MMA Fighting - DAMN! They Were Good | How Chael Sonnen Turned His Career Around To Become A UFC Hall Of Famer

Episode Date: May 22, 2024

Chael Sonnen is set to be inducted into the UFC Hall of Fame and so the MMA Fighting crew takes a look back at his extraordinary career, as DAMN! They Were Good celebrates “The Bad Guy.” For the first half of Sonnen’s career, “The American Gangster” was an also-ran, a guy with an unexciting style who nobody cared about. He fell short in the UFC when he got the call and then came up short when he fought for the WEC middleweight title, and it looked for all the world like Sonnen would join the ranks of forgotten journeymen that fill MMA. But then something happened. Sonnen decided that anonymity wasn’t good enough, and he changed his stars, incorporating pro-wrestling style bombast to make himself marketable. His fighting style never changed but his mic work did and suddenly, Sonnen was the biggest thing in the sport, kicking up a rivalry with Anderson Silva that defined the early 2010s of MMA. And while Sonnen never ultimately won a major title in MMA, he did leave an indelible impression on the combat sports world. What were our favorite moments and the best highlights from Sonnen’s career? How did Sonnen pull off this incredible turnaround? And who exactly is Homer Moore? All this and more are discussed on the latest episode of DAMN! They Were Good. Follow Jed Meshew: @JedKMeshew Follow Shaheen Al-Shatti: @shaunalshatti Follow Alexander K. Lee: @AlexanderKLee Subscribe to MMA Fighting Check out our full video catalog Like MMA Fighting on Facebook Follow on Twitter Read More: http://www.mmafighting.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Support for this show comes from the Audible Original, the downloaded two. Ghosts in the Machine. The Earth only has a few days left. Rosco Cudulian and the rest of the Phoenix colony have to re-upload their minds into the quantum computer, but a new threat has arisen that could destroy their stored consciousness forever. Listen to Oscar winner Brendan Fraser reprise his role as Rosco Cudulian in this follow-up to the Audible Original Blockbuster. The Downloaded, it's a thought-provoking sci-fi journey where identity, memory, and morality collide. Robert J. Sawyer does it again with this much-anticipated sequel that leaves you asking,

What are you willing to lose to save the ones you love? The Downloaded 2, Ghosts in the Machine. Available now, only from Audible. Support for this show comes from the Audible original The Downloaded 2, Ghosts in the Machine. The Earth only has a few days left. Rosco Cudullian and the rest of the Phoenix colony have to re-upload their minds into the quantum computer, but a new threat has arisen that could destroy their stored consciousness forever.

Listen to Oscar winner Brendan Fraser reprised his role as Rosco Cudulian in this follow-up to the audible original blockbuster, the downloaded. It's a thought-provoking sci-fi journey where identity, memory, and morality collide. Robert J. Sawyer does it again with this much-anticipated sequel that leaves you asking, what are you willing to lose to save the ones you love?

The downloaded two, ghosts in the machine, available now, only from Audible. We are back! That's right, it is Jedmishu of MMAFighting.com, and it's another episode of, damn, they were good. And this week, we got the Dream Team back together. If I'm the Bill Simmons of this particular podcast, then this is the Sean Finacy and the Chris Ryan of the rewatchables here. I've got Shaheen Alshadhi and I've got Alexander K. Lee because we're talking, ladies and gentlemen, about newly, I guess he's not technically inducted yet, but soon to be inducted U.S. Hall of Famer, Chale P. Sunnan, the American gangster himself.

It just seemed like a good time. At some point we had to do Chale. He gets the nod for the Hall of Fame. Like, you know what? Let's make it happen. So fellas, before we get into the fun games of things today, how are we doing? How is everyone feeling? How are we feeling about shale? Can I start with a question, Jed?

Can I answer a question with a question? You, one, that's the best way to answer any questions with the owner. Just put the onus right back on the other people, keep them on their toes. And absolutely, this is a free-flowing conversation. This is what we're just trying to get to the bottom of things through the scientific method and through talking things out. So fire away. You know, I've done a few of these episodes, Jed, and most of them, I'm super enthusiastic for the timing always seems to make sense. When you asked us to do this episode a few weeks, I think a few weeks, we've got some lead time for this before this actual recording.

I did not understand why are we doing an episode in Shailson. What is happening? Why did we do an episode? Why am I here? I think that's my question. Why are we doing this? We're doing an episode on Chale, Sonnen, because I wanted to talk about Chale just in general, because I find his career deeply fascinating.

And the genesis of this kind of came after he's announced as being inducted into the Hall of Fame for the Anderson Silva fight, right? And so I was like, okay, let's start thinking this through and how this goes. And as you said, the lead time sort of changed things up a little bit based on where this would have been associated for us. We had some setbacks. A lot of stuff happened. But I still wanted to keep it on the books because I think Chale is just a deeply

fascinating individual. And I'll be honest, I don't, you guys, you know, I love everyone. No one's going to hear this. Just between us, Hens here. You guys are the dream team. The two of you are the best in the business when it comes to damning with faint praise, the people on this podcast. So had to get the best people for, I mean, a true.

American original, Chale Sunnan, or I guess arguably not an original whatsoever given that half of a stick was just blatantly stolen from professional wrestlers. It's interesting.

This episode is interesting to me as someone because I've been on a lot of these at this point. There usually is a trend with a lot of the subjects that we do, right? Whether it's a Robbie Law, there are Carlos Condit. It's a certain type.

I will admit when you propose to me, hey, do you want to be on the Chale episode? I was a little surprised because this goes against type, it feels like. Like we are generally doing, I feel like this show was created, right? For the action fighter, the guy who was so exciting, maybe the guy who's going to be forgotten, but had just an incredible run of fights that are very memorable. This to me feels so, I don't know how to word this,

but it feels so the opposite of that, right? this is so antithetical to what damn they were good was created for, but yet it still kind of makes sense because Chail Sondon, for all he may be, right? He was not the most exciting dude in the cage, but outside of the cage, he was the most exciting man in the entire sport for like a good five years, six years. And so I get it. This is a very different type of episode. Like the research for this wasn't a ton of fun. It wasn't a lot of fun. It wasn't a lot of fun. to go back and rewatch a lot of those fights wasn't that great of a time there was a lot of skipping that was happening i hope you guys didn't i know that i have to i hope you guys didn't i watched a lot i watched pre ufc pre w c yeah i watched a lot i watched more than i should have

because after a certain point there was a lot of like okay double double time double time skip just 30 seconds ahead skip yeah 30 seconds ahead but on the flip side they're still on the ground okay on the flip side though the research for all the other stuff, the non-fight stuff, it was a great time. It was a great time. I was cackling. I was having a good old time

watching a bunch of promos that I had completely forgotten about. It was, so yeah, when originally I conceived this, this is going to be the anniversary. This got delayed based on timing, and we tried to record and it couldn't happen. This was going to be the John Jones fight. This was UFC 159.

It was coming up like nine, nine, ten years ago. and when originally this was going to happen, it was going to work out when Chale Sondon fought, you know, for the title, for the light heavyweight title. So it kind of made sense. And I'll be honest,

Sheen, I think I forgot the opposite way. Like you said, this show's about remembering the great action fighters of all time. In my head, Chale was a more fun fighter than he was in the cage. Because I was like, oh, yeah,

Chale's, I don't know, because he was so dynamic outside. side of the cage and because he was so funny and and clever in spots and obviously a little cringe, etc. But that part kind of just colored my perception

of him until I got back in there and I'm slogging through the Nate, actually Nate Marquard's a fun fight, but like Yushin Okami and Dan Miller and some of the WEC stuff and not even to mention like the his first UFC run Trevor Prangley

it's that part of it was miserable. I really hope you guys didn't follow, because I always try and watch as many of the fights I can. I don't ever expect other people to do the same, but like you said, it all came back. And I was all A-OK once we started doing the, all right, now the fight's over. I get to go to the end. And I get to see what Joe Rogan and him are talking about in the microphone. Or I get to look up the Nogara, the famous Nogara speech or whatever that interview that happens is.

and that part was electric and interesting. And so I'm excited to see how frankly this episode is received because you guys are absolutely right. This is not our typical fare here. Yeah, I'm so used to having all these distinct highlights in my minds, Jed, when you bring up, you know, whichever, Josay Aldo, for example. I have like half my work done in my head. And I'm just at that point, it's just sorting it out, maybe looking into some deep cuts, some parts of the fighter's career that I'm not familiar with. And there was some of that with Chale too. It's just there wasn't much more depth than what I feel like I saw,

like what I feel like I already knew. And what I already knew was also, again, she kind of said it, not like the most fun stuff to revisit, at least in cage. But yeah, certainly the circus around it is worth discussing. And it's crazy to think about how his peak UFC moments, how long ago it is now. one major purpose of the show is we do like to sort of remind people, you know, about greats that they have made to sort of follow it out of the collective consciousness. I don't feel like that's happened with Chale, though.

He's quite out there and quite active, though. So I wonder how people are going to are going to receive this particular episode of Dam. It's true because he, you know, he makes like three YouTube videos days very active in the space. And so he is not aged out in the way that some people would kind of given his career because when you do look at it's like the numbers of his career they don't step off the page and so that's kind of the only before we hop into the categories the only question i really have for all is one that we've kind of bandied about we sort of talked about it when the when the hall of fame announcement that happened and it's kind of been a conversation with other people but i do

think it's pretty germane to jail do you think absent the getting inducted into the hall of fame for the Anderson Silva fight, right? Does Chale Sondon, two parts, does Chale Sondon deserve to be in the UFC Hall of Fame? And would he ever individually be inducted into the UFC Hall of Fame outside of the way he is getting in via a fight? That is a crazy interesting question, because that is not something. I spent a lot of time thinking about this topic. That is not something I've given a lot a thought too, but now my brain is running. My brain is sprinting right now. It's difficult because it's like, what does the Hall of Fame mean, right?

Like, we inherently in MMA, we don't have a Hall of Fame. We have a UFC Hall of Fame. That's not an MMA Hall of Fame. The UFC Hall of Fame is already like a weird, bastardized version of what a real Hall of Fame should be because of some of the people who are in it and also some of the people who aren't in it, right? So it's very much a... It's very clearly a political entity.

did they like you, more or less? And so in that respect, Chale to me feels like he is a UFC Hall of Famer because he was such a company man. He carried water for the company for so long. He carried the company through some pretty bleak points where they were desperately in needs of stars and he was the superstar even without holding a title.

Also, just a lot of the stuff he's done outside of it, right? Being such a well-known face for the company in his post career, just like I think that he feels, He typifies like the Forrest Griffin type of dude who would get this sort of recognition. If this was an MMA Hall of Fame, that to me is a different question. And then we go on a different criteria entirely where his merits, like his accomplishments, do not merit him being an MMA Hall of Famer. I think there is a very significant argument in one you could make, though, that his influence

does merit him some sort of inclusion into a Hall of Fame, right? like does just merit him influence or merit him inclusion on the fact that like this man single-handedly sort of served as like a paradigm shift for like a pre-chail era and a post-chail era where he like a lot of people point to the Connor McGregor McCrification of the game but I think really you could go backwards from the chal-sanine of the game like the chal sonning of the game like that that dude really changed the way that I think a lot of athletes and fighters looked at their careers looked at how to manicure individual parts of this and looked at just ways of, okay, maybe I am not Anderson Silva, maybe I'm not George St. Pierre. But there is a way I can function within my

career to A, become well known, become famous, but also B, become rich, become successful in whatever sort of version of success exists within the fight game. Because Chale Sondin, for half of his career, was a random dude. He was a guy who was a journeyman. He was a guy who would lose as much as he'd win. He wasn't a guy that anybody was paying attention to and that anybody was buying, plunking down 60 bucks or 80 bucks to pay attention to it and watch his pay per view. And then for the second half of his career, he is just a transcendent star. He is Connor McGregor before Connor McGregor. He is must see television just because you cannot wait to see what he is going to say. And just whenever that shift happened and it happened right around, I'm sure we'll get into it, but like right

around the WEC era, the beginning of his second UFC run, like, whenever that shift, you. shift happened, it became very noticeable and very apparent quickly that like, okay, people are paying attention here. And then you have a few years later, Conrader come and really perfect the recipe. But just for that sense, the bringing the pro wrestling to this sport in a way that I don't think anybody had really married to such incredible success before Chale, to me, that feels like his influence puts him in there. I would put him in there, yeah, as I talked through it. I'm glad you could work your way through that because that's, I love that sort of, yeah, let me talk through and feel this because that's how I experience this.

Nakey, I want to go to you in a second, but I guess kind of just to prime you here, where I would come down is I think he absolutely deserves to be in the UFC Hall of Fame. I would say that he deserves to be in an MMA Hall of Fame, though I feel like I have a broader view of what a Hall of Fame should entail, where it really comes down to can you tell the story of this sport, without him. And you can, but I don't think it is a true retelling of the story of MMA of Chale is left out of it. Whether he would have gotten in to either a UFC or an MMA Hall of Fame, that's where I have a lot of questions, because that's harder for me to know

what they would have done because it is so political. And she can kind of like you mentioned, but at the same time for as much of a company man as Chale was, and to some extent still is, does not speak ill of them. We are talking about someone who went to work very deeply with Bellator, fought for them a bunch, you know, in the booth doing that stuff, still kind of exists outside of the UFC sphere, even though certainly not unwelcome at UFC events, I wouldn't say. And so it's an interesting question to me whether he would have gotten in outside of something like this.

So, A.K., where do you come down? I think he's getting in. I think he's getting in on his own. The level of fame is so high, the promotional value is so high, the attention he brought to the UFC. You can really make, just in the encased stuff, a compelling case. He fought for UFC titles on three different occasions, very high-profile fights. Didn't come close to winning a couple. Well, we'll debate that later.

Came close to winning two of the three. Actually, that's right. We can start debate that. On paper has very nice-looking wins, right? Shogun is a great-looking win. Bisping, Nate Markort. O'Kami, I think, is a nice win, but those on their own wouldn't get you into the UFC Hall of Fame.

His somewhat complicated relationship with the UFC, though overall, it does feel like they respect him, and I imagine Dana White does like him. So I think he gets in. How far down the road, I don't know, what are the circumstances I don't know, because they don't seem to have, so far, they've had no shortage of fresh inductees and timely inductees. I do have a feeling there's going to come a time when he makes it in. Whatever the UFC's version of, you know, not necessarily being a first ballot

Hall of Famer who might be. He's a down ballot candidate, maybe, second, third, fourth, I don't know, somewhere down the road. So yeah, he gets in on his own. And I guess on this show, it'll become an even more clear why. Yeah. So I think I agree. I think he ultimately would be a down, as you said, a down ballot hall of

famer, right? But at the same time, they're inducting like three people a year, pretty much, is along with the fight. And to some extent, I'm willing to guess that the fight part of that is factored into whatever calculations they're using for these inductions. It's, okay, we don't have to induct X, Y, or Z, because we've got the fight. It's coming in. And so we can kind of, we can back burner this person while we get other people in. But if you're only inducting three fighters a year, at the rate we're at. And like, you got to imagine, I mean, at least every couple of years, there's a new first ballot Hall of Fame or no doubt about it.

