MMA Fighting - DAMN! They Were Good | Celebrating The Violent Career Of ‘The Natural Born Killer,’ Carlos Condit

Episode Date: May 19, 2022

DAMN! They Were Good is a new biweekly podcast where we celebrate the careers of some of our favorite fighters in MMA history, and there is no better place to start than with Carlos Condit. Condit is one of the most exciting fighters in the history of MMA. One half of arguably the single greatest fight of all-time, Condit delivered countless unforgettable moments in a career that spanned multiple generations of the sport. Jed Meshew, Shaheen Al-Shatti, and Alexander K. Lee get together to remember those moments and celebrate the career of the only man violent enough to bear the moniker, "The Natural Born Killer." Follow Jed Meshew @JedKMeshew Follow Shaun Al-Shatti @ShaunAlShatti Follow Alexander K. Lee @AlexanderKLee Subscribe: http://goo.gl/dYpsgH Check out our full video catalog: http://goo.gl/u8VvLi Visit our playlists: http://goo.gl/eFhsvM Like MMAF on Facebook: http://goo.gl/uhdg7Z Follow on Twitter: http://goo.gl/nOATUI Read More: http://www.mmafighting.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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This Black Friday, you've got a whole month to catch all the exclusive offers waiting for you. See your local Nissan dealer or nissan.ca for details. Conditions apply. to the Vox Media Podcast Network. I am excited to be with you today. My name is Jed Meshu. I am a writer for MMAFighting.com. It's the greatest website in the world.

If you haven't checked it out, get on board, join the party. And the reason I am so excited today is because we are finally bringing to you a project I've been working on for a really long time. Damn! They were good. Now, if the name doesn't give it away, this podcast is about remembering and reliving the careers of some of the best, some of the most fun, the most violent,

the most exciting, our favorite fighters of all time. And so for our inaugural episode, I wanted to talk about possibly the most violent fighter, the greatest action fighter of all time, and also possibly my favorite fighter ever, Mr. Carlos Condit. So the way we're going to do this is we're going to have some categories to break things down and sort of remember the career of Mr. Condit.

But before we do so, I need to introduce you to my co-hosts on this maiden voyage, two gentlemen who also work with me at that esteemed website, MMAFighting.com, Mr. Sean Alshaddy and Mr. Alexander K. Lee. Fellas, how are we feeling? Hello. Look at this. Doing great. Thank you for having us on.

I'm really excited because, as you said, you mentioned it already. Carlos Conant, one of your favorites. Also one of my favorites. All-time great. Also kind of underrated, like sneaky. underrated at this point in the timeline of MMA, right? Like I feel like a lot of fans sort of came on much later in the Carlos Condit game where they don't really understand what this guy was about for so long.

So I'm excited to deep dive this, man. I am really excited. And I thank you guys for joining me here. This has been a project not just for Carlos Condit, but just kind of this project in general is something I have been wanting to do for a while. And I felt like Condit was maybe the best place to start because of what you said. Sean, I think he is one of, if not, like maybe he's not the greatest action fighter of all time, but he is certainly up there.

And I feel like especially if you came into the sport recently, or even if you were one of the Connor McGregor fans who came in, you know, around Conner's rise, you didn't get to see everything about Carlos Condit that made me fall in love with him and that made kind of a lot of people of our generation fall in love with him. So I am extremely excited to get into this. This is important. This is an important project you're doing. Because I don't want to jump the gun, but I will say,

what Shaheen was saying, this is the kind of thing like, like, you know, 20 years from now, newer fans would kind of just like look at his record and just be like, oh, this guy was okay. They're like, oh, he was like, whatever. He did this and, you know, the UFC, he was, he was fine. He had a barely above 500 record, I guess,

the end of the day in the UFC, something like that. That's what they're going to look at. And they're not going to realize how many, magnificent Carlos Condon's career actually was. So this is, we are preserving something essential here, I feel. So well done, I think, for putting this project together. Wow. Coming with the positivity vibes early.

That's why we brought you, A.K., is we, look, there's only one way to approach the career of Carlos Condon, and it's with nothing but positive vibes because this man gave us a lot of great action. Also, if I can't add. Yeah. very very handsome man like like top five on most handsome lists if you're just throwing out there of all time I'm just saying I love this I think you're dead on I think he's all right he's got the ruggedness dude he's

you got you got the two types of handsome right there's the rock hold model handsome and then there's just the rugged manly man handsome which is what carlo con is embodies there I don't want to spoil anything there I think there's a section of this podcast where we'll be able to discuss that further. There is, in fact. I'll tease it. I'll tease it. You can tease it as well. We're going to, we're going to get into some categories later on. But one of those categories, I, I compare Carlos Condon to a couple of very handsome folk. So we can absolutely get in, because I think Sean is, I think he's nailed it.

Top five? All time? I mean, look, I, if you want to go with his early career before he had like the rugged beard. Okay, maybe not as handsome as an individual. Boyish. Yeah, a lot more boyish, especially he had a couple like fights around, I don't know, it was like early 20s when he had almost a buzzed head short. Not a great look for him, but once he really got into the meat of his WEC and UFC run, you're not going to find a lot of men that can stand across from him on a poster and come out looking better. That's all I'm saying. What have I done? You did. You didn't. exactly what I brought you here for. I did not want us to talk about the fighter as a fighter. I want to talk about all the other ridiculous stuff. So, but to get us started, let's at least remember the

nuts and bolts of his career. I'm going to run through a very brief recap of what Callers Conn's career was. So he made his pro debut at the age of 18 in 2002, quickly put together 13 and 2 record. But the thing that kind of put him on the map was in 06. He was part of the Rumble on the Rock Welterweight tournament. For those who don't know, that tournament is kind of one of those mythologized tournaments in MMA history featured a who's who of people. Dave Manet, Yushinokami, Jake Shields, Frank Trigg, and a little guy who will probably talk about on this podcast one day by the name of Anderson Silva. All in that, that was one welterweight tournament. Con, it was 21, relatively unknown, made an aim for himself. Stopped

Hanato Verissimo and Frank Trigg, made it to the finals where he lost to Jake Shields, but that kind of put him on the map. And from there, he was off and running. He signed with the WEC. He won their welterweight title, defended it three times. And then the UFC folded the WEC into their own organization. He made the jump to the UFC. And from there, he had a quick setback early, lost to Martin Campman, but put together four wins in a row and earned himself an interim title shot against Nick Diaz at UFC 143. That fight has gone on to be one of the more contentious unanimous decisions in history. Diaz 1-25, if you've ever heard that phrase. But Condit won the fight, won a belt, got the chance to fight George St. Pierre for the undisputed title. He, of course,

lost the GSP, but as we're going to talk about much later, I'm sure, gave GSP one of the biggest scares of his entire career with the head kick in the third round. After that, up and down, one, two, lost two, but found himself in another title fight this time against Robbie Lawler at UFC 195. If I could, I'd spend the whole podcast talking about that. It's my favorite fight of all time, but he lost a split decision to Lawler. And then that's basically the end of his career, as far as the happy parts of myself are concerned. He lost five fights in a row, managed to took some time off, back, won two, then lost to Max Griffin at UFC 264 last year and retired a few months later. So his overall MMA career is 31 and 14, 15 KOs, 13 subs, and four decisions.

He won five fight of the night bonuses and two knockout of the night bonuses in the UFC. And as mentioned, his 2016 fight against Robbie Lawler was the fight of the year. So that is Carlos Condit by the numbers in a nutshell. And now we've kind of run that down, AK, I want to start with you. What's sort of your relationship to Carlos Condit? Do you kind of, what does he mean to you as a fighter? Is he one of your favorites? I know Sean's already said that, but kind of how do you, how do you feel about Carlos Condit,

the fighter? I mean, you know, I use the word important at the beginning of this sort of chat we're having here. And I think a lot of fans would use that word to describe. In addition to, of course, being ridiculously entertaining. But for me, for someone who was, I always say I was a bit of a late bloomer when it comes to MMA fandom. I probably came in during that boom period of the mid-2000s, you know, GSP and Anderson-Silbo when

they were dominating. And it was Brock Lesnar had come in, which was a big draw for someone like myself, who was traditionally a professional wrestling fan. So anyway, so during that period. And during that time, Condit was still in the WC. But, you know, when you're a fan and you're trying to learn more and you're insatiable, you know, when you first get into MMA, then you're like, oh, I want to see a lot. other organizations that, you know, whatever is accessible, I want to get in there.

And of course, WUC was one of them. And at first, it was confusing because they had their own Walter Wight champion. And I understood that they were owned by, you know, the same parent companies of UFC. So that was confusing to me at first, but also kind of exciting. And also that part of you that wants to like be a hardcore fan, you're kind of like, okay, I want to learn more about this guy. It's like, it's almost like getting into like an indie band. You know what I mean?

Like if I like Carlos Condit, does that make me cool? Does that make me, can I now converse with the hardcores? It does. just so we're clear. Like your Carlos Konda, in fact, does make you cool. Makes you a more handsome man and a much cooler person. God, I hope so. Yes, and certainly at the time, there was an element of like, you know,

you didn't have to be hardcore to be in WC, but it was like another layer beyond just casual, you know, if you were watching WC and kind of like keeping up with it. So it was interesting to me, and I didn't understand why they had, why UFC, their parent company would have two promotions with different champions. Was it like a minor league, but it wasn't really? And then they had feather weights and band weights.

Anyway, so he kind of helped open up that door. certainly to a whole other avenue of a fandom. And then there's that part where like, you know, he's just so fun to watch. And you just get a, you got kind of this strong idea of, and I'm a huge GSP fan, but that there's fighters like GSP who win fights a certain way. And there's fighters like Carlos Conner who win fights a certain way. And you learn to appreciate, and you learn to appreciate both. I think most fans learn to appreciate both.

But it's important to have the GSP's and it's important to have the Condits. And it was so great when Conda finally made to the UFC. and proved that he could have been there all along, that the three letters next to your name, don't determine how great a fighter you are. And boy, his first run through the UFC was just, the first part of his run, I'd say, was so thrilling,

as thrilling as much of what had come before. Yeah, man, it's, I like you, I came to Condit. I obviously wasn't deep enough in the game to be a fan during the Rumble and the Rock run. I think I maybe had just found like the forums online right around that time, but I wasn't deep into it. But, you know, got into the UFC, figured out the WEC. And I remember the first fight I saw of Carlos Conditz. It was his welterway title defense against Brock Larson.

