MMA Fighting - DAMN! They Were Good | Daniel Cormier's Place In The All-Time MMA Pantheon

Episode Date: August 18, 2022

DAMN! They Were Good celebrates the careers of the most exciting and influential fighters in MMA history and this episode we are covering the career of UFC Hall of Famer and two-time Olympian, Daniel Cormier. Cormier entered MMA after a distinguished freestyle wrestling career and had almost immediate success, winning the Strikeforce Heavyweight Grand Prix in just his third year of fighting. Cormier then transitioned to the UFC and dropped down to 205 pounds, where his real Hall of Fame run began, eventually winning the light heavyweight title, before returning to heavyweight to win his second UFC belt, becoming only the second person ever two hold two titles simultaneously in the UFC. And of course, through it all there was his rivalry with Jon Jones. Follow Jed Meshew @JedKMeshew Follow Shaun Al-Shatti @ShaunAlShatti Follow Damon Martin @DamonMartin Subscribe: http://goo.gl/dYpsgH Check out our full video catalog: http://goo.gl/u8VvLi Visit our playlists: http://goo.gl/eFhsvM Like MMAF on Facebook: http://goo.gl/uhdg7Z Follow on Twitter: http://goo.gl/nOATUI Read More: http://www.mmafighting.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. And welcome to another episode of Damn, they were good. I am your host, Jedmishu. I'm a writer for MMAfighting.com, the greatest website in the whole wide world. And this week, we are going to be talking about a man who is retired from competition, but still very much involved in our weekly MMA lives. UFC Hall of Famer Daniel Cormier. Before we get into all things, D.C., though, let me introduce the panel today,

joining me from MMAFighty.com, great website. Or my colleagues, Ms. Sean Oshaddy, Mr. Damon Martin, gentlemen. Thanks for coming today. How we live in. Of course. Thanks for having us. Doing well, man. I know this is going to come out later, but I don't be a dad. in like 24 hours. So this is pretty crazy right now.

I'm like in the weirdest form of pending. So I'm doing great. This is a great distraction. It's befitting that we're talking about the dad as man on the planet then. It really, it really does work that way. So plus we were talking before we hit record. I think you're going to have some really good stories for us based on some other stuff.

So glad to get you in under the wire before you get on baby duty for the next however long 18 years. I'm not really sure how long. long babies take, but I think 18 years is the standard. I think it's like an indefinite thing more or less from now on, right? Yeah, it's kind of just part of my life. Just sort of part of your life moving forward. So, all right, Daniel Cormier, we're doing this one for a very specific reason because Daniel Cormier is officially retired Hall of Fame.

Dad is man on the planet. You're going to be a dad. All of these fun things. But we are at the two-year-end. anniversary of his retirement. Today, we're recording on Monday, August 15th. This was D.C.'s last fight against Steve Amiciich at UFC 252, hung up the gloves, came up short UD that questionable, questionable things happened in that fight, and we can talk

about it at the time. But before we get into that, I want to start our conversation here. Where do you gentlemen have Daniel Cormier in your all-time fighter list? Is he a top 10 guy? I think he's probably top 20 in anybody's list. But is he a top 10 all-time fighter? I would say yes. I think that's pretty inarguable to me.

He feels like a top 10 pound-for-pound fighter in the history of the sports. Just if you can look at what he did over a very, very short time span. But also second best light heavyweight ever, right? I think that's pretty unarguable. I would say top three. I think that's arguable. Do you? See, I'll be my next question.

We can get into it. We can take, we can get into that because I think that's very arguable, but please continue. Okay, that's fair. I would say second best light heavyweight ever, top three to five in terms of heavyweight, maybe closer to five than three just because he didn't really have the reps there that he did at light heavyweight. And I would say also just one of the best personalities in the sport, right? Like he's generally just one of the most lovable guys we got. but just in terms of top pound for pounds in the history sport,

I would put him top 10, I would say. Because all of this, frankly, is so improbable. Like, his first pro fight came at age 30. Like, the legacy that he built is really purely built in sort of the latter stages of his athletic career. And we didn't really actually ever see, like, a peak, DC of what that would have been like, of DC at his athletic peak being like, you know, 184 in wrestling or like 205, like in the world stage, like around 200 and just beasting on fools.

Like we saw sort of like a post-prime DC, and that's pretty crazy. Yeah, I concur with that, but I want to get Damon's take here because you and I already maybe have some friction here. So, Damon, where do you come down for DC as an all-time fighter? Boy, it's a tough question to answer because part of me says top 10 fits, but I think maybe top 15 fits better. Only because, again, I think like where Daniel Cormier succeeded, he was a two-division champion, which is a very, very rare feet in our sport, and he beat really good people to get there, of course. You know, at the time beating Anthony Rumble Johnson a couple of times, beating a guy like Alexander Gustafson when Gustafson was still in his prime, beating Steepie Miochich, who was

arguably the greatest heavyweight of all time, you know, so, I mean, those are marquee, big name wins. On the other side, he was never fully committed to a weight class. He spent half his career heavyweight, half his career heavyweight, half his career light heavyweight, and I think that kind of prevented him from building those kind of all-time records in one division or another. and in light heavyweight in particular he always had John Jones in front of him and obviously had a loss and then another loss that eventually got overturned but you know again two

pretty definitive fights with John Jones and and I think in terms like the all-time greatest of light heavyweight John Jones is number one number two number three you know Chuck Liddell you got to put him in that conversation I think for all the things he did in light heavyweight so yeah I would say top 10 top 15 it's hard for me to just nail it down to just top 10 because then you're starting to talk about guys like George Stenviere. You're looking at what Kamar Usman's doing right now. You're looking at Fedor Emilianenko, Steepa, you're looking at, you know, I mean, you're not going to go to the list, but that top 10 is tough to crack.

So I say top 10, top 15. See, I think that's, I haven't actually parsed it out, but I think I'm with you in that, just because like top 10 sounds like this big number. And if you have DC in it, I'm not totally opposed to that. but like anyone's top 10 has to include John Jones, George St. Pierre, Demetius Johnson, Anderson, Silva, Jose Aldo. If it doesn't have those five in it, I think that it is like objectively a totally invalid list of top 10 fighters all time. So there's only five spaces for, I mean, Kamar Usman, as you mentioned, coming up there. Give Izzy a couple more years if he's doing this. He's in the conversation.

If we're adding women into it, Noon's and Shevchenko probably. already have to be in the top 10 fighters if you're doing cross-gender. So there's 10 feels like a lot of numbers, but there's not a lot of space. And I also think that's not giving credit to, I don't know, Dan Henderson's career is unbelievable. Like, his career is absolutely insane. And it spans so much longer. And it's really tough for me to pin him down.

And it's one of the first questions I always think about with Kormier because there was a time not that long ago, given when he was the heavyweight champion, where there was kind of conversations about him as an all-time great, and is he maybe the should have been the best heavyweight of all time, and where does he rank in this? And then I think some of that mellowed a bit with the two losses to Stepe, but had he retired after colding Stepe and winning a belt that is entirely untainted by the specter of John Jones, his career, and we're going to get into that later, certainly as well, his career could have been very much in this conversation of, okay, he's of rock solid top 10.

And I'm not sure that that actually bears out on the merits. And so it always just makes me think because let's get into it. Let's get into it now, Sheehan. I'm not sure he's the second greatest light heavyweight of all time. Sell me. Sell me that he's the number two because you seem pretty confident in that. I'd actually like to hear the opposite. I'd like to hear your argument for why he's not.

Because to me, it's always felt like pretty much a given that if you put him in any era of 205 ever, whether it's now 10 years before. 15 years before, he's going to dominate unless a man named John Jones is there. Like, I don't know that I can pick another light heavyweight in the history of this sport, who I would favor over a prime DC. So I would love to hear your argument otherwise. Well, I don't, I can't do that, that sort of, it doesn't work like that in my head just because I think that's true of literally any current champion versus any past champion.

Like, I just, the sport has improved leaps and bounds over the years. And I will wait. So you would pick Yuri Prathaska over Prime DC because I definitely wouldn't? Okay, maybe that's not true for light heavyweight then. Though I'm not sure. Yeri is still so new into it. I need to see a little bit more from him as the UFC champion. But I'm not opposed to it because I think I'd probably pick D.C.

But Yeri is a super violent dude. and Alexander Gustafson almost need Cormier's face off. So, like, it's not impossible that you could have won. So that's an interesting take, but it's just like, if I look at Charles Oliver, Charles Oliver beats the absolute hell out of Frankie Edgar or to my great eternal sadness, BJ Penn. Like, that's new is largely better in athletic endeavors and certainly in this sport, which is so young and things are growing, that it's not fair to compare Frank Shamrock in,

1998 to Daniel Cormier, like that's really difficult. You can only compare them against the people in the time they were facing. And I'm not opposed to the argument that D.C. is number two. But a big part of the problem I think I have with it is just that I believe Daniel Cormier was a legitimate 205 pound champion because John Jones did not deserve it because John Jones screwed the pooch enormously, repeatedly over and over again. And so DC is a justified champion. But at no point during his championship run at 205 was he the best light heavyweight in the world. And so it's really tough for me to weigh that against somebody like Chuck L.

or Tito Ortiz or even though it's a little easier just because of how long ago it was and how new the sport was, Frank Shamrock, who when Frank Shamrock retired, he was arguably the best fighter in the sport pound for pound. Like he, he was that dude. So it's really tough for me to say DC's three title defenses at 205. And maybe I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth here, but like, I don't know, the Gustafson and Johnson great wins. When one of those title defenses is Volcano Samir, it's like, all right, well, it's not like he was just beating all of the great fighters of all time, whereas, you know, look at John Jones's resume. So I'm not opposed to it, but Damon, what, Damon, how do you feel? Do you think DC is the second greatest light heavyweight ever?

You know, sitting here and you guys talk about it makes me question my judgment a little bit, because when you start naming some of the, and one name you did mention who I think has to be in that top five list is Mauricio Shogunhua, when you think about what he did at Pride, you know, and then granted he didn't have the greatest UFC run, but he was champion, you know, and you think about the legacy put together in pride, the win over, you know, Rampage. He was always kind of playing second fiddle a little bit to Vanderlay, but he still had an incredible record in pride. And when you think about that guy did over there, and then coming over and getting some

very big wins in the UFC and becoming champion, I think Shogun has to be in that conversation as well, you know, with Chuck Ludell as far as being maybe number two, number three. So, yeah, it's hard. Like, I think talent-wise, Daniel Cormier is number two. I think that's where I come from, yeah. Yeah, I think talent-wise, number two, without a doubt. He was the only guy that was ever superior to him was John Jones, and I consider John Jones the greatest mixed martial artist in the history of the sport.

The accomplishments is where it starts coming up a little bit short, because, again, when you compare his resume in terms of big marquee wins and accomplishments to Chuck Liddell during his heyday, during his greatest run, when you talk about Shogun, you know, when you think about his biggest wins, his greatest run, it's hard because you think about the biggest marquee wins on D.C.'s record, you got Gustafson, which is a great win. And I think the wins over Rumble Johnson at the time when Rumble Johnson fought him, because Rumble was knocking out everybody else he fought, I think those are legitimate

wins. But, you know, Vulcan Osdemeer, yeah, I don't think time has reflected well on that particular win, you know, beating up Dan Henderson when he did. Dan Henderson was never really a legitimate light heavyweight. Great. I mean, all time great. Absolutely all time great. But he was never a, you know, never a full-fledged light heavyweight, even considering

you. Prime middleweight champion, Dan Henderson, please. Dan Henderson was one of those guys who was like, if there was a 190-pound weight division, I think Dan Henderson would have ruled the world, 190, 190-95 pounds, you know what I mean? Anyways, you know,

you think about, again, great wins, but when you start stacking them up against other people's great wins, you say, well, maybe not. So that's the tough one. Talent-wise, absolutely number two. Accomplishment-wise, that's where he might fall down the list a little bit.

So I think one, I think you've nailed it with Shogun, and I've changed. my mind. As, as you were talking through it, I'm with you. I think, Sean, I think you've convinced me, mainly for the simple reason that we're going to get into a lot with DC. I think if he had stayed at 205, he probably could have put together a better run, especially in a world where John Jones doesn't exist. And Damon, when you were just talking through it, I think Shogun is actually my number three just because really at no point during Chuck's run, even though Chuck was

Chuck and a huge star, he was never better than Quentin Rampage Jackson, and Rampage proved it twice. And so it's even though he has, you know, more title defenses than D.C., I think I'm now willing to acknowledge that Daniel Cormier is probably the second greatest light heavyweight of all time. But I think there's a case for Shogun, and I'll even say it, I still think there's a case for Frank Shamrock, even though I think the weight class was only 200 pounds at the time. and, you know, it's a very different era thing. But he's at least in the conversation, if nothing else. And if you're one of those people who think steroids invalidates anything that you've

ever done in your career, then he, I guess, has a real case to be number one because of John Jones. So, well, we've at least accomplished one thing. You've sold me. You did it, Shaheen good work. Here's my next question on this, which I think maybe try. riding on some of the later categories. But the far more interesting case to me is less about him as a light heavyweight than where is Daniel Cormier rank as an all-time heavyweight? And

because I agree what we said on light heavyweight. D.C., I think it's certainly the second most talented light heavyweight of all time. I think there's a really good argument. He's the most talented heavyweight of all time. And the way it all worked out, he didn't prove it. So, Sean, where do you, where do you come down? I think you said top five earlier. Where do you think in the top five? Yeah, that to me is the more interesting argument when you look at DC just in a historical fashion because there's a lot he left on the table, right? Like in a way, he is the most selfless heavyweight ever by sort of giving away everything that he gave away because he came to the sport and he very easily could have just said, you know, I understand Kane that you and I are teammates,

but this is my livelihood. He could have John Joe, Rashad Evans did him? Yeah, like this is my livelihood. Like I'm trying to be champion. I haven't been champion of anything I've done. Like I'm trying to be champion and this is my time. He didn't do that. Like he was the one that went out of his way to sort of be the take the high road there and cut down to 205 and really change the trajectory of his career and specifically go

in the division that John Jones exists in. Because I think there's a very real like timeline out there where DC becomes this very decorated all-time heavyweight champion. because if you look at the guy who was fighting Josh Barnett in Strikeforce, who was knocking out Bigfoot Silver, who was just generally like this incredibly talented and decorated and accomplished heavyweight, I don't know that many heavyweights of that era would have stood up against it. Like, if he had not messed with his weight so much and really like, I know we point to the steep A losses and people will be like, oh, well, D.C. lost twice to Steve. DC was like 40 years old when those fights happened. I don't really count those latter two State Bay fights that badly against his resume. especially the third one because he was like 41 at that point.

