MMA Fighting - Emergency Reaction: Bellator Is Dead, Long Live Bellator | PFL Acquisition FINALLY Official

Episode Date: November 21, 2023

Bellator as we know it is dead. MMA Fighting's Shaun Al-Shatti, Jed Meshew, and Damon Martin react to another crazy day in MMA following PFL's long-awaited acquisition of Bellator and PFL chairman Donn Davis' interview on The MMA Hour about the vision of PFL/Bellator moving forward. Follow Shaun Al-Shatti: @ShaunAlShatti Follow Jed Meshew: @JedKMeshew Follow Damon Martin: @DamonMartin Subscribe to MMA Fighting Check out our full video catalog Like MMA Fighting on Facebook Follow on Twitter Read More: http://www.mmafighting.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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The Downloaded 2, Ghosts in the Machine. Available now, only from Audible. Support for this show comes from the Audible original, The Downloaded 2. Ghosts in the Machine. The Earth only has a few days left. Rosco Cudullian and the rest of the Phoenix colony have to re-upload their minds into the quantum computer, but a new threat has arisen that could destroy their stored consciousness forever. Listen to Oscar winner Brendan Fraser reprised his role as Rosco Cudulian in this follow-up to the Audible Original Blockbuster, The Downloaded.

It's a thought-provoking sci-fi journey where identity, memory, and morality collide. Robert J. Sawyer does it again with this much-anticipated sequel that leaves you asking, what are you willing to lose to save the ones you love? The downloaded two, Ghosts in the Machine. Available now, only from Audible. Podcast Network. It finally happened. It is Monday, November 20th, 2000, 23.

And y'all, the era of Bellator, at least as we know it, is finally dead. announced Monday morning the long-awaited acquisition of Bellator by the PFL is finally official. This is Seismic News here. My name is Sean Shottie. I've got my guys, Jed Mishu, Damon Martin here to react to it. And here just a quick rundown of what we know following the announcement today. And also PFL founder Don Davis's interview on the MMA hour here on MMA fighting, which you should certainly go listen to if you haven't already.

The deal itself was finalized on Saturday. Bellator, at least for now, will remain a somewhat separate. brand, it seems like, reimagined and revitalized is the terminology being thrown around right now by PFL executives. It appears this was a stock deal, no cash involved, according to Davis. All 210 Bellator fighters are now under the PFL umbrella. Belator championship series will be the new or international championship series. Something to that effect will be the new form of Belator. It's going to be under eight one-off events over the course of 2024. Two titles on the line, every card seemingly.

Bellator now essentially becomes one of five separate franchises in the PFL. There's the PFL League series, which is the season, as we know it, the PFL Pave View Supervite series, which has yet to unfold. That will be the Francis Ngano, Jake Pauls of the world.

BFL Challenger series, which is the Prospect Series, and then the international leagues, and now Bellator as well. A PFL versus Belator champion versus champion event is tentatively planned for February of next year. the PFL 24 season will still start in April as usual with Bellator International Champions Series beginning a month earlier in March.

And there will be other small differences as well. Bellator event fighters will be able to will not wear uniforms, the PFL fighters will. There's a lot to unpack here. So I'm going to jump right into it, gentlemen. Jed, your initial thoughts when all this went down and sort of what we've learned over the course of today. I mean the initial thoughts are the same as everyone's, right?

It is, oh, that finally happened. Like this has been the worst kept secret in like sports history. The only really interesting part of it was the last little bit there had been rumors that maybe something was holding up the deal. Maybe Bellator would in fact just sort of fold with the removal of Paramount and CBS from behind them. And that was interesting because it got the wheels turning on what like that would have led to this sort of big free agency for an enormous amount of people. and then this happened and makes sense. I'm a little bit more pleased than my sort of, and certainly some of the rumors were,

still have a ton of questions. I think like you mentioned, we're going to see some stuff play out. And I ultimately, as we'll get into this on this pod, I am fascinated to see how quickly all of this fails because I don't think that this, I don't think as currently constructed for them, this is going to work.

You know, they'll be able to pivot. I'm not saying that PFL's going to go under with this acquisition, but I think that the rosy path that they laid out, I think that everyone's going to figure out very quickly that, yeah, this just isn't, this isn't real. We can't have five brands under one brand when our one brand isn't even that good. Like the UFC can't run five brands like functionally.

So I'm not sure why people, BFL thinks they can, but, you know, we can get into that as we go here. Damon, Jed's not as high about sort of the vision that we're seeing right now. What was your initial thoughts when all this went down? Yeah, I think I'm with Jed on the confusion about it all because as you said, and as our colleague Ariel Hawani said on his show, this was the worst kept secret in MMA. We all knew it was coming.

It was just a matter of when or if it actually got closed. For my understanding, the last couple of weeks have just kind of been dot in the eyes and crossed the T's. This was an all-stock deal. So that should tell you Bellator's value, no offense. But the fact that Paramount's not getting a dime of cash should tell you that they weren't exactly, you know, a profitable company for Paramount, which is why they're shedding this off their books. Yeah, I think the biggest, there is like there is excitement because in my opinion, Belator's roster, is the best it's ever been right now. Like they have legitimately, in my opinion,

the number one band's weight in the world in patchy mix. They have arguably one of the best. I mean, you could argue Johnny Eblen is the number one middleweight over Sean Strickland. I'm not saying that's true or false. I'm saying you could make that argument. Usman Ramagamatov, I would say talent-wise is right on par with his teammate and close friend Islam Makachev.

