MMA Fighting - Coffee Talk: Bellator 238 Edition

Episode Date: January 27, 2020

With Bellator 238 in the books, MMA Fighting's Esther Lin and E. Casey Leydon, along with Anthony Walker, break down Saturday's event at The Forum. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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and use promo code sports for 20% off. Pressing this shit, man. Just do it. And that's a good feeling, huh? Yeah, I feel refreshed all right. Yeah, man. So Esther, what are we drinking today? Uh, today were you drinking French-pressed Colombian coffee?

Why he's so shy? Oh. Are you ready? Are we ready to start talking and coughing? Yeah, no, we're ready. I'm just like a little bit, you know, out of sorts this morning. We have some bad news, so I'm just kind of like I'm just kind of like I'm just kind of like I'm, I want to be like upbeat like we normally are, but I just found out that Kobe Bryant died.

So I'm kind of like in a weird space. Yeah, so it's, yeah, I guess we got a, that we just, so right now we're at night and noon and we're in Englewood, California. And we just found out maybe like 20, maybe half an hour ago that Kobe Bryant died. I'm sure everyone watching this, they're going to know, they're going to actually know more by the time this comes out but right now we just the only news that's out

Kobe Bryant has died in a helicopter crash in Northern California No Calabasas Oh Calabas yeah That's Southern California Oh sorry It's just like above Malibu It's in LA County

Okay Yeah and yeah it looks like in They said four other people right now Also perish No survivors And yeah That's just Yeah so

Yeah some terrible news to start the day with, it's, you know, especially being in Los Angeles, and I know we're all three of us, well, I know you're not a transplant, you grew up here, right? Yeah, so I know we're transplanted, but it does feel,

it certainly feels bad for the city, you know, it's like being in Los Angeles, being in this area, and just knowing we're gonna walk the streets and just feel like that sadness, like I feel like that same sort of, that like kind of pitting my stomach feeling, when Nipsey Hustle was killed last year,

where, like, the whole city is in mourning. Yeah. Yeah, it's weird to, it's weird, because, I mean, I'm not from L.A. I came here about 12 years ago, and I'm a big Rockets fan, so actually Kobe was, like, an enemy, you know, in the sporting sense. Yeah, but when I heard it, I was like, oh, like, this is, like, that's, that's just, it just sucks. I mean, it just sucks, and it's a tragedy.

I think we have four daughters. Yeah. 41 years old. 41. I'm older than, I'm older than Kobe Bryant. You know, it's like, that's how, that's so, yeah, I mean, it's young. Yeah, it's kind of hard to put into words. Yeah, it's, you know.

Yeah, I actually don't know how to, like, it's kind of weird because I was like, oh, I want to talk about the fight cards and stuff like that, but at the same time, I'm like, uh, fighting seems less important when someone dies. Oh. Um, but it's still a world of sport. So it's like, I don't know. And the forum. Yeah.

That's how we're just in the forum. Yeah. Like Laker history. Yeah. The old home of the Lakers. So the Great Western Forum. Yeah. I mean, yeah, we said like, no, usually we like, no, it's like, oh, crazy fights, what a knockout.

And then right, like, literally right before about the pressure cord. Like, man. So, yeah, that's just, that just sucks. And just everyone hug your loved ones. Yeah. Yeah. This riot can end anytime. Life is a precious thing. Appreciate every second of it.

Indeed. So I guess, you know, the only thing we can do is just go ahead and do what we originally came to do. And that's talk about fights. And we did have some fun times last night in the forum. So Chris Seiberg is now, I think, the first person to have of either gender, which I think is very notable to mention to have a major title in four different promotions.

Yeah. That's huge. Were you literally there for every single one? Did you photograph, witnessed every single? So the strike was, the strike force was, and she beat Gina, right?

Yeah. So you shot that. Invicta, and she beat, who she beat Marluss? Marluse. She beat Marluse. You were there for that one.

and then Tongue Avenger at USC 214. I know you were there for that one. And then last night. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I've been there at every single one. Holy crap. That's big. So since you were actually the only person

at all four, I was at three of the four, which felt, I don't know, what felt the biggest? What felt most unique? What was your impression of all four? off or then. You know what's funny? Like even though the UFC is like the biggest organization

I don't feel the smallest I'm like the least significant. It felt like the least significant because her against Gina was the first time women were being main evented on Rockass television. Yeah, Rockass Television.

So it was like there was that and it was just massive and these both. Sorry, I'm gonna interrupt really quickly these are strewpwaffles from Marluss Cooninin actually. Oh wow.

She brought them from the Netherlands. So these are all-pro-fresh from the Netherlands. Real shit. So what do we usually do? We put them like over top of our coffee. Yeah. Oh, we usually do it. We do a tea normally, but.

No, coffee or tea. You can kind of put it there to keep your coffee warm. And it kind of warms up your cup. Nice. And then dip it in. Anyway, more loose. Also another pioneer. But yeah, so Strike Force felt huge because it was like the first time.

And then Invicta also felt it was smaller event, obviously, but it felt intimate because it was an all-woman's organization. So it had that kind of like... And that's also like Prime Invicta. And it was the first time someone had opened up the Featherweight division for her. It was like a rogue feel to the Invicta title win. It just because they were doing something that was counterculture to a counterculture. Yeah. So I think that's a notable thing as well.

Yeah, and I think when she fought Gina was at 140, right? No, no. No? Well, either way. Either way, I just feel like I remember in Invicta, one of the big things that Shannon really pushed was that she wanted to make sure that everyone got to fight at their proper weight class. So she opened a lot of weight classes. Like it's atom weight all the way through featherweight. Even there are lightweight fights.

And it's just like, I remember Cyborg forever was just having the hardest time finding competition. So it was kind of the first time people started finding, like, other featherweights to fight. Then the UFC, of course, was big because it was the UFC, but... She was fighting Tonga Avenger, who was a career band-and-weight. Career Bannonweight, and it came off the weird... It should have been Jermaine. Well, actually, it should have never been Jermaine. It should have been Cyborg originally for the inaugural...

