MMA Fighting - Fighter vs. Writer Debates Does Jon Jones Need to Fight Tom Aspinall? Did the UFC Make the Right Move Cutting Muhammad Mokaev?

Episode Date: July 30, 2024

On the latest episode of The Fighter vs. The Writer, Matt Brown and Damon Martin discuss the fallout from UFC 304 including Belal Muhammad’s win, does Jon Jones need to pursue a fight against Tom Aspinall after his dominant performance over Curtis Blaydes plus did the UFC make the right move cutting ties with Muhammad Mokaev? All this and more on the latest episode Subscribe to MMA Fighting Check out our full video catalog Like MMA Fighting on Facebook Follow on Twitter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

When I got a great deal on a great gift at Winners, I started wondering, could I get fabulous gifts for everyone on my list? Like this designer fragrance for my daughter. At just $39.99, how could I resist? This luxurious will throw for my sister. This gold watch for my partner? A wooden puzzle for my niece? Leather gloves for my boss?

Ooh, European chocolate for the crossing guard? At these prices, could I find something for everyone at Winners? Stop wondering. Start gifting. Winners, find fabulous for less. You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. Back to the fighter versus the writer. I am Damon Martin. He is UFC legend Matt Brown returning after a travel snaf who took him out for a week.

How was your weird weekend? And was it Houston? Was that where you were? That's where I ended up. Yes. I don't know if I didn't know if I told you that story. I knew you were stuck there. I don't know if I heard the whole story.

You actually were the one that told me about this Microsoft outage, which I had to look up after you texted me that. I was like, what's going on? I looked. I was like, oh, my God. Like, it was in and everywhere. I had no idea that it happened. Yeah, so people told me about it.

And I thought that it was like some conspiracy shit or something. I was like, it didn't happen. Like, you know what I mean? Yeah. I was flying back from L.A. Had a layover in Phoenix. And my layovers, the flight that got canceled. So I was stuck in Phoenix for about four hours.

And they said, well, this was a, this was a lot. Friday and they said with the next flight that we can get you home on is on Sunday because I was at the end of the line you know like there's there's literally like four flights four four lines of flights you know waiting for the

the I don't know what you call them the attendance or whatever you know the people booking you a new flight and I mean it was I was literally in line like three three and a half hours and uh said the next flight was out of Houston on Sunday.

And so I said, okay, well, fly me to Houston. They fly me to Houston. I get into Houston at 12.30 in the morning. I get off the flight and I talk to the attendant. Because they told me they would book me a hotel when I get there. So I talked to the attendant and I said, hey, you know, where's my hotel? And she's like, every hotel is completely booked.

and that was it. This is like, if you can find one, we'll reimburse you. And I'm like, well, how am I supposed to find one? Like, you can't find one. This is 12.30 at night, too. So I went to the nearest hotel there at the airport and slept on the couch lobby, couch in the lobby. And finally about 7 a.m., they finally got me a room, actually.

It was kind of cool. So finally got a room. So I had to spend the whole day in Houston. and blew out Sunday at 2.30. Jeez, man. What a day. What a week? That was a long day. Like waiting in line for four hours, flying for another three or four hours to Houston

and then not getting a, you know, not getting a hotel. And then kind of the fun, I don't know, the funniest part of it, I guess. So I'm sleeping on the, trying to sleep on the couch in the hotel lobby and these like half naked even naked girls are like walking through with these dudes wearing like Judas priest leather and all this shit and finally I asked I was like what the hell's going on and they're like like there's a swinger party across the street everybody's staying here I was like oh that's why it's both up fucking swinger party that's hilarious dude

did you're like I'm staying in Houston for another day shit no I don't you don't want nothing they do with those swinger parties. Dude, that sounds like a night. I think the worst travel thing I ever had was, I was at San, I didn't go to Sandy O'Comicon this year for the first time in a decade, but I was at Sandy O'Comicon a few years ago when I was working on my old job. And I got a call that they were going to do the ultimate fighter with Connor McGregor and Chad Mendez.

It was the card you fought Tim Means on. Remember that when Chad, or when Connor beat Chad Mendez, he was going to coach against Ryah Faber on the ultimate fighter right after that fight. and so Fox, my whole job called me and said, hey, we want to fly you out to Vegas to do interviews with Connor and Chad and the fighters on Friday. Well, this was, I was at Comic-Con until like Tuesday, and they're like, we can fly you straight to Vegas or you can go home for a couple days and come back out. And I was like, well, I want to go home.

I've already been at Comic-Con for a week. I was like, I need to go home, switch clothes. Like, I don't have any clothes with me. Like, I've gone through all my clothes. So I fly all the way home to Ohio. And then, like, a day later, I had one day at home, and I flew back out to Vegas to do all the ultimate fighter stuff over the weekend. Actually, funny enough, I stayed at the Trump International Hotel in Vegas,

which is hilarious looking back at it now, which is actually a really nice hotel. It was actually a really nice hotel for what it was. I'm not a big Trump guy, but that was a really nice hotel. So I go out there, I do the interviews with Connor and the fighters and Chad Mendez, all that, I can see Chad Mendez, you're in a favor and all that kind of stuff. Good day. Sunday night, I'm going to fly home from Vegas. They get hit by lightning storms.

and so I had to fly to L.A. And then I get to L.A. and they're getting storm. So I got stuck in L.A. for like eight hours. And I'm so exhausted at this point. And they finally got me on a flight back. I had to go to Atlanta. And I was in Atlanta for like four more hours. And I finally got on a flight to Columbus.

But that was like the longest two weeks of my life because I was on vacation in San Diego. And like when you're on vacation at Comic-Con, you're not really resting. You're like walking like 10 miles a day around Comic-Con. So like I was already exhausted. I got one day at home to do laundry and repack, go to Vegas. I was in Vegas for three days. And then had to go just to travel and the way home was just a nightmare. So I think that's the worst one I've ever had.

I've actually had worse than I just had. But I've slept in airports. Yeah, you know, it's freaking terrible, man. But whatever, you get through it, get it done. And we're back home and got home in time to not watch UFC 304. So I miss that. Like I was too tired. But yeah, but I did see some results.

We've had a pretty good weekend. I was very, very shocked. Tell me if you feel the same, Damon. I was very shocked that Balaw beat Leon. And Belaw is an amazing fighter. Like, I'm taking nothing away from him. But in the first fight, before the eye poke, I mean, Leon didn't even look like he was trying. Yeah, so I'm proud to say I did pick Bilau to win that fight and I have proof.

I do it. We do a group pick on topology and I need there's proof in the pudding. I can show you. What was your pick based on? A lot of it was based on just the heart and determination that I knew Bilal had. Like it's almost like Bilau. Yeah, is that? I think Bilal has gotten to the point now where it's like almost like he's defying the odds and he gets up for that.

And I think that does, you know, when you're the underdog, so much of the time, I think some guys really relish that. I think Below relishes that. And I think that the improvements I've seen out of Below in his last four or five fights with what he did to Gilbert Burns, what he did to Wonderboy, what he did to Sean Brady. I just saw improvements. And again, I wasn't sitting there saying it was going to be a blowout. I knew Leon Edwards was very good.

He was a dangerous striker. But I almost felt like Leon was set up for failure because he was so confident. and Bilau had that underdog mentality, and I just, and Below, you know, listen, maybe, again, you get, you get drawn into interviews and things like that. When I talk to Bilau right after the fight got made, like, he's just like, dude, I'm telling you, like, I'm going to go out there, I'm going to put on this guy, he's never going to have a second to breathe. I'm not going to, you know, I'm not going to let up.

And boy, exactly, that's how it played out. He got in his face. I mean, Bilau beat him in striking. Below beat him in the striking. He jabbed him. He had an uppercut. I think it was in the second round. and I think I don't think Below realized it in the moment and I'm going to talk to Bilau sometime this week but he uppercut him and Leon was wobbled and I think Leon I think Below didn't realize how badly he was hurt

and he went in and got a take down and slammed him on the ground I think if he would have just kept going to striking he may have gotten a knockout like that's I was stunned at how one-sided it was and then yeah I mean obviously had that one round where Leon reversed him and got on his back but he was never threatened he never even came close to a submission and never really hurt Below.

