MMA Fighting - Fighter vs. Writer Debates Alex Pereira Returning to Middleweight, Jon Jones Legacy If He Doesn’t Fight Jon Jones

Episode Date: September 4, 2024

On the latest episode of The Fighter vs. The Writer, UFC legend Matt Brown and Damon Martin discuss Alex Pereira announcing plans to return to middleweight to fight Dricus du Plessis, Jon Jones’ legacy if he retires before ever fighting Tom Aspinall and Brown tells the story about when he almost fought a Diaz brother plus much more.  Subscribe to MMA Fighting Check out our full video catalog Like MMA Fighting on Facebook Follow on Twitter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. Back to the fighter versus the writer. I am Damon Martin. He is UFC legend Matt Brown. And before he heads off to Thailand for a vacation that I'm sure will come back with a lot of stories. Matt Brown has decided to swing by for a final recording for a couple weeks where he takes off. We're going to do this episode. We'll have a UFC 306 preview episode for next week.

And then Matt's going to be gone for a couple weeks. Matt, are you excited for your Thailand excursion? I'm so stoked, bro. It's going to be Fight Circus. Everybody can Google it or Instagram it, whatever. And if you have never heard of Fight Circus, the name describes it perfectly. Like it is a fucking circus. And I can't wait to go over and do it.

You see, Rampage was over. He did it. And it just looks so fun, man. I'm going to have a blast, I think. One of our guys, Jed Michoud, like, swears by it. He thinks Fight Circus is, like, the greatest thing since sliced bread. Like, he loves it. It's so out there and bizarre.

Like I watched it one time and I was like, what am I watching right now? Like what is this? It's so ridiculous. But it is kind of fun. Like they had one that was like a phone booth fight. Like literally two dudes in a phone booth punching each other. And I was like, points for creativity. Like you get points for creativity for this.

Yeah, they mentioned to me about maybe doing ice rink boxing. Boxing on ice. Not with skates, but like actual ice. And where you just slip in and fall in. What else was there? The one shirt boxing, right? Two guys, one shirt against two other guys wearing one shirt. So each fighter gets one hand apiece.

I think they said something about doing a pillow fighting, blindfolded pillow fighting with a bunch of only fans girls. I'm like, oh, okay. Yeah, it's just so ridiculous, bro. It's just it's amazing. Or all wheelchair boxing, like me and I see San Chai did it, where like two people are boxing in wheelchairs and me and someone else, you know,

another celebrity or whatever, we'll be pushing the wheelchair. I love this, bro. Like, it's genius. I think it's a brilliant idea. Oh, I think the one they're going to have me do.

I have a beer in one hand, boxing glove in the other hand. Every time I'll lay in a punch, I have to drink. I'll just be getting drunk in Thailand, boxing one-handed. Oh, my God. It's just so ridiculous

But it just sounds like so much fun Like you can do like nine fights in one night By the time it's all over Yeah Yeah it's not like they're doing like crazy dangerous things or anything And I think I'm gonna be over there with blob tang Have you heard of him? I heard of blob tang

The 300 pound rod tank But he's they call him blob tang And he's just like smoking cigarettes and drinking beer And goes out takes a bunch of punches And just fucking head kick someone Oh my God Most ridiculous thing ever do This is retirement, Matt.

This is what you're doing in retirement. This is how you celebrate it right here. That's a solid retirement if you ask me. The hard question is going to be, am I coming back? Yeah, that might be the end of it. I'll text you in a few weeks. How was Thailand? You're like, I never came home.

I'd be like, well, all right. I mean, I have kids, so I guess I'll probably be back. But, man, that's going to be awful tempting. I know that. When was the last time you were in Thailand? I've never been to Thailand. You've never been. Why do I feel like you've been?

Because obviously our guy, your coach, our guy is over there. I thought maybe you'd been over there with him with Dorian Price. I mean, he's been here. You know, he lived over there for 20 years and he would always bring the knowledge back to me. Sometimes, you know, we would film, you know, he would film himself, like on FaceTime, like over there working with a coach or something. You know, so I would get a lot of the knowledge all the time, you know, would show me techniques and stuff straight from the heartland there.

But I never actually got the opportunity. I've had the opportunity offered to me multiple times, probably like 10 or 15 times, and just something always came up, you know, a fight or, you know, family thing, whatever it was. It just never worked out. But this time, it's on. Going to Thailand. Well, listen, I know, I don't know how much difference the currency rate is there. I know I've had some friends go over to Thailand. And people go to Vietnam and they say, like, you can go stay there and live there for really cheap compared to, like, United States.

States. So I'll put this offer out there as a friend and podcast co-host. If you do get arrested and you need like 20 bucks for bail, hit me up. I got you, Matt. Like, I think, I think they're like super expensive bail will be like 20 bucks. So if you need 20 bucks for bail, I got your back. That's all I'm saying. So I think you can just give 20 bucks to the cop over there. Like, all right, you murdered them. All right, cool. Can you bump it to 25? I mean, you did kill him. Like, all right, all right. Yeah. And if you do go to jail. And if you do go to jail, you can fight your way out. There's a movie about that.

