MMA Fighting - ‘DAMN! They Were Good’ | The Legendary Career Of 'The Iceman,' Chuck Liddell

Episode Date: June 16, 2022

DAMN! They Were Good is podcast where we celebrate the careers of some of our favorite fighters ever. This episode, Jed Meshew is joined by Damon Martin and Steven Marrocco to discuss one of the most important fighters in MMA history: Chuck Liddell. Liddell’s career spans from the pre-Zuffa UFC days up through The Ultimate Fighter boom to MMA’s emergence in the mainstream, and it did so in part because Liddell helped push the sport there. Dubbed “The Iceman” for his stoic demeanor, Liddell captivated fans with his presence and performances, authoring some of the best knockouts in the history of the sport, becoming the first true crossover star for MMA, and serving as the standard bearer for the UFC during its most pivotal time. Without Chuck Liddell, it’s possible there is no UFC today. Follow Jed Meshew @JedKMeshew Follow Damon Martin @DamonMartin Follow Steven Marrocco @MMAFightingSM Subscribe: http://goo.gl/dYpsgH Check out our full video catalog: http://goo.gl/u8VvLi Visit our playlists: http://goo.gl/eFhsvM Like MMAF on Facebook: http://goo.gl/uhdg7Z Follow on Twitter: http://goo.gl/nOATUI Read More: http://www.mmafighting.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Shop now at IKEA.ca.ca slash Black Friday. IKEA, bring home to life. You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. My name is Jedmishu. I'm a writer for MMAfighting.com, the greatest website in the world. And we are back for another episode of, Damn, they were good.

In our most recent episode, we discussed UFC Hall of Famer Michael Bisping. And for this episode, we're going to have a discussion about another Hall of Famer, one of the most important figures in the history of the sport, the Iceman, Chuck Ladell. But before we go about dissecting the career of the Iceman, let me introduce this week's panelists, two of my colleagues at MMAFighting.com, and two people couldn't pick better ones to talk about Chuck Lidl with Mr. Stephen Morocco, Mr. Damon Martin, gentlemen, thank you for joining me today. How are we doing? I am good. You were really trying to say there is like, we're your oldest colleagues.

I mean, if you want a phrase like that, it's not that you're oldest colleagues, it's that you are the most veteran colleagues. You know, you have been in the game long enough to have really been there for the full, for the full rise of Chuck Liddell. And I think that's important because Chuck Ladell obviously, seminal figure in the history of the sport, which we're going to spend the next hour to 90 minutes discussing. But I do sort of think that he's been a little bit lost in the shuffle. What with John Jones emerging as kind of the consensus greatest light heavyweight of all time, I feel like people sort of forget that Chuck O'Dell was a damn good fighter outside of being a really important star and a figurehead for the sport. And also I feel like people really don't

remember just how wild and woolly the UFC used to be back when it was just a bunch of there wasn't money in it just a bunch of near-do-wells doing near-to-well things and i feel like you guys are going to have some stories and i want to start there because you've both been covering the sport for such a long time i know that you both have personal interaction stories with chuckledale and i i want to get us off on that kind of a foot to set the tone so dame and stephen what is your favorite story interaction you ever had with Chuck Liddell. Damon, I know at least one of these stories. And so let's start with you.

So I've been lucky enough to be around Chuck a lot because of my old job when I was at MMA Weekly, our founder and my mentor, the great Ryan Bennett, was really, really close with Chuck because he was the NBC sports guy in San Luis Obispo, which is where Chuck was from. So Chuck and Ryan were extremely close. And so by proxy, I became kind of close with Chuck over the year. So my favorite Chuck Liddell story outside the cage comes in 2006, I believe. I went to Toronto for the, or 2005, I remember what year it is. I went to Toronto for the Fight Network launch party.

I drove to Toronto from, at the time I was living in Pittsburgh. So it was about, you know, like a four or five, five hour drive. Drove up to Toronto for the Fight Network launch party. Had a great time, got to meet Brett the Hitman Hart. I met a ton of wrestlers, a ton of fighters, ton of fight. and actually met, oh, God, I met a famous boxer. I met a lot of people.

Anyway, so Chuck was there. Chuck Lidl was there. Cungley was there. A lot of fighters. And so Frank Trigg was there, of course, who was doing M. What a mommy crew. Chuck Loll, Cungley,

yeah. Yeah, it was a crazy thing. So, of course, the Fight Network party's happening. Carlos Newton was there. There's another one to throw out there, another name. So we're all hanging out. And then after the actual launch party, we all go and hang out at like a local pub bar kind of thing and we're drinking, having a good time.

It's all free drinks, you know, everyone's enjoying themselves. Let's put it that way. Everyone's enjoying themselves. So after the party's all pretty much done, it's pretty late. It's after midnight, maybe like 1 a.m. And I had to drive back home the next day. So I was like, I really need to get some sleep. So we're all piling into a minivan taxi to go to another place to continue drinking and having a party in Toronto on a

random. I want to say it was like a Thursday night. I only think it was like a Friday night. It wasn't like a Thursday night. And we're all piling in the van. And I'm like, I'm checking out, guys, you know, I got to drive back. I got like a five hour drive to go in the morning. I got, you know, whatever going on. I need to drive home. And Chuck, to his credit, said, no, no, you're staying with us. You're going out. I'm like, no, I'm calling the night. You know, it's been a good night. See you guys. Everyone else has shaking hands. Good seeing you. Good meeting you. All this kind of things. Not Chuck, though. Chuck's like you're coming with us.

I was like, Chuck, I'm done for the night. Chuck's like, you're coming with us or I'm going to punch you. I was like, aha, Chuck, you're funny and everyone's laughing, having a good time. And Chuck's like, you're coming with this, get in the van. I was like, Chuck, come on. Ha, ha, ha. You know, this is all a good time. So when I finally try to convince everyone I'm not going, Chuck pulls back and hits me in the arm.

Now, to be fair, we're just playing around. He wasn't being serious. He wasn't trying to hurt me or anything like that. But to put it in context how hard Chuck, Ladell hits. Chuck Liddell messing around with me and punching me in the arm literally knocked me back like six feet. And I fell over and everyone thought it was the most hilarious thing ever. And Chuck's laughing. He helped me up. Just to be clear, Chuck helped me up. He thought it was hilarious. But to his credit, I think he flicked me basically. And to me, it was one of the

hardest punches I've ever taken on any part of my body ever. And Chuck could not have thought it was more funny. He thought it was hilarious. And everyone else did too, by the way. That's pretty much, yeah, that was the end of that arm. But no, it was one of the funniest. And like, I'll never forget it because Chuck was, I mean, he was just having a good time and he was just joking around. And I know

he didn't hit me full force. He just kind of flicked at me, kind of joking with me. You know, like you punch your buddy in the arm. And oh my God, I can only imagine what it actually felt like to get punched by Chuck Ladell in those days because he just flicked me in the arm and it hurt real, real bad. And yeah, he had a good laugh at it, but it was a good time and probably one of my favorite, like, personal interactions with Chuck because I will say, of all the times

I've ever been around Chuck Lidell, he is one of the nicest, like, fun dudes to be around, just an incredibly, incredibly good guy. But I'll never forget the time Chuck Lidl punch me. I mean, not a lot. Well, actually, a lot of people probably do have a chocolate. punch me story, but not, most of them probably don't end nearly as well as that. So that's a good interaction. I'm, I'm jealous. I wasn't, I wasn't there for those days. Stephen, what about you? What's your favorite Chuck story? I think Chuck Liddell wanted to punch me, if I'm being honest,

but didn't do it out of respect for societal norms. I don't have a lot of like in-person interactions with, with Chuck, because by the time I got into covering the sport, full time, he was kind of at the apex of his celebrity and for whatever reason, I just didn't have the poll to get in the room with him. I did once, and that was the end of that because it was an interview. What did you do? It was an interview that I did after the Rashad loss and called up his manager and drove all the way to his gym from LA and sat down with him and his gym and asked him some questions, some tough questions about his style. And I don't remember exactly, I don't remember most of the interview, but I do remember asking him very specifically. So have you ever

thought about just like, you know, tightening up your punches, like sort of like not loop your shot so much. And he did not, the look on his, that crossed his face was, was tense, I'll say. And he got a little defensive. And I tried to back pedal and get the interview kind of back on the, on the right foot. I thought I did a decent job. But as I was driving home, I think maybe 20 minutes after the interview had concluded and I was driving home on the 101, his PR person told me and she's like, what happened? And that was the last time I interviewed Chuck in person. Well, you're probably lucky he didn't punch you because I don't think you would have gotten the same treatment, Damon did with the Chuck L punch.

Yeah. It's like I said, I think he did not punch me because he didn't want assault charges on his record, not because he didn't want to. Well, that's always a good choice. Well, thank you, boys. I think that set us up really well for this because we have a lot to talk about because Chuck Ladell, his career was not the longest in terms of total fights. I mean, he ended his career with 30 professional bouts officially, but it is a rich text to parse through.

So let's hop to that. But before we do that, as always, I'm going to give a brief recap of Chuck Ladell's accomplishments just for the listeners. I'm sure everyone knows who Chuck L. is, obviously, but I feel like this will be a good start. Chuck made his UFC debut at UFC 17 in 1998, which coincidentally was also his MMA debut. He put together a 12-in-one record, but then lost to Randy Couture at UFC 43, which we will talk a lot about that fight. That was the first big setback of his career.

He then went, was the UFC's avatar in pre-19. pride, the 2003 middleweight tournament that they held, the idea being to set him up versus Van der Le Silva, didn't end up happening because he lost to Rampage Jackson. But after that is when Chuck Ladell became the Chuck Lidell that everyone now remembers, came back to the UFC, put his career defining run together, claimed the light heavyweight title off Randy Couture, defended it four times. Then again, lost the rampage Jackson losing his belt. And that was basically the end of his career.