He just had his back for four minutes. So, Belal just didn't do anything stupid to get caught. And then the rest of the fight was just Bilau beating him up, taking him down, slamming him on his head. I mean, it was, it was damning. It was the fight that I thought Usma would have against Leon the second time. Not the third time, not the one they met the last time, but when they fought in Utah. I thought that's what he would do to Leon. And he didn't.

Leon obviously knocked him out in the fifth round. But that's the fight I thought Usma would have. and Bilal did it instead. Yeah, that's what, I mean, that's why I really believed in Leon's wrestling. I mean, you know, he stifled a lot of what Usband was trying to do to him. And, boy, I mean, I don't know if it speaks for Leon not showing up. That's what I read a lot was that Leon kind of just didn't show up and was kind of a dead fish the whole time. Or does that speak to Bilal being that good?

I mean, he's certainly that determined and, you know, he works out hard and, or, earned everything that he has, but, you know, is he really that good or did Leon not show up? And I'd have to watch the fight to make a decision for myself, but unfortunately, I kind of miss this whole card that we're going to be talking about. Well, I mean, I understand what people are saying, but I, you know, I know we've had this discussion before, and you talk about this a lot, like instead of blaming the guy who didn't show up, let's credit the guy who did. And in this particular instance, I honestly don't think, I know Leon said he felt a little off

and all those kind of things. I honestly don't think it was that. I really do believe it was the Bilau and his team had the perfect game plan because he was in Leon's face from the first second of the fight. And he never gave him room to work for one. Like he got right in his face because obviously Bilal Shorter has less, you know, less length on him. So he had to close the distance. He did that. And then when he got in deep on those takedowns, he just continuously pushed and went for those takedowns.

He never gave up on the takedowns. And I think after that first and second round where Leon really just got. just got dumped on his head like four times and got controlled. I think it kind of broke him a little bit. Now, again, he did come back in the third and he won the third, but then nothing really turned around for him in the fourth. Like he didn't build on that. He didn't take the confidence from having Bilal's back for four and a half minutes

and then turn it around and doing anything different. If anything, I think he actually looked more tired than Bilau did going into that fourth round. So, yeah, I just think Bilal had the right game plan. And I think it shocked Leon how confident Below was and how, I won't say, I hate to use the word easily, but how easily he took him down

because you're right. Like when you look at what he did to Ooswin, you look, I mean, Colby didn't even try to take him down. And Leon just shut him down. I think that first round, when Belal got in deep and literally picked him up and tossed him down,

I think there was a little bit of that, like, oh shit, like, uh-oh, like, I didn't think he could do this to me. And you and I vote no, Matt, when you get into a fight like that, like, and I've seen it, you've been there, you know, when you have that doubt planted in your head early, it just grows.

And I think that's what happened to Leah. I think he's just like, oh shit, I didn't see this coming. And then it just spiraled from there. It's wild. It was very unexpected for me. Just that the fight they had before, I mean, Leon just looked like it was just going to be a walk in the park, you know? And it looked like he didn't even have to get out of third gear to make it happen.

And, yeah, I guess Ballal improved, right? We got to give credit where credits do. He improved, got the job done. And, boy, what a journey for Ballal, man. You know, he's went from how many fights did he win in a row now? And, you know, everybody doubting him. And, you know, so you got to, you got a, man, mad respect to Belal for everything he's done.

Yeah, I just, like I said, you know, 10 fight unbeaten streak, you know, had to, I mean, let's be honest. Like, he wasn't the number one choice because if he wasn't. he would have fought Leon last year and Colby would have been waiting. Colby never deserved that title shot. We all know that. Colby hadn't fought in a year and some change. And his last win was over Jorge Mazda, like a year and a half earlier.

He didn't earn that title shot. But he got it because Colby's a name and Colby's, you know, constant contender. Below wasn't supposed to be the guy. Below almost got his title shot by default. Like he wasn't the guy people were banging the drum forcing. This guy deserves it. He's number one. Let's see it.

He got it because. He was, I mean, he legitimately did earn it, but, you know, you know, we, I'd sell the time strike that word deserves me your vocabulary. But yeah, like, the whole earn and deserve are two different words, right? Yeah. The earn, you can earn it with your mouth and selling tickets, putting butts in seats. That's earning it every bit as much as winning a bunch of fights. But when, when you do like Belaw did, you just win a bunch of fights, boring or not,

that's deserving. Yeah. And he did. In my, too, my opinion. No, I agree. I agree. And, and, but the thing is, again, he wasn't, you know, he's just not that dude. Like, he's not out there wrecking people like Shavkat.

He doesn't have a mouth like Ian Gary where he talks all the time. And, you know, he's not that dude. Like, he's just not that guy. But, gave him to the shot, made him go to Leon's backyard to do it, fight at freaking 5.30 in the morning or whatever it was over there on, on England time. And he went out there and put it on him. And it was super impressive. And I know, like, the odds already came out. for a fight with Shabkat.

He's like a three to one underdog against Shabkat. I get it. Shavkat looks like a monster. But it's just like this dude's going to be, I mean, he could be a five-time defending champion. I think people are still going to be like, but this time, this is the time. This is when Leone is when Blat loses.

I'm surprised he's that big of an underdog against Shavkat only because like Shavka has a show and anything. I mean, well, I take it back. He hasn't beaten anybody to show, to show that he should be that big of a favorite. I would favor Shavka too because, like you said, we're probably going to feel that way about Belaw a lot. Like, oh, it's going to be this time or this time.

And he's probably going to prove us wrong a lot more than not. But Schofcott, I mean, he just doesn't have the resume like Bilal, right? I mean, his biggest win, right? His wonder boy, I think, right? Did he have a bigger win, you think? That's his last one. It'd be Jeff Neal, but I mean, I don't know that I put Jeff Neal like, you know, towards the top.

And that was a battle, too. It wasn't like he went out there and blew Jeff Neal on the water. That was when he actually had to gut up a little bit. Yeah, he beat Wonderboy, but I don't know beating Wonderboy now is the same as beating Wonderboy even three years ago and like Bilau beat him. And even, you know, MMAs, I just so matchups too, right? I mean, you know, Shavkat did what you need to do to Wonder Boy. You come forward, put him against a cage, take him down and, you know, work the grappling. I mean, that's a smart game plan.

You know, when Wonderboy was in his prime, I mean, he was or considered his prime, right, beating Hendricks. and Woodley and those guys, you know, or he didn't beat Woodley, did he? He did beat Woodley. No, he lost him twice. Yeah, my bad. Yeah. Well, when he was beaten a lot, it was like they weren't trying to take him down.

Yeah. I mean, those were the guys that he was beaten. I mean, there was, you know, some instances of guys trying to take him down. And his take down defense has improved immensely for sure. No doubt about it. But, you know, this is, it's a matchup game and how you show up that night. And so, you know, my point is,

what Shavkat did to Wonderboy doesn't show me anything to say he's going to be Belaw. Yeah, I agree. I listen to you. I think Shabkat's a monster I do, but I agree. Like, when you look at his resume,

his biggest Windsor Jeff Neal and Wonderboy, well, Balau did that to Wonderboy three years ago, and he didn't submit him, but he took him down and mauled him and it wasn't a close fight. Like, Wonderboy was never in that fight. Yeah, Shabkat finished him, and credit to Shabok Shabqah for doing that, but the result was the same.

wasn't a close fight. Wonderboy didn't steal a round and he didn't almost have a knockout. Belal just took him down and beat him up for three rounds and Shabkat took him down and submitted him. I mean, it's not that much different in terms of like the game plan of what they actually executed. But you look at, you know, what he did to Sean Brady, what he did to Gilbert Burns, what he did to Vicente Lucke. Yeah. I just, I know people are going to disagree with me on this and I'm fine that you disagree with me on this because I don't, I don't have a problem if you give Shavkat the title shot right now because Bilal needs a contender. They're not going to give