There's some movie about a guy who was like a kickboxer and he got arrested for drugs or something. He literally fought his way out of prison. Yeah, it's actually a pretty cool movie. I forget something like all night or something about nighttime was the name of it. I forget. It's a great movie actually. It's a dude who was in. The guy who played is a dude who's in Peeky Blinders.

I remember that because I remember when it got pitched out to me and a lot of other journalists. They're like, yeah, this movie is like, oh, that's kind of cool. And true story. Like it was like actually based on the true story. So yeah, you never know. So listen, maybe our next podcast is you calling in from jail. And, you know, you're like, hey, man, I'm about to fight over here, a multi-fights to see if I get my freedom or not.

There's all kinds of possibilities of what might happen in Thailand. I get to feel that I'd get out pretty quick. Why does every scenario end up with you somehow in jail or getting in trouble? Why do I? Why is it? Or you come home married. That could be another one. be like, hey, I got a girl over there and we just got married.

That's the potential, too. You know, I am single, you know, ready to mingle. Good times, man, good time. That's a great one, right? Never heard of him before. No, I'm just going to have fun, man. It's going to be a great time. It's going to be a great experience.

So I'm going to stop in Tokyo. So we've got a pretty long lay over there. So I might even have time to go out on the town in Tokyo a little bit. Nice, nice. I remember, yeah, I've never, I've never been to Japan. I've had lots of friends who went to Japan. I know that, I know what my one guy

always told me he went over there. He said that guys like us would stick out like a sore thumb because we're six foot three and tattooed. And like that's just not the norm in Japan. And I'm like, yeah. So yeah, you'll go, you'll walk over there and everyone will be staring like,

what the fuck is this guy doing over there? I've been there before. We did a military tour over there. I did one in Japan. I did one in the, two of them in the Middle East. I've done one in Cuba. A couple of different ones.

but when we did it in Japan, I thought it was so funny because we were, for one, like, okay, when you're at the subway, like they stand in line to get on the subway. And we just did the Middle East tour, maybe, I don't know, three, four months before that. And like, I remember trying to get on airplane and like he's, you know, five foot, Kuwaiti guys are like pushing you. And I'm like, dude, I'm going to fuck you up. Like, what are you doing? They're literally like, you know, funneling in, just shoving each other and shit.

And then you go to Japan, they're actually standing. in line, being polite, and then, you know, you look across the subway station, which there's tons of people. So, you know, your, you're a Caucasian friend across the way just stands out like a sword thumb. And like, you're looking over top of everybody's heads because they're all like five foot two. And you're just like, like, well, there's my other buddy over there, like across this whole

sea of short people. Easy to find him. Easy to find him. I just I don't know that stuck out in my head for some reason like that was it was just so comical to me and may we see some crazy things over there like the food is very unique like like we went you know in the actual cities too we did the military stuff and then we go out into the city went to like a couple malls and stuff and the food like I don't even know because I don't read Japanese or anything and none of us did we had no idea what we're ordering so we just pick out a picture of

something and then you get it and you're still like like I don't know what this is like it looks like something but you're like I don't know what's actually in this thing the one thing I will say about it about Japan sushi is not much better over there bro

everybody talks about how great their sushi is and I'm like America does it pretty good you know where I've had the best sushi is in Vancouver that's where I had the best sushi I've ever had was in Vancouver it was really good I went up there for a couple of UFC shows and somebody's like dude you got to try this

one place, you guys right, this one place that's like a, it's like a, like a food truck almost, like just in downtown Vancouver. I can't remember what it was called, but it's like literally a food truck. And they're like, dude, I promise you, like go there and get sushi. And my hotel was like, I don't know, like five blocks away. So I walked down there either first or second night I was in Vancouver and I got it. It was super cheap, not expensive. Got back to my hotel and it was delicious.

It was like the best sushi I've ever had. I was like, wow, this is crazy. I'm like a food truck. but everyone said like you gotta go there was a line like you can tell it was a popular spot but yeah was it because but was it because the fish on the sushi was so much better or because of the extra ingredients that they put on it i mean a little bit of both i mean i think the the fish did have a slightly different like fresher taste to it i guess the best way to say it like it tastes a little different but yeah i mean it was just really good sushi but again it wasn't

i mean it was the best sushi i've had but again that's grading on a scale because i'm not like it's not like I could never have sushi again because that place was so great that I could never, I could never lower myself to eat Ohio sushi again. But it definitely did taste. It definitely was better. I mean, I had a place in Sacramento that was really good too. But again, I think that was more just because like the combination of ingredients and things like that. It's like the fish, like fish is fish. Like it's not that big of a difference between, I mean, obviously it needs to be fresh, but there's not that big of a difference.

And it just depends on what they put on it. Like we went to two different sushi places in Japan and both of them. You know, it was cool. But you also have to sit, you know, on the floor, basically, you know, with your legs crossed. And I'm just so immobile. I'm just like I'm like suffering the whole time trying to sit like that. Yeah. Yeah, I've never, I've never been to Japan.

