. UFC Vegas 95. Why should we stay home on Saturday night and watch? Go. Okay. A couple weeks ago here in Missoula where I live, guy was walking down the street,

looking on his phone, not paying attention to where he's going, steps in a giant pothole and breaks his ankle. That can't happen to you if you're at home watching the UFC on ESPN Plus. If you were out in the world, if you were living your life, non-zero chance that it happens to you. You know, nearly 40 people die every day in drunk driving accidents. Can't happen to you if you're at home on the couch. You know, what if you go out there, you're living your life, you're having a good time,

a meteor lands on your head while you're out there. Probably not going to happen if you're at home on the couch watching this Marcin Tibera, Sergei Spivak Barnburner, which I totally knew that was a rematch. I definitely remember the first time these guys fought. All of us do, I think we all know where we were on that day. I'm just saying, stay home, be safe. And if you're home, might as well watch the UFC. That was unbelievable.

That was unbelievable. Well, so it's my birthday. Ben's answer. It really speaks to the heart of the UFC of like, it's not going to be that long before they are trying to rule by fear of it's a big scary world out there. Your couch is very comfortable. I can see the commercial right before the broadcast.

UFC Vegas 95, at least a meteor won't fall on your head. Like, just beautiful salesmanship. Probably. It's spectacular. I mean, there's two selling points here. What the hell is that? Wow. You got the thumbs up bubble?

It's never happened to be before. Only 10 fights, which I like. And I believe a 5 p.m. Eastern Main card. Is that what's happening as well? Sure is. That's pretty damn good. Those are two pretty decent selling points right there. But well done.

Cast your votes. Go in the chat. Cast your votes. And we'll see who wins. Is it Jed Mishu celebrating birthday number what? Jed? How old are you? Oh, we don't need to get into numbers.

That's not necessary. Oh, cut the shit, dude. I'm way older than you. What's a number? Yeah, but I want to keep my youthful exuberance. I get to say a lot of dumb shit because people think I'm a child. Fair. over under 37 under okay so here you go you're fine you know my favorite thing about this card guys

there are two top 15 women's bannamway matches and they put one of them on the prelims for just no reason just like yeah screw it uh chepin mariscall damon jackson's gonna be fun i'm trying to find something like real good here just gonna be fun uh squibious galen jaccon will be fun uh This is kind of squashy central. Danny Barley doesn't really know how to defend himself, but he's really violent. So like that might be fun. But like Carl-on-Haron's use of still a card.

Oh, heavyweight over, heavyweight over is back, Jed. I mean, a billion percent. Janada Denise is a glory kickbox. She's going to get double-legged and sat on for 15 full minutes. Ah, just, just with the talk is ordered. It's going to be, it's going to be scenes, a great time. But hey, we'll talk to you before and after right here in MMA fighting because there'll be tons of stories coming out of this card, one would assume.

But at least we'll be on the road to UFC 305. We see Casey with no sleeves on on the bottom right hand corner on the screen, which can only be one thing. We have a winner. Is that accurate? We do have a winner. Excuse me. We have a winner. What a wonderful match.

I'm so happy Ben's here. And happy birthday, Jed. But we have a winner. Happy birthday, AK. Happy birthday. You know what? I am vetoing the fan votes. Safety first, safety first.

Your winner, Ben, folks. Yes. Safety first. Safety first. It's rule number one, safety first, then teamwork. Incredible. Somebody twists and turns on this program. Ben, you don't get any money or a trophy or anything,

but you do get 30 seconds to, Say whatever the hell you want. Plug away. I know you got a lot of things going on. CME, et cetera. Let the folks know about it. Well, yeah, first of all, I'm very happy to see the will of the people overturned.

Democracy is overrated. The right choice was made here today. Also, you could find me on Twitter at Benfolks MMA. I also write for Yahoo Sports covering MMA in boxing. And you can find me writing about sports gambling at legal sports report.com. And, of course, the co-man event podcast, has just hours and hours of listening entertainment. And we don't even restrict ourselves to fights because how could you?

So we go all over the map. Come join us. Jed, how do you feel about which is transpired? And on your friggin' birthday of all days? It's really the most fitting response because BC loses on his birthday, Eric Windsor's birthday, and then there's controversy on mine. So we've covered the whole gamut. It's okay.

Just remember this, you know, January 6th is now the nation's second greatest tragedy. August 8th is actually just where the biggest injustice was levied. And otherwise it was lovely. It was lovely. I love that we didn't talk about this weekend's card. I'm a really big fan of us doing that because there's not a lot to talk about. So we got to have some fun instead. Yeah, there's, I mean, even that wasn't even in the top five of important conversations that we could have had today.

I just want to see if anybody can sell me on UFC Vegas 95 and boy, you guys did your best. Casey hit the music. Let's get the hell out of here. We'll be back next week because, boy, are we going to have things to talk about with the upcoming card because UFC 305 heading to Perth, Western Australia. Finally, we're going to get it for the middleweight title, Drick's Duplice versus Israel, Adisania, who's back after the longest layoff in well over a decade. Press the card.

I mean, there's some things happening. It's okay. Not the greatest pay-per-view line up at all in all-time. The main event is a dozy. We'll be back next week to preview that. For Ben, for Jed, Casey on the Ones and Tuesday, iconic voice special and takes you home. I am Mike Kack.

Back next week. Good night, everybody. Love you all. This has been Between the Links, an MMAT fighting production on the Vox Media Network.