He fought a bunch more, but he won. only one of his remaining, I think, six fights. The lone exception, they finally did do the Vandali Silva fight. And then he retired in 2010. Sadly, that was not the final bout of his career, though. He ended up coming back in 2018 for a awful, awful, awful fight against Tito Ortiz, the trilogy bout, hosted by Golden Boy promotions. And it was sad, and we're going to talk about it, but the less we talk about it, the better.

All in all, though, Chuck Liddell's career boils down to this for me. He fought 12 champions or Hall of Famers over the course of his 30-fight career. He had an overall record 21 and 9. He was a light heavyweight champion from 2005 to 2007. Four title defenses, two fight of the nights, two knockout of the nights. Still has the record for most knockouts in the UFC light heavyweight history. And he was inducted into the UFC Hall of Fame in 2009. So that sets the table for Chuck the Iceman Liddell.

and we should just get into the first award because it's always the biggest. We always spend the most time. And I think it's the one where we have a lot to talk about here. It's the Mount Rushmore. So what are the four signature performances of Chuck Liddell's career? They can be all wins. You can have losses in there. It's sort of been a mixed bag over time.

But I think there are three that we will all agree on. And then the fourth is where things get interesting for me. So I'm going to lead off with my list, and then we can kind of debate, discuss, and sort of parse it out. For me, number one, has to be Tito Ortiz at UFC 47, just chronologically. That is the fight that Chuck had been chasing for a long time. It wasn't for the belt at that point, but because of what had happened with Tito and Randy, et cetera. But that is the seminal fight kind of in his career, the one that's the big turning point. Also one of his best performances feels like that absolutely has to be in.

and not rush more. Number two, Randy Gatorre at UFC 52. He wins the UFC light heavyweight title. If that's going to be on everybody's list, I'm almost dead certain of. Number three, Vandale Silva. I think even though it was well past their sell-by date,

UFC 79, he and Vandale finally fought. He got the win that had been 12 years of buildup, essentially, to get that fight. And it's still delivered. It wasn't what we wanted, but it was still, even past its prime.

it was still a pretty good, pretty good fight to have. And then I'm closing it out. I have a couple of options here, but I rounded my mount Rushmore out with Vernon and Tiger White at UFC 47, not USC. I think, hold on, I don't remember where I have this fight at. Vernon Tiger White was UFC 49, not 47, sorry.

Mainly because it's just one of his all-around best performances. Vernon White was way too tough for his own good and got dropped like 27 times before he finally got put out. And then it's that iconic CO that used to populate all of the pre-fight packages where Verdon White just kind of falls backwards like he got shot while he's

stepping in. And so that is my four on the Mount Rushmore. Damon, I'm assuming you agree with three, but am I right or am I wrong? Tell me what your list is. So three out of four, absolutely the same. Excuse me. Chuck versus Tito, UFC 47. I was

there. First UFC card I ever attended. That card was insane. I remember... What was that like? I can't imagine being at an event, like, during that time period, and especially like that event, right? Because that's, that's like the biggest event they'd ever had at that point.

Yeah, it was at Mandalay Bay, and it was insane. And it was a good crowd. That was the night that Nick Diaz knocked out Robbie Lawler. It was a crazy card. That was back when UFC cars were like seven fights deep. So, like, it wasn't like an insanely like long card at that point, but it was a lot of fun. That was also, uh, Ginky Sudo kicked off the card against Mike Brown. I remember that fight.

And, uh, I'm trying to remember. I know Andre. Oh, yeah, that was a Cabbage Correa and, uh, Ander O'Darovsky were on that car too. Just such a beat down that fight was. Yeah. And then Chris Lytle choked out Tiki Gosin was the, the quote unquote co-main event. It was really just the fight before the main event. But yeah, the atmosphere was insane.

Um, it was incredible because there was. so much bad blood between Tito and Chuck going into that. I mean, they, they, they were the original, we were once training partners and now we hate each other narrative. We had a Pax, Damon. We had a Pax never to fight each other. And, and people forget, they were both managed by Dana White. Dana White was Tito and Chuck's manager at one point. And that's when they split and everything kind of fell apart, you know, Tito was the one who said, we had a pact, we'll never fight. And Chuck said, we never had a pact. What are you talking about? And so, It was the face of the company.

Yeah. It was the first face of the company. It really culminated in that night. And it was, the atmosphere is incredible. And I mean, again, the hatred between those two was palpable. It was an incredible event.

And again, for my first ever UFC event, hard to forget that one. So yeah, it was great being there that night. And I tell you what, I've been to a lot of loud arenas. You know,

I remember I think the loudest one I've ever been at was when George St. Pierre fought Matt Sarah in Montreal in the rematch. That was probably the loudest I've ever been at. But for a smaller crowd, at Mandalay Bay when Chuck knocked out Tito. Oh my God, that place came unglued because Chuck was so incredibly popular at that point.

Not that Tito didn't have an audience. Tito definitely had a huge fan base, but Chuck was just like the folk hero of UFC fans at that point. And so that place just came unglued. So that's obviously on the list. Randy Couture Fight, the second one, I was there for that as well. That's also the famous knight of Frank Treg versus Matt Hughes, the infamous nutshot that almost ended the fight, then carrying them across the cage. And yeah, that was a crazy one. So that was that one. I also agree with Vanderlea Silva. What an incredible fight towards the end

of their careers or towards the end of, let's say, their relevancy, I guess at that point. But what an incredible fight that was. The only one I disagreed with, the only one I went in a different direction with for my fourth one, I do like the Vern Tiger White one. Good pull. The only reason I didn't go to that route is because I was actually to speak, just to kind continue throwing out events I was at. I actually was at the fight in K-1 when Remy Bojanski lopped off Vernon Tiger White's head. It was the same night Bob Sap

fought chemo. I was at that fight. But I remember Bojansky running across the ring and lopping off Vernon Tiger White's head. So that one's the one that's ingrained in my memory

of Vernon Tiger White getting murdered. So I actually went with mine, which was kind of, it was right before he lost Randy Couture, but my fourth pick was Chuck Ladell knocking out Hanato Babaluso brawl at UFC 40. There was a head kick, KO, and at that point, I think Chuck had kind of a mass to the point where he was becoming one of the faces of the industry.

And then, of course, his next fight, he gets the upset loss to Randy Couture. No one expected him to lose to Randy, and then Randy beat him pretty handily. But at that moment, when he knocked out Babaloo, head kicked him, Chuck was at like the peak of his powers at that moment when everyone was saying Chuck Liddell is going to be the greatest of all time. So that was my fourth pick. that was originally my fourth it's in my honorable mentions you can't go wrong with it

I just wanted to round out my four with like a big K.O. And then I it's just really it was really fun to rewatch the Vernon Tiger White which is why I ended up putting it over over Babaloo one. Stephen, what about you? Where are you are you, do you agree with our three at least

our three uniform? I don't agree with the Vanderley Silva one. I almost see that as like a it was hard for me not to see that as like what could have been so much time had passed Vanderlea Silva was clearly not the guy that he was the exciting part of that fight was seeing these guys at the apex of their skills it was when van der Leis Silva walked into that octagon and said he wanted to fuck chuck and it's like yeah you can say that on this podcast that's fine

I was a little tentative, so I paused for effect. But that, even before that, Vanderlea Silva just had this career. They ran parallel careers, and they were the most intimidating guys for the longest time. They were the top of the heap of light, heavyweight. So when Vanderlae Silva got to that fight, he was not the same guy.

He was not as fast. He didn't have the reflexes. He couldn't take the same amount of punishment. So, I mean, and it wasn't in a way, it was even better for Chuck. What's that? And it wasn't in Japan. He was visibly smaller than Chuck. Yeah, a whole lot of reasons.

I mean, that was perfect timing for Chuck. That was another great break in his career. Yeah. Because. It still was the 2008 fight of the year, which bears, which may be some rose-colored glasses just because of it finally being delivered that we wanted for so long. and it's not a bad fight, but you're definitely corrected. There is an undercurrent of sadness along with that bout.

Right. And I think that was maybe when I first, you know, dip my toes into that undercurrent and started doing so a lot more as I started covering the sport a lot longer. Because, you know, we'd been spoiled up to that point. I mean, a lot of these highlights that were talking about, Chuck or his heyday, he was the first, breakout star in my eyes. I mean, like there's, you know, 47 was before tough. And so,

um, to me it was a little bit less culturally significant than 50, 52 coming off that show and having him knock out Randy and claim the light heavyweight thrown and then the performances that he had after with Babaloo and, um, white and, no, I'm sorry. So that would be, he did the rematch, he had Horn, he had Sabral, and then Ortiz, which I think is his top buy rate, if I'm not mistaken. The second Ortiz sold just under a million, I believe. I think if I recall at the time, I think they were saying that it was the U.S. first ever million dollar pay-per-view, but it's, you know, it's certainly his biggest,

most successful commercial venture by far. Right. So the way I thought of this was kind of in my mind, like what are the knockouts, what are the highlight real knockouts? knockouts that I think of, that these ones that followed him his entire career that really just like encapsulated Chuck Liddell at his best.

And the one was Guy Metzger because Guy Metzger Former champion. Just getting caught with that right hook and going into the shadow realm, his leg bent awkwardly at that angle.