Yeah. ...45 belt, but then we had that silly, Holly Jermain fight, which I'm not going to discuss. So I was like, and then, of course, Germain getting stripped. And then Cyborg fighting ridiculous fights at 140 for absolutely zero reason. Right. Just depleting. With like zero stakes. Zero stakes just to like, hey, let's see if we can, let's see if she dies during Wayans.

And so when she actually won the belt from Tanya, it was, it was just, all right, good. Okay, now we're just, can we finally get this ship's, you know, selling right? I'll say for, for me being, I was at 2.14. It was my first credentialed event. So it felt big for me. You know, I was, oh, I'm covering a UFC event. Oh, this is fantastic. And I'm seeing a legend in the sport compete 30 feet away from me.

So that was dope. But it felt like a foregone conclusion. Right. It was like, oh, yeah, Tanya Averinger probably should have been in the UFC before. Yeah. But she definitely shouldn't have been in a featherway fight. She definitely shouldn't have been in there against Cyborg in a featherway title fight. So it had this air of inevitability, but for the wrong reasons when Cyborg won't.

that belt. So like last night felt pretty damn cool. Yeah, last night felt big, right? It felt big. The crowd was cheering for her. Both ways. Actually both because Julie had a huge contingent of fans there. And this is the first time you really felt like she was truly fighting another featherweight. I feel like that. And a great featherweight. Yeah, not but not not not someone. Well, we got a 35 run there. Just don't don't cut weight. You know, just because we need a main event, you know. Go ahead, eat a pizza and just, and jump in there. It felt like an actual weight class fighting, you know, fighting one another.

It made a lot more sense. And they see him like, like Julia, I wouldn't say she tower over her necessarily in the faceoffs, but she, she was bigger. You know, she definitely was bigger. And that's something that we just don't see very often with Cyborg. Like, we normally see Cyborg just just hulking over. whoever she's in front of, and it was almost refreshing to see it the other way around. But then also, I think it was a reminder of how good she really is,

because you can previously link a lot of her wins to just being bigger and bullying. Like, you think about the Jan Finney fight where she's just throwing around like a ragdoll. You think of even like the Leslie Smith fight where it's just like, okay, as tough as Leslie is, like she just can't overcome that size. Yeah, Leslie fought at flyweight at one point. Yeah, it's just nuts that some of these fights were made. But then you see her against Julia Budd, who she can't just purely bully her. When she can't, bullying can't be the number one thing she does.

And then she's like, oh, she's going to outwork her with technique and outwork her with strategy and game plan. It was, I think it was a complete performance. And patience. Yes. Which is like the big, maybe the single biggest improvement throughout cyborg is. run. Yeah. Just patience.

Because for that Nunes fight, I mean, she just kind of ran right at her. You know, that got so aggressive so quickly, and you could tell that she had learned from that experience. And even when, so when actually a couple times when Julia hit her, like, got her,

she would like back out and be like, okay, let me restart this. No. Because Julia landed some really good punches and elbows. whenever they were clenched up, stuff like that. A couple good teakks she stuck in there as well. Like, Junio definitely, she got her looks in, but it was just amazing to see, like, you forget,

like, Sauerbord has bulldozed through so many people, and you just forget that she's really a technically very sound fighter. You know, for her to even get a takedown against Bud and really work some decent top control, it was just the exact opposite what a lot of people would expect from the stereotypical cyborg fight. Yeah, and what put Julia down was a body shot. Yes.

That was like the perfect, like, post-Jason Perillo performance for Cyborg, and I think that was, for me, coming into it, that was the way I kept framing it. It was like, this is, is it pre-Jason Perillo Cyborg or post-Jason Perillo Cyborg? Because we saw pre-Purlo Cyborg against Nunes, just rushing in chin first and just ready to bang. but we saw cyborg being very disciplined and patient and measured. And then you saw like the momentum just started shifting. And that first round was a little dicey. They both, you know, held their own very, very nice on that first round.

But then as each round progressed, it was just, cyber was just taking over just a little bit more, a little bit more, a little bit more. And then, and then right when she knew she was hurt, just. Then it turned to the classic sidewalk. Then it was Tekken. Oh, I actually lost counts. I couldn't keep enough. I couldn't count fast enough, but that finishing combo, I counted 34 strikes.

Not unanswered, but some were blocked, but she threw 34 punches and kicks in knees. In succession. In succession. With side, I think, bud, maybe going like, every once in a while trying to, like, let me punch my way out. Nope, not working. Yeah. I watched, I was like, that looks just so incredibly scary at that moment, you know. And it's just, but man, just like, just vintage cyborg and an improved cyborg at the same time.

It's like, yeah. I think it was a, I think it was, I think it was, I think it was just like an absolute home run by Bellator and Cyborg done. A perfect game for Cyborg too. Just I couldn't, I can't think of a better way. Because if she wanted to came out and just one punched her and like, I don't know, something. The fact that it got drawn out and really you can. And that the first round was very, even. Yeah.

Yeah. Actually, I was shooting from the blue corner like that they were next to me and I could hear cyborgs corner Yeah, okay. Cyborgs corner like just like in the first round and in the second round, constantly yelling, you have time, you have time, just reminding her she can slow down, she can pick her shots, just constantly just like, slow down, slow down, slow down, slow down. Each time she wanted to go forward, they're like, and they calmed her down immediately and she was really, really patient. a patient cyborg is very dangerous.

That's a very scary thing. It's a very scary thing. And I'm so happy for cyborg to get a win like this, the way it played out. Because let's take it back to last week, I think last week with Connor and Cowboy. Right. Where Connor went out there in Florida, Cowboys so fast that the narrative doesn't always revolve around how good Connor is. but what sort of caliber were we looking at. And we don't have that argument with this fight at all.

