MMA Fighting - Fighter vs. Writer: Frank Trigg On Working ‘Book of Boba Fett’ and Why More Fighters Don’t Become Judges or Referees

Episode Date: February 1, 2022

UFC Hall of Famer Frank Trigg joins the latest episode of The Fighter vs. The Writer as he discusses his move into acting as well as refereeing since calling it a career. Most recently, Trigg can be seen in the popular Disney+ series “The Book of Boba Fett” where he stars alongside Temuera Morrison and Ming-Na Wen in a show that follows the exploits of the infamous bounty hunter in a new “Star Wars” spinoff. Trigg details how he got involved with the show as well as the success he’s found since transitioning into stunt work since his retirement from fighting. The former UFC welterweight title contender will also discuss how he got involved in refereeing in the state of California where he was recently spotted as the third man in the octagon at UFC 270 in Anaheim. Trigg also explains why it’s not likely that more fighters will follow in his footsteps to get into refereeing or judging in mixed martial arts. All this and much more on the latest edition of The Fighter vs. The Writer. Subscribe: Apple Podcasts Subscribe: Spotify Read More: MMA Fighting Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Black Friday is here at IKEA and the clock is ticking on savings you won't want to miss. Join IKEA family for free today and unlock deals on everything from holiday must-haves to cozy at-home essentials, all the little and big things you need to make this season shine. But don't wait. Like leftovers at midnight, our Black Friday offers won't last. Shop now at IKEA.ca.ca.com slash Black Friday. IKEA, bring home to life. Welcome aboard Air Canada. Rocky's vacation here we come.

Whoa, is this economy? Free beer, wine, and snacks. Sweet. Fast free Wi-Fi means I can make dinner reservations before we land. And with live TV, I'm not missing the game. It's kind of like I'm already on vacation. Nice. Air Canada.

Nice travels. Wi-Fi available to Aero Pembers on equipped flights Sponsored by Bell. Conditions apply. See Air Canada.com. You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. Welcome back to the Fighter versus the Rider. I'm Damon, your host, as always. And today I'm joined by a man who is partially responsible

for actually giving me a career in mixed martial arts. Going back many, many years, one of my first interactions with a fighter was what I used to call in to Ryan Bennett's MMA weekly radio show called Soundoff. and he was having a co-s competition once upon a time, and I was one of the finalists. And the other guy who was another finalist

who ended up winning the competition, for obvious reasons, is my guest today, and a guy who kind of introduced me to the world of mixed martial arts media through that contest, and then from there, I ended up working with MMA weekly

and gone on and done stuff since then. So today, I am very happy to welcome him a good friend, UFC Hall of Famer, legend in his own right. Frank Trigg. Trigg, what's going on? Hey, man, you were to find your own way to MECD. It had to do with me. I just had to be that one thing, but it wasn't that thing.

You would have found your way there easy. I mean, look how good you are. Look how long you've been with it. It's so crazy. It's so crazy thinking back about, like, in those days when there was no job in MMA, like, you were not getting paid to cover the sport. You were just doing it because you loved the sport. But I remember calling in to Ryan's show, and, like, when he did that Coase contest,

like it was just so much fun. Like, I had no intention of it being a career at that point. I just loved a sport. Yeah. Yeah. isn't it how it's supposed to be, though? I'm just supposed to be doing something for your job that you love. Exactly.

Like, for everyone it talks about, oh, I'm doing this job, but I can't stand it. Like, what are you doing? Yeah. At least to us, it doesn't make any sense. You do what you love. And what we love is amazing, so we're around it all the time, you know? Yeah, yeah, that was, to this day, and I mean, no offense to anyone out there doing their thing. A lot of people do great podcasts, of course.