I don't think I saw the John Alessio title win. At least I don't remember it. But I distinctly remember watching the Brock Larson fight and Frank Mears on commentary. And, you know, one, we forget how good. Frank Mir was as a commentator. Like, kind of, when I was going back and watching, I kind of missed some of Frank Meir and being like, oh, he was really good at this. And just the way Condit pulled off that arm bra against a guy that, you know, I didn't

know anything, but they convinced me that Brock Larson was very good at fighting. And so I was like, oh, look at this guy. This guy's awesome. So, like, he really resonated with me and then following his career through the UFC was the same. Sean, kind of, what was your first exposure, I guess, to Condet? Were you deep in the WEC game before, you know, before AK&I? Or did you also come to it kind of in the middle?

Man, first exposure, that's a good question. I don't know. I'd have to think back quite a bit. I don't know that I can pinpoint first time I ever saw him. It probably was WEC. But for me, I mean, just in terms of the relationship with Carlos and like how you think about him in the ways we've thought about him over the years. To me, A.K. hit the nail on the head when he was talking about the way Carlos fights, right? And the way that he fought, in particular during

his peak years, and the way that he approached this game generally. Because at one point, I mean, even now, like, you look at his record, there are a few nicknames that more accurately reflect upon the athlete than this guy's nickname, right? The natural born killer. Like, obviously, that movie came out at a certain time and a certain era in the culture. And Carlos Condit, like, you couldn't pick a more accurate fighter to apply that nickname to because you even look at it now, even with the way that his career ended, with all those losses and, you know, even a couple of the wins were just decisions. 32 wins, only four decisions. But if you really, if you, if you lop off that like last chapter, right, 30 wins, two decisions. That alone is unbelievable.

Like, we do not see levels of finishing of that level of consistency just generally historically throughout the MMA space. If you look at the people in this weight class, like heavyweight is one thing. You get a lot of knockouts of heavy weight, but for a welterweight, a career welterweight to have that level of finishing throughout his entire career, that's one thing. But then you just look at the list and you look at the names. The list of names that Carlos Condet fought from 2009 to 2018, so about an eight-year, nine-year stretch. There is not a single bad name on that list. And in fact, most of them are incredible

names, starting with the moment he debuted in the UFC against Martin Campman and ending wherever you want to end it, probably in that Michael Kieso run of that, again, when he was slumping. You're looking at murderer after murderer after murderer. I could sit here and run through it all really quick, and it would just blow people away. And Martin Camdenman, Jake Allenberger, Roy McDonald, Dan Hardy, Dong Young King, Kim, Nick Diaz, George St. Pierre, Johnny Hendricks, Martin Camden again, Tyrone Woodley, Tiago Alva's, Robbie Lather, Damien Maya, Neil Magni, Alex Olivera, Michael Kiesa.

Like, dude, as an unreal list. That's like four Hall of Famers. Dude, for a decade straight. And so just the level of consistency, like peak Carlos Condit is an all-violence first-teamer for the entirety of MMA for me. And, you know, NBA, I always like to use this comparison because, like, NBA, obviously, we have all NBA teams.

Five people make the team. For me, Carlos would make the team. one of those five and that might that that is such a high bar to reach like historically to be able to get to that place and i think a lot of people would maybe put him on second team or third team i know i have a soft spot in my heart but just the fact that he's even in that conversation is incredible for again a career welterweight where there's a lot of wrestlers at welterweight always historically even started with mack hughes going down the line uh it's just a very grindy division and you don't find guys like carlos who are able to achieve this level of success for so long and

And so there's that aspect of it. But then also a secondary aspect of it, to me, where when you look at the kind of career that Carlos had, it's in a strange way, it's the kind of career that couldn't happen these days, happen again, at least in the way that it happened, right? Because for so long, this is a guy who was this hardcore delight. He was this controlled, visceral violence for the first six years of his career, and he is totally hidden away. He's bouncing around on these smaller shows.

fighting real guys, like fighting real legitimate competition on these guys, and like you said, the Rumble on the Rock, competing in tournaments like Rumble on the Rock, winning the WEC title,

finishing everybody, killer be killed. But like you, if that happens today, first of all, there are no comparisons to like a Rumble on the Rock type of tournament

because that's just like that level of talent does not exist outside of the UFC, outside of Bellator, that type of thing. Like that, you couldn't put together

that collection of names. So that alone is a memory of that time. But if something like that happens today, and let's say they figure out how to do it and get that kind of talent, and this just absolute kid, total kid just comes out of nowhere and stops two very, very established fighters to land in the finals, we know about it instantly. Like he would be a big time person and everybody would be talking to him. There would be tons of interviews with him and the UFC would have snapped him up quickly. Like, Carlos still existed in anonymity for a while after that.

Like, it's just not the type of career that we see these days. And that to me is a very cool reflection on sort of where MMA was in that era and how, you know, this was all like all of us weirdos. It's just following this. We're trying to like you said, find the forums, find the tapes, all of it. Like it's such a moment in time that it's just never coming back. And that I guess, again, has such a soft spot in my heart for it. Oh, yeah, man, for sure plays the nostalgia strings really hard. I do want to touch on everything you said, but specifically, look, his, I forget whatever the number.

was 30 and two or however we we broke that down 30 and 30 30 30 wins only two decisions at one point in his career okay so again there were a couple of things that like honestly just shocked me going back and like doing the doing the research one he's not old which is soon like he's 37 which is not an old man but it feels like he should be 50 because we got so much of him and and and he fought so hard. But if you go back, he made his debut, like I said earlier, 18 years old, one, incredible. His mom, like, you go, well, there's a story. His mom didn't want to do it.

He made his debut in Juarez. He went across the border at 18 to get into a fist fight against the will of his mother, because that's just the kind of dude the natural born killer was. But his first 17 fights, one, he had 17 fights in four years, which is a thing that doesn't happen. His first 17 fights, all of them finished in the first round. And that's not against a bunch of bumps. Obviously, there are some people there you don't know, but mixed in, there are some good fighters. And he did not see a second round until his 18th professional fight, the one against Jake Shields on the Rock. Of course it's Jake Shields. Oh, yeah.

The decision, of course. Not a great decision either. I mean, the true winner, but not a great fight. It's very Jake Shieldsy fight. So it's a, he is just, he's the definition of a get or get got fighter. And he got a lot more, he got them a lot more than they got him. So he was, he was awesome. And that's why I'm so excited to talk about him. And we all, we all know submission is not a real loss either. Like you tap out, that's not a real loss, you know. Come on. Someone jujitsu's you. It's whatever. It's like, oh, you're going to, you know, tear a ligament. Like, that's not a, that's not losing a fight. Well, one, I would expect nothing less from a man who wants to keep the martial arts apart.

Yeah. Hashtag, keep the martial arts apart. Keep the martial arts apart, yep. And Chale's son-in once told me that that just means you lose the round. Yeah. Yeah, so it's fine. It's entirely okay to lose. But great.

Well, we have got some categories to talk about. So every episode we are going to contextualize the fighters that we are talking about with categories. based around their career, kind of remembering some of our favorite things, some favorite aspects. And the first one we're going to start with is, I think it's the one we're going to spend the most time on because I had a really hard time figuring out my four here.

It's the Mount Rushmore of their fights. It's tough with this guy, man. It's really tough. So everyone knows Mount Rushmore. You pick you four, the four best, however your definition is, what you want to set them up there. With Condon, I think you have a half dozen,

maybe even like a dozen just out of the gate that you could go with. For me, and I've got some honorable mentions, but I want to hear y'all's first. But for me, I went like this. W.E.C. 35 against Hir Mitsumura, I think you've got to have a WEC fight in there. And that fight is, I don't know if y'all have watched it recently. And if you're listening to this and have never watched it, it's on Fight Pass. It is four rounds of mixing the martial arts. I'm sure AK hated it.

No, listen. If you're going to mix the martial arts, at least do it at the highest level. And that's stuff, like, that fight is an example of the martial arts being mixed in a highly professional way. It's awesome. And it's his last fight in the WEC. Right. And Muir was a guy. I remember at the time, Muir was a guy that nobody was really all that into.

I think he had been a middleweight for portions of his career. But he went hammer and tongs with Condit for four rounds. It was awesome. He's judo throwing Condit. He's like, he's nasty. Miro is nasty. Dude, it was, it was awesome. That fight, I forgot how good that fight was until I rewatched it for this.

So that fight is definitely kicking off. The other fight, I think this fight is on, it's on everyone's, I assume. UFC 195 against Robbie Lawler. Absolutely. If it's not on your Mount Rushmore of Carlers Conant, you're insane. And frankly, if it's not on your Mount Rushmore of fights, I think you're insane. And to me, it is the best fight that is, I'm going to come out. Hot take.

It's the best fight of all time. Agree. Ooh, AK. It's my favorite fight. It's my favorite fight. I've watched the many. It's so good. I knew I loved you for a reason and this is it.

We disagree on a lot of things. But at the core of it, we arrive at the same place. Sean, are you standing for Robbie against you doing it? It pains me because I don't want to talk noise on this fight because it's one of my favorite fights I've ever seen. it's the biggest robbery, it's maybe not the biggest robbery, but it's the second biggest robbery I've ever seen in my mind. It's maybe the most impactful robbery I've ever seen. Yeah, I mean, the historical impact of what that would have meant for him had it actually been scored correctly. Like it really upsets me still, even all these years later. But as great as that

fight is, and again, it's so good. I can't put it above Lawler-McDonnell, too. And so that's just a hard barrier for me to reach. Part of it was me being there for Lawler. McDonald's too and that sort of being part of what in my mind was the greatest night of MMA that I've ever seen in my life at UFC 189 but I can't put it at greatest fight ever but it's definitely in the conversation like I'm not going to get mad at anybody for that when I was when I was at the score and I was doing a top 10 all time list I actually cheated and I made them 1A and 1B I put both probably I yeah you can find that's out there it's out there on the internet what was 1A huh what was 1A no the Loller Loller Condit and then Loller McDonald's

were the one A and one. Oh, which one was, I have no idea which one A. Yeah, I don't remember. Man, I mean, we're going to get to this guy at some point in the life of this podcast, but what does it say about Robbie Lawler that the two greatest fights of all time on most people's lists, like you're going to find some people who disagree, but I think that those two fights are at the top of a lot of people's lists of greatest fights ever. Yeah.

All I'm saying is when you do the Robbie Lawler episode, because it's going to happen at some point, you need to come bring me on. Yeah, because I got thoughts. got we're going to have a lot of thoughts about Robbie Lawler, but this, this is a podcast to celebrate Carlos Condit. So I've got Miura, I've got Lawler, UFC 195. I went for the Dan Hardy fight at UFC 120. Interesting. I think it's not, it's obviously not a complete showing.