That's one of those places I've always wanted to go. But it's just like, I don't like flying that much. Like, I'm not afraid of flying. I just like, I get like anxiety being on a plane for too many hours. I just like I just want to get off the plane and like it's it's tougher too when you're tall like when you're like I don't fly first class I can't afford that so being six foot three in coach is never comfortable no matter how you do it so it's just like by the end of like your knees are always against the seat that's impossible I don't care what you do and by the end of like a six hour flight I'm just like get me the fuck off this plane and so like I know spending from Chicago to Tokyo is going to be 14 hours and I got middle seats the whole way like I tried to up And the only upgrade available is first class, which is like $6,000. And I was like, I guess I'm sitting fucking middle, man. Here we go.

Man, that's right. It depends on who's sitting next to you, though, right? Yeah. Yeah, you might get lucky, but then again, you might not. So it's just that to, I've learned, I did learn because when I was flying all the time at my old job, I'd fly somewhere like every month. I got pretty good at sleeping on planes. Like, I used to never be able to sleep on planes.

I got pretty good at dozing off and sleeping on planes like towards the like ladder half of that I kind of get used to it but it's still not comfortable It's still like miserable Yeah 14 hours dude I'd be going stir crazy like I'd just be like give me the fuck off here Like I'd be throwing elbows to people just like give me out here Yeah well that's why they make colada pins and volumes

So You just remind me though I need to get a neck pillow So there you go There you go so yeah good times in Tyler You're going for three weeks Yeah I'll be back 19th or 20th Yeah. Good stuff, good stuff.

So yeah, as I mentioned, we're going to have our show this week. We'll do a UFC 306 preview for next week. And then our old buddy Alan Jaban is going to step in for a couple episodes while you're out and doing, you know, whatever you're doing in Thailand. Whatever ends up happening. What happens in Thailand stays in Thailand. As I mentioned, UFC 306 next week, we'll get into that in our next episode. But this week, Matt, is weird. We're coming off a weekend with no UOC events, no major boxing events.

It was like everyone took the weekend off for Labor Day, which never happens. Yeah, that's pretty rare, huh? I didn't even think about that, yeah. Like, everything's back this weekend. Yeah, there's a lot of big fights coming up. Yeah, there's a lot of big fights coming up that we're stoked for. Yeah. It's just weird. Like, usually, like, everything, like, at least there's one thing.

But yeah, and let's be honest, Matt, like, Labor Day is not, like, a major holiday. Like, most people work on Labor Day. So. Yeah, yeah, I worked. Yeah. Yeah, getting things prepped for the trip. So, yeah, and I think most people just take the day off and, you know, day off work and fucking sit around and drink, right? Yeah.

I always think, like, when I was like Memorial Day and July 4th were like the holidays that most people got off during the summertime. And like we used to always play baseball. And I'd play softball with my friends on like Memorial Day and July 4th. We do like a softball game and me and my friends at Cincinnati. That was always our thing. We'd have a barbecue after. but Labor Day was like everyone worked. Like for a day that's supposed to be offered labor,

everyone worked on Labor Day. Well, here we are working the day after Labor Day. The day after Labor Day. My birthday today, actually. Oh, happy birthday. How old are you? 80? Yeah, about 84 is how I feel.

So, yeah, about that old. Happy 84th, bro. Yeah, good times, good times. So we got, obviously, without a lot of fights happening, because still a couple of things going on to sport. I'm curious. Matt, as a professional fighter for many, many years, and a guy who spent most of you, did you, hold on,

this is me like not looking directly at your record. You mostly fought obviously at welterweight. Did you ever compete outside of like the ultimate fighter? Did you ever compete at middleweight or other weight classes? Or was it pretty much always Walterweight? Only as an amateur. Only as an amateur, okay. But I remember you telling me at one point,

this is going to make a couple three years, you had actually said like, I was open to a middleweight fight. Like you would have done it. Like you were open to the idea. Have you seen this stuff with Alex Pereer talking about going back down to middleweight and fighting Dracus duplice? Now listen, you know my opinion on Alex Breer. I know your opinion on Alice Prayer.

We're Alex Prairie fans on this show. Why? Why? You've already been that champion. What are we doing here, dude? I said on Twitter, I said, here's an idea. How about state light heavyweight? Defend the title.

No one seems to want to defend the champion. title anymore. But outside of that, if you're going to take a risk, go for a title you haven't had before. Go to heavyweight. I'm not saying that's the greatest idea. I'm not saying I'm not saying I'm rooting for a tab. But I'm just saying like, you've already been there, done that. What are you going to prove by going back to middleweight? Yeah, I'm not sure. That's an interesting question there because like you said, what does he prove by doing? He beat the greatest middleweight. You know, Anderson is probably the greatest. I guess Israel is probably number two behind Anderson but you know one of the greatest middle weights beat him and lost to him but I think there's

great matchups of light heavyweight that's an interesting thought to want to go back down to fight dracus who is clearly a fucking amazing fighter right like I mean he keeps you know keeps winning and we all keep thinking he's going to lose and he keeps winning so like he's doing something right but I think there's more guys that are proven at light heavyweight for him to fight where we'd be more impressed by him winning at light heavyweight, don't you think? Yeah, I mean, obviously he's got Khalil Roundtree coming up in October. I think we all know Magamad Anka Live is the other one out there. Of course, he's got to get through Alexander Rackich coming up in October as well.