My co-worker, Ariel Hawani, hosts a phenomenal show in his own right. but I think what you and what you and Ryan did with Soundaw back in the day like you guys set the gold standard for what would become you know the podcasting industry at the time was just called radio but you know I like so you guys had some of the wildest shows like I still tell people the story about like Joe Silva calling into the show or like the Nick Diaz Joe Riggs hospital story they're both calling in and like these are things let's be honest these things would never happen today in like 2022 and the fight industry right that would never happen today

but back then, it was such a special time. It's a little weird. Like, I think a lot of the stuff still would have happened. I mean, because now you have, you know, Conn McGregor and the Kobe Coventons. And so it's in the Mazel dolls, they're still kind of doing that same kind of set. Like, then you see this thing with Mazeldoll,

I don't know what it was, but I saw it for the first time I saw it a week ago. It could have been five years ago. I don't know because I don't pay attention. But you're like, some guy was taunting him in the crowd the whole night. He was in an event. He was at a final. event and the guy get taunting him and finally

Miles was about to turn up, wanted to fight the guy. You're like, the stuff still goes on. There's still that angst within MMA that goes on. It's just, it's out before it hits the podcast. Like, and now it's like, because of like TikTok and Twitter and Instagram and Facebook, we have it right now. Like, I watched Don Farah, I pushed that guy in the mouth.

I was sitting right there when it happened. I was just having to be turned around. I was in my seat. I turned around. I looked. And like, I think, down Friday. Oh, yeah, they did he push it on them up. And by the time I got, by time the event was over, and by time I was driving home, my wife

who was a timekeeper that night was like, hey, did you see down five? She just got out. She said, oh, it's already on social media. So, like, people have filmed that already put it up. So, like, now it's the gratification is very much quicker as opposed to when you had to be there before. Like, you had to be there. When Riggs and Diaz went after it, you had to be there.

Otherwise, you didn't know about it. Like, you didn't know about it for like a month or a half. And so everything's kind of changed, but a lot of that stuff still goes down. A lot of stuff is still that craziness is still a part of the sport. It's just kind of, you know, it's kind of how the sport came about and it's still there. I'll never forget when I first started working with Ryan and the crew back in the day. They didn't, they didn't air the prelims. Like the prelims were not, you could not see them.

You had to be there to get the results. And so I was updating the website on May Weekly at the time. And I updated the prelims. And then me and my friends went out to like, like, you know, beat up. W3s or something to watch the event and they ended up showing one of the prelims on the pay-per-view and so like we had these guys around us and they're like, does anyone want to bet on the fights? Well, I already knew who won the fight. So I bet the guys our dinner because I already knew the result. And of course I was right. They bought our dinner. I kind of felt bad for a minute,

but I was like, all right, well, if you guys want to bet, I was like, I already know this, I already know who won. But like, back in the day, they didn't say that. They didn't say this fight happened earlier in the night. They're like, next fight up. And it was like one of the prelims. So I was like, uh, you guys want to bet on this fight? sure, let's bet on that fight. And that, you know, to be honest with you, you'd never feel bad about being a guy at their own game. Because that guy was like, he was into the sport.

He knew everything. He knew everybody. He knew how that fight was going to go. And you're like, yeah, but I didn't know the results. So I'm just going to, all right. Thanks for my $55 meal. I appreciate you. Yeah, I got a free dinner that night.

Got a free dinner that night. So, Trigg, you're always so busy. And it's funny because, you know, when we get, like, in social media world, like, you see what people are doing. And you and I are actually friends on Facebook. So I see your post pop up. So it feels like I'm staying in better touch with you than I am, which I probably should stay in better contact than I do.

But I see what you've got going on and all the things you're doing. And recently a show that I'm watching and actually recapping and I love watching the book of Bobafet, the Star Wars spinoff. And I saw you posting on Facebook about, you know, doing some stuff. And then I watched the credits in the show. And there it is, Frank Trigg. So I know you've been doing stunt work. You've been doing a lot of acting stuff, you know, in the last few years.