And that second Steepai fight, he was very much ahead until all of a sudden DC, or Stepe figured out you could sort of hit the body on this guy. And I was like midway through that fight. Like there is so many different what ifs when it comes to DC just at heavyweight where like this guy had the potential to be the greatest heavyweight of all time. He didn't end up getting to that spot. But to me,

I feel comfortable putting him in that top five just on what he did do, wins over Steepay, Barnett and a couple others, Derek Lewis, but also just in terms of pure talent, like he's probably a top three heavyweight just in terms of pure talent of like if you put the best version of a heavyweight DC against any other best version

of any other heavyweight, I think it would be really difficult to find three guys that would beat him. Oh, I think he is probably the most talented heavyweight of all time. Also, just because you said it and I have this written down but don't really have a great way to put it anywhere,

I just want to note, he did knock out Antonio Bigfoot, Silva. And those of you knew to M. May might be like, well, so does everyone. Dana Corby was actually the first dude to do it. He's not the first because I think Sal Palali did it, like way back, way, way back in the day. But like, sort of bigfoot was a good fighter and DC trucked him and then sort of ushered in the end of Antonio Bigfoot Silva as far as that goes. Well, that in the whole TRT thing. But Bigfoot Silva had literally just knocked out Fador. Like, that was the best Bigfoot Silva we had ever seen. He just knocked out Fadour. He was like,

We ever would see. Yeah. He was looked at in a very different way than we do not. And D.C. was an alternate. Let's not forget that. Like, he wasn't even in that Grand Prix. He was the alternate in the Grand Prix. He got pulled in and then laid waste to Bigfoot Silva and then, you know, went out there and mall Josh Burnett.

I mean, this is the guy who wasn't supposed to even be in that tournament. So, yeah, it was impressive. 35 to 1 to win that tournament. Greatest. He entered in history. And someone should have made it had I. made it, man. Oh, the stories I could tell. All right. The last thing I want to talk about, Damon, this one is a little bit more for you, frankly, even though, you know, Sean, if you,

if you want to be involved, feel free. Where does Daniel Cormier rank in the wrestlers who have come to MMA conversation all time? And serious wrestlers. I know Dave Schultz fought in one UFC event and as a gold medalist and a multiple time world champion. Like, that's, he didn't really come to MMA. Saunders Township, they didn't really, they dabbled. But D.C. is, I have him in my top five of greatest wrestlers all time who have made the jump to, like, actually seriously compete in MMA. Damon, would you agree with that statement?

Absolutely. And also, like, when you talk about accomplishments, when you just talk about, like, wrestlers, great wrestlers who accomplish things, I think Daniel Cormier probably is number one. And when you think about winning light heavyweight and heavy league gold, that's a pretty big accomplishment. Now, I'm, I love wrestling. I am the wrestling guy. And I think there, there have been better wrestlers to come into Mitch Marshall arts, even if it was for only one fight. I mean, when you look at, uh, you know, when you think about, you know, Henry Sehuto is a great example. Gold medalist, you know, coming in, but Henry Sehudo,

like, even though he's a gold medalist in wrestling, which is an impossibly hard task to do, Henry Sehuto in wrestling terms was a bit of a flash in a pan. I mean, he won gold, but he never wrestling in college. Yeah, he never wrestled in college. He never wrestled extensively internationally, but he was the guy who won the gold medal. So Henry Souda was a weird one because he didn't, like in terms of all-time accomplishments, he didn't do nearly as much internationally and domestically in terms of college wrestling as what a Daniel Cormier did. The problem Daniel Cormier had was in college, he had Kel Sanderson in front of him,

who is arguably the greatest American wrestler ever. And then he went to the Olympics. If he's not, he's, there's maybe two people in front of him. Yeah, I mean, you're talking like, you know, I mean, you're talking like, you know, I mean, you've got to be talking like all time, all time. You know, you're talking, you know, again, Dan Gable, like, you know, you're looking at like, you know, all time list. You know, Cal Sanderson's near the top of that list regardless. And that's kind of like where John Jones was for him in like heavy way.

Like, think about Daniel Cormey at Cal Sanderson in one era and then John Jones and another. Talk about the unluckiest, like, guy in the world in terms of being so talented and having two guys in front of him. But, you know, you think about, you know, you think about other great wrestlers who have come in the sport. I mean, there have been a lot of great wrestlers who have come in, NCAA champions, Olympic gold medalists, Olympic silver, Olympic silver medal, things like that. You know, L. Romero is a great example of a guy who was arguably, you know, beat, you know, Kel Sanderson and was superior to Kel Sanderson in wrestling at certain points. You know, you think about him coming in.

But, yeah, I think when you look at talent, you look at what all D.C. did throughout his collegiate career, throughout his international career, I think he's top five. In terms of accomplishments, probably number one, to be honest, like, as great as Henry Sehudo was and he was a two-division champion, he again, kind of even in his, in his MMA, career. It was a bit of a flash in a pan. He kind of he beat Demetrius Johnson. It's huge win. Obviously, all-time kind of win goes out there. You know, beats becomes bantamweight champion, you know, Starch's, T.J. Dillis. He had that, like, five-fight run, which is an all-time great run, but then he walked away

and retired. And now he's coming back. But, you know, that's like a five to six-fight encapsulated run. DC was doing it for, you know, 10 years. So, yeah, I think he's top five. I mean, there's a lot of great wrestlers who have come in and accomplished a lot in this sport. DC is definitely top five in that. And I think he's maybe number one for accomplishments in terms of great wrestlers who came in and did great things in MMA. So what you're saying is that Henry Suhudo is not the greatest combat sports athlete of all time. That's what it sounds like. Yeah, I am I am saying that, yes.

And I think Henry Sudo is great. Don't get me wrong. But, yeah, he's said, Henry Sudo's got to be one of the weird. That's one for down the road for damn they were good because he's got one of the weird. He's got one of the weirdest. It's very hard to contextualize. Yeah. his whole career is so, so odd.

Sean, did you have anything to add to the freestyle wrestling conversation that Damon and I are having right now? Yeah, no, I think just Damon touched on an interesting point that to me is so important when you contextualize what DC did and who he was and really who he became, which is that like two different times in this guy's life, he was basically in the era of MJ in his sport. Two different times for like his extensive primes in that sport, he was basically the number two guy to maybe the goat of all time. And he just got stuck in the wrong era.

And I think there's so many different opportunities where if DC came up in a different era, we look at him so vastly different because of his level of accomplishment would have just been so different than what it ended up being. But that to me also tells a little bit of the story of Daniel Corby and who this guy actually is. Because no matter what, for most of this guy's life,

he was getting second place. And yet he continued, man. That to me is what is the most important part of DC, which is it goes back to the business. being thinking of just like this guy didn't give up this guy did not give up and he had so many opportunities where he could have given up he had so much actual just personal tragedy go on in his life where like things could have gone differently and he could his whole career could have gone south and he persevered through all of it and found in just like the very late stages of his athletic

life like his late 30s really like basically his 40s found like the ultimate goal the mountain top that he had been looking for for like 20 years and to me that is incredible I always find that type of story, whether it's Bisping or DC or whoever, the person who worked for so long and overcame so much adversity to actually find what they were looking for at the very end, I find that to be so incredible. And that to me is like just such a massive part of who this guy is, which is like, you can say whatever you want about him. We can try to re-contextualize his career in retrospect and however you want.

But like for a minute, this guy was the best in the damn world at a lot of different things. And like you can't take that away from him. And for so long it felt like he would never get there. And to me, that's just very cool. I will also just for the sake of the three people who are listening to this that are deeply ingrained in the freestyle wrestling world. He also was stuck behind not in all-time, all-time great, but Kedzimurat Gatslov was the world champion at 96 kilograms from 0-4 to like 2010, which is the entirety of Dan Cormey's freestyle wrestling career. And that's just it ended up not mattering as much because he would lose sort of before he got to Casmarat a lot. But like he just, he was just that dude who was incredibly good, you know, top one of the five best guys in the world for nearly a decade, but had so few like truly breakout moments.

So let's talk about some of those because we've been going on for quite some time. It's time to get into the categories. Well, before we get into the categories, as always, I'm going to give you a little rundown. If you've been sticking with us this long, stick with us for the rundown, and then we're going to hop into the real meat of the conversation. Because we've touched on it, I'm going to try and keep this really brief because Cormier's whole career has a lot going on to it. But he's a two-time Jucco National Champion. He transferred to Oklahoma State. And as we mentioned, he lost Cail Sanderson in the finals of the 2001 NCAAs.

Cormier is just because I think this is a fun stack. Cormier's wrestling record in the NCAA, 52 and 10, six of his losses came to Kail Sanderson. So to our previous point, really just a real tough blocker for him. After that, D.C. went to the free, went to the senior circuit. He was the U.S. national champion at 96 kilograms from 03 to 08. Two Olympics finished fourth in 2004. Would it had a bronze medal.

Now, if he would be wrestling now, he would have owned a actual bronze medal because they don't wrestle off for the third place anymore. They just give two bronze medals. He would have had one right now. Again, wrong place, wrong time. Would have had one. And that is so much like, they say it all the time that like the worst place to finish in the Olympics is fourth place. And to some extent that maybe why they just give fourth place medals out now. But it's just like, yeah, because you can't say when Bruce Buffer's going, it's not like Daniel Cormier, fourth.

than the 2004, whereas Henry Sehudo is an Olympic gold medalist. Like, that's just how it is. Sabreman is Olympic silver medalist. Matt Lindland's silver medalist. Like, he just sort of got, came up short in that regard. But after the O.A.O.A.O.O.O.N.O.9. He fought a bunch of Strike Force. As we mentioned, he ended up winning the Strike Force Heavyweight Grand Prix,

replacing Alistair over him as an alternate and beating Josh Barnett and Bigfoot, or Bigfoot Silver and then Josh Barnett to win the whole damn thing. made his UFC debut in 2013. A couple of heavyweight fights dropped to 205. Again, as we already touched on, but I don't know if it's best friend, but really good friend Kane Velasquez and training partner was ruling the roost at heavyweight

or in the conversation there, depending on how it broke down time-wise. And so he didn't want to fight him. So he pursued a fight with John Jones. He got that fight. We're going to talk all about John Jones. Lost to John Jones. John Jones implodes.

DC wins his first world championship ever, depending on your view on strike force when he beats Anthony Johnson at UFC 187. Defensive belt a couple of times. John Jones rematch, all that happens. We're going to get into all of it. The last big highlight he goes up, faces Steepin Mietchich, finally pursues the UFC heavyweight title, wins it, Kio Stepe, the second ever simultaneous two-division champ in the UFC history behind Connor, obviously.

And at the time, he was only the fifth two-division. champion overall. He then lost two fights to Mietichich. Retired in 2020 after the second one. But he goes down in history as the first UFC fighter to successfully defend titles in multiple weight classes. And he was also the 2018 fighter of the year. So pretty good career from DC overall, which is why he's in the top 10 conversation of fighters all time. But now it's time to really break that career down. And as always, we're going to start with the mouth. Mount Rushmore. Everyone knows when Mount Rushmore is.

You're picking four fights. How do you break it down? What are the four most pivotal, most career-defining fights, the best examples of his career? I have six that I think are contenders, but this is a category I'm super interested in. Because I think Cormney's career is unique in this way, where I think that there are a lot of really good choices here. Like, I think you could do a lot more than six. And it's not like with Donald Cowboy Soroni, when you just kind of throw a dart because he'd fought so much, but he doesn't have the super career highlights. You just kind of pick whatever is personal or germane to you.

DC has so many highlights, picking the ones that matter to you. I think it's really interesting. So I want to start with one of you instead of me. Sean, why don't you lead us off? Hit me with your Mount Rushmore of Daniel Cormier fights. Sure. This was actually one of the more interesting. I think I've done a couple episodes of this now.

and this was one of the more interesting ones that you've given me to sort of parse down because you're right with DC, it's strange in that like he has so many damn good names on the resume, right? Like there's a lot of different points you can choose from. There's a lot of different options available. I mean, of his last 11 UFC fights, like just generally,

all of them had championships on the line, or at least like we're supposed to, the UFC 200 thing. Like that's a pretty incredible thing in a sport where most of our legends are dragged out on their back, like totally just unconscious and DC was like in his swan song fighting against someone who might be the heavyweight like heavyweight goat of all time and we could debate stepe a different day but to me that's just incredible so for me I'm sure we can't I'll never give stepe a damn they were good hater um hater I got to say though I I went for I would try to diversify it a little

bit so early on you have to have some strike force in there so for me it was what came not a two Strike and Force fights, I didn't want to put both on there. Obviously, the book Bigfoot Silva or Josh Barnett. So to me, I ultimately picked Josh Barnett because I know the Bigfoot Silva was sort of his big coming out party. That was the big upset. That was when we realized D.C. Daniel Cormier might be somebody in this division, someone real that we're going to have to pay attention to very soon. But the Josh Barnett fight, like he went in there. And Josh Burnett was one of the top heavyweights in the world at that point still. And Daniel Cormey utterly destroyed him from from pillar to post. Like, it was just not a competitive contest in the slightest. And all of a sudden,

it was very apparent overnight that Daniel Cormier is not only here, like he might be the best damn heavyweight in the entire world. And that to me is sort of the big standout point from his early pre-UFC career is just that Josh Burnett fight, that crystallizing moment we all had of just like, this dude's going to be trouble, man. This is, this is a real, real person in this heavyweight division. A lot of guys might not be able to match up against him. So I had Josh Barnett as my first pick. I'm going to pause you right here just because this is very, this was a really interesting choice for me because I also wanted to have a strike force fight.