When Volcanovsky retires, when Israel Disignor retires, when Alex Pereira retires, these people are all going in immediately. And so as, I mean, the sport just keeps churning. And you've got people with more established resumes than jail. I wonder if he would be one of those guys who kind of just keeps slipping through the cracks year after year after year and never sneaks his way in there. And so it's spent some time trying to figure this out.

And I do just think because he is so popular that ultimately he gets there. But like, look at the last couple of crops of inductees. There's not, it's not like a guy that I would be like, yeah, you should definitely kick out Frankie Edgar to put Chale in the hall. Like, no, you got to have Frankie in. You got to have Jose and have you on it.

Like, you got to have these people in. and there's still plenty of other people out there who deserve their spot who don't. I don't know. Maybe we'll never find out. What if he was the first fighter to make it in as a contributor? Would that be weird? It wouldn't make sense. Given who's in the contributor way now, it would not make sense.

It's a very different criteria. Obviously, it's all non-fighters, a lot of executives and, you know, behind the scenes people. I just, it feels he guess, and then otherwise he's a. modern wing guy, right? What's the what's the pioneers thing? It's like they had to have debuted before. I don't actually know if they have what what the terms for the pioneer wing is. There's a reason like there's a reason like Anderson Silva I think ended up in the pioneer wing and not the modern wing. I do not know what that that line draw is. Okay. I'm just going according to Wikipedia. Modern wing fighters who made their pro debuts, which went in the age of the

unified rules, which went to affect UFC 28 November 2000. So Chale technically debuted in 1997, so he would... Technically did. I also don't... I think they would use his debut fight as 2002 for the circumstances of this. Again, we can sort of get into that first quote-unquote fight. But also, also the contributor feels like it greatly diminishes his actual contributions, right? Because he is a prize fighter.

Like he is the definition of a prize fighter. Like he maximized whatever the prize he was going to be able to get an MMA, that man maximized it to the nth degree. And I think that, like that alone, like to diminish him as a fighter, it feels almost disrespectful in a way that, again, this was so, the way he was able to manicure his run was so singular and is so like, it's skillful in a way that we wouldn't usually consider skillful, but skillful in its own way that is incredibly, incredibly difficult that really no one else

outside of like a Connor or something could really manage so far. I mean, it is, it has always been interesting to me that everyone followed the Connor playbook after Connor came out. And that became a thing where a lot of fighters tried to do the Connor thing to elevate themselves. And to some extent, it's a very similar playbook with Chale, right? Like they're not doing all that dissimilar things. but like chale just feels like it's an easier playbook to follow than connor connor's playbook is entirely natural charisma whereas chale is pre-written lines that you're prepared to to say and just saying them with with the appropriate amount of heft behind it and the fact that it gets chale over is the story of his career to me like just but also like you said she but we've also seen people

bungle that to such a crazy degree right like colby covington's entire career right like colby covington's entire career is like just doing bad chale and it's just it's so painful to watch it kind of worked though it kind of worked but it didn't ever work to the degree that it should have because it's just so hard to deliver that and be believable that's true uh but you know fair fair it really doesn't work for anyone but chale yet we'll see other people can come along and maybe will happen But we've already talked about the categories a little bit, and I wanted to step all over them right there with a couple of things. So let's just hop into it.

We're not going to do a big preamble. We're just going to pop right in. If this is your first time here, damn, they were good. We're going to talk about the career of Chale-sunning through, I think it's 13 categories that I've invented. And the first one that we always start with is the Mount Rushmore. Boys, this was a tough one. I am really excited to see where we go.

It's tough. We've had, I've had difficult Mount Rushmore's before. Robbie Lawler was one that jumped out because he has three fight of the years so all of those are going in and then you have 27 other sick performances that you got to pick one from. Justin Gachey's Mount Rushmore

is going to be the I think the hardest thing I've ever done in my whole life when we ever come to that. This Mount Rushmore was different and hard for a whole separate set of reasons which is finding four fights that are worth a damn is a stretch. It is a stretch here. So I'm excited to see if y'all settled on.

I assume we'll have a little bit of overlap. I want to see kind of where it goes. I did them chronologically, and I have to have a W.C. one because I do think is part of the Chale-Sundan story. And so if I'm taking a W.C. one, I'm going to take Pollyophilio, sorry, Pallophilio at W. W.C. 36, when he should have won the W.C. middleweight title. doesn't end up winning it because, and I still honestly do not understand this, how many years later this is,

20 years later or whatever, because Filio, the champion, missed weight by like a lot, like a lot, a lot, seven pounds. A bad weight miss, because he missed weight, it became a non-championship bout. As opposed to, in every other circumstance we've seen,

the champion is stripped and like the challengers theoretically should be able to win the belt here but not what happened three rounds chail whipped his ass that's my first one do you both do you have this on your your mount rush wars

yeah i had to i had to put that on there it's a bizarre fight moment it's a very weird fight ruling as you said uh paolo filio i'm just glad he'd like he would not get his own damn but he is someone who benefits from us doing shows like this because

he this guy was a really good middleweight once upon a time. I mean, where he was legitimately like maybe a top he was 16 and no at this time world. He had beaten chale in their first fight in a quote unquote controversial stoppage where chel says he did. You kind of hear chale scream. I swear he screams tap. I thought it's pretty clear, but I don't know, maybe I'm just hearing what I want to hear. So yes, they run it back. Uh, paula fights someone in, uh, chale fights someone in between, right? It's, it's not straight back to, okay. So, Brian Baker. And then we have this fight where, uh, as impressive as it was that Chale dominates this non-title fight,

Paul Ophelia was also completely out of his head. I think that's a nice way to put it, not to make light of whatever Paulo may have been going through during this time, but it is strange. The commentary is like, he seems to be talking to people outside of the cage, looking at people outside of the cage, maybe talking to himself.

He looks incredibly distracted. And yes, through it all, Chilstone is dominating this fight and again, wins what should have been his first and what would have been, I guess, his only world title for a major promotion. And he doesn't. He doesn't.

And as legend has it, or according to Chale, Paulo did mail him the belt after. So whoopee, happy ending, I guess. I don't know. No. Yeah, it's a real weird fight to watch. This to me, like, so putting together this hall of this Mount Rushmore was probably one of the more challenging ones that I think we've done.

In that, like, to me, there are three fights on its face that, like, have to be in there. And then the last one is incredibly difficult. It's a real wild card of, like, what you, how you want to. how you want to frame it and what's important to you. But this to me is like outside of the innocence of one, this is the most important one to have in here. Because like it's, it's, it's very difficult for I think a lot of people to feud chale in this way. But in a real, realistic, just as human beings way, this man has such a tragic career, tragic arc. He is such a tragic figure outside of the bombasticness and the circus element to it and all. Just look,

Like the actual what this man is as an athlete is such a tragic figure because we've all heard the story about him just wanting to win a championship and saying to his father on his deathbed, you know, I'm going to become a champion for you. And all of sort of the key notes to that story that we've heard retold every time Chale gets an opportunity to do this sort of thing. And although he never really reached it in the UFC or even in Bellator or anything like this, this was his championship. like this this should be his championship he should be a wec champion he had he should have the belt in a real way rather than a fake way and so like this alone just being the weird circumstances that it was just contributes further to to in my eyes again this tragic arc that this man had over the course of his career and what this should knight should have meant what it ultimately ended up meaning and then what it means to him now looking back because you know you could you could

asked Chale and he could answer, but I do wonder in his moments alone when he's not being the character, when he's not putting on the act, what he thinks of this fight. And if he does consider himself a WEC champion, because I think there's ways you can parse it within your own head if you're that individual of like, yeah, I should be the champion. I beat the champion on the night that we were fighting a championship fight. But it's still that other side of it of like, well, did I? Like, I didn't technically get the moment. It doesn't technically call me a champion. So it's just another tragic element to this very tragic figure in that regard. And I'm To me, it's a very, very important fight for this man because it also is the one that sort of springs boards him into some level of prominence within the MMA space.

Because before this, who was Chail Sondon? Chale Sondon was a guy who went one and two in the UFC flunked out and just kind of was out there doing stuff, a guy who lost to Jeremy Horn three times. All of a sudden, Chale beats Paolo and he's someone who somewhat matters. And then that never ends. look we can all lose to Jeremy Horn three times it's it could happen to anybody it's fine but yeah that so what you said at the end is really why I put this here just because the first paula of a fight is I think the one that actually puts uh puts him on the map a little bit more in the fact that it is for a championship uh and that he was looking good and doing well and then

the quote unquote controversy that that occurs there and then this is the one where it's like oh, that wasn't totally nonsense. He actually just beat a top five middle weight in the world. This is legitimately a highly talented top level athlete in this weight class. And also, you know, a guy who could be a pretty fun foil for Anderson Silva, like just stylistically, given what's going on here. And so, yeah, like, that's, this is the beginning of Chale Sun and the real boy arc, as opposed to the first 20 fights of his career, which were. in Bowdog or doing other stuff, you know?

Where was Anderson at his point in the career of his U.S.C. career when this fight happened? When did this fight happen? I'm looking at so now. This fight happened in what? 2008-ish. This fight was 2008, right?

Anderson Silva in 2008 was he's in the middle of his championship run because he won the belt in seven or six. He's already deep into it. He's already like three title defenses in basically. Yeah. Eighth's when he's doing the James Irvin stuff, I think. Actually, he's five, yeah.

Yeah, so he just came off the James Irvin doing it just to do it. Like, yeah. So he's, he's beaten Dan Henderson. Here's another dude from the same sort of outlet doing the same sort of things. And like the whole lineage at that time was, or the whole lineage is absolutely not the right word there. The whole line was, okay, Anderson's. Silva can't wrestle, here's a dude who can wrestle. And like, now he has beaten Paul Ophelia, one of the top guys. Because Paul Ophiliio versus Anderson Silva was like a thing that wouldn't

have happened, but was like, okay, this could be exciting, right? Like they, they were both BTT guys, I think, at the time. So it wouldn't it happen? Be like the stylistic matchup here is something that's interesting. So you guys remember, so like you were actively thinking of a possible son and silver matchup even back then? I think I was not like high end. Okay. Not like high. Not like high in because the way the WC worked, it was like, okay, well, light heavyweight and middleweight and suck. Right. Like no one cares about Steve Cantwell fighting for the light heavyweight title or whatever. The same thing.

But when he beats Paulofilio, that is when it became a thing because Paulofio was like one of the top dudes in the world. And so you're like, okay, he just beat like he he's a real boy now. Like he he just and yes, Paul Ophileo clearly wasn't his best self and then his career took some real strange turns after but this was this was peak Paul Ophilio for right. So this was a big win for him. My next one, as I said, chronological

and we're going Anderson Silva. One, UFC 117, I'm certain it's on all of your boards. It is the fight that's being inducted into the UFC Hall of Fame. It was fight of the year in 2010. it's a better fight than I remember it being, honestly, when we went back and watched it. Yeah. Because my head canon for this fight is so different than what it actually was, even though a lot of it's true.

In my head is like, this fight actually wasn't that fun. It was just fun because we couldn't believe what was happening. Like, oh, my God, I can't believe this is occurring. And there's certainly some elements to this. But it is, you know, it's a more competitive and interesting fight. Chale hits him on the feet, which I didn't really remember being a thing. Knocks him down. And then of course you get, yeah, knocks down.

And then of course you get the epic defeat from the jaws of victory last, you know, last round heroics from Anderson Silva for the submission. But, you know, we're talking about a top 50 fight of all time and one of the more important fights in the development of the UFC at this stage. So easy include. It's one of the goat MMA moments. Like, it's just one of the greatest moments in the history of this. sport. It's, it's, because also just like, it's hard to, it's hard to realize context this deep

in retrospect when at this point, Chiael Sondon is like Stephen A. Smith to us, right? Like, he's such a pundit rather than a fighter. And he's such a famous person rather than, you know, not being a famous person. But the lead up to this fight was essentially every bit of Aldo McGregor. Like, Anderson Soval was this unbeatable person, this guy who just, this guy who just walked around with an aura of invincibility, someone who just no one spoke to this man like this all of a sudden random American wrestler was coming in and just saying insane shit, just insane nonsense for months, for weeks upon weeks upon weeks upon weeks upon interviews upon interviews, Chal Sondin was letting him have it in like a real way that A built interest to a fight that

immediately like beforehand there was zero interest to it, right? No one, when this fight was announced, no one was like, oh, I can't wait for Chal Sondon versus Anner. Anderson Silva. And then people, or Chale made people care about it, but also just the, the promises that he was putting forward of how he's going to do this so easily, how Anderson Silva is a fraud, how all of these, he's going to make us all realize how not that great Anderson Silva is and he's going to do whatever he wants in there. And then to see it play out in real time for 24 minutes straight was one of the most surreal moments that I have ever experienced in this sport. And I think most people around that time had ever experienced in that sport, because for as well as Chale sold

this fight, and he sold this fight probably better than anyone had ever sold a fight before, up to that point, in MMA at least, as well as he sold it. None of us actually gave credence to what this man had been saying for months. No one had actually considered like, oh, what if Chale's actually telling the truth? And he comes in here and just does every ounce of what he is talking about. And then he's doing it and he's doing it again. And he's doing it again. He's knocking down Anderson Silva, he's taking him down, he's beaten the hell out of him on the ground. And it's going to this fifth round, it's just like,

holy shit, what am I watching? This is a different timeline. Like, I can't believe this is playing out this way. And then Anderson Silva like cements his legacy as just one of the greatest champions of all time with like his Leon Edwards moment, except he's the champion and it's just all together. Like everything wrapped

up in this. It is the this fight alone encapsulate jailed career better than anything possibly could of just every ounce of who he was as an athlete, as a person, as a figure within the sport, bombastic, you know, interesting, compelling to such a crazy degree, also, like, deeply underrated as a fighter, but also, like, you know, like, kind of can't come up in the big moments when the, when the brightest lights are on, like, kind of just comes up short in really weird ways. It's an incredible, incredible encapsulation in this man,

and it's an awesome fight. It's just a really good fight if you haven't watched it in a long time. Do you guys remember where you were when you watched this fight? Because I don't remember a lot of fights. This one I remember vividly. I was just trying to.

I was just trying to. I swear, I'll go first, since my memory is the worst. I swear this was during my Boston pizza era of going to see a lot of events, you know, at the great, great Boston pizza restaurants.

And I, whoever I was watching, I just remember the room being maybe super excited in the first round. I think it was a very heavy, Lee Anderson Silva biased viewing audience and almost silence like very quickly losing hope probably after three rounds. I once the got the championship rounds, there was a sense like, oh, can Angela just can't beat

this guy. Like they weren't waiting for that magic moment. Like, oh, well, you know, every round starts on the feed. He's just going to drop, shale at some point and end this. Hope, I think, had been removed from this venue. And even when the submission happened, there wasn't like a big roar. I don't recall the people I was watching it. There was a big worry.

There was a bit of shock, almost stunned silence. And then some buzz of like, wait, did he tap? Did he really tap? Because there was only the one tap, right? And there was some thought of like, oh, did he really tap? Like, what happened there? He seemed to be complaining after, as he did in several of his fights when he tapped out or a bit of verbally submitted. So it's weird.

