MMA Fighting - Daniel Cormier on Retirement, Khabib Nurmagomedov's Return and Jon Jones' Place Among the All-Time Greats

Episode Date: November 9, 2020

Daniel Cormier speaks about his retirement from the sport, Khabib Nurmagomedov possibly making his return and who he should fight in an attempt to move to 30-0 and how Jon Jones' drug testing history affects his status among the all time greats. Subscribe: http://goo.gl/dYpsgH Check out our full video catalog: http://goo.gl/u8VvLi Visit our playlists: http://goo.gl/eFhsvM Like MMAF on Facebook: http://goo.gl/uhdg7Z Follow on Twitter: http://goo.gl/nOATUI Read More: http://www.mmafighting.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. Damon Martin MMAFighting.com, and since his retirement, I haven't had a chance to catch up with this guy, he will one day, I assume, be a UFC Hall of Famer. He's a former two-division champion, and now one of the best commentators in the sport, Daniel Cormier. D.C., what's going on, man? How is, how is, where are you at right now? I'm in Louisiana. How is home life in Louisiana?

Please tell me you're eating good. I am eating good That's something I always do when I come in Well I appreciate taking the time as always It's kind of crazy, man Since August happened In the fight, you've been busier than ever I was like man

D.C.'s going to retire, you're going to have some time off But man, you've had zero time off since August I've been trying to keep busy You know, trying to work And it's getting my life in order To figure out this next phase, you know Yeah, absolutely, absolutely How has it been fun? I mean, I know it's a weird question to ask, I mean, you're not really, when I say retired, is they retired from fighting? You're not retired from working because you're still working, but like, how has it, how has it been these last couple months? The transition's been fun, you know, and honestly, it's not that different, right? I feel like for the last few years, I've been kind of prepping for this life because, you know, I fought three times in 2018, but then I fought once in 19, and I fought once this year. So the reality, what?

I wasn't the most active guy anymore, right? So for the vast majority of the year, I would go in the gym, sparring, workout some, but then I was doing mostly television things in the off time. And now it's just not as much in the gym, you know, sparring and doing all those things, you know. The workouts are at home in the garage. You jump on a treadmill, maybe go sit in the sauna, and then you're good. You don't have to go get punching the head anymore. I feel like I've been almost preparing myself for this life from a couple years ago.

Yeah. I'm not going to rehash, because I know we haven't had a chance to catch up since the fight. I'm not going to rehash the fight and everything. I watch your podcast. I'll listen to your podcast, so I know everything's out there. But when it's all said and done, we know this story, and we had this conversation many times before August, which was, why are you going to be the guy to walk away and actually stay gone?

Because so many guys can't. I mean, Michael Bisping might be one. I think he might be one of the only guys I think is actually going to stay at retired, but, you know, George St. Pierre, he's floored with it constantly. I mean, we'll talk about Habibu recently. When Habib retired, I was like, man, this is one that's going to stick. Then three days later, it's not going to stick.

So, like, how have you, you, right away, you pulled out, you know, you did the, you saw the thing. Like, you made it final, like, it was, it was that. And again, I expected it, but it is surprising just because we know so many guys just can't walk away from the sport.

So for me, it was this, right? for me it was I'm so comfortable with this decision that this is what I want to be and I want to allow for every division and the company I work for to be able to just kind of go forward and it's hard to do that

when you're kind of just hanging around with the possibility that you might fight again or don't get too far away from what I want and I got to be honest demon like when Jan Behovic and those guys all were born whole, Jan is like, hey,

you want to disrespect me, get off the couch and come fight me. And I think to myself, maybe I'll go fight Jan Beholdage. You know, like, I'll go fight him

and, you know, get this done and then I can walk away. That lasted about 15 minutes. And then I completely understood that I was really done. Hold on one second, please.

Yeah, no problem. I'm sorry, Damon, it was not important. No problem. No problem. So, yeah, so, I mean, obviously,

it sounds like you, at that moment, 15 minutes into it, you're pretty resolute in your decision. Oh, yeah. So, Jan, yeah, well, because, so Jan says that, and I'm like, you know what, maybe I will go fight him. And, you know, obviously, every great fighter feels they can win.