Lee on the rematch. He's on the win streak. I get. I have no problem with that. But me personally, I'd like to see him get one more win, whether that's an Ian Gary. Personally, the fight, I'd like to see him and Usman. I'd like to see him fight Kamar Usman. You beat Usman that way, you tap out or put Usman

away, then, dude, I got zero qualms about you going right for the title. But I'm with you. Like, I think he's the real deal. I really do. I think he's the real deal. But we've seen this before Matt you need that test just to just to kind of confirm everything you know what I mean and and he hasn't quite had that yet no that's exactly and for me again it's a I would probably you know if I were a betting man you know I would probably put my money on shopcutt I'm not going to lie

and maybe that's you're dismissing ball again maybe I'm making another mistake just like I did last week I tend to do that if you haven't noticed like I like like my record of picking fights is probably like like five and a hundred. Don't you know don't listen to my picks ever or just pick against me and you're probably going to win. But my point is I'm regardless, I'm surprised that he's that big of a favorite against Ballal. I can totally get him being a favorite just the way he's looked and the way that he's done,

everything that he's done. But three to one, that's a, that's pretty hefty favorite against the guy like And I also think, like, as good as Shabkat's been, and again, I want to be clear, I like Shabka, I think he's a monster, but, you know, 18 fights, 18 finishes. But what happens when it doesn't get a finish? Like, can he go deep in the third, fourth round? Can he go to cardio machine like Below? Maybe he finishes him in the first round, and we never know.

Maybe that's just what happens. But those are just a little minor, very minor questions I still have about Shafkak, just because, again, like you're holding finishes against him? no, I'm not holding finishes against him. I'm just saying, like, we legitimately have not seen him in a dog fight. We had that same question about John Jones forever. Like, how would John Jones deal with adversity? Then he fought Gustafson showed that he can gut out a really hard fought win.

Did not come easy to him. Did not, you know, he didn't just go out there blow a guy out of the water. I think we'd learn more about John Jones coming out of that fight than we knew going in. I'm just saying I'd like to, I'd like to see Shavkat pushed a little bit more. I'd like to see him, I guess the guy like Kamar Usman, who is, you know, just a top. ranked welterweight former champion we know i'm possibly tough he is yeah i'm just saying like not that you're doubting him but you you got to see it first i mean it's like anything if you haven't seen it you don't know if it's going to happen or not yeah and maybe he goes out there and he assassinations

oosman in the first round and then all my questions are answered because he just beat a freaking you know maybe the second grade is welterweight of all time and goes out there and doesn't make so look easy, then okay, fine. But I just, I just, I just, I'm with you. Like, I think he's, I think he's the real deal. I think he's a monster, but I don't know that that Wonderboy flag is the one I want to plant on the ground and say, man, that's the win. That gets you the title shot because I like Wonderboy. You know I like, Wonderboy is one of the nicest guys in sport. But Wonderboy now is not the Wonderboy that fought even Woodley like five years ago. It's just, I mean, like it or not, you just, you're not the same dude anymore. You know what I mean? So, you know,

I don't know. Like I said, I don't have a problem if he gets a title shot, and there's probably a good chance he's going to get a title shot. But if he had to fight one more, Usman, Gary, something, I think I'd be okay with that. Yeah, I'd like to see him in Ian Gary fight personally. I think that'd be an awesome fight. I do too. I do too. Gary, great striking, long rangey, you know, can, because listen, the struggles that Shab Kat had on the feet were with Jeff Neal and Jeff Neal hits hard. I mean, Ian Gary is a slick striker man. Like, he's a slick striker man. Like, he's, you know. He's, he's a slick striker man. Like, he's, he can't. He can't. He can't. He can't. He can't he. He can He's a very good striker. We also know he's got good jihitsu. So, yeah, I think it would be interesting. And listen, Ian called for it. Credit to Ian Gary. He called for that fight. He's like, give me Shavkat.

I like that. Like, let's get a real number one contenders fight, you know? I like it. Yeah. And that is a real number one contender, too, in my opinion. You know, as this division moves on, right? Like, it's itching for new contenders. So put them in it.

And either one of them is a future star, too. You know, whoever wins that, if they have. to go on and win the title. You know, they're legitimately in there for a title, but either one of them could be a star. So which is one of the interesting things about UFC versus boxing, right? Like UFC will put two potential stars together, fight it out.

Let's see who's going to be the real star. We're boxing here. You're going to have two stars, you know, on parallel paths for five years before they come together. Yeah, like I'm still shocked. We saw Crawford and Spence fight. I'm being honest with you know, that was for titles. So I'm still kind of shocked that actually happened. Yeah, or even

Well, Loma Tank's not happening now But that was the one I think Oh, Bevold Better Beave. Yeah. Yeah, that's a similar thing. You know, Better Beav has really started coming out In the limelight in the past few years And, you know, Beval, obviously, you know,

With him beating Canello, everybody knows who he is now. So that's a, I was surprised that that one got made. Turkey. It's a both of them. They both got balled. and they both believe in themselves. Turkey Al-Shake, putting money where his mouth and saying, you want fights to happen? I'll make them happen.

I like that, dude, take over, man. We're getting fights we want to see now in boxing. I'm excited for that. Tom Aspinall goes out and just blows through Curtis blades and in a minute flat. I'll be the first to admit, Matt. I've not been on the Tom Aspenol bandwagon as much as a lot of people.

For much of the same reason I said about Shabkat, because Tom Aspinall spent less than two rounds in the cage with anybody ever. Like he's never gone past the second round. And, you know, heavyweight, you know how that goes, you know, once you get taken into deep waters, all those kind of things. But, man, and listen, I, you know, I love Curtis Blaze. One of my favorite guys of the sport, nice guy, great fighter. I don't think he fought with the best game plan. He went in there and struck with Tom Aspenal.

Never went for a single takedown. That's not the way to beat Tom Aspinall of your Curtis Blades, in my opinion. but Curtis went out there, or excuse me, Tom went out there and put him away in the first round, looked incredible doing it looked an incredible shape to you, man. I had a six-pack for a heavyweight, which is awesome. But I'm coming around on the Tom Aspinall hype, man. Like that to me, I wasn't totally sold after Sergey, but I'm a little bit more sold now because I know how Curtis Blades.

I know how good Curtis Blades is, and he went out there and tore them in a minute flat. I'm coming around on Tom Aspinall a little bit. I was going to say a little bit the opposite. that I've been on the time I spent all trained for the most part maybe not as much as some people but I always knew he was going to be really, really good and that really

didn't show anything to me because Curtis I did get to watch that fight because it was what, like a minute long literally a minute long, literally a minute one minute long, yeah. Yeah, so it was easy to watch real quick and you know

like Curtis just literally just played into Tom Aspen all his hands. I'm sure he was planning to do a take down at some point, but it was like he's literally just tested himself against somebody way better than him in the striking. And it was like just a terrible idea. I was surprised that Curtis didn't come out and shoot in the first five seconds.

I mean, that Curtis knows he's a wrestling. Curtis openly admits, like, I'm here to take you down a lot. And then he didn't do it. Yeah, Curtis's, I think Curtis's biggest downfall has been his inability to game plan properly. Because you look at that fight with Sergei, he didn't go for a takedown. How do you not just spam takedowns against the guy like Sergey Palovich? Sergei's one loss before recently in the UFC was when Alistair over him took him down and just bludgeoned him on the ground. Curtis did that to Alistair.

You tell him that Curtis couldn't have tried to, it was a weird, it was a weird performance. He just didn't even look like he wanted to go for a takedown. That fight, the one on Saturday, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't ding him as much because it's a minute long. Like, maybe he had, maybe he just, you know, he just, like, he, he said on, I think he said on Instagram, like, I got greedy because he did tag Aspinol early and Aspinall kind of backed off. And then he thought he had confidence in his hands. I just think, like, did you hurt him go do it? You need to do it, Bilau did. He hurt Leon and went for the taked.

and where I said, like, he heard him, maybe he could have finished him, he would have kept going. In Curtis's case, you heard him go for the take down immediately, and he didn't. But, dude, I don't know, like, Tom Aspinall just keeps going out there and doing this, and he's done it to everybody. He's done to Volkov. He did, you know, submitted him super quick. He did it to Sergey. He's now done it to Curtis Blades.