Certainly not a popular choice. I mean, this was kind of when he was coming up. but just a brutal display of his power. And then the other one was the first Babalu fight, and I think that's just because I have a natural affinity for head kicks landed in fights, but head kicks set up the way that he set that head kick up. You know, it's one of the things that I love about Donald Seroni,

like the way he sets up his head kicks with his hands, and then to have it connect the way that it did, the wobble of Babaloo's legs is what I remember. Like, just that the force of the shin hitting his forehead was just so amazingly powerful that, you know, to me it was just one of those highlight real things that has to go on your best of lists. And then as far as the Rushmore, I did include the Evans fight because it was, to me, the signifier of his time sort of past. Love that. Look at that. Coming in with... I mean, it was the natural, like the other things we can sort of explain, you know, with 43, he was, he, he didn't train well. He was underprepared for the wrestling. You know, the pride final conflict, you know, he was out of his element. There were ways to explain away a lot of these things, you know, with the second Quentin Jackson fight, he got clipped. Keith Jardine cut it out of this awkward style. But, you know, 88 was kind of a refutation of his skill set.

What's that? He also may well have beaten Keith Jardine. Exactly. Split decision that I think I remember scoring for him and it was very weird. It was a weird fight. He was a weird opponent. He made everyone fight weirder. But at 88 it was a full refutation of his skill set because he got essentially beaten to the punch.

All these punches that were working for him earlier in his career did not work anymore against these younger, faster guys. That was the quietest I've ever heard. I talked about the loudest arena. That arena Atlanta was the quietest I've ever heard a crowd get after a finish. The crowd went dead silent when Rashad knocked out Chuck. It was stunning because usually crowds go nuts. This one went dead.

It was freaky. Like it just went dead silence. Funnily enough, Damon, my experience, my similar experience is also a crowd in Atlanta. It was UFC 201 when Tyron Woodley just blew the doors off Robbie Lawler. That place, you could hear a pin drop after that. It is. Atlanta, just not ready to see old legends get put to pasture. Yeah, it was crazy.

Okay. Steve and I love and respect that you came at this with a better encapsulation of his career and not nearly so focused on, oh, look, Chuck did, Chuck killed the guy. That was fun. So it's a solid, solid list of four. I do have a couple of honorable mentions that I just want to throw out there. The one, I think we're going to talk about this in a separate category, but his trilogy fight with Randy Gattour, I think that's actually his best performance, but that's for

obviously another category as well. But for me, just because it bears mentioning, the infamous brawl with Pat Militich, Tito Tise Lee Murray, that whole thing. You heard that, you know, if only we had video of that, because I've heard that story told 500,000 times of that brawl. But if we had video, I think unquestionably, that would be one of the top four best fights of his career, just to have that image. But it was back in the day before everyone had a camera on their phone.

So unfortunate. Damon and I were actually going to do a podcast on that. And I was trying to get police records. And there was just, there was nothing. there was nothing to get. Otherwise, I was kind of hoping to shed some more light on that and maybe get a new wrinkle to the whole story. But unfortunately, it happened so long ago that they just didn't have anything. Yeah, I've heard, I've heard every possible version of that story because Ryan Bennett, once again, my mentor, the guy who got me into this business, was there. He used to

be the in-ring interviewer for the UFC. Uh, which interesting story. Do you know, do you know why he stopped doing the interviews in the ring, Stephen? Have you heard that? You probably remember this story, don't you? You probably told me it at one point, but I've forgotten. He was too tall. Ryan was, I'm six foot three. Ryan was I think six four. He's about an inch taller to me.

He looked like when he would interview like Jen's Pulver, he looked like he was like twice of gin, pulver size. And they said he was too tall. He was towering over the, he was taller than Chuck Ladell. Like Chuck was like the guy at that moment. And there's a famous in-ring interview of him interviewing Chuck.

And he's like, taller than Chuck. So he was too tall. But anyways, he was at that brawl at Albert Hall or whatever it was called, Yos C-38. And he told that story, he told me that story right after that whole thing. He told me that story after it happened.

And he was there. I've heard it from Pat Militich. I've heard it from Tito, which Tito's version is, of course, the, you know, the I didn't really get punched. I was wearing dress shoes version.

But, yeah, but I've heard it pretty much every version of that story you can hear. Because, uh, yeah, I've heard Lee Murray's version, as well.

So, you know. Man, that would have been a great thing to have on video. All right. Next category, the somber, the sad. The I'm not impressed by your performance award. I think there are a lot of choices here, but I want to lead off with you, Stephen. Where are you coming at for this? It's another out of cage moment.

It's the interview with the, I think it's the Dallas, Dallas TV station, the local TV station. Where he was, good morning, Texas or whatever it was called. I can't remember. Good morning, Texas is correct. It was a scandal. It was as much of a scandal as we got in those days for MMA. Like, he clearly was whacked out on something. And I have never seen anything like it.

And I don't think I've ever seen anything like it since, like somebody literally nodding off in the middle of an interview. I've never seen someone fall asleep. it was obviously hilarious, but also like really, like, wow, this lifestyle is really caught up to him. The sex, drugs, and rock and roll does not work for fighting. And it was his rock star moment, you know, it was like the moment in that movie where suddenly the fame and every, you know, all the attention gets to be too much, you know,

you start burning the candle at both ends and you wind up falling asleep on camera. I think it prompted Dana to get on a Dana and Lorenzo to get on a plane fly out there or fly out to him when he got back and say what the hell are you doing? Like this is, you're our guy. What are you doing? Wouldn't shock me at all.

I mean, because that was in 07. So like right as the UFC was finally breaking into the mainstream and then the figurehead of their organization does that. It's a tough scene. Right. And then I think the, The Alleyoop is the 2018 trilogy with Tito. I think you guys probably have, I would be shocked if you didn't have that on your list,

but maybe I'm reading into it too much. Oh, no, no. That's the number one thing on my list. It's the saddest moment in probably the last five years of the May for me. If not the saddest, it's shortlist of it. And I went and just, you know, to do my due diligence, went and watched again last night. and it only got worse from even my memory of it because I remember thinking immediately when he stepped into the cage, oh, this is really, really bad.

It is really, really bad. And it's even worse than I remember it. It is everything, all of the bad thoughts that people had going into it were confirmed and then some. So that's my obvious number one. I've got a few others. But Damon, what about you? So originally I was actually, I was going to go with the, uh,

Texas, the Good Morning, Texas, because I wondered if anyone else would go with a moment over a fight. So that was my original one because that was such a, such a crazy moment. But I ended up switching it to go with it because honestly, you know, as a person who's covered Chuck as long as I have, it has to be the Tito Ortiz 3 fight. I mean, that was just, it was just hard to watch. I mean, it was just hard to watch. It should have never been sanctioned. Should have never been sanctioned. Should have never happened. It was just a really sad. And listen, say what you want about Tito, you know, but like, if you watch Tito and Chuck 1 and you watch Tito and Chuck 2, you know right away in their primes, Tito was nowhere near Chuck Lidale.

He just wasn't. That was always a horrible matchup for him. Chuck had his number at every turn. It was not close. There was never a moment either of those fights where he thought, man, Tito might get him. Tito might win. No, Chuck dominated. Chuck was in Tito's head.

Chuck was the anti-Tito. He was literally everything Tito or Tito. could not hope for it to fight. And to see what happened in that third one was just sad. I mean, it was just sad to see that. And it kind of breaks your heart because when you see, when you go back and watch T, because there's a,

there's a comparison. You can watch Tito 1 and Tito 2 to know how Chuck Liddell fought Tito Ortiz. Then you watch part three. And it's just awful. I mean, it's just, he's slow. And there's no reaction time, no reaction time. Chin was gone. I mean, age caught up.

It was just, it was terrible. It was one of those fights. Like I wish if there was one moment, like I know how Dana White talks about, I wish we could erase that Matt Hamill fight from John Jones record because it was a terrible DECU or whatever. Like if there's one moment I could erase, it would be that. Like I just wish we didn't have that memory of Chuck Liddle fighting Tito that third time. Well, it gives me a perfect opportunity to jump on my soapbox here for a second because when we're talking about sanctioning, the Chuck Lidale that we saw in 2018 stand across from Tito Ortiz is a guy who passed his medicals.

and that's according to Andy Foster. So what does that say about the medicals that they're giving these guys? It really speaks to the dearth of context in regulators' decisions about who gets passed and who fails. Because Chuck undoubtedly had to clear a higher bar for his medicals. He may have had to do a neurological scan. He may have to do an MRI, a specific, a better MRI than others. he still passed everything, you know, but he clearly, clearly is not the same guy or was not the same guy at that point. But that's a snapshot. The regulators too often are taking a snapshot as the

gospel truth when you really need to take a look at the whole history. And because there's no centralized record system other than the database of the ABC, which only tracks. immediate suspensions, it's really hard work to go and track down all this information that may actually give you some really valuable, valuable information about where these people are actually at. Because if you looked at his medicals before, if you took those same tests 10, 15 years ago, and then you took them 2018, clearly there would have been an issue. But instead, you know, you take it from a slice of time and now he ends up suffering more damage. that quite possibly could have had irrevocable consequences to the rest of his life.

And so it's not only a fight that shouldn't have taken place. I mean, it's a fight that's borderline criminal. Like, it's probably, if we do a damn they were good for regulators, it would be on my lowest moment for Andy Foster. And I love Andy. Andy's the best regulator out there. But even like we had an argument about this, a polite one, But an argument nonetheless, it's like, this should have never been sanctioned.

So I'm off my soapbox. He was, what, 48? Was he 48 going into that fight? Is that right? I believe he was 48. He wasn't quite 50. And look, one man who thought it should have been sanctioned was Tito Ortiz, who celebrated like he had defeated the boogeyman.