It's a first round K.O. But I think it's one, people forget this and everybody, the way their careers diverged after the fact, people think that Condit was, obviously he would have killed Dan Hardy. He was like a decent-sized underdog. Hardy was like a minus 200 minus 250 favorite coming into that fight. It was in London, so Hardy had the hometown crowd. And if you rewatch it, the commentary is all. This was Hardy coming off his title fight against GSP,

where he got blanked five rounds of nothing, but everybody was so impressed that Hardy survived against GSP. So his stock was maybe never higher than at that very moment. and Carlos Kahn, it killed him. Just absolutely knocked him out, silenced the crowd. I think it's maybe his best single highlight. And so that's going to make the Mount Rushmore for me. And then-

Real quick, if I can jump in. One of my favorite parts about Carlos in general is something that you just sort of alluded to there, which is for so long, early in his UFC career and pre that as well, no one believed in him. Like he was the underdog going into so many of these fights, like a lot of the WEC fights just throughout it. For some reason, it took everyone so long to believe in Carlos Condit

and get on board with Carlos Condit. Because you say that now, like Dan Hardy was like a sizable favor over Carlos. And that feels insane. That feels certifiably insane with what we know now, Pete Carlos Condit. But that was the reality for so long. So like this dude was just coming into these fights

with a chip on his shoulder. He was acutely aware of the fact that no one was picking him. No one believed in him. Everyone felt like, oh, he's not good enough for UFC material, that type of thing. That lasted so long, and it's just such a weird tidbit when it comes to this guy. Well, he had a weird start to his UFC career, though. I'm looking back on it now. So he had the first campman fight, which he probably should have won.

Split decision went against him. Then he had the Ellenberger fight, which he won that split decision, but that was the other way. You could have made a case that Ellenberger should have won that fight. And then he has a fight with Roy, where he's getting dominated for, what, almost the entire fight, and then has a comeback. till the last 10 seconds. Yeah, so there was reasons to kind of doubt

whether he would be a, you know, top contender in the UFC, and that's kind of, I can see why going to the Dan Hardy fight, he'd be such an underdog. But it's funny, yeah, very weird start to his UFC, right? Plus, the Miura win. I mean, again, nobody thought much of Muir at the time. And so when Muir are a guy who nobody knew

went hammer and tongs with him, like he, even coming into the UFC, they were shy on him because he was the WEC champion and never lost, and he was a fun fighter. but there were real questions about where he could go. And so, yeah, it is super weird to look back, though, and think that Dan Hardy was a minus 250 favorite for Carlos Condon. Like, that's absolutely insane for me to think of.

And then the last spot is where I really struggled, because I wanted to get a Hardy, I wanted to get a big-time highlight, K-O. finish. I think you could have gone with a lot. Like I said, I went with the Hardy one. I ultimately, I can't, I can't in my soul put the Nick Diaz's UFC 143 fight on there. I assume one of you gentlemen will have. I didn't. We're going to have to talk about that fight, but for me, even though it's a loss, it's,

I went for the George St. Pierre fight at UFC 154, even though it is a loss, it's a loss where he arguably lost all five rounds. I think he lost four of them. that fight was more fun than I think people remember it. I think they mostly remember it as George doing a lot of lay and prey. And there's some of that. But outside of the round three, you know, kick that almost upset the world, the rest of that fight is still competitive to an extent. Condit is still fighting.

He's working good. They are both bleeding like stuck pigs just all over the cage. And so I think I went with that one because we're going to talk about this a little bit later. I think it's one of the high points of his career. And I think it just sort of shows, even in defeat, kind of a lot of good things about Condit. I've got a couple of honorable mentions, but I want to see where you guys are in your Mount Rushmore's. Well, let me go first yet, because our list are pretty similar. Okay. I had, in another thing that's funny, we had two, we both had two Condit losses because I had the longer. So I was going to say that to me,

that's very interesting that two losses out of the four spots. Because I had, because I I used to believe Lawler is a loss. I reviewed. Fair. But that's fair. But I debated putting the GSP one on my list. But then I just couldn't, because I'm already putting the Loller there. It's like I can't give him two losses out of four with Mount Rushmore.

GSP was the one that almost didn't make it because I was going to go with a couple of real deep cuts. But we'll talk about the, it felt better as honorable. Well, so I went with Loller. I went with GSP. I went with Mura again. Like you said, it's such an important fight. because it was his last fight before going to the UFC. So it's this end of this one very important chapter in Carlos Conn's career.

And it's just a banger. It is a really amazing fight. Like it's super competitive. And it's not like an end since some highlight. The only thing that's missing is kind of like a highlight, real flashy ending, like kind of just kind of outlasts him and kind of just like pounce him out. But that's also part of the drama of it. There's like this war of attrition to it.

So really, really beautiful fight. Definitely one that people have to see. The other one. So then I went fourth in the list. Well, I'll tell you, I had a little help from an article written by a young man named Shaheen El Shadi. There's an article I would recommend

people look it up. This was written really just like eight months ago, not that long ago, like eight months ago, I think like last summer. Maybe like July.

Yeah, my favorite. That would have been his final fight. This young man sat down with Carlos Condit and got him to talk about my favorite fights. Carlos Condit breaks down the five fights

that most shaped his career. And one of them really jumped out at me and I want and I'm kind of like you, Chad, like I said, our list were so similar. I wanted to have like one kind of cool knockout on there.

So I went with the Hanato Verissimo fight. That's on my list as well. 17 second finish of a guy who had just who had just fought for the UFC title. We kind of see these things happen now. These days, like a person will leave the U.C. I didn't think he fought for the title. He had fought Matt Hughes.

Yeah, but Matt Hughes wasn't a champion because Matt Hughes had just lost the belt to BJ Penn. He didn't fight for the title, but he was regarded as one of the better guys. And Hughes was the de facto welterway champion because BJ was gone. But he just hadn't done it. He never fought for the title, though?

I'm thinking of Gil Castillo for some reason. You are. That is weird. Okay, that is weird. Okay. But he did fight Matt Hughes right after Hughes lost to BJ Penn, but PJ had left the UFC, so it was in that sort of weird interim spot. And some people thought he won, that he beat Matt Hughes.

But so, I mean, I just had to put that on there because it's such a cool story about Carlos arguably being one of the lesser-known, not arguably, sorry, being one of the lesser-regarded names in this tournament, and then just coming out and taking out a big gun, a UFC guy. And that was such a big deal back then when, oh, a UFC guy goes, like, gets beaten outside of the UFC. It's like, oh, my gosh. Like, that happens all the time now, because there's so many former UFC fighters. But, yeah, I mean, 17 seconds clips him with a knee. I believe grounded knees were legal because he's just, he's just drilling him.

He's drilling him down. There are no rules on the rock. I'm pretty sure they're not to the body. I'm pretty sure he's just drilling into the head. And Risma is just completely out of it after. Like, there's no argument with the stoppage. Rissmo is just like looking up like what the hell happened to me, probably in the mind thanking the ref for saving him.

So, but yeah, I think I think that's a cool one on there. And just to defend the two defeats, like I said, I think these losses kind of, and where there's going to be a theme throughout, like define why he's one of these fighters that needs to be spotlighted because the losses just do not tell the story. And they're important to have on his Mount Marshmore because you have to watch the fights to really appreciate it. Again, the Lawler fight, as Shaheen has been saying, really feels like he won. A lot of people would agree.

I also scored for Condit. I don't consider it a robbery, but I did score for Condit. And GSP, I mean, that knockdown, people remember, this was GSP peak, like, I don't get hurt. I fight not to get hurt. Ever since, people always say the Sarah fight changed everything for him. You know, he got that one flash knockout, completely changed his career in his fighting style. And there's definitely some truth to that. He definitely emphasized control and defense over, you know, aggression.

And that's fine. And there's nothing wrong with that. His fights, I think are still marvelous to watch. But up to that point, I mean, the Jake Shields fight was a fight before that where nobody hurt anybody. It's a horrible fight. Josh Kosscheck was when he introduced the jab, just completely smoked him. Dan Hardy, classic GSP. So those are three fights before Condit.

So there was a lot of thinking that, well, Condit's going to be the next guy to get GSP, to get 50-45. Especially because he can't wrestle. The man can't wrestle. He might be deadly off his back, but his huge weakness is quite easy to take down. Quite easy take down. And, of course, GSP at that time, the master of the MMA takedown. So when he lands a head kick, boy, I mean, just imagine if there's, just imagine if there was, like an over-eager referee that decided we were won like over-eager referee away it was really close right

honestly if that fight isn't in Montreal I think there's a chance that somebody just gets a little too excited and it's like no if it's done I think people just remember the knockdown and don't remember condit like pouncing right on him and he's throwing he's throwing some shots follow it up yeah he's doing some ground about JSP was defending pretty intelligently but again we have seen fight stop for less, I would say. Not championship fights. Championship fights, I would say, it was a championship fight, like I said. It was in Montreal. Those factors helped. But we've seen like non-champmentment fights get stopped or someone eats a head kick and the referee is right away is kind of

like, okay, I'm just looking for anything to stop this fight and a little bit of ground and pound is all it takes. But it didn't happen. But this is how close, he really came close to becoming only the third guy to finish GSP, the second guy to finish him and to do so during the very safe, invincible GSP period. So that's why I would definitely defend having that one on there. But, Shane, I assume you're going with all wins. So, well, a quick story about the GSP fight for me, because that was a very memorable experience. Were you at that?

In my life. I wasn't at that. I was actually on vacation. I was in Kuwait. I was in Kuwait visiting family. It was actually right after my father passed away. So I was at my uncle's house with my brother. And the time zones in the Middle East are obviously far different.

So it was like the middle in the morning. It was like 4 a.m., something like that. 3m, 4m, we're the only ones up in the house. I woke him up, my brother, because I was like, dude, GSP's going to fight Carlos. Like, this is going to be a really good fight. And he was excited for it as well. So we woke up in the middle of the night and we watched this. And when Carlos landed that head kick in the third round,

I woke up at least three different people in that house with the sound that just like came out of my body. That I couldn't even help. I'm just, some type of like, it was like standing on the bed thinking, Like there's no way in hell that this is actually going to happen because you're right. It was one way traffic up to that point. Super memorable fight. And that to me is one of the most agonizing parts of the Carlos Condit story, which was,

gets two different shots at the UFC title, and both of them were so agonizingly close. And he gave so much of himself in both of those fights, in particular the Lauder fight, but both of them, to winning that, to getting that objective to cross that off on the career checklist and to come so close twice. and then just have it ripped away from you two different times. Like, that is, it still hurts me. I mean, there are not a lot of fighters who have come closer to winning and undisputed. Like Alexander Gustafson, maybe. Chale?