I went the other way. I took Bigfoot Silva because I thought, I think of that as his real coming out party for the stuff we mentioned before. Now, in retrospect, maybe the Barnett win still sits a little better, but at the time, Bigfoot coming off the Fador win, he's the first dude to really like do the damn thing. That was when I thought the world stood up. up and took notice. So I want Damon to be the tiebreaker here. Damon, did you have, in your round rush forward, do you have any of the strike force? And if so, do you have one of Sean or mine?

Which of us is right here? I have one, almost picked two, to be honest, but I went with one, and I went with Josh Burnett. I think Josh Burnett at that point was a really good heavyweight, and DC ragdolled him. I mean, he launched him across the cage a couple of times. And, and he'd launched him across the cage a couple of times and just beat him up. Like, it was an eye-opening performance. Don't get me wrong. The Bigfoot Silver was the other one. That's the other one.

I almost put both of those in my list because both of those are incredible wins. But the way he just ragged all Josh Burnett, who was an incredibly good grappler, maybe not the greatest wrestler ever, but incredibly good grappler, for him to just launch him across the cage numerous times and invite Josh Burnett to grapple him on the ground and Josh could do nothing. That was just a jaw-dropping performance. DC. As good as the win it was in the coming out party, so to speak, with Bigfoot Silva, I think

the Josh Burnett win is just, it just means more because of who Josh Barnett is and was. Okay. To me, the Josh Barnett's two to one. The Josh Barnett win to me was what wiped away of like, oh, anybody, any heavyweight you can win by knockout in the first round. And, you know, that's just not an uncommon thing we see it every way. The Bigfoot Silver thing ultimately could have been seen as a fluke if he doesn't come out there and just demolish Josh Burnett from Pillard of Post.

Like that was the moment the DC high crotch became like a signature move in that man's career. It was he comes out there. And I think in the first round, he basically like picks Josh Barnett over his head and just chucks him. And Josh Burnett's huge. Like if you've ever been in the room with Josh Burnett, that is a gigantic man. And DC just picked him up like a sack of potatoes that just threw him. This is not a video show. So you can't see.

But I have a little artwork behind me that's like a big amalgamation of DC's very. various throws in the Josh Burnett one is like right there. And it's just that, that to me is just such an iconic image. So I had Josh on there. I'm willing, I'm willing to concede. Well, Josh, the Josh DC fight that's on the Rushmore. That's the strike force. Okay. I accept, I accept you gentlemen's overruling me in this regard. So real quick then, I'll rifle through the rest of my three. For me, this was pretty hard then. Because to me, there's two definitive ones that I think have to be on there and then that that fourth spot feels like a wildcard spot i put the gusterson fight on there that feels like it has to be definitive it's one of the all-time underrated fights it's probably

dc's most impressive win just in terms of like where who that person was in that particular time at light heavyweight uh i think stepe win is his ultimately his most impressive win but just said light heavyweight that to me is his best win because gustason i know new fans now will look at gustason in a different way than some of us will, because for a moment, Alexander Gustafsson should have been light heavyweight champion and was very close to different times and was just like generally one of the best

in the damn world. And that fight, he gave DC absolute hell. And the fact that DC was able to recover from that knee, I think maybe third or fourth round, I can't remember, is one of the all-time great recoveries in a championship fight.

And one thing that we don't think about with DC, that was very much there in terms of his skill set, is that dude just had a legendary chin. And you could not knock him out, which makes the John Jones knockout as more impressive than Maya. So it feels like Guston has to be on there. Obviously, the steep fight, the first one, has to be on there because of what that means for DC's career.

That feels like that's the most obvious version of all of this. And then that fourth spot, again, feels very up for grabs for me, very wildcardish. I ultimately went with what I think is his signature highlight, is his best moment of his career, just sort of the one you can replay on the highlight package. that's five seconds, which is the Dan Henderson throw. The Dan Henderson throw, which again is right behind the immortalizing this artwork,

where he has Dan Henderson just straight horizontal in the air. And like I'm about to slam him. It just looks straight out of pro wrestling. And that was that guy's first real fight at light heavyweight. Like he'd obviously had the Patrick Cummins fight, but that was the first real light heavyweight fight. And that was when we were all like, oh, man, I think this DC Jones thing might have some juice to it because this is crazy.

No one's going out there and doing that to Dan Anderson. Like he beat him up like a big brother, little brother situation. And that throw to me is just his iconic highlight. So I have that as my fourth. Okay, Damon. There's going to be some overlap here. How much overlap do you have with Sean's list? Three out of four. Barnett, 100%. Stepe has to be. I mean, come on. Steve Miochage is knocking out Steepa the way he did. That's... We can just go ahead and put it on the Mount Rushmore. We've accepted Barnett and Steepay. They're on the Mount Rushmore. like two spots up for grabs. Gustafson I have on the list as well. I was at that fight.

I remember how ridiculous it was being in the arena when Gustafson landed that knee. And you're like, oh, my God, he's going to come back and pull it off and then for D.C. to recover and come back and win that fight. And D.C. got beat up in that fight and he still found a way to win. And it was just an incredible performance. My fourth one, I almost put Dan Henderson, got to be honest. But, you know, I just, the way he threw him around the, the cage, I kind of equated to the Josh Barnett fight where, you know, he already did that to Josh

Burnett and maybe doing it that Dan Henderson wasn't quite as impressive at that point, only because Dan, again, was never truly a light heavyweight. Even though he had a lot of light heavyweight accomplishments, Dan Henderson was never a true 205 pounder. So I put the first Anthony Rumble Johnson fight as my fourth fight. Coming out of the John Jones loss, one of the most devastating losses of DC's clear such a rivalry. And then five months later, you know, John Jones screws up his life. DC has to step in against the legit. you know, one hit or quitter and Rumble Johnson who had looked better than ever going into that fight

almost got clipped early in the fight and then comes back and finishes him and actually becomes champion for the first time and that moment was so incredible for DC I think that to me is number four and it's not easy but that's the one I picked. That is extremely interesting because, so we'll just start here.

I also had Gustafson thing to remember about that fight. the only reason it was not fight of the year in 2015 is Robbie Lawler and Roy McDonald had what some the fight that some people consider to be the greatest fist fight in the history of the world

that is that's not a shab it's not too shabby to come runner up to that fight that year like that fight was an all-time fight great performance uh so that's we've we've got three on the rush more I'm interested to debate this though because I have the Dan Henderson toss as an honorable mention because it I think it's his best highlight. I mean, maybe the steeper K.O. is his best highlight, but the toss is just unbelievable.

I remember watching that fight in real time, be like, oh shit, that dude is going to be good. That guy is insane. So I have that on there. I also have the Rumble Johnson, the first win in my honorable mention list, because it's the first time you won a world champion. I think from a career highlight standpoint, that's pretty A1. Neither of you mentioned it, so I'm going to do it. I have John Jones at UFC 182, and I have that fight for a very specific reason. You cannot tell the story of Daniel Cormier's career without John Jones being involved.

And I think that this is the fight that was more instructive to me than the rematch. The rematch maybe leaves you some more indelible images, Cormier crying afterwards, and saying it's not a rivalry than everything that came with the no contest, et cetera. But I just, I find it really hard to think I'm doing a four fights of DC and not involving John Jones. And this fight was so big at the time. And everything about it was what we were hoping and wanting it to be. Because like you guys said, when he dropped in, dropped down to 205, that was always the goal.

We all knew that that was the mission going to 205. was to pursue a fight with John Jones. And then it's there. And that whole, I remember watching that fight just being super tense the whole time, even though Cormier lost pretty cleanly. And it's, I watched it again in preparation with this.

It's really not a bad performance from him. He just, it's really difficult in a lot of ways for him to have ever fought John Jones because John has a foot and a half reach advantage on him. And D.C. is in his mid-30s at this time, and outside of his athletic peak. So that is my fourth one. Am I wrong to have it in there?

I don't know that you're wrong. I just think it comes down to what's your definition of a Mount Rushmore, right? Because to me, the way you sort of framed it in the syllabus is like these are his four most impressive performances. And I don't know that I would put that in terms of impressive performances up there, but it is one of his four most important performances. Because you're right. I think there was a one, two, maybe even three year window where

the Jones DC rivalry sort of ruled the sport. Like we all remember the only thing that happened. Yeah, the hey pussy, are you still there is still one of the greatest exchanges, just like videos to ever come out of any fight rivalry ever. John, John, you think I'm just going to let you come kill me? You think you're walking here? I'm just going to let you come kill me is one of my favorite things that's ever been saying. Underrated line.

Such an underrated line. That is one of the greatest all-time retorts in any sort of, you know, trash chug. exchanges. Usually I'm just going to sit here and let you kill me, John. I love, I have a funny story about that whole video, too. I like him partly responsible for that being in the world. Oh, I need to hear this story right now. Screw the categories. I need to know what's going on right now. I don't know if I can tell this. So I was on vacation when that whole brawl went down because that was obviously the brawl at the MGM.

And that was like all right afterwards. That was the immediate aftermath. And I was on vacation, but it was such a big deal when that happened that I sort of like got called off the bench of like, hey, I know you're on vacation because you help us on the website here real quick. And so I was just helping around doing some backend stuff. And someone, I can't say who,

but someone at a certain organization sent that video link to someone I knew who then sent it to me. and it was a private YouTube link at that point that was going around at this four-letter organization that no one was supposed to see because it was all just back-end stuff. And I had eventually gotten this link and I watched this and I instantly was like,

oh my God, this is the greatest thing I've ever seen in my life. Like this was just hours after this. And I was like, I need to... People to see this too. I was like, I need to let the world know about this. And I tweeted about it. And I was like, greatest thing ever as I tweeted the link out. And instantly I got like two different messages of,

dude, you need to take that tweet down. That was not meant for the public. Like, what are you doing? And in my mind, it's like, well, you need to let me know that before you said this to me that I shouldn't be letting the world know. So I deleted the tweet, but at that point it had already been up like five minutes. And it was out there. And I was seeing people now retweet that same link from my initial thing. And I saw people being like, wait, the original link's gone. I don't remember. where I saw this initially. So I kind of like got away, Scott Free, but at that point it was already out there

and they just embraced it. So I don't know if that would have gotten out there anyway. It probably would have because somebody would have done the same thing as me. But the fact that like I somewhat played a part of that being part of the world is like maybe my greatest accomplishment because that needed to be out there. Until your child is born, this is easily your greatest accomplishment. And the UFC goes you a cut of the paper views because that that boosted the profile

of that thing. so much. So, God, I'm glad to know that story. Someone almost lost their job because of that. So I was not a, it was in a good time for me. Yeah. I mean, no, I don't, I stand by everything you did. Journalistic integrity to just let the world know, John Jones, just be a John Jones.

You send me a solid goal like that. You need to preface, hey, don't put this out there. I need that ahead of time because I got. Very excited. Needs to be in big, bold letters. Not for publication. Oh, man, that makes me really, really happy. When I got a great deal on a great gift at winners,

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Summer Friday's Rare Beauty Way, Cifera collection, and other part of Vite. Procurre you see form of standard and mini, regrouped for a better quality of price. On link on Cifora.C.A. or in a magazine. Okay, we're going to move on. I'm not sure. We've got three of four on the Mount Rushmore, and I'm willing to open it up for the listeners. You can fill in the fourth spot with whatever you choose, but we've definitively named three there.

And so now it's on to the sister award to the Mount Rushmore. the bad sister award, the evil twin. I'm not impressed by your performance. What is the career low for Daniel Cormier? I have a choice. I have only one. I guess I have a second runner-up that's more of a tongue-in-cheek thing. My answer, I'll just throw this out to you all to react, respond to.

I think it's 08 Olympics. I know you could talk about the John Jones fights. Certainly if we're just going in. an M.A perspective, those would take precedence, but this was a guy who was favored to win a medal at the 2008 Olympics, had had a stranglehold on the 96-kilogram weight division in the U.S. for a decade, came up just short in 2004. He was the team captain and had kidney failure due to a blown weight cut and got pulled from the Olympics, didn't even end up competing. And that ended up being the last time we wrestled seriously on the senior circuit.

So to me, that's, that has to be the low point of anyone's career. If you are going to the Olympics with legitimate metal aspirations and then don't even get to compete, I feel like that's the low. But please, Damon, Sean, tell me if you have something different. I mean, that's a, that's a really strong pick because that's probably got to be, I mean, even when you think about the John Jones losses, I would, you know, I feel like, I know DC pretty well. I mean, I've been interviewing him for, you know, before he had his first

MMA fight. You know, we talked after the O.A. Olympics for the first time I ever talked to him. And, uh, I would say wrestling, wrestling has meant so much to Daniel Cormiere. I mean, as great as he was in mixed martial arts, wrestling has always been like his thing. I mean, I talked to him after he did the, uh, the commentary or after he did the commentary for the NCAA championships just this year.

And like, you could hear the exuberance in his voice. He was just so excited to call wrestling match. and he just loves wrestling. So you kind of convinced me that's probably the one. I didn't consider that at the time only because it didn't happen. He didn't go in and lose. He just didn't get to wrestle. But yeah, considering what DC, what wrestling means to DC, that probably is number one.

The only other pick I had was the second John Jones fight. And I know that one's got a big, you know, asterisk next to it because of John Jones testing positive and getting overturned to a no contest. but in that moment, it looked like we were going to see, you know, once again, the two greatest light heavyweights at that time by far, you know, battling it out for a second time and for DC to get head kicked knocked out as brutal as he did. And then, you know, the aftermath of that, it was heartbreaking. It was a heartbreaking moment.

Now, again, I know a lot of it gets erased or changed because of what John Jones did. But that moment was, man, it was, it was heartbreaking to see DC go down like that. I mean, that just, it was just rough, you know, you just didn't see him having that happen. So to me, those are the two, but you might have convinced me with the LA Olympics because that, knowing how much wrestling means to D.C., I would imagine that probably still breaks his heart more than anything else that's ever happened. I just have to. So I will interject a personal story here along this. I previously dated a very high-level gymnast or who was formerly a really high-level gymnast. And she was a national champion several times,

you know, did that whole thing, and was set to go to the Olympics. Like that was her whole life aspiration was to go to the Olympics. And she ended up suffering an injury not long before Olympic trials and ultimately missed out on making a team, a U.S. team that, I think, went on to win silver, maybe gold. I don't remember exactly which one of those, but the team that went on to metal that she would have made.