I didn't get like that magical moment. I myself was like, holy crap, did that, was that real? And then upon the replays, it washed over me. Like, I just saw one of the most incredible moments. moments in combat sports history, but I remember in real time, it was just almost a dreamlike strange thing that happened. So I don't know how that was for you guys. It was utterly surreal. It was the most surreal moment to me as a fan up to that point. I vividly remember it. I was watching at a house with a lot of my buddies who were into the sport at that time, people

who got me into the sport. And it was a very divided house because half of us, myself included, were giant Anderson Silva marks. Like Anderson Silva, I've said it on other shows, like was my favorite fighter of all time. He was my guy. from the beginning. I was just all in on Anderson Silva. And then the other half of this house was very red-blooded American type of like, I'm all in on Chale's son and Chal's saying, what we've been saying type of thing. So it was a house divided. And the vibe, the roller coaster vibe, like if you've ever seen those win percentage charts from ESPN or whoever of like a crazy game where it's going up and down and up and down as the swings in the game

happen. The vibe in that room was like a win percentage chart because as it starts, all of us Silva fans are like up to here, up to 100 of like, oh, dude, this guy's going to get, Anderson's going to teach this guy a lesson. Y'all just wait to see what's about to happen. Then the first round happens and the knockdown happens and he keeps getting taken down and just swings wildly. It's such the other way to where it going to that fifth round, all of us civil fans are just in stunned silence and disbelief while Sonin fans are just losing their mind and letting us hear it. And then it just boom propels back the other way the moment the submission happens in just an incredible incredible and surreal way where it's just everyone is left speechless essentially and it's just like it's it's why

you love this sport it's those type of moments that swing back whatever that propelling back of that those feelings is just you can't get that really in a lot of other places yeah I was at my buddy George's house. And this is, this was a day before my birthday and, uh, the day before, it was obviously Saturday night. And I was going to go back up to college the day, the next day. And so I went out, I went to his house. We were like 12 of us at his place hanging out, you know, having a few watching this fight. And I was being a little shit heel because, you know, I don't know if you guys have ever seen any content I've ever produced on this website. But I didn't believe it, but it was just much more funny to me to be like, no, Chale's going to just tackle

him. All he's got to do is take him down five times, just meat and potatoes. That's all we need here. He doesn't need to do anything flashy. Just a blast double and 25 minutes of sitting. And for 20 minutes, I am cackling laughing at what is playing out in front of me and just screaming potatoes. It's like, it told you, it's just the potatoes of it all. until Anderson pulls it out in the end. And then I just fall out of my chair because what the hell did I just witness? It is, I mean, it's just an iconic moment. Absolutely unbelievable.

And like that's one of the moments where if that's your first UFC, like I think about this more since 300, right? If 300 was your first event, how are you not an MMA fan for the rest of your fucking life? Like if the first event you ever tuned in, here it's 300, it's a big, event, we're going to go see it with some buddies, and then Max Holloway and Justin Gage do what they did. How does this sport not live inside you forever? And this was one of those moments. If this is the first event you watched because Chale's son had sold it and made you want to go and support

America or whatever your reasons would have been, how do you not end up loving the sport forever as a result? And so easily, I mean, this is number one with the bullet on the Mount Rushmore. I knew everyone would have it. There was absolutely no doubt about this one. My next one, I went the Shogunhuah fight. The last win of Chales' UFC career. You know, this is, if the Pulafirio fight is the one that, you know, got him credence as a real legitimate fighter,

the Shogun Huah cemented it. Like, okay, he went up to a heavyweight and he tapped out Shogun Huahua. Like, we can't, we can't make jokes about him anymore. He is legitimately a world-class fighter, even if this probably isn't the best version of Shogun-Hua. that's ever been still. Doing that to a dude that good is, is impressive. And so Shogun, who is my number three spot?

Shaheen sounds like you agree. A.K., do you also have Shogun? So I left that one off. If only because it just made me kind of sad. That's crazy. Well, I have distinct memories of watching that fight as well and just thinking something was wrong with Shogun. And again, that's not fair to chill.

There's Shogun's entire UFC career. Every fight, something's wrong. I mean, Shokun had another decade in the U.S. He was very successful. He won his next fight and then actually had a bit of a streak at later. But that to me, I don't know if you when you guys did the Shogun Dam, I can't remember if that was your, I'm not impressed by your performance award for him. Because that's, that's all it could think in my mind was if I was on that Shogun episode,

the loss of Sona would have been up there. Because I was so confident that Shogun, even at that stage of his career, would beat Chale. And again, you're right. I don't, I should think of a performance. Yeah, I shouldn't take away from Chales performance, but this was, I don't know, I just, I feel like he beat that really, really under, I don't know, underprepared or just underperforming. So I get it. I get why it's on there. It's an incredible win for him.

And like, you know, I mentioned that as part of his potential Hall of Fame accolades. But yeah, I don't know. It just makes you feel squirrely inside. I'm not sure. It's probably the best win of his career. So that's that you still, you still. It's that of Bisping. No, it's Shogun.

Shogun is the best win of Chale's career because that was at a pivotal point for Chil Sondon, right? Because that is Chail Sondon coming off of the Anderson Silva thing, but also coming off of the John Jones thing where he probably didn't deserve that John Jones title shot, but he's a popular guy. Probably. Yeah, well, I mean, probably didn't. Well, it was a short notice thing, like who really deserves what in short notice situations, but then it extended longer because he was such a popular guy and 151 was such a weird situation. And the UFC had a vendetta at that point. But either way, like, Chale loses those two fights. If Chale loses the Shogun, like, it's kind of over.

He was doing the whole thing of, I'm trying a new division. I'm trying to reinvent myself now after this part of my, this chapter of my story is over. And like, he needed that win badly. But also that was like the big FS1 showcase. That was the first event on Fox Sports One. That was like a gigantic card. If you remember, they blew out that card as big as they've ever blown out any fight night. Connor McGregor was on that card.

He got a walkout on the undercard, like a whole special walkout for the Max Holloway fight. Like that card was a gigantic deal for the UFC because that was there essentially launching Fox Sports One as a network, more or less. Because like FS1 was the UFC at that point. Like they were carrying FS1. And that was a gigantic, gigantic moment for the company for Chao

and to go out there and like choke out showgun in like four minutes. Do it in like a round. Do it really successfully cut up promo. afterwards, like, that was the biggest win of Chale's career. That's probably the best win of his career. And that's, like, the clutchest win of his career. Because he bought himself another, like, 10 years just with that one win.

Like, like, the second arc of him in the UFC at that point goes so differently if he doesn't win that fight. And also, like, not for nothing, but Shogun, like, eight months after that was putting on a legendary fight with Dan Henderson. So this is not, like, completely washed Shogun. Like, Shogun still had some juice left in him. So I don't to me that was one of the three that like that has to be on this Mount Rushmore I think this was after the oh actually oh well the second point with what Dan Henderson was

yeah but this wasn't this was Dan Anderson two Dan Anderson two yeah also the show the status of Shogun being washed is it's impossible to determine because he's kind of washed the moment he leaves pride and then he's just sort of not washed at points but it's just perpetually in a state of like yeah pretty good you know not great Not what we want to be like, what is it? You know, it's, it's hard to know because I was showing that's such a weird career. If you haven't listened to it, go check out the dam. We talk all about it, obviously.

It's a very strange career. Okay, so AK, that means for now me and Sheen are three for three. You have one open dissenting choice at this point in time. Yeah. So let me wrap up mine and then we'll kind of continue. My last one, I agree with you, Sheen. I thought those three would probably be on lockstep on. not saying that's wrong

though again not saying it's wrong uh i rounded mine out with nate marquart ufc 109 just a it was the title eliminator that gets him his crack at anderson silver uh it's the only fight of the night of his ufc career other than the anderson silver fight and sneaky fun when you're going back and watching all

chale sonn's performances buddy there ain't a lot of ones that are fun to watch trust me i just did it however it's like eight hours of my life of chale son and fighting or whatever time it is. But this fight was really fun, made more fun by the fact that Marquart kind of almost gets a finish late after losing the first two rounds pretty comprehensively. Mark Hart gets a reversal, pours it on him down the stretch, and bloody batters chale pretty hard. Chale's so busted up afterwards, he can't even like make a fun mic promo.

It was just like, yeah, I got hit real hurt, hurt real bad in the first round, and he almost finished me there. I just had to hang on. I knew that I had to try and make it 20 seconds, and it was real tough. And so a sneaky fun fight and just one of the rare fun fights that I could round out his Mel Rushmore with. So, Shaheen, are we four for four? So I didn't have that one. I went between that one and this other one that I ended up going with.

And that was the Brian Stan win. Okay. AK then. Did you have Nate Mark Ward on your list? Yes. And like Shaheen, I almost had Brian Stan instead. But I did go with Nate Markort. Tell me your thoughts on the Markort one.

And then we can get to Shaheen and Stan. He talked, Chal Snowden talked so much shit before the Markhorst, right? It wasn't the first time. He has been cutting, if you go back to his YouTube video, like pre-UFC, pre-WC, he kind of has that persona. It's not quite as honed. It's not quite as loud. But he was very much.

Bombastic. No, but he was a guy who tried to kind of slip some cashphrases in there, have a memorable pre-fight quote. You know, it's good. He wanted to, from his earliest days, he wanted to promote himself as a high-level prize fighter, and that's great. I just remember before the Nate fight,

he was talking so much. This was when he was saying, I'm going to beat Nate and then I'm going to fight Anderson Silva. He had set his sights on Anderson Silva, and again, I just wasn't paying enough attention to show at the time because I was like, what? Like, that's crazy. He's not going to get that fight.

One, he's not going to beat Nate, and two, Anderson Silva would annihilate him. I was looking at the odds going back, And it looks like Chale was about a four to one underdog. So I wasn't alone in this. I wasn't alone in thinking like Nate's a pretty quality fighter. He's about due for a rematch with Anderson. The first fight with Anderson obviously did not go his way.

But, you know, it had been quite some time since then. I always thought him and Nate would fight again. And I thought Chil Sonas just a stepping stone for Nate Marcourt. And did not go that way at all. Sonan was so relentless, so impressive. And I couldn't believe it. I said, wow, this guy talked to all this crap. I thought he was just mouth.

I knew he could wrestle, but I was like, Nate has a pretty good submission game, maybe not off his back, but I thought he'd find a way to tap out Markort, or if not, just smoke him on the feet. Didn't work out that way, man. And again, to this day, so many things about Sonan's career shocked me, and this is right up there because I did not think he would even get to Anderson Silva. I had a lot of respect for Nate Markhor as a fighter. And this kind of put, sent both their, this was kind of a defining fight for both of their careers at the time.

and sort of where they went afterwards. And I think that the point about Mark Ward is one that is easy to miss. Yeah, he was like, maybe not consensus, but widely considered like a top three middleweight. Like he had lost Anderson Silva, but he had a huge run in Pancras and that kind of built him up. And then a good run the UFC to get into the Anderson Silva fight and a good first round and gets killed because that's what Anderson did to people. but like other than that he had won he lost the talus latest he had two points deducted for spiking or whatever but like we all know he he won that fight

and he had beaten other good dudes he was just coming off annihilating demi and maya three spectacular knockouts he had going to this the martin cammon knockout was great the wilson guvaya people know they never replay this finish anymore it's like a super combo he unleases on wilson guvay it's so good and then damian mya 21 second one punch chaos i'm like this guy's gonna fight arms again Like a comic book knockout.

Like Damien Maya is knocked off of his feet and unconscious. It is so like he's, this is at the actual peak of Mark Hart's career. And Chal Son is the man who wins it, which is a very strange thing. So, okay, let's go to you, Shaheen then, because you've opted for Brian Stan instead. Tell us why. To me, the Brian Stan win, I don't know if it felt more important because obviously we don't get any of this if he doesn't win the Markhart win. but the Brian Stan win was maybe the one he needed the most to be able to perpetuate all of this

and have the type of career that he had because that, like, if he goes out and loses to Anderson in the way he did, and the Brian Stan fight is the next one and he loses to Brian Stan, he is suddenly, like, everything is diminished, right? It was a fluke, it was a fluke performance. Chale wasn't ever that good. Like, the way he would be, been written off would have been immediate and late.

legendary. That's just what we do in this sport. So for him to come out there and beat a very respectable name in Brian Stan to validate what he had done, validate the persona, and really just to keep the story alive. Because at that point, Cheo versus Anderson is the story. It is the story at MMA. It is the biggest story. And with every performance from either of them, the story escalates because it feels like it's careening towards this inevitable rematch. So to be able to come out there, validate himself who he, what he had done, validate the persona. and just keep the story alive, that to me felt like probably the most important of the non-Big three sort of Mount Rushmore things already.

I don't hate it. I understand the impulse. You're right because when you were talking, I was thinking, can you imagine if this happened today? There's no chance he's fighting Brian Stan. They're just booking an immediate rematch. They're not going to risk losing the heat for that rematch, even with, you know, the son and testing positive for elevated testosterone, et cetera.

they're still just waiting that out and they're like all right that's next up we're doing that right away and so it is a really important one i think you're absolutely right with that is if he does lose everything falls apart so a k complete your mount rushmore for us then uh did you all did your brian stand complete the rushmore or no i did you go for a bell atore no i i couldn't i couldn't it's tough i thought about it and i couldn't do it either it's listen it's i remember Mount Rushmore sounds so basic, right? It's this stretch from 08 to 2012. Like that is our Mount Rushmore of Chalzot.

But again, it's hard to go away from that. Like if we want to be cute, we could pick some random fight from his regional days. We could pick, like you said, we could have gone the bell to our way. But if you're really looking for the most significant moments, the must watch moments and fights of his career, it is this kind of four-year stretch where he fights these big names. It's just how it is. Not every Mount Rushmore is going to be this cornucopia of like very, like, miscellaneous delight. Some of them are just, yeah, we've got to take this chunk of this guy's career, and this is what tells a story.

So it's right in there, Michael Bisping, January 2012. Controversial decision for sure. Do you think he won the fight? You rewatched the fight. You rewatched it, do you think he won the fight? I'll say this. You have to think under today's, with our current understanding of how modern scoring works and with the tweaks they've made to the modern scoring, Bisping won rounds one and two.

Yes. I mean, even back then, there's always been an emphasis on damage or impact over grappling. But maybe the language is, you know, it got tweaked a little bit, the criteria that tweaked a little bit. So that's how you could justify it being back then. But I think even under the way the scoring was, you could definitely find it as a win for Bissing. But this been one of a fight and Chale will tell you that Bisbing won that fight. Like literally, Chale will freely admit that Michael Bissing should have won that play. Shale kind of admitted.

It is, I think it is a very clear, in today's, under today's guidelines, it would be a robbery. Like Bisping would have gotten robbed. I think back then it is at least defensible, but still Bisping won the fight. But also there's an element to it where, because I remember watching this in real time and being like, oh, fuck, did Mike just ruin everything? because the whole sport was careening towards this rematch and no one in the world outside of Michael Bisbing's family wanted Mike to win that fight because it would have instantly spoiled everything

that we had just built for like two years. And so I remember this being a somewhat controversial decision but also one of those that everyone was like, no, no, nothing to see here. Let's keep it moving. Keep it moving guys. It was absolutely that. It was like, oh yeah, that might have not been a great.

great decision, don't care at all. We're fine. And ultimately... Can you imagine him having to fight twice again before getting the rematch? Two potentially very dangerous fights? Can you imagine that today? Yeah, it would have been nuts. And ultimately, it's worked out better for Bisping, right?