Chale the one time, though. But Gustafsson had the DC and the Jones fights. True, yeah, he had two, yeah. And they were scored differently. And they were scored differently. Yeah, it is, it was really tough. That hurts. Really tough for Condit.

So, but if that's, So that's not on your list. Lawler obviously is. So that's not on my list. But Lawler absolutely is. You can't talk about Carlos Conner without talking about the Robbie Lawler fight. And we've already hit that,

so I won't go too much into that. The three others I had, super proud of you, A.K. For the Nihonato Verissimo pick, because that was actually my first one I picked after the Lawler fight. Like you said, Jen. Look at you guys go.

They're so proud of y'all. Six or 12 that you could just throw a dart at this resume and it would you're not going to find a bad fight for well you i mean you're going to find a couple of bad fights well not i'll talk about not i'll talk about one later not in his real career not in his real career i don't count anything post-lawler but the verissimo one to me was it definitely belongs in there because i've we've already talked about this rumble on the rock tournament a lot so i don't want to rehash it but if you just consider the names in this tournament right it's six man who either went on to hold the UFC title or challenge for the UFC title.

Anderson, Silva, Jake Shields, Yushin Okami, Dave Monet, Frank Trigg, Condit, and then Verissimo. It's just like, that's an absurd group of people that Carlos Connett at that point in his career absolutely did not belong amongst at all. Frank Trigg, Frank Trigg had nearly won the title like a year before this in the UFC. Like, this was a very fresh Frank Trigg off of all this. and Verissimo was the A side to this fight. Everyone thought, you know, hey, this is the coach of BJ Penn. He's a black belt and jiu-jitsu.

Like, he's fought Matt Hughes. He's fought Carlos Newton. He's beaten Carlos Newton. Like, he's going to be one of the top dogs in this tournament. And Carlos Connick goes out there, and as AK said, just unbelievable violence for 17 seconds. This just knees this dude right in the chest or in the face. It's hard to tell with the angle. And it's just, it's beautiful.

It is absolutely gorgeous violence. And to get it done in 17 seconds again as such an underdog, like that to me belongs on the list. That sort of was the first fight that opened everybody's eyes of like, holy shit. Like what's going on with this Carlos Condit guy? So that's my second one. My third one, I'm going WC as well. I felt like it was important to have WC representation. I actually went a different route, though.

I went the Brock Larson fight, which Jed, you alluded to that earlier in this show. That's an interesting fight to me because coming into that, I think Brock Larson, I don't remember his record at the time. I think he was like 24 and 1. And like you don't, it's funny to hear it now of like, oh, Brock Larson, he's this big contender. He was also. You know who that one loss was two?

John Fitch. Like he was 24 and John Fitch. There you go. That's a damn good record. This is the important part of doing things like this because it's impossible to contextualize history just from looking at a Wikipedia page. People will look at Brock Larson and just dismiss it. But it's like, no.

Brock Larson was an actual imposing dude who mattered to a certain degree. And going into that Carlos Konda fight, Carlos was already the WEC champion, and he was the underdog in that fight as well with the Brock Larson fight. Brock Larson was basically the heir apparent to this title. And Carlos just goes out there and subs them in like two minutes. And it just makes it look easy. And it's just, it's unbelievable. I think it's probably one of the final turning points where people started to stop doubting

Carlos at least to a certain degree. So that's on there as well. And then for me, I wanted some sort of late career representation other than the WALder fight. So I guess UFC representation, I should say, other than the WALder fight. So for me, the Martin Kampman rematch. That was up on there. That was the next one on my list.

That one just got bumped by the GSP fight. It is such an unbelievably good fight. Action through and through, nonstop action for four rounds. low-key-banger. No one ever talks about Condit, Campman, too, when they talk about their favorite fights. But unbelievable finish, unbelievable fight. And kind of, if we're being honest,

I would say either that or the Tiago Alves one is the last time that we saw really peak Condit in a win. And that, to me, felt important. So that's my fourth one. I respect them all. I want to throw a couple of shoutouts here for the guys who just missed my list. one, Martin Camman, too, that was the next one up. Carlo Prater, the rematch in the WBC, that was the one that I considered instead of the

Miura fight. Miura fights obviously better, but Prater had a win over Condit, and I remember coming into that fight, that was a big narrative of, okay, well, he beat Brock Larson to get the belt, but now this is the dude that's already tapped him, like, and he comes and just shows out against Prater. and then two more. One, Tatsunoi Tanaka, he fought him in pancreas, and the reason I think about this fight is because it's the only time I've ever seen

Carlos Condit with kicks to the head of a downed opponent legal, and Carlos Condit literally stomps his way to victory, and if you are looking for some casual violence in your life, go find the video of this. It's on YouTube, and it is Carlos Condit stomping a man in the face, and that's as violent as that sounds. And then the last one, have you guys ever seen him knock out the special forces guy?

I don't know. It's like the funniest thing in the, oh, like the not a fighter, like the actual special forces guy. It's incredible. He went and did, I forget where they were. It was like him and Bissing. Like a USO tour.

Yeah, they did like that. And they were rolling with him in some special, there's video of some special forces guy. I've been like, oh, you were a spa and con it's like, yeah, it's great. And it's like, the guy's like, how hard do you want to go? And Condit, the most badass man in the world is like, tell you what, you hit me as hard as you want to get hit back. And we'll just go from there. And the dude just clocks him, like, sucker punches him real hard.

And then Condit, a minute and a half later, knocks him out and through the ropes. It's awesome. And like every, all of his friends, like the Special Forces guys, are cheering it on. It's unbelievable. They're like, yeah. So, shout out to that. I can't believe that it didn't make your top four. It couldn't because, you know, it just couldn't.

But I wanted to mention it because it could. It's an incredible MMA other world highlight that I just, in case people hadn't seen it or heard about that, I want to expose you to this aspect of Carlos Kondit. Any other ones that we haven't talked about that y'all had considered throwing in there? I mean, I know we mentioned it. I do want to say, I almost feel like I left out Nick Diaz. I almost feel like I forgot it. I know it's not a super entertaining fight to watch.

But again, for me, it was very informative as far as, I should say informative, illustrative, excuse me, as far as how to judge a modern MMA fight. Because I remember watching that live and I was just a fan at the time and probably wasn't paying super close attention to everything that was happening. I was definitely at a bar, watching a bar. And I just thought Diaz won. I thought Diaz won.

I was like, I was with my friend and we were like almost like disappointed You were not alone. Right. And I was almost disappointed that it wasn't more of like, oh, we thought it was back. Oh, the natural born killer. And Nick Diaz, me back and forth. Like, bra, it's me sick, bro.

And like, that's how I talked back then. And then it just obviously didn't turn out that way. It was a super tactical fight. This was peak Greg Jackson, you know, a Jedi master. Oh, this guy's such a genius thing. And they had the right plan. And after watching the, I did a robbery review for it. And after watching the fight closely,

this is where I started, you know, afterwards, After reading the discourse about it, I understood the difference between coming forward and controlling where a fight goes. Because Condit absolutely controlled where that fight went. You are not controlling a fight if you're chasing a guy, right? That you are following him. He is literally leading the dance. And there's little things like that.

And the precise counter striking. And it was still a close fight. Like, obviously, I don't think it's like, oh, clear cut Condit like killed him. I think anyone who watched that fight will go like, I mean, it was, it was a, I think a clear win for Condit, but not like, oh, he dominated Nick Diaz. I think that'd be an absurd thing to say. But he definitely won the fight. And I think for me, that's such a huge.

For me, that was a big deal as far as learning, just becoming more educated as a fan and understanding that coming forward and octagon control and things like that, certainly do not dictate a winner. So I have a story about this fight because this fight, UFC 143, is actually the first fight,

the first UFC fight I was ever in attendance for. This was in, I think January, February 2012. I had just moved to Las Vegas. to be a professional gambler. We can talk about that another time. But wait, what? Bering the lead here. I didn't know that.

The lead has been buried. Yeah, so I just moved to Las Vegas. Clearly didn't work out for you. No, it was actually going very well. But then I decided I was going to be a lawyer. And then that didn't. I decided not to do that after I went to law school. What a life this guy hat.

Jeez, Louise. Many hats. But the point being, that was the first UFC had ever attended. At that point, I'd been a fan for, a number of years, you know, probably close to eight. And huge, super excited about this. And let me tell you, everyone in attendance hated that fight and really hated the outcome. There were so many people booing just the whole, like everybody in front of me, because, you know, it's the end of the night.

A lot of people had several beverages at them. and they are just going after Condit. And I'm sitting there, and I was, you know, from the bleeds or whatever. I was like, oh, no, man, I kind of think Conant won. Like, he kicked him in the leg a lot. Nick Diaz didn't do anything about that. I know it's not the fight we were expecting on paper, but like, it seems fair that he won and almost got in the fight with the guy in front of me.

He was extremely into Nick Diaz as a fighter. So that's my story about UFC 143. Sean, any other fights that you didn't talk about that you feel the need to speak on here? No, I mean, I think we've hit most of the major ones. I will say about Diaz, I made a very conscious decision to leave that off of my list. I do feel as though, and I'm sure we'll get to it in a later category, I do feel as though there is a case to be made where that is the peak of Carlos Connett's career, so that maybe feels weird to omit it from a Mount Rushmore.

but to me, I guess it depends on how you view a Mountain Rushmore what that means to you when you hear the phrase of like how you want to apply it. Because to me, a Mount Rushmore really means the fights that I would want to go back and watch the most, the most rewatchable fights, the most memorable fights, the most impressive fights. And while that Dia's fight is obviously an important fight for Carlos's career, just when you look at the trophy case and the belt that he won from it, to me it doesn't apply the rest of the rubric, the criteria that I, would sort of lay out there.

So I made a very conscious decision to leave that off. And I don't even think it, even if you give me like a top 10, I don't know that it's good. It would have bait it. Yeah, I, I'm very much in the same boat. I have it in a, or tangential to another category. And so let's go to some other categories in honor of arguably the greatest well-to-way of all time, George St. Pierre. The I'm not impressed by your performance award.

This award is going to go to the fight. It doesn't have to be a fight. It could be any moment where you think that that's not his best, you know, stuff like that. So I think we've got a couple of, you know, there are a lot of options from late career condent. I don't think you can do anything early. But for me, I am leading with the Demi and Maya fight. It was the one immediately after the Lawler fight. And I think it was clear at that point, at least to me, that the Condit era had ended.