And I talked to her about it. And it, like, it jacked her up for, like, her for a really long time in her life. Like, that's just, like, all of the, all of your energy is put to that. And so then to have it taken away from you, you know, for one reason or another is just has to be so unbelievably devastating. And so like that's why to me this was like super easy. It was like, yeah, it has to be the Olympics. But Sean, do you have a case to be made elsewhere?

I thought I did, but I come in coming into this, but I'm with Damon. I mean, you more or less sold me on the Olympics. I think that's a great pick, to be honest. Because I had the John Jones sort of won two back to back of that as my pick, in particular the second fight, where again, like Damon says, tough, tough watch. A tough watch even now. It's really tough watch. I don't know that I would consider DC a friend,

but every interaction I've had with him has certainly been very positive. And it's just like in this industry, you get to know certain athletes, and he was always someone who was really good to me over the course of a lot of different projects and who is just a very nice guy who you can't not like once you meet him. And watching him like that in tears, lowest moment of his career, sort of what it felt like at that moment,

a defining moment of his career, where it's just like, okay, this is who you are now. You're that guy who lost to this guy twice, and that's sort of how where everyone's going to look at you. That, to me, felt like the day dear of all of this. But you're 100% right. It's the Olympics. It's the 08 Olympics because everything up to that guy's up to that point

of that guy's life was leading to that moment. And that was his moment to be able to seize it and become the guy, and he didn't even get to compete. So that's it. That's the pick. Boom. I will also say that my tongue and cheek honorable mention was, and this one's much more topical given every other week, something

in this regard is happening. His work on commentary. Certainly Dominic Cruz, not, you know, their friends, quote unquote, but a lot of people coming to DC for his work in the booth lately. So that was the only other one I had. But I'm glad we found it. I nailed one. Yes, feel good about that. Next award One of my personal favorites I'm really excited to have Sean here for this because the man has excelled in this category The Ivan Minjaveh Award

It is named It is for the weirdest Most Surprising opponent The Danerukormi has ever faced It is named after Ivan Minjavar Who tell you guys every episode Once famously was the first fight Of George St. Pierre's

illustrious in a career Ivan Minjabar Career Bannamweight Fighting the greatest of all time fighter ever and a welterweight slash middleweight. So I, this is a weird, weird one this, this round because you, there's kind of a depth of people you can pick here, but nobody really stood out to me as a standout one. And so I'm going to put this to you, Sean, because you excel in this category. Who is your Ivan Benjavre award winner? So this one was easy to me. I,

I really like this category for a lot of different. I'll have, I say there's two honorable mentions, first of all. One is Lucas Brown, who DC fought very early in his career. Yeah, he's my third place. To me, if you don't know who Lucas Brown is,

like dude's nickname Big Daddy, he's 43 years old. He literally just boxed on the Cambosis versus Haney card, that giant card in Marvel Stadium. He literally boxed on that card and won like some Australian Eurasia national champion or like title or something, just like fake some baked boxing top.

The IBF Australian hot heavyweight title. Yeah, very random guy to have just fought DC in his third pro fight ever. And he was, I think he was 5 and O in MMA at the time too. Like he was like a legitimately semi-accomplished boxer who also dabbled an MMA. Super weird. He was my overall number one pick. So nice. Yeah, he very, very weird name on the resume for DC.

Number two, honorable mention for me would be the immortal Dion staring. which this was just the weirdest like overall guy that DC fought in MMA to me because if you look at sort of where this came in his career he had just beaten Bigfoot Silva and Josh Barnett back to back won the heavyweight title on Strike Force UFC by Strike Force and they want to do they need to do like one last DC fight and somehow it ends up being Dion Staring like you went from Bigfoot Silva Josh Barnett proper escalation to Dion Staring who knew and knew beforehand and certainly no one's heard from afterwards like. that's the one thing Dion Staring is known for. And he just got writ to shreds and a mercy killing for no reason because Strike Force was just a lame duck at that point. And they just needed to get D.C. win. Fun fact on the Dion Staring fight just before that. Dion Staring's fight before Daniel Cormier was against a guy who was two and 13 in his professional M.M.A. career.

That's a big jump. That's a big jump. And he's one of like only four. He's like one of four guys on DC's entire record who doesn't have a Wikipedia page. Like that tells you how obscure this guy is. Like the first couple of guys on DC's resume don't, but that's because it's like literally his first couple of fights of his career. But this guy, this guy doesn't and no one remembers him outside of getting mauled by DC.

Yeah. So top legacy to have. You're just the rando that was brought in for this. But my, for me, this was an easy pick. I was very excited to make this pick. I feel like maybe only Damon and two other people in the world. will have heard of this pick. But, Damon, are you familiar with the RPW, in particular, the Oklahoma Slam?

Oh, yes. Oh, yes. So this is the pick. DC and, I'm sorry, Tommy Rollins is the pick. DC, if you have never seen it, was part of this very bizarre thing back in the day called the RPW, which was only a thing for maybe like two months. Real pro wrestling, baby? Yeah.

Real pro wrestling. it barely exists. I have the DVDs sitting in my house. I could still watch them. I did some feature on it back of the day. It was this attempt to professionalize amateur wrestling and make it more entertaining. There's still a few YouTube videos on the internet that if you see they have like a health bar, like a power meter on as these guys are wrestling is like it is called like the power meter.

It was something like that. They're wrestling on top of like a giant moat. and so guys are getting thrown off the moat, very tech and soul caliber style of getting ringouts. And it was all just like this attempt to basic, it was on packs. It was on packs for like eight weeks at a very random point. It was actually lost out from Spike. Spike was either going to do the ultimate fighter or RioPro Wrestling. They chose the ultimate fighter.

And I think they probably chose the correct one. But it's just, it's got a bunch of guys that you would know. It's got Joe Warren. It's got D.C. It's got Mola Wall. Pat Cummins is there. Aaron Simpson, Chale tried out and you just lost badly. It's just a very weird point of pro wrestling or amateur wrestling history.

And DC, Joe Warren and Mo Llewall were the Oklahoma Slam. That was their team. And they were the villains of this whole thing. They were the only ones who totally understood that this is our chance to be on national television for eight weeks. And we're trying to be entertaining. And we're not these Iowa farm boys who are just going to say, you know, I'm happy to be here. and it's good to compete. They came on this thing with an agenda of

we're going to be so damn entertaining and just ridiculous and over the top that if you watch the promos, like, it's just a hilarious rewatch of just they're doing so much trash talking and just bringing so much swagger to it when no one else in the entire competition even is approaching it at all like that.

And they just come off so badly compared to everyone else. It is so fun to watch. And in the finals, DC faces a, a man named Tommy Rollins. Ohio State legend. Ohio State legend, Tommy Rollins. Yeah, man.

Also, I should mention Moble Ball did this whole thing with his nipple rings on. You should mention that. That should have been the lead. But they were, because they were trying to ditch the singlet of like, again, let's make this more entertaining.

But he couldn't, you can't just wrestle with nipple rings on. So they're very delicate fix to this was to just scotch. tape the nipples over his chest. And so it was just, all of this is so bizarre, man. You guys should, you too, this is incredible. But so DC wrestles Tommy Rollins, who at that point, Damon, you probably know, like,

he was coming out of college. He was sort of the next guy who was going to be in that weight class in the world scene of like, hey, I'm the guy coming to take your spot. Do you see? Because DC was the guy at that weight class at that point in time in the world when it came to the trials and everything like that. And so everyone's telling DC like, hey, this is the guy coming to take your spot. And DC comes into that, I did a feature on this a long time ago where he was talking to me about it,

comes into this whole season with like such a chip on his shoulder and a point to prove to Tommy Rollins of, dude, you will never beat me. You are never ever going to be the guy. I'm the guy. And DC in the finals of this RPW tournament destroys Tommy Rowland so systematically that to the point, like by the end of it, Tommy Rollins is just this poor, poor guy. he's just like this reactive shell just sort of like fetal positioning up

and DC was like mean during this whole thing too like he was like throwing sneaky elbows and just being like almost like an MMA fighter back then like he was just really being rough with these guys and it's the final minute of this of this final match and DC mounts Tommy Rollins and on live television just spanks him on the ass like six times just hard spanks on the ass

and this is like amateur wrestling like these dudes do not do this this is a very respectful sport. And the announcing crew just goes ballistic. So it's not amateur wrestling. It's real pro wrestling. It's real pro. Oh, man. Announcing crew goes ballistic of just like, what a disgrace. You can't

do that. What is this? And it was just, it was such a moment. And I remember afterwards, I love this quote from DC. He said to me, uh, guys don't forget a beating like that. Knowing that when you, even when a guy's winning a match, he's still trying to put a beating on and smash you. That wasn't competition for me. That wasn't fun.

I was asserting dominance over that whole weight division and those guys know it. And Tommy Rollins never beat him. Like Tommy Rollins went into the world scene and never ever beat D.C. From that point on, like, Dominic Rollins was owned by D.C. DC was his daddy and Tommy Rollins eventually had to just move up a wait to escape D.C. And to me, that is just such a perfect representation of who that guy is. DC, D.C. was to Tommy Rollins, what Kail Sanderson was to D.C. in American wrestling. Like, Tommy Rollins was really good.

And granted, I'm an Ohio State guy. He was a really good wrestler and he could not be Daniel Gormier. It's amazing. Go, go YouTube. Go YouTube, Daniel Correate, Tommy Rowland's RPW, and you will see this man, spank this man six times and the announcers lose their damn minds like it is the wildest thing they've ever seen. I'm going to have to. Damon, you're going to be really hard pressed to beat that. But please, if you have a contender, please offer it now.

I have one other one I want to throw out there only because it's got to be when you talk about the pantheon of great fighters that DC fought in the UFC and it's a pretty incredible list. I think the one that sticks out like a sore thumb. And it also reminds me the promotion when they tried to sell this fight was when he fought Patrick Cummins. He was stepping in on short notice and they tried every way, shape, and form to sell this fight because they had wrestled. DC had beaten him in, I think it was the Olympic trials. and they trained together. That was the selling point. They trained together,

and apparently Patrick Cummins had made D.C. cry or something in the training, and that was the selling point. They put this on Fox Sports or whatever it was. They did an interview together, and they tried so hard to make Patrick Cummins look like a legitimate contender to Daniel Cormier when he came in the UFC and had, like, one fight.

And D.C. went out there and just mauled this poor guy. I mean, he just went out there and decimated him from one side of the case to the other, and it only lasted like three minutes or whatever it was. but to me that's the weird one because it was so funny. They tried so hard to promote that fight as like former teammates, former rivals in wrestling. They were so close and now they're going to fight.

They were never really that close in wrestling, and they certainly weren't any closer in MMA. And it was just the promotion of that fight still to this day cracks me up with how hard they tried to push Pat Cummings as like a legit contender to Daniel Cormier, and Daniel Cormier just absolutely mauled him. So that to me sticks out only because during his UFC run, He has nothing but like all-time kind of great opponents except one. And that's the one that sticks out.

It's Pat Cummins. Except one. Sean, I think now it would be a really great time for you to read the quote we were talking about before we started recording from Mr. Patrick Cummins because we're going to go ahead and award the Ivan Minjavar to Tommy Rollins because you did a great sell job there. but this Pat Cummins quote is a plus plus stuff I love it Pat Cummins weird was such a weird entanglement with DC his entire career

where like DC is just in his life for so long in a way that like doesn't need to be like Pat Cummins was with amateur wrestling RPW UFC like he followed him all these ways but yeah I did this night you face we faced life of Brian is life of Daniel Cormier backup very straight I did this night we faced DC piece a couple years ago before the third steep fight, and Pat Cummins for that told me this quote. He said, I remember seeing him he was wrestling at 184 pounds. He's talking about in college.

And he looked damn good, man. Let me tell you, Deennial Corby, without any body foul on him, it's like, damn, who is this guy? He was just beating the hell out of everyone. He was just so talented. A guy like me, I'm a walk on at Penn State, and I earned everything I did. And it was just, oh yeah, hard works beat talent all day long. And then you run into a guy like that. And you're like, wait a minute, this is all a load of shit.

There is no way I can beat this guy. I love it. It's such a good quote. That's the best thing Pat Collins has ever done is give you that quote. All right. Next category. I love this category. It's the Fader's Sweater of Absolute Victory category.

It is based on Fader's Sweater of Absolute Victory. It's the piece of memorabilia you would want from this fighter's career. I love this category. I found the panelists tend to have a more difficult time with this one for me than I do. I have one answer. It's the first and only thing I thought of. It's the right answer. So I would like to throw it to you, Damon, because if you didn't get the right answer,

we need to finish on the correct answer at the minimum. And I definitely have the right answer here. Now I'm just curious what the right answer is in terms of like that career. And as soon as I say it, you guys will be like, oh, yeah, that's the correct one. If you didn't come to it of your own accord. Yeah, that is a tough one. I mean, in terms of, God, that's, that's, now you got me, now you got me in my head because now I'm thinking like, what would be the one?

What am I meant? I'll tell you what, there's one, you know, in terms of like, you know, the, the, we're talking about, you know, we're basically talking about, you know, the one, the one thing we could have from their career, right? Like the one thing. This is a personal one. so I know I'm not going to get yours right. A few years ago,

Daniel Cormier was already established as a, you know, legit UFC legend, already doing the damn thing. 2014 comes around. There's a fan expo in Las Vegas, and they promoted Daniel Cormier's final wrestling match of his career against Chris Pendleton. And it was,

you know, it was, it was fun. It was, you know, it was fun, but it was ultimately, you know, they were friends and Chris Pendleton was obviously oversized. He was

undersized going against the D.C. But it was fun to be, I was there, you know, five feet away from the, from the mat. I'm a wrestling guy. I love wrestling. I recorded it. I think I have one of the only videos of that match because somehow the UFC never actually recorded that and put it out

there, which is bizarre to me. So I had it recorded on my phone. So I have one of the only like recordings of D.C.'s Finally, I want the wrestling matches. And he left his shoes on the on the mat and that was just cool because you know and DC came over right after and like gave me a handshake because like I was one of the few journalists that was there like covering it because I knew what a big deal it was because at that point like you know even though DC was

D.C. was D. Wrestling was still like fighting for respect. So like no one was like, oh, this is a big deal. No, it was a very big deal. And I would love to have those shoes because I have a photo of D.C. shoes on the wrestling mat from that moment. I was sitting right there. And D.C. came over right after and like gave me a handshake and a hug. And like it was a big moment because I had loved his wrestling career and to see him go out on his final match, it was just cool to be there. So it's a personal one for me because I was there. That's really good. I got to see it.