Like, Cyborg established dominance, but, like, sustained dominance and not just, like, some quick flash CO. And Julia Budd wasn't knocked out a couple weeks ago. Or knocked out, even knocked out. Right. Didn't ever know it was broke and smashed in just six months ago. She was, you know, eight years undefeated. And three title defenses under her belt.

Like, that's a little bit. Her last loss was Soronda Rousey. Yeah, her last loss is Ronda Rousey. Yeah. before that Nunes. Like, she's only lost to goats. Yes. This is prime Julia, but healthy, everything, ready to go.

And she got it, man. I was just, I was just like, what were your expectations coming into? What did you predict before the fight started? I kind of thought it would playouts sort of like this. Yeah. Yeah, I thought Cyborg would eventually get a K-O finish because Bud's best hope to win that fight would be one of two ways. either one, force the ground and just heavy wrestling and try to wear her out.

Well, she did try in that first round and to varying levels of success during that. Or the other alternative is use her long legs and play the reach and maybe, you know, and maybe try to pick her apart. But I just thought Sauerberg is too sophisticated of a striker, too explosive for that to work. And then, you know, if you want to bully her and try to out. wrestler and stuff like, well, she's pretty damn good grappler. So it's a lot easier said than done. So it seemed like her pass to victory would just expose her to too much danger.

And then eventually Cyborg would take over. I thought that she would definitely, maybe a little bit of the superstition in the play because she did lose to Amanda Nunes at the forum. Maybe her walking back in that building again, she'd say, maybe I need to keep my chin down and not just run straight at her. that she would play the intelligence on that end. So it played out kind of the way I thought, but Sainbrook was even more dominant than I expected because she went offensive with some of the grappling because there were times where

granted that wasn't her main game plan, but she still was able to bully the bigger person in the clinch. And that was the spot that we thought Bud would be the strongest. So yeah, I couldn't have been any more impressed by what she did. Yeah, because, you know, when we were kind of, comparing them and trying to see like cyborg i would give the edge in strike excuse me in striking you know just in straight grappling that kind of stuff but for sure in the clinch and the wrestling i would have thought that bud would have had the advantage but cyborg actually just showed that she was

just a little better in every area and as the fight went on the the gap got bigger yeah yeah you can feel like you can feel kind of um bud's hope almost just just slowly wearing away and you start seeing a little more desperation and things that she was doing. Yeah. The other reason why this is significant in terms of just she's fought and, you know, all these organizations and all this stuff. But that first fight, that first title fight was three-minute rounds. Okay, it's Gina?

Uh-huh. That was on three minutes? Uh-huh. That all that crazy is was his only three minutes. Yeah, I didn't even remember. Wow. Yeah. So that's why I remember Coker saying this week, he was like,

He was just, he thought that cyborg was the best because she's managed to kind of like, people thought that her aggression was really only good for that particular, like, short, fast round. But she's kind of, you know, progressed through the longer rounds. And at the back in the day that they, most commissions didn't let women fight more than three minutes around. Let's talk about that. Now, wait, now, before we talk about that, how's your coffee, sir? They're good. How's this, how do you like the stoop waffle?

Fresh from that waffle is dope. Did you put on top of your coffee? Did you get a little warm? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like the edges are kind of still kind of stiff and then the inside is a little Man, I came here to talk about people getting hit in the face from money and I'm in all here cultured man. We just get you get cultured and fat. I'm all sophisticated. Put my pinky up when I drink this coffee. Hello. Yeah, you know. Some Japanese sermics, right? Yes. Yeah. So, um, Yeah, before we talk about the rest of the Belisor card, which has some fantastic fights, is cyborx,

is cyborg the goat? Hmm. I'm on, I believe what Coker says is about longevity. She has been super consistent. Yeah, longevity. And that's why I can't give it to Man and Nunes. It's like, right, I think Man and Nunes right now, like this day is the best female fighter.

Maybe ever. I'm not 100% behind that, I think she's the best female fighter right now on the planet. But she's obviously been inconsistent in her career. Yeah. Cyborg has not. So that's why I still... And cyborx's been, you know, has been on top besides her loss last year since, what, 2008?

I mean, regardless of, you know, depth in the division, I don't care, man. That's just, like... She beat pretty much everybody they put in front of her. Like, that's all you can do. And beating is an understatement. It was like just like just demolishing. Yeah. It's funny because people are like, oh, she crushed a lot of cans and all this stuff.

So not that. It's that people didn't want to fight her. But she, the impressive part is she fought these lesser opponents and destroyed them the way that a top fighter would. Yeah. You know, because a lot of times you'll see like someone come up and like someone who's very dominant fight. Oh, a no name. and they might go the full five rounds or whatever and be like, oh, you weren't that good or whatever. It's like, but Cyborg has been consistent and it's always destroyed her opponents.

Yeah. Yeah, she's never, she's never falling to that trap where, like, I think one of the knocks on John Fitch or something was like you play to your competition sort of thing. Like she's never done that. She's approached everyone exactly the same and giving them the same amount of respect, which usually leaves them unconscious. Yeah. So, actually one of my favorite cybor. fights or moments is I forget the girl's name it wasn't one of our Darya Rajumova yeah and Cyborg at that point was just demolishing people in Invicta

and so she fought this girl and she was kind of grappling of her and everything and you can kind of tell Cyborg kind of wanted this fight to go a little longer she won rounds yeah so toward the end of the first round the girl I think Cyborg threw a kick it ripped off her toe nail her cyborg ripped off her own toenail throwing a kick she looks down and she's like what the hell And then she just beats the crap at this girl. And just like finishers like in 10 seconds. Just like, nope.

It just demolishes this poor lady. And I was like, at the time I was like, oh, it's going to go to sick around. Yeah, because Darya had been holding on to her for like four minutes. Yeah, just grabbing that leg, grabbing that leg, you know, which tell a lot of fighters in the past even made it at the distance. It's just by just holding that leg and just praying, you know, and it's like, we're going to do a hammer fist, but just these girls were tough enough. but when Cyborgs saw her nice toenail ripped off and, oh my God, this lady's done.