And I was like, maybe I'll fight Jan Boholish, because there seems to be a path for that, right? Like, I didn't, I, when I left 205, I just kind of left, right? Like, I vacated the title. And now, you know, that there's new champion there with not many big-name fights on the horizon. And now he does not to be as easy. But at the time, he didn't, right? It was going to be either Glover Toshera or Tiago Santos. Well, it's a little bit, you know, when you're looking at a Jan's versus Glover or Tiago, that's a great fight.

But if you're looking at a Janz versus D.C., what's his name? Behoves. Yeah, Jan Behovic versus D.C., that's a bigger fight. Right? It's like, oh, my goodness, you know, this could be an opportunity. And I thought about that for like 15 minutes, you know. I was like, you know what? I'm good.

I'm good. I'm good. Started going all the way down to 205 and all this other stuff. Yeah, I think I'm fine. Yeah, yeah. And that was it. Yeah. I know, you know, at the end of the fights with Steepie, things got a little bit more chippy,

you know, a little chippier between you guys. And as you told me before the fight, you said, you kind of expect that. When you compete with the guy three times, it's going to be a little chippy, it's going to happen. But when it's all said and done, do you walk away from that trilogy with a lot of respect for Steep? Because, I know he, I know he, I know, I know, spoke praises about you afterwards. And I know there was really nothing personal there. It was just a rivalry in terms of competition.

But, like, when it's all said and done, like, do you walk away with a lot of respect for a guy like Stipe, knowing that was the last guy you fought? I always did respect him. I never didn't respect him. I never didn't respect Stipe. After the fights, yes, there's much more respect in that regard

that he, fought so well, he fought tough, he did a good job of winning the fight. So, yeah, there's even more respect than I had prior, but I've always respected him. I never didn't, you know, and I think that's one thing that people need to understand in regards to that rival. And I believe also that's what made the rivalry so fun and special to me, was that we could be what we were to each other

and still not have to have, like, I hate this guy, because I never really did. You know, it was always kind of, it was always kind of like built on competition. And that was, I was having a competitive guy. And I wanted to win the fights, but, you know, ultimately, he won two of the three. Yeah. What do you make of the state of the heavyweight division right now? Looks like we're going to see Steepa and Francis, too, sometime early next year here in March.

Sounds like what's going to be. You're a guy who obviously battles Stevie. I mean, do you feel like Steepa's going to be a guy who can continue to reign as champion, or do you feel like there's a chance Francis, you know, gets it done the second time around? You know, honestly, I was thinking to myself, it's a matter of time. You know, like, it's the time. Like, how long is Stephen going to allow himself to allow yourself to,

allow yourself to recover from the fight that we were in, him and I? Because when he fought me the first time, he fought Francis a couple months ago, a month, four months prior, five months prior. and I punched him and then he just kind of fell but I feel like in the second two fights I hit him even harder than I did in the first one

and he was able to withstand those punches but I think it was a lot of the buildup or the damage taken in those fights in Ghanes and then him and I took a lot of damage also so if he doesn't take some time and let that chin refresh and recover

I thought that Francis could win the fight. Yeah, it's an interesting... But not that he's out, not that he's out for a little bit and kind of seems to be letting his, uh, letting his, uh, his body, uh,

recover. That's, uh, I think that he'll be, I think he'll be fine now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Steve is 38, too. I mean, obviously he's not, you know, a young man. I know heavy weights typically. And that's why I was, that's why I was so open to be fighting with him all those times. I wasn't fighting

some 27-year-old kid at 41, you know? Yeah. I was fighting a 38 or 39-year-old guy. Yeah, absolutely. And to that point, I mean, you look at Steve, and you look at Francis,

and then maybe John Jones, I mean, at that point, if he could do Daniel Cormier, Francis, and John Jones, at that point, I'm telling Steve, walk away right now, be done with it, because you're not going to get any better than that.

Yeah, well, those are the best fights out there, right? And big ones, big ones. You know, so, you know those are big those are big fights you know if he gets to fight me and he gets to fight he gets to fight me and then he gets to fight francis gets to fight jones's effort i mean that just will solidify him as not only the greatest heavyweight of all time but one of the greatest fighters of all time those are massive massive fights especially if he can win those fights yeah absolutely let me i was going to wait till later ask you about this but you know

because, and again, I listen to your podcast, I know you kind of comment on this week to week, but, you know, the craziness of this sport, literally things change day by day, it seems like, you know, John Jones announced I'm going to heavyweight. I'm gaining weight to go to heavyweight. Now you got Israel out of Sonia going to light heavyweight fighting Jan Blahevich.