And I got a photo of DC's shoes, you know, on the mat as he retired officially from wrestling. So that to me is a personal one and very special just because I got to be there for it. That's a really solid one, very good, especially the personal bend to it. So no issues with that. Sean, did you pick the correct answer, though? I doubt it. I'm sitting here racking my head of what it could have been.

You would know if you did. So you didn't do it. So what do you have for? I don't think I did. I actually like Damon's more than anything I picked because I picked the shirt tucked into shorts combo. I just want one of the shirt tucked into shorts combos that he would run out with. You're about to be a dad. You can do that.

I feel like I need that look in my life now that I'm about to be a dad. That's the ultimate dad look. And I was always very appreciative of it. I think I had also like a signed photo of the head. Hendo throw. I don't know. That was not really. Also, maybe the t-shirt from the, you think I'm just going to sit here and let you kill me exchange? Because that feels like a pretty legendary, like whatever the pattern, the blue that pattern that he is going. But I settled on the Oklahoma slam shorts from RPW. That would be

where I would want. Oh, see, that's a really fun one too, just especially we already talked about it. So great choices. You're both wrong. Damon, you were very close because I do want his shoes, or more appropriately, I want one shoe. Now I know where you're going. I want the shoe that he threw at John Jones during the MGM brawl. It was the first thing I thought of when I was looking at this, like, this is only one choice. I want that. That's the pick.

That's the big. That's the thing. And I want the shoe that he threw at John Jones. And do you know, do you know who? Do you know who recovered the shoe and got almost got hit with the shoe? Do you remember this? I have no. Was it around a hunt?

No, MMA journalist Heidi Fang from the Los Angeles. She was the one who got the shoe and she was the one who actually got the shoe because it flew right on the... I assume she gave it back to D.C., but she's the one. She's the one who almost got hit with the shoe when he missed John Jones and went flying into the crowd. I truly hope she didn't because that is... You don't return that. That is a forever piece of memory. Because if I guarantee you, again, this is not video so no one can see it.

But I'm going to have a, I'm going to have a shelf behind me on the wall. And that would be immediately the thing I would put on the shelf is the shoe that he threw at John Jones. So yeah, that's going to be our answer. But Damon, you, you know, you hit the sentimental really well. It's a great choice in that regard. All right, y'all. Next category. I got to say, I'm proud of us because we've probably had more consent.

on this episode than any any before and it's probably going to keep going on because the next category is the international player hater's ball is named after the dave chapel skit about the international player hater's ball this is just where we nitpick the fighter's career and i got to be honest guys i didn't have a lot for this one this time um i think there there's one thing that really jumps out It's a thing that we've mentioned a lot. And it's just that his light heavyweight title run will forever have the specter of John Jones over. He never beat John Jones. Never really got close to beating John Jones.

And that's a, it's not a black mark, but it is, it is if you are trying to attack and poke holes into the career of Daniel Cormier, I think that's a very obvious place to start. But do you guys, Damon, do you have anything else? Anything that jumped out at you for this category? Honestly, no. We have another category coming up in a minute that I wanted, that I know specifically one moment that kind of changed D.C.'s career, but that's not, that's not something that happened. It's something that didn't happen.

So, yeah, I mean, it's John Jones. I mean, that's it. I mean, and listen, when you're talking about, you know, I've said on this podcast already, I think John Jones is the greatest mixed martial artist of all time. That's a hard place to be when that's the guy in front of you. And I said earlier with Kail Sanderson, same thing with the wrestling. When you have that guy in front of you, it's hard to, like, you know, be defined as the greatest of your era when you have that guy in front of you. So I think it's got to be John Jones only because, you know, they were one and two.

I mean, I was convinced when they fought the first time, I was convinced Daniel Cormey was the guy to beat John Jones. I thought he had the wrestling. I thought he had the power. I thought he was the guy to finally dethrone John Jones. And he didn't. John beat him. And, you know, it wasn't necessarily. necessarily that close of a fight. It was a good, you know, decent fight, but not like it was

48, 47 split decision. It was a, it was a clear win for John Jones. Kind of shocking to me, because I thought Daniel Corme was the guy to beat him. So it's got to be John Jones. I don't know, I don't know anything else that sticks out. I just, I can't imagine there being another moment in his career that's more obvious than John Jones. I'm with you on that. And I just kind of want to throw this out here, even though it's not necessarily what this pot is about. For my money, the first DC Jones fight is the best performance of John Jones's career. I mean, it's not the flashiest, obviously, the string of finishes, but given the respect, I think we all have for DC, the fight, like you said, Damon, it was competitive.

You know, Cormier was never really out of the fight, but he was never really winning the fight. And so for my money, it's the best performance of his career. And that's really tough for Daniel Cormier to run up against that particular thing. but Sean do you have do you have anything else? I would add to what you were just saying I don't know if it's the best but it's certainly the most meaningful performance of John's career like it's the one that if we had to pick one of his whole Mount Rushmore that's probably the one that we would all pick I would imagine just because of what it means for both of these guys'

legacy to be honest this was a hard category for me too I didn't really have much we mentioned earlier that if he came up now he would actually be an Olympic bronze medalist. That's a hard, that's a tough sell. That's a hard way that for things to turn out for this guy. The one nitpick I did come up with, maybe doesn't even have to do in particular with something Daniel did, but it just maybe the way that all of this was portrayed in the moment and sort of the narrative of the DC Jones rivalry, because people who come up now won't realize it, but DC was like the villain during that whole rivalry in a weird way that never made any sense to me and if I would nitpick anything, it would be sort of the way that we approached that rivalry

as a community because how the hell is that guy, the villain of this thing between him and John Jones, who is just objectively the villain in anything that he's a part of because of everything he's about. And yet, for some reason. We talked about the, are you there pussy? Like, I'm going to kill you. Like, we talked, he was even the villain in this. Dude.

But he somehow wasn't the villain. He was adored during this whole thing. Daniel was constantly booed everywhere he went, and it's just like you have this incredibly, you know, nice family guy, DC, again, just teddy bear. Like, we all love him. And then you have John Jones who has a rap sheet that is so ridiculously long and we have, you know, body cam footage and all this stuff like of John Jones. And yet, John Jones, the cheater is the one that is the good guy in this rivalry. That to me is my nitpick because that made, that didn't make sense to me in the moment. and it makes so much even less sense in retrospect.

That's a really good one. Very meta. I appreciate it. The only other thing I could have put here, and let's pull the room, because I don't know if this is true or not, but I think there was, especially after the second steep fight,

this idea that Danor Cormier was weak to the body because, you know, Anderson Silva kicked him in the belly and was surprisingly dangerous given Anderson Silva at the time, just from like a technical standpoint. But otherwise, his issues were not really nitpicky. They were, they were broad structural things if there were problems with him.

We don't need to dive too deep into it because we're going to move on to our next category. It's the alternate universe award. It is for what is the biggest what if of a fighter's career. I got a few here. I don't know how you guys are feeling, but Sean, let's kick it off with you. what's the biggest what if of DC's career? I mean, the biggest is an obvious one in my mind, right? What if John Jones never exists?

Because if John Jones doesn't exist, I think there's a real chance that we are talking about Daniel Corme as a top five fighter of all time, easily the greatest 200-pound fighter to ever live. And it's just this, everything is different. Every aspect of the way we talk about this guy would be framed in a much different light if John Jones just decided to, you know, be an auto-maintenant in Sky

or try to pursue basketball or whatever, like, or football with his brothers. If John Jones isn't involved with MMA in any capacity, I think Daniel Corme is just so vastly different in terms of every aspect of his career. And that, to me, is the biggest what if. I have a couple honorable mentions, but that's the biggest of the asset. I think that's, I mean, I think that's definitely a contender. It's certainly in my, I haven't picked one. I've got a few, but Damon,

Where are you at here? What do you have as the biggest what if in D.C.'s career? I'm actually going to go in a different direction because while I degree the John Jones thing is the is the most glaring example of a guy who was in his way, my biggest what if is what if D.C. never left heavyweight. That was one of my other ones. If not for Kane Velasquez being his friend and teammate who, you know, unfortunately, Kane's entire career was marred by injury.

You know, he could have been the greatest heavyweight ever, but he just couldn't stay healthy. and you think about that run the DC had when he just dropped down to light heavyweight because he didn't want to have to run into Kane Velazquez or get, you know, you didn't want to deal with that drama, the potential of that fight trying to be set up or being in each other's way, all that kind of thing. And Kane never really got back to where he was. During DC's, basically DC's entire run, Kane was never that guy again because he was injured and he couldn't stay healthy, all these things.

If DC had never left heavyweight, we may have a clear cut number one. one heavyweight ever without even a shadow of a doubt because I truly in my heart to heart believes that DC would have been that guy like I think he would have had four or five six title defenses at heavyweight I think he would have been superior to you know the the heavyweight and this is not a knock on the heavy weights of the air but I'm just thinking like the champions of that area you think about Fabricio for doom you think about you know uh you do you think about I mean obviously it was after that junior dos Santos you think about those guys yeah I think I think DC beats all of them, you know what I mean?

And Kane was the roadblock. And I appreciate that. I appreciate that he stuck up for his teammate. And Kane legitimately was, you know, could have been one of the greatest heavy weights ever, just unfortunately his body wouldn't hold up. But I think that's the biggest what if for me, because if he never left heavyweight and stayed fighting in heavyweight, could you imagine the kind of gaudy records that guy could have potentially built up?

I mean, it's unreal. And that's one division where we've never had a really long-reigning UFC champion. and Steve Miochich has the record with three title defense. It was the three title defenses. That's the record. Imagine if D.C. had never left heavy away what we could be talking about with that guy. I mean, it's so funny, too, the way this stuff plays out, right?

Because you're 100% right, Damon. That was on my list as well. But it's like, you look at him and John, and they are diametric opposites in so many different facets of their personalities, their careers, all of it. But in this one respect, John might have been the one that got it right, because John was in the same spot with Rashad. And he could have, you know, done something else. else, he could have maybe let Rashad be 205 go up to heavyweight, whatever. And he said, no, I'm looking

out for me. I'm looking out for my own legacy. Screw you, Rashad. I'm coming for this title anyway. And DC made the opposite decision and their careers go in very different directions. It's just so weird of the parallels between these two guys, even when you're not looking for him. So I'm going to throw a third one out here. I think the true answer is Damans, because that was on my list was probably going to be the number one. I have another one to throw out. But I would also just like to throw this out there and mention this because I think this gets forgotten in the whole Cormier dropping in the heavyweight saga just because of how it shook out, came of Alaska is like almost never fought again at the time when D.C. made the drop.

D.C. drops in 2013. Kane loses his heavyweight title to Fabrice Bredume in 15 and then that's it. Like, there's, Kane had four fights, basically, after DC cut to 205. Like, that was, at the immediate time frame, obviously the overlap was there, which is what precipitated the move. But if, if DC's timing was just a year later, you know, like, he could have easily just been like, oh, you know, maybe I will do this. And it doesn't have to be the Rashad John Jones thing. I think there are a ton of what ifs and questions in that regard.

But I want to throw another one out there just because. it's the thing that fascinates me maybe more than anyone else because it's the biggest what if and what I mean by that. Oh man. I hope you're about to say what the last one on my list. I think because I think you might go for it. I might be because it's not a huge leap to ask what if Daniel Cormii stayed at heavyweight, etc. What if John Jones? But like we talked about at the beginning of the show, DC wrestled at 184 pounds.

And the quote from Patrick Cummings was, you know, you see DC now. imagine that dude bricked up and just full athletic just monster. What if he never moved? I know he moved to 96 kilograms for his international career in part

because Kail Sanderson was wrestling at the time at the weight class. But what if he just didn't do that? What if he was bricked up collegiate wrestling DC and made the move to MMA? Because who buddy? That dude, his biggest issues that he had fighting were always,

he was just really small. And he built a game around that and to mitigate it. But straight up, like John Jones beat him in large part because he could jab him from a mile away. And DC had to work really hard to close that gap. But a middleweight against, you know, Anderson Silva against Chris Wyman against that group, that dude could have been a huge, huge problem at 185.

And I think about it a lot. Was that your third? Sean? Partly, because I don't know how feasible that would have been. Because you even talk to like John Smith, his old coach at OSU, like John Smith told me when I reported on that feature back in the day, it was just like there was no one ever he encountered in the history of his career. And John Smith's a legend in wrestling.

He's been in this a long time who was able to cut the massive amount of weight that DC was and then recover instantly and be ready for go time in the way that he was. Like that just felt like it was very unsustainable. So I don't know that that would have been a thing he could have continued doing well into his late 20s and 30s is making that 185 pound move. But for me, I mean, ultimately what might be the real answer here is like what if DC had just said screw the Olympics and come out to MMA right out of basically just a very decorated, call it like amateur wrestling career and been a 25 year old monster training this stuff from the beginning? because ultimately, again, as we said at the top, everything this dude did he did after age 30. Like he did not start MMA at all until age 30.

Like we saw a post-prime DC the entirety of his fighting career. If we had seen a 24-year-old, a 26-year-old DC just like being an absolute monster on these guys, that to me probably is the biggest what if ultimately, because it's just like, if we give D.C. his prime years, what does that even look like? because he was so much so quickly, right? He's so prodigious as an athlete and a competitor. I mean, I think you could just say after the 20-04 Olympics, like, just given the 2004 Olympics, like, give him that one Olympic run.