Like, I mean, I would, I think a striking match against a guy like Searle Gama would be interesting, but we also know the path to beat Cyril gone. That's been written. And Tom Aspinall is an incredible grappler. Tom Aspinall doesn't have to do anything besides just go out there and out grapple Cyril gone. He beats him. Maybe on striking it would be a little bit more even. But if he goes out there and wrestles Cyril gone, it's going to last a minute and a half too.

Because we know Cyril doesn't have wrestling or grappling. The question is, are you more inclined now towards John Jones, Tom Aspinall? So yes and no. And let me explain. I think I already know, but go ahead. Okay. I said this over the weekend, I'll say it right now. I've switched my opinion on who is the best heavyweight in the sport right now.

The best heavyweight in mixed martial arts right now is Tom Aspinall. I truly believe that. Because John has one fight at heavyweight. And it was impressive, but it's a guy who we kind of know how to beat now. Like Francis Nganoo showed him and then John went out there and did it even better. And John's obviously, you know, a more well-rounded mixed martial artist. But he's been out for a year and a half. and until he beats another heavyweight,

I got to give him to guy credit who's just rolling through every top five heavyweight in the sport, and that's Tom Aspinall. Now, do I need to see that fight right now? I still, I'm with you. I still don't have a problem that Steepa and John are going to fight. It's a legacy fight.

I just say, like, just call it what it is. Like, you have a BMF belt? Just create like a legacy fighting championship belt or some shit. Like, let him go, because you know Stepe's done. Steepa's not sticking around after this fight. This is one and done. for Steve A winner lose. I think if Steve A wins, he's going to lay the title down and say I'm walking

out. If he loses, he's going to lay his gloves down and walk out. This is it for Steve A. I understand why John wants to fight him, and I'm with you. I don't have a problem with him fighting. Plus, I know it was only a minute long, but they just fought July. You know, John and Steve are going to fight November. It's only actually a couple

months away. That's not that far away. Yeah, that's true. You know, so let them fight. But at that point, if John wins, and I'll tell you right now, Matt, way ahead of time, I'm going to pick John to probably win that fight, then it becomes interesting. Then if John, you know,

John Hems and halls and says, ah, I don't need to fight Tom, I want Alex Pereira, then maybe I'll start questioning a little bit. But I don't, do I want to see it? Absolutely. Do I believe Tom Aspinall is the best heavyweight

in the sport right now? Yes, I do. But I don't know that he needs to beat John Jones to maintain that. Like, John's got one fight of heavyweight. And if he beat Steppe, he just beat a guy off a three-year layoff and coming off a loss to Francis and Ghana. Like, did he really get, did he really take out

one of the best guys of the division? Like, you know what I mean? So I want to see it. I have to wonder if John cares so much more now about, like he, everybody, he's pretty well considered the best mixed martial artists of all time, right? The people that argue that are, you know, saying that, you know, he took steroids or something, right?

Like, that's literally the only argument. Other than that, I mean, you know, some people might argue Mighty Mouse, which is, you know, completely different weights and, you know, but there's a pretty well agreed upon consensus that John Jones is, you know, the best ever. So if he goes out there, whether he fights a heavyweight or not, I'm guessing to him, it doesn't matter if it's Tom Aspinall, Stepe, he's like, I already semened this. It's in stone. I'm cool. Like, why risk that now?

Yeah. I don't know if he's trying to go down as the best heavyweight or, you know what I mean? I'm just trying to think about his mind, like where he's thinking about it. You know, Steep A, like, I'm with you. Like, we probably pick Stepe in a fight. You go out there, you beat Stepe. If you fight again, like, do you need to prove that you're the best heavyweight or? Do you just keep fighting for fun now? Because you already see men as yourself as the best ever. I had a preview show last week with Laura Sanko, and Laura said something very smart because Laura's a very smart person. She said,

John Jones is the goat. Tom Aspinall is the best heavyweight. And she says, if John Jones sticks around past Steepie, I think he wants the Alex Pereira fight. It's a bigger fight. No offense to Tom Aspenal, it's a bigger fight. And Alex is now the white heavyweight king. That's John's division.

Yeah, maybe they fight a heavyweight. but that's a bigger fight. I like Tom Aspinall. I'm not saying Tom Aspinall is a bum and he can't sell cards. I'm saying that right now, Alex Pereira is a bigger star than Tom Aspinall. And for John's legacy, beating the guy who is the current light heavyweight champion, would it also be maybe a slightly easier path to victory to beating a Tom Aspinall? Maybe.

I'm not saying anything's easy against Alex Pereira. I'm just saying, like, for John Jones, it probably is like, a more favorable matchup. I don't think she's wrong. And I agree. Like, John's the greatest of all time. He doesn't need to fight steep if he doesn't want to.

Like, John's already submitted himself the best ever. I don't need him to beat Tom Aspinall to submit himself as a greatest of all time. He's already the greatest of all time. But if he wants to stay at heavyweight and he wants to say he's the heavyweight champion, then he needs to fight Tom Aspinall. So it's two different things. That's my point. That's my point.

It's two different things there. Yeah. And I don't know if his head is in the, the space of, you know, I want to be heavyweight champion. If he just wants to be the greatest of all time, then he's like, I already got that. Like I can just fight fun fights now. Like Alex Prayer for him is probably a fun fight.

You know, it's like, I don't know if it'd be a 205 or heavyweight, probably heavyweight, but, you know, that's a fun fight. Like I don't think fighting Tom Alspan all to him is as fun of a fight. I just wouldn't think so. And, like you said, nothing against Tom Aspinall at all. But the fun right now is in Pereira. And tell me you wouldn't watch the Pereira fight. We all would.

It's just like the Steepa day. Everyone's like, oh, I don't want the Steepay fight. You're going to watch the Stepe fight because it's still interesting because Stepe is legitimately at worst, the best UFC heavyweight of all time. You could argue maybe the greatest heavyweight of all time made with Fado right there. And then who's not going to, I mean, will you feel bad for Tom Aspinall that he's not going to get John Jones? of course I will. But are you not going to watch Alex Prairie John Jones? Of course you will.

Right. And John knows that. I'm just speaking for John here, right? He's like, why do I need to fight Tom Aspinall? I mean, look, if Tom in the meantime goes out and wins two more or something, right? Now he's considered the greatest heavyweight of all time. I think that might lure John in. But is he going to do that, you know, in this short amount?

of time. I doubt it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, again, I listen, and I think we've kind of figured this out. I think we've figured it out. John is not fighting to be the best heavy way in the world. John's fighting to be and to continue to be the greatest of all time. Those are two different things. And I'm okay with that, by the way. I'm okay with that. Like, I'm fine with that. And yeah, he beats Steve Bay. He calls out Alex Pereira. It's going to be hilarious. Like Tom Asperl's head's going to pop off his shoulders. But I think that is, but let's be honest. Well, we know where Tom Aspinall is coming from.

Of course he wants that fight. Yeah. Yeah. And he should want that fight. And he should absolutely do all that he can. And yeah, his head should explode if he doesn't get it. But John, in his, you can say the exact opposite for him. Like, I get where John's coming from. Why do that fight?

Well, I want to put it in different contexts where people that are like, oh, John's ducking Aspinol, John's avoiding that fight. I understand there was an illness involved, but when George St. Pierre came back from two years off or whatever it was that he beat Michael Bisping. Now I'm not faulting for fighting the champion at that time, who was Michael Bisping. But Michael Bispin was a bigger name than Robert Whitaker was at the time. We all know that. Bispin was a big name. He went out there and beat Bispin and became champion. Now, I know he had the colitis or whatever was in his stomach and he basically walked away.

But I don't know that George was rushing to fight Robert Whitaker at that time. Like, you know what I mean? Like, did he really gain? Like, yes, okay, he becomes the undisputed champion and, you know, all those kind of things. But George wasn't, he didn't come back for that to begin with. George came back to be able to say I was a two-division champion before I retired. He was the greatest welter went all the time. He wanted to add the middleweight belt, which he did.