It was every part about that whole fight was shambolic and awful. But I have another contender here. I mean, obviously, the two we've talked about as far as the low points of his career are very, very low and very, very clear. But I think there are two other things that just bear mentioning at the minimum. One, Chuck L. is historically bad at reality television, and I just feel like that merits being mined because he was the first dude kicked off of Celebrity Big Brother when he did that. And he went off on like day two of dancing with the stars. he is not good at reality television i'm sure he'll he'll be on another one at some point in time in the future and he will suck at that too so that's bad and then maybe this is low maybe i'm

taking a cheap shot he was really really bad as a ufc vice president because he didn't do anything at the ufc vice president which is why when the ufc sold the ufc he was immediately relieved of duties, and Forrest Griffin still works for the UFC because he did stuff. So those are my not impressed by his performances. To be fair, to be fair, Jed, let's remember when Chuck Liddell retired and Dana White gave him a job, he said he was the vice president of fun. So he didn't really have responsibilities. Do you remember that when he said, I'll make Chuck Lidale the vice president of fun just

so he doesn't fight again? So technically, knowing Chuck, he probably did his, he probably did. He probably did his job a little too well, if I'm being honest. So he probably was the vice president of fun. I'm just throwing that out there. I totally forgot that that's what Dana said. Oh, my gosh. Man, the UFC was such a weird place 12 years ago.

Next category. One of my favorites, and I have a lot of choices here. So this is even more my favorite category. The Ivan Minjavar Award. This category is for the weirdest, most surprising opponent of fighter ever face. You can also, you know, if there aren't a bunch of opponents jumping out at you, it can also just be a very strange moment in their career. Like I said, I have a number of choices for this. So I want to go last year.

Damon, let's start with you. Where are you feeling? Who is Chuck's Ivan Minjavar? Because Bears mentioning, mentioned it every time. This award named after Ivan Menjavar, who is the first career opponent of all-time great George St. Pierre. I've Medjavar a career bantam weight. So it's remained super weird that that was GSP's first fight to me. So, Damon, where are you at here?

You know, I mean, I saw a few early in Chuck's record that I was kind of like, that's weird that he fought that. Like, he fought Jeff Monson, which is weird because Jeff Monson is, you know, that's just such a random fight to have on his record. And then he has Marilla Bustamante, who was clearly a middleweight. You know, when they had the Jeremy Horn rematch, like, that was literally made because Jeremy beat him early in his career, and so they rematched it, and Jeremy had no business being in there with Chuck Ladell at that point. But I went with 2003. I went with Alistair overing. And more of the context of that fight, because he had lost to Randy, and they sent him to pride.

And, you know, we think about the UFC doing co-promotion now, which is like a bad word. You would never imagine him co-promoting with anyone. Not only did they send Chuck Liddell to Japan to fight in the Grand Prix. was doing commentary with Mara Rinalo, and I think it was Mara Rinalo and Boss Rutan, if I'm not mistaken. Whoever the commentary team was. It was quadrus. Was it quadrus? Okay. Dana was on commentary, doing commentary for the Chuck Liddell fights, which was so bizarre.

So that to me is the one that sticks out because you would never see that happen now. It never happened again. And Chuck Lidell fighting Alistair Overim, who at the time was a light heavyweight, a lot of people who know Alistair the Ream Overreem now would never imagine that guy. fought at light heavyweight, much less actually had a big part of his career at light heavy weight. But he fought him at light heavyweight. Chuck knocked him out. And of course, you know, he followed that up with the Quentin Rampage Jackson fight. But the Overeem one is just still stands at the top of my list because Overeem is now made his career as being a heavyweight.

In Japan, Dana on commentary, it's just a really bizarre set of circumstances. And we will, I would say, I would, I would wager to say we will never ever see anything like that. again involving the UFC Oh, I think you're for sure true And that's Overeem was on my list For all the reasons you said And especially because I think Fans listening to this right now

Who don't aren't like steeped in the history of the sport Might not recognize Like not only was Oveream much smaller He was smaller than Chuck Like Chuck was the bigger fighter in that fight And so you go back and watch it It is super weird Just be like skinny

Skinny Ream is like When you go back and watch that Look at Skinny Ream it is, like, it is weird. Like, it is so bizarre. It's, it's like, it's like watching early Barry Bonds. Like, it's so very different. It really is.

Theoretically, they may share some points in common in that analogy, but I'm not here. We're not here to litigate that. Steven, what about you? I put Jose Landy Johns. I'm not a huge. Exactly on my list as well. Oh, that's good. Because he was the.

prototype for shootbox stars. He was back in the day, kind of like he had all the hype as this well-rounded threat, like the first really well-rounded guy who could do everything really well and was super aggressive in the way that we came to know Vanderland, Mauricio, and Anderson, all the other shootbox products.

And that was a fight that took place in the murder ring, otherwise known as the IBC. And that was the one where they had like the net in the bottom of it. Oh, that's right. It was like the Valley Tudor ring. They had it like at the, yeah. This is where Mark heard of his thing.

This was where Vanderlea Silva headbutted people into oblivion. It was a, and he went down there. This is how tough this guy was. Yeah. Not only did he go down there, Stephen, this was his second fight. He was his second professional fight. Well, MMA fight. He was a kickboxer for a long time and he was also a wrestler growing up.

But, you know, he did not have, I mean, but back then, I mean, this just wasn't the same sport, you know. So the fact that he's hard to qualify this as a sport even this is. Exactly. So the fact that he did that in his second MMA fight, pretty fucking impressive. Yeah, Jose Landi Johns was the first thing that jumped out at me. So I'm glad to see that both of you had two on my list. I had two more. Real quick, I just, just real quick, I want to say, you have not said it.

Come on. How do you, how do you say Jose Landy Johns was saying Jose Pele, Landy Jones? He had one of the best nicknames, Pele. Can't forget the Peleckney nickname. Yep. Absolutely. I have two more, and they come from very different perspectives. one, pretty deep in his UFC career.

He fought Amar Suluwev, who is notable in this instance, mainly because he was charged with being a contract murderer, like a hitman. And like, when we talk about the history of the sport and how MMA is so different than what it used to be, you've got characters like Lee Murray, who organized allegedly, now I guess not allegedly because he's in jail, organized the biggest heist in the history of the planet or Omar Sulu-Wev,

who allegedly was a contract killer but then died before that could bear itself out. Like that's just a different breed of human being we're competing in these things. And then the other one for me, just a very weird little note,

Kenneth Williams. So in Chuck's fourth fight, he fought a guy named Kenneth Williams who only fought one other person in his MMA career Quentin Rampage Jackson that dude fought two guys he fought Chuck Lell and Rampage

and it was like this sport is not for me I am done with this and it just cracks me up to think about a guy who's you know just fight picking a fight and then ends up being two all time greats are his only opponents in the sport I would love to have a beer with that dude

because I bet he has stories Yeah, how do you talk about a way to go out like on that like what are your two fights? Chuck Liddell and Quentin Rampage Jackson. Who else? That's it. That's all. Didn't. Yeah, just fought one.

And then it was like, sure, I'll fight this other guy. Why not? Just absolutely insane from home from work after that. Like, hon, I think I'm going to do something else. I don't think this is working out for me. It was like, it was like John Favreau and friends. He just kept coming back for more. Well, at least, at least when he fought Chuck, like Chuck,

had only had a couple of fights in MMA, obviously the kickboxing background. He fought Quentin at Gladiator Challenge when Quentin was like 8 and 1, and he had only fought Chuck. He was like, sure, whatever. Again, that dude probably is incredibly fun to talk to, at least in this instance. Moving on. Next category. The Fador Sweater of Absolute Victory Award. This is, I feel like it should be self-explanatory.

It is, what is the, if you could have one piece of memorabilia from Chuck Liddell's career, what would it be? I think there is one very obvious choice. And I'll just lead with that, but I have another couple that I enjoy as well. But the one that is most obvious to me is his iconic Iceman shorts, I think, and I'm not 100% sure that the Iceman shorts as we think of them started with the first Bobaloo fight. with the actual Iceman trimming over top the blue shorts. But any of those from that run, those are some of the most iconic fight shorts in the history of the sport. And I think that's the easy choice.

But Stephen, let's go to you. Where are you at here? Well, this was the one I kind of struggled with, as you know. But the shorts are a good choice. But on the rando tip, I would say like the couch that he got carried on in the desert for the tough show. just because it's fun. You know, you like to see old movie memorabilia, TV memorabilia that kind of, I don't even know if it's even, it exists anymore or if it was literally hacked into pieces with a with an axe after they got done with a with a segment.

It probably just lives in the tough cap like house. They probably just put it in the tough house. And there it remains. And it lives there now. It's probably just an Airbnb now. Yeah. Stay in the first tough house. Actually, that's a good question.

I wonder if it is. That'd be a good place to stay. That'd be a fun Airbnb experience to stay in the tough house. If you can Airbnb the tough house, I vote that we as a company do that for a gathering. We Airbnb and gather in Vegas. Officially putting that forth. Definitely down for that. With a sunken living room, that was a big thing.

Yeah, that's my random ass choice. Damon, what about you? So to make you a little jealous, Jed, I actually, I should have busted them out. I got to find it. It's in my garage somewhere. I actually have a pair of Chuck Liddles shorts. He gave me. Oh, that's burying the lead.

One of the only, one of the only, one of the only, I have, I have like three, I have like three MMA shirts or shorts that I've ever kept from people giving me things. I have a WCT shirt that they gave me before they. That is a sick own right now. Yeah, before they were, before they were out. I have a pair of pride gloves. that Ryan Bennett gave me and I have an affliction Fador versus Josh Barnett shirt

for an event that never happened I kept that because, you know, how could you not? But I have a pair of ice men shorts that Chuck gave me signed once upon the time many years ago. This is the first.

This is the first time for this category that somebody has actually owned the thing we were talking. Yes, I actually do own a pair of Chuck Liddell shorts signed. mine is a weird one. I wanted to go completely off the cuff because we talk about his fight career.