And he's still coming out, like, super young at that point. You know what I mean? Like, give him that one Olympic run. And that's still four years difference for his M.M.aker. Yeah, I mean, that's ridiculous. Like, I don't think DC would have ever, I don't think D.C. would ever fall to 185, like, even when he was bricked up. And you got to remember for people that aren't, like, huge wrestling things.

It's like wrestlers cut weight on the day of the match. Like they're cutting weight and weighing in that morning and they're wrestling that afternoon. So that was a, that was a torturous cut for him. I don't think he would ever really compete at 185. I just don't think his body was built for that. I just think long term it would not have been sustainable.

But to your point, sheen, you're absolutely right. Like, if he, just, just give him to one Olympics, give him the one Olympic run. And in modern times, he would have been a bronze medalist and then let him go into MMA at that point. Oh my God, the potential. Two, unbelievable. on this. First, I'm just going to go, I'd say it. I think you get, I think if we're living this

actuality out, like a prime, physical athletic prime DC that had been training in a mate, I think he beats John Jones. I know that's a bold statement, but I'm going to make it. But two, let's play this out because Damon, I like giving him the one Olympic run. I like the 2004. In 2004, Kane Velasquez was still in college. Kane Velasquez was still wrestling in college. So if he comes out in November, he, before and he goes to AKA, then that whole that reshapes all of it, right? Because then even if he comes to the heavyweight, he's the guy. He's the guy. Kane in, and I mean, we've all heard the stories about Javier Mendes saying as soon as he saw Kane the first time he knew that that guy was going to be a heavyweight champion. Maybe that all shakes out wildly different because he's got D.C. who is,

who's that guy first and then Kane comes in and then it's on Kane to decide if he's going to try in John Jones, D.C. There's a world we could have had Cain versus D.C. Like for the heavyweight title with a bad blood rivalry, which would have been sick. Man, what an opportunity missed. Anyway, I do have to see. That's enough of ours. I do have to say, we got to stop saying bricked up because that means something very different for the kids these days.

I learned that on Twitter a couple months ago by using that. Oh. And got barraged in the comments. It makes something different in my day. Duly noted. yoked, jacked, just swole. But we've done enough hypotheticalizing. So let's do some more, honestly,

because where else to go? But the next category, which is the B. Nourn Mugn Mettov Tony Ferguson Award for the fight that never happened, but you always wanted to see. We're fantasy matchmaking. It's the one fight. If you could make it happen, regardless of time, how things worked,

what's the fight? The fight that got left on the table. And I have one real option. I have an alternate, but I'm going to lead with mine because I think it's the most obvious one. And it is the Brock Lesnar fight. I mean, that was obviously talked about. No, no, no. That's not the other. No, I think that fight would have been awesome.

You got to get that man. You got to get brought. They brought him in the cage. It would have been incredibly fun to watch Brock Lesnar get this shit beat out of him by Daniel Cormi. And Daniel Cormiya is just getting a big old bag for it. It would have been great. Plus then DC wouldn't have had to rematch Stipe, Stipe never would have gotten the belt back.

My life would be way better. I'd be happily enriched if the Brock Lesnar D.C. fight happened as the sports preeminent Stipe a magicianator. But I put Brock Lesnar, I think that's the obvious choice. But, Sean, you seem to have very different opinions. So please, please go for it. No, the obvious choice is John Jones at heavyweight.

That's the obvious choice. If John Joe's DC 3 happens at heavyweight, which it felt like that might happen for a brief climber. There was a moment in time where it felt like that was a possibility. That's the fight because I think to me, even if you're getting a late stage DC, that is such a different fight on so many different levels. Like DC was not a light heavy weight.

I know we call him a light heavy way. We've talked about how he's the second most talented light heavyweight to all time, but ultimately he was a heavyweight. And I feel like if he is able to work within his full functions, not make that crazy weight cut, and just have that mass, all the mass that he would have at heavyweight, that is such a vastly, vastly different fight against John Joe. And to me, that's the one one that I am most upset that we never got.

Because that would have been a really interesting way to sort of capstone his whole career because also there's a chance too where DC loses. And then John Jones can just hold that over him. And then John Jones could just hold that over him even more for the rest of his career of, oh, I beat you twice in two different weight classes to stop you from being, you know, all-time great neither way class. Like that, there's so many stakes in that fight

that I wish we would have gotten. There are a lot of stakes in it, but that fight never interested me because we saw them fight twice and I feel confident what would happen if they fought a third time. But Damon, am I overruled? Is that your what-if fight?

So, no, and I actually have a third option here. Now, the most logical answer, to be honest, is Brock Lezder. And that was my original pick because that's the one that would have got DC, a big old paycheck. And I would be completely okay with that. It would also be hilariously awesome to watch, you know, 5 foot 10 inch chubby DC go out

and ragdoll, you know, yoked up, you know, I don't know how many performance-enhancing drugs he's taken, Brock Lesder during his career. Just watching him launch Brock Lesder across the cage would have been hilariously awesome. Sean, you talking about the photo, the Dan Hindo toss and the Josh Barnett toss. DC tossing Brock Lesder would have broken the internet and would have broken the internet and would have been the best thing that ever happened. And he would have. That man in a high crotch and just putting him over his head would have been something else.

It would have been amazing. So that's the obvious choice. But I'm going to throw out a third option only because I'm not trying to stir controversy. I'm not trying to say like it was realistically going to happen. But to me, it's Daniel Cormier versus Kane Velasquez. They were legitimately, could have been the two best heavyweights of that time, of that era, legitimately the two best heavy weights.

Now, I'm not sad necessarily we didn't see them fight because I do appreciate the friendship and the bond that they built together and they said we're never going to. I appreciate that because we've seen it happen a million times where they say it and then, you know, money comes involved, titles come involved and then they fight. And I'm fine with that too. But the fact that they stuck to their guns, I'm okay with that. But in terms of competitiveness, in terms of stature, in terms of relevancy in their divisions, I don't know there would have been a better heavyweight fight than King Velasquez versus. is Daniel Cormier in like 2015, 2014 of that era, because that's coming off of Josh Burnett. That's coming off of two wins in the UFC. That's at Kane at his peak when he was healthy and actually still really good.

I think that would have been a monster, monster fight. I think in terms of competitiveness, that's the runaway winner, certainly, just because that fight would have been awesome to watch. I'll throw one more out there, though I don't think it's not the winner. But similar vein, though, I would have loved to a lot. watch DC fight like prime Fador. Like if if the if the cards could have lined up even raw DC so instead of Fadour getting tapped by Vardume if somehow DC could have slotted into that and you've just got these two short kind of pudgy dudes who are loki the best heavyweights in the

world chucking them. That would have made me made me quite happy to watch. But I'm you know what I'm going to I'm going to go with Damon. I'm going to say Damon wins this category because I do think that's the best fight to watch from a competitive standpoint. So give me Kane Velasquez as the winner. Our next category, wrapping up, we don't have that many left. This one is a relatively new category. It's one of my favorite things. And I'm really excited this week because it seems like the man, Sean O'Shti, has got some numbers for us. This is the Brad Ims. What were you serious for? It's named after Brad Ims, the hillbilly heartthrob, heavyweight runner up on tough 6-8 monster of a human being who, one of my favorite facts in an M.A. is that he once, or I guess twice,

won fights back-to-back fights by Gogo Plata, which if you've ever seen a picture of Brad Ims is a hilarious idea. This is for the most impressive or unbelievable career statistic. And Sean, because you were, you seem like you had numbers for us when we were talking pre-show. I want to start with you. What do you have? Oh, man, you're sort of setting the bar high for this. I'm not sure. So I don't know. I may have a you obviously the obvious ones, right? Only UFC double champion to defend a belt while having both titles unless you're counting featherweight. Women's featherweight is a real division, which I don't think we should.

Wow. I'm just saying it's catching straight. To defend a belt with real divisions, both titles. We said this earlier, but of the final 11 UFC fights all had championships on the line or were at least supposed to. That's pretty ridiculous for someone who, again, are in a game. That's some Randy Gator-ish right there. Yeah, our legends go out on their back and DC, at least in that respect, did not. But to me, the biggest one stood out from all pre-MMA, right?

Where I don't know if a lot of people know this, but like DC was like a really high level football player in high school. Like he was recruited by LSU to play football. And when the LSU coach went to recruit him, D.C. just met him with the question of, does LSU have wrestling? And he knew they didn't because at that point they had dropped the wrestling program the previous year. And he just straight up was like, I'm not. interested in going to LSU. Is Louisiana boy? Like, I'm just not interested in going to LSU to play football if you don't have wrestling.

He ends up at Colby Community College, which is just a very small random school, dominates so hard in community college, the community college scene. So the point where when he was a sophomore, so his second year at Colby Community College, he did not get scored on the entire year. Not that he did not lose. He did not get scored on the entire year. year. He blanked every single match that entire year, shut people out on his way to win whatever that division national title would be. That is an unbelievable level of dominance that

I have never heard of anyone ever repeat. I'm sure it's happened at some point, but to go a whole entire wrestling season without getting scored on is bonkers. It's pretty insane in folk style too. That's pretty nuts. That's a really good stat. I love, look at you digging deep. to the Juko wrestling records, baby. You got to bring your best when you come on damn, right? You do. So, Damon, what is your best? What's your fun with numbers?

Boy, I tell you what, you know, I mean, listen, Sheen wins the category. I'm just going to say ahead of time. That's a ridiculous stat that I would not have dug up. I think it's better than mine. I think it's better. Because mine was the obvious one, which was, you know, defending two titles at the same time,

being the first guy to do that legitimately. sorry Amanda Nunes, beating Megan Anderson or whoever, whatever, random body got thrown at you at Featherway does not count. DC doing that was pretty amazing. I mean, going out there and doing what he did, you know, when he beat Derek Lewis, defended the title, it was so incredible. Because at that point, you know, the people who had a chance to do it either gave up the title or just, you know, didn't have a chance to do that,

or in some cases retired, whatever the case may be. Yeah, for DC to do that, that was the one that kind of stuck out to me. The other one, it's not really a number necessarily. so I'm kind of cheating here a little bit, just kind of talking about a particular run in his career, but going back to wrestling, and he did have a loss in there, so I know that's a little unfair, but we talked about what if D.C. had come over to M.MA in 2004. When you think about his run after the 20-04 Olympics, and you think about what he did after that, and you look at the ridiculous wrestling resume he did in American wrestling at that point,

multiple wins over Tommy Rollins, wins over Steve Mocko, multiple wins over Muhammad Lawal, who was his teammate and guy, of course, he's super close with. it won a bronze medal in the world championships in 2007, just ran rough shot over the entire U.S. wrestling program at that point and just dominated. I mean, he went through the U.S. nationals in 2008, won every match, didn't give up a point in four matches. And the best U.S. nationals did not give up a point. He gave up one point in the U.S. Olympic wrestling trials to Damien Hahn in his first match,

one, he gave it one point, then he blanked him in the second match. I mean, that's ridiculous. Like that run from basically the end of 2004 to 2008 when he went back to the Olympics again, he had one loss and that was in the world championships that cost him in and he won a bronze medal. That run was so ridiculous and he was legitimately one of the best wrestlers in the world. And again, we have the heartbreak of the 20808 Olympics. But that run was just unreal in terms of what he did in wrestling. I mean, it's tough to argue in general with that.

I had a little more fun with this just because I couldn't find anything that was super exciting. And this will even very slightly touch on a previous category, which I didn't mention there because I knew it was going to come up here of the weirdest opponent. So fun fact, if you're really good at freestyle wrestling, you have a really good chance of being good at MMA. That's just how it so works out. And this is not a complete list because DC had a huge number of wrestling matches over his career, obviously. But you can go and look at a lot of the dudes he fought, especially on the World Stage or U.S. National Circuit. He fought nine dudes or wrestled nine men who ended up competing in M.MA in small and large capacities. Obviously, you know, the King Moe we mentioned.

Pat Cummins, you mentioned they have pretty big records. the other guys all were good. Interestingly, Pat Cummins has the worst record of any of the people who he wrestled who went on to have an MMA experience. But if you add up all of those numbers, all of D.C.'s wrestling competitors, their collective MMA record is 7727 with one no contest from Muhammad the Wall. And, you know, some of these dudes were, you know, 5 and 0, 5 and 0. like there's they had good runs and then ultimately moved out but to me i just wanted like nick feckady was on tough that's nick he he wrestled nick fecky he was nationals in 2006 like it it speaks to what a strong base

wrestling is for for m m m and kind of the success those guys can have so that's the only real fun stat but i'm giving it to you sean you you really dug deep got into the into the juco scoring record so category, near and dear to my heart, the Sean Ferris Award for actor who should play them in a movie. This is named after Sean Ferris, who is the lead actor, plays Jake Tyler and the cinematic masterpiece never backed down, arguably the greatest MMA film ever made. And I have so many choices, but none that I'm in love with. Okay. I have, I have one I'm in love with. Can I go first? Then you can absolutely. Please. If you've got one you're in love with, I have six names listed down here. Okay.

And I'm not so... I could not find one that I really had my heart set on. So this is the category I had to jump on because I was like, I found one. Okay. So now... If you've got to do it. Now, let me give a little... Let me give one side note here that Daniel Cormier hypothetically could play himself because

Daniel Cormier is going into acting. He's going to be one of the lead roles in the new series Warrior from that's getting made right now by Lionsgate. He's going to play a character in the show, not playing Daniel Cormier. Daniel Cormier, Daniel Corme is going to act and play a different character. So maybe Daniel Corme is going to act and play a different character. So maybe Daniel Cormier with a little bit of CGI, you know, do a little bit of the Robert Downey Jr. In Captain American Civil War, they age him down and they can play himself.

So that's, so that's a possibility. But my answer for the guy who can play Daniel Cormier, and I win, I'm just going to tell you how to time I win this kind of area. I love the confidence. Brian Tyree Henry. If you're not familiar with him. No, no, it's a really good one. He was in the tunnels. He's in Atlanta.

He has that. He has a DC face. he looks like DC. I was like Brian Tyree Henry is one of my favorite actors. Incredible actor. Yeah, that's a good pick. Incredible actor has the face and the body of a Daniel Cormier. He's accomplished very, very good.