You have and work days over. Time to clock out, so, yeah. So, but, so what do you feel? I mean, do you believe cyborg as the goat? Or does that, does it matter? Is this just a stupid conversation?

It's a stupid conversation, but I enjoy having it. And welcome to coffee talk. A stupid conversation we enjoy having. That's MMA. That's all of MMA. It's so subjective. And I think if you were to make a case for a 1A and 1B,

this seems like a good idea. I think maybe like John Jones, Daniel Quirmier, those conversations, GSP Anderson Silver, there were certain people where they've done what they've done at the same time. And maybe they've gone head to head, maybe not. but there's so many other factors to play in it because for, and similar to the Jones Cormey thing, for Nunes,

she doesn't have any PED question marks around her. So if you want to factor that into goat status and head-to-head competition, she's beaten Sibor. Granted, I think if you rematch them might be a little different, but from the sample size that we saw of those two, you know, paired up against each other, Nunes is going to win. So it's hard to take away the head-to-head factor,

but the longevity is, the longevity is undeniable. Like 10 years or 12 years of, that's a massive amount of time in MMA. We can talk about, actually, we can talk about Cyborg for a while. Yeah, are we ever, one quickly, are we ever going to get to see a rematch between her and in this? Nope. Nope. Unless, of course, unless Nunes decides to retire. Yeah. And then I guess her contract expires or something.

like that and Scott Coker picks up the phone and yeah because Nudes came up under strike force as well so she's got a relationship with Coker so if if she answers that phone call I can see it but I don't see I don't think we're going to see it in their primes no no it's going to be it's going to be like a Chuck Tito three feel to it if it does happen yeah that'd be kind of weird I'd watch the documentary yeah yeah 49 year old cyborg coming out with it it's just no but um actually I was Why is the UFC have a 45 division, a women's 45 division? Like, just why? Is it just, it seems that just at a spite now?

Yeah, it just, it doesn't really make any sense. Like, I think it's this insistence on being number one with everything. So we got to have, but you're not doing anything with it. Yeah, you're not even trying. Just let all those women outside of Nunes, you know, just release them, and let Bellator have them. Because then that, I would love to see Felicia Spencer fight more. I would love to see Megan Anderson fight more.

If a fight that matter and it makes sense, you know, and seem like the fight's going to happen because... Just fill out the division a little more. It should just go to one org just because there's not quite enough. And even on the UFC rankings page, every single category has rankings except the other way. Yeah, and it's just a picture of Nunes. Yeah.

It's like this, it's silly. Like, I would love to see Spencer versus Bud. Sign me up for that. Yeah. Like, I'm all for that. The fight I really want to see is Spencer versus. She has to win her fight, but I want to see Spencer Nunes. I'm not mad at that at that at all.

I think that is a very tough fight for Manda Nunes. Because if a man in Nunez is shown any weakness throughout her whole career, is by strong grapplers putting in her back. And because that's coming into the Nune and Cyborg, that's why I thought the fight was going to go. I thought the cyborg was going to actually grapple. Bite smart. Be stronger.

Take her down and put her on her back. And we'll see where it goes from there. But obviously, they didn't go that way. But I personally don't. think the UFC will ever have Nunes fight at 45 again because right now Dana can just say forever well we knocked her out you know we know she got knocked out by this chick and she's a 35er you know so I think I don't and they you know you see you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know you know and I think they kind of have this right

now even though it might not really mean anything competitively but just from a a troll point of view you know yeah and I think that it's it makes more sense for them to to leave it at that you're right then they get to have the upper hand they get to have the end the period on that story yeah so the co-main event yes darian collwell versus adam bork for the second round of bellatorre's featherweight grand prix coming into it what did you think was going to happen coming into it i thought we were going to see another flying knee from from borgs I'm call well typically does the same sort of thing he used he doesn't vary his setups very much and he's you know exactly what you're going to get with him the problem with knowing exactly what you're

going to get from him is that the one who is made a pattern out of timing those takedowns to knee your head off into the rafters you don't really it's dangerous day yeah very very dangerous day so I thought that that's what was going to happen or at the very least like boris will be able to threaten it enough to where colwell would have to alter his game plan on the fly and boris kind of just take it over from there but coltwell did what he normally doesn't do and that's fight aggressively and that's you know be more of a striker keep coming forward and then mixing the takedown and got the quick submission too like yeah callwell like callwell like callwell put it on performances like that

reaffirms my initial thoughts when those brackets were laid out that he is the dark horse in this tournament. Yeah. Calvall at 45 has been just not a dominant. No, no, progressively better. You think he was. He wasn't as dominant, I guess, in his last fight in his first tournament bout, but he just needed to win at that point.

I think he was still adjusting to changing camps as well. So that's what I think And for this one, actually, you know you were saying about Someone's making a career out of just like Studying tape and timing you out Like that actually makes it really hard And in the sense that if Caldwell decided This is the fine I'm going to be slightly different

It's like, oh, but I watched all of his tape Or Adam Borge's like his coaches have been studying Caldwell And like Caldwell doesn't do anything that he normally does But the fact that he has that there's always that threat of the takedown is always going to be, it's going to put him in a higher position. Yeah, he, um,

I think, I think it was just, I think we kind of forgot how good Caldward is because we had the Horoguchi fights in our head. Yeah. And that was, that was, that was, that was, and it was at Bantamway and he was exhausted. Yeah. Yeah, but, but remember,

but, remember how dominant Caldwell was before? Yeah. Like, he was, he was actually, when he did the board, he was doing that to, like, the he goes to a lot, to the Dantenses. Yeah. of Bellatory.