But I don't think it's that much different. And I understand he had an illness. I get all that. But he could have eventually come back if he wanted to. He didn't see a value in fighting Robert Whitaker at that point. Robert Whitaker was a monster, a young guy, but not a big name. Maybe Robert Whitaker beats him. Then what does George gain from that?

Like, what does George really gain from that? He beats Robert Whitaker. People say, oh, it's George St. Pierre. One of the greatest well time he beat Robert Whitaker. Robert Whitaker beats George St. Pierre. It's a whole other story. Same thing here. John Jones loses to Tom Aspinall.

It hurts John Jones far more than it, you know. Tom Aspinall is gaining more from that than John Jones is. If John Jones beats Tom Aspinall, you know the narrative. Oh, well, Tom is always a little overrated. and, you know, John was really great as well. But if Tom beats John, it's like, oh, the first guy to ever really beat John Jones, he just beat the goat, he's now, oh, my God, he's it. So it's risk versus reward.

That's why you could totally understand both sides, right? Like, why Tom is begging for it, not begging, but itching for it and doing everything he can to try to get it, and why John kind of shrugs his shoulders at it. Yeah, and I, listen, and I know Dana's kind of like seemed to scoff a little bit about Alex moving up to heavyweight because let's be honest Tom Aspinall is a force of nature man

You don't necessarily want anyone fighting that guy right now 256 shredded Big powerful I love Alex Pereira but that's still a tall order to go in there against a heavyweight like Tom Aspinall Maybe there's, I'm not saying less risk But less risk versus more reward

If he can go out there be John Jones Which to be honest would be a very tall order For Alex Pereira But if he does it Then we're talking about Alex Pere in like all time status like all time he's already a two division champion all time all time but if he loses you just lost to the greatest of all time that doesn't really hurt you that much you go right back to light heavyweight and you fight maga man and coliab you

fight whoever you know what I mean that's the that's the one part that we haven't really talked about either is john gets to pick because he's the one putting everything on the line here too yeah like if john loses like you said no matter who is on the other end if john loses it's I'm the guy that beat John Jones, the greatest of all time. You know what I mean? So like it's a win-win for everybody else. Whereas for John, he can kind of just pick and be like, well, yeah, I want to fight this guy. I want to fight this guy.

You know, which one's going to get me the most excited? Which one's going to be the most fun? And I think for him, Alex is a better, more fun fight than Tom Aspinall, you know? And again, these are all under the assumption they beat Steepay too. Like we can't forget, you know, Stepe is no fun. fucking walkover. Like, I'm going to pick John, too, just like you, but I mean, Stipe's not a walkover and absolutely has all the tools to beat John. And let's also lay down the reality here that John's talking right now. This could all just be talk. He could beat Steve and say, I'm done. Like,

this has been his plan the entire time. He's just not letting us in on the secret right now because he doesn't want to pose this as a retirement fight. But he may have it in the back of his head, just like certain fighters do. Like, he's going to go in there, fight Steepay win, and lay the gloves down the middle of the ring right. I hear he may already have that in his head. We have no idea. So I mean, in that case, in a perfect world for me, uh, John and Steepay fight to a draw. They both retire at the end, raise each other's hands and, you know, a draw in a, uh, a bloody bloodbath of a war. Yeah. Again, but like I said, I just, I know people are kind of turning on John right now and I get it. I get like we all get excited. We're all prisoners of the moment.

And I, I just said, I think Tom Aspinall is the best heavyweight in the sport. but I think you just got to look at what John Jones is fighting for and I think it's the same thing George St. Pierre was fighting for when he came back. He's fighting for a legacy, he's fighting to submit himself as the greatest. He's not trying to be the best heavyweight. He's not trying to be the greatest heavyweight ever. He's trying to be 100% without a doubt the greatest fighter who's ever stepped in that ring or cage or whatever. And I think that's all John cares about right now.

He's not worried about proven to you that he could beat Tom Aspinall. I think that's what he's after. So like we said, we're arguing two different things. we're not arguing. I'm saying, like, for the people out there arguing that he needs to fight time. He doesn't need to fight anybody. He can retire tomorrow and he's still the best of all time. You know?

Like, he doesn't lose that with me. Like, I've said for years, I don't think guys need to jump weight classes to be the greatest of all time. Like, I've never, George St. Pierre didn't need to go to middleweight for me to think he's one of the greatest fighters to ever live. He did. It's cool. But what I remember George St. Pierre for is winning nine consecutive title defenses at Welterweight. I mean, the greatest welterweight of all time. Of course, him beating Bisping and becoming middleweight champion matters,

but that didn't change my opinion of George St. Pierre, like, astronomically, oh, he beat Michael Bisping? Well, of course now he's the greatest ever. Like, that didn't do it for me, you know? No, I'm right there with you. Yeah. And it's just this new standard we got these days, right? Like, everybody wants that double belt and, hey, more power to him, right?

Good, do it. But, yeah, I'm with you. You know, defending your belt at a certain weight class. multiple times is more meaningful in my opinion. It's funny on Saturday night, and I'm using him as an example, but he's certainly not the only one to say things like this. My boy Daniel Cormier, I was watching the post-fight show, and they were talking about should Leon get an automatic rematch with Bilau?

And Dana shot it down, so it's not going to happen. But Daniel Cormey is like, he said something effective. Well, if anyone's going to do it, it's Leon. He's defended that belt a couple times, you know? If you're going to give it an arm, I was like, he's defended the belt. Twice. That's the, that's the mark we're giving now for a long reigning champion. His two title defenses? Like, he's not wrong because nobody sticks around to defend their belt anymore. Like, nobody does it. He's like two title events. Of course he should be in the

running for an automatic rematch. And in my head, like five title defenses, maybe. Or you get like Usman did where he was like, I think four or five defenses in and he was winning a fight and he got caught in the fifth round, got knocked out. Like, I get that. Yowanna was like five defenses in when she got her rematch, but two title defenses? That's the bar we're setting now for getting automatic rematches. That's a long-reaning champion. It's two title defenses. Yeah, I get exactly where you're coming from there. Yeah. The game is changing, right? Like, it's evolving. And I mean, that's the reality of what we're dealing with. I mean, the UFC, it's been changing since day one, truthfully. Right. It's just every time something changes,

everybody's speaking up about it and you know half people hate it have people love it um but i i try to keep optimistic about it i still remember going on the underground back of the day and you know looking up who won or who was fighting and and we were we i remember i don't know how many threads would come up like that man if we ever get on cable tv it's going to be awesome and and we got all those things we wanted and now everybody just wants to complain about it yeah very selfish very So, yeah, I remember when we had six events a year, you had to wait two months for a UFC event. Yeah. Yeah, I agree.

Which was cool, too. That, you know, it was, but we got, we got to live through those times. We got to see the rise of the sport. It's been a great thing and it's really cool. But I try to remember that when I start complaining about, you know, things like, like what we're talking about. It's like, the sport's changing, you know, and guys are, social media has changed the game immensely. you know that's what everybody wants to be social media famous now and they fucking should be yeah everybody everybody hates on that and i'm like i'm like dude magnify your fucking brand blow that thing up like

that you can make an entire living doing that like like fuck all the haters bro go on there and make and to be and to be fair it's hard man it's not easy getting that like building that audience because like dude on my side gig i do a horror movie podcast and i started doing tikt and I do horror movie reviews. And I'm like, I'm, like, I'm, like, I'm, like, 350 followers over there right now. And I've been hard at work doing this, post the videos. It's just, dude, it's, like, when people say influencers have it easy, I mean, I'm not saying they're, you know, they're breaking their backs, you know, digging ditches for a living.

It's not like, you know, that. But it's not easy to gain an audience. So you could put out every, you can put out videos every single day for the rest of your life. Doesn't mean people are going to care about it. So, I'll say what, I think it used to be easy. I think there was a time when it was easier. But if you look now, I mean, these people are putting so much work.