I think he is like, he is like the Daniel Cormier actor. Like I feel like if they're going to get a guy, Brian Tyree Henry is the guy. You're going to win. Let's just go ahead and say I think that that's, I didn't think of him at all. And so I think that's good. Let me give you my list. of other people though because it was he was uniquely difficult in this regard because DC's body type is is so unique you can't have like just a regular dude like and especially Hollywood leading

men you know they're not usually wider that's just not how that rolls so Brian Terry Heaney's a great choice I the first person I kind of went to was Anthony Anderson Anthony Anderson I have him on my list yeah but like a younger Anthony Anderson I think the one that I I also went to You let Kenan Thompson tried to take a more serious turn just because I think he sort of fits the vibe But I think the one I liked the best

But it's not as good as yours Damon Give me a young Windell Pierce That was who I had settled on If you don't know who Windell Pierce is Man plays Bunk Morlin in the wire And just Just absolutely perfect

For the physical The physical nature of D.C. So that's sort of where I settled I had a couple of others that I'm just not. I wasn't sold on because I couldn't come up with Brian, Brian Tarry. That's it. You did it, Damon. But Sean, I was very proud.

I was very proud of that one. Yeah, you spike that category. But Sean, do you have any honorable mentions to throw in? I certainly can't beat Damon's. I think that's the winner of everything we've said. I had Anthony Anderson, like a younger Anthony Anderson on my list. You're right. It's just hard with D.C.

Like, it's a very particular type of look that I don't think a lot of leading men in Hollywood would have. I had also Cuba, like a younger Cuba Goodyn Jr., but I don't know that I really like that much. The one I settled on was like a young Forrest Whitaker. I had Young Forrest Whitaker even he's a little too tall though. Like he's like a sneaky 6 too, where it's just like that doesn't really fit. But he has the wider face, you know, like he has that wider face that kind of works for DC a little bit. But that was where I settled. No, I had an alternate. I had an alternate. I had one alternate for you guys. I thought this was going to be the other one that got mentioned, so I'm going to

throw it out there, another option. O'Shea Jackson Jr. Oh, he wouldn't be bad. Ice Cube's son. Actually, he's probably, yeah, he's probably the most likely to get the role if they made a DC biopact. Like he's a little wider. He's got a little bit of like a rounder face.

You know? That ice cube is the problem. That's not bad. He just looks like ice cube. He does. He does. But he has that, I think. he could pull it off. That's why Brian Tyre Henry is my pick, but I was like, O'Shea Jackson

Jr. would be like the runner up. Yeah, I think he, he's a really good runner up. I originally wanted to do Winston Duke, but apparently he's like 6'5. Winston Duke is in Baku and Black Panther, for those who don't know. He's, I mean, he looks big and that's why I thought he'd feel, but he's just like actually way too tall for doing it. And Winston Duke is also going to be eventually, well, if it actually gets into production, he's going to be portraying the great Kimbo slice and a, uh, in a, uh, in a portrayal of him. That's a shame because we're probably going to do Kimbo on this show, not too terribly far in the future, because I love Kimbo. And that'll just ruin the category because he's a really good choice for it.

Winston Duke was cast as, now I don't know if the film will actually get made, but he was cast as Kimbo Slice in the biography of his life. It's a good pick for it. I don't know if, I don't know if Gable Stevenson will ever, like, get a movie made about him. But I'm looking at O'Shea Jackson Jr. now, and he would be perfect to play Gable Stevenson. He was very similar. He would be, yeah, he needs to be bigger, but yeah, because Gable's not a small man. But, all right, two categories left him, it's really two, and then the close down. The Cole Conrad Career Change Award was named after Cole Conrad,

Bellator Heavyweight Champion, who famously just quit mixed martial arts to go sell milk. So. By the way, I have a ketchup feature with Cole coming out probably in the next week or two here. Yeah. Great. Did you ever ask him if 2% is there really a difference between, we don't need to get into it. I asked some various milk related questions, yes. Good, that's important.

He's a big fan of almond milk. Ooh, okay. I was going to derail us, but I don't want to do that because we already spent a lot of time on this thing. I have one answer for what Daniel Karmier would be if he wasn't a mixed martial artist. It is low hanging fruit. It's a boring answer. It's obviously the correct answer. But if you guys want to be cooler or more interesting or creative, you can throw it out here.

But I went with the correct answer of he would be a wrestling coach, because that's very clearly what he would be doing if he doesn't move to MMA. Yeah, I mean, it's wrestling coach. It's wrestling coach. I mean, Kail Sanderson, who was his biggest rival in college, went on to become who is the greatest college wrestling coach of this era with Penn State. It kills me to say that as an Ohio State. guy but my god kel sanderson's put together a program that is just unreal untouchable now imagine if he

had daniel cornea coaching at you know some other university recruiting something yeah and and keil just kept still beating him would be maybe i mean maybe he would but like but like imagine dc building up a legit college wrestling program like that and i asked dc about it when we did the uh we did the olympic preview we talked about him because he coaches a gilroy wrestling on california in the high school program and I said, would you ever consider me? He's just like, I just don't have the time. There's just no time for me to like actually coach college wrestling. It takes so much, so much commitment with recruiting and all that kind of thing.

There's just no way he could do it with the queries building, broadcasting and now acting and all the other things he's doing. But yeah, like, it's a wrestling coach. And I think he would have been really, really good. He's turned Guillory Wrestling into a legit, like, national program. I would have loved to have seen him take over like a big wrestling program, whether we're talking about. Like, I mean, obviously, you still got John Smith out there, but like, you know, imagine, like,

imagine if, and listen, I love Tom Ryan. I think Tom Ryan's an incredible coach. He brought into national championship to Ohio State, so this is not a knock on him by any stretch of the imagination. But could you imagine if D.C. had coached like Ohio State and he could rebuild that rivalry with Kail Sanderson in college wrestling, like how amazing that would have been. Would have, yeah, I knew this was going to be the category that was probably the easiest.

It just is what it is. That's, that's what he would have done. which brings us to our penalty. Real quick. I had one. Oh, you do have one. Okay. Because wrestling coach is the answer.

I mean, that's the obvious answer. But if you would do something show business related, I do think he would have made a very good either professional wrestler or professional wrestler manager, like pro wrestler manager. I think either of those he would have reveled in because he loves that stuff so much. And if he had like gone into that straight out of amateur wrestling rather than MMA, he would have been very good at it, obviously. I'm sure that's true.

So, I mean, that's a fair one. I'm sad no one said spokesperson, you know, but you're going off the, the fighters only video. Now, see, I, I just really wanted to bring up the fighters only chicken and cupcakes or whatever that video is because it feels like, I just wanted to mention it. What breaks my heart about you saying that scene, because I agree, I think he would have been incredible in pro wrestling. What breaks my heart about that is because DC doesn't have the body type of Vince McMahon likes and he would have gotten buried. Like, that kills me because I think talent-wise, he would have been incredible. But Vince McMahon, like, if you're not six-foot-two and muscled up, like, he's probably not going to promote you very hard. That's why, like, every smaller wrestler has had, like, very brief periods of time where they've been successful.

And then eventually Brock Leisdor becomes champion again because that was Vince McMahon's era. Now Vince is gone and we're actually seeing, like, you know, other good, talented people get chances. But that would have broke my heart because I think he would have been incredible at that. Yeah, like if he came up now, either in... Yeah, if he came up now either in the Triple H era or like the AW era, like he would... Because you put him on camera. He's so good on camera.

He would have been easy money. I mean, he tried to make real pro wrestling work. Just... And I don't have enough juice. I don't think... I think... I'm pretty sure this is out there already. I'm pretty sure I did.

I did the interview with him talking about it, but there was a point not that long ago where D.C. was in conversation to take over a broadcasting role with WWE. Like, he was in legit conversation to be like a commentator. And what would have been, I think what Pat McAfee is doing right now, I think that would have been Daniel Cormier if he would have ended up. That's when he was with Fox,

and Fox was dealing to get Smackdown. And I think DC, if he would have gotten that, he would have been like in the Pat McAfee role. DC would be so good at that. He would be so good as a per person commentator. Yeah, that's a good call. Man, look at all. I mean, that still could,

let's be clear that could still totally happen for him like that is very much in play for him moving forward but we're almost here we're at the penultimate category it is the phil baroni on the best ever award named after phil barony who is the best ever it is what is you know we talked a lot about the career what is the peak what is the apex what is the highlight of daniel cormi's career i got three candidates for this one i am honestly not sure which one is the correct answer so i'm going to throw out my three if you guys have different things to judge or what the first one i think the obvious one but i'm not again not sure that's right the steep hit me at chich ko he becomes a heavyweight he gets that really doesn't have the stink of john jones he is he's won something entirely

his own he has cemented himself as an all-time great put himself in this top ten fighter all-time conversation if he had retired right there I think that we probably would look at his career a little bit differently than the fact that the two Miatritch losses that came afterwards. Number two, the Hall of Fame induction. Because if you get inducted into any Hall of Fame, that feels like a peak moment of your career. It's just, and it's not for a fight, it's for being D.C. So that's my number two. And number three, probably isn't the right answer, but it's the one that feels right in my heart.

And it's it's UFC 200 and it's not the fight against Anderson Silva, but it's the way Daniel Cormier handled everything that happened because he is supposed to fight John Jones. And on the eve of that event happening, John Jones test positive for a banned substance gets pulled. And we haven't talked about it at all. And I wanted to make sure that this is a thing we mentioned because it is the most heartbreak. Like he goes up and is at the podium addressing the media about this. And you can see just how heartbroken this dude is because he was ready to fight John Jones. Like he, that is what he wanted.

It was not, oh, John pulled out and I'm lucky. Like he wanted to get this back and his whole career gets to some extent entangled and tainted by John Jones's inability to stay on the straight and arrow. But the way he handled that with such grace and such dignity. And it was one of the more impressive moments for my money of really this sport, of seeing anybody handle something like that and do it as gracefully as he did. So those are my three candidates. Sean, you were immediately shaking your head. So I'll throw to you first. What's up?

Frankly, I'm surprised that we've been talking for an hour and 45 minutes on this podcast. and no one brought up the UFC 200 situation so far, because that was one of the most surreal weeks of my career just being on the ground. Damon, you were probably in Vegas for that, too, I would imagine. I was. That whole week was the strangest, just series of events. And in particular, I remember that night when all the news came down about John,

it was just like, it was like late night. Like, we were about to go live on Facebook and do like an end-of-the-day recap for MMA fighting, the team that was on the ground there. I think was me, Ariel and Mark. and it was just like all of a sudden to be ushered into this press conference you had UFCPR who were like coming straight from yoga class and like still like not still wearing like yoga clothes and just all of it and then you saw the embedded video which is probably the greatest moment in embedded history of just Dana telling DC and him stamping his foot down and trying to be like no I'll just fight John regardless like I don't care we just need to do this that is just just so we're clear that is one of the most underrated moments in Mike gangster answer just gangster response to that I do not care, I will fight. DC had some low-key heater,

heater-like statements in his career. Just being in that room for that presser at like 8 o'clock at night as all this was happening was utterly surreal. And that's a great call

to just even mention it because it would be weird if we talked for two hours and didn't bring that up. But I will say when it comes to peak, this is inarguable to me. It's 2018.

It's just the whole 2018 where he defends against Volcan at 205. He wins the, belt against Steppe a few months later at heavyweight, then defends a few months later against Derek Lewis, wins Fighter of the Year, which, by the way, like, a lot of these guys that were doing seem to win Fighter of the Year right before they go off a cliff. It's very strange. Bisbing had the same thing where he won Fighter of the Year and then didn't win again, basically.

And DC more or less had that where he won Fighter of the Year and then he never really won again. But 2018, to me, feels like the ultimate peak DC. It's just that whole year he cemented exactly who he was in the Annals of History. That's definitely the hallmark year of his career. Damon, where are you at on this? I tend to agree with Shaheen that it's 2018 as a year. You know, when you talk about fighting Vulcan Osnomer at 205, going up to heavyweight and knocking out Steve Vermeuch,

and then defending the title and beating Derek Lewis. And that whole year is just incredible. Also coached the Ultimate Fighter, which no one who cares about, but he actually did that also on top of that. So that is probably the right answer, That is probably the right answer. I'll throw out one other small caveat, and my one other one is D.C.'s run from May of 2015 to April of 2017, and the reason I bring that up is because I mentioned it earlier when I talk about the all-time,

the four greatest fights of the Mount Rushmore, D.C.'s career, coming back and beating Anthony Rumble Johnson, five months after he got beat by John Jones, you know, arguably at that point, the most devastating moment of his career, the biggest rivalry, all the bad blood, all the everything to big. built into that fight. He loses. He's getting ready to fight Ryan Bader. You know, that's the guy he was going to fight.

Holy crap. How did we not mention Ryan Bader? Oh, man. The fights that got away. Yeah, the press conference. The infamous press conference where he just bodied Ryan Bader, like just bodied him so hard.

Into this whole press conference. He was supposed to fight Ryan Bader. You know, moving on beyond John Jones. John Jones is going to fight Rumble Johnson, and then John Jones hits and runs, you know, has that whole debacle happen. And he has to step in there and fight Anthony Rumble Johnson for a title that, you know, everyone was already telling him before he fought. It's not legit because you didn't meet John Jones. He just lost to John Jones. And he goes out there and beats him.

And then he has the run where he beats Gustafson. He beats Anderson Silva, the whole debacle at UFC 200. Of course, then you have the rematch with Anthony Johnson, which he won again with Talgate, which he came clean about during the president, during the Hall of Fame and Document. which was one of the all-time Hall of Fame induction speeches was DC. That's got to be number one. That little four-fight run right there after losing to John Jones, and I know it ended with a second loss to John Jones was eventually overturned, but to come back from that John Jones defeat and go on that four-fight run was pretty incredible.