I don't think he's there yet in terms of accomplishment, obviously. But I'm saying in terms of talent, I think he's right there. they have a lot of talent. So that part's exciting because truth be told, PFL doesn't have a ton of homegrown talent. Like they have a lot of guys they've signed from other promotions that have been able to make waves, but they've not really had a lot of homegrown talent

that have become viable products for them. So that part's good. Keeping Bellator alive as a brand makes zero sense to me. Like just folded into the organization and just get going. Like just do it. And you're trying to launch a pay-per-view series. You're trying to launch a paperview series. Okay, great.

And I understand the whole concept of PFL is the season format. Again, great. Do that with the Bellator fighters. You don't need, I don't know if it's a contractual obligation. I don't know if it's a something behind the scenes that we don't know about, that they have to do these eight events. And then I have no idea, but it's confusing and it makes no sense. So in that regard, I don't understand it, nor do I agree with it.

Because really what you're acquiring with Bellator's talent? That's it. You're acquiring talent. So make it that. Bring the talent to the PFL and move on. That's my opinion. Yeah, that's a correct opinion to have. Yeah, I think my biggest takeaway, obviously aside from just the initial stuff, right?

Because we've known this for so long that it's not a shock. It's not like something that you're taken aback by when it happens. You see it and say, okay, this finally happened. my biggest question really is why? Why are we moving forward in this sort of fashion? I think Don's interview with Ariel was revealing in one respect. It was kind of a throwaway line, but it stuck out to me where he had said, essentially commercial partners, certain commercial partners conflict that can't work with

PFL that are currently working with Bellator, meaning sponsors, broadcast, whatever you want to mean by that, broadcast rights, et cetera. so they're keeping the brand separate for now. But also during that same interview, it was almost a Freudian slip of him calling Bellator at one point, the PFL International Champion Series or at PFL International Series or something to that effect. And then he quickly corrected himself,

but it seemed like, okay, that makes a little more sense to me, if that's sort of the ultimate vision. But I agree with you guys, just in the interim, I mean, PFL is what it is. I don't know that there are massive PFL fans out there. There are certainly people who consume the product, but if you're not some sort of UFC monolith Goliath, who UFC themselves probably couldn't sustain five separate brands,

I don't know if PFL's the guy, the corporation that can sustain five separate brands like that. This all seems very confusing in a way that MMA fans just won't care about. But again, this is all very early. Damon, you mentioned the business side of this, and this is something that you are specializing, right? Like you've been in this industry for a long, long time, decades and decades,

good and keen when it comes to the business site. Were you surprised at the valuation and ultimately what Paramount got for this? This being an all-stock deal with no cash exchanged. We were here in numbers, figures like $500 million a couple months ago, $200 million, $300 million, even as recent a couple of weeks ago. Those are the most obvious fake numbers. The only numbers more fake than those were one championship's viewership numbers. Like, that's it.

Hundreds of millions of dollars for Bellator was on its face, ridiculous at the time. Damon, what's your reaction to ultimately what we got? Are you surprised? Like, is this a good sign, bad sign? I'm not surprised because, again, you know, obviously I talk to a lot of people and, you know, people who can't talk on the record. So these are stories that can't get out there. And, you know, I understand people are going to say, oh, you're saying this now after

the fact. Well, it's because these things are said in confidence and also because deals aren't done. but I knew a long time ago that the $500 million was $500 million mark was always ridiculous. There was never a conversation for that kind of money for ultimately what is a roster of fighters. That's what they're getting. It's not like they're buying a promotion that they're like,

man, we really need to pay for those Bellator Circle cages. Like we can't wait to do that. So that, so that in another self. Just quickly as an aside for the listeners, I can vouch for you. I mean, me and you have had these discussions off record just on our Slack channels within each other. Like, this is, this is, this was food from the beginning. As a separate aside, I can vouch for you because I have a functioning cerebral cortex.

And Bellator was never been worth $500 million. Yeah. That's no one would ever pay for that. So the all stock deal tells you one major thing about this. And I just, again, from the business side, this is what I want to share. The fact that Paramount was willing to basically, that's why. you're hearing the whole minority ownership. The minority ownership is what they got in exchange for giving Bellator over to the

PFL. What that tells you is what we should all know is that Bellator was never profitable. You do not sell a profitable organization or company to another company for nothing but stock if they are profitable. That does not happen, okay? When Lucasfilm sold to Disney for $4 billion or whatever was, and they also got a big chunk of cash. When Fox sold their assets to Disney for a bunch of cash and stock,

you don't just sell it for nothing. Stock is essentially nothing in a way because you're just getting ownership in a brand you already owned. So that should tell you everything you need to know about it. They were not making money. They were a red line of a company that's trying to get into the black. They're a publicly traded company, and Bellator did not make them money.

So what do you do with that? Well, you got to get it off to books. How do you get it off to books in a way that saves face a little bit? Well, you sell it, quote unquote. How do you sell it? You take stock from the other company, which is not a publicly traded company, but you take stock in that. So that's why Paramount remains a minority owner, quote unquote,

is because that's what they got for it. They got stock. They're basically saying, yeah, you're still going to have a little bit of ownership here, but that's really it. and maybe on the so-called PFL border directors, if they actually cared, you know, you could actually see someone from Belator sitting in on those meetings. But yeah, that tells you everything you need to know.

There is one mixed martial arts promotion on earth that makes revenue, that makes profit, and that's the UFC. One championship doesn't. When you see these stories about companies getting these huge influxes of investments, $100 million from Saudi Arabia, $500 million was a new round of financing that they mentioned. If you're getting that, if you're getting that kind of financing, you're not profitable.