How did the book of Buffalo How did the Book of Buffett come along? JJ Dashnaw. The Dashnaw family is very big in the stunt community. Their father, Jeff, and then all the kids are all stunt coordinators and stunt men. You've seen them, any action. If you've watched an action film,

you've seen one of Dashnail boys work. The most famous one is probably JJ when he went down in Lone Survivor, that big hillfall. Oh, yeah. All the guys are gone on a hill, and the one guy that smacks his back on a tree and goes out, hits the tree backwards. and Bose, scorpions around

where his feet touch the back of his head and wraps around without staging. Like that's his gig. We've been friends for a while. We worked together on a couple different shows, NCSLA being one of them with Troy Brown. And he just called me. It was like, hey, I need a big, thick, strong guy

that can play this character. I can't have you take off to go judge. I can't take off to go a ref. I need you for 10 months. I got to have you in town for 10 months because it's a run. It's called being on a run of the show. So from the very beginning and the very end,

I'm on the show. So I was like, yeah, I'm totally available. And then went for the fittings and went to legacy and got the helmet put together and got the suit put together and got measured. And then all of some are just on the show. It's just honestly, it's like in the stunt world and in the acting world, in entertainment, you can be one of the best actors. I can't even tell you how many people I've talked to that have come out like Juilliard in New York City. And they're like, oh yeah, this person is like the best actor of ever seen my entire life. They're amazing.

And they're like off, off, off, off, off Broadway. in the alley doing a one-man show on some skit because they didn't get the right opportunity or the right timing. I just had to be in the right spot, the right time, man, I was my phone right, and that's what I got on the show.

To be all, honestly, that is it. There are a bunch of guys are just as good as me, if not better, as stuntmen. There are a bunch of guys are as good as me, if not better, as actors that just didn't get the phone call. I got the phone call.

I was available. I passed through production. They liked what they saw, and they brought me in. And that's basically what happened. And that is really it. Now, once you get there, you got to do the job,

obviously. You got to be able to be able to hang on and do everything. But it's, I would love to say, oh, it was this whole, I went to American Idol and I sang my ass off and I went through the voice and I got through and I made the final two. And it was me and this other guy. We made the cut, we're the Gormorians, but that's not how it worked. We got the phone call. I got the phone call. I got brought in and I did my job. And that's really, that's honestly how it is. And I was so grateful that JJ Dashnell called me. I am so grateful he gave me that call because my friends work on the show. I'm a huge Star Wars fan. I grew up on. this is a very big deal for me to be on the show. You don't understand. For me personally, it's a huge deal to be a part of the Star Wars universe. And I'm working on trying to be, I'm trying to get a part in the Marvel universe now as well, to be able to hit that mark. And when you get on these shows, you got to be able to show that you can do the job too. And so when I got there, I did the job.

And because of that, my name gets out a little bit, and people want to hire me now. And now the show is airing. And don't give me the spoilers because I haven't seen episode five yet. I'm still, Jill and I wait until at night we have dinner. We watch it at night where Colin Himes, she plays the other Gimorian, watches it at midnight when it drops on the West Coast. Because we both live in L.A., so when it drops here at midnight, he has a party at his house every Wednesday morning at midnight,

and they sit down there watching it go through it. So he's already told me, like, what he thought of the episode, I'll watch it tonight, and then actually pretty much you get off this, I'm a cook dinner, and then we'll sit down and watch it. So it's like, it's one of those deals, but it's also like you get in there, you're like, this is kind of surreal, man. Like, oh, I remember that take. Oh, that was take five.

Oh, I get it. I get where Robert Rubius is going with this. I get where Faluny. I get where Farrah was going with this now. Because he used the fifth take, not the seventh take. I totally understand it. I see where they're going and kind of get that familiarity with it. So, yeah, it's pretty cool because it's still kind of surreal,

even though we're down and wrapped and we stopped filming back in May, and now we're just watching the show. I'm still like, I'm going to book a boyfriend. That's kind of cool. For a lot of people that don't know, like one thing I love about Star Wars, and I love about what John Favro did with the Mandalorian, and I assume they're doing a lot of the same on the Book of Bobavit is they use a lot of practical effects.