After the fight, Condit even said, hey, you know, Demi and Maya. Brick-fisted, Demi and Maya hurt me with a punch on the ground. So that's when I kind of knew, okay, this is probably it for Carlos Condit. And so I have another honorable mention that's a very different kind of concept here. But for me, it's the Maya. Sean, what about you? No, I went in the same boat as you on this one. I mean, that was sort of because, again, that was so, that was right after Robin Laudler.

And so, and I was going to say it was quickly after, but it wasn't. I mean, it was that the law that was in January, it opened the year, and then this one was in August. So Carlos took a long time off. It felt like he was sort of trying to recharge, get that motivation back up. But again, he was inches away from winning the welterweight title. And then to come in there against Damia Maya, it felt like, hey, if he wins this, maybe he can get another shot quickly. And then it's over two minutes later. That was anticlimactic.

And as you said, the way that Carlos sort of handled it afterwards of him just almost admitting to himself, you know, like, hey, like, I wasn't in this mentally. like I just don't even know if I'm in this anymore generally. That to me was the pick. I mean, because there's a lot here for late career, Carlos, that we could sort of wade through for like disappointing performances because that's just how it goes in this game when somebody's at the end of their career. But that was, again, the turning point for me.

So I agree with you. For A.K., where are you at? I hated that Damien Maya matchup so much. I don't know how much control, you know, a conduct would have had over his matchups at the time or even if he did, whether he should say no to a match or something like that, because Maya was very, very, like, rankings-wise, I remember the fight very much made sense. I don't recall if the UFC, I'm pretty sure they had their own official ranks at the time,

even if they didn't, you know, you look at like Sherdog rankings, whatever popular rankings. You know, this was pre-M-A fighting global rankings, sadly. The only rankings that matter. The only rankings that matter. And I believe we had been taking it at the time. I mean, Maya and Condo would have been around in the same race somewhere, you know, somewhere in the top seven, right? So it made sense, ranking-wise. But boy, stylistically, I mean, we talk about GSP being a bad matchup for him.

Damien Maya, maybe the best, you know, jujitsu wrestler we've seen. You know, he's one of those jutsu guys who can not only kill you on the ground. He can get you there real fast. This fight went, like, exactly as all of us, I think, predicted it would go. Especially, like, you know, there's like scenarios where we thought Konda could win, but generally is like, this is, if they fight 99 out of 100 times, sorry, if they fight 100 times, 99 out of 100, he's getting taken down. he's getting submitted.

It was just really depressing to watch. It's just not the kind of fight that coming off the Loller fight. Again, we shouldn't have, I wish we weren't so focused on, oh, how do we get him back into the title picture? How do we keep him in contention? He should have just been given a fun fight after this.

I know that's not how the UFC works. Even today, that's not how it works. We don't do that. Guys lose title fights, and they're throwing into some dumb ass matchup, like killer matchup for the very next fight. And this is how guys go from the fight. Unless you're Colby Covington.

Unless you're Colby Covington. Or Jorge Mossfahl, who got an immediate remit match, Condit should have just got an immediate rematch. Yeah, that would have been nice too. There was so many better ways to handle this, Damien Maya, promotional malpractice. And if Conant had a choice, he should have said no. I really just wish that fight had not happened.

Yeah, but that's not who Carlis Conant isn't a guy who says no is the thing. Fun fact about that fight, I just looked it up. Two total strikes were landed in that fight. One by each man. It was Demi and Maya took him down. tapped him. It was just not great. I do have an honorable mention. It's a more

you know, ephemeral kind of an idea and it's Carlos Condit's wrestling because apparently this man has been wrestling since nine years old and he just... He just never learned how to do it. Is that true? That's Wikipedia said it, so

I'm going to like that was like the first combat sport he got into was wrestling as a child and he at the bare minimum he's been wrestling since he was 15 because that's when he started training with Greg Jackson. And he never got good at it. Like, not even competent, which is, I mean, we can just talk about it right now. I think he, he, you talked at the beginning of the show, Sean, about how we're never

going to have a career like his again for a lot of reasons. We're also never going to have a career like his again because I don't know if it's physically possible for a fighter to be bad at wrestling and compete. in this time period of, of wrestlers. Like, he fought in the most wrestling heavy division in the world and couldn't do it at all. And still somehow was a hair away from winning a title twice. Twice.

Yeah. In today's in today's MMA, he would have been matched up with, like, Logan Storeley in, like, his, like, 12th fight or something. You know what I mean? Like, right? There's no, because we have such an influx of the Division I, All-Americans, Division II champions. There's such an influx.

And they all. else they're all in that lower, of course, they come up like, you know, to lose at least three or four fights in that lower range. At some point, Condit would have ran into one of those guys and just cut and grinded and lost the decision. And that there was just wasn't quite that influx of wrestlers, as you said, like back then, at least on the lower levels, right? So, but now, oh, yeah. Also that in the way, the way that top control has evolved throughout the years, like Carlos, back in the day, he would get taken down, but he would catch a lot of submissions on the ground. Like the, the Brock Larson fight that I threw on my top on my Mount Rushmore was a submission from the

bottom. Like he was very deadly down there, but like how many times you see in that now these days? Like the way top control has evolved, like no one's fallen for arm bars and triangles on the bottom unless like it's very, very random and rare to see. So it's just not a game that would be replicated well or work well, I should say, in this era. He would definitely need to short that defensive wrestling because you're right, aka he would 100% get matched up with a Logan Storely or a Sean Brady or any of these number of guys. The thing is, though, it shouldn't have worked in his era. I still don't understand because it's not like he managed to skirt and avoid wrestlers.

Jake Ellenberger was, I think, an All-American wrestler in college. Jake fell in love with his hands in fairness. Yeah, sure, but also the man can crack. So, you know, that's fair. But, like, he just, he just lived in a very strange time. He was so violent. He was just so violent. The rest of it didn't matter.

He didn't need to take people to be able to stop a take down. He was just the most violent man alive. So we're all in agreement on the impressed by your performance award, though, Damia Maya, just because the rest of them all feel like they were after the fact there anyway. Let us never speak of it again. Never, never speak of it again. Next up, the Ivan Minjavar Award. This award is named after El Salvadorian fighter Ivan Minjavar, who has always cracked me up that George St. Pierre,

his first fight was against Ivan Minjavar. Minjavar were going to be a bantam weight at various points in time, and somehow that was, and was like a well-established, well-known guy, fought a bunch of big organizations. And so as an homage to him and being such an odd name in the records of the inals of history, name this award. So the idea here is, who is the weirdest, strangest opponent that Carlos Kahn has ever faced or if you really want to take it to a weirder extreme what's the weirdest fight he ever

had just performance we're just trying to get weird with it and for me a couple of options but i don't know if you guys even looked into this oh i got a good one do i got a good one i bet we're in the same i bet we're in the same neighborhood because uh did you know that carlos conde fought andy sour in a kickboxing match that was one of mine yeah that was one of mine it was not only was it in a kickboxing match. It was Carlos Connett's debut in kickboxing. And he was 19. Also, an extension of that, right a couple years after, he fought Marcus Davis in kickboxing, and that blows my mind. Like, if you'd ask me before doing this, has Carlos Connett ever fought Marcus Davis? And I'd be like, no, I'd have bet a substantial amount of my income on that.

and the Irish hand grenade and Carlos Gondit just kickboxing each other. So those are my weird ones. I think you could make a case for Frank Trigg, but what do you got? Do you guys have anybody that I'm missing? Okay. So I have a good one. Go ahead, Jane. I was looking at this, and one particular name caught my eye as I'm looking at this resume.

So I did a little Googling. Have you guys ever heard of Tommy Gage or Gauge? I'm sorry, Tommy Gouch. No. So Tommy Gouge is the second man Carlos Conda ever fought in mixed martial arts. Tommy Gouge, aside from having a name that sounds like the most cliche Bond villain ever, or just like a terrible street fighter character in like a fighting game or something. Tommy Gouge is 0 and 10 in his professional record, all finishes.

He's been finished in all 10 of those fights. There's also a Tommy Gouge who is the same. age is this gentleman from the same state who has face tats galore who is in prison right now for killing his wife on valentine's day and if you look up tommy gouge you're going to see this gentleman who looks insane uh again the face tats i cannot overstate how many face tats he has but tommy gouge in jail currently right now for murdering his wife on valentine's day was uh-in-10 fighter who carlos condet fought in his second professional fight and it is incredibly bizarre to me oh i thought you were going to say it wasn't the same guy i

thought you were you were saying it was like so i think it was i mean it all lines up to be okay it's the same guy how many tommy gouges are there in oklahoma who are 41 or 42 years old i'm just saying but it was a very bizarre one could be a lot of them um this is this is actually the best answer possible because this is the spirit of this awards is what's the weirdest thing that's ever happened? And that feels right up there. Can we give a shout out to Carlo Prater, who a weird kind of two-fight feud with Condit, I guess,

if you want to call that. He really nice early record for Prater, 14-1-1 to start. Again, beats Condon in their first meeting, submission. No surprise there, again, not Condit's strength throughout his career. Spencer Fisher beat him. Melvin Galard, submitted him as well. Again, not the crazy thing.

But Carlos Prater was like pretty a good prospect early on. he loses the rematch eventually makes to the UFC and then has a very strange UFC run Eric Silva his UFC debut where he wins because Eric Silva punches him to the back of the head one too many times this was back when Eric Silva was like a thing too wasn't he Eric Silver was the new hotness yeah this is when Eric Silva was going to be the man and he legitimately destroyed Prater in like 30 seconds but like I can't it was a very bad DQ it was not like oh Eric Silva should have watched his shots it was like I think like Prater was going down or was, you know, he's moving his head in such a way and Eric Silva's trying

to punch him out. And it's like, okay, yeah, he catches in the back of the head a few times. It was egregious in the moment. Like, as soon as it happened, everybody was outraged. Very bad as qualification. T.J. Grant, again, and now the weirdness starts to spread. Then you have T.J. Grant, who, of course, went on to, or he lost him, and then T.J. Grant goes on to earn a lightweight title shot that he never gets and we never, and we never see him fight again eventually because he has concussion. So that's the weirdness spreads. And then he fights Marcus Leveser, who was a prospect once upon a time, loses unanimous decision to him.