I know some really high-level influencers. And these guys put so much work and so much behind the scenes in their pre-production, their post-production. I mean, it's very professional now. It's not, there are those guys that just whip out their iPhones, talk some shit or have some fun or whatever. But that's becoming fewer and fewer. Now it's real production, you know, a lot of investment, a lot of. of time. It's a full-time job now. Yeah, it is. It really is. So, yeah, it's not as easy as just saying I'm going to be on social

media and get an audience. Well, you got to get people to care. And that's harder than you would imagine. Trust me. I said, I give a lot of credit to guys like Sean O'Malley, who took advantage of it, built his audience, went on Twitch, did all those things. And now he's got this massive fan base built around him as a person. Of course, the UFC plays a massive part in that. But, you know, he's built a brand around Sugar, Sean O'Malley. And people care about Sugar Sean O'Malley. And I guarantee. he worked his ass off of that. Nothing got handed to him with that. He had to start his Twitch page. He had to build his social presence. He had to, I remember I talked to one time he was doing like a limited release on clothing and stuff like little things like that. Like he's not a dumb, he's not a dumb guy. Like he has a very business savvy sense to it. Like there's, it's not easy. Dude, everyone wants to be Connor, but you don't just get to be Connor. You have to work at Connor had to work out of. Connor didn't do anything for free. Like Connor worked at it. I'm not saying Connor's the best example ever, but people, you know, Connor had to get an audience.

People don't just care about him because he's a loudmouth. There's lots of loud mouths. People care because they gravitated towards Connor. It's not easy. Trust me. There's plenty of guys. I've interviewed plenty of guys who have great voices. They're well-spoken.

Super intelligent. People just don't grab onto it. You know what I mean? Look at Leon Edwards. Leon Edwards, great champion, incredible fighter. Every time I talk to Leon's, super nice guy. intelligent, but when the fights over, Leon just kind of disappears. He doesn't want the social media stuff.

He's not on social media. He's not making videos. He just wants to live his life. And I'm totally fine with that. But he's not the guy who people are going to be like clamoring to see fight, you know, because they just, he's out of sight out of mind. That's just who he is. That's fine. Some guys are built different. Sean O'Malley. He's always online. He's always building the presence. He's podcast. When he's not fighting, he's doing the Sugar Timbo show. he's doing Twitch, he's doing fucking appearances,

he's all over the place because this guy's building the brand, so when he retires, he's going to have multi, multi-millions in the bank. Like, that's what he wants to do. Good for him. Yeah, yeah. As I was saying,

it's just not as easy as it seems. But, yeah, that's what the UFC is for. Build your brand, magnify your brand, get out there in front of a lot of faces, get a lot of fans, make some money,

and go chill, on your fucking yacht like Connor. Exactly, exactly. And whatever else he's doing. Yeah, whatever you want to do. Before we get out of here, I had to bring this subject up to you, Matt, because you're a fighter and you've been in the UFC.

You spent so many years in the UFC, so you know Dana, you know Sean Shelby really well. I don't know how well you know McMainer, but you knew Joe Silver really well when he was there. I'm sure you saw the story over the weekend. Mohamed McCoyev prior to his fight with Manel Cop, they were at the fighter hotel he asked him inel cop to come over

and take a photo together for Islam they're both Muslims he's like let's take a photo together for the Muslim community they took the photo Muhammad turns around and punches Manel cop sucker punched him openly admitted it I sucker punched him they did have an incident at the PI

where they got into it and Manel apparently cut him open with an elbow or something before security got interviewed whatever but Makayev openly admitted I suck punch Manal Cop before the fight. Then they get to the fight itself. They're all fired up, securities, keeping them apart.

Like, dude, you guys are in a fight in like five seconds. Calm down. Fight starts. Nothing happens. It was a whole lot of nothing for 15 minutes outside of a couple take down attempts and a couple good shots from a Nel Cobb. It was like the weird, like everything that could have gone wrong for that fight went wrong.

And afterwards, Dana White said, we're done. We're out of the Muhammad Makaya business. PFL just got themselves a great undefeated guy. he's like there's other issues behind the scenes but we're done we're out of the Bahama Kamakaya business we're not resigning him he's gone they didn't release him he was out of contract and they're just like we're not going to resign him best of luck to you whatever you do next now I've heard two sides to this argument this is why I want you to weigh in on Matt because again you've been there you know the matchmakers you know how

the UFC operates one side saying man you're giving up on a 23 year old prospect young kid good up and comer who is potentially in a number one contenders fight I've seen the other side saying that Ma'a'a, Makaya, what are we really losing here? Maciah is not that exciting. He's not really been dominant. He's not really showing a ton of growth. And if he's doing this other stuff behind the scenes,

whether, you know, Dana didn't get specific. Maybe it was like turning down fights. Maybe it was getting like giving the matchmakers a hard time about timing. You know how that goes. Like I don't want to fight on this day. I don't want to fight on this date. I don't want to fight this guy. I want to fight this guy.

Whatever the case may be. And I don't know that's what happened. I'm just saying like these are behind the things, behind the scenes, things that do happen. and then the fight in the hotel, which I don't care how you paint it. It's a dirty, cowardly act to punch a guy when you ask him for a photo,

put your arm around and then punch him. Matt, what do you think about the UFC basically cutting ties with Muhammad Makaya after this weekend? Well, I didn't even hear about that story about him punching him. Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, I'd probably cut him too, to be honest.

I mean, yeah. It is surprising that they would do that. Again, you know, being that his ceiling is pretty freaking high. I mean, I've watched a fight before. The dude has a really high ceiling. And a young guy with a lot of skills, a lot of talent. But, I mean, when you're up and coming like that, you can't just do that. I think the UFC's kind of shown that before.

Like, when you're an up-and-comer, you can't be, you know, ruffling too many feathers. I mean, obviously like some, right? but you can't be doing stupid shit like that. Once you're John Jones, you're putting all those asses in the seats, yeah, you get away with some shit. Like you're, because you're in business with the UFC, right?

You're a partner with them, essentially. Whereas, like, how many people tune in to watch Muhammad Makayev? When he goes and fights in PFL, how many people are going to tune in to watch Muhammad Mikhail? Right. So there are double standards or triple standards or whatever. there is different standards for every fighter he's not at that level to be getting away with shit like that

and like you said I mean it was I don't know the story but that sounds like a cowardly bitch move and I wouldn't want to be in business with someone like that either and I don't I don't even know like I do like I think it's a cowardly act to just like and again I understand there was personal beef I understand they got into it to PI but to take a photo with the dude and then just punch him like you're openly like this is not an accusation like after the fight he just openly admitted yeah I did it I asked him for a photo and then punched him that's that's like but I don't even know that's really what did it like Dana did make it sound like he said like that was just more of issues we had but he's like there's other stuff behind the scenes the matchmakers just don't like the guy we're just not going to be in business with him anymore and again I don't know what that entails does that entail I don't want to

to fight here. I only want to fight here. I only want to fight on this date. Because you know, Matt, when you're up and coming, like, the worst thing, for better or worse, and you know this, the worst thing you can say to the UFC is no. When they call you and say, hey man, we got to fight a date, you know, opponent. And it's not like a short notice thing. And it's not like, you know, you got to fight in a week's notice. I'm saying like a normal, like three months from now, we got a card, an opponent, and a date. What do you say? And you know how it is. When you're young in the UFC, the answer needs to be yes. because they're going to depend on you. When you start saying no or, well, let me think about it

or give me a couple weeks, the matchmakers are going to move on pretty quickly. And again, I don't know that's what happened. They also know that, especially a talented guy like him, they know, okay, when he does get bigger, wins a title or something, they can't rely on you. They don't know you're a loose cannon. What are you going to do then?