They're not doing a ton of CGI. And, of course, you're doing explosions and, you know, you're doing some, like, you know, flying and things. You're not actually flying. But, like, they do a lot of practical effects with the creatures. That was kind of coming from the George Lucas school early in the Star Wars days. So when I saw your credits, that, like, for anyone that, like, you're in the suit. Like, that's not you just acting in, like, you know, the green screen.

That's you in a suit. I'm in that. It was in that suit. I'd get two set usually about, so the normal day, 5.30, 5 o'clock, alarm goes off. I get up. I make coffee from a wife and I put hers in the refrigerator because she likes ice coffee. I take mine hot. I packed my bag, my stunt kit, make sure I got everything I need for my stunts for that day, whatever entails. Get on my body. I'm usually out the door by about 6, 615. You don't have a little stretch, little, you know, little aerobics in the house. And then, I go drive down to the studio. I'm usually there about 6.30, 6.45, eat at a little breakfast. Call times at 7. I'm in that suit by 7.20, 7.30 in the morning. And I'm in that suit until 8 o'clock, 8.30 at night. I'm in that swamp suit.

There's just in it. There's no way out of it. Just like I got to eat. I understand why in England back in the turn of the century that they had all these ballots that were in there helping people get dressed, the wealthy get dressed. because I had four ballots every day helping me get dressed, every single day. There was four of the people in that room getting me dressed.

I'd be in my spandex and my rash guard underneath the suit, and they'd have to put me in the suit. And it was an ordeal. Every time I have to get in it, I have to help me get out of it. And it was a long thing. And when you say being in the suit, we are in that damn suit. And it is hot. And these things have no air.

And look, we're begging for breaks. And it's like, it's miserable. But then you remember at the end of the day, you don't book a bum of fat shut up oh yeah I'm gonna put him out yeah this is really hot

I won't think of both it really cares like it doesn't matter like there's literally I can name like 10 guys at the top of my head they want to be in that suit right

they want to be in that seat with me complaining and you know being outside and we're not back lots we're outside in the sun and the walls are high because you have to keep it so it all matches

and you got blue screens and grease screens and all those stuff going on and there's no wind and you're in the suit in the sun and you're just like okay and there's

there's photos of me with holding an umbrella sitting on an apple box drinking through a straw with my helmet on with this big long-ass straw so it goes through the mouth so I can get it into my mouth and I'm sitting there with a little girlie parasol and it's funny as hell but it's like oh yeah I remember that day

it was 75 degrees outside but no wind it was like 95 degrees inside the suit you're like oh this sucks it was a son of suit every day so it's fun yeah and I'm just one creature think of the jaw was you know think of the Tuskins. They're all in those suits, too.

They're all in those outfits all day. Once you get set into it, you are in it until we wrap that night. And some of those people were there, shoot, I was there eight months. They were there, some were there 10 months, longer. You know, in those suits every day. That was their job. Every day being in that suit. You're like, okay.

And so it's like, but it's fun. There's no way around it. It's fun. Yeah. Now you're acting, but you're also doing stunts. So I want to ask you, this is not a big spoiler for anyone who hasn't seen the show. But I'm curious because I think it was the fourth episode or the third episode. I care which one.

But there's a pretty big battle scene with Boba Fett and Black Cresanton, the big wookie, the big, you know, big wookie. And then the Gimorians get involved. And immediately, I was like, hey, Triggs one of those Gimorians. So are you, I assume you're doing all that, right? Like you're doing the stunts on top of just doing the regular stuff, right? Yes, sir. Yeah, yeah, we do it all. So it's a weird category because you're like stunts and you have acting and you have action performing.

So in this particular case, I was an actor performer, right? So basically what I did is, is that I am, it's a little strange, but just because the way they do the crediting, I'm the actor, but I'm also the stunt double. So a lot of actor performers would be that guy that have like the eight, ten lines, they might have one monologue and they get their head blown off. Eight, ten lines in some movie and all of a sudden they get shot. That's like your action performer.