But yeah, I just like, if he had never conquered the middleweight title, something happened and like he couldn't get past Adasana or whatever. It was just like he just really wanted to add that to his resume. I'd kind of get it. But you knocked out Israel in his prime. And yes, he did get you back. And I think we all understand that's not a knock on Israel. But we also understand that was an incredibly tough weight cut for Alex to get down to 185.

And maybe that played a factor in him getting knocked. I'm not taking anything away from Israel. I'm just saying, you know as well as I do, Matt. That can play a part in how much head trauma a person can take when you're cutting too much weight. If he had never conquered that division, it was just like sticking in his gut. like I never got it. I kind of understand that, but been there, done that. And, like, now you're a champion of light heavyweight and a dominant champion of light

heavyweight. And if you're really going to, like, if people are going to say, man, you're going to take a huge risk here, why not take the risk of going to heavyweight and fight Tom Aspinall or John Jones or whoever? That's kind of what I was getting at. I think is, like, you got a lot more to lose going down to fight Dracus than you do to win. Like, not everybody's going to be like, wow, you beat Dracus, you know. And if he loses, then it's like, like, I, I don't.

you lost to Drake's an amazing fighter. I think he's done proving that multiple times, but I still think he's one of the more underrated champs, right? Like no one's putting him in like top 10 pound for pound, I don't think. I mean, maybe, but I don't think so. And, you know, and Alex has nowhere to go but up from, or down from here, right? Like he needs big fights to keep going, you know, I think he just needs big fights that people are going to be excited to see like it, light, heavy weight,

and get potentially even heavyweight. Like, we're talking about him going to heavyweight and fighting some of the baddest dudes, like John Jones or Tom Aspinall. And it's like, I feel like he'd be kind of lowering himself. And I don't like saying that because I don't want to take anything away from Dracus because, again, he's fucking badass. But I feel like in, you know, if you're Alex's manager,

you're like, dude, that's not worth the risk. Yeah, when you say lower yourself, I know what you mean? It just doesn't make sense. I mean, based on what he's already done and what he's got going on right now. And listen, I'm with you, man. I've, I said when we did our post show after the Adasanya Drakis fight, I said, I'm done doubting this guy.

Like, I kept picking against him and picking against him and like this guy is going to catch up to him. And he looked incredible and went out there and choked out there and choked out of Sonia and, you know, doing things that, as you, I know you said this, you talked about this with Alice before. You said technically, um, technically, he's

not like the most technically sound striker, but he just does things that gets the job done. Like, you don't look at him saying, man, this guy's just a technical wizard like at Adasadia. You said that about Alex. Dracus, no one's going to look at Drake and say, man, this guy is just a technical wizard. No, but he just somehow finds a way to win.

And I'm done doubting the guy. But I agree. And I think my biggest problem is what I said earlier. Like, why? Like, you've already had that title. If you never wanted, I did it. It's too much to lose. And you got to wonder if Alex or Alex's team is looking at that,

you know, seeing like, oh, Dracus isn't that technical. And maybe if they're underrating him, like, oh, it would be easy. You know, the weight cut is going to be hard, but this should be an easy fight for us. So we'll just go down and take that real quick, and it's going to be a big thing for us. I think Dracus is proven time and time again. That's a mistake to underestimate him.

And I think also, like, maybe if Adasanya was still champ and he wanted to avenge that knockout, even then I'd kind of get it. That would be different, yeah. Yeah, even then I still desperately wouldn't agree with it because it's like you've kind of moved on. But even then I'd be like, all right, you want to avenge a loss and, you know, get that knockout. You'll kind of finish that trilogy, whatever. But I just, there's, like, I don't, I don't get it. And I'm not even saying he should go to heavyweight. I'm just saying if you're going to take a risk, go to the bigger weight class.

So just like when Adasania lost to Jan Blahovich, did we ever lose any, like, respect or admiration for Adasanyi? We're like, ah, he lost to a bigger, stronger guy, and he got out wrestled. And, okay, you're back to being the best middleweight in the world. No one kind of blink an eye at that. No one really cared. Right. But if Adasaya had gone down to welterweight and gotten mauled by Kamar U. Usman, which I know they'd never fight, but I'm just saying like, if that had happened,

we're like, what was the purpose of that, dude? Like, you're the best middle way. Why would you go down and then lose? It just, it doesn't make a lot of sense. And again, as I'm saying, I'm not saying Alex should go to heavy weight. I personally would like to just see him say it like heavyweight and just clear out that division, get five or six top defenses. Nobody does that anymore.

But if you're going to risk it, you're going to say, man, I'm going to take a huge risk with my career. Go fight aspirin. Go fight Aspenal. Go fight John. Jones, at least then if you lose, we can say, well, you know what, dude, you lost to a 265-pound monster like Tom Aspinall, go back and be the best light heavyweight in the world. What does he gain?

If he goes, I mean, as you said, what happens if he goes, because there's a world where Dracus knocks him out. There's absolutely a world where that happens. What do you gain from that? That's what I'm on the same page. Like, if you're going to take a big risk, take the risk with the least amount of downside. Yeah. I mean, there's always downside when you get, when you get hammered by.