I mean, come on, there's no chance they're not going to do the Izzy John Jones fight. I talked to Curtis Blades about two weeks ago, and Curtis told me, he's like, I'm not sole John's coming to heavyweight. I'm just not sole he's going to do it. He's talked about it forever. I feel like there's going to be some situation,

come up where he's going to want to go back to like heavyweight. As we stand right now, and again, things seem to change daily. Is John Jones going to fight a heavyweight, or do you feel like maybe he's going to wait for this, is he Yon Bilhovesh thing to play out? I think he'll fight. I think he'll fight a heavyweight, but I also believe that the moment, if he gets his hands on that title, Jones will want to fight him one way or the other. Now, one thing that, uh, one thing that, um, one thing that,

One thing that Israel is saying is how about maybe Jones becomes a three-division champion, and then I go and beat him? You know what I'm saying? Like, this was, this is where things get interesting, right? Because now, now, Aisy starts to look at maybe trying to become a three-division champion, which just seems like such an absurd thing to even mention out loud. Yeah, yeah. And you never know. And like I said, I hate to look past Jan Blahovic. I mean, a lot of people look past him and Dominic Gray as thinking it.

It's so sad. It's so sad, though, because Jan has worked so hard to put himself in the position that he's in. But the reality is, I feel like people are acting that way because they've seen him lose fights before. But I think it would be a massive, massive mistake if people look past. John Behovers, I mean, he's a champion for a reason. And he is the type of guy that has shown that if you never give up on yourself, you continue to believe, and you continue to do the things you're supposed to do, you're going to win, you can become a world champion.

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. DC, let me switch gears. We talked about retirement. I mentioned your good friend and teammate, Habibna Mbaga-Metov, greatest lightweight of all time. I don't think we talked about all the goat debate and everything. I don't think there's any question at this point where Habib stands in the history of the lightweight division at the very least. Announced his retirement, I thought, man, this is a guy who's going to walk away, he's going to be done.

He made a promise to his mom. I get it. His dad, very tragic, of course. We all know how close he was with him. And then a few days later, Dana says, we talked, and he's pretty confident. You know, Habib is going to come back and try to go for 30 and O. Now, I'm not going to ask you to divulge your personal relation with Habib, because I'm sure you've had those conversations with him. But in your own head, like, were you surprised or were you excited?

now that you know that there's a pretty good chance it looks like he's going to be going for 30 and no no I wasn't surprised you know I think that when we look at at these things and Dana as a promoter and the head of the UFC that's what he's supposed to do he's supposed to be hopeful that he gets another Habibna no mega metal fight why wouldn't he and I think that's what we are today I don't know for certain that Habib is going to fight I don't know if he's not going to fight like I said I tried to keep our relationship friendship I don't want to always be talking to him asking things about his career because he's a star, right? So, but if you're Dana White, I think he's playing exactly as he needs to.

And I don't know where Habib is personally. But if you ask me still, I mean, I know this guy is the man of his word. So I don't know. I don't know what he's into. Yeah. If Habib comes back and he goes for 30 and O, and listen, I'm not going to discount, you know, other guys that are out there. Obviously, the Conner rematch would be huge, but Habib has made it clear. It's not about the money for him. It's not about, you know, fighting with Connor and getting another

$20 million payday. The Tony Ferguson fight is out there. We never got a chance to see that. And I would love to see that. But if Habib comes back for 30 and O, Dana's teasing he's got something. It's got to be GSP, right? Like, there's no other fight that would make sense. It has to be. It would have to be George St. Pierre. I believe that a big fight is what you would want in order to try and just prove himself, right? Because like you said, at this point, Habibna Mega Metal is just trying to make history. And a win over George St. Pierre would do exactly that for him. When your resume becomes so big, not many things can add value to it.

You know, and if he can go and wrestle with GSP and beat GSP, that adds value. Yeah. How do you see Habib matching up with GSP? Because it is a very interesting fight, right? It's a great fight. It's a great fight. I think George has good takedown defense. I think George has good striking.