Because if Bisping wins, then instead of fighting really old Anderson and still should have lost, he would actually fight like not nearly as old Anderson and gotten brutally knocked out and never have become a champion. You don't know that. You don't know that, Chad. You don't know. Look, we can't say for certain, but I'm... That was Pete Caterson. I'm really confident that the husk of Anderson knocked that man semi-unconscious and probably should have won the fight.

Peake Anderson is doing horrible, horrible things to Michael Bitts being so... But I think controversial... I think controversial scoring or no. I think that's why I think this is a must-wash chill fight because whatever it was, again, he just did... He had this one game plan and did not deviate from it. even in a fight where probably it wasn't going his way, there's no other option for him.

It's put his head down, go forward, throw some punches in. He does use leg kicks a lot. Don't some leg kicks in and just keep digging and digging and digging and digging. And if it goes, you know, if it goes your way, great. If not, it's not like he has any other choice anyway. The force of will to somehow get this decision, I think is what's so impressed to me, even if objectively looking at it, he kind of got his face punched in quite a bit. It's not what the judges said and it's not what history says.

So this is a solid matter for the bad guy. Scoreboard. Scoreboard's all the matters. Scoreboard, yeah. Normally this is where I'd say honorable mentions for the Mount Rushmore, but given that it was hard for me to get to four fights, I'm going to say we skip honorable mentions and we move to our next category because what was your four again?

So your four was. My four was, Polofio, the second one, Anderson Silva, the first one, Shogun, Nate Mark Hart. Okay. It's my four. And sheen and I have the four. same except for he's swapped out

Brian's name for Nate Markhor and you have swapped out shogun on mine you swapped out Shogun for Bispin. Yes. Which I think all of those are defensible and that's fine. Hit pause on whatever you're listening to

and hit play on your next adventure. This fall get double points on every qualified stay. Life's the trip. Make the most of it at Best Western. Visit bestwestern.com for complete terms and conditions. You know what's better than the one big thing? Two big things. Exactly. The new iPhone 17 Pro on TELUS's five-year rate plan price lock.

Yep, it's the most powerful iPhone ever, plus more peace of mind with your bill over five years. This is big. Get the new iPhone 17 Pro at tellus.com slash iPhone 17 pro on select plans. Conditions and exclusions apply. Our next category, the first one is a big one. Always takes the most time. We're going to zip through these a little bit quicker because we're trying to not have three-hour dams anymore. That's a personal goal of mine for this year. And our next category is the I'm not impressed by your performance award. I'm not impressed by your performance. Shout out to George St. Pierre. This is really easy. I will be absolutely stunned if we didn't all choose the same thing here. You got too creative if you didn't. It's Anderson Silva too. And the spinning back fist of doom

that really just heaved all of Jill Sondon's title aspirations away, seemingly out of nowhere, because, Sheen, to your point about the first contest, he's talking all this trash, he's saying what he's going to do to him, and he gets in there, and he does it, and you are impressed by the nerve and the verve of this man. And then he talks that same trash,

even more so, the buildup to this fight, he's turned the notch up to 11, and he gets in there, and he doesn't have the same, immediate, I mean, he still actually has a lot of success in the first round, but it's not as cleanly dominant, and he panics

and throws, I genuinely believe, as I was looking through his fight, the first spinning back fist of his career is attempted against Anderson Silva. And much like Francis Inganu, who decided to shift to South Paul because Anthony Joshua wouldn't see it coming, this did not

work out for Chale. He falls over and then gets obliterated by Anderson moments after. For the longest time, this was my example of the worst fight IQ in the history of the sport. This and Chris Wydenman's wheel kick against Luke Rockhold were neck and neck for the worst in-fight decisions that have ever been made. But we did at U.S.C. 300 get at least a couple of contenders now with Holly Holm

deciding to clinch against Kayla Harrison, two-time Olympic gold medalist. and just everyone who decides that fighting Alex Pereira in a stand-up match is a good idea. So shout out to you, Jamal Hill and Sean Strickland, for joining this pantheon of terrible fight IQs. But AK, there's got to be, I'm not impressed, right? Yeah, this did not. Just took about two seconds of thought. It's crazy rewatching it. You can see Sonan loading it up.

You can see, this wasn't like, it feels like this. He had a plan. He had a plan. He had a plan. But he had a plan. I don't want to say before the fight he thought it was an option. But once he backed Silva up, you can see him very clearly shift like his hip, shift his shoulders.

And he's loading this back fist up. And if we could see it, Anderson Silva definitely could see it coming. I'm willing to wager, I guess. That bad boy did not come close to connecting to doing any damage to Anderson Silva. And the weird thing is I say it was loaded up. But it looks like Sonan was unprepared for it because he fell, as you said, ass over tea kettle, takes a knee to the chest. It almost looked like hit him in the head, but I think pretty clearly the knee to the chest.

He's really badly hurt after that. He does get up and just get smacked around some more. It's bad. It's bad, Jed. Shouldn't have done it. It kind of robbed us, I feel, of a compelling second fight. It did, too. Like, that was the thing.

And you mentioned, and I didn't even say this. The fact that he does it after he gets Anderson backed up to the fence. and Anderson is sliding out on him. But the goal, if you are the wrestler, is to get them back to the fence because that's when you can shoot and get attacks going. And if you're like, everyone who ever fought Habib,

all they would talk about is, I can't step behind the black line because that means I'm near the fence and then I'm going to die. And Chale gets him there. And then instead of shooting, maybe like an off to the side, not ideal shot,

he's like, now's the time. Now is back fist central baby. And it's just, it's just hilariously bad. So, Shaheen, this is also your I'm not impressed, correct? Yeah. It has to be.

Yeah. I remember being so disappointed. So disappointed. So, like, profoundly disappointed. And again, I am the Anderson Silva guy. I want good things to happen to Anderson Silva always and always in all times forever. I was so mad that Shail did this.

It felt like it robbed us. I think you were the one that said that and that's exactly what this felt like. It felt like the most anticlimactic thing possible to the biggest fight imaginable because for two years, all we had talked about was this fight and then for it to end in this way

it almost felt like, wait, hold on, like we're gonna restart this, right? Like this isn't over. Like we're gonna just do round three, right? Like this isn't the end of this and then it's the end and it's just like, what the fuck, man? Like, come on, dude.

Like, how did you just do this? I just remember being very mad at Chale, even though I wasn't rooting for. No, I think we all were, because everyone wanted, whether you were an Anderson or Chale guy, you wanted the same as the first fight because it was so epic. And it had been built to such a level, and then we didn't, it just landed like a wet fart, you know? It was tough. Tough scenes for Chale.

Easy choice for the category. I will say, there is a great honoreral mention that I almost gave it to, and it's losing to fucking Tito Ortiz. Oh, yeah. Losing of Tito Ortiz after 10, like 10 wanting him in the wildest best press conference ever is just like, that's peak jail. Disagree. It's peak chale. Disagree.

I think that that was committing to the bit because beating Tito Ortiz, like, you just let Tito have the win. Tito needs the win. He was emotionally distraught from it. Tito was coming into that presser with the whole, like, I got to beat him to save my, like, career or whatever the nonsense was i made promises and he beat me in wrestling and i've never i've lost sleep over it i think tito needed that win more so chale losing i think that's just doing a good turn for a fellow hall of famer there was a lot of talk after of like did was this fight fixed did chale there's always fixed talk like let him out of trouble did chale even tap

what was i think there was like did he even tap or something well oh sorry no it was the hold wasn't in The choke wasn't in. The choke wasn't in. The choke wasn't in. The chel tapped prematurely. Chelle was a big favorite going into this too. I'm checking here. Like minus 250, minus 260.

He was very much expected to beat up Tito Ortiz. And the state gets submitted in just over two minutes. So it has to be mentioned among his most embarrassing and low moments, despite your positive spin on it, Jed. I mean, I don't know why Chale was such a big favorite. Tito had been doing God's work in Bellator beating Alexander Schlamenco, Stefan Bonner. We all remember the Bonner build, the infamous faceoff. Just McCulley. Yeah.

One of these days I'll have to do a Tito Dam. Oh my God. The best quote section on that is going to be a two-hour podcast alone. It would be insane. Okay. Our next category, the Who the Fuck is That Guy Award for the strangest, weirdest opponent. Who the fuck is that guy? If you take the deep dive through the Wikipedia, through the topology, and try and find who you can.

I got two answers here. Does anyone want to jump in first before I get to mine? Because I got two answers that I feel very good about both of them. I got the right answer. I have the right answer. You have the right. So I think there is the right answer, and we might have the same one. I just also have a guy who has to be mentioned because of certain reasons.

So, Sheen, if you've got the right answer, tell me the right answer. tell me the right answer and I'll tell you if I agree. Okay. So I'm going to take you on a journey with this one. Paint us a word picture. If you were around in the early aughts in the Arizona... Oh, you have the right answer. I have the right answer.

If you were around in the early aughts in the Arizona mixed martial arts scene, you will be intimately familiar with a man named Homer Moore. That's the right answer. You could rarely go to a rage in the case. event without seeing Homer Moore fight. He was essentially the local champion. He was the local tough. Like he was the dude. I just remember when we had those two like that was the fun. It's different era. It's entirely different era. But like he was the draw. The draw was oh who's Homer more fighting this time who's Homer more destroying this time more?

It's just he was a very physically imposing dude classic early two. 2000s, giant beach muscles type of wrestler who's just like probably on all sorts of gear, who's just crushing dudes who you'd see it like the local bar basically. He fought like once in the UFC. He was a real

weird guy. He really really wrote his own Wikipedia page. He so did and it's awesome. If you read his own Wikipedia page, there are some dingers in there. It's the best. My favorite sentence from this Wikipedia page, I don't even know what this means. Moore's champion stat is now part of the National Wrestling Hall of Fame and Museum in Stillwater, Oklahoma, having a record of this magnitude clones other major sports at their pinnacle.

See, my next, my favorite one is the actual next line. Moore reached nearly 100 fights in his M.A career. And then a half a paragraph down, you see that he has 37 professional MMA. It's just incredible Wikipedia, really. Having a record of this magnitude clones other major sports at their pinnacle. I don't know what that sentence means. Homer Moore was also, if you remember what X-Arm is, he was an X-Arm champion. That's the right answer.

That's why this is the right answer, because he is the original X-Arm champion. And because I'm a professional, I dug up the clips. You threw out X-Arm in a random Slack message on our private channel the other day. and I was like, this dude went down the Homer Moore rabbit hole because there's no way in hell he's seeing this without, he's remembering this without seeing it. And so essentially, like, Homer Moore, very, very weird guy, very weird guy. He fought Chad.

He missed weight by like eight pounds. Chale did a video about this man for some reason in 2019 where he talks about this fight with Homer missing weight by eight pounds because Homer just didn't want to cut. And it was like around the holidays. And they had like a whole food spread at this Hawaiian event. And Chale was like, I'm not going to eat because I'm trying to cut weight. And then Homer's just scarfed down on this food.

And afterwards, he's like, sorry, Chale. Like, I just didn't want to cut the weight. And Chale's like, dude, that's great. But I wish you had told me beforehand because I would have eaten some of this delicious food that I saw you eating. And so Homer Moore in 2014 in 2014 is arrested for a 1999 cold case murder in which an individual is murdered with a bag over their head and left in a. car, like a, like the back seat of a car or like a trunk of a car. Like I think the trunk of a car, it seems like a very grisly situation. It happens in 1999. Homer Moore is arrested in 2014. He spends two years in jail and then gets released and it turns out it wasn't him even at all.

He wasn't involved in the whole thing. The man had two years in jail. He is free now. He's walking around. You could see him on Facebook. He's out there doing stuff. Altogether, the story of Homer Moore is just very, very bizarre. And I will just add that this video, Chale did for some reason on this man in 2019, is called, Do You Remember Homer Moore? And it starts with saying, Chale's first thing is, speaking of apologies, and he's like framing this as if he needs to apologize to Homer Moore, it's a five-minute video, never once apologizes, never gets to any kind of apology at all.

It's just, the saga of Homer Moore is just tremendous. Homer Moore is absolutely the correct answer. We can't undersell the X-Arm part of this because there are certain people listening, probably most of them, who weren't fans of M.M.A. at the time that X-arm was happening. And if you don't know what X-arm is, you're trying to think, what could X-arm be? It's arm wrestling. Only there are multiple ways to win. You can win via pinning the opponent's arm. By arm wrestling.

by arm wrestling or by knockout because while your arm wrestling arms are locked are tied together your open arms are gloved and you can hit each other and so no one is ever arm wrestling because why would you do that when you can punch the other person if you think about trying to arm wrestle while getting hit in the head it's real difficult but because they are literally tied together what it just ends every one of them turns into two dudes holding hands and trading punches with each other with a table in between them

so they're not getting good punches because they're leaning away and trying to find the angle and you can go see Homer Moore's heavyweight winning performance it is on the YouTube and it's just the best it's so it's so electric and as I watched it all I thought

was I mean this is an Art Davey product. How did Dana come to slap fighting when he could have just taken X-arm to the next level? And would have had our full support. Full support. He complains on that. It's the silliest thing I've ever seen. It's so fun. We would have been pushing X-arm. Every fight is like the worst reenactment of Fry Takayama that you can possibly imagine. It's horrible. It's the best. Jet, you did not, you know what I mentioned, you could also win by submission, by the way. You are allowed to throw up a flying arm bar and attempt to, this is a thing. This is, you could win by TN,

CAO, or submission. Submission, is an option in X-Arm. Also, let me point out, because you mentioned him in passing, but I don't think it, most people would have caught it. Like, this is an Art Davy production.

If you don't know who Art Davy is, Art Davy created the fucking UFC. Like, he was... You see Hall of Fame. He created all of this. It wasn't like Dana White or something. Like, Art Davy, this was his baby. And so you got to imagine,

this man makes the UFC, sells off the UFC before it becomes what it becomes. And then it spends the rest of his time trying to recapture that magic. And by doing that, creates this wonderful, wonderful product called X-Arm. It's a very, very silly, silly thing.

But it's wonderful. So that's the true answer, a.k. who was your answer if you didn't have Homer? Just a couple of random notes. I didn't know he fought Alexei Alenic. I don't know how this escaped me. I'm sure it's been mentioned on broadcast like whenever Olinic fights multiple times

and I just glossed over it. Did not know that fight happened. It's on YouTube. People can watch it. Alinic had not mastered the Ezekiel. choke yet. I think he had won before this fight with Sonan. Because if he had, I'm sure he would have won, but instead he just gets... It's super weird

to think Chale Sonnen, man who gets submitted managed to not be submitted by Alexiel Linney. Yeah. And the other one is, I need to see this Justin Bailey 42nd flying knee knockout. I don't think this really happened. It doesn't exist.

There's no footage. I looked forever. It doesn't. It doesn't. I've seen forums talking about. All I saw was forums asking for the footage. I spent a lot of time trying to dig it up. Couldn't find it. I don't think it's real. It's not incredibly unreasonable. Chale actually throws a flying knee in quite a few fights in the UFC and before.