Tom Aspinall, but still, like, at least in that case, people say, well, you know what? You weren't a heavyweight? Yeah. We don't, when we say downside, we're never talking about physical effects. Yeah. Because that's just the downside of being in the sport period. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Yeah, it's just, it's a bizarre thing. Like, he seems really adamant about it. I don't get it. Because, again, he never, if he never got the title A or it was Adasania, I'd get it. But Dracus, like, I don't, why? What? that's interesting yeah but you know hey man alice is in that position he can kind of do whatever he wants too though right like he's the fucking one of the biggest stars out there now he is but and i know he actually said this in the social media post he's like i gotta handle my business in october but dude it's a massive mistake though we're like a guy like calil roundtree because that guy hits like a truck he's really good i know we talk all the time about like our shock of him knocking out go konsaki the way he did go konsaki one of the greatest kickboxes of all times for you time when out there just absolutely flatten that dude do not look past collo roundtree because

there is absolutely a world where calillo roundtree goes out there and knocks out Alex prayer in october like we can talk all the dracus and aspinol and moving weight class that all may not matter after october because he absolutely could be looking up at the lights with when kolo roundtree is done with him and you know calil's going to be motivated for this fight too right alex is obviously a tough guy and is a tough big challenge for him cleoel's got a lot to prove and you know he's the underdog, so he's going to be hungry, and he's going to be coming into this fight ready. Yeah, I know also, speaking about changing weight classes and big fights,

I know we talked before, and I've had this conversation with Laura Sanko as well, we talked about, you know, if Alex does switch weight classes, we all, I think we all kind of agree, like, heavyweight would be the way to go because there would be bigger fights for him. And obviously we know right now, like we got, at heavyweight, we got John Jones and Steepay, it's November, it's going to happen. November 16th, I think is the date, MSG, you know C 309 it's not signed but I'm telling you it's pretty much a done deal

and Tom Aspinall I don't know how much you paid attention Tom Aspinall has been getting super vocal lately basically like calling out John said I'm a retiring without ever fighting him and John John left some pretty uh pretty vulgar comments on some Tom Aspinall post saying I wish you get this I wish you get it my big black you know what out of his mouth and just going at it we've talked about this so many times man I don't want to just like repeat ourselves here but um What do you think about Tom getting a little bit more vocal here?

He's getting a little bit like, Tom is always kind of like the nice guy. Now he's just like almost like, fuck this dude. Hey, you respect to him. He's trying his best, right? I mean, he wants the fight and he rightfully should be wanting the fight, you know, in a perfect world. I think he probably gets the fight. But, you know, that's not the, you know, we're in, this is the entertainment business, right?

It's not just the, you know, rankings, you know, it's not a tournament style or, you know, just rankings based 100%. So he's just going to try his best and try to promote it the best he can. And clearly he's getting John, you know, in his mind a little bit at least. You know, he's responding to him and talking shit to him back. So I think it's a great thing. And it's the best Tom can do. There's literally just nothing else that he can even do.

So, you know, more power to him. It's funny because, you know, John doesn't really seem like he spends a lot of time online. but clearly he's responded several times, so I think it's getting... When I say getting to him, I'm not saying it's getting to him, like it's bugging him more, like he's getting the messages.

Like, he's seeing the responses, and he's responding. But I don't think there's anything that's going to make him waver from the Steve Miochi's fight just because he's wanted it for so long. And I know you said, I pretty much agree that, like,

I'm fine with them having this fight. I've argued that I think the UFC shot themselves in the football even introduced the interim title when we didn't really need that, you know, when it happened. And I know John, I know at this point, John's been out for a year, but at the time, you know, we're like, it was just to sell a pay-per-view. I didn't really understand the point of it, but whatever.

That's just how the UFC operates, and I understand what they're doing. But they kind of created a problem that didn't need solving at that point. They could have just had Sergei and Tom fight for a number one contenders fight. Now, granted, neither one of them would be getting a title shot right now. But, again, that's neither here nor there now. But I'm with you. I understand. I understand about the, you know, the Steve A. John fight.

But I think the argument is now, like, everyone's like, John's afraid of Tom Aspinall. John needs to fight. Tom, and I'm like, listen, would I like to see John Jones and Tom Aspinall? Absolutely. Do I think that'd be an incredible fight? 100%. Am I picking John Jones to beat Stephen Miochich in November? I am.

Here's the thing, though. And I know people are going to like to hear this, and I think you're going to agree with me, Matt. John Jones doesn't need Tom Aspinall. Like, John Jones retires today. He's the greatest of all time. John Jones retires tomorrow. He's the greatest of all time. John Jones goes out there and wipes up Stephen Miochich in November.

He's the greatest of all time. John Jones fighting Tom Aspinall, like it or not, is not going to change my opinion of John Jones' legacy. And here's the story I'll tell you, man. I think here's where you'll agree with me. When George St. Pierre beat Michael Bisping to become middleweight champion a few years ago, beat him dominantly, choked him out, became two-division champion. And then a few months later, he gave up the title and said, my insides are messed up, whatever it was he had.