This is Prater's last UFC fight. Leverser fights one more time after Prater and then never fights again. So it's just this weirdness that spread. I feel like we're talking about weird. It's amazing when you go down this rabbit hole of these notable names and that they just go in these bizarre directions. So I'm going to give some shout out to hashtag Carlos on Carlos because they went in very different directions after I,

guess their second fight, you know, so you can even say after their first fight, they went in different directions, but yeah, there you go. Carlos, Condett won the rights to the name. He did. Carlos, I said. Carlis had to take the S off that, yeah. Carlo and Carlos. And by the way, uh, Carlo Prater fought as recently as last September. Did he really? He's not retired. He is not retired. He is not retired. Good for you. He is not retired. There's a lot of red on that record in the last nine years. He's not retired. Wow. I did not retire. Carl's Grasier. We're still going.

He's still fighting. Next category. The Fador Sweeter of Absolute Victory. This is for the piece of memorabilia. If you could pick one, you know, think Quentin Rampage, Jackson's chain, stuff like that, which was the runner up to the name of this category. But you can't argue against Fader's Sweater of Absolute Victory. I want to start with you guys this time because I have a number of things here.

But let me go first because I have no idea. I have no idea. This is the one category that stumped me. And again, this is our first time doing this. So I'm happy to just leave it to you guys. I was like, I was like his jock strap. I don't know what. What?

I don't know. Why would that be the first one? I'm just trying to think what would be some unique piece of memorabilia that you could have. Like, I don't know. I don't like, at least when it comes to Carl's Condon, like a fairly no, I feel like a no frills kind of guy. Like, what do I, what piece of memorabilia do I want from Carl's continent? I leave it to you guys. Hopefully I'll have better answers in the future.

If I'm ever invited to this show again, go ahead. Show me how this is done. I don't understand this category. Sean, you've got to have better than jockstrap. We have 20 years of this man in our lives, and you went with jogstrap right out of the gate. That might be my answer next time, too. I honestly, I don't understand this category.

Make it a bit. Whatever you're into, you're into. I'm not going to hate. That just surprised me. So for me, I mean, this was a difficult one for me as well, but I think ultimately, with memorabilia, it's a little bit tough because I don't know that Carlos has like a really iconic, you know,

like logo or sort of trademark style that he wore like Anderson has the spider shorts and BJ has the belt shorts, those type of things. I don't know if there's anything like that that I associate with Carlos. So for me, I went the bloody trunks from the lollular fight. Oh, see, that's a good one. That, to me, would be a very cool thing.

Frame hanging up in the office. Any time somebody walked in be like, You see that? That's from that one time this guy, this legend of the game, got jobbed. So damn hard. Yeah, but imagine what the jockstrap looked like actually that fight, though. I mean, that's the real jockstrap with the jockstrap with the bloody jockshund.

Whoa, no, you can only pick one. Hold on, you're only picking one. I'm getting the jockstrap, buddy. You can have the shorts. See, this is. Just the time I need to reignite that rage. I would just look at it. That's how you do it, AK.

That's a great answer. I the two things, three things I have, but two that really jumped out of me. The first is I just loved the WEC belt. I'll give me any of his belts. Like,

I just thought that was really clean, classic, understated, MMA title, which is not like a thing that happens a lot. So I would love one of those. Also,

bring back the WEC Blue Cage. I don't know where I could fit the blue cage in my office. It might be tough, but like, it was, man, rewatching those fights was like, this is great. This is just a good thing to watch. And the last thing that I kind of, I think the thing that would be most likely is, uh, there's maybe nothing that has stuck with me more in the entire history of this sport than that image after the Lawler fight of, of Condit and Lawler, just hanging on the cage side by side, absolutely spent. Yeah. I think it's, to me, it's the most iconic thing that

the sport has ever produced and just a photo of that image um if if i could find one i would frame it and put it over my desk or or you go a little bigger think a little bigger darling and get the actual fence post from that side of that octagon from that night if right i mean that's that's actually the best one see look sean we're already working our way through things that's that's perfect if someone is looking for a gift for me for christmas next year that side of the fence post where they and I can get two fat heads of them and just recreate the scene in my office. It'll be great. It'll be the best thing that's ever happened to me.

Next category here, we have the International Player Hater's Ball. So we're doing a lot of love, a lot of great things happening, but not everything was good about content. We've touched on some of it. This is just to pick, you know, pick apart their career in some ways. Take some shots. if you have shots to take about Carlos Condit's career, you know, anything like that, take them. And for me, we've touched on a lot of this already, but the big one, he cannot wrestle, like, at all. And that's a, that's a huge problem.

And that was mine as well. Is it? Okay. It's just the lack of wrestling throughout and also, I think the Nick Dia's fight as well. If we're just doing nitpicks, the Nick Dia's fight as well. Those are the two ones that I could kind of go back to of. Well, this didn't exactly go the way that you would want it to. Obviously, he won, but you know what I mean.

You could maybe nitpick his, you know, his ability to sell fights, I guess. But, you know, he had such a natural coolness about him and the branding of the natural born killer. But yeah, if you want to, maybe it could have been a more compelling personality than Mike. He always came off as kind of a nice guy. He's kind of the pre like Vicente Lucke. You know what I mean? It's almost good call. Great call.

Yeah, Proto Lucke, right? It's like super exciting guy. We all know it. Everyone who watches him. But it's just a tough. He's kind of a tough sell to anyone. who's not, again, a more casual viewer. So if you want a nitpick, yeah, maybe he could have been more famous.

Maybe, you know, a podcast like this wouldn't be necessary. If there's like one or two good Carlos Condit soundbites, I don't think I can think of one. Maybe I'm forgetting a, oh, he's got the best soundbite. Which I tried to find a way to make this a category. He's the one who actually said the misattributed quote to Nick. Oh, spinning. We're throwing spin itish now, huh? Because it's Condit in the post fight saying, yeah, Nixon, they're talking.

He's just like, oh, we're throwing spin it. So technically, Nick Diaz did say it as far as we put in the fight. He didn't put the quote out there. The point that he's heard is from Condon. Condit brought it into the world. So there you go. So, yeah, he did contribute something on the mic. That's true.

But, yeah, he wasn't a big mic guy. However, you just, we're going to have to skip ahead to one of these other categories because you just brought up a thing that I've never considered. And it's a Carlos Connors. Vichente-Luke fight. So we're going to skip ahead to the Habib Tone Award, which is for a fight that never got to happen that you'd like to see, or you can stretch us out to, you know, fantasy matchmate,

Carlos Kondin is prime versus anybody. I think there are, I mean, one, he's one of the greatest action fighters for all time, so there are a million choices here. I didn't even conceive of Vesente-Luke fight until you just mentioned the man's name and now part of my soul weeps that we will never get. prime Condit versus Vicente Lucke because that's just anarchy but there was a window too there was a window in like 2015-16 range where you could have caught them both and it would have been it would have been okay like it's not too late for Condit and it's not too early for

Vicente no he was too busy fighting Damien Maya yeah we got that fight instead not great so I have a bunch of I have a bunch of contenders here and tell me tell me where you think one Carl Peresian that I think that this is the one that probably would get slept on the most but right at that end

of the WEC run Parisian was still one of the top wealth weights in the world that just went hammering terms with Nick Diaz you know that was that was the fight

that kind of made Caro to some extent I think that fight would have been awesome at the time Paul Daly they were scheduled

never fought can you imagine how that fight would have looked Mike Pyle Nobody really thinks about Mike Pyle But another great action fighter And then the last one

Actually this is from Condit When he spoke with Aero Halani After you retired The fight he the most wish had happened That didn't was against Chris Lytle Who he was scheduled to fight a couple of times And injuries kind of intervened So that's kind of my list

I think Well now that I'm thinking Luka that may be checking me here But for me, I think Paul Daly is the one that, as I'm thinking about it, would just be the most fun. But I'm willing to hear other options or counter arguments. So I had three that popped out immediately as I was sort of looking at this and trying to work through this. One is more of a personal thing, which is I really wish he would have gotten the Johnny Hendrix rematch. But like, I wish he would have gotten the Johnny Hendricks rematch when Johnny was already washed, that type of thing. because their first fight was spectacular.

It was, it's one of the better three-round fights you'll ever see if you go back and re-watch it and you're catching them both at the right moment. But then Johnny got washed a little bit earlier than Carlos, and I would have loved for Carlos to be able to come back and get some vengeance on that version of Johnny because the way that fight settled was also. If Carlos had two more rounds, he's winning that fight against Johnny.

Exactly. That's where I was going. The way that fight played out in real time, like pride rules Carlos is winning that fight. That's all I'm saying. Carlos Kahn had never lost a fight, by pride rules until Demi and Maya. As far as I'm concerned, he won every pride rules fight.

And again, that's submission. We're not countering that. Agreed. Exactly. So that was the first one that came in mind, but then the other two were really my favorite two. Melvin Manhoove. How did, at no point,

how at no point did we not get Melvin Manhofe versus Carlos Condit? You can't, it's the unstoppable force of the immovable object. Melvin Manhove knocked out Mark Hunt, which to this day remains one of the most incredible things I've ever seen, because, like, I just didn't know that it was possible for a functional middleway to knockout Marcotte or for anyone to mark out knockout. Melvin fought it Welterway, too.

Like, there was, that would have been the most spectacular explosion of violence for however long that lasted. And it would have just been great. Like, that's strike force matchmaking right there. Like, if Carlos was ever in strike force, that would have been made. He's never fought for the, he's never fought for the. the UFC, right? Melvin, no. That's a shame.

That is a very weird. Very weird little career. He's fought for everybody. We'll talk about another guy who's going to make it into this year, Hall of Fame. I was going to say, when we're on like episode 76 and running out of fighters and do, I'm really excited

for the Melvin Manhofe episode. Oh, he's coming in way earlier. That man is action all day. And then the last one for me, and this will probably be my winner, actually, of all of it, is Anderson Silva because there was a moment where it could have happened. Anderson Silva was in that rubble in the rock tournament.

Anderson Silva wins against Huchinaw Kami, but doesn't actually win because he gets DQed. Anderson Silva would have then gone on to fight Jake Shields in the semis. If he beats Jake Shields, it's Carlos versus Anderson in the finals. Before we know either of them. Before we know either of them. And like that's pre-UFC Silva. That's pre-UFC Condit.

Like that would have just been such a crazy point in time to look. look back on right now and be like, dude, young Carlos fought young Anderson and let's go watch that fight on YouTube. Like, I wish that existed. So that's my win. I love that answer. A.K., can you beat it? I'm amazed we had like no overlap here.

So one of them, well, when Shaheen started his answer and said rematch, I thought, Loller 2. I thought that's like the lock. I thought like that's the one we all wanted to see if we're going outside the parameters of like a fight. You're not wrong. Yeah. We all want to see that one again, right?