I originally, I was like, well, how about the gloves that he knocked out to Ortiz with the UFC 47? Sure, that's an easy answer. But I decided to go a little off the radar here. I'm going to go with the truck that Chuck Liddell was driving when he made an appearance on Entourage back in the day when he took Johnny Drama's parking spot. And they pulled in and Chuck was doing his best acting performance.

making an appearance on Entourage, getting into an argument with Johnny Drama, and then later that night, he calls Johnny Drama into the cage to fight him and ends up being part of a prank show called You Got Got, starring Pauly Shore. Yeah, You Got, You Got, Starring Paulie Shore of all people. But Chuck Liddell's truck from Entourage. It was a giant truck. I only know what kind of truck it was, but it was ginormous. It was a huge truck.

And obviously it wasn't really Chuck's, I'm sure. Maybe it was, I don't know. but I always remember that scene from entourage of Chuck being in entourage. I'm so glad you brought that up because I could not figure out a place that I could work in Chuck's entourage thing. But like that that episode of Entourage still sticks with me because I'm right in the target demo for Entourage at the time that came out. I was end of high school college. Like that was that was right there. And it was like a very important moment.

It's like, oh, Chuck Liddell is not like like on Entourage. Like he's like oh, M. made it. We did it. We did it. I don't think people remember the pop culture influence that show had back in the day. Like, Antirac is huge. And Chuck being on the show was massive at the time. Jeremy Piven won like three Emmys or something, too. Like, it was, yeah, it was a huge thing. And it was, I, I couldn't find a good place to put it. Um, so I'm, I'm really glad that somebody found a way for us to be talking about Chuck on Entourage. I have one other choice that I think is the actual one that if I could have anything that I would want.

And the reason it's not my number one is because it probably doesn't exist. But I just want a copy of the game plan for his fight with Quinn Rampage Jackson and pride. Because as was mentioned earlier, Dana was there with Quadros and Boss. And as Quinn Jackson was just beating the pants off of Chuck, the only thing that was happening was Quadros and Boss were kind needle in Dana. And Dana just kept saying, Chuck's not Bob. following the game plan. He's just, he's not, he's not throwing any leg kicks and it became an

internet meme amongst the MMA kind of circles. And so I just want the game plan because that feels like really the best piece of memorabilia I could possibly own. So I'm going to, I'm not bearing the lead here. I am going to bring this up again later to another category. I thought you were about to say I'm not bearing the lead, but I have a copy of the game. With leg kicks like circled like 10 times. So I was going to bring this up later because another category, I actually have a moment from that pride thing. I'll bring it. I don't want to spoil what I'm going to say, but it's so funny to bring that up because I was 100% going to reference Dana just continuously throughout that fight saying he's not following the game plan. Chuck, what are you doing? He's not following

the game plan. I'll never forget that because I watched it and it was hilarious because he was just constantly harping on that. And like, you could hear the frustration in Dana's voice. He's so mad. He's so mad and quadros and boss like know it and they're kind of ribbon him but not being super overt it's just the is the best like that is also just we'll talk about it i'm sure at some point that fight is low key way better than i remember like that was a very very fun fight i don't didn't remember it being that way until it went back and watched it yeah that was a good one all right next category the international player haters ball uh this is named after the famous Chappelle Show skit.

And it's where we're going to nitpick him. You know, Chuck Ladell, an incredibly accomplished fighter. But this is the category where we talk about the downsides of his career, his fight game, sort of anything we want to take shots at. And I don't want to lead off because I just am still really relishing everything that just occurred with Damon owning Chuck fight shorts. So, Damon, why don't you lead us off with, let's nitpick Chuck Liddle's career? Well, I think when you look, again, having been there for a lot of this and been to a lot of

Chuck fights and actually covered like the heyday of his career, even then going back and looking at his record, and I said this before we recorded, his resume is ridiculous. Like his resume is like one of the tough, one of the toughest, one of the best resumes in history of this sport when you think about the killers he fought and when he fought them you know what i mean fighting randy at peak randy and knocking him out twice fighting tito in his prime and beating him and and you know just so many big wins on his record it's ridiculous but i think when you nitpick chuck's career it doesn't come any clearer than the end sticking around longer and i'm not even talking about the teato or tis third fight when it was clearly past his prime i'm just talking about towards the tail end when you look at the

fights with Shogun. You look at the fight with Rich Franklin. You look at the fight with, you know, Shogun where he just, he wasn't the same Chuck. The chin was, the chin wasn't there because he used to have a legendary chin. I mean, Chuck used to be able to take a punch and he, and he, and he would not go down. And he just, it just, he stuck around too long. And, you know, it's kind of like the Anderson Silva thing when, when you see a guy towards the end of his career and you're kind of saying to yourself, well, you know, it doesn't negate what they did before that. It doesn't, but it doesn't. does because you can't just forget that it happened. You can't just forget that Chuck lost and got

wiped by Rashad Evans. You can't just erase that he got wiped by Shogun Hula. You can't erase. Speak for yourself because until we did this, I totally forgot he fought Shogun. Like dead serious when in our other category about fights that we wish it happened, I had Shogun down. And then I was like, oh, wait, they fought. Yeah, it's just like at that moment, like, and I know Steve, even relate to this because he was around. Like, it was just sad to see. Like, it was just hard to watch an all-time legend kind of fade that way and not know when to call it enough, you know, like, you felt like after Rashad fight, like, okay, he did come back and out of the Vanderlay fight and that was great. Like, how amazing would it have been if he would have fought Vanderlay and just said, that's it.

Like, calling the career, I'm walking on a high note, a fight everyone always wanted to see. And that's it. And again, we'll probably enter every episode you do this on. You'll probably end up having a similar conversation because a lot of guys stick around longer than they should have, and that's just a cautionary tale of mixed martial arts. But to me, that's the biggest thing with Chuck Scherichel. When you look, even like when he lost to Randy, that's not a bad loss. Yes, he got dominated and he got taken down, but it was Randy Couture, you know, and like he got beat by Jeremy Horner in his career.

Well, again, at the point, Jeremy Horn is a really good fighter. You know, he doesn't have those kind of really bad. I mean, yeah, the Quentin Rampage Jackson fights, the two fights in there you can point at those. But again, there was a time when Rampage legitimately was the number one light heavyweight in the sport. But the end of the career, man, it's just hard to remember, hard to think about those fights and just watching how far Chuck had slipped at that point. And then how hard it was for him to finally walk away to the point where Dana was making him to vice president of fun and giving him a boatload of money just to not fight again. Yeah. For me, I agree with.

We know it's you. We know what yours is. He doesn't know how to throw straight punches. You led the show with it. I did. I put that in my lead. And that's the easy answer. I mean, the reality is he was from a different era.

The margins got a lot thinner. And the room for error got much and much, you know, less. It was just like a situation where what he was doing for the majority of his career was good for that style. and that for that time in the sport. He kind of pioneered or perfected sprawl and brawl. He could get up, he was a wrestler who didn't want to wrestle. He was like the best version of that back then. And you couldn't keep him down.

And that's why a guy like Gautour couldn't. Just go ahead and say it, Stephen. He used his wrestling in reverse. Oh, yes, exactly. Like Goldberg. Oh, God, yeah. the thing that comes to mind for me is like we have been covering this for a long time but we may not have at the time that I was covering the sport or watching the sport back then

I didn't have the context for Chuck's journey here's my big revelation Chuck was my favorite fighter by far Chuck is a big reason I'm doing this because just like all of us kind of got hit at the same time the target demographic at the right time You develop emotional bonds to these guys. And I love Chuck. I loved watching Chuck fight. I thought he was the coolest guy. He was my favorite fighter.

If everybody asked that. So watching him stick around too long was like really heartbreaking. If you look at it in a bigger context, it's the same story over and over again. Fighters don't know when to quit. But for me, it was like getting in touch with that reality for the first time and then just seeing it go completely off the rails with the 2018 fight. You know, it's like here's the guy. that was the guy. Like he was a cultural touch point. Like he was the first big star. He's a big reason why the UFC got to where it got in the mid 2000s. And he reached his limit basically and then

didn't know when to stop until he was forced to stop. And that's sad. It just it's it's for all this for all this glory and for all the stardom and all these highlights that we're talking about and all the great things that he did, you know, it's sad to watch it. For me, it doesn't erase what he did. I still prefer to think of the fights that, that are his signature moments, the great moments. I don't necessarily, I kind of pretend that last one didn't happen, maybe as a coping mechanism, psychological coping mechanism. I think we can all agree.