And I can't fight Robert Whitaker's. Robert Whitaker was the interim champ at that point. I don't remember people being like, Georgia's legacy is tainted forever because he didn't fight Robert Whitaker. We all just kind of moved on. I know there's like this disdain towards John Jones and all I get it. I'm not defending the guy's behavior outside the cage. But I'm just being honest. He doesn't need Tom Aspinall to better or worse. his legacy. That's all I'm saying.

Totally agreed. I think you hit the nail round on the head. That's totally agreed. The fact is it'll be forgotten, right? No matter what Tom does. Like if John retires after he beats Stepe, I mean, you know, we're in the age of everything happening, you know, news is news for a day, right? And maybe for a day or two, there'll be some people on Reddit saying that John was scared of Tom or whatever.

By next year, he'll still be the great. greatest ever the next week or whatever you know like no one's going to be like oh john's not the greatest ever because he didn't fight tom as but not i don't think a single person is going to say that you know they're just going to talk a little bit of silly stuff for a couple days or whatever and it'll be completely forgotten just like with gsp it was like it was a great example because next week it was all forgotten and i didn't even remember that he was you know turned down to fight robert whittaker right i didn't remember that being talked about at the time. And, you know, I was deep in the sport at that point. So it's like,

you know, it's just one of those things where, you know, everybody loves the, you know, put their own little opinions on things for a day or two and then it's forgotten about the next day. Yeah. And listen, I love Tom. I think Tom's a monster. And do I think Tom could present problems for John Jones that hasn't been presented at a long time? Absolutely. Do I want to see that fight 110%? But I'm just saying to like, John Jones retires, if he beats Steve A and retires, that doesn't change my opinion to John Jones because John Jones's legacy

was mostly built a light heavyweight anyways like just like George C.NPierre his legacy was mostly built a Walterway is it cool that he went up and conquered another division? Yeah, that's a cool little accolade that on there. No one's going to be safe

because he beats Stepey. Like no one's going to be like oh John Jones was the greatest heavyweight of all time. Right? And I don't think that's what John is trying to accomplish either. He just wants a couple big fights

and then he's going to get out. Like he's the greatest. I mean, there's, you know, the only debate about whether he's the greatest or not is when you, you know, talk about the banned substances. Like, that's literally the only argument you have against it, right? I mean, I don't think there's any other argument. Like, we all know John was the greatest of all the time. Now is he pound for pound the best right now? That's where the argument gets a little more questionable.

Yeah, I disagree. But if Dana White, then it's not questionable. You're Dana White, man. You are 100% confident this John Jones is the greatest. the power for my best fighter in the world. I disagree. I think it's Islam Ocatchew. But, and I think you know, like, I'm a massive John guy. Like, I think John is the greatest. I've said it, like, nine times.

This is greatest of all time. I think that's where Dana is getting, like, I think he's, like, conflating the two, like, the greatest, the pound for pound. I think that's, but anyways. Yeah, yeah, like, again, you know, as you said, you forgot all about the Robert Whitaker thing. I, I remembered only because I was around covering it at that point, but, like, no one held that against George. No one was like, you didn't fight Whitaker. not legit. Huh?

No. Like, and John's legacy. To be fair, you know, Robert's not the type to, you know, put out a bunch of tweets or whatever and talk shit to George about it. Oh, you're ducking me or whatever. Kind of like Tom is sort of doing, right? So that just, you know, conflates that news even more. But again, it's temporary.

And it would be different. It would be different if this was during John's run at light heavyweight or Georgia's run at Welchweight. and there was a legit welterweight contender who's like, you didn't fight me, you need to go through me. Oh, for sure. Or light heavyweight, same kind of thing. But, you know, and it didn't happen.

And John left light heavyweight years ago. So it's not like people can say, oh, you're ducking. No one's saying he's ducking Alex Pereira because Alex Pereira is a champion. No one said, oh, John, you're ducking Alex. He's a heavyweight. No one's saying that. John is, John, I mean, John has been a heavyweight for one fight. Like, his legacy is not built on heavyweight.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember John. ever saying I'm out here now to try to be the greatest heavyweight. He's like, I'm the greatest fighter. I got that in the bag. I'm the greatest fighter of all time. I'm going to fight a couple heavyweight fights. Yeah, he might even be a little bit picky about who I fight. I'm the greatest fighter of all time, bitch.

I get to pick my fights now. I don't, I'm not out here. Again, I don't remember I ever saying, like, I'm out here to attempt to prove that I can also be the greatest heavyweight. He's like, no, I'm just moving up, getting a couple of days. days, get some big fights, have some fun, not have to cut weight, and move on with my life. And Tom is more than welcome to build that narrative. I mean, I thought it was actually a pretty brilliant line that I'm going to retire John Jones

with I were fighting him. I'm like, that's a good line. Like, that's a really good line. Now, is it true? Did you actually retire John Jones? Like, was he trying to avoid you? No, I don't think he's trying to avoid Tom Ash. But I just think he knows that, like, maybe it will happen.