The highest level striking that we had seen for a long time, right? George was one of those guys that almost seemed to be ahead of the times, right? He was almost ahead of the times. Like, we were all learning to strike or wrestle while George was able to do them both at the same time. And that was very rare back then. and that's why he stood out so far above everybody else. But if he fought Habib, especially after the Habib that you saw against Justin Gaitchew

where people thought that he didn't have, you know, in the stand-up, he was at a clear disadvantage. The way he fought in the stand-up, that tells you that, you know, he's got a guy, a war-round fighter in front of him that can do just about anything. Yeah. It's crazy when you think about, you know,

for years we talked about Demetri's junk, of being the best pound-for-pound fighter in the sport. I think pound-for-pound means different things to different people. I never thought Demetrius is number one in terms of competition, but in terms of skill, Demetrius was so great at everything he did. When you're looking to be walking down Justin freaking Gaichi and then going out and basically picking his submission, deciding he wanted to go for a triangle versus the number,

in that kind of a moment, like when I see that and when I see the potential of a fight with GSP, like I think in terms of talent, take all the other debates out of the question, all in terms of talent, we may never have seen a more talented fighter than Habibna Magamatov when it's all said and done. No, he man, he's so talented. You know, I think when you start talking about guys with pure talent, you know, you think about him and you think about Jones. Those guys are just so so naturally gifted.

But I think it's just that iron will to be successful and win that truly drives Habibna Mechememah to be who he is. So all those things are exactly true. You know, I don't know that we've seen many people to have the natural ability that Habib has. But also, it doesn't just take natural ability. It takes natural ability and also an ability to train and prepare for those types of competitions. Yeah. And we've had that debate ever since the fight ended, the whole pound for pound versus goat status.

And I'm a big believer in. And Khabib is number one pound for pound right now. I don't think that's a question. I think what he's done, especially in his last few fights, puts him there. Now, Goat, I still have Jones. I think what John Jones has done during his career. And I'm not talking to the title defense. I just think when the entire resume, I think it's better.

But if Habib comes back and beats George St. Pierre, who, in my opinion, is the other guy in that, you know, three-part conversation of Habib, Jones, and GSP, the greatest ever, he beats one of the other ones. That ends the conversation for me. Now, again, I know. You've already said you believe Habib is the group. But, I mean, he beats GSP.

To me, that's the end of the conversation. And, again, Jones could go on and do great things as well. But for now, Habibi beats GSP, man, that's pretty monumental. Well, when you think about Jones and his resume, a lot of those big-named guys are now behind him, right? So, like, Shogun and myself and Evans, all these rampage, all these champions from the past that he beat, it's all kind of behind him now.

And, you know, like I said, one of the most talented guys you'll ever meet. But again, for me, you know, bad tests eliminate you from the conversation. I mean, I just cannot understand how that is so hard to comprehend in a sport where we're fighting each other. You know, in baseball, in baseball, bad tests eliminates you from being considered and being in the Hall of Fame. And you're hitting a ball. You're hitting an object that has no feeling. In fighting, you're punching people, human beings, and you have bad tests, that eliminates you. It's just too dangerous.

So I think when you start to think about the greatest of all times, for all the things and all the great victories, you know, you can't look at those, me personally being a guy, that those fights did really long-term damage to my career. It's hard for me to say this guy is the greatest of all time when every time we fought there was some sort of issue. Yeah. And that, that, that for me, it like, just kind of changes the conversation. So then it becomes DJ, Abib, and George St. Pierre. You know, and I think that's where you hit a baseball.

The baseball is, it has no feeling. You know, you're hitting it with a bat. And look at how he treat Barry Bonds and Mark McGuire and Demi Sosa. Look at, look at how they treat those guys in that sport, because that sport has, You know what's crazy about that, too? You know what's crazy about the whole, in baseball? They treat Barry Bonds in them like that, and it wasn't even illegal.