Just everyone agrees except for Tito and we'll just pretend it never happened. I think everybody would be on board. Yeah, and to be clear, and to be clear what you're saying, like, I don't think it negates his greatness in any way, shape, or form. It just bums me out that that's how it ended. You know, when I think about all the great moments of Chuck's career, and you can't not think about, like, the Rashad Evans one, like, that's just such a, oh, my God, just like that knockout. And then, again, like, the Rich Franklin one, like, he didn't even, he didn't even look, he didn't even look completely. Yeah, he broke Rich's arm in that fight with the, with the kicks, but he still got way laid with a, and it's just like I said, it, it didn't. doesn't ruin anything. It doesn't negate what came before it. It's just it's hard to watch a legend

go out like that. You just it's you know you you talk about the cautionary tells MMA. That's just that that's one of the biggest right. Like Chuck's got to be one of the biggest ever of a guy who stuck around too long. And suffer the consequences like looking at him now. Yeah. Yep. Because we, you know, we've talked about you know, damn they were great. The, you know, other side of that, which is to me the elephant in the room is like clearly he's suffering from some of the effects of his career wow real happy note we're yeah sorry sobriety it's okay it's okay we're gonna move on though uh into a substantially more exciting uh talking point and it's the alternate universe award so what is the biggest what if of of the fighter's career and honestly i'm going to

lead this off here because i did not have a lot because this was really really tough because, as has been mentioned before, Chuck sort of did all the things and all the things worked for him at the time, right? Like he fought all the people he wanted him to fight. He didn't really get denied opportunities. You know, you could make some other ones and I'll be interested to see you guys. But I really only had two that made sense. One is not even a Chuck thing, but in that pride, final conflict, rampage the round before.

won a split decision over, over Marilla Bustamanche, had that split decision, and he should have, he beat him, but had that gone the other way, then Chuck would have fought Marillo in the semifinals, a man he had already defeated and I think comfortably would have won again, and how that might have changed his career, because then we would get Chuck versus Vanderle, peak of their powers in pride, and the finals of this. And that's, it's a really interesting moment, but for me, the bigger one, the biggest one, the, maybe the sliding doors moment of MMA that people don't think about is, what if Dana White never met Chuck? Like, Dana came out to Vegas from Boston, allegedly Whitey Bulger threatened him or whatever,

and as you mentioned earlier, Stephen, he started managing Chuck and Tito, and that was the endrode through which Dana White and the Fertitas came to know the UFC, acquired the UFC, and the UFC became what it is. But had he never met Chuck Lidl, would that have happened? Like how would we even have MMA? Like, is it that big? And I think there's an argument that it is.

And so that's kind of the big. What if Chuck just was like not doing this thing? Dana White comes out. He, you know, was a boxer-sized coach or whatever and never gets involved with MMA. It's a huge moment. But I would love to hear if you guys have

other ones, other thoughts, anything like that. So that is a huge one. I didn't even think of that. That didn't even cross my mind. So good pull on that because you're right because he doesn't meet Dana. We may not be here today. Yeah. Like there's totally a world where the MMA is still this weird niche internet thing.

Because you have to remember, I mean, even in the early days, like, I don't know, like, I know Dana and Tito's relationship eventually sour, but Dana and Tito, or Dana and Chuck were extremely close. Like, they were very, very close. Like, business partners, friends. That's the relationship that spawned everything, really. So if that doesn't happen, you erase it from the timeline, we may not be here. Like, we don't have jobs.

MMA is not what it is today. The UFC crushes and falls, and that's it. Like, that could be it. So you may have just found, like, the lynchpin. to like, like if somebody goes back in time at one point and they stopped that from happening, MMA just disappears because that's how big that that relationship was. You're absolutely right. It didn't even occur to me.

So huge, huge, huge credit for thinking of that one. Love that. Because my answer was kind of a reverse of yours, which was if he had beaten Quentin that we got Vanderlay Chuck in that day. We got Vanderley and Chuck at the prime, at the prime of their time. That was mine. Because I was like, if he would have beaten Rampage, we could have gotten Chuck and and Vanderlea in pride in the ring and oh my God it would have been

That was the point. Yeah, Vanderlay, Vanderlay on all the supplements. It would have been amazing. So that was my pick, but I just bow down to your pick now because you're right. If Chuck doesn't meet Dana or Dana doesn't meet Chuck, we may not have a sport today.

It's a back to the future moment. It's the photo. It's the Polaroid photo where everybody's in the picture together. and then if somebody changes it, like, you know, it starts to disappear. I love everything that you said, Damon, aside from the fact that you heap praise on me, which I'm always a fan of. Because similar, in the exact opposite way, I didn't even think of if Chuck beat Rampage because in my head, it's like you said at the beginning.

There was no world where Tito ever was beating Chuck. It was just like, Rampage was just always going to kick Chuck's ass. That is just how that would have gone. And so I never even was like, well, what if Chuck could have won? It was like, yeah, Chuck could never win that. So that's why I went to, what if Rampage lost to Marillo? Yeah. Because that was the way to get to that fight.

That's probably the more likely scenario, but I just went like a direct like, what if he could have somehow pulled that off and then fought Vandal in the next round, you know? Yeah, my brain just wouldn't compute that. It was like, yeah, that can't happen. If he'd just thrown the leg kicks, the entire course of history would have changed. If he had stuck to the game plan, that's. all you had to do. Well, I am glad I have given you guys something to think about for the rest of your days in

MMA and how Chuck Liddell saved the sport from a certain collapse. Our next category, very similar, the Habib Tony Award. And I think talking beforehand, it sounds like there were some issues with this one, because this award is for the fight that never happened that you wanted to see. And I forget who said it, but Chuck really, fought damn near everybody at the time. And so there are, there's, I got a few choices here. The one that is the most immediate and jumps out, as we've talked about a lot, just him versus Vandlerley in their primes. That is obviously the fight that everyone wanted forever and we've mentioned

it a lot. But other than that, there's, it's really tough. I mean, Dan Henderson is kind of the only other big name middleweight or light heavyweight, sorry, I was doing pride thinking. at that time that Chuck didn't face. Do you guys have anybody else? You stole my answer. Dan Henderson is the only guy I could come up with. Like literally, that's the only guy could come up with that he didn't fight at that era.

Like Dan would have, Dan would have been the one guy because I can't think of anybody else. He didn't fight. Vanderley, again, Vanderley and his prime would have been the best choice. But he did end up fighting Vanderley, even though,

you know, wasn't what we, it was still, I mean, again, it was still a pretty compelling fight, even though they were. of the year.

Yeah. But yeah, I think Dan Henderson's the only guy, really. That's the only guy I could come up with on that, like, I was digging. I was digging. I was digging. Like, who else was like a legit, like, light heavyweight middleweight at that time that they didn't fight? What are you got to throw?

Ken Shamrock? Like, who else is there? Like, who else didn't he fight at that era that was actually good? Little Knog? Honestly, Ken Shamrock would have been really fun. Little Knog's a good one. That's a really good one, Stephen. I didn't even think of him.

He had a surge. He eventually hit the wall. But he was. kind of one of that that class of 05. Yeah, he was right in there. Because yeah,

the only other persons I was like, Ricardo Orona, but that just isn't a compelling fight to me, even though that kind of timeline would have made sense. Like you can say, you can say Shogun of that era, like instead of Shogun at the end, because that was clearly when Chuck was not at his best.

Like he could have said Shogun young Shogun, back when Shogh was soccer kicking Quentin Rampage Jackson in the face, that would have been fun. I wanted Shogun. Shogun was my original choice, and then I realized that they did in fact fight. So it's like, well, shit. But yeah, especially during his prime. During his prime, it's tough because he did.

The only other ones I had would have been were comedy relief, like him versus John Jones. Because that was, Chuck continued to say that well after it was obviously. Yeah. Remember that was a thing. That was a thing for a little while. Yeah. In my prime, I would have knocked him out. The other one, I was just throwing.

out there like at that because like when chuck was champion in the ufc and he was the face of the ufc in that 2004 to 2007 like around the randy kattor time because randy after he beat randy the second time randy went up to heavyweight you wonder could chuck have been a two-division champion like could he have knocked out frank meir andrea ralowsky in like that era of like tim sylvia heavyways you tell me chuck couldn't have gone up to beat one of those guys that was i didn't even think about that, but that is kind of an interesting sort of way to approach it. I'm not sure. I don't know.

It's a different era. I mean, I love, I, I'm one of those guys. Like, I still relish the old Tim Sylvia days. I like Tim very much, but like, you can tell me that he, you couldn't, you couldn't see Chuck going in there and, like, beaten the brakes off Tim Sylvia at that point. If Chuck would have put on, like, 20 pounds and Tim being Tim, like, he could, I think he could have. I don't know if he would be possible.

I don't know if he would be. prime Arlofsky when Arloffsky was really fast and big and good at that moment, but styles make fights and like, I could have seen Chuck knocking out Tim Sylvia. It wouldn't stun me. And I, that's a great point, Damon, because I hadn't even considered it. Like, I didn't even sort of think about him competing in a different way of class. Like, well, he fought everybody. What the hell?

And his best punches an overhand right, which Tim Sylvia can't lock. Which Randy Coutor knocked Tim Sylvia down with. So I suspect Chuck could have done okay with that one. Yeah, I'm just saying. There's another thing. He could have been the first ever, like two-division champ at that point. Shit, in his prime, I think Chuck would have done well against Fador. He had a hell of a chin.

I always thought that that would have been a more compelling fight than Randy Fadour, which I always thought Randy would just get stomped out. Chuck Fador, I still think I still favor Fadour, but that is a much more compelling battle. Yeah, Fadour at the height of his powers, that would have been fun. Yeah, I don't like that. I never like the Randy fight. I'm with you, Jed. I never really like that one.

Yeah. The only other fight I have that I will mention, and the timeline doesn't quite work out just because of how everything rolled. But there could have been a window where he could have fought Forrest Griffin, potentially for the UFC title, beat what with how everything shook out. And there would have been the story there with having coached Forrest on Tuff. I know that they had had at least a couple of interviews. views where once Forrest it kind of emerged as a real credible contender. Hey, do you maybe have to fight him one day, et cetera? Again, it doesn't quite line up perfectly with the timeline, but in today's day and age,

100% that fight would have happened once Forrest won the belt because Chuck, Chuck had just beaten Vanderlay and everyone kind of knew he was on the downslope, but the UFC doesn't care about that anymore. It's, all right, who's the biggest name we can put in a title fight? let's do Forrest versus Chuck who would have sold, you know, 700,000 paper views. And that definitely would have happened. But you just, you just reminded me that Forrest Griffin was a UFC champion. I feel like I've just erased.