You're not making money if you're still taking on investors, giving you that kind of money. Now, it's one thing to sign on for a partnership, like signing on for a partnership in Abu Dhabo with the UFC did, and they're getting a bunch of money in site fees and things like that. That's different. But to take that kind of investment, you're not turning a huge profit.

So, yeah, I'm not surprised because Bellator didn't make money to begin with. Jed, are you surprised as sort of how this played out, ultimately, considering everything we've heard about it? No, no, no, no. This was what I always anticipated for me, most of the reasons Damon said, like, one, let's be clear, I'm a minority owner of the UFC because I own stock and endeavor. I wouldn't be shocked if I have roughly the same level of ownership that Paramount now has in PFL because here's the thing, Jehine, you can't sell. a product that is being given away. And that was it. They had a window to maybe try and make a sale before Paramount pulled the rug and was like, we're done. At the end of this year, we are out of

combat sports entirely. So prior to people knowing that, maybe someone will buy it. But if I'm on the side of the road selling, you know, apples and I'm like, hey, you want to buy this apple for five bucks? And you're like, no, I don't. Well, I'm going to throw it away. Okay. I'm not going to then buy it for $3 because you just told me, I'm going to throw it away. I currently have a surplus of quarterbacks on my fantasy football roster, and I can't get rid of them because everyone knows that I'm about to have to drop one to pick up other players, so why are they going to trade me real assets for nothing?

So they got nothing for this, and that was always going to happen, because they didn't sell last year when the rumors had started. They waited for whatever reason they did, and now they got penny. on the dollar if they even got pennies and here we are you know this was the only way it could go because bellator thought they were more than they were i guess i want to pivot because the bellator side of this is so very bellator right like this we have seen the slow long death of this and it has been one of the more painful slow long deaths in the history of these sort of acquisitions and you can go through and there there's a decent list of them at this point right the ufc acquiring

the UFC acquiring WEC, Strike Force. Also back at the day, Ariel mentions today of Strike Force acquiring Elite X,C, et cetera, et cetera. You can go on down the line, but those are sort of the big ones. There is two versions of this. There is the WEC version where things go out grand spectacular. It is sort of celebrated. It's this momentous thing. And it feels big.

It feels important. And it feels like a quality death. It feels like it was a proper death. And then there is the other side of this. There's the strike force. side of this, or even the pride side of this, where it's this long, slow decline where we know what's happening and it's just kind of in front of our face and it's just painful for everyone involved. And this one was certainly the other side of it, right? Like, this was the exact

same thing as Strikeforce more or less. This is Daniel Cormey versus Dionne staring, except we weren't getting the fighters sort of picked off. Like Bellator still had control over their fighters for the most part in these final events. But every other aspect to it, it, just felt like this was a dead train moving forward. And so now we've reached this place. So my question to you, Damon, is we've done this before. You and I in particular have been in this industry long enough to see these sort of seismic changes in the industry and what happens, sort of the collective aftermath of

all everyone picking up the pieces and moving forward. Is this a good thing today what happened for MMA? Is it a good thing for fans? Is it a good thing for fighters, most importantly? Is this a good day for the industry or is it a bad one? I would say it's it's twofold it's not an easy answer to give you

it's good in one way it is good for fans because we're going to get better fights you know we have the prospect of having better fights now I'm not saying the PFL has the deepest roster in the world but there are still some fun matchups that can be made and also because Belator or should be PFL didn't promote some of the divisions that PFL had they now get to fill out their roster.

Like they doesn't have a middleweight division. They didn't have a bantamweight division. Guess what? Vellator's bantamweight division, I would argue, is nearly on par with the UFC. They have an incredible bantamweight division. P.F. just gets to fold that in now. And obviously, we know their TV deal is coming up. You know, maybe they resell with DSPN, maybe they go to Amazon Prime.

Maybe they go to Apple. Maybe they go to Netflix. Netflix is getting in the live sports space. Maybe that's that. And so that in of itself could be great for fame. The downside is the fighters because the fighters now lost an option when they go into free agency, and that's bad. Two years ago, when Kayla Harrison became a free agent and she was the biggest name available

at the time, she received offers from the PFL for Bellator and from the UFC, and she ultimately resigned with the PFL for about a million dollars a fight. That's how much they were paying Kayla Harrison per fight, a million dollars per fight. Why do you think they were able to offer? why do you think they had to offer that money? It was because she had other offers. She had Bellator say, hey, we want to make you the, we want to make Chris Cyborg fight.

Yeah, the UFC said, man, maybe we can make the Amanda Nunes fight. So the PFL had to up the ante. That goes away a little bit now. I mean, you now have two options. And Don Davis said it today on Ariel Show, on the MMA hour. He said, you know, we're bringing over 210 fighters from the Belator roster. We're keeping everybody. That sounds great, right?

That's awesome, right? everyone's still got a job. But he also said, that's going to get called. Like, not everyone's going to stick around. Like, not everyone's going to fit into the PFL culture. Not everyone's going to fit under our shows. So right now, 210, 210 fighters, like, great, I got a job. Ask that same question in July of next year and see how many of those 200,

210 fighters still have a job. When Francis Inganu became a free agent, he was, everybody was trying to get a piece of Francis and Ghanai pipes up to the UFC. Everybody was out there trying to give, for his services. That's no longer an option. So that's the problem. Like fighters who are free agents now

no longer have that option. And let's just say mid-level fighters, guys who are not, Johnny Eblen or Patchy Mix, guys who are viable top five guys, they're really going to be slimmed down because if you're the PFL and you have 600 fighters under your roster now,

or 500, whatever the number is, and a mid-level guy comes to free agent and you're like, you know what? We already have 500 guys. We don't really need you. So talk to one. championship, talk to LFA, maybe you get back to the regional scene.