There was no rule that said that those guys couldn't take steroids. And look at how they treat them. Look at how they treat them. Those were having bad tests while we had Yusada, and people still want to place him at the top of the all-time greatest place. But that's crazy. It wasn't even illegal in baseball back in the late 90s, and those guys were hitting home runs,

freaking 50 yards longer than they ever had, you know? So it's just a different, it's a different sport, obviously, but it just seems like the possibilities of damage is just so much more severe in mixed martial arts. And for anyone, I mean, even Anderson, right? Anderson was the man, bad test. I don't care if it's her bad, bad, freaking, what's that blue pill called?

whatever they were saying you were taking Yeah, yeah, yeah. Viagra. It's a bad generic, Viagra. It does not matter. It's a bad test. And bad test in the combat sport where you're punching people

just not right, then eliminates you. Yeah. Yeah, I think we've always talked about the asteris, you know, gets put next to their name because of that because, you know, again, you know, some guys will say,

well, I don't care if it did it, I'll still fight him, that kind of thing. But the end of the day, there's no way it doesn't taint your legacy in some way. I mean, listen, he's still, to this day, he'll never not answer those questions. Anderson, the same way.

He'll never not answer those questions. Now, once it happens, it's kind of like that dark cloud that hangs over you no matter what you do. Absolutely. And it sucks, too, because they're so immensely talented. Like, so talented. That I don't think any of those guys

ever need to do anything wrong. And just, like, would have been clean. You know, if you're, like, Habib's clean. Like, nobody has heard or suggested or thought that he's done anything negatively. outside of missing weight when he was on his way up. Like those are the things that he is going to have to deal with in terms of negatively. Everything else, Demetri Johnson.

Demetri Johnson is actually completely clean. No miss weights. No failed tests. He's just clean. And those are the types of guys that you look at and say, this guy is the greatest fighter of all time. Yeah. And I know it doesn't play into the greatest all-time fighter debate,

but I think what Habib and guys like Demetri, have done to separate themselves even further in terms of the overall aura of the sport, kind of like George St. Pierre, as they did it the right way, they're almost role models in a way. And I'm not saying they have to play that role for kids or whatever, but I mean, you look at George St. Pierre, you know, the guy did it the right way. Habib did it the right way. Like, that matters in certain conversations, right? And yeah, well, in terms of how you're remembered, you know, because all those, like,

those fights and stuff, they're great. They were remembered for them. but your overall contribution to the sport also plays a part. It will not play a part in who's the greatest fighter of all time. But you don't want to be limited to just your actions inside the oxygen line. Yeah, absolutely. D.C., before I get you out here, I want to ask you, obviously, as a guy who's been very, very busy since your own retirement,

obviously doing the commentary thing, you got your podcast, you're doing some stuff with EA Sports. What else you have on the – we talked about this a long time ago, and I know you mentioned it to me, the possibility doing some crossover work with WWE. Where's that at? What's next for D.C.? What do you get going on?

Well, I had some things that I was dealing with first. When I get back home, I can start to talk to the people that work for me to start seeing how we're going to move forward. You know, we've got some very unique opportunities outside of mixed martial arts on the table right now. And I'm excited to get back to them and figure out how we move forward. Yeah. Yeah. Is it fun, though, knowing that, as you said, one of the. the reasons why, and you told me this multiple times with retirement, that you'd be able to

walk away, is you have other things going on. Obviously, your wrestling program, your kids got a lot of athletics, things like that, but in terms of your actual career, commentary gigs, I mean, you got a lot of other things. We've got a lot of irons in the fire right now. Absolutely. And it's not going to stop. I'm going to continue to do that. I'm going to continue to just throw things against the wall and fill stuff something sticks. I want the world to just get a chance to try to know me and let's see what they think, you know, see if I can entertain the world. That's what I want to do.

Yeah, absolutely. I hope I hear you on the wrestling call one day. I think that'd be a lot of fun. I don't know if it's WW, AEW, whatever it is. I would love to hear a DC call on a pro wrestling match. Oh, that would be fantastic, Mr. Damon. It would be something that we've always talked about. That's like there's a lot of dreams in your career.

That's got to be one of the dreams to eventually call a big wrestling match. There's been so many things that I've thought about. and then when this whole WWE thing started to come into becoming a real opportunity, it was like I was a kid again and didn't know or think how I was able to manage and be able to be okay doing it because I'm just so excited about it. Yeah, absolutely. Well, D.C., thank you as always for taking the time. Have a good trip at home, obviously, down Louisiana, get some good food down there.

I appreciate you doing this, and I'm sure we will catch up again soon. All right, Damon. Thank you, brother. All right, talk to you soon. Bye-bye. You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network.