I feel like I've erased that from my memory. Like, not because I dislike Forrest, but like, I just forgot like that actually happened. Like, he was a, he was a UFC champion for a very fleeting moment. First tough champ that wasn't Matt Sarah. Yeah. I completely like, it's just the Forrest Griffin era is so weird. because it feels like it was so long ago and yeah he beat short because he didn't he beat shogun to get a title fight it's not like he had like a big run of wins he just beat

shokun they were trying to give a title fight and so he beat he beat rampage and then got knocked out by rashad and you know why he beat rampage because it's important we talk about this he followed the game plan he took rampage in the lens a bunch he did so now we know how chuck could have beaten rampage if only he had followed that the game plan. Damn you, Chuck. We're not following the game plan. Damn you, Chuck Liddell.

All right, we have just a few more categories to wrap up here with the Sean Ferris Award for actor who should play them in a movie. This is named after we had an interior debate about this, or at least me and Casey did earlier this week about the greatest mixed martial arts film of all time. He has really bad opinions on this. I maintain that the seminal masterpiece of Never Backdown, where Sean Ferris plays bad boy Jake Tyler is the best film that's ever involved mixed martial arts

certainly the most fun and so I've named this award after him again is for the actor who should play them in a movie this is usually the most difficult award for people to come with this time I had a lot of choices actually so I would like to see did you guys struggle with this one do you have anybody that jumps off the page to you?

I had one I had one I had one. I had one. Also, while I do appreciate Never Back Down, I will forever and always stand for Warrior as the best MMA. I accept that answer. Yeah.

It's my number two. I can never forget, is it John Annake shining? They're brothers. They're brothers. Yeah. So Warriors will always hold. And actually, I got to go to a film premiere of that back in the day. So that was fun.

Anyways. My choice is kind of a kind of. off-the-cuff one, and I went for somebody who I know as a fight fan, and I feel like it, you know, if he shaved his head down into a Mohawk and he had a pretty impressive beard on TV, I went with former Sons of Anarchy star Charlie Hunnam as my Chuck Liddell. That's not a bad one at all. I should have known. I should have known you'd gone to, actually.

He's ripped. He's a big fight fan. He's gone to a lot of fights like that. He's a good actor. And I think he could pull off Chuck. Like, he's short. I've interviewed Charlie Hunnam before. I met him.

He's really short. Now, granted, I'm 6'3, so a lot of people are shorter than me, but he's like 5'9, maybe, 5'10. But they make Tom Cruise look giant, and he's like 5'2. So, you know, they could pull off Charlie Hunnam playing Chuckledale, even though he's a lot smaller. But I went with Charlie Hunnam. I just, I don't know, I've something about that look. And the fact that he actually is a fight fan, he's done boxing. Like, it wouldn't be a totally off-the-cuff choice in terms of like playing the role because he's actually done a lot of action stuff.

So, yeah, I went Charlie Hunnam. He could easily put a foo man chew on. be great. That's not a bad choice at all, Dana. I like that one. Speaking of guys who have, you know, boxing experience in movies, what about Russell Crow? Russell Crow is not a bad choice. He did not make my list, but I, he was on the, I was considering him because I'm like thinking of the Russell Crow from LA Confidential because he's got that perfect. I'm thinking, you know, if you want to cast Chuck Wright, you have to have somebody who has that sort of simmering rage, rage underneath the surface, the menace of like, if I say one wrong thing against this guy,

I'm going to pay with a broken jaw. So I think Russell Crow in LA Confidential and, you know, maybe a little bit of gladiator. Yeah. He's also a little pudgy. Which kind of reminds me of Chuck in the offseason. Although have you seen, have you seen Russell Crow lately? No, I have not. He's very pudgy.

He's gone, he's gone full NFL retired offensive linemen. Let's put it that way. Well, that can go two ways because NFL offensive linemen either get fat or they get very, very skinny. Okay. One of the two. He went the other way. He definitely went the other way. If you see, he's in Thor Love and Thunder.

If you look at the trailer for that, he's... Yep. I think both of those are totally good. My choices, I'd Liam Hemsworth, who I think fits a lot of the same Charlie Hunnam role as you. As you said, Damon, I was just trying to get a guy who's bigger, a little more physicality. and then it started as a joke, but the more I kind of looked at side by sides, Jacob Bertrand, who, Damon, you may know off the top of your head. Hawk.

Tell me all about Hawk. He is the actor Hawk in the show, Cobra Kai. And it was originally just a joke because Hawk and a Mohawk, and I was like, oh, that'll be funny. And then I looked at them, and he is obviously smaller because he is a child or, you know, in his 20s. but you give him a few years to grow up when we're making our chocolate al biopic put on a little bit of weight he's shares some of the same facial thing a little just add a little breath he's got a big wide head

and already knows how to rock a mohawk so he's fine so i i love that choice actually because if we're talking about a couple years down the light because he's like 20 years old give him like five years put some bulk on i could see that it again it was a joke and then i was like oh actually this kind of works because the problem with this category is always like Russell Crow would be a good choice in a lot of ways Russell Crow is also old and so it's hard to do 30 you know 27 year old chuck or whatever in his you know athletic prime or peak and they just don't quite match up even with technology but I would say Tom Hardy too but he's again like he's done warrior already that was the one that stuck out to me first but like he's already done warrior my problem is that

I have an unreasonable love for Tom Hardy, and I would put him as like every single person. Tom Hardy is, he is just the best. I've, I've rubbed shoulders with Tom Hardy briefly. Was it at the Warrior premiere? No, actually not. It was actually at San Diego Comic-Con when he was promoting Venom. I was in the media area, and he was up there. My girlfriend actually got a picture with him.

But yeah, he was doing media for Venom and he was going down the escalator and I was coming the other direction. So, yeah, that was my brief interaction of acknowledging Tom Hardy. My great hope is to one day do an oral history of the film Warrior. So then I will get to talk to Tom Hardy. And then I can tell him about why I'm a cutting board of him. I've interviewed the director from Warrior. I actually interviewed him a couple times. I interviewed him because he did that movie with Ben Affleck, not too long ago, the basketball movie.

Oh yeah, I forget the name of it. Gavin O'Connor's his name, but yeah, he did that the way back. Is that what it's called? The way back, I think it's what's called? Something like that, yeah. But yeah, he did that. Way off track.

Yeah. But anyways. This is not damn Tom Hardy was great. Tom Hardy is great. Let's just be clear. Okay. We have established an optimal actor for him, and I'm going to say it's Jacob Bertrand.

But the other ones I'm okay. With Charlie Hunnam probably is one that would be the most likely should they ever do this. But now on to the Cole Conrad Career Change Award. Cole Conrad, one of my favorite weird stories about MMA, Belator champion, who just quit the sport to go trade milk. Like that was, that was it. There was no other reason.

He just, he was the champion and decided to walk away. This was the both simplest and most difficult category for me personally, because there was only one answer for me. and it's very, very boring, but I could not think of anything else. And it immediately jumped out at me, and it is because, as was off-publicized in his early career when the UFC was striving for legitimacy, Chuck has a BS from Cal Poly in accounting and could go be an accountant. That's right.

And in my head, I think of him as being like a Ed Norton from Fight Club style of accountant, who is just a regular dude who, you know, still probably has the Chinese symbol on his head, but instead of having the Mohawk, he just got a crew cut so you can't see it. But then on the weekends, he just goes and gets in fistfights and parking lots. Like that's the only thing I could think. So save me here. Give me a better answer for this, Damon or Stephen. Either one of you have to have something.

I don't have a better answer because I thought maybe I was being slick by saying he'd be an accountant because of his degree. That's what he has. His degree from Cal Poly is in business accounting. And I actually, I will disagree with you on one thing, Jed. I personally, knowing Chuck a little bit as I do and covering him as long as I do, I think Chuck would have the Mohawk. And he would have the Mohawk and he would have the Fumanchu, and you'd walk in and be like, I didn't do my taxes.

And you would see Chuck Liddle in a suit and tie with a Mohawk. I just, that would be. The Mohawk accountant. That would kind of be awesome. Do the business account. Like I can just see that. Like, he can be, again, he has a legit bachelor's degree in accounting. So why not?

Look, I can't argue. Obviously, it's the only one I had. Steven, did you have anything here? What if he was the VP of Fun somewhere else? You know, like a sandals or a. Oh, a sandals. Oh, what if he was the, what if he was the VP? Busters.

What if he was the VP of Fun at like Bellator? where they just don't know how to have fun. Maybe he could take over there and he could be the VP of fun there. Honestly, kind of surprised they didn't hire him when the U.S. he fired him to do exactly that. You know, like that could be fun. I would like to see him continue that job because clearly he was very, I mean, look, he showed up and he took pictures and he signed autographs.

And that was that job. So he did the job. The only reason they got rid of it is because they were doing budget cutbacks. But I think in the alternate universe where it's Zufa and not WME Endeavor, I think he's still, you know, essentially being an ambassador because he's always been great with fans. And he's just a compelling guy. Everywhere he shows up a crowd for him. He has charisma.

He has that magnetic charisma. And that's what he's best suited for. Let's not forget, like a couple weeks ago when Tony Ferguson got demolished by Michael Chandler, Chuck Liddell was right there at the cage, like, meeting him and like giving Tony words of encouragement. Like that's just who Chuck Ladell is. and everyone talked about it, everyone buzzed about it because it was Chuck freaking Liddle. Yeah. Also, for whatever reason, this has never struck me until right now.

I mean, at UFC 275, they had five ring card girls whose job is nominally to, you know, inform people of the round. But really, they just serve as ambassadors and fans take photos with them. Like, why can't that just be Chuck's official job that feels like, a really good one for him yeah all right second to last category the last true category the phil baroni i'm the best ever award named after the hero philip barone and this is what is the peak moment of of chuckledell's career if you know we gave him out rush more but what is the top if you're trying to find here's the absolute apex of where he was what is it and i think there are

only two reasonable arguments you can make. It is either the third Randy fight, just because I think that's probably his best performance in a cage of all time, just a very, very clean win. Or it is the rematch with Tito because that is, as we talked about earlier, the biggest selling pay-per-view that the UFC ever had up to that point, you know, almost a million buys. He's at the peak of his celebrity, the peak of his power.