He's a stunt guy that can also act. We're action performers. So we can come in there, we can do these stunts, we're also going to act at the same time. And so I was very blessed to be in that little position. And to be honest with you, some days you're like, man, I wish we could just get this some action. And then some days you're like, I wish we just get back to talking.

Like this is, this day just sucks. Like that fight day, it was when we set up that scene to fight, it was spread out over about three weeks, over how it had to be cut, it had to be edited, and how things had to be done. And that fight scene is pull. one of the most grueling, tough, super hard fight scenes I've ever done. And if it wasn't for Craig Johnson, the stunt double for Black Australian. If it wasn't for Craig, it would have been impossible

for me to get that thing done. He had to do some real, because he's so big, like they're so big. And the way you do stuff is something that's that much larger than you, height wise, that to make it work for Canber, he had to do a lot of different stuff. And he really saved it for us. Like he really, he really put it together. Craig Johnson really did it so it made the scene look great at the end of the day. Because he had a carry, he literally had it carry me in some of these parts. Like he had to carry me in different parts to make it look like we were struggling with fighting, but he was actually holding me and holding me up and carrying me to make the camera angle look right.

Like this is how it had to work. So it was like, it was a really epic scene. It was super, super, super hot to do. And I'm super happy the way it came out. Like, I really liked the way it came out. I wish it was longer. I wish they showed more because we did so many takes. I wish they had, like, stretched it a little bit more,

even more time on air, but, you know, that's just the way he had it in goes. It was pretty epic, though. That whole thing, man, I was watching that like that. My eyes were wide, that entire scene. It was a pretty crazy scene. Even whatever they cut out of it, it was pretty crazy. Yeah, there's a bunch more than they could have used,

and they just decided to shorten it down for filming purposes. But I was like, dude, that's just, so I'm hoping it's going to be like some new release of extended version of everything that I'm hoping. Like, oh yeah, I got, I got that. Yeah. Now, I've, you know, in recent years, I've had the chance to attend several San Diego Comic-Con as media.

And I get to go to a lot of media rooms, like the roundtable rooms, and I've had a chance to interview, you know, Jamie Lee Curtis and, you know, and, you know, the actors from The Walking Dead and things like this. And I, you know, as I've been doing, I mean, I've sat in a room alone to interviewing guys like Connor McGregor and Ronda Rousey for years and all these kind of things. But, you know, actors, I'll admit, I get a little more nervous because, you know, they're, you know, celebrities.

And so, but when I'm in the room, when I'm in the room, I'm totally professional. I don't geek out. I don't, you know, during, but inside, I'm freaking out. I'm like, oh, my God, I'm sitting here talking to Jamie Lee Curtis. You just mentioned you're a huge Star Wars fan. You're sitting there, and I'm sure John Favro is on set. I'm sure Tamara Morrison who plays Boba Fett. Yeah.

All these different people, like, inside, do you get to geek out a little bit when you're working with some of these people? So Tim and Ming, are huge fight fans. And so when I show up on set, and I'm like, I just want to say, I really like your work. He's like, oh, Frank Trigg.

Hey, hey, hey. I'm like, oh, my God, what I do? What I do? He's like, oh, you're fight this and you're fight this. You're like, holy crap. These guys are fight fans. This is so it breaks the ice because now we have even grounder talk.

Right? And you get to know them and you're hanging out with them. And we're together sometimes, you know, 14, 15 hours a day, you know, for weeks on end, you get to know people. You get to know the personalities. You get to know where they're tired and they're hungry and they're complaining

and things aren't working right. You get to know what these people are like as human beings. You're like, oh, oh, yeah, he's just the same dude. He's just the same dude as I am. There's a guy from New Zealand trying to make it in this world all he's trying to do. All he is trying to do is get a body work put together,

pay his bills, and this is what he's doing and he's just amazing what he does. And same thing in McDonough. Like, you forget, she was, I mean, I can't even name the crap she's done. I worked with her on, in Aida's a Shield and that's how we knew each other

so we kept in contact just, you know, loosely through social media or whatever. We got the part of hit her up and we came in and we worked together and but she's also Milan right? And then she's been in everything

like she's done everything. Right? So this body of work that she's put together and you kind of forget you're like because you're geeked out. You're like, no, I got a daughter and a husband. I got to go home.