Like what a shame that, again, we're talking about the later stages of his career, that it never, this was, this came up a lot on Mike and I, our matchmaking show onto the next one. This came up a lot. Everyone's just saying, can they just book Condent and Lawler again? I mean, obviously they're both past their best before date, but it's still be a great like three-rounder or even a fight night main event. Like, you've been so much fun to watch. Just to have the feeling like Carlos Conno would have a chance to get that one back. I know it's not the same thing, but it's a shame it didn't happen. The other one is just weirdly specific.

I don't think it's anyone's dreams fight, but I have this thing, like I keep thinking this fight happened and it didn't. Him and Tim means, they're both New Mexico guys. It's never even been booked. I don't know why. In my mind, I swear,

I thought it had been booked. It had, like, fallen through, has never been booked. I think they've probably trained together. I know they're not friends because they have talked about potentially fighting each other before, but this is the fact that they're both from the same area.

Like, how do they not fight? I know they're kind of different ages, but they didn't fight before the UFC. It somehow never made sense to match them up during this weird losing streak of the event. This is another one that came up on our matchmaking show a lot. I always assumed him and Tim Means were going to fight at some point. Somehow that one just didn't materialize, despite again, being from the same area, same style, same weight class forever. So that to me was just a strange one that I would assume would have happened.

And I bet if you ask a lot of people, there's like a Mandela effect that they fought. And they just never fought. I know why they didn't fight. There's actually a reason. and it's because we talked about Carlos Condit, natural-born killer is a perfect nickname. Tim the Dirty Bird Means. No man has ever looked more like a dirty bird than Tim Means.

And you can't put a man as handsome as Carlos Condit on a poster against Tim Means. It's unfair to Tim Means and so that the UFC could just never book that fight because he's just far too handsome to fight the dirty bird. Wow. Tim Means is not. Come on. Tim Means, if you're out there, you're not a bad-looking guy. right i mean you chose the name dirty bird i did not um uh we'll cut we'll go on uh to to the next category here the phil baroni i'm the best ever award uh what is really simple what it what's the

peak of condit's career i have my exact i i no question for me there's one very right answer but i would love to hear you guys argue if if you have different ones so i want you to lead off in case you're wrong, AK, we'll start with you. I mean, I think we kind of discussed today earlier. I think the Hardy Kim Diaz run before GSB. I mean, that was like the one that answered all the doubts, that this guy is a world champion level fighter. You could throw the Rory fight in there in Juwam,

but like we said, I think if you'll watch the Rory fight of anything, that looked like for the longest time, like, oh, this guy is not a UFC champion level fighter, and then he gets the finish. I said, oh, that's another rematch, a weird one that we never got, but was always talked about. And then the Dan Hardy, yeah, you know, you could argue it could have gone either way. And then, you know, we had the Rocky, the ending of Rocky frozen moment where they both throw the punch simultaneously and kind of just happened to land.

But like I said, hey, that was a great knockout, whatever. Hey, maybe Hardy would have knocked him out if things have been a fraction of an angle. Yeah, true. Hey, he was never actually not. Zero knockout losses outside of the injury, right? And then Don, Don, Don, Don, Hong Kim, you want to talk about beating a wrestler. I mean, Donovan Kim was an amazing grappler. How is that knockout not been mentioned once on this podcast?

That knockout is... It's so sick. Fucking insane. I was shocked it didn't make the Mount Rushmore. I know. Which really is a testament to Conditz's the... His uvra, you know? The burst of violence in those few seconds of that sequence is just unreal.

And listen, that guy's a wrestler. That guy's a wrestler. He beat a wrestler. I'm not saying he didn't outgraple him, but he beat a wrestler. And then at the Nick Diaz fight, the controversial Nick Diaz fight. So that whole run up until GSP, I think, A, he is, he will go down as a U. C champion, not undisputed, not undisputed, but he's an interim title holder. You can't take that away.

He's got a big shiny belt in a trophy case somewhere. Yeah, I think that's the obvious answer. So maybe too obvious. I don't know what you guys are thinking. Sean? Yeah, I mean, I think I have to side with AK here. That feels like the right answer. I think you could certainly make a case for the two-fight run in 2015-16,

where he crushes Tiago Alves with a fury and then, you know, the Robbie Lawler fight right afterwards. I think there's a case to be made there, but obviously he lost that fight, ultimately. So for me, I did default to that three-fight run, the Dan Hardy, Dong-Young-Kim, Stung-Gun-Kim, and then Nick Diaz just, he wins the interim title. It's kind of the real title at that point, because GSP, we didn't know how long he was going to be out. How dare you? Obviously, still held the belt. But, I mean, then going into the George fight, as we said, gave George the biggest scare that he had at that point in his career, or at least

in that particular title run. So for me, it was that three fights, Hardy, Stung-Gum, and then Nick Diaz. I think you guys are mostly right, whereas that's going up the mountain. But the very tippy top, the peak, the absolute zenith of his career, was when his shin hit George St. Pierre's head. And there was a 90-second window where he was going to be the unresputed best fighter alive. Because, Sean, you talked about earlier, I remember watching that fight. I remember losing my mind thinking that he had somehow done it, the most improbable. thing in the world as far as I was concerned it happened there's never been a moment beyond that

where I that was it was like oh my he's done it he's he is Matt sarah George St. Pierre and it was awesome that to me is his peak right there. Uh rab we only have a couple more because we've been taking some time here. Uh alternate universe award so kind of just what are the biggest what ifs here we've touched on some of these for me the the biggest one. there it's really a twofold it's the same thing it's what if gsp stayed down and or what if the judges didn't suck with the robbie luller fight because that's it okay i know you think that it's not a robbery the fact that he lost is a robbery if you want to give robbie luller a draw for that fifth round i think it's wrong but i accept it but robbie luller did not win that fight he at best

kept it even. It's money. It's those two. It has to be those two, because those two points in Carlos' career are the two biggest crossroads where if either one of them

goes the other way, I think he's looked at in such a different regard by so many different people who weren't around for all of this. I have one weird one. Is it what if he could wrestle because that's my other one?

Yeah, that's pretty broad. And this, I don't know, this probably just ends up being a road like a road bump in both guys' careers, but what if he hadn't got injured against Woodley. I do wonder, because I certainly had picked him to beat Woodley. And credit to Woodley, you know, it was a freak injury, but he did kind of, it was off of Woodley, like, take down attempt and or off, you know, he caught like a light kick, something

like that. So it's not like it was completely freakish. Woodley certainly took credit for it after, you know, I know he when he was asked about that fight, he's kind of like, hey, look, I pushed the pace and whatever, whatever, and I took him down, he went down, he got hurt while he was going down. And that's more than fair. But I do wonder how much an injury like that, again, just sort of affects his overall arc after. I mean, yeah, the Robbie Loller fight it was after that, Tiago Aubes. There's still many great times. Woodley, even if he loses that fight,

probably still goes on to become, to fight for a title. I mean, I don't think a loss to Carlos Conantt like derails him, but it does, it is this kind of forgotten moment in both guys' careers. Very much. Yeah, that wouldly beat him, and it was an injury.

And that's another one I would have liked to have seen run back someday, but obviously that wasn't to be. So, yeah, that's a weird one for me. I always wondered if they just managed to go to three rounds, if Condit would have been able to win a decision or just finish him and, and how that would affect both guys going forward. But maybe just a minor hurdle there.

Yeah, I think ultimately, Woodley probably gets back, right, just because he was so dominant for his little stretch. But it's a great, great point, very sliding doors moment. We've hinted at this a lot. The Keith Jardine Award for, what actor should play this handsome man in a life story? It took me a while to come up with one here.

I have two. But one is really the one that I think. And it's another very handsome man, rugged, cowboy-esque. Give me Scott Eastwood to play Carlos Condit in the Carlos Condit story. Wow. Okay. Wow. Go it dipped into the Fast and Furious well, my friend.

Everyone's in the Fast and the Furious universe. Carlos Condit might actually be in the Fast and the Furious universe. We know Francis Ganu is, Ronda Rousey, Gina Crotto. Do you all have anyone? that you think should play Carlos Condit in his life story. I went like these weird deep cuts because, yeah, it's funny. First of all, it kind of depends what part of how much of your life you're telling, right? Because that's a pretty long career.

So I guess you want to get someone in their late 20s, early 30s, unless you're going to go with two actors, you have someone playing like a younger car. So you need some, it's hard, but it's Hollywood, you know, you can, so I went with young. I went young and then if you're going to go all the way up to sort of the later part of his career. But I guess the GSP fight in the deal, he was still in this late 20. He wasn't even 30 yet, right? I'm like 28, 29 years old.

Yeah, he's like 37 now. Okay, so you can get a young 20. He's a young man. So anyone listening, go to your Google machines. You're going to look some of these names up probably, but you wouldn't recognize these faces. I'm going with some British actors. I'm going for the transformation.

I'm going for like the Oscar hunting. Like I put on 20 pounds to play this role kind of guy. I got a jujitsu, you know, belt. I got my purple belt or a white belt and jujit, whatever. So this is going to sound crazy. Okay, the kid who played Tom and Barathexie. in cable thrones. And he was in 1917 as well.

This kid named Dean Charles Chapman. I feel like he's got some baby fat, but I think you get him in the gym. He can kind of grow into the role. He's in his early 20s. Finn Whitehead is another English actor. He was in Dunkirk. Oh, that's not... He looks a little English, but that's not a bad.

Bander Snatch. He was the Bandersnatch guy. If you saw that, the Black Mirror Bandersnatch kid. So I like him. Again, good. I just want to see, like, these British actors take this stuff really seriously. really seriously. They would transform. And then there's some kid named Owen Teague, who was another episode of Black Mirror called Archangel. I'm a big Black Mirror fan. So I should have did one of the Fast and Furious well. So skinny and you would be great at this

category, AK. I don't know. I wish I'd come up with something more obvious. I don't know. I wish I'd come up with something more obvious, but. Sean, I bet you don't have as deep a cut as AK did. I had to go deep. Well, I mean, he went completely off the board, but I feel like I have the right one. Okay. Okay. So you sent me over the rubric for all of this. my knee-jerk reaction when I saw this category was Keanu Reeves. But I don't know that that matches up in a way that I like it. You're not wrong. And he can fight.

Yeah, like that feels like it's okay. My only, my only concern is that Keanu Reeves is like 20 years older than Carlson. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm getting like young Keanu. Sure, sure. But I was thinking about it and I actually think I have a better answer than Keanu Reeves. Oh, okay. The man who starred.

as the best Punisher we've ever had. John Bernthal. John Bernthal would be a tremendous Carlos Condit. He's gritty. He's got the voice. He's got the attitude. Looks tough. Like, I think that might be my pick.