He throws. This is a thing he throws. It doesn't look particularly good, but it's the thing he throws. So it's very possible some random Joe Schmo with a zero-on-zero record at the time when he fought Chale, got caught by the Chale flying knee. But I need to see it. It existing, this happening and not having any footage of it is upsetting. So that's a strange one. So for obviously a future category, I was desperately hunting to find this.

Oh, that's it. Yeah. Okay. Finally found ourselves a highlight, but just couldn't, couldn't dig it up. Just couldn't find it. Sure Dog has it. Topology had like this is a registered. They don't believe it.

If this was BS, either Sherrodor or Topology would have looked into this and said, oh, no, apparently this didn't. As far as they know what happened, record keeping back then, probably a little spotty, but. Definitely a little spotty. I do have to throw an honorable mention. The number two guy, if it's not going to be Homer Moore, a man who is, we've talked about on a previous dam, actually on like the second ever damn, maybe was the third ever dam,

a man who has fought Chuck Cudell, a man by the name of Amar Suluwev, who the reason he is worth noting is because after having a relatively successful in the May career, he allegedly, we can't prove this, became a contract killer for an organized crime syndicate in Russia with ties to Vladimir Putin and was on trial for that

until such time as he contracted pretty serious case of cancer and ultimately died kind of before that ever got resolved. But like, based on the reporting, sure seems like he was a contract killer for Russian organized crime in Russia. So, you know, if you're ever tied to organized crime in any fashion, you're probably going to be a who the fuck is that guy. That's just going to be a thing that happened. So

our next category with the Randolplex Award. This is the hard one, boys. It is for the best career highlight, the best single highlight from the fighter. And I'll just, I'll say right now, I went Tim McKenzie. You fought him in Bodog, fight

Costa Rica, finished him with a Bravo choke. And this fight's on YouTube, very easy to find. It's just actually like a fun thing to watch because it's a very quick fight. It's scenic. I don't know if you guys remember when Bodog fight used to kind of do Costa Rica stuff. It's an outdoor venue

like on the water basically so you get this wonderful view. Pretty decent production value frankly and Chale has a front headlock on Tim McKinsey hits an inside trip with the front headlock right into the Bravo choke and finishes

them and then because apparently Tim McKinsey breaks a rib or something they they do the full stretcher like they stabilize his head and cart him out in a stretcher after getting Bravo choked. So there's just a whole lot of stuff happening. And in an absence of great highlights, it's the one I selected. A.K., what about you?

This wasn't hard for me. Same. He wobbles Anderson. That's the one. Wobbles him, man. That's the one. He legitimately wobbles him. Like, this is going to, what the hell?

Like, I keep saying can't believe a lot in this podcast. I apologize for me. I've said that so many times. But this is of the unbelievable moments, this is. probably number one. He wobbles him on the feet. Anderson, probably not taking him seriously. Chale very likely... He didn't take him seriously.

He had like a major staff infection. He had a major stash infection. Chale very likely gassed to the gills. Not very likely. He was absolutely gas to the gills. He got caught. Yeah. There's a lot.

If he won that, he has admitted it. You don't have to like couch around this one. He'd be like, yeah, totally did that. If he won that fight, if that fight had lasted another minute and he won, he wouldn't have been champion anyway. He would have lost the type of. almost immediately. I mean, it would have been champion for like six days.

Yeah, we would have counted it, I think. I think we would have counted it. I don't know if they would have said no contest and just like a little bit of a contest. No, no contest. Technically not a champion, but yeah, but the wobbling of Anderson, holy crap, that's just great stuff and the start of, again, one of the most dramatic roller coaster rides of a fight in combat sports history. Yeah, that's the pick.

This was, to me, very easy. I spent 20 seconds on this because what's the one trail highlight of the? him doing well that you have seen the most in your life. And it's him knocking down Anderson Silva with a right hand just out of nowhere after talking all this stuff. It's just because the UFC doesn't have access to Bodog fight video archives, you know? I think that's his most famous highlight outside of losing. Like the losing obviously is the big one, but like.

Ouch. Outside of loose. But you know what I mean? Like when you see Jailson and highlight, it's either the Anderson Silva finishes or it's him knocking down Anderson Silva. Like those are the ones that you see. you're not wrong. It's just harsh.

That's just a harsh one framing of it. All right, our next category, the category we're probably going to spend the most time on, frankly, so I wanted to try and get us here quickly. The baby nuts.

You got baby nuts, Donna. Let's, I show my nuts right now. Let me see your nuts. You got baby nuts, daughter. You got baby nuts.

I bet you my nuts bigger than yours. Come on. I bet you might, excuse me, boys. You do what you do. My nuts big than yours. Lord, for the best quote buyer about the fighter and fellas,

this is the category where you spend all the time, at least you spend so much of the time in the jail, because I don't want any one of us to dominate the conversation. I have so many quotes pulled. I figured here's the way we can do this, because we probably have a ton of overlap here. Just each, you say one, and we'll go round the table until we get out all of the quotes that we have here.

So I'll lead us off, and I'm leaning off with the most iconic one for my, you know, my money, the one that should be carved atop his tombstone whenever Chale does pass. And it's Anderson Silva, you absolutely suck. It is the intro to the Michael Bispie, after the Michael Bisping win, when he is prepared to now set up the rematch. Anderson, Sylvia, you absolutely suck. The biggest rematch in the history of the business, but we're up in the stakes.

I beat you, you leave the division. You beat me. I leave the U.S.C. forever. Anderson, of course, did beat him. He didn't leave the U.S.C. forever. That's because it didn't happen in the timeline, as Chale once explained. And so that offer got rescinded and they, you know, whatever. But one of the most iconic post-fight speeches of all time,

if I only got one Chale quote, I think that has to be it. Do you guys agree with me? Is that the number one chale quote you take? That's the most iconic. The only, the only clarification, is that not after the Bryant's sand fight? Maybe it is after the Brian Stan fight because I think he was too tired. He was too tired after Bisping.

And Bisbee was like kind of anti-clim. That actually sounds right. And then that's why he rescinds the I leave the division forever because he then had to fight Bisping instead of doing it. So yeah, I think, I believe you are correct. Right. But spot on though with as far as like the impact, the delivery, the, I don't want to say there's no better post-fight callout because we've had some great ones.

I don't think there is. It's pretty fantastic. It's juvenile. It's to the point. It's effective. I mean, again, we really shouldn't have had to fight Bisping. There must have been a reason, right? Was Anjan Silva?

Maybe it got hurt. Something. I feel like there has to be reason they didn't just immediately jump back into the Anderson Silva fight. But it's such a good promo. I almost feel like no matter what happened with Bissing, they would have found a way to make Son and Stan to happen anyway. Son and Sten and Silva too happen anyway.

It wasn't like we hadn't seen during that time period. seen fighters lose fights and then end up getting title shots. It happened with what Nick Diaz and GSP, things like that. Like stuff that was essentially set in stone. And yeah, it would have sucked if, you know, Bisping had beaten Sonan, but Sonan probably would just chilled on the sidelines. Anderson would have smoked Bisping, as you said, Jed, and then Sonan, they just give him that title shot anyway, right?

So, yeah, and that's, but it's because of a promo like that, that made it undeniable. It's so juvenile and so direct. And everyone, like, Blah, Muhammad is desperately trying to get a title fight. And if you would just come out on the mic instead of being like, I'll fight the wolf man,

you guys know who I'm talking about. And he just said something as direct and simple as Leon Edwards, you suck, fuck you. Like, that's all you need sometimes. It doesn't have to be that deep or that clever. It could just be childish as long as it is delivered with Panash.

And he nails it. It's the number one chale quote for me. So, A.K., let's go to you. you take another one. I'm going to go a deeper. I think I left some of the bigger ones for you guys. I know there's so many.

One of my favorite bits, this was not in Cage, is his, I'm from the mean streets of Portland promo. It's like a video. I can't remember what he was promoting. I can't remember what this was tied to. Three years of my father?

It's so deadpan. It's so well executed. I don't know if he wrote it himself. He probably did write it himself. The content is so funny. I mean, he also definitely had writers work with him. Sure. Of course, it's an ironic 90-second two-minute promo about his rough upbringing in West Lynn,

West Lynn, Oregon. And it's just fantastic. I think it's so funny. I very rarely, people know I say this all the time. I don't think a lot of athletes are funny. I don't think a lot of combat sports athletes are funny. I don't think they're charismatic. This is legitimate, at least like if you watch this, okay, this guy has some acting chops,

his timing doesn't crack. There's no smirking. There's no smirking like, oh, look at this funny joke I'm telling. He's playing it very straight. And that's what makes it so effective. And it's out there on YouTube. We got a 90-second clip. It's one of the best storytellers.

It's one of the best storytellers of all time. Yeah. It's just incredible. The maid can have you hanging on is every word. There were years of my father didn't even make 100 grand or barely made 100 grand. Sure, we had a maid. She only came twice a week. What do you think happened in the other five days?

You think those dishes washed themselves? You think those clothes got themselves in the hamper? Stray face. It's an unbelievable delivery. You don't know. You haven't seen the things I've seen. the mean streets of Westland, Oregon. Yeah, great self-awareness, which, again, is very lacking in MMA often.

That's certainly not an attribute that Sonan did not have. He's one of the most self-aware. You love him or hate him. He's one of the most self-aware characters in combat sports. So, yeah, I just love that clip. It's very good. That's the thing, A.K., that you just mentioned, and I think it's so impossible for most others, anybody else to replicate,

is the level of self-awareness that it requires to do a lot of what Chale was doing, how tongue-in-cheek it all felt in the moment, but how much it felt like he believed it. Like there was not an ounce of him putting on an act, like the deadpanness, just the saying things with conviction that you know he knew was just ridiculous and that you know it was ridiculous,

but the way in which he is communicating it to you is so honest and effective and just again that he believes every word that he's saying, even though it is objectively false and ridiculous, it's like, you know, no one else has really been able to do it to that degree, to just really, like, be a performance in that way. It's really impressive. It's impressive stuff from Chal P.

Shane, give me one. So I'll give you two, because one's short and one's longer. When you're the best fighter in the world today, they don't call you a great fighter. They call you Chail Sunnan. And I'm pretty sure that was a post-fight promo. It was, in fact. That's an incredible line. That's just a really great.

That is actually the post-fight promo from the entire Bisping post-fight. Yeah, that's the promo where he leads with. Rogan comes in and is like, how you do is like, Joe, this is your night. I want you to tell the people how you feel being inches away from greatness. I want you to tell everybody, are you not mesmerized? Do you not have chills going up and down your spine for the first time? I'm on Fox for you to be here in Chales Octagon on Chales channel holding Chales microphone, interviewing Chale.

It's the most pro wrestling he ever went. Dude, that's the thing is like, anybody can write that. Anybody can have a team of people help them do this. And we've seen others try to execute on that level. It is such a different thing to be able to say that in your bedroom mirror than to say that after going 15 hard minutes with Michael Bisbing and being in front of millions and just having a microphone shove in your face. To be able to execute that delivery.

To execute the delivery, say every single word correctly, not forget anything, and just master it is such a crazy degree of difficulty. And yet this man was consistently hitting it. So it's just, it's a hell of a line. I love that line. So that's my post-fight quote. I want to do an interview quote because for a long time interviewing Chale Sondon was just like one of the biggest treats that you could get in the industry because it was so much

fun. It was so interesting. It was so interesting to think of ways to get him to give you different stuff and how you're going to navigate this interview. It was a real puzzle to try to put together of like, how can I get the best stuff from this 15 minutes? I'm going to have with Chale. And there is one video that I completely forgot about that over the course of this research, I was delighted to refine. It is an interview that he's doing with our good friend, Ariel Helwani. It is before, it is, I don't know what the timeline is on this, but it is before he fought Vanderlae. It is during some aspect of the Vanderlai rivalry, and Van der Le had made some sort of interview or video essentially saying, I'm going to come kill Chale. It was just a very benign

normal trash talk. And Ariel says, you know, hey, Chale, Van der Leigh says he's going to come kill you. What do you say to that? And without missing a beat, this man, I don't know if this was prepared. I don't know if this was off the top of his head. It feels like it was all off the top of his head. It's just incredibly impressive. I'm just going to do this quickly. Listen, Vandale, I will do a home invasion on you. I will cut the power to your house, and the next thing you'll hear is me claiming up your stairs in a pair of night vision goggles I bought from the back of Soldier of Fortune magazine. I'll pick the lock to the master's door.

Take a picture of you in bed with the Ogera brothers working on your jujitsu. I'll take said quote, unquote, photograph, posted at dorks from Brazil.com. Password, not required. Username, not required. That vandalay is how you threaten someone, dummy. Oh my God, it's so funny. It's fucking perfection.

The way he almost cracks himself up during the username not required. He's like, this is gold that I'm spitting. And just to be able to do all that off the top of the dome, because there was also a part I left off at the beginning too. And it's just the mastery of the English language is just a joy. It's a real joy. It's fantastic. stuff. I just have

a million more and so I'm just going to keep firing him down. One of the famous ones, I thought if you tapped out you lost the round. Come to find out, you actually lose the fight. That's how he sold the Anderson Silver loss after to resell it. I mean, that's

just a bit of brilliance to you know, winking, tongue and cheek acknowledging that you lost, but I didn't really lose. I didn't know about it. I really, really, really. liked after, I don't remember which one this was, but I just have the quote. He's calling out Anderson, or sorry, not Anderson, calling out Vanderley-Silva.

It's Van der Lees-Silva, six feet tall, 205 pounds. Boy, I didn't know, until I met you, I didn't know they could stack crap that high. But then Joe tries to take the mic from him because he thinks that that's the end of the promo. And this, like, is pretty clearly off the top of the dome because of how it happens. And Chale stops him and it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa. I'll let you know when I'm done, Joe. I just got done with a world champion. It's actually after the Shogun fight now.

I just got done with the world champion. If you think I won't add a middle-aged comedian just for the goddamn pleasure of it, you better think again. It's unbelievably funny to say that to Joe Rogan and call out Vandolay again. So shouts to that one. A.K., you got another? There's, yeah, we mentioned Banderlay a lot. And I think we have to do, listen, we do.

did half of this on the dam with Vanderlai, and I think you need the other half. Wanna Now, you know, Wan and Now, of course, a classic from Vanderlea and Chal Snowan, I can't let you get close. I can't let you get close. He's so serious in the moment, too. Like, he's, Sonan is very serious this moment. And I don't know if he's, you know, really saying that to protect himself. We're in a subtle way goading Vanderley to do something on camera.

No, that was just the right thing to say. That was really. If you, if you, if you, like, hear from people, the clapping. If you hear from people behind the scenes and talk to people involved in that season, Van der Le was very unhinged in the whole time. And the whole time, that's what Chale was trying to say to him of like, hey, man, like, we need to actually just have a conversation about what we're doing here. Like, is this a real thing?

Are we doing a bit? Like, are we, like, am I in danger here? Like, he was actually, like, just trying to, like, communicate to Vanarley. Like, dude, we're trying to put a show together. Like, you need to be a professional at some level. I love that. I love it so much. Want to now, and I can't let you get close.

Just go together, like peanut butter and jelly. Just fantastic. And, yes, you need the I can't let you get close part. A phrase that I think many MMA fans have repeated multiple times for various. In context and out of context. Just throw it out there sometimes. I can't believe we've gone this far and not mentioned Tito Ortiz press conference. There's just a lot of tough scenes in that as well.