And that's a bad thing. That's bad for the sport. That's bad for the fighters. Jed, I mean, on aerial show today, Don is out here stating unequivocally that this is a good thing for the sport, that ultimately everything that this will become. And again, there's a grand vision being laid out before us of being the co-leader. They keep saying the co-industry leader, the one B to the UFC's 1A. do you agree with this vision that we're seeing put forward?

Is this a good thing for fighters? No. One, respect Don Davis for speaking his truth, but man, his truth is just consistently insane. And you got to stop putting him in front of a mic. Like, you just do. Like, you don't let him tweet out graphics. The graphic to announce this, we now have 30% of the top 25 fighters in the world just like the UFC. That's clearly insane.

And when you do stuff like that, because it is so on its face lunatic maneuver, no one is like, oh, I wonder if that's true. They're all like, oh, you're just lying right now. Because one, to say that you in the UFC of the same number of top level fighters is pretty obviously ridiculous. And also you're saying that 40% of the top 25 fighters per weight class are just elsewhere. They're just in another non-deskre. Like, what are you talking about, man?

Just be real. And being real doesn't mean comparing yourself to the UFC because you're not. And you're probably never going to get there, but the time is not now. You're not punching up in wait. I, everything Damon said in this immediate term,

I think is very, very true. Like, fighters have lost one more avenue for them. Maybe we'll get some better fights out of this. Like we should ostensibly get some more entertaining fights as fans. But I also have huge questions. questions about how the logistics of PFL's 2024 functionally with an influx of 200 fighters. Like, how is that going to span out? How is that going to work in the schema of how they operate currently?

Because I got 100 questions about what this means for everything. How are the seasons going to shape out? What, or, you know, are we still doing two fights and then we're into the playoffs? Because that's real dumb. But like all of that's there. My biggest issue, and this is real, real future vision, Jed here, so, you know, you don't have to be on this. This is probably bad thing. It's a lot of this feels like we're going to end up where we were originally, which is there's a promotion that maybe one person in it is trying to claim that it's a valid number two when it's very obviously not.

maybe they at least have a more honest understanding of this. Like Scott Coker, I think Bellator did a lot of really, really good things. They screwed up in some major ways and one fundamental way. But one of the best things Scott Coker did is he never compared himself to the UFC. You never like this isn't what we're trying. You know, we are our own thing. We're running our own race and this is how it's going to be. BFL does not appear to be doing that or at least Don Davis sure is hell isn't.

And that's just not going to work out for them in that, frame. And my biggest issue with this is that everything else that is bundled in here feels like we are eventually on a path where PFL is going to turn into Bellator, i.e., they're just playing the same game the UFC is, but worse. Because that is the fundamental flaw of Bellator from its inception, really. When it used to do the seasons and the tournaments, that was different. It stood apart from the UFC. And then they got rid of that and they moved towards a pretty generic fight organization thing, and then they added Grand Prix for a little bit of flavor in the end years.

But 98% of that promotion was just, hey, you like the UFC? What if we had a tenth of the fighters? What if our fighters just simply weren't as good? Are you interested in that? And there's a market for it, but it's not a huge one. I truly don't know if PFL believes in the season format, because all this other shit that there's, talking about isn't the season format.

Like, yeah, we're going to run the season format and we're going to run these other four things. Homie, you believe in it or you don't. Like, if you believe that the season is what sets you apart and that this is a different way to approach MMA, a league-based thing, you need to be putting your chips behind that, not we're going to have this and we're going to have the Superfight series and we're going to have international. We're like, no, just do the thing.

Work your A game and play it all the way out down the line and see if you can gain traction with it because I think it is their best bet to create a product that is distinguished from the UFC. But the way this is sounding, they're going to have the tournaments and then once you win the tournaments, then you get to go into the regular organization, which is bad UFC. It's not a long-term business. And eventually, Saudi money runs up. Not every tech startup can infinitely get angel investors to put money in.

and when the money well dries up, then you collapse. And I don't know where they're going to go. And that's a three-year problem. You know, it seems like maybe one other major MMA promotion is about to be having that exact same problem coming up. But like, PFL just kind of put itself down this road. And they haven't said anything that makes me feel like,

oh, they have a plan here that's good. Like it's it, I'm very down on this. Is what I'm trying to say. Can I throw out one other things you can real quick, just to what to Jed's point? because he's absolutely right. I want to read you a quote real quick here,

just to make you understand, like, where this goes. Because Mark Shapiro, the president of TKO Group Holdings, which is the company that, you know, ostensibly owns the UFC with WWE, he was asked about the Saudi Arabia investment in PFL a couple weeks ago during an earnings call. And his response should tell you everything you need to know about the PFL and Bellator being a threat to the UFC.

He said, not only do we have over 600 fighters, we have the Premier fighters. Ultimately, you're trying to get to the UFC, which is akin to the XFL, trying to ultimately get their players into the NFL. That's what we are. Those, meaning the PFL and Belator, are pipeline and feeder leagues,

or excuse me, pipeline and feeder properties. That tells you everything you need to know about the UFC and what they think of the PFL and Belator. So when Don Davis says, it's not 1A and 1B, that's laughable. Okay? I'm not defending. the UFC's business practices, but the UFC is making huge revenues.