I love John Bernthal. He's so good. He's so good. He's so good. He's great in everything. He's one of those guys, he's a ceiling razor. You put him in a movie or a show. He just makes it better.

He's fantastic. He always makes it better. He's definitely not bad. That's not a bad. I think I think young Keanu is actually probably the best. Oh, yeah. That's ideal if you could get a time machine. But you know what's funny is I think Carl's Cond is better looking than John Berndall.

Oh, yeah, for sure. And that's the only issue. Sure. John Berndtall looks more rugged than Carl's Condon. It's very, but no, Bernthal is certainly not a bad choice. I like you so good. It's a well done, voice. I knew I knew I could count on you guys.

Hollywood. Hollywood. Call us. We got options. We've only got. two left. This one, this is the award I had the most difficult time with. It is the Cole Conrad career change. Cole Conrad famously Bellatory Heavyweight who decided to go sell milk instead of be a professional fighter. Always a wise choice when you can make it. If you can sell milk instead of be a

professional fighter, you should sell that milk. So what, if Carlos Conrad was not a fighter, what would he do? This is the one I struggled the most with because nothing just jumped out. of me. The thing I settled on is he currently owns and operates like a coffee shop. And as I thought more about it, it kind of fit him. Because like, I've never met

a barista who's like mad. And Carlos Conn has always been the most even keeled level dude outside of the cage. He obviously turns into the natural born killer inside. But even when he was fighting, it's not like he fought angry. He just fought like the idea

of not doing something. was like hurt his soul, but he didn't fight, like he didn't throw everything into his punches. So that sort of fits for me, but I, I am happy if you guys can, can sell me on something a little better here. I kind of, I kind of went along, yeah, I kind of went along those same lines, but I took it a step further. I took it a step further. I don't think he would be just a simple barista.

I was watching as I, you know, like I said, I studied Jehien's article. And I also watched a lovely video done by, great, great video. Yes, E. Casey Leiden and Esther Lynn. Breakfast with Carlos Kahn, if you will. That's on YouTube, please. Look that up if you haven't seen it. It's a wonderful. It's like 10 minutes long, 10, 12 minutes long.

Such a wonderful video. And yeah, he talks about his growing coffee business and all that. But you kind of get a good sense of his demeanor. And I feel like if he had to, I know he's a humble guy. And I know before I was saying like, oh, he doesn't have like the best mic skills. But it's not like he's, if you just see him doing interviews in like an intimate setting, like he's a pretty charming, likeable guy. I think he could be a celebrity chef.

I think he could be a celebrity chef Not in like the Gordon Ramsey loud, boisterous way And not in the I don't know how you even describe him Guy Fierry way But like a you know He would still have to have some sort of background as a fighter You know he would be known as like the martial artist A celebrity chef guy

Didn't isn't Dustin Poyer like trying to make a show about cooking I think so so I'm saying And I think Carl's kind of could have beaten him to it In this alternate reality where he for some reason He's not a fighter handsome than Porier, who's not an ugly man. He would have his own show on the food network, and it would be called the natural-born griller.

Nice. I knew exactly. Yeah, I knew where that pun was going to go, and I'm happy you went there. But yeah, you dunked it. Way to go. I don't hate it. You know, I would really like to see NBCK on like chopped. NBC.

NBC. Will that competitiveness come out? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Pageman Sant went on chopped. We can't get MBK. She won. She won.

She won. Get one. Throat's kitchen. So I like the barista idea. That's probably the leader of my club list right now. I struggled a lot with this one. But for some reason, I just kept coming back to this one idea. And I don't know if it makes any sense outside of just within my own head.

But to me, I could really see Carlos being sort of a, this might be a movie that's too old for, like, some of our viewership. But like, I can really see him being like a Peter Gibbons from office space where he's just like kind of in this nine to five job doing this same thing every day working on these TPS reports, hating it, hating life, crushing pads at night to get his aggression out. And they're just wishing, you know, just like he smashes up the fax machine doing that type of thing to get some aggression out. And just sort of walking through life really just like, God, I wish I had some kind of outlet for all of this. Like I could see something like that. If only someone would mix the martial arts. Sean, I love that answer because the first thing before I also watched the video with with our own E.K. Slide and Esther, the first thing I had was just like, I don't know, like a banker. He seemed like he could just be like a banker.

He's a normal guy in an office. Yeah. So I totally get that vibe. And apparently he like, that seems right because he talked about that in that video about how he was doing like, medical device sales, like while he was still a UFC fighter. So I'm in. That might actually be the right answer, but how do you say no to Natural Born Griller? That's just money.

It's so very possible. Somebody call Carlos as people and let him know that we've got an idea. All right, boys, we are at the end. Time to close it down. Final category. And it's really simple. It's the legacy. what does Carlos Condit mean to you?

What is what is kind of the thing that you think about when you think about Carlos Condit? Sean, we'll start with you. Sure. I mean, I think a lot of this we've hit on just throughout this episode, but to me, I mean, this is going back to what I said at the very beginning,

which is just to me he feels like he belongs to a moment in time that isn't coming back, something that will never be replicated just generally across sports, like whatever that early era of MMA, it was so different, it was so unique to anything else that it ever happened, and it was such its own thing. It was the Wild Wild West, it was Cowboy Town, and Carlos Condit fit so perfectly into that mold, into that era, into that, whatever that aesthetic is, just everything about it.

All violence first team are, as I said at the top, and just also, like, we haven't talked a lot about this at all throughout the show, but just like a genuinely good dude. Just like one of the nicest guys in the sport. Nobody has a bad thing to say about him. Yeah. You will not find anybody in the sport outside of maybe Nick Diaz who has a bad word to say about this man. Like even George, George St. Pierre, whenever you ask him about his greatest fights, things like that, he will always bring up Carlos either first or second because he just has such immense respect for him. And to me, that is what Carlos represents. He's one of the greatest welter weights to ever do this sport. And he just, I don't think he would be on a lot of people's list if they put together a top five

welter weights or things like that but he certainly belongs there and again i think this is m ms is so bad at remembering its history and in celebrating its history it's such a what have you done for me lately sport new generations of fans come every couple years and it resets all over again carlos condott is one of a kind uh and to me he's one of the just most fun fighters to ever watch you could throw on any random carlos condate fight and you have a 90% chance of just turning it on an absolute banger and that to me like that That is all it takes to have a successful career in my eyes in this sport. AK.

I mean, that's perfectly sundown up. I'll just add, listen, this guy, one half of what I think, the greatest fight in MMA history, one half of the greatest image in MMA history, one that will hopefully be hanging up on your wall someday, Jed Mishu, some frames. Him and Robbie just hanging on that fence is, I mean, look, we're, you know, we work in the industry.

I don't think we're so jaded. that we don't feel things when we watch M.M.A. anymore, but there's so many cars. We watch, I don't even, I can't even say how many fights we have to, we watch every year as part of our job, hundreds, right? Literally hundreds. And if you were growing up and someone said you were, you know, watching fights for a living and, and eventually would become sort of numb to two human beings fighting each other, you'd think that's insane. But to some degree, that's, that's where we are just because it's, you know, oversaturation and just being around for too long. That moment, when it happened is if you didn't feel something,

Not even as a fight fan. I think if you just watch sports. If you, you don't have to be a sports fan. I think if you witnessed the last round, any part of that fight, and you saw that scene, you would feel something. I don't know, maybe something good, something bad, but to know that two human beings could actually do that. And it's the cliche, leave it all in there. No one has ever, no two fighters have ever left it all more in there than Carl's Conda and Robbie Lawler.

And so much of this show that we did just now was talking about, like his, defeats, but man, in defeat, I don't know if anyone has been more glorious than Carlos Kondit. And those defeats don't define him, but to have these incredible success and incredible highlights and have your defeats just be some of the best moments in that mystery. I mean, that's special. And I don't know who else can say that. Yeah, man, you guys have both nailed it. To me, the first, the big thing I think about is that fight with Robbie Lawler.

It's my favorite fight of all time. You said AK, you said something that was really great about leaving it all in there. And the truth is they left more, they left more than anyone has ever left in a fight. They left. We talk about that. Like together. Exactly. We talk about that cliche all the time.

But they, they left pieces of themselves. And you can see it in the aftermath. No, neither man was the same after that fight. And it's, it's like the biggest boxing fights in history. It's, it is like Frazier Ali three, you know, like they, neither man was willing to give an inch and they both lost something really valuable, you know, frankly to their lives, but gave us something even more valuable. It's, it is the, the fight by which all other fights are judged to me. Like any other fight, you know, Sean, we were at Israel Adisina versus Kelvin Aslam. And that fight is probably, you know, my top five fights.

of all time and watching that cage side was unbelievable right after porreye hall right yeah but also an incredible fight um it was but even afterwards after watching that fire i was like that is i don't feel these feelings a lot and it still wasn't it still just wasn't quite there to to to what laller and cond it gave us and so for me that's that's the big one and then sean i think the other thing that we didn't talk enough on this podcast about was just how great a guy he was nobody says a bad universally respected outside of as an individual but as a competitor. I mean, when George St. Pierre did his Hall of Fame speech, he said one of the moments, maybe it was the moment that he was most proud of was that he overcame, you know,

he overcame the head kick from Condit. Like that was, that's the moment he looks back as the thing that is the most proud to him, the greatest fighter of all time. And when the goat is saying that about you, you did something damn right in your career. And so that's it for me. It's the respect he gained from his peers, and it's that fight against Robbie Lawler. It's everything you want in this sport. It is the reason I wanted to do a podcast like this in the first place.

And I'm really excited that we got to do it, and that you boys were along for the ride. So I've had a lot of fun, gentlemen. I've enjoyed this a great deal. One quick addendum to what you're saying, because I think everything, you said about law their condit and everything we've said over the last couple hours right on the money just in terms of importance and value and all that but in terms of how much they left in the cage of themselves for that fight if you i was doing so quick bath in my head so my math could be off so don't hold me to this but if you combine their records prior to that fight neither man had been

finished for a combined 15 years and both lost in two minutes in the following fight right after that and that to me says it all of just what a life changing career change momentous fight that was for both guys and again everything you said applies yeah man like that's if they had both retired after that fight i don't think anybody would have blinked an eye i mean like yeah that makes sense and it's that's that's why for me and until we see something else i don't know what it'll take but that's always going to be my top fight of all time and uh you know it's it's It's worthy of that, if nothing else. So, boys, I've had a wonderful time with you guys.

Thank you for coming along on this ride. Thank you all for listening to the inaugural episode of this podcast. And we will be back very soon with our next one. So until then, for Sean, for AK, for myself, have a good one.