Feel free to bring it up because I still have a number of other quotes. So, Firewell, Sheen. Tito always says I use my mouth to get my opportunities. the only person I know that made money using their mouth is his ex-wife. And he says it incredibly deadpan. No, like just very quietly, very quietly. And if you look at everyone's faces around him, Paul Daly is right next to him.

And Paul Daly looks like he saw someone get shot. He looks like he witnessed a murder. The whole room makes a very audible gas. Yeah, it's, it's out there, man. And then Tito, stumbling, bumble and Tito has no idea. Silence. There couldn't be a more ill-equipped person to deal with that. Just silence.

And then he says, well, just to correct you, I was never in no marriage. And then that hangs in the air for a second. He says, you're a fucking, what a great. I was never married. So this is obviously ridiculous piece of trash talk. He says, you're a fucking punk dude. And all this we get from jail is, that was a nasty line by me. And he just cack holes and like flexes.

That was a nasty line by me is that's good. Tito's defense is the equivalent of when someone rattles off like five or six insults. You like you, like you stupid, ugly, like ignorant, like dumbass like MFer. And then you go like, hey, like I am not like I am not. I actually scored very high on the SAT. I am not dumb. Yeah, it's like, that was the equivalent of that, but actually in real life and not a bit. Like, as far as we know, unless Tito Ortiz has been Andy Kaufmaning it all these years,

like that is his sense. That's an incredible thing. The rest of that presser is just an incredible watch from that point on because Tito cannot recover it. Like, he is just on tilt for the entire time. He's trying to do his thing. He's trying to tell a story about a lion with the big mane who comes across the jackals. he's just too rattled to do it and jail is like falling asleep in the middle of the story

he says at some point tell another jackal's story about Christopher walking and a mane and a lion there's a there is a YouTube video that someone did it's a YouTube edit someone did of that whole press conference of just the chale parts roasting tito and then it goes to the fight and it's chale attempting the submission and then it just flashes the chale getting his handrake from a different fight and it's just

all tremendous. It's like a super cut of like when keeping it real goes right. It's just a great idea for a fan edit. Man, Bellator gave us some terrific press conferences. What with this one and the baby? Yeah. Good heavens.

So there's the Nogeres and the bus story which is just an iconic story even though I don't think it's actually one of his better bits. But this is, if you haven't just Google that one, it's very out there. It's the deadpan. Again, it's the series.

He just sells it well. He's delivering this stuff. And it's the fact that so here's the quote is, I was in Las Vegas Noguerre Brothers touchdown in America. There's a bus. This is a true story. He keeps saying that this is a true story. It's a true story.

Bus was pulled up at a red light and Little Nog tried to feed a carrot. Well, Big Nog's petting it. They thought it was a horse. This really happened. And just the, this. This really hasn't. Gets it over the top.

Yeah, listen, the Nogera Brothers bit, the feeding a carrot to a truck, the boss of what everything is a horse, obviously incredibly xenophobic, however you guys want to classify it, it's not a nice thing to say about a person and their culture. If you're out there and you're offended by it, completely justified. I understand. I laughed at it when it happens. I still, when I hear the problem why I laughed about it a bit, It's the commitment, as we keep saying,

it's such a big part of Chilisona's whole persona. I don't think one thing for me is, I don't think he has ever said it was a joke. I don't think, because he gets asked about it a lot. He brings us prom up every now and then. I don't think he's ever gone back and said, oh, remember when I told that hilarious, like joking promo about the Nogueras?

Like, he has always maintained, like you said, that whole deal, like, that's a true story. That's a true story. And people can hate him in that story all they want. But, damn, there's something about committing to such an absurd and obvious. false tale that has to be

a source of, it's not respected, a source of amusement. That's how I look at anyway. I still think it's a funny little, it's a funny little bit. But you know, that's a,

who might come down to a matter of taste and sensibility. Yeah. I mean, I agree. If you don't care for, I think that's fine. And again,

not his best effort. But the fact that he can get that over in the way that he does is great. And obviously, you know, they didn't ever hold it. I don't know how his relationship with Vandali is, but I know Geras and he and Anderson are like friends now and have been for many years at this point.

That was that was the best bit from recently when they were at that. What were they promoting? Oh, the Anderson Silva's fight with Jake Paul, right? And Chelsea. Chelsone's part. The time, and it wasn't just Chale Stoner's part. It was the timing of Anderson with him saying like, oh, can I finally actually come to Brazil and have that barbecue with you? And then Anderson without missing feet is like, oh, no, you can't come.

They'll kill you out there. I can't do it. So good. You would think it was planned. It was so well done. But there's that spontaneous magic from both of them that made that moment so hilarious. I thought that was. Even Chale looked a little caught off guard, like at the timing of how much Anderson nailed that.

So you can certainly add that to the list involves JL, I think. Yeah. There's just so many of them. So I will leave it with, I won't go as I have still an enormous list. I do have two more that I just want to get out because I like them a lot for very different reasons. The first one is, I always like fighters that understand what they're doing.

And Shaheen, you said kind of at the top of this Chale Sun and his prize fighter. And he had the best quote about this. Other people have struck at this in similar ways, but he had one that came out. It was like, my ideal fight would be against this.

I'm, I think I'm here. Okay. He had won. that kind of strikes at the same thing other people have done, but I think he just says it cleaner than anyone else ever really has. My ideal fight would be against the smallest guy with the most atrocious record in the biggest venue for the most insane paycheck.

I love easy fights. It's just like, yeah, yeah, that's correct. This man gets in and understands the game in a way that's really important. And the other one, just because this is a pet peeve of mine, he was talking about, you know, the propensity of me. many fighters to thank God after performances. And it's like, I'm a God-fearing man. Go to church every Sunday and a half since I was a boy.

I'm so glad you mentioned this. I had. This is my last one I had written down. It's the best one. I'm a God-fearing-man, go to church every Sunday and a half since I was a boy. But if I ever found out that God cared one way or another about a borderline illegal fist fight on Saturday night, I would be so greatly disappointed that it would make me rethink my entire belief system.

I think it is that. such a good assessment of things. It's like, yeah, that's right, Jail. You nailed it, buddy. So that was one I definitely wanted to shout out. Any others for you all before we move on? Boating for flight 246 to Toronto is delayed 50 minutes. What?

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Winners find fabulous for less. Perfect. Our next category. Fado's sweater of absolute victory. This is for a piece of memorabilia from the fighter's career. I don't have anything. Straight up, just don't have anything for this one. So I don't know if you got, there was nothing that I jumped out

as something I cared about, honestly. And any kind of meaningful way, no, no clever thing that stuck out to me. So I got nothing. I thought you wanted the Justin Bailey flying knee tape. I thought that's what you were going to say. I mean, I didn't think of that, but yes, I absolutely, I absolutely do. If it's out there, whoever you are out there, who's the one person with a, with a crusty old cell phone who was recording that, please send it to us. I just want that, I'd like to see the WC title that Paula Felo owed him.

I assume he still has it. I don't know if he puts it on display on his show or anything because supposedly it was mailed to him. I don't know if I recall ever seen him pose with it or crow about having it. Probably it's not something he's super proud to have. He should be. I mean, he should be. Oh, I feel like he would absolutely lean into that. If he has it, I'd love to see it.

I'd love to have a piece of it. So let's see it. Let's see it, yeah. So I struggle a little bit with this until I didn't because all of a sudden I realize like there's a real answer here. There's like an actual correct answer. So my fake answer is I would like to just have a positive drug test any one of them. There's a lot of options. Nice.

I think that would just be fun of like, oh, this is fails failed drug test. But the real answer is the flip flop. Give me the flip flop that he's wearing when he can't let Anderson, family suburb will get close. Yeah. I like that. That's a good answer. That's really good.

That's a good answer. See, this is why we crowd source these things because I could not figure a thing out. I was like, I don't care about having fight shorts or gloves or whatever. So good quality answers, both. We're zipping through things right into the Habib Tony Award for a fight that never ended up happening that you wanted to see. I cheated, boys. Straight up, cheated. Don't feel bad about it.

Because the fight that didn't end up happening that I wanted to see is Van der Leis Silva. And you might be saying that fight happened. That fight happened eight years after it was supposed to happen when neither man was even a marginal resemblance of their peaks. Even if the fight had happened when it was first proposed, still Vandale, it wouldn't have been. in his prime, but would have been closer to it than when it actually ended up happening. We deserve to get those two dudes settling up in the octagon, and the fact that we never did is a travesty to me. So I have no other answers.

This is the only one I had. Did you guys have anything that you feel strongly about? Not particularly. This is a weird one because we said it at the top, but with Chaley, it was never about the fight. It was about the lead up. and it was about the fun that you could have around the fight rather than the fight itself. And we kind of saw him against all the bombastic guys. Like we saw him against pretty much everyone who would make that sort of lead up as fun as we could,

except for the Vanley-Lasobiles above that we eventually saw it. But I didn't really have one. So for me, maybe I wouldn't mind seeing Tidor Ortiz 2, C.R.T.R.T.R.T.R.T.E.R.T.E.R.T.E. F.T.T.E.E.E.T.E.I. Like, I just want to keep running. have him keep running it out. I just kind of want to keep having more Tito or T's press conferences. It actually, it kind of feels like the more that Tito wins, the better the press conferences would get because Tito wouldn't be able to fathom how this man is still talking shit after losing

three times in a row. You know, look, he lost three times in a row to, um, why is his name blanking on me right now? There you go. Jeremy Horn, why couldn't he lose to Tito thrice in a row? I think we could, we could make that happen. Okay, what about you? At some point, he was supposed to fight Vitor, I believe.

This was instead of, speaking of Vandrelay, I think Vitor was replacing Vandrelay for some reason. One of the Vandrle, Chil Sownan bookings. And then Sonan had to pull out because he failed a drug test, one of the many drug tests that could end up in Shaheen's collection if they were able to get one. This is silly to me. I mean, they should have just let them dope the shit out of themselves and fight each other. This was the moment to let that happen. Vitor versus Chil Sondon, both guys just needle. needles sticking out of their butts.

Well, Vandale versus Sunnan. Sure. I would have been more than pleased to watch gassed up Vandalee in the UFC take on Chale. Yeah, but I surprised Chal never fought that VitorF fight never happened. I remember, I think it was only briefly considered before, like this said, Sonan sort of had to be removed for his own reasons. But yeah, we should have got that one. I think the Vindler fight did get booked. That sounds like that's correct.

Yeah, but he didn't get it. Just, he was cheating. You can't let him get in there when he said cheating. I can't let him cheat. So it was booked. It was Chale versus Vandalee. Did a whole season about it. Then Vandale has his whole thing with the drug testing has to get taken out.

And so he's replaced by Vitor. So it's Chale versus Vitor. And then Chale fails in the drug test. And so he's out of the bout too. So both guys who are supposed to be in this fight ended up not being in it because a drug test. A lot of dope up. Who does Vitor end up fighting in his stead? I think that booking is just like the fight just falls apart.

Okay, so we don't have a proxy war that we can amalgamate to create a winner. Okay, good to know. Our next category, the T.J. Grant Alternative Universe Award for Sliding Doors Moment. There are two. There are only two that I accept. You could pick a bunch of you wanted, but. There's really one. No, there's one. There's two. There's two. One is the best timeline in MMA history, and I wish it would have happened. I think either of these are the best timeline in M.A. history, because we're talking about, one of them is the same.

The two are Anderson Silva one fight and then John Jones fight. That's the one. That's the one. The Anderson Silva one fight is because I thought about this a lot and like I think we actually know sort of how the timeline goes if Chale doesn't do chale things and get tapped out, right? If he just like doesn't slip on a banana peel. It's John Strickland versus Israel disinia. It's the same sort of setup of like this guy can't win.

He's talking a whole bunch of shit. it, oh my God, look at him. He's winning, doing exactly what he said he was going to do. He's just walking forward and punching this dude in the face. He's just tackling him and beating the hell out of him. Except for then, after we get all of the lunacy of that and that happening. But then afterwards, we do get the, he's stripped because of the failed drug test. Everything gets insane.

Anderson's goat status gets like a huge hit taken to it, even though this becomes no contest. It's such a fascinating thing. Like, we have an immediate rematch when Chale's done. We don't do the Brian Stan stuff. It all gets real weird and real fun. But the one that is more interested, the one, you know, we've talked about that fight plenty. The other one is the John Jones fight. And if Chale can make it to the end of the first round, if you don't know,

John Jones beats the soul out of Chale Sunnan. But in so doing, dislocates his big toe badly. It almost just falls off. Like it looks like it's falling off. It is. gnarly. And the fight finishes in the first round, but if he doesn't, if Chale is just able to hang on.

20 more seven, 27 more seconds. The referee will, is not going to let John Jones come out and answer the bell for the second. His toe is like off of his foot. They just won't let him do it. And by definition, Chale Sunnan would win the UFC light heavyweight title via TKO injury. and I got to tell you

it is the timeline we deserved because I envision a world where Chale has become the UFC champion he goes to the post fight he celebrates as the UFC light heavyweight champion he and Vitor can form their own club of weird injury for UFC light heavyweight champions

and I think he never gives John Jones a rematch I think he just just makes a huge joke out of not fighting John Jones again as long as he possibly can and it's the best. See, I want so badly for this to be our timeline. Because I think you hit a lot of the beats. I think Chale immediately celebrates in a way like he actually beat John Jones.

And then he goes to the press conference. I broke his toe. He goes to the press conference. He's not built in the same stuff I am. One man could continue fighting the other couldn't and he just really milks it. And then he goes on a press tour for weeks and just does this. I think eventually pretty quickly they would have to fight again because at a certain point, Chale's a company man,

and if the UFC is saying, like, dude, you got to fight John Jones, what are we doing? He would fight. I think he could sell it. And then he would lose badly, because of course he would lose badly. But that doesn't matter. Because at that point,

Chale is forever the dude that beat John Jones. He's the guy who, like, toppled the whole John Jones reign. And to this day, to this very day, on Chale's ESPN show, he would name drop that win twice an episode. Of like, hey, by the way, D.C., I beat John Jones, you didn't. As the man who beat John Jones, as the only man in the world who has a real win over John Jones,

like he would live with this forever. And it would be the funniest bit for the rest of our lives. Because it would piss John off so much. John would just be livid forever hearing this man do this for the rest of time. And we so badly deserve this to be our timeline. Look, you're probably right. They probably make him fight. But what if he goes to Dana?

He's like, okay, Dana, sure. We could do this. Or me and Anderson Silva for the light heavyweight title, the three match. Biggest fight in the history of the business. Champion versus champion. I'm the man who just doesn't see John Jones and this lead all the way into it. All of the best outcomes would have been him winning that fight in that way. And the MMA gods are cruel bastards that they didn't give it to us.

It's hard to describe to you who may not have seen it how gnarly John Jones's toe was when they finally got to look at it. Like when we when we're talking about an injury like this is this was not a hideable injury. This was visibly hang. There's blood. There's blood. There's bones. You can see it hang up. I don't know how.

I mean, obviously it's adrenaline. I don't know how John Jones didn't immediately just fall onto his back screaming. He kind of almost like passed out. Once like once the fight ended and there was like a. I can see my foot is not my foot anymore. Shock. I'm missing the biggest toe functionally. Yeah.