Not as good a performance, frankly, as his first one over Tito, but still an excellent performance. So I think it can only be one of those two. If you have another one, please tell me. But otherwise, Damon, which one do you think is, where do you think the peak is here? I went with Chuck three. I went with Randy Couture three. I was almost going to go Randy Couture two because that was such a big moment. It was the rematch after he had gotten just, you know, spanked by, literally got spanked by Randy the first.

time and to come back and do that. But it was Tito. It was Tito who literally got spanked by Rans. That's true. Yeah, that's true. That's true. But he did get handled by Randy and a very shocking performance that no one saw coming. So I almost went with a rematch. But that was, you know, again, that was revenge. He was getting back. But the third one was just, I mean, it was arguably his best performance ever the way he beat Randy Kattori. And that one also went longer. The second final only went two minutes. You know, the third fight actually went to the second round, a little bit more time. So I got to go at the Randy fight.

because that was right in the middle of that run. Like that is Chuck's, that is his best run going from after the rampage loss and then kind of coming back from that. And that run he went on over the couple of years being championed, that was unparalleled in terms of Chuck Liddell at his absolute best. So I'd have to go with Randy three would be my choice. Stephen, what about you? I don't have anything different.

I mean, I have a very clear memory of seeing Lidell versus Cotour 3 on the cover of Hollywood reporter and thinking, ooh, we made it. It's just like, it's so weird how that was MMA. It was a we. We, as fans of the sport, made it when something like that happened.

Yeah. I mean, I've been wanting to say this the entire show, but I think we need to give big props to Damon for being one of the long, Damon is the Vitor Belfort of MMA coverage. That may or may not be a compliment. I am honestly not sure.

It's a compliment. And, you know, the idea is that he's been around forever. Seen everything is still doing it, still getting paid to do it. And he remembers all this stuff. He remembers all the shifts in the sport, you know, huge. He has Chuck Liddell shorts for Christ's sake. I mean, I just think we're really blessed to have such a repository of information like Damon on this podcast. because I got here like, you know, 2006, late 2006.

And by then, you know, Chuck was this massive star, you know, who was pretty much untouchable. And I think that's why I would say UFC 66 was like the apex, because from a business perspective, you had Chuck Liddell, Tito Ortiz, two huge stars at the apex of that exponential rise in popularity that the UFC had in the mid-odds. I just think it was a little bit more, a little bit more juice,

Tid Ortiz, a little bit more of a compelling character, a little bit bigger of a box office draw, you know, than Randy. And again, you know, Chuck had a little, had more momentum. He had beaten Randy the third time, or beaten, you know, beating him the second time.

And then Hanato, you know, trounced him again. He had all that time to build momentum. him. And so to me, I think 66 is probably the apex of his career. Yeah, I'm honestly not sure. It is, to me, it's very clearly one of the two. It probably is Tito just because of everything, everything that went into that, the second Tito. And that brings us, gentlemen, to the end of our journey. We are at the final talking point for today. And it is very simple. It is the legacy of Chuck Lidl. We have spent a lot of this podcast, essentially, eventually delivering that legacy and all of its component parts.

But when you think of what Chuck Liddell is, what he was, what he meant to the sport, what is kind of the first thing you think about? What is the definition or the defining moment or the defining story? What is Chuck Lidl's legacy in the sport? Damon, let's start with you. You know, it's funny because as a person, you know, kind of giving away. that I've been around for a long, long time covering the sport. I kind of felt bad getting ready for this show because I'm like, we talk about all-time

greats. Like, you know, we, you know, we get arguments on Twitter or Slack or whatever else you're talking to people like, who's the, is it John Jones? Is it George St. Pierre? Is this guy? Is it that guy? And I'm not saying the Chuck Lodeb was the greatest ever because, you know, he's not, he did have some rough spots here and there.

He doesn't necessarily fit in that category. But I almost feel like we don't give him enough credit for how great he was. because when I started examining his resume, it's just a murderer's row of talent. The best of the absolute best of that era over and over and over again. When people talk about, you know, fighters who don't face the best or wait forever to face the best,

or they only have a couple of top 10 guys on their resume, all these things we talk about people building resumes in MMA today, Chuck Lale fought freaking everybody. So I think that to me is the defining, you know, it's not one moment necessarily. It's just when you just look at his record. Look at his record. It is insane.

Like, I kind of forgot. Like, I was there for that. And I forgot how crazy his record was. When you think about how good Hanato Babaluso brawl was at that point, how good Tito Ortiz was, how good Rani Kattor was, how good Vitor Bell for all these fights, you know, all these guys in that era that Chuck fought. It's insane. It is absolutely utterly insane.

And yes, he does have losses in there. Yes. He doesn't have an undefeated run like John Jones. He didn't go out there and decimate every single guy he fought. But when you look at the resume, it's almost unmatched. When you think about the talent, and I know the pools a lot deeper now than it was in 2006, 2005. I understand that. But when you think about the guys he fought at that point, it is ridiculous.

So I think that Chuck never backed down from a fight. Chuck never shied away from tough matchups. That's why I'm actually shocked he didn't go to heavyweight. Like now that I think about it, I'm actually shocked. Chuck didn't do that. Just like add one more feather to his cap. Yeah, I never really considered it. But as you pointed out, it is kind of surprising that that because that's absolutely a thing that he would have just done.

Like, I don't care. I'll fight anybody. Didn't care. Like they could have said, hey, we're going to match up with Orlovsky. But all right. Like, that's just Chuck. Like, all right, let's go. Like, there would have been no hesitation in him saying, oh, yeah, okay, Arlofsky, sure, why not?

You know, like, that's just who Chuck Lidl was. And so his willingness and ability to fight anybody is and win, you know, the majority of the time is ridiculous. It's just, again, it's a resume that will be hard to match by today's standards when you look at anybody else in sport. I just think for me it's he had this aura about him that's kind of unmatched. His walkouts, you know, with the DMX and the, the, the X that he made. you just knew you were going to get violence. There was going to be violence. Somebody was going to get hurt in ways that I didn't necessarily feel like for Randy Couture, Tito Ortiz, the other stars of that era.

He was the biggest star in one of the most formative eras in the UFC. We take it for granted now because I said this before. I think we're kind of spoiled in a sense that we have all. all this talent, kind of an embarrassment of riches in some ways. We have all this history, but we forget how we got here. And Chuck Liddell was a big part of that. He was, he caught the wave at exactly the right moment. And he is one of the reasons why we all have jobs.

And he still is my favorite fighter to, I still have that emotional bond to him that I had, you know, so many years ago. So that's, like I said, I still think of him in that way. And, you know, I care for him in ways that I don't care for other fighters, you know, because he's such an important part of the history of the sport. And yeah, I mean, that really is it to me. He is, I never had the enormous emotional connection to Chuck Ladell. I was like Chuck Ladell, but he, especially kind of, I came to

the sport right as he was cresting into about to be champion, et cetera. But it just, I was drawn to different fighters than him. But he is undeniably, even at the time, and honestly still, one of the biggest stars in the history of the sport, which I think is really insane to consider that the difference between what fighters have available to them now versus then, that Chuck is still more famous, more commercially successful than almost any of them. And there are a lot of reasons for it, but it's for all the stuff we've been talking about.

He had a preternatural charisma. He is just an interesting fighter and man. And so kind of when I think of the legacy of Chuck LaDelle, it is that he was maybe never your favorite fighter's favorite fighter, but he was a man, a guy who is universally respected. I think he's, I probably would say without question, I don't think you're going to get a lot of arguments, the second best, greatest light, heavyweight of all time. But probably the most important thing is I think he is one of the five most important fighters in the history of the sport.

And that there is a good argument that he is the second most important fighter in the history of the sport behind Hoyst Gracie as it. And that's not greatness. that is just he moved the ball forward in a way that not a lot of other people even could and certainly not in a way that really anybody has outside of Hoyce Gracie and Connor McGregor and maybe Ronda Rousey and as far as import in turning M.MA into a niche thing to this global monstrosity that it is now and why we're all here. And so for that, I will always love and respect him for his fights, which honestly, if you don't have anything to do this week or the next couple of weeks, go on Fight Pass.

They have a Chuck Ladell collection. It's just all the fights the UFC has rights to, basically. It rules. I watched it all this past week. It was very, like we did Michael Bisping the other week. Michael Visping is a tough hang to watch some of his fights. He obviously has good moments, but there are just a lot of fights that aren't compelling. That is not the case of Chuck Lel.

Like, Jeff Monson is maybe the only fight that's not like a bang or. to watch in there. The rest of it is just dope as hell. So Chuck Liddell, one of the greatest of all time, one of the most important fighters of all time, and a guy who is rightfully one of the first inductees into the UFC Hall of Fame. And yeah, I don't have anything else to say,

but thank you, Iceman. Damn, you were good. So that is it for this week, ladies and gentlemen. I appreciate you for sticking along with us. Damon Martin, Stephen Morocco. I appreciate you being here. We will be back in two weeks. And for the first time ever,

I'm going to let you guys know where we're going because I'm really, really excited about it. I've been waiting for a specific reason to do this gentleman, but arguably the greatest fighter who has ever laced up gloves. The one, the only Anderson several. We're going to be talking about him in two weeks

and make sure you tune in them in. And otherwise, you'll have a great day. I love you all. The Vox Media Podcast Network.