We got family stuff. We got to handle this weekend. We got things going on. Like, oh yeah, that's right. Like you're real human being. I kind of forget this. Okay, all right. See on Monday.

You know, it's got to, in the beginning, yes, absolutely nerd out. But now I'm talking about Comic-Con, the Gamerians, I'm hoping, will be at, what's the big Comic-Con one in May, Anaheim for Star Wars? Oh, the D-23. Is that the one your start? Or you're talking about WonderCon. WonderCon is in Anaheim and then D-23, I think. What's the one in May?

It's like the end of May. That is WonderCon. That's the one in-A-Hime. So we're trying to get into Wondercom. We have to get approved. So Disney has to prove us to be there But we're supposed to be there as the morning The Green Guard is supposed to be there with Ming

And with Tim In like a panel or whatever That's what they're trying That's the hope We're trying to get together So hopefully I'll be doing That'll be the first Comic Con I'll be in And we'll hopefully that'll

That'll you know Push into other things And start going to Europe To go to the Comic-Cons And you know They already got Lego pieces out They've already got What's those

The ones of the big square bubble heads Oh the Funker pops The Pops They already got those being made, but they were made for season two of Manalore. Those are different characters. We're hoping they're going to make new ones for us. But we'll see.

You know, this is all up in the air. But it's like when you're like talking to Jamie Lee Curtis, then imagine being around her for three weeks every day for 12 hours. You're like, you interviewed her for an hour, let's say, you get a piece of her talking, right? She's giving you answers and you're talking about whatever she's doing with Halloween and that kind of thing. And then now, a sudden, you get to hang out over three weeks.

You're like, oh, this is a, this is like a totally different aspect. This is a totally different thing because you get to talk story. All of a sudden, now you're talking about different things that happen in different shows and working for different directors and working for different directors. And obviously you get like insight, you see how everything starts to expand and you get to see how they, the reason why they do what they do. And how do they approach this particular character or creature? Like, how do they approach it?

You're like, oh, wow, I just learned a whole new thing of how to do this. And then don't get me started on. talking to, hey, thanks, just in passing. Thanks for chef, man. My wife and I watch it. Learned all about pasta water. Totally changed my game last night. Oh, obviously, he lights up,

and he wants to talk about food. We're not filming. Like, we're not filming for 45 minutes, because we're talking about grilled cheese sandwiches, right? I'm making those grilled cheese sandwiches tonight for dinner. But that's what I'm making tonight for dinner is that with a little bit of coconut curry soup. Like, that's what I'm making.

It's from that episode of learning how to make, I learned how to make his grilled cheese sandwiches with Roy. this is what I'm doing. And it just all started because I was like, hey, hey, thanks for the pasta water, kind of help my sauce a little bit. Oh, you got to try. That's you got to try. Like, he gets lit up.

So obviously you realize these people have other things. You just think of them as one deal. You know, you think like O'Connor and Ronorousie only have one thing that there's fighters. And obviously, you're like, oh, no, no, no, she's mom. And she's a WDB star. And she's got a farm. And she's got, she's raising, is it Kobe or Wagoo beef? Like, you know, oh, wow, they have other things going on.

It really expands your mind a little bit when you get the hang out. out with them a little bit more. You're like, oh, wow, this is a whole new realm. I didn't even thought about it. I didn't even think about this stuff. I see you on TV. I think I know you. I don't know you at all.

Like, now I'm learning now. Now I'm learning about this. So it's a totally different, bonger. It's funny. That's how I became buddies Donald Logue, who's an actor. He was on Gotham and he's in a lot of stuff. He's a big fight fan. So we became buddies through that.