Maybe it will happen. I'm not discounting the fact that it could happen. I'm just saying that whether or not John Jones fights Tom Aspinall doesn't affect his legacy. And I think that's what's getting lost in all. People are trying to conflate John's avoiding the fight or John's ducking him. I don't think that's true whatsoever. I just think that John sees he has limited time left in the sport. He knows Steepa is a big fight.

Like it or not. I understand Steve A's been out for years, but Stepe does have that mark on his resume. He's the longest reigning heavyweight champion in the UFC history. and he is at worst one of the top two or three heavyweights ever. I don't care. You want to argue Fador? I'm not going to argue against it, but you cannot deny that Steve Mioch is one of the greatest two or three heavy weights ever to fight MMA.

I understand he's been out for four years and he's 40 years old or 41 years. I understand all that. But there's still something special about adding that guy to your resume. I get it. But to say that, yeah. But as I'm saying, like, John doesn't need Tom. And I'm not saying that as a knock on Tom. I think Tom's phenomenal.

I think Tom probably is the best heavyweight in the sport right now. But John doesn't need that to say, oh, I'm the greatest. I'm not the greatest while time because I didn't fight Tom Aspinall. That's just not the case. Yeah, no one. I don't think anyone's ever going to say that. So, you know, it's in Tom's best interest to do what he's doing and try everything he can and try to get the fight.

It's the smartest thing he can do right now, right? That's the biggest fight potentially out there for him. If it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen, you know? like, you know, move on. And he can, and listen, I like what he's doing. He's like, what he says, like, when you're on your way out of the octagon, just got and hand me the belt because you're like, you're not going to fight me. I was like, that's good shit.

Way to go, Tom. I like Tom's getting a little fired up here. I enjoy that. Doesn't mean the fight's going to happen, no. Does it mean John's scared to him? No. Does it mean John's legacy is ruined? No.

But I like that Tom's getting a little fired up right now. Agreed, agreed. Again, it's all he can do. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Last thing real quick Before we get out of here for this week I wanted to us out there to you Matt

And because I was talking I did an interview and maybe you saw it today I posted with Joe Lozon Joe Lozon talked about how he's like You know probably done fighting Probably not gonna fight again But he's still not gonna retire Because who knows

Maybe something will happen He'll fight again And I've heard some news Maybe it's a little breaking news I don't know this is breaking news It's just news You remember when they scheduled that fight In August for Nick Diaz to come back

Remember that? when he was going to fight Vicente Lucke. Sounds like they're working on putting that back together again. Okay. What is your interest level in a Nick Diaz fight in 2024? I think Nick is always entertaining. It's always cool to watch. You know, hopefully he comes in healthier than he did

against Robbie Lawler in his last fight. You know, Vicente certainly no pushover. So that's an interesting match. But, you know, I guess you just got a, Ask yourself, I mean, only Nick knows the answer. Is he doing it because he needs some cash? Is he doing it because he just can't stop fighting? Is he doing it because he truly wants to compete?

And I guess that's where, you know, I can't really give a clear answer on my end because I don't know the answers to those questions. You know, but what is his motivation and what's he coming in to do? With that said, I'm always down to watch a Nick Diaz fight. even if he's out of shape. Yeah, Nick's one of those guys. You were, you were, were you, did you ever, did you ever come close to a Diaz matchup?

Why don't I feel like you did at one point? Was it Nate? I was slated to fight Nate Diaz. That's what it was. Yeah. And it never came through though. When was that? I don't even remember, actually.

I think it was like 2015, I want to say. I think it was when he, I don't even remember. Was that during when he had that little weltoe run for a little? while there when he fought like he felt like roy McDonald around was there around that time? It must have been that that sounds right. Yeah, I think it would have been if I remember it would have been his first

welterweight match up. Okay. Yeah, he fought, didn't he fight Marcus Davis? Am I remember that correctly? Roy Markham, he fought one of those guys, I think. I'm not sure. I don't remember. I just remember getting the contract and it was actually, it was kind of funny. I kind of knew that I wasn't sure if Nate would really want to fight me or not because

you know, I know how the Diaz's are, right? They want to fight guys they don't like, right? And, you know, I'm cool with them, right? I'm not going to talk trash to them. And, you know, I respect them as martial artists. I think we have a mutual respect. And but I did want to get the fight. You know, I thought it was a good matchup for me.

And so I wanted the fight. So they sent me a contract. So I signed the contract. and then I posted the contract on social media, you know, trying to get Nate fired up, right? Like, okay,

let's fight. And apparently there was a typo in the contract where it said five rounds. So the UFC lady, who I'd had a couple run-ins with before, I'm not going to say her name. I'm nice to her now, and she's nice to me now, but we had a couple run-ins,

and she, like, really disliked me for some reason. And, and, um, So anyway, like she literally sent me an email just screaming, like almost cursing at me, saying like I'm trying to get her fired and all this shit because she made a typo in the contract. So I had to remove the post from social media. You know, I was like, I didn't even look at the rounds. I was like, I just signed a contract that posted it. And so I didn't even look at the rounds.