He was super dominant. That's why when he fought Horaguchi, and I think, and I think Coker is under that same belief, like, that we do have the best band in weight. I think that's why even Coker is still, he's still a big shell shock that Carwell lost twice to him. Yeah. And, yeah, but I thought,

I thought maybe Carwell's time was done as far as, like, the best of the best, obviously he's always going to be top level, but for me. But I was just, yeah, I thought it was going to be, Borges coming out party. I thought I felt that way coming in like oh this kid's gonna yeah especially after the

the Caldwell's last fight again is Henry Corrano's it just it was just so I mean it definitely wasn't aesthetically pleasing so let me just get that out the way but it just didn't have you knew exactly what was going to happen and it just kept happening again and it just

I didn't see anything new I didn't see any new wrinkle and he said after that fight he felt so much better at going 45, but you couldn't really tell from the performance. Yeah. You know, but I do think the camp switch had a lot to do with him seeming sort of rejuvenated last night. I know when I talked to him leading up to the Corrales fight, that was a major, a major thing for him was the camp switch.

And he threw a lot of shade at Alliance for whatever reasons. I'm not quite sure what happened with those relationships. But he threw a lot of shade at that and was saying how much he needed to be back with his old team. I think he's at Pinnacle now somewhere around here. Yeah, it's in the residence. Yeah. Yeah. So he was so adamant about that.

And now I think a lot of times when we see people switch camps, you kind of need to get one under your belt. I mean, we could talk about here and people about this too. Like you need to get one under your belt with that camp before things really start jelling. and I think that's what we saw last night was things jelling and now he feels truly back at home with his old team and maybe and like you said in the post fight like you feel freer.

You feel free, you try things, you do things differently, you get a little more aggressive you take some chances that you otherwise wouldn't have. I think he keeps that up, man. That AJ McKee fight, good Lord, have mercy. I'm excited about that fight. Oh man, AJ. You know what, if, if,

I'm pretty... That's a little battle for the... For Southern California supremacy right there. Yeah, man. I'm pretty sure. I was actually backstage watching that fight with a... We're working on interviews. I was right next to John Morgan, of M.M.A. Junkie, and right before the fight started,

we're kind of like, we both actually picked, we got who you got. We're like, oh, I think Borges is going to win. And we're like, eh, but if Caldow once, it's going to be a bad 20... Remember, it was a 25-minute fight, so... Yeah. I think that was the fear, like, oh, man, but if Goddala does won, it's going to be a bad. a bad 25 minutes we have to sit through. And

we were just like so shocked. And if he, if we caught up in a 25 minute fashion that we thought he was going to win, if he was going to win, like the McKee fight, we wouldn't be that excited, but we're like,

oh God, this could be, but now, like, it's amazing how one, what, 90 seconds of action just kind of changes

your entire view on a fighter. And it changes the, it changes the way the tournament looks, the Grand Prix, so. Yeah, because I think we were all kind of, I,

I want to say we mentioned this, to each other during fight week like and Borgs versus McKee two undefeated feet of like yes please and we kind of kind of just yeah I want to see that yeah like oh this is going to be crazy but now we didn't see that yeah um I'd say we

I'd say if Colwell went out and did what he did against Corrales we would be excited for that fight but not for the same reasons we'd be excited more to see how McKee handles it yeah and like okay is how solid is his take down offense if you get him down can you keep him down

What does he look like off of his back? It would have been all these different questions that centered solely around the key. Yeah. But now it's like we're excited for both. Like, absolutely. Like really excited. Yeah.

Yeah. Just fanboy for just a second here. Hey, it props to Coker and Bellator having a key right there, having that face off right there. It seems cheesy. Like, you know, WWE, but I don't know. It works. It works.

You're feeling it. I was like, ooh. It's like, they don't like in you other. You know, actually, I was wondering about his fight against Henry Corrales in the sense that, because Juan Orgeletta had a, you would say, like a boring showing against Henry Corrales. And I wonder if that's just how you beat him. I think that's only way you get, I think it's only way you beat up. Because otherwise you get sucked into a brawl and you get knocked out.

You get Aaron Picoed. Yeah, pretty much. Like, you can't just go in there and just swing at Corralis. And even if you try to strike with him in a more measured approach, it's going to be, you have to use footwork. You've got to be elusive. You got, like, Archiletta looked a lot like his teammate, T.J. Dillishol in there. Like, you have to fight that sort of fight because Corrales, if he, if his feet are planted and he's throwing a bomb at you, you're going to explode.

Yeah, if you want to trade with Corallis, you're going to go to sleep. Yeah, you just, that's not how you know it's smart. And he, and he's able to still unleash that sort of power and still keep coming at you when he's cracked. Like, when we remember back to the Pico had hurt him really bad. He hurt him really bad. Like it was, it was an inevitability that Pico was going to get the finish at that point, and then he wasn't. So you can't, you can't ever just rely on, oh, I'm going to knock out Henry Corrales. You better get them skate to him.

I was watching the fight, and I was saying, you know what? I think Carrales is probably the pound-for-pound best fighter when concussed. Give that man some head trauma before the fight. Oh, he will F you up. You know, it's like, he just has, and even Archelaus said that, you know, his pre-fight stuff, he's like, oh, the guy's a zombie. You know, it's like, that's when he wakes up when you hit him. So he just got to hit him and run.

Yeah, he's kind of got that old, like, that like Stefan Bonner sort of thing to it. Like, he's got to, he's got to see his own blood or something. And then, and then all of said, oh, yeah, let's do this. I think of, I think of Crowellis is like the Matt Brown of Bellator. Yeah. It was at least, like, the older Matt Brown, which is like, now you'd be interviewed crowd, let's like, he kind of just like, oh, he's the most matter of fat guy.

Yeah, you know, yeah, fight, yeah, train hard. Like, what's like, we knocked up, Pico? Oh, it was cool. Yeah. And then you'd say, like, okay, nice. Well, have good luck Saturday. I'm so glad that you've had that same experience with him because I thought, like, am I just really a bad interviewer?

I don't know what's going on, but. And then after you press stop, you know, he's like, hey, thanks for the interview. Yeah, yeah. I'm like, all right, man. I thought you were mad at me. Yeah, you, he just, you didn't, he just said, you can tell you, You're just a unique dude, but that's what the sports full of, unique, unique dudes. Yeah, it's funny because we brought up to him his post-fight interview after when he did Pico.