They are making huge. They're the only MMA promotion. They're the only profitable company. They're the only profitable. They're the only profitable. Do you really think they care about this at all? They do not. They do not care.

Actually, if anything, I'd say they probably root for it because now when fighters become free agents are like, hold on now, you got us or you got PFL, which one you're going to sign with? He just made their jobs easier. So I don't think this whole one A, one B thing. is laughable. It's just, I, PFL could be number two, but what, what Jed said is 100,

you do not, do not try to challenge, you're not going to win that fight. It is not a fight you're going to win. It is not going to happen. So stop trying to pick that fight. And I will say, I think that's one thing, like there were not a lot of surprises today, right? Because there's been so much spoken about this, written about this,

rumored about this over so many months. Not a lot that we heard today was surprising. The one thing that surprised me. me more than anything else, aside from the fact that this whole weird, we're going to keep five different brands going, is how immediately adversarial this seemed from the PFL, immediately from the moment it was announced, it was framed as such, not that like, hey, we just became so much better. It was, hey, we just became the UFC light. Like, we just became the UFC essentially. Like, we are, we are now on par with this. Every way in which this was presented to us was sort of

framed that way. And I want to read you this quote from Don Davis on today's show. Quote, everybody knows Dana well enough to know that he only dismisses things that worry him or else he just doesn't comment. He didn't comment on the PFL for four years because he wasn't worried. He's commented on the PFL a lot the last six months. He's worried. That is, again, I do not understand why that's the move right now to frame this as such an adversarial thing. But I throw it to you guys, what's your response to hearing that? And do you think that in five years, like if we go down the line five years from now, will we remember today as the beginning of a new one B to 1A?

Is this the biggest UFC competitor since Pride? Or are we just repeating history? There is, I mean, if you gave me the option, is this that situation you just outlined? or is the PFL folded in five years? I am, it's the PFL is not even existing in five years. And it's not close. Like it's not even, I think that the most likely scenario is that the BFL doesn't exist in five years.

I don't think there's even a 1% chance that this is the start of the day that the, that the UFC was brought to its knees or whatever. if the and I'll and straight up if that happens if somehow this is the one timeline it is not because the pfl exists the pfl was here to take advantage of the upcoming lawsuit like when that goes to court that might be the thing that cripples the ufc in a really tangible way will also really affect the pfl but whatever um and they are just there to say they are in an advantageous position which is you know, that's half of success, right? Right place, right time, you know, you create your own luck through hard work.

But it won't be because they built a thing to challenge the UFC as it exists today because it will not matter. If the anti-trust suit ends up getting thrown out or they side with the UFC, PFL is done in like seven years because money does not grow on trees. You cannot burn cash infinitely and they don't turn a profit. and this isn't going to help them turn a profit the way they are planning to do it. And let's not forget also when Don says Dana suddenly starts talking about the BFL. I'm not here to defend Dana White, but Dana White doesn't volunteer to talk about the BFL.

People ask him about the BFL and he responds. Like when they asked him about buying Bellet or what did he say? He laughed. He laughed and he's like, what are you buying? That's the dumbest thing. He mocked it. He's not saying it because he thinks it's a threat. He's because he's being honest.

He's like, what are you buying? What are, it turns out exactly what Dana said was right. They're not buying anything because they didn't buy it. They basically got a handed and said, here's this thing. Go. Go with God. Be with as you may. The UFC is not, the UFC is not sweat.

And like the UFC pride comparison, the only reason that even mattered is because at the time, pride had a huge foothold in Japan and the UFC was still growing. That was before the UFC really, like the UFC was basically struggling to get on Spike TV at the time. That's in 2006, 2005. UFC in 2023 is not getting touched, okay? They're not. I mean, again, all this, all this does nothing to hurt the UFC.

And the idea that this is somehow going to turn into a burgeoning competitor for the UFC is laughable. It's just not going to happen. Now, I hope for the sake of the sport, PFL finds great success. And they do eventually turn into a profitable company. I really do. I root for that. I root for every company to do that.

But come on. Like this is, it's hilarious that you can, you can't frame it like that and actually imagine it's going to happen. The UFC is a juggernaut. And all you can hope is you can get out of the way and they don't smash you along the way. What Mark Shapiro said is not incorrect. You know,

the XFL and USFL launched a league, trying to promote and try to become the other football league. They're doing everything different. They're running jobs like schedules as the NFL. They're working in comparison with the NFL. They're doing everything they can. to be an alternative to the NFL. What happened?

A year later, they merged because they can't survive because the NFL is a juggernaut that cannot be overtaken. That's the reality. Like it or not, the UFC is not going anywhere and PFL should just settle into being number two and stop this whole like poking the bear thing. Because the last thing you want to do is to have them come down and swipe at you. Well, let's let's sit two last quick things because I think there's still a lot of questions that we're going to have over the next six months,

over the next several weeks even, just like there's still a lot. Is Don Davis involved? Can they just, we're just figuring out all of this on the fly. I got a lot of questions. But I would like to look back, look forward and look back, right?

Just to look forward. What fights now are you most interested in? Because this is a massive roster, right? Like, I think one thing can be fairly said, that this is the best roster that's not the UFC roster since strike force easily and definitely since that sort of era, right? Like, we have not seen this over the last decade, really, a roster of this quality.