Like all of these things when you're up and coming, the UFC knows this, when these up-and-coming fighters, when you get a belt and you start making money, start getting some power, like it just magnifies even more, all that shit you started when you were young and up-and-coming. Like, it's just going to get bigger and worse for them. So, of course, why would they want to be in business with someone like that? You made a great point also about, you know, I know people hate hearing this, but it's the absolute truth. The UFC, when there's bad behavior, and listen, I'm not saying,

and Muhammad, Mackayah's a bad guy. I've talked to Muhammad. He's always been a really nice guy to me. I don't like what he did to Manel Cobb. That, to me, is some cowardly shit. But outside of that, I've always liked Muhammad. Always been an incredibly nice guy, well-spoken, super determined, talented. I think he's talented.

But whatever's going on behind the scenes ruffled a lot of feathers clearly, and they just don't want to be in business with him anymore. But you made a great point. And you said, when you're John Jones, you get away with it. When you're John Jones and you just became light heavyweight champion, you destroyed Shogun Hua, you're on top of the world, and you get a DUI, you're playing by a different set of rules than the, then the 2-0 guy on the prospects who hits a car, runs away, and, you know,

and does it hit and run, they're not, they're not, they're not going to stand by you. They're not, you're not worth the trouble. You know what I mean? Like, I understand, like, I understand. Like, I understand people are saying, oh, well, the UFC is the promoter. They're the one that is building you up. Like they're giving you the opportunity to build yourself up. So why would they give that opportunity?

Someone that's causing trouble when they're young. I mean, we've seen it a few times. A couple of cases come to mind right away where they've cut guys that had a lot of talent when they were young for, you know, not necessarily things that you would expect them to be cut for. Yeah, I mean, listen, if you're Connor, if you're, I mean, you know, the bus incident, If that's just some prelim fighter who goes after a fighter on a bus and starts chucking dollies at the bus, that dude's going to be cut faster than his.

He's not going to get to the police station and he's already going to be out of the job. Like they're going to be like, you're gone. Like immediately. They're going to arrest him. He's going to get to the police station. Who's your one call? Well, I just let you know. The UFC just called us.

They said you're released before we get started here on your arraignment. Let's just like that's how quick it would happen. But it doesn't happen when you're Connor McGregor. Because he's Connor McGreg. I'm not saying that like I understand everyone's going to. say there shouldn't be two rules. There are. And it's that way across all sports.

Do you legitimately think that some backup quarterback in the NFL doesn't get less consideration than Patrick Mahomes or Aaron Rogers or NBA? If you're LeBron James or Steph Curry, do you not get a little bit more consideration than the guy who's sitting on the bench? Thankfully, guys like LeBron don't get arrested. It's literally like any other. business like you provide enough value you get away with more you know it's it's what it's all about right like if you provide enough value then they're going to give you more leeway on things and and you know

some guys know that and take advantage of it some guys you know kind of remember where they came from and you know all that kind of uey-gooey stuff but you said this like when you were talking about your when you were coming towards the telling to your career and you would talk to sean shelby Like you had a good relationship with Sean Shelby. You built that up over years. Like when Sean Shelby called and said, hey, you know, we're thinking about this. You told, like you said, you know, conversation, you talked. You would call Sean Shelby.

He would call you. But whatever. You had a, you built that relationship with Sean Shelby over, what, 15, 16 years, whatever it was. Like that, he had that relate. He knew. And if you said, hey, man, I just, I remember you tell me after the court McGee fight, I think you said you either told them, or I know you told me he said, you didn't want to fight

during the summers. Your kids were home. You wanted to spend time with your kids so you weren't planning on fighting until like the end of the year. And guess what? You're Matt Brown. You have the most welterweight knockouts of welterweight history. You've been in the sport for, you've been in the UFC for 15 years. You have a huge rapport with them. Okay, cool. Take your time. Just call us when you're ready. You built that rapport.

Mahama Mikhail is 7 and 0. Apparently, there's some other stuff going on behind the scenes that the UFC didn't like. You don't have that rapport yet to cause trouble and for them to say, oh, Sure, no problem, man. You're good to go. That's, and I'm just, I'm pointing that out because like it or not, what Matt Brown, the conversation you could have with Sean Shelby, after 15 years of a relationship,

is different than Muhammad Mikhailov can say after two years in the UFC in seven fights. That's the reality. That's what it is, yeah. And, yeah, apparently he wasn't into building the relationship is what I'm guessing, you know, or hadn't built any relationship with them. and yeah it kind of sucks for him but uh you know it sounds deserved i don't know the whole story i don't understand anything but from what i do know i mean it sounds deserved you sucker punch people and you know and especially in that manner i mean come on like asking

for a picture and like suck them into your being nice and stuff and a sucker punch him i mean this is dirty man so i don't really have any sympathy in in that case if that if that is is the whole story, which he apparently admitted to also. He did admit to. Yeah, that's why I was like shocked. He openly admitted. Like, yes, I asked him for a photo and then I punched him. I'm like, dude, do you realize what you're saying?

Like, do you realize like you're just condit? It's like saying, yeah, it's like the, uh, remember that that Chappelle show skit with, uh, with Charlie Murphy with the whole Rick James thing? And he goes, he was, I wasn't just crazy and go and put my feet up on Eddie Murphy's couch and grind my feet in the couch. Yeah, I remember grinding my feet and Eddie Murphy's. He's like totally conjured to every. He totally contradicts himself when they rewinded the video and he's like, I would never do that.

Yeah, I remember grinding my feet and Eddie Burm's couch. Like, what? You just admitted to doing it. Yeah, and the reality is I like Mohameda Makayev, incredibly talented young kid. But as you said, these issues persist and he's suddenly the number one contender or a champion. It's a lot harder to get rid of him at that point versus right now. Do I think they're losing a super talented fighter with the championship potential? I do, but I just use the word potential.

We don't know yet with Mohama Makayev. They're not doing this to Alashondri Pantoja, the current champion. They're not doing this to Leon Edwards. They're not doing this to even like, I got like Hamzaa Chamaev, who's clearly had some issues and not been able to fight and all these different things, but he's a star. He's a big star. He has a little bit more leeway than Muhammad Mikhail does.

That's just, I don't care that. I know you, I'm not saying it as an. opinion. I'm saying it as a fact. They look at fighters in different lights. Hamzaa Chamaev is held a different regard than Mohammed Makaev. Current champions. John Jones, you said, look at all the press. Yes, John Jones has been huge problems, but he's John Jones. And he didn't start doing these things until he was already an established superstar, you know? So, Muhammad Mikhail throws that dust, throws that moving Dali into a bus. Like I said, he's gone before he gets to police station. Connor McGregor, though, we'll condemn his actions.

We'll say it was the worst day in UFC history than three months later. We're showing that video to promote a fight. Big difference. Yeah, yeah, it's great PR. They don't get to use Makayev's little thing, little incident for PR. So it doesn't benefit them one bit. Yeah. And, you know, like I said, I just, I don't want to harp on it too much.

I just, again, I do feel for him in a certain regard. I don't fill for him for the sucker punch thing. That's low. I don't like that at all. Like, you're a fighter. Like, you're a professional fighter. Do you really need to sucker punch somebody? Like, throw down.

You want to throw down? First off, throw down in the cage where you're getting paid for. That's what you do for a living. You're literally going to fight him two days later. Why are you trying to fight him in the hotel? But then to sucker punch a dude? Like, no. Who does that?

Like, who does that? I don't even understand that. That's just odd altogether. Like, if you sucker punch a guy? is isn't that kind of like saying like you think you're going to lose like in a way like if you have to sucker punch a guy aren't you just basically saying like I know I can't beat you so I have to catch you off guard right right you know like if you're a professional fighter like dude like I'm not saying you should get street fights but I'm assuming if you wanted to fight it if you wanted to fight a guy Matt Brown you'd be like let's go you're not going to just be like hey man look over there and then fucking club with an elbow like for sure and you know the last thing I'll say on that is as hard as the UFC can be on you know up and comers like that, they're also very forgiving. Like I've seen a lot of guys do a lot of fucked up shit, get cut, get in trouble, get reprimanded, and they still come back and it was like it never happened.