27 seconds. 27 seconds. That was it. 27 seconds away from him. From just beauty. The light heavyweight champion of the world. The first man to beat John Jones. Not a, not a D.K.

Like this is a real win. We always, when we're writing about John Jones, we always have to do that. He says, has never taken a legitimate loss of however you want to phrase it. This would not fall under that category. This would we would have to say, yeah, he is definitely a legitimate loss. It's he is, he's in turn. I stand on the corner that Matt Hamill was a legitimate loss too. We don't need to litigate that here.

I mean, you know, it's on the record books, right? But yeah, I think we can all agree. Boy, that 27 seconds away from somehow an even more unlikely victory than the Andrews Silva two minutes to go. So that fight was in 2013. We would still be in 2024 hearing about that fight. once every three days. It would be, it would just live forever in all of us because of Chale. He would never, ever let that go.

It would just be the most wonderful running bit in the history of the sport. I can't believe we didn't get it. It would also honestly just be like the most fitting way for Chale to win a belt. Absolutely. Ridiculous and hilarious. So it would be ideal. Our next category, the left leg cemetery ward. this is for what's the fighter's best individual attribute, skill, etc.

This was a really, really easy one for me. Because you talk about his work on the mic, talk about the wrestling. Other people, I think, are comparable in those categories. I genuinely believe that Chale Sondin is the best in the world in the history of MMA at one particular thing. And it's losing with class. because whatever Chale ever said in a pre-fight buildup, whenever the bill came due,

whenever the Piper had to be paid, this man never avoided a post-fight presser. He never walked in and said, you know, I should have won. He walked in and said, I got beat. The better man won this evening. My job was to go out there and win a fist fight, and I did not. And other people are good at this. Connor has historically been really good at it as well.

but Connor will also then pivot a day or two after and be like, actually, I only lost to Habib because I hurt my foot or whatever. Whereas Chale, outside of the tongue and cheek, Anderson Silva, I thought you just lost the round by tapping, has never walked back a loss and never been like, nope, I, you know, this, I was injured. He's one of the only fighters who has never been injured heading into a fight because he has never said it. A lot of files were like, I don't like saying this because then people

are going to take away, but I came to this injured. You have never heard Chale a month after. Be like, actually, I came into this fight with six concussions and a broken disc. Like, he just doesn't do it because the man wins or loses with class in a way that no one else in the sport does.

I think it's by far as best quality. It's the one I'm taking. It's fair. It's fair. I'll go something in cage. I'll go something fighting related, because you're not wrong. certainly not wrong. I just wrote down stick-to-itiveness as far as his fighting ability because

I think maybe we had a little bit this with Khabib, but for the most part fighters that we do for dam show some sort of, there's some evolution from when you look at the earliest fights to their later fights. Chale's first fight, whether you're talking about the Jason Miller fight or this sort of bizarre 1997,

I think it happened in Vancouver. Is a child? No strikes allow, Vancouver Washington, excuse me. No strikes allowed fight. This is on YouTube. You guys, why everyone watch this on YouTube. It's kind of like a weird, modified roles match. I don't know, I don't think Chale even refers to his first fight. I believe he calls Jason Miller his first professional fight, which happens like five years later.

Anyway, you go back to any of these fights, a lot of them on YouTube. He's the same guy. He's the same guy in every fight. It doesn't change from fight number one, fight number two, to fight number 49. He is the same. There's no evolution in this game. Maybe he added the spinning back fists later on at a really in opportune time. Other than that, he's the same guy. And it worked out for him a lot. Okay, not the most sterling unbeaten record. 31, 17, and 1, okay?

31 wins, a lot of wins in pro-fighting guys. And again, there's some good names in there. Some very good names in there. And Chales, his strategy, it often led to him getting hit a lot. Like, it's not like he was always timing these so well. He wasn't the kind of grappler where he timed things so well to avoid getting hit. He pretty much just said, yeah, just hit me. Yeah, you're going to point him.

you're going to knee me in the ribs you're going to punch me in the face you're going to elbow me but i'm getting inside i'm getting your hips i'm going for a take down that's not easy man to do for almost 50 pro fights at some point you just feels like you can't do that and maybe if you want to look at his last few fights i don't know the last couple of fights it had kind of worn it worn him down he couldn't do anymore but for the majority of his career that was his game plan and it's all he did and if you put that in like a more skilled fighter than chale holy crap you've definitely got like a clear-cut world champion he's just never quite uh never quite got there so the stick-tootiveness is what I went with.

Cheen, anything? Yeah, I mean, it feels like the obvious answer is charisma, right? Like, to me, Chale is the most charismatic athlete in MMA history, more or less. Like, just in terms of pure charisma, like, Conner's witty, whatever. But, like, if you just, if you have somebody walking into a room, Chale can command that room in a way that no one else I've really ever met has been able to. And it's just, it's the way he's able to think on his feet and just how. quick he is with everything. The way he's just able to communicate so effectively for so long

and about so many different things is just incredibly, incredibly unique. And to me, I'm taking one, that would be it. But also, I do think, and this is similar to what you were saying, Jed, of not quite reacting to a loss, but I don't know that there's ever been a greater person at pivoting, planting seeds and pivoting. Because there were a lot of moments in Shail's career where it felt like, oh, that's the big one. He lost it. What could he possibly do next? But he was always planting two or three or four seeds ahead of just like, hey, I got a thing over here with Vandale. I got a thing over here with whoever. Like, he always just sort of had something in the back pocket and he always pivoted basically perfectly from wherever he went or from wherever he was

at that moment. And that's a great, great skill because that'll keep you alive. That'll keep you relevant. That'll keep you earning big paychecks and really keep your name and headlines in a way that if you're not doing that and you lose these big fights, it's not the same. So to meet charisma and just the ability to pivot and play in C's, it's really unique. That's how you go from getting kind of embarrassed in your second fight with Anderson Silva to fighting for the light heavyweight belt shortly thereafter. It's laying the groundwork and executing. B.J. Penn, Cardio Award for Fatal Flaw, just a couple more here. If you're nitpicking one thing about Chale, I think there's a lot of things, but I put some

of them in other categories that maybe you guys might have focused here. The one I just went with is I think that he subconsciously doesn't believe in himself, and that's what explains the fact that he has lost every big fight he's ever been in functionally because, like, it's not just MMA where he just lost every title shot he ever had. he was runner up in the pack 12 in wrestling and runner up at the world university games he gets to the gold medal championship matches and can't get over the hump and i feel like especially with the ways it's happened it honestly seems like it might just be a subconscious thing we're like now's the time where i'll get triangled in a fight where i haven't been close to getting hurt for 23 minutes or whatever it was so uh my fatal flaw do you guys have anything here uh I think related to what you're saying. I also, again, just speaking more practically, would have like to seen him have some more guard passing,

you know, gets just to be up that jiu-jitsu a little bit because he was very happy to just sit in his opponent's guard, as he did many, many times. He did pass to full a few times. I had forgotten Brian Stan. I think he did briefly. He did with Bisping. Actually, he had full amount on Bissing, I think.

So he did get a regressive with that. Because he gets an arm triangle trip. Yeah. Early on, he just kind of didn't care. He just sit in people's guards all day and just punch. away and you passing guard is hard it's much easier to just punch

people once you get them taken down sure but it also led to some of his most notable losses I was looking at his list of people who had triangle to him all notable forest Griffin Babaloo Damian Maya and Anderson Silva so I don't know what those fights have gone differently if he could

if he could you know his jihitsu was a little offensive jihitsu was a little bit sharper maybe but I'd like to have found out because hey wrestling took him a long way but maybe a little jits Merylitz attack would have taken them just a little bit further. Treyin? No, I mean, nothing that we haven't already mentioned.

I had written down the Bisbing fight that he actually, he lost that one. He'll tell you that he lost that one, but it didn't end up mattering. But also, I guess. Banners hang forever. I don't know. This isn't one that I would care about, but I think there are some people out there that would care about it. He's just being such an unabashed PED user, abuser, however you want to phrase that.

Man loves his steroids. I respect him for it, especially how open he is about it. But I would think that to some degree that is a flaw when you are a combat sports athlete. Nah, no, that's a good stuff. That's deeply not a flaw. I don't accept that answer. Brad Ims Fun with Stats Award. This has got any cool stats for him.

I didn't put too much time into this because it was a little hard. But I will say that I added up all of his fight time. He has one hour. and 31 minutes, 28 seconds of control time. That's good for tops in the UFC middleweight history. He's got a number of kind of those related records. But I then was like, how long is 91 minutes? And it turns out it's the exact runtime as Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

So you can either watch Monty Python and the Holy Grail, or you can watch every second that Chale Sunnan was in control of a fist fight in the UFC. Your choice. That's a good one. That's a good one. I've never seen you reach that deep before for one of these stats. It was hard. There's not a lot going on here.

I just wanted to know, why did he keep getting these rematches in the UFC? This was so strange. Was it just the talent pool was not as expansive as it was at the time? We didn't have contenders series back then to throw randos at him because Trevor Prangley, he fought in the regionals and then fought in the UFC. He had to get that win back. Okay, come on. Babelieu fought in the regionals and fought again in the UFC.

He wanted to get that win back. Okay. Jeremy Horn, twice on the regional scene, lost both times, and fights again the UFC and loses again. He really wanted to get that win back. I got to say, you'll never see that again. If you just travel back to 2006, I would love to talk to Chale on May 28, 2006, after he loses the Jeremy Horn the third time. Because that is the end of his first UFC run. He goes, he's one in one going into the horn fight for the third time, loses the Jeremy Horn in six minutes. And then he's one and two, and he gets cut.

But, and again, that's the third time he's lost to this man. I would just love to have Chalk to Chale on that day. I'm just like, man, they really set you up on this one, didn't they do? They did not really set you up well. Like they let him beat Trevor Prangley. It's the only rematch you ever won. I can comfortably say you will never see a fighter ever fight the three opponents they fought in the regional scene in the UFC ever again.

I get those rematches. That's just not going to happen. In a row? Probably not. But I wouldn't comfortably say that. I don't think it's possible. I think it's very possible that you could fight somebody twice on the regional scene and you both are a contender serious people.

And they'll just say, chuck it. Who cares? We'll do it again. It's absolutely in play. But I would tend to agree with you. We got like three categories left. We rename this award because if you guys don't know, there's a new podcast slash YouTube show on the MAA. Are we skipping the stats award?

that was my stat that was my stat yeah fighting I had one okay okay yeah go I'm gonna edit this back so fire I just have one because like you gentlemen I struggled with this one but ultimately I think this is maybe illustrative of the whole point of this podcast that we've been doing for two hours at this point if you take out sort of the big hitters in UFC history in terms of pay-per-view draws right so in my mind that's Connor McGregor That's Rhonda Rousey. That's Brock Lesder. And then I would also throw in just like these centennials, the 100, 200, 300, just things that sell themselves.

If you take those out, so those are just the obvious, these are giant events. Where do you think Anderson Silva versus Chal Sondon 2, which is a fight that was pure Chale? It is because of Chale's performance of the first fight. It is because of Chales buildup. It is because of all of that. Are you losing me? It seemed like you're losing me. No, you're good.

I thought I was. You're good. It's because the Chales performance in the first fight, it's because the Chales buildup. It's purely on the back of Chale. Where do you think that ranks among the all-time biggest events in M.A. history, taking out the outliers? It's probably pretty high. I'm trying to. It's like I've done kind of similar stuff with others.

Like, I don't know, top five, certainly. Almost. Probably top, I probably top three. Almost. See, I thought that too, but there's been a lot of big events. events recently. So that's kind of pushed it down the list. Yeah, it's going to throw it. But still, even today, Anderson Silva Chilana 2 is the seventh biggest fight of all time in MMA history outside of those tremendous outliers of the Rouseys and McGregors and such,

which that to me is frankly incredible because seventh biggest might not seem like a lot, especially if you're throwing all those caveats in. But just imagine someone telling you that in 2006, just like we said, when he's washing out of the UFC as this random wrestling dude who's just a face among the crowd who's one and two and losing to Jeremy Horn three times, like, imagine telling him that guy, dude, on the back of your own powers, you are going to build and have one of the biggest fights of all time. To me, that's incredible. That is just beyond remarkable.

And it's such a credit to who Chale is and who he was able to build himself into. And Sonan doesn't pass that mainstream, test that like the other name like Rhonda Rousey is a crossover mainstream star Brock Lesz is a crossover mainstream star. Connor McGregor obviously the biggest crossover mainstream star of our life so far. Sonan is on the edge. Like there might be casual sports fans who know him, but there's not people who like just generally follow entertainment and pop culture.

Your average person does not know who Chil Sonan is. They know McGregor, they know Rousey, they know Lesnar. They don't know Chil Sonan. So that's pretty crazy that this is that nine, whatever the number is 990,000 and 50,000 that it's sold is for the most. part, MMA fans and also probably some, you know, sports fans in general.

But that's, that's damn impressive. Very impressive. Almost as impressive as our next category, AK, because we've got a new name for this category. If you don't know, there's a new show on MMAfighting.com.

Me and AK are part of it. Shaheen is not, but he gets to jump in because we've renamed what was previously the Sean Ferris Award for Act who should play in the movie, as the this is cinema with with two ems in cinema award for act you should play them in a movie i have two answers i even i've put a third but i don't really care about it one is an answer that's like was on the forums and and read it and stuff for a while lockman monroe who is sort of that

guy for two thousand air comedies did a bunch with the waynes brothers and scary movie dead man on campus if you google him you know him even if you don't know the name and does bear a striking resemblance to CHOP. But I decided to have a little more fun here, fellas, because... Oh, my God. This dude looks just like Chale. Yes. What was that name?

Lockland... Lockland Monroe. You, like, you Google him. He is a that guy. Like, oh, he's been in kind of a bunch of stuff. And actually has, like, very, very striking resemblance to jail. Wow. So that, because that was definitely, like, a forum thing for a minute there.

But I decided to have some fun because there's a movie that's set to be filmed about a famous MMA fighter with a famous star playing that MMA fighter. And it's Mark Kerr is going to be played by Dwayne the Rock Johnson. And if Dwayne Johnson gets to be Mark Kerr, you know, let's get John Cena a biopic. Let's get John Cena his own vehicle to serve as an MMA bio-euvre. pick and let's let John Sina be Chale P. Sunnan, the American gangster from Wesleyan

Oregon. I think it would be so much fun. By the way, Lockeland Monroe would also be an excellent Brendan Fitzgerald, for the record. And yet, I don't know if I would say Brendan Fitzgerald looks like Chil Sonan. Anyway, he's in between there. Yeah, but it works. I have to give

that a clap. That gets applause. That was, that was... That's good. I was inspired. I think of it. I was like, This is very silly, obviously, but silly kind of works. And John Cena's particular brand of comedy kind of works for jail. Like, I think it would just land. I think his delivery on all the jail quotes would be perfection. It would be perfect.

Yeah. It would be so good. So I was really, really proud of that one. That's really good. I went another way. I'm going more trendy. I'm going a little bit younger. I guess that's the thing I do.