So now that this is a thing, are there fights that you're looking forward to? What are you sort of eyeing? Dude, there's one. That's the joke of this whole thing. Like, there's, PFL is not a, like, it's not a real product. They run a, they are a company that is doing a specific thing. You don't tune into PFL because you love their roster of fighters. they got one, two, I guess, with Francis now,

that you're going to tune in for, and she just lost by them. The only fight that matters from this is Kayla Harrison versus Chris Cyborg. Everything else is, yeah, I want to see the good Bellator fighters fight the other good Bellator fighters because they don't have anybody I care, watch them fight.

Like, I'm never going to be excited to watch Sadabu C fight somebody. I'm going to turn this to you, Shaheen, I'm going to switch this around because there's one that, like, I mentioned the one fight that we care about. I'm more interested in what happens to Bellator champions right now because, like, unfortunately if you also have Amosov, he just lost his belt to Jason Jackson. Actually, might be like the best thing that ever happened because I don't think they're going to let Jason Jackson go into their welterweight tournament and win a million dollars next year.

But now that he's not champion, Amosov can. And he will because, like, who's going to be? going to beat him. It's Saddam Hussein going to beat him to stop him from winning a million dollars? Have we just created a scenario where being a Bellator champion is way worse than not being won? Is Logan Storley the secret winner for this merger right now? Because he gets to fight for a million dollars while Jason Jackson, who achieved his lifelong ambition and pulled off an incredible upset, is now going to have to fight Magamad, Magamad Karamov for $300,000 in a pay-per-view that sells to four people?

What, like, those are what I want to know. Those are the questions I have here. So for me, I mean, I'm with Jed. I mean, there's not really a lot of compelling matchups. I mean, there's some, I mean, there's some potentially fun fights. But yeah, I mean, what's funny is the fighters who have the best, the best market ability of being, like, viable options to, like, become stars or become, like, guys you could say, man, this is a guy who could rival somebody in the UFC.

are the guys who are in two divisions that don't exist in PFL. Johnny Eblin and Patchy Mix, I would argue, are the two best guys on the entire Bellator roster. And I would say Vadim Nemcoff's up there as well, of course. But, yeah, like, you've got, you've basically got Johnny Eblen and Patchy Mix as guys who could rival the UFC, and there's no division for them to fight other guys in the PFL. And then Vadeem Nimcoff, I'm sorry, Josh Silvera and Mpikasangenei.

I don't see either one of you as being like a super compelling matchup for David, Dean Mimkov, Dennis Goldsoff and Hina Ferreira, I think you may have just lost on a $2 million payday because Ryan Bader may be the only viable option by Franciccanu. I mean, it's just, yeah, it's bad. There's not. There's just not. I mean, again, what Jed says is true. The fight that we want to see is probably Kayla Harrison against Chris Cyborg.

And even then, like, what do you, poor Larissa Pacheco. What do you do with her? Like, she actually has a winner for Kayla Harrison, and she's not even in the conversation. I mean, Pacheco versus Cyborg certainly is on the table now, right? Like, this is not a one-off thing. Like, that feels like something, I would be interested in that. You mentioned Bader versus Inganu. I'm sure Ryan Bader right now is very happy that he's probably about to get a $2 million

payday to fight Francis Inganu, if that's on the table. I would be interested in that. Why would you be interested in that? Why would you be interested in that? Well, you know. Come on. Come on. It's Ryan Bader.

You just want to see Ryan Bader get hurt? Is that why you're interested in it? You said it, not me. I'm saying I saw a much better version of Ryan Bader lose to a smaller version of Francis and Ghanu many, many years ago. I strongly doubt anything different happens again. I'm just saying, AJ McKee's out there.

You could match him up against the Anthony Pettises or whoever you want to match him up. I don't know if Anthony is still even in the PFL. But there are names out there outside of the champions. Yeah. They're great fights amongst Bellator fighters. Because they had the goals. ones. They had all the good ones.

The Champions card also, I will say, is going to be fun. It's going to be really fun. We saw that, we've seen this before. We've seen versions of this with Strike Force. We've seen versions of this with Pride. When they come to the UFC, we have these sort of unification bouts. Those are always really fun. So I am not sad about that.

No. And so that's legit. Like that's, I've been trying to figure out why they would keep Bellator alive. I honestly think that there has to be like, to your point previously, there has to be some like real contractual stuff working here. because we have just historically seen when companies have tried to do this, they eventually come to the realization that, oh, yeah, it's really dumb to, you know, bifurcate our resources

and everything should just fall under the same umbrella because we're all in the same boat. We all need to be row in the same direction. We saw that with the UFC. Remember when the UFC was going to run pride separately? And I was like, that's really dumb. We'll just bring pride fighters in. I think PFL is going to eventually do this.

But I do think doing a us versus, them card is like a pretty cool idea but for the fact that the bellets for champions are going to run them like it's going to be a clean sweep on that's fine right but it's what it's fine it's fine ultimately because now they're all in this under the same banner but like that's that's it's it the rest of this just i want them to have a direction that's not we have five properties and we're going to do, we're going to juggle five balls. You, you really should just be focused on one because staying, staying alive, like for any flack in any issues you have with Bellator, it's a promotion that stayed alive for 10 years, which is impossible. Like, it's so hard to keep a promotion alive

for as long as Belator was. And PFL really should be focused on that as opposed to conquering the globe or whatever their current plans are. Well, last thing on this. and then we'll get out of here because there's going to be so much more spoken about this, discussed over the next weeks, months on all of our various shows, but just instant reaction. And your instant thoughts, now that this is finally done, Damon.

You've seen a lot of promotions come and go over the course of your time in the sport. You've seen a lot of promotions make waves, be big splashes and then die, very sudden deaths, and you've also seen, like I said, a lot of long, slow, painful deaths more akin to what this was.