And yeah, so anyway, yeah, we were supposed to file. So her, if you want to hear the whole story, I guess while we're on it. it was I believe it was when I fought John Howard um so she was in charge of like who wears you know what color shorts um in some manner you probably know who I'm talking about because you know all the yeah I think I know you're yeah I think I know you're and apparently I had either I put on the wrong shorts on accident so we're both

wearing like black shorts and like when I got to the back like she was screaming at me and I was like I just won a fight and I'm getting screamed at in the back and I was like, I was like, damn, like, sorry. I mean, I just grabbed some shorts. I didn't know what the fuck I was doing. I'm like, I'm kind of focused on a fight, you know? So we had a couple run-ins, and, but that was where it all started.

And she just had, like, his total distaste for me throughout the whole career. Jeez, man, that's rough. Whatever happened. So I remember, yeah, so we've, I know we've talked to us a little bit. So you posted up a contract online on social media. You obviously took it back down again. But did you ever hear why Nate just, did he just pass? or um what's what someone close to him told me is that he just he likes me he was like no i like you

bro like i don't want to fight you and i was like fair enough i respect that i respect that yeah i respect it yeah you know he wasn't the name that he is now either like you know he was kind of still just a daz brother at that point so um you know after he beat connor mcgregor that might have been a different situation where i'm like bro we're fighting like you know what i mean but uh at the time, I mean, he was basically just another guy. You know, I just thought it would be a fun matchup. Yeah. And I looked up to the Diaz's so much.

Like, that was kind of what was exciting about it. My first UFC live event that I ever went to in my life was when Nick Diaz fought, I believe it was Carl Peresian. Is it the MGM Grand? And, I think he lost the caro, right? Yeah, he lost the car. Yeah, okay. So it was that one, right?

It was by a decision. Because I remember after the fight, I was like, I just went to take a pee or something, and he's walking around the stadium. And, you know, back then, I mean, there was probably like 10,000 people there. You know what I mean? It wasn't like half, it wasn't even halfway sold out. He's just walking around the stadium. And I just talked to him for a minute.

And I just remember how pissed he was that he was getting half of his pay. He didn't even care they lost the fight. He's like, it's bullshit. I'm getting half my pay, you know. But anyway, you know, so I had a lot of respect for him. you haven't already met the guy, you know, when you're like an up-and-coming fighter, you go to UFC and meet someone, you know, there's like a little bit of looking up to him at that point.

Yeah, absolutely. No, that's cool. And, yeah, I respect, I respected that, like, of all the reasons Nate didn't end up wanting to fight you because he likes you. I was like, that's, you know, it's like such a Nate Diaz reason, right? Yeah, but, like, it would have been a great, I do remember talking about this in the past. Like, it would have been a great fight, but in a weird way, I'm kind of like, yeah, I kind of respect that like it's kind of cool and Nate just like yeah I like you man I don't want to fight yeah yeah I like

I'm cool with it you know yeah it would have been a cool fight it would have been it would have been fun though you know with all due respect to him I love Nate Diaz but yeah I think it would have been a fun fight is that if you had to not ranking necessarily if you look at all the fights you had proposed to you over the years and I know not all of them happen would that be like the one that got away like all the fun all the fights you ever got offered that didn't happen would that be like the one where you're like man i kind of wouldn't again not like a not in like a bad way like man i really want to kick his ass more just like it would have been a cool fight but is that the one or is there another one i mean i looking back now i would i would say that because again after he fought

connor you know he became a gigantic star and now he's a huge star so yeah that would have been at the time it wasn't that big of a deal though right he was just a diaz brother and i was like dude that's fucking cool i love the way you guys fight i love your energy i love your style but looking I mean, that was probably the biggest name that got away. The only other one, I think, in my opinion, for me, that was kind of got away was Tiago Alves, because I think I would have been a really, really fun fight too. That would have been a banger. Tiago's fun.

That would have been a good fight. Yeah. I remember when he was running through people at Weltsaway, when he fought George, obviously UFC 100. It was a tough loss. It was made up to that. But I remember when he chopped out Matt Hughes with leg kicks, I was like, Jesus Christ. Yeah, dude, Tiago is a monster.

I started training for that fight. was literally just having people kick my leg all day. I was like, dude, I just need a toughen up my leg. Like, I'm going to practice checking and everything, but I want to make sure my leg's tough, too, just in case. I just have guys kicking my legs 100 times a day. That's wild. That's wild.

Yeah, you never know. You never know. Yeah, it would have been fun. All right. We're going to get out of here. Obviously, I want to say big thank you to everyone that tunes in the show. Make sure to check us on all your favorite podcast platforms, Apple Podcast, Spotify. And, of course, over the best website in the world.

Then stick around for next week. We will be having our UFC 306 picks and previews. is probably listen to us breaking down. Maybe don't always go with our picks because we're sometimes rough on those. We do our best, though. And we appreciate everyone that always tunes in to the show. Matt, real quick before you get out of here, anywhere people can check you out at.

At I'm the immortal Twitter and Instagram, the immortal Matt Brown on Facebook. Check out my sponsors. At try underscore create for the best creatine gummies at Redwood Outdoor CO. And use code Immortal, $250 to say $250 on a sign. or cold plunge. Love it. Matt, we will be back

with our UFC 306 preview in a few days as you're out in Thailand doing God knows what. Appreciate everyone tuning into this show. We'll see you next week for another edition

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