The best, the best underrated post-fight interview. Yeah. What was the line he said after? He says, what is it? It's like, I've lived a mediocre life up to this point, and I was ready to die in this bitch. Yeah, yeah. And I was like, what? And then when you ask him about it later, he was like, oh, I said that.

Yeah. And then when he like, he just glossed over like some story about somebody trying to stab him to death. Yeah. Yeah. He's like, yeah, like, tell him those guys trying to stab me. Next question. Right. Right.

Wait, what? Tell us about the stabbing. I have a follow up. Excuse me. Like, we didn't know you were Batman in your stand. I was like, tell us more. And then, like, you know, he talks about his teeth. He has like no, his teeth were like just, his top two teeth right here and bottom work, they're gone.

Because, um, when he fought pit bull. And pit bull, he just ate a giant knee. And he finished, I think he even finished the fight. You think he went five rounds of pit bull, but without like his front teeth, just like going this way. So, like, so like, it's actually interesting. You said it, if you know who say in interviews, but like, so I think a couple weeks out before every fight,

before he goes to the actual fight, he has to take him, their screw-ins, he has to go to implants, yeah. implants, yeah. implants and everything. So, dude, dude, I love her. I love him. I love him. That's all. even though he's one of those guys

Henry Klaus talk that's what this is Yeah the crowd was spoiled last night Because you know they were booing so quickly At the Archiletta Corrales fight But they were spoiled because the From the very first fight I think Well no what was right before that fight

Sergio Pettus Oh yeah Sergio Pettus Right before that With the crazy he knocked How many times did he knock Cushackian out He submitted a dead body Yeah.

Yeah. What, how did he get there? Like, put the clothes line. Well, Pettis got dropped. Remember,

Pettis got hit? He was like wobbly and the, um, Alfred. Shockin. Chalkin. Came in for the kill. And so Pettis like, ugh.

Fuck you. That, that, that close line. I was like, oh my God. And like, yeah, and we talked to Pettus backstage.

He's like, did that hurt? He was like, yep. It's like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I've gone down. But it's like, but it's like,

yeah, his base is. body went out, boom, caught him, and Alfred got a little too anxious, and who, paid a price. All right. Exciting times. Yeah, and then before Pettis was Pico? Was he right? No, dude, that's why me had so much accent. Raymond Daniels.

Oh, Randallels. Oh, God. There was so much action last night. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Jason King ate so many of those body shots. Spinning cakes. Just over and over.

And the thing, like, they were hurting him so bad, but most of those weren't even landing flush. Like he was able to get out of the way a lot of them, and they were just, like, grazing him to the side, and you could just see him once every time. Like, I think. That last time when he didn't want to get up, he was like, oh. Yeah, he really thought about that. He, he sat there and was just like, man, did they pay me enough?

You can tell, like, he was almost sitting on the ground waiting for the ref to go, all right, you're done. Yeah, yeah. He was like, come on, Ralph, I'm like, don't, don't make me like, help me out, man, help me out here. I don't know, that's my sense. Yeah. And the rep was like, no, you can.

gonna die. Yeah, it's like those moments where he really, I think he, Jason King was on his back thinking like, man, did I pick the right career? That looked like a come to Jesus moment. Just laying on your back and just seeing the, the god of spin kicks just annihilate you every time you blink your eyes. Hey, and then Jason King actually did get Raymond down at one point and they clenched up and trying to get him a leglock. Yeah, Raymond was reactive. Yeah. And Raymond was in. Yeah. Right. Carply. Proper. Yeah.

Yeah. He, apparently, Ram Daniels, I mean, from what he says, he's training with the right people.

He had Mark Munoo's in his corner. He's training with, so he's got, he's got, like, high-level wrestlers he's working with. He's doing a strength and conditioning with Sam Calavita.

Calabita. So he's actually training with, like, Archiletta and those guys now. So he's, I think, 37 now. So he says,

I'm in my prime, though. He's ready, so. He looked more ripped than normal. Yeah. Yeah. He,

because he, I mean, he's never been a guy who looks like he has a soft bite or thing. But I don't ever recall. But he also not super vast. Yeah. I don't remember seeing him with the veins down his arms and like the eight pack or whatever. But he had it like, I mean, the conditioning thing, look. It definitely looks like he should focus on that end a lot.

Granted, he was just spamming spin kicks. I know that's very tiring. But he was breathing really hard toward the end of that fight. Like, if you put him up against a higher level competition and he's gassing like that, and granted, he probably wouldn't attempt those sort of moves against different competition. But, yeah, they might want to, he might want to really focus on that part if he's intending on really climb the ladder. But I don't think he is. Well, he says he is.

I mean, I know people say anything. He says he is, but he's also starting pretty late in his career. So he might also just be here to have fun. Yeah, and he's in the right promotion to just have fun with it. You know, getting a main card placement on a card this big, and you're fighting a guy who, quite frankly, you know, no disrespect, was brought in to lose. You know, it doesn't say that the promotion is really trying to fast track him to a title shot or anything. And they shouldn't because he, when he started, when before this fight, he was only one in one.

Now he's two and one. And like a lot of people in the comments of our Instagram, page or like oh he fought a can i was he's a one-on-one fighter what do you who do you think he should fight who do you want next for raymond daniels i'm thinking i would like to see him an MVP yeah because that that's just sexy that's just crazy man you just want to see all it's just like a dance yeah it's like a scene from the matrix i think that's an awesome fight but i think actually i think pa daily paula i'm not mad at that uh but but i think that's inviting the uh the uh the return of Division 1, Paul Daly, who

tried to grind out MVP, which, of course, is mixed martial arts fight. That's what can happen. But I don't want to see that, man. I want to see... You just don't believe in Paul Daly more, has it happened? No, no, I believe in Paul Daly. No, but he didn't believe in Paul Daly

against a striker. No, I believe in seeing Raymond Daniels and MVP just Shaw brothers their way through an entire Bellator fight. I'm into that. That's all I want to see.