But not a lot of shows ultimately reach 300 events, right? Like, not a lot of shows have the stay in power that Bellator, through its many iterations, whether it was Bjorn Radney, Scott Coker, the circus era of Scott Coker, where we were getting Ken Shamrock versus Kimbo and all of this other stuff.

Throughout all of these eras, not a lot of promotions make it as long as Belator did. So I guess for you, like, when you think back 10 years from now, in the same way that now we think back and we think fondly of Strike Force, we think fondly of WEC, we think fondly of pride, how will you remember what we just watched with bellator how will you remember the bellator

experience what will in your mind the legacy of whatever this non- frankenstein monster of belator moving forward will be whatever we just watched over the last decade or so Mexico that's not really my thoughts uh i mean listen what i will say about bellator is is if there's one thing we can say about bellator is they eventually became a really really good they really had a they had a really good for talent in the long run. They did have to kind of go through the freak show fights and things like there to get there, but they really did. I mean,

they discovered Michael Chandler. They discovered the Pitbull Brothers. They signed Aaron Pico. They had the foresight to bet on wrestlers coming out of college and guys like, you know, Ed Ruth, who didn't, you know, turn out to be a champion right away, but they had the foresight to go out and get him.

Aaron Pico, as I mentioned. Obviously, Jordan Oliver just recently joined there. Bryce Meredith, I'm shocked, honestly, that they didn't go after Bo Nickel the way that worked out. So, yeah, they had a great eye for talent. Just unfortunately, they just didn't have the ability to promote it for a long term. Jed, what about you? Honestly, it's actually pretty similar to Damon's thoughts, maybe even a little more so,

because to me, the first thing I always thought, and I sort of alluded to this earlier, I thought Bellator was just a really good promotion, who I was really really, hard on for a lot of great reasons like I all of their mistakes were really bad and in in really substantial ways that I think kept them from maybe realizing more success but the same time 15 years as an MMA promotion is incredibly long like there there are a handful of promotions that can ever you know say that they have done that it's it's it's basically the UFC and then shoot-o like that's it like that's that's what we're working with for that time frame and it's the way they

did it was to damon's point they were really good at talent development acquisition um they invested heavily in growing young talent which is something that i seriously hope the pfl recognizes was a strength for bellator because bell we we are seeing it now in this era of bellator we with the AJ McKees and Aaron Picos and these guys who they invested in early, and not every one of those is gonna hit, but you get there. That was something that Scott Coker was really early in on

and had going for them. I think that's really good. I think they were always, like I said, really smart about understanding their role in the ecosystem and not getting out over their skis or getting too big for their britches. They didn't ever leverage themselves to the hilt to try and do something that couldn't be done.

They took mostly really smart gamble, and some of those ended up, you know, just being, hey, we're playing this, this playbook is a little overwrought. We need to be developing something new. But again, ultimately led them to be a viable company for 15 years. And particularly this is just outside of just the world of MMA. Dude, if you put together a company that lasts for 15 years, that's a fucking success, man.

Like, no, you didn't get rich. But like a lot of people paid their, their bills and kept their lives going in meaningful, tangible ways for 15 years. And that should be celebrated because, like I said, I think there's a real solid chance to be the NFL doesn't pull that off because they're just robbing the future to buy something now. And I don't know how long that can last. And so I hope, you know, I saw that Don Davis said that, you know, the Bellator people are invited to stay and find roles within them. I hope some of them do. I hope maybe they can pair back the PFL's ambition because I think that they are

overly ambitious for sort of where they are at now. And personally, I'll just look back on Bellator and be like, hey, you did a lot of dumb things, but some of the stuff you did was really fun. Some of it was really great. Michael Chandler, Eddie Alvarez fights were really great. And of course, the best thing that's maybe ever happened in the sport, Eric Prendel Tiago Santos. I mean, now you're just speaking my language. Yeah, it's tough, man. I've always, it's tough for me because I feel like I've always had a conflicted relationship with Bellator, or maybe similar akin to yours, Jed, where I'll be honest.

I don't know that I do know, actually. This will not be something that I look back on similar in the way that I look back on a WEC or a Strike Force or a Pride. No, it's not Pride or WR. you see and ain't that. I look back on those so intimately fondly, right? Like it is, those were such great times and there were very few, even throughout the run of it,

I never really felt like they were lacking. Like I always enjoyed what they brought to the space. Whereas with Bellator, there was always something that I could never get over, whether it was, the name was dumb, like the name doesn't tell you anything. No one knows what the name meant. The Circle Cage was always just a terror.

terrible television product and in-person product. It caused, it was not conducive to better fights because it would create so much space within the cage and the lack of angles and things like that. But yet through it all, and also the production elements, right, like it was a darker production. Yeah, it's just, it was a tough watch sometimes. And I think it's fair to admit that.

But also, we would feel this way because we would want better for it, right? Like, we were never wanting. Because you could see it. You could see the potential. see what they could be. Does they have the second best roster in the sport? For a long time.

Once Strike Force died, Bellator at that moment had the second best roster in the sport. And they have up until this very day. And that to me is incredible. And over the course of so many different iterations of this, as I said, from Bjorn Rebney and what he brought to this. And I remember those early days.

You have John Anick on the mic. If Roger Huerta in there just kind of having a second life an unexpected second life. Eddie Alvarez, the underground king, finally finds like a real home to plant his flag in and a real place where people begin to recognize them outside of the hardcore as one of the best in the damn world. And then you get the weirdness with the contracts

and things like that. It ultimately leads to Bjorn leaving because that thing became such a PR nightmare. They go all in on war machine, which was always, I never really understood this to that. You're just asking for trouble with that. Tough scenes, tough scenes. But then even when Scott came in it, I didn't age well.