And I saw him at Comic Con one year. And we ended up chatting and I went over and I was hanging out with the cast of Gotham. And we were just in the entire cast was like questioning. me about the fights because the fights have been the night before. And so they're like, oh, do you know this guy? And like, oh, have you covered this? And I'm just like, how am I? How did I turn into the guy you want to talk to?

Like, I know about fights. But it was so funny, like the whole cast new UFC. And they were like, oh, yeah, we watched the fights last night in our room and blah, blah, blah. And it was just so crazy. Like, you kind of forget, like you said, like these guys were all big fight fans. So like, then they were questioning me. They're like, oh, do you know this guy? And have you covered this guy?

And I'm just like, I was like, I'm like, I'm like freaking in all of you people right now. This is awesome. So, yeah, it is. Like, you be surprised. Donald was the partner, right? In Gotham? He was the... Yes, yes.

Okay, so he's the reason why I got on a stump town. Oh, really? I had a stunt job on a stump town because he was playing a part of Stump Town. He's playing a detective that kept running around on Stump Town. He's like, oh, yeah, we didn't even trigger. Because I saw him, I saw him to a bell sort. And we changed phone numbers, and he brings me in. I'm like, so this is, this is like how it works.

Like, this is how the real world works that you don't even think about. You're like, oh, yeah, like, you. you go meet somebody, talk about fights, all of a sudden, you got a job, you got a day job on this one show, this one time. This is how these things go, and what a sweet man. Like, you know, it's incredible to have these kind of things

running around. And for you to go into, like, I'm a little nervous. I got talking about these guys from Gotham. I got one guy I know, and the rest of the cast I don't really know. I know them because I watch the show, but I don't know them.

And they're like, so, Damon, what happened last thing? What happened? like you can't believe that actually happened and what do you think without this we think about this you're like dude i got to interview you like they're gonna kick me out of here like an hour like i gotta can we get to my thing please yeah it's crazy it's because i was that's how i became friends with thea rossi from sons of anarchy same kind of thing we became buddies because he's a big fight fan he came on my podcast a couple times we exchanged numbers and i saw him at comic-con and like again he didn't want to talk about sons of anarchy he wanted to talk about the fights he's like let's talk about the fights and then like again you find out how many people are fight fans so it's a weird thing and it's kind of cool like how that you kind of make that all connection uh and i mentioned i know we've been talking a lot about book of bobovette but for anyone that hasn't been following that you've been in a ton of stuff like i know you do magnum p i you do hawai five oh i had your i mdb your i mdb page pulled up and it's just littered with all the stunt work all the different

things you've been doing so you've been very very busy yeah i've been really lucky man it's been it's it's been a long road don't think that you walk in the stance you know i went jumped into it about 10 years ago and you think that you think that that, oh, he walked in, all of a sudden, you're working full time. Like, you get a day here, you get, like, you know, two days a month, three days a month. Like, you're hoping to scratch enough together to kind of keep a job, you know, and then you always have to have other work, too.

And then it starts picking up, and you get on runs. You're like, oh, I had, like, three good months of work, and obviously you don't work for four months. You know, it's very hard. So, like, for actors, like, let's take, like, a Tom Cruise. Let's take a Tom Cruise, right? And a super high-level A-list, you know, like a Denzel Washington. you know these guys have these huge ramps they work really hard for six months and they might

have anything for four or five months they work really hard for six months they don't work you know for four or five months because they've just done these projects and they're in the next one ramping up the next project so they have like these big super high abs and flows where stunt guys their flows a little bit less right where we'll have a run for like three or four months and we'll work for like a week and have a run for like three or four months you know that work when you first begin you get like one day and then three weeks later you get one day and then a month later you get one day. You're like, Jesus, like, I'm never going to make any money at this.

This is not going to work for me. Like, I don't know how to function on one day at work. Three days of work a month. Like