Yeah. Yeah. We've seen that many times. Like, they can be forgiving. You know, it's not the end of the world for Mohammed McKayev. He says, what, 23 years old? 23, yeah. A few years of him going out and dominating, builds a fan base, you know, wins a lot of fight.

and look, don't think they won't bring him back. This could be the best thing that ever happened to Muhammad Ka. You never know. Maybe this is the lesson he needs, like, to grow up. He's like, oh, shit, like, look what just happened. Like, now I need to, like, mature. Maybe that's it. Maybe this is the moment where he's like, uh-oh, I messed up.

I need to change my act. And guess what? Maybe he goes out, wins five or six fights, matures, comes back, says, you know, whatever the problems were before, he's like, I'm not going to be that guy anymore. I'm not that guy anymore. they'll bring and you're right you're absolutely and like I said maybe that's just he just needs time to grow up and hopefully I like I said I don't wish ill will upon the guy like the guy I've always liked the guy he's a talented kid again I don't like what he did but I mean that's a sport man and

and like I said I don't know what the reasons are there were clearly more reasons than just what we're being told but the UFC doesn't just let a guy go for no reason like that like they're not that's not a prospect like that no you can say that about a guy who's on you I mean dude like I said I know it's a totally different instance but like Tony Ferguson's about to fight Michael Kiesa this weekend he's had seven straight losses any other any other fighter on earth wouldn't have made it to seven straight losses but Tony Ferguson has been a freaking well yeah yeah they let him they let him stick around for quite a while but also to Sam's credit Sam stepped up they called him say hey man we need a short notice fight at light heavyweight

I'll take it. We need a short-nose fight middleweight. I'll take it. He did things for them, so they kind of repaid the favor and let him fight out of his contract. But like I said, you know, this weekend,

Tony Ferguson is on seven straight loss in a row. But look what Tony Ferguson meant to that organization, stepping up, did things, fought fights, legend, top lightweight for a long to one of the top lightweight store for a long time. He earned that chance to come back.

For better or worse, BJ Penn, same kind of situation. I don't like the BJ fought as long as he did, but I understand they're like, okay, we're going to give you one more chance, BJ. Like we got, you know, you've been around, you've been, you know, you're a huge part of the sport.

We're going to give you that one more chance. I know it's different in those instances. I'm saying, like, that's the rapport you build. When you build that rapport, the UFC is going to give you more leeway. When you're 7 and 0, 23 and you're causing problems for whatever problems they were, they're just not going to, they're not going to stick by you and say, oh, dude, no problem. No, no big deal, man. Come on back.

Here's a new four-fight deal with paying you $100K and $100K. Come on back. No. they're not going to do that. Yeah, like I said, I totally expect him to go out and do some big things outside of the UFC, and I think he'll be back. Yeah, I agree. All right.

I think it'll get his shit together. And again, I think maybe that's the lesson he needed. Maybe that, you know how that goes. Sometimes guys need that, like, wake-up call. Like, oh, shit. Like, maybe I was fucking around. I should have been doing that. Or maybe I shouldn't sucker punch a guy and then openly admit to it afterwards.

Like, oh, yeah, I totally did that. Like, what? Yeah, at least he'll at least come back a better liar. Yeah, at least figure out that you should say, oh, no, we just kind of got into it. No, you openly say, yeah, I asked him for a photo, and then when he turned around, I punched him. That's probably not the way to go. Yeah, so, all right. Obviously, this weekend, UFC Abu Dhabi, your guy, Corey Sanhagan, fight new Martin or Magamette.

That's a great fight coming up this weekend. Tony Ferguson, I mentioned fighting Michael Kiesis. So we'll have some follow for that. Your guy, Terrence Crawford's fighting on Saturday as well. So, a little boxing action going on. I don't know. Does Terence have any chance to lose in this fight? I'm assuming not.

I'm not even sure who he's fighting. So no, he doesn't. I just haven't been following hardly anything lately. I've been grinding on my gym and my own personal stuff. To be honest, I just haven't been in a loop much lately, but I'll get back after it.

And promotion, do you want to promote what's going on this weekend? Anyone that happens to be listening to podcasts that's in the Ohio area? Yeah, well, we have a re-grand opening happening at my gym, a huge event. I'm actually surprised at how big it is. I mean, we, you know, we were going to provide food for everyone. And so we're kind of tracking how many people are going to be there.

We expect to be there. And originally we catered for about 100 people or so. And we're already over 250 people. So I'm like, this is going like, should we have catered food for all these people? Like is everybody, is everybody just coming for a free meal or what's going on? So, but it's also a little retirement party for me. So, which I don't even know if it's really going to be a retirement party for me, but it's be more, you know, just a regrant opening for the gym promotion.

And Rich Franklin should be there. Hopefully Coleman's able to come out. He's, you know, having some troubles with his hips. And hopefully Dorian Price will be there. You know, just a lot of my old guys, you know. So it's going to be a great time. And we're just grind away on it. So, yeah, I'm looking forward to it.

Immortal martial arts center this Saturday. Check it out. Obviously, I want to support the gym. And anything else before we get out of here where people can check you out and support what you're doing, Matt? Yeah, check me out on Instagram, Twitter. At I am the Immortal, Facebook, Matt the Immortal, or the Immortal Matt Brown, I'm sorry.

And, you know, all the social media shit. I guess I'm on TikTok too. I don't know what my tag is, though. But I post my guitar shit on there a lot. You're not passing the test as being a new influencer, Matt. That's what I'm saying? What is my tag on there? I got to see you.

Now we're thinking about it. I'm like, I don't even know what my profile name is on there. Every time I pull up TikTok, it's a, this Hawk toa girl video. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, I am the Immortal on there too. Yep, cool. Yeah.

There you go. I love the Hawk to a Girl. girl. Talk to a girl. That, that, that, that is proof right there

that anything can make you famous. That literally anything can make you famous. It really surprised me that they ran with it so much, but it's,

I mean, she's such a good girl and she's got a great personality. It's kind of cool. Like, I think it's great for her, but it's hilarious.

It's hilarious to me. I'm just like, dude, that's shocking. Yeah. Like, yeah. Remember,

what was that one girl? Remember the few years ago, the Kesmey outside girl, remember her? Oh, yeah. And she became like, she got actually famous. Like she actually, I don't know what she does.

Like she became a rapper or whatever. Only fans, whatever, making money. But that lasted more than 15 minutes. So, you know, that's all based on whatever, Dr. Phil or whatever she was on. Like this girl, the Hoc-Tua girl, it's hilarious because it's a thing now. If you say Hock-Tua, you know exactly what you're talking about. But the difference is the, what was it, the Cash Me Outside girl. she was kind of bound for only fans right like that was you kind of knew that was the path that

she was going to take this girl's like the sweetest little america sweetheart ever you know and it's really cool i think yeah she's for tennessee and yeah it's just i mean like dude i'm never going to fall to anyone for making money man good for you uh it's just hilarious like you know she was at the jake paul fight and like i'm just like this is so wild like dude like and take it run with it man 15 minutes of fame like she i think she said she worked at like a factory or something before this. I think it's like, dude, good for you. Like, good for you, man.

Like, awesome. It's just hilarious. Like, the Hoctua girl. Yeah, it's wild. When I was down in Texas, I went on the beach. I posted up on Instagram. And I mean, it was basically like Walmart on the beach, right? Like, there's just Trump flags everywhere, fat dudes with their bellies hanging out,

like you saggy titties everywhere. And I've seen Hock Tudu flags all down this thing. I was like, dude, if she's getting. getting any royalties like she's freaking killing it so she's gonna be a big trademarked that i'm sure she did she's going to be the grand reopening on saturday hoctua immortal martial arts i don't think i can afford her now unfortunately that's you'll officially change the name it's now the big grand reopening is immortal martial arts and is now the hawk tua martial arts center starting this week yeah there we go it'd probably bring a lot of guys in yeah you might you might guess a new sign-ups

All right. As I always want to say, big thank you to everyone to tunes in. Make sure you check us out on all your favorite podcast platforms, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and of course over on the best website in the world, MMAFighting.com. For Matt Brown, I'm Damon. We'll see you next week for another edition of the Fighter versus the Rider. Thanks for tuning in, and we'll see you then.