Honestly, I might change my answer to just Talgate being the peak of his career because... Getting away with that. Getting away with Talgate is just... unbelievable the abs like the gall the gall to even try that so shamelessly and just pulls it off is and just gets out of dodge just bolts out of the room at that point we got that we got away you guys let's go yeah you'll hang around after you rob the bank man you got the car and then and then years later at the Hall of Fame induction he tells the truth and he goes sorry my guy he just He also ronble, he's like, sorry, my guy.

That was one of my favorite running bits of the last, like, several years is him trying to stick with it publicly. If you talked to him privately, he would tell you, but publicly he would be like, I don't know what you're talking about. I made weight. He's just like, all right, man, we all watched this video. What are the scale read? What is the scale read, my guy? Like, oh, I'm so glad you brought up tailgate because it, that would have actually been, that should have been outside of the shoe. The shoe is obviously the memorabilia.

No, not the nitpick. Give me the towel from as far as memorabilia. Give me the DC towel as far as that should have been runner up to the shoe. By the way, who did DC coach on the ultimate fighter against? I don't need, this is not even a thing that has registered in my, did he? Coach gets steeping. Yeah, it was steeping and that was ahead of their fight, head of their title fight. The first one.

It was season 27. My God. I had wiped that entirely from my memory bank. Yeah, if my life depended on it right now, I could not tell you who won that season. Like, I would just be like, hey, I'm really sorry. This is, I've had a good run because I can't begin to fathom against on that. I don't even know the weight classes. Nothing.

So, but A.K. Lee, shouts to you for still caring about the ultimate fighter this far along. The two winners that season, just to throw it out there. were Mike Trisano and Brad Cotona. Oh, that was the undefeated season, right? Yeah, that was the weird undefeated season, yeah. I do at least remember that gimmick. And one guy is no longer in the UFC, and the other guy is probably not like,

I'm not sure about Mike Trisano. I know he just lost recently, but yeah, and Brad Caton is no longer in the UFC. So not a lot to remember from that. That was also the season with Luis Pena. Let's not forget about him. John Gunther, Bryce Mitchell. Bryce Mitchell was the,

I was going to say Bryce Mitchell's the only person in that season who actually matters. Yeah, Bryce Mitchell's the only guy that went on to actually have like a legit good career in the UFC. I mean, look, we just, memory lane, just learning things, didn't know about the tough stuff. All right, ladies and gentlemen, we're at the last category. But before we get to it, and I guess maybe we can tie it in, it just has dawned on me while we've been speaking. I don't have a category for this, but I do just want to acknowledge that Daniel Cormier has been an absolute. absolute gym on the mic for his entire career. We've mentioned a lot of it. But, you know, the, as you said, Sean, the, dude, I don't care. Just let me fight him. Like, I don't care if he's on drugs. Let me fight him.

It's an unbelievable line. The, John, you think, John, you think I'm just going to let you come kill me? Think I'm just going to let you do that? Unbelievable line. The iconic John Jones, get your shit together. I'm waiting. Like, that is an absolutely iconic post fight. And because I desperately need to mention this, because I do it any time I possibly can to run down Corey Anderson, for my money, Dan Nukormi has the greatest stray bullet murder of a career when I forget what fight it was. But afterwards, Jimmy Oanna was sitting Cajside and beckoning to him like, let's go, let's fight. And D.C. just has the mic and looks. I was like, Jim Manuel, calm down. Like, you knocked out Corey Anderson. Okay.

And just like, Ether's Cori. It was like, cool. All you did was be Corey Anderson. I do not care. It was just unbelievable. And the Ryan Bader won. I want the easiest fight in the division. This dude was low-key just fire on the mic.

And I wanted to acknowledge it before we bring ourselves to the end. He was like that. His whole career. Like, when I spoke to all these amateur wrestlers for this. DC feature I did a while ago. Like, I got so many stories about how he would just be talking so much trash, not just during the matches, not before the matches, not after the matches, but just like in daily life, when these dudes were all together at the Olympic Training Center

or wherever they were on any kind of camp, anything they were doing, he would just make their lives hell and let them know all day every day, I'm the man, you're not the man, and if it comes down to it, I will destroy you. and it's just like an ever-present thing in their lives of just DC chirping in their ear for years and years and years to the point where like some of these guys were just being like, I started really doubting myself and being like, man, he's really right. Like he's, he has pointed out all these great points about why he's going to beat me. And it's just that's who this guy is.

He is a supernatural competitor. And you wouldn't realize it now. Just talking to him, he's so nice and friendly and it's such a personable guy. But it's just like, if you were to play that guy even now in like Madden or whatever, Like, he's going to make your life hell. And he's going to let you hear about it the whole way. DC, you know, D.C.'s nickname could have been the ultimate ball breaker because that is D.C. Like, he will break balls like nobody's business.

He, I've seen him in person. I remember I visited the set of UFC Tonight one time when I was working at my old job and I got to go to the set. It was during the filming of the Ultimate Fighter season 20. I was going to that premiere. And I got to go on the set of the UFC Tonight. and it was DC and Kenny Florian, and I want to say it was Brendan Shaw. I can't remember who else the third person was there. But even I was just standing on stage, like, you know, talking to the guys.

And he was just breaking balls left and right. Like, he was relentless. Like, and I'm pretty sure it was Brendan Shaw because he was giving Brendan Shaw hell. And it was just like, dude, like, if you thought one guy was going to go on to become a comedian or what, I guess, his passes for a comedian in 2022, and one guy was going to go on to become, like, you know, a commentator, like, you would imagine. DC would have been the guy to be a comedian because he was ripping on every, and it was hilarious. And he wasn't like mean-spirited about it.

Like, he wasn't like purposely mean. But he just broke balls. And he was hilarious doing it. Like, that is Daniel Cormier. He was always that way. Yeah, man. I mean, that's, we haven't even mentioned it because it's not really part of his career so much. But like, he and Habib Nurmberg-Metov, the buddy cop movie of those two dudes just on the mass, AK.

It's one of my favorite things, just watch. those two just jawing at each other on the mats, aka it's unbelievable. And it's, it's just him. It's him breaking balls of the only dude who he can't even really do it against because Habib is Habib. It's not like, there's nothing to hold over Habib. And it's just the best. So shouts to that.

I need to, maybe I'll make a new category, like best quote or something like that. The Ryan Bader, I think the Bader one is probably still my all time. Like that was one of the, that's one of the most demoralizing lines when it has. happened like so dismissing the division so dismissive because it's so not that it's true but that it came from a true place like it's like an mma forum type of white post yeah i was at that press conference because ryan bader was in the back and i was i was back like towards the back and i was i can't remember like at one point i asked a question when that whole thing came up but i remember i walked out and actually talked to ryan after it happens he was so fired up he was so heated and i

And Ryan Bader's a good fighter. This is not a knock on Ryan Bader. Ryan Bader is legitimately a good fighter. Ranked heavyweight right now. Yeah. But in that moment, one of the only times I can remember leaving a press conference and legitimately feeling bad for a fighter, I was just like he got bodied so hard in that exchange.

And it got, and because Ryan Bader's never been that guy. Ryan's never, Ryan Bader's never been the talk. And that's fine. You don't have to be. But it was so. Also, he didn't even have a microphone. Like no one could hear what everyone. has heard the DC side of it, which makes it so much worse.

It was so bad. Literally, I was just like, y'all want to see a dead body? Because it was that bad. Like, I legitimately felt bad for him in that moment. I always, when I think about that, I think, like, Eddie Alvarez said the same thing to Connor McGregor, and those two things hit so very, very differently. Because DC is saying that with, like, like, he means it and he knows, he knows that it's true. He's not just saying stuff.

like Ryan Bader, I would like to beat you up. You're the easiest fighting the division for me. I'm okay calling that the best quote of Daniel Cormier's career, which brings us at last to the final category, more or less not a category. It's just giving us an opportunity to say anything else we haven't about Daniel Cormier. Talked about him for two hours. The man had a deep career with a lot going on.

So the Hoyst Gracie Legacy Award for what moment, image, feeling what are you going to remember the most about Daniel Cormier's career put a tidy little bow on things. Damon, let's start with you. You know, I went, you know, when I did the, when I did the moment for the thing I would take away for his career, most I mentioned the wrestling shoes because I was there. You know, I'm, you know, I have a personal relationship with Daniel Cormier that dates back. Like I said, I was the first person he didn't interview with when he decided to do MMA. I'll never forget. His publicist, who says, from his management company hit me up and she's like, I know you're a wrestling guy.

Do you know who Daniel Cormier is? I'm like, of course I know who Daniel Cormier is. And she's like, well, he's going to be doing M.M.A. Would you like to interview him? I'm like, absolutely, I want to do that interview. And it was the first interview Daniel Cormier had ever done talking about mixed martial arts. And from that day, I've been lucky enough to stay close and remain close with Daniel Cormier throughout the years.

We talk often, we text often. And my best memory of my favorite fight memory of Daniel Cormier to this day is sitting their cage side watching him beat Anthony Rumble Johnson to become champion after the heartbreak of the John Jones situation and seeing him finally become a world champion and the emotion of that and I remember him like walking by

media row after that happened and like just you know because you know again you got to be a professional I am professional I'm unbiased but it was hard not to be happy for the guy in that moment so that's the moment that sticks out but what I'll always remember about Daniel Cormey the best is just the relationship I was able to build with him

throughout the years like he like he Like he, to this day, he still text me. Like, we were talking about the boys, the TV show, The Boys. Like, he was just, like, texting me, like, dude, did you see this episode of The Boys? Like, that's just who Daniel Cormey is. He's, like, an exuberant fan, good dude, like, during Game of Thrones. He would call me, like, days before a fight and, like, want to chit-chat about Game of Thrones. Like, that's Daniel Cormier.

Like, he was like, oh, yeah, I got a fight in five days, but I'm going to talk about Game Thrones because the new episode was ridiculous, and we got to talk about that. That's just always my memory of D.C. he was just always that dude. Like, it was impossible not to like Daniel Cormier. And going back to Shaheen's point earlier about the whole John Jones rivalry, that still boggles my mind. It absolutely boggles my mind how he was the villain because Daniel Cormier is by far

one of the most likable people I've ever interacted with in this sport. So the moment to me is Anthony Johnson, and that's again personal because I got to sit there cage side to watch him do it. It was just cool to see D.C. finally achieved that moment of becoming world champion. but personally it's just the relationship I build with him and just who he is as a person. Like, D.C. is legitimately one of the best people that has ever graced our sport of mixed martial arts. I mean, that's just beautiful.

I should have ended with you. That's going to be better than anything I have to say. Sean, what about you? Yeah, to me, when I think about Daniel, it's just we, and we've sort of touched on it throughout this episode. But you just look at someone who has overcome. so much. And it's similar to the Michael Bisping thing, where it's just there are so many instances in this guy's life, career that could have broken him that would have broken lesser people to the point where it loses his dad very young to a very tragic situation within his own family of someone

basically murdering his dad. And then, you know, he has to deal with that growing up, loses his daughter very, very young, which is just one of the most tragic things you can possibly imagine, behind Kale Sanderson, behind John Jones. And just all of this, in two, for someone to continually pick themselves back up and use all of these, you know, hurdles as motivation as things to just get over and continue on and be able to finally achieve that goal that he finally did against Stepe, which to me that, if we pick up one moment in particular, to me it was Stepe where I was just so happy to see this guy finally achieve something that he knew in his own brain was just his own thing. Because I think even in D.C.'s head, if you, if you would

feed him truth to him, he would tell you he still feels strange about that whole light, heavyweight title he has, but the heavyweight title is his forever, and that's un-asailable. There's nothing you can do to that. It's to see him reach that point so late in his athletic career where he has already been competing at the highest possible level at that point for like 20 years plus, and it took him that long to reach that goal, but he finally did it. He finally did it, and he is that guy that he always thought he was. That to me is such a cool story.

Anytime you can see someone sort of attain that, again, Bisping-esque, coming full circle with it. That's who that guy is. He never stopped trying. At no point in D.C.'s career did he stop trying. And that really embodies and impidimizes to me what a champion that man is because he is one of the best just athletes, just in terms of just general athletes that we've ever seen in MMA. And he reached it, man. He reached the promised land and you can't take it away from it. And to me, that's so cool. Yeah, I mean, that's really, to me, that is it. And you guys both touched on it. And that's when the, the, lasting image I have Daniel Cormey, and there are a lot of bits and pieces. I will always think of

the Habib and Mergamma-Madavre friendship because it's just so joyful and happy. But the thing, the one singular moment, is winning the heavyweight title for all the reasons you said, Sean. I mean, this is a guy who after the second loss of John Jones, I thought was done. Maybe not done with his MMA career, but I just don't know how many times you can. get knocked down your ass in the most painful way, coming forth in the Olympics. Like, we talked about as awful. Coming up short against Kail Sanderson, coming up short time and time and time again. And knowing that you are there, but you can see the promised land, but you can't get in.

The gate is closed to you. And he finally won one that was entirely his own. And the look, and we didn't really talk about this fight other than just mentioning it, the fight wasn't going all that well for him. Like, Stepe was starting to roll when he just got, got the tie up and clobbered him. And the look on his face when he gets,

when he has it, when he realized what he's done, is the best mixture of joy and relief and the culmination of his entire life's work. And I said it a bunch on this pot, if he had retired right then, he could have done so with the career, completely fulfilled. There would have been nothing left that he would have felt that I assume

he would have felt he needed to do. He obviously went on to fight and he added more to his career and that's good. But that is the singular moment that I will take is him raising his hands after just obliterating Steve A. Mietichich to win something that was entirely his. And it's all good. Everything about his career has been excellent, but that is the one shining moment. And that's I'll always think about for DC. So that's where we can end this one because Daniel Cormey is a Hall of Famer, 2018 fight of the year, a lot of things going on. At the end of the day, the most important thing, as far as we're concerned, is that

damn, he was good. So thank you for coming on this journey with me, you guys. Damon, Sean, really appreciate you joining. I know that this is a big ask because we take such a deep dive. And I'm always grateful for those who join us, join me with it. Stay tuned. We're back in two weeks. It's going to be something very, very special.

I'll let you know when we get closer, but we're going to be commemorating something a little bit different. I'm really excited for what it's going to look like. But until then, thank you to listen to Damn They Were Good. And I love you guys.