And honestly, I feel like it's kind of why people like Bellator. It exists. And this is why I like having different organizations is that there should, there's no more coffee. Oh, no. These delicious waffles are still available for you. But there should be different feels. Everyone shouldn't have the same kind of a promotional machine, you know. Of course that.

I like that there's differences and I like that there's this like, and every promotion also has this, like, there are fights you just want to see. And this is just a fight you just want to see. I'm just curious. I just want to know what it looks like. Oh, God. Now we're talking about just fights I want to see. Now the fight we're not going to see is Raymond Daniels versus Michael Pereira. Oh, wow.

U.S. W. Wow. Yeah. Shut me up. Kind of sweating. I'm kind of sweating. Guys, just,

okay, UFC, you're rich. You get, you won. Now, cross-promote, come on. Let's borrow this guy. You won, you won, again.

You got your PI, got your apex, yeah, you won. You guys are doing great. Congratulations, you know? But now, come on, this has up some fun here. I had a moment like that

where I had a flashback to a fight that I really wanted to see because Kung Lee was in the building. Yeah. And I just wanted to see Kung Lee versus Anderson Silva. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. It has just been one of those fights where it's just, just chopsocky fun. I'll take it. Yeah. Yeah. Here, here's a bag of money. Here's the bag of money. Here. Just do it. And we'll see what happens. Yeah. That would have been great. I actually, that is the one. I don't know if that's off the table. This is, honestly. That is honestly. Well, I mean. Still could have. Yeah. You never know. But it won't be in their primes anymore.

Whatever. I do, I do appreciate that about this because we know, we had been talking about Risen a couple weeks ago and how they were really proud that they had this card that didn't have any you know, um, freak show fights on it or whatever. I was like, but freak show fights were fun. And it's honestly what people like about MMA is that it has all these

weird, um, unknowns. Um, but also it's people like MMA because there's this. You can just be like, well, these two guys are just crazy strikers. Let's do it. It doesn't even matter that they're not ranked at the same or whatever. Just let's just have this fight happen. And so I think that like,

only Anderson Silva. Like, those are things that, like, these are dream fights because they capture our imagination. And I want more of that. I would love to see more of that. Aaron Pico. Good. I guess he's doing all right for himself these days.

Has there ever been a more kill or be killed fighter? Yeah, right? Right now. Yeah. I mean, you know what I mean? Like, like, I can't think of a fighter that's either you dead or I'm dead. I mean who

Maybe Chris Lee been or something like Yeah it's been a while Yeah it's like you gotta go really far back To think of someone Like I can't imagine either these guys I mean I can't imagine Pico Honestly fighting Going to the decision

Without him or the other guy Getting slept Yeah Yeah He Pico man was First of all Pico is very difficult For me to talk about Aaron Pico In general without just mentioning

How like professional and classy That dude is And he's despite the fact that he's only with 23. And he's been the toast of the town since he was like 18 or something. Like even young. Honestly, there's like a young teenager. Yeah,

because he was beating adults when he was like, he was a resting phenom. He was actually a gold, uh, amateur body going to, um, appreciation chand and stuff. Like,

so he's, he's been, he's been the toast of the town for a very, very long time. And he, he still handles himself with so much class and, and a lot of humility, despite just oozing with,

confidence. And it's an interesting balance that he has. And it would be understandable to worry about Aaron Pico. When you look at what 2019 was like for him, that was a rough year. You know, getting floored into K-O-of-the-year candidates. Fights that everyone thought he was going to, you know, run through somebody. And to a point, he was. And it wasn't.

Yeah. Yeah, because we, yeah, like we said about the Corrales fight, in Borax, he was definitely beating him with the rest of him. with the wrestling and then went in for that same takedown and flying need to death. So the Pico man

he came in with a lot of focus and so complimentary of his new team at Jackson Wink and like we were saying earlier where it takes, sometimes it takes that one fight when you're with that new team and then after that thing start jelling.

So people know for his last loss against Adam Borge he was technically with Jackson Wink. He had left, what do you call? Body shop, body shop, which is Antonio McKee and Agent McKee, obviously, who he trained with. But he was only, he's a very limited time for the Adam Borch fight. So this was, this fight was his first real camp. Yeah, for this time.

Full camp, and he had moved his horses out to Albuquerque, so he knew it was serious. Yeah. Boots his horses. His girlfriend and his horses. Yeah, and he, the way he described Albuquerque now, where he's saying it's home to him. now and you know, Whittier is definitely, you know, where his roots are and stuff, but he feels so at home at Albuquerque. And that's so important too because can you imagine being, being the toast of the town at that young age and you're fighting, you're fighting in your hometown,

you're training in your hometown. You're surrounded by all these people that just love and adore you and have since, since you were a child. Driving down a street named after your own grandparents. Exactly. Where like his. family has significant history in the Los Angeles area. So you got to sometimes remove yourself from that and start anew. And that seems to be what he's done. And he's talking about how, like, Brandon Gibson is particularly jailed with him. And John Jones called him before the fight to offer some words. So things like that where you aren't, and he was on the prelims as well. Yeah. It was just smart. I think I think a good decision. Yeah. Kind of dow back the spotlight a little bit.

And let him be a young man. Let him be a developing fighter. Yeah. I think the key is to, I'm so glad that they started doing this because it's like, yeah, okay, so he had a lot of hype, but he's still a guy that has less than 10 fights under his belt.

Can we not keep putting him against people who are undefeated, 11 and 0, whatever? Like, don't, let's. 10, what was he, 4? 4.4. I think he was born 3. I think he's 4 and he had less than 10 minutes of actual cage time.

Yeah. Yeah. Now you're finally going to start to see because everybody needs to improve in their field, right? Like him being a standout wrestler, it doesn't mean he's going to be an amazing, a Mayfighter. And he should have been incrementally brought up. I think you should have been, but I get they were just going for it.