I do try to get people who can play them in their sort of early 20s to later in their career. So not a guy, he does not particularly look like Chale. It would be more of a, it's more for acting. And I guess general. As we go from the Josealdo film, you actually don't have to look like the person. I would not have cast that guy. I'll tell you that one.

Shout us to Jose Loretto. Glenn Powell is white hot right now. I think Glenn Powell is the third name. He could play, yeah, he is such a, he is shown, he is a specialist at playing. I use the term, I use this with the greatest compliment, a charismatic I would love to see his take on some of these chale promos. I don't know if he could deliver them with the same of plummet's chale, but I think he could put his own suit on it.

Yeah. That's why I had him as the third. If you guys are going to hold my feet to the fire for like a guy who's not older than chale. Yeah. Glenn Powell, I mean, so hot right now. Just so hot right now on the streets. He can get that movie greenlit immediately. Easily.

So, Glenn, if you're out there, I know. you're listening, obviously a big fan of the pod network and this show in particular to make it this far in. Talk to us. We can make things happen with you and Chale. If John Cena passes. Passes on the role, not passes away. Yes.

Passes on the role, obviously. Way to take it to a dark place. We got to be careful. Passes on the role. Speaking of pass on the role, sometimes fighters might decide, what if I don't want to be a fighter. For instance, for your name's Cole Conrad, you decide instead of being the belt or heavyweight champion, I'm going to go sell milk, which is what he did. And that's why we named this category after him, the Cole Conrad Career Change Award. It is our penultimate actual category,

and it's for what would Chale Sunnan be doing if he were not a professional fighter? He'd be in jail, guys. That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm going with. I took this down a dark path? Wow. Well, it's kidding. I mean, I'm just saying, there's a lot of jaily things that happened in Chale's life that ultimately he's not, but in 2011 he pled guilty to a money laundering in connection with mortgage fraud, which also coincidentally is the thing that upended his political bid in 2010. And then he had like a big, sorted lawsuit with the pizza shop owner. that he the guy he co-owned uh what i can't remember the name of the pizza how dare you street's pizza yeah um you know he did i think that they recently settled out the 2021 misdemeanor battery

for assault which is like there but then also we're talking about a gentleman who repeatedly and flagrantly took performance enhancing drugs when they were explicitly denied and just kept cheating violently in that fashion and a man who, lest we forget, got fired from the apprentice for cheating. This is a man who simply does, do you not know that he got fired from the apprentice for cheating? I can't say that I'm up on my apprentice lore. So, like, he was on the celebrity apprentice, the one with Arnold Schwarzenegger is the host,

and he gets, he is, you know, fired. He's the guy who gets sent out because during, like, whatever their challenge was this week, I didn't go back and watch the thing. in order to game the system and gain more time, he cut the teams like computer cord that was tracking it. So he just cheated because they weren't doing the thing successfully. And he's like, sure, I'll cheat. I cheated in M.A.

Why not? I cheated when I money laundered and did mortgage fraud. This is just a man who does not feel compelled to abide himself by the laws of society. And so if he wasn't a world famous professional mixed martial artist, I think he'd be in jail. That's what I'm saying. I also needed a moment in this pod somewhere to talk about the actual bad stuff he's done.

And this seemed like a good place for it. First, that's hilarious. I had never heard that. That's the most chill. That's the most. They changed the apprentice and that's how he lost. That's the funniest thing that I've heard all day. I'm so glad you brought that into my life.

So everything you're saying is correct. But I think you ended up with the wrong. finish line. You ended up with the wrong outcome. Because yeah, he's morally gray. He's not, he doesn't need to abide by the laws of society. He's charismatic enough to get him out of pickles, of which he finds himself in, plenty, it seems. To me, everything that you just described is why he would be a politician. He would be a U.S. senator or a U.S. House of Representatives member.

and eventually he would probably work himself up into either a vice president or presidential candidate because he is so charismatic and he's able to convince you of things you don't actually believe. And also, you know, the law doesn't really apply. You're not wrong. Here's the thing. You're not wrong. And I think that as you talk through it, in my head, I was like, okay, sure, but he tried it.

And it just literally tanked his 2010 political game. Different world, baby. Exactly. I was like, that was 2010. I don't know why he's not running for office now. No one would care. If anything, it would get him more votes because he's willing to go there. He's willing to do what others are not. Yeah. The world in 2010 was a very different place than the world we live in now. And so I don't, I honestly, as you're absolutely right. I don't know. Yeah, it's 100% correct. I don't know why he's not running for office now, other than that he has an ESPN show. And probably that's probably less work and not equally as lucrative, but still makes him enough.

People that charismatic do not get punished, my friend. People that charismatic do not go to jail. Yeah, I'm with Jahan on this one. I don't think he goes to jail. Everything about him screams successful politician or successful, you know, a member of corporate America, right? Just falling upwards with all his, whatever, you know, misbehavior. But I landed on those and also like motivational speaker like really famous ones You know one of those one of those I didn't want to say like Andrew Tate but kind of that level

The kind of voice that like the drifter motivation Yeah that fighters that fighters swear by and are kind of going like listen man like chale's a real man like chel said this chill said that like you guys got to listen to what he says It's really going to make sense for you and change your life and I think he would have been like fighter at jason in that sense So not quite in the world of m m m ms but followed by many many many many ms fighters and idolized I don't hate either of these, but that brings us to our final category before we put a bow on things. The, look at me now!

Leon Edwards Award for the best moment of Chale P's career. And again, I'll lead us off because I thought this was actually a little tougher to kind of spot, you know, the apex. And I settled on Shogun because it is the best one of his career. That's just kind of where I level that. I'm getting thumbs down, double thumbs down. from Sheen al-Shadi.

So Sheen, I cede the microphone to you. What is the look at me now for jail? No, this is the easiest answer on the whole thing. It is August 8th, 2010, the day after the first civil fight, until July 6th, 2012, the day before the second civil fight. From the moment he left the cage against Anderson Silver the first time, until the moment he stepped into the cage the second time, this man was the biggest star in the world. He could do no wrong in MMA. He literally, they always talk about on the rewatchables, Apex Mountain was Apex Mountain really mean. And Bill Simmons always defaults to that.

It's when you had the most juice, when you could get something done, the quickest. Chale Sondon had supreme juice for that basically two-year span. He could have done anything he wanted and it would have been successful. Every interview that he ever did ended up with six figure views. Just everybody wanted to see and hear from Chale Sondon. and at all times, and there was no such thing as too much because he was so clever and creative and able to keep people on their toes. That man owned that two-year span, and it was never the same after that. Like, he was still a big star, and he remains a still big name and a big star in a

good interview. But, like, whatever that two-year moment was is a type of magic that few have ever accomplished in this sport, and it's something that we are never getting bad. Okay, what do you got? Essentially the same as Gene. I wrote down, beating Stan, then the promo, then be beating bisming. But I think Jaheen's right. It's literally from the day he's after the first Silva fight. His star power was just insane. But yeah, but it's another reason why I almost had that fight on my Mount Rushmore as Shaheen did is, is beating Stan. Like you really realize, okay, this guy's the real deal. Like he is on another tier of middleweights. He is in that top

three, top four, top five tier comfortably. Comfortably. Cuts an incredible promo, as you said, Jed, maybe the one that comes first and foremost to people's minds, not just with Sonin, but when you're talking about post-fight callouts, I mean, that's right up there. And then he, quote-unquote, beats Bisping. And again, during this stretch, you really could have believed that he was going to win that Anderson-Silva rematch.

I didn't believe it. We saw him win for 23 minutes. It's not even like, oh, it's how is he going to do it? It's like, we just saw 23 minutes of him beating Anderson Silva. We just saw it. If he gets this rematch, this guy's about to become the world champion. And now we look back on it.

We almost not laugh, but I think we look back on what happened after and before, and it's weird that just that little section is where he was, again, the biggest star in M.A. But this was a real thing. Like this, he could have, he looked like the,

arguably the number one middle weight in the world. And now, again, with benefit of hindsight, people would never say that. People might not even rank him as a top five middleweight, top, I don't even know where they put him all time on the rest of the middleweight.

We meant to mention that in our right at the end. But it's not even a consideration that he's one of the best, but he almost beat the best. ever. Yeah, you guys are right. It's actually the exact moment is Day Anderson Silva, you absolutely sucked. That is the very tip-top of the mountain right there. That's the peak.

So I see the point, which brings us to the end, ladies and gentlemen. We have talked about Chal P for two hours, tried to not get to three, and I think we've at least accomplished that, even if maybe we didn't get as short as, you know, our ambitions had hoped for. But it's your last time. We're never doing another day. Chale. It's not going to be a guy like Robbie Lollah. We might re-dam

because it's fun. So, if you got any final thoughts about Chale P get him out now. Shaheen. Any last words on this man? Not particularly. I mean, I think we've said a lot over the course of this four-hour podcast. We've said a lot. But it is,

I go back to the beginning that to me, Chale, more so than I think almost anyone else that I can really think of. I'm sure maybe there's another name or two, but they're escaping me right now. but truly, Chale is someone who encapsulates the ethos, the philosophy that it's not just the incage stuff that matters in this sport. Like, it's not just the fight results that matter in the sport, because the importance that

he left on the sport, the significance that he left, the teachings that he more or less imparted upon the athletes and sort of the future generations in what arose from that is something that profoundly and fundamentally changed the sport for, ever. And frankly, like, not for nothing, like gave a lot of us a lot of really great memories because the Chale era was awesome. The Chale Anderson era was incredibly fun time to be involved in this sport. And just as someone who, you know, reaches out to athletes, who speaks to athletes, who that's my job is to text people and say, hey, can I talk to you about this? Chale Sonnen is the easiest person, easiest, incredibly famous person to get to do something

that I've ever met in my entire life. I have texted. detail countless times over my life of like, hey man, can you talk to me about this? And I will get a text back within four seconds because that man is just punctual. He is sweet. He is generous with his time. I know dudes who have been randos who are just like college kids who text chale out of nowhere and say, hey, can I talk to you? And he'll text back immediately and say yes. That dude was so generous with his time for so long in an era where he was one of the most, if not the most famous man in the entire sport. That is not something that happens. That is incredibly uncommon.

So for him to be able to keep that level of self-awareness, humbleness, just understanding, gratefulness for where he's gotten and just being able to reach his hand down to the people much lower and be able to lift them up, it's incredible, man. It's absolutely incredible. Like, hell, the first time I ever reached out to Chale in my life was when I was writing the Silva 16. And it was like, hey, I'm writing a thing about Anderson Silva's greatness.

and I would love to talk to you about losing to Anderson Silva, and he said, call me right now. And I ended up talking him for 50 minutes. And this is a dude that I was nobody in the industry at that point. He did not know who I was. He did not need to do that. And he got incredibly profound with me. It was telling me about some deep, dark shit. And it was like a 50 minute conversation, literally just about losing to Anderson.

And I'm sure I was incredibly annoying at that point of just like really trying to keep pushing, push up like, oh, man, how was Andrew's his speed? How was his power? like just trying to get as much as I could out of it. And he held him in it all with a plum because that's who that guy is. And so I don't know. He's just a credit to the sport. I know he's done a lot of bad stuff too.

But like ultimately, man, this isn't, you know, table tennis. Like these dudes are professional fighters and Chal San is one of a kind. Oh. Wow. We got the full Dana White from. It's real, though. It's real, though. It's real, though.

You know? Like, that dude, ultimately that dude is a good dude in my eyes. Yeah. I think I would agree. What do you got for your closer? No one has ever talked their way to the top like this in MMA. We've had people going to immediately go like, what? Conner McGregor, people got to remember.

The key part of Conner Gregory is the talking and then delivering. Connor McGregor does not become the mega star that we know if he doesn't win the interim title. He doesn't beat Chad Mendes. If he doesn't beat Josie Aldo, he doesn't beat Eddie Alvarez. He's going to become famous. Don't wrong. Conner Gregory is successful for sure, even if he trips over some of those moments. Winning the Diaz rematch.

That was huge. Huge. He talked and he backed it up. and now he never has to win another fight again. But he had to reach that level with that combination of talking and in cage success. Shell-s-owned literally, almost every big fight he had, he did not win. He did not win. Did not beat Ninosolva the first time?

Did not beat Ninosolver the second time. Did not beat John Jones and lost several other notable big fights. But it didn't matter. It didn't matter because of, like we said, the combination of over-the-top arrogance with this sort of unique sincerity and humbleness that no one else can quite match or balance. Again, I don't think you'll see it again. I think too many people took the wrong lessons from what made him successful. Again, we mentioned Colby Covington.

Colby Dovington is the worst case of someone aping, McGregor, aping Sonan, did not really get how to make that act work in a truly bankable way. It may have saved his own career and had some success, but he was never going to become a 700K to a million peer review seller. There was a ceiling to his act. clearly there was no ceiling to Chil Sonan's act, and it isn't over. He's one of the most popular podcasters. He works for multiple companies as a broadcaster.

I don't know if anyone else can say that. Again, has run people the wrong way, and yet somehow still, as Sheim's kind of pointed out, kept a pretty good reputation as someone who was well liked and respected. And again, most importantly, hireable. He's just around. He is always on our screens. Chil Sonan is an entity that is just always around. So there's no one on damn that we've done so far, Jed, that is like this personality.

So I guess I could say my question at the beginning of the show was answered. Well, I'm glad we answered it for you. And I won't spend too much time closing up because we've talked forever. And I also wrote about Chale Sunnan. It's one of my favorite things I've ever written. I wrote it after he retired. And the only interaction I've ever had with Chale came after I wrote this. And he DM me and was like, that was, that was.

I was really beautiful. Thank you. And I was like, anytime, buddy. Great. And I don't want to rehash that because you should go read my words there on MNMVFighting.com. It's a great, great website. And it's great piece of work for me, frankly. But basically, I said everything we've talked about. And I summed it up with, you know, that Chale has one of the things that sticks out. And I think is the defining career trait of him is not the fact that he, was and also ran. Not the fact that he was always a bridesmaid never a bride, but the fact that his career is not the career of Alexander Gustafson or Anthony Smith, guys who got to the pinnacle and couldn't quite get over the hump. That is not the thing you think of first with him

because he willed it not to be. Through sheer force of his individual efforts, he did all the stuff we talked about. And he was able to pivot and continue moving and continue changing. the narrative about him. And so when other fighters get caught with PEDs and it is forever a tarnish on t.J. Dillishaw's legacy, that will always be the first word that a huge chunk of people will say. Okay, but he took drugs. Chale Sondon, that doesn't hang over him. It is not a monolith around his neck in the same way that it is for other people because he embraced it. He didn't shy away from it, took it head on and then incorporated it into himself as a person and character. And so he is a guy who just knew who he was, what he was, and how to maximize that for the

sport he was in. And, you know, didn't get said enough, frankly, because of the way his career worked, but he's also a pretty damn good fighter. And that's, that's what we're here. We're here to remember damn good fighters. And Chal Sondon, you were one of those. So thank you, Chale P. Wesleyan, Oregon, thanks you for keeping those mean streets clean.

And we thank you all for listening. If you hung on for the two plus hours that we just talked about, Chales-Sunnan, I'm sure you had a great time. We certainly did. And until next time, love y'all. At Holiday Magic at Holt Renfrew with gifts that say I know you. From festive and cozy fashion to Lux Beauty and Fragrant sets, our special selection has something for every style and price point.

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