Didn't age well. But even when Scott came in, right? And there was this ambitious rebranding of all of this. I so badly wish they would have changed the name. But aside from that, all of it, right, the dynamite brand, trying to lean into kickboxing a little bit, just trying different stuff and also creating. I remember what he would always say,

the tent pole events where it was these circus fights, these dumb spectacles. But I love dumb spectacles. And I still, we talk about it on various shows when it comes up. My fondest moment covering on the road when I used to like really cover on the road religiously and I was on the road every single week, every single month, my fondest memory is the very dumb Kimbo versus Dada 5,000 fight week because it was just so stupid. Hoise Gracie, Ken Shamrocked is well in that. And it was so much fun. It was just dumb, delirious fun. And I have such

great memories from that time period. And that was Bellator maybe finding itself. That was Bellator probably pulling in the biggest numbers that Belator ultimately ever did and finding the little things that worked and little things that didn't, but they were just trying stuff. And then ultimately, we ended up where we ended up with where for the past several years, that sort of ambition wasn't there anymore, right? They were very content just doing the day in, day out, paint by numbers, hey, we're just going to be a lesser UFC type of thing. And I guess that's maybe the fate of a lot of these organizations. And maybe that was disappointing to sort of reach that place with this place that, again, once had such grand ambitions.

But what you guys have said is ultimately right, right? Like you can put Bellator up there with anybody in terms of talent acquisition and talent development. And they had a real eye who are spotting these guys early and getting in on people on the ground floor and ultimately making, I wouldn't say stars, but making really significant figures within the sport that would then go on to become, you know, bigger elsewhere. right, Michael Chandler, Eddie Alvarez. Ben Ascran, all of these different people.

I don't know, man. Like I said, I feel like I'm still figuring out where I sit with this. And it won't be a WEC-esque, pride-esque type of legacy for me in my mind. But there were a lot of good moments with Bellator, man. There were a lot of really good moments of a lot of really incredible fights and performances. Michael Chandler, Eddie Alvarez, is always going to be the one that jumps to mind. but even like Toby Amata hitting Jorge Mazvedol with the submission of all time, right?

The inverted triangle, just all of it. It's an awkward time, I'd say right now in the MMA space, to have someone this prominent who's been in our lives for so long, leaving us in such a weird way. I'll miss them, though. I will say. I will miss them. Yeah, that's just you feel in nostalgia right now.

You're not going to miss them. They don't deserve to be men. And again, I think they did a lot of really good things, and we can recognize that on this. They're the day we're eulogizing them functionally. But when you were talking, something really struck out to me. We're like, yeah, this isn't going to hit me the same way Pride or WEC did. You know what Pride and WC had in common? They got bought by the biggest player in the game because what they were offering was real and something that people valued.

That is why they were purchased. and Bellator did not. Belator got technically bought, but mostly just sort of mercy shoved over here to these other people who wanted it. It's because whatever it was, and I think there are a lot of explanations, they didn't,

they had potential that was never realized. And that's why we felt the way we did and that's why we still feel the way we didn't. Because I'll tell you what, I watched, I was there for WBC, they got every bit of juice out of WBC that could be gotten out of it. They maximized what they could with what they had. And you can't say, and that's why Bellator is where it is here,

because also to your point, I mean, outside of they were clearly in a rut the last couple of years, just going by the thing, at no point in the history of this sport except for peak pride has an organization had more talent than Bellator did outside of the UFC. because right now their fighters, their crop of fighters is the best it's ever been, which makes it the best in history non-UFC division, basically. Like, we're talking about three different people that are like credibly the best in their weight class and a school, like a whole bantam weight division that is on par with the UFC. It's like they had all this talent and the best that they could manifest with this talent.

Getting the talent's impressive. The best they could do with having all that talent is making us. be like, huh, that's a little sad, but I mostly don't care that this organization is falling apart.

Like, that's you screwing up promotionally. Like, you don't deserve our sadness if you can't make us sadder that you failed in this way, you know?

That's fair. I think that's fair. I hate to reiterate it, but I just don't understand the vision moving forward, keeping this separate brains. It has to, I think the aspect of the advertisers

and different competing sponsors and things like that has to be such a major part. There's a good poll from you. It is so nonsensical otherwise, this vision that we have been laid out. I mean, I'm curious to see it in action, but it just feels very confusing, and I don't know that MMA fans will be into it or follow it

outside of the obvious things that are sellable, right? The champion versus champion cards and the fights that we know that we want, the cyborg versus Kailas and things like that. But we'll see, man. I think this is obviously a time of great curiosity, time of great mystery within the space. Whatever this is going to look like at this time next year

is probably going to be vastly different than I would imagine even PFL thinks right now. Like however this evolves and plays out is going to be very compelling to watch if only from a bystander perspective of watching a car crash, if nothing else. So I'm curious. I'm curious to see the meantime.

Ooh, what a day. What a day, what a day. This has been our immediate reaction. Big week. Thanksgiving week starting off strong. It's been our immediate reaction to the big. FFL championship. What a PFL championships it is.

Tying it all back around. $2 million for Sada Buci. Actually, probably not. He's going to lose the double Magumad, but. I love it. I love it. My name is Sean Oshoddy. That man is Jed Mishu.

That man is Damon. We appreciate you guys so much. Keep it locked to the M. Fighting Podcast Network, and we'll see you later. Love y'all.