Yeah. Also, because he was so highly paid and he was so touted. They were like, we're just going to throw you in there. And his pride maybe he was like, sure. Yeah. Because, yeah, he's an extremely confident guy and that confidence is well-founded. I mean, since he was like 12, he's been beating people in international competition in mixed rules disciplines. Like to be a highly touted prospect in wrestling and to be courted by the USA wrestling, you know, Olympic, whatever they're called, he's being courted by them while he's also one of the hottest prospects in boxing.

and being courted by that world, famously training with Freddie Roach at Wildcard. And then also actually competing in pancreation, which is essentially MMA, and he's winning competitions overseas. And that's not your average amateur. That's not your average prospect. That's a season competitor at that point.

So it makes sense that they pump the gas a little bit on him. But then, of course, you add the brighter lights a debut in Madison Square Garden. And, you know, a homecoming fight in Englewood, you know, with Fador on the main event. Like, there are a lot of things that you, that level of competition can't quite prepare you for. And with his mentality, you need someone to kind of hold you back a little bit. Yeah. You need someone to put the brakes on and be like, hey, like, I know you're capable of this.

Yeah. But let's ease your way into. to it and make sure you're totally ready. Yeah. And lastly, I thought that AJ Agassarm was impressive in his comeback with because he looked like trash in that first round and then. Yeah. Oh, he got a piece of like, that was such a crazy round.

I mean, that's an early fight of a round of the year candidate right there. Because I think right after I said something stupid on Twitter, I was like, can we score 10-8 rounds for both guys? Yeah. They both just murdered each other. Yeah. And surprisingly, because the nature of Adele's Itamima's success in that, you would think it would carry over more into the later rounds.

You know, when you damn to knock a guy out with a variety of strikes, you figure like, okay, that concussive damage will last a little bit longer than getting caught in a choke toward the end of the round. But AJ, man, he did the damn thing. You know what? He proved to me. he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a jitzy, he's not a jitzy guy doing a MMA, he's a fighter. Yeah, yeah, that, and that was, that was impressive. That, that, yeah,

you can't, you can't, you can't fake that, you can't do that in the gym, it can only happen on fight night in front of the cameras in front of the crowd under the lights. Yeah, it would be really, you know, a fighter. And what a progression too from his, and he, he showed a lot of progress in his last fight. I can't remember who he was fighting in that last one, but his debut fight, which was also at the forum. Um, in fact, I think the second fight was at the form also. Yeah. He spends a lot of time there.

So his debut fight, I mean, he got outstruck by kind of amateur striking. Yeah. It was nothing too flashy. It was nothing too sophisticated. He just would, he just looked kind of shell-shock. He didn't know what to do. So he started taunting and doing everything but actually fighting. Yes.

And to see him run into a little bit of adversity in his last fight and respond so well, but then to, like, damn, to get decapitated from Ultimimia. And Ultimimia just, just so tricky

with a lot of his setups and spin kicks and he's going, spinning back fists, and he's doing a lot of, a lot of really intricate, weird things and got caught with a lot of it.

He's just, he just figured it out. Yeah. And it was resilient. And one hell of a submission to finish that fight. Oh, yeah, with the Aga's arm is choked.

Yeah, he calls it the Aga Yeah, the modified triangle, which I, like, I looked at it when it was happening. I was like, I don't know what, I don't know what that is. I couldn't tell if it was an arm bar, I couldn't tell if it was a triangle, I couldn't tell if it was a bicep slicer. It looked like everything. I was so annoyed because I didn't have like a good view.

I don't have a picture of it. So I was just like, I was looking at all I saw was just limbs. And I was like, I wish I could get a picture of this, but it won't make any sense. Yeah, he said he's landed that in Jiu-Jitsu tournament. You said Luton and Pilaras a couple times, I think. But I was so confused about it too because at that point, when it hit the point, when it hit the floor and they were in that position, you know,

I immediately turned to the big screen, of course, because just sitting, sitting in case I had, you can't do that happen to anything. It was just a jumble of body parts. But, but seeing that, I was like,

what, like, what, because the arm was trapped in. Exactly, because he was an arm bar originally, then he laces it through, and then it becomes a triangle somehow. Yeah,

I was like trying to say, so where exactly what's cutting off the artery and what, you know, then when the tap, which I guess caused some controversy, that he didn't tap, but he did tap? He did.

From what I saw. He tapped and it's fine. I think it's just, he was a black belt, so he was just, no, it sucks when you have to submit, when you have to tap, you know. Yeah. Yeah, I think he just, you know. Yeah, I mean, like, he used to train at a homil over all,

so he was feeling like. Yeah. Oh, there were other fights yesterday, too. There were Curtis Melinda. Oh, wait, that was Bellator, but yeah. Yeah. But that was a great. That was also great.

That was also great. A good debut. Yeah, but apparently, there's another mixed martial arts promoter who had some fights on the other side of the country. Yeah, UFC Raleigh happened. And I actually didn't get a chance to watch most of it. I saw the results. The only fight I went back and watched was Angela Hill's fight because I wanted to see

some killer elbows. And then I did. PG County stand up, Angela. He got the victory there. I was very happy to see that. I didn't get to watch all this. car too. I tried to and then I woke up. My head slumped in my chest and my son was crying whatever ungodly hour it was. So, thanks for joining us for coffee talk this week.

Thanks for having me at the Panda Dojo. Coffee Talk. Nothing in him. I got a little bit of my. But this has been Coffee Talk with Anthony Walker. Thank you so much for joining us. Where can we find Anthony Walker on the internet? You can find me on Twitter at Ant Walker MMA. It's also my Instagram. I very rarely post but follow me anyway just in case I do. And then my YouTube channel of the Walkout Network. So I post some stuff there.

And I got a weekly column now with Kristen King for my MMA news. So, yeah, the DMs are open. Come get this work. All right. And you can follow us on TikTok. We don't have a TikTok. Yes, we do. What's TikTok?

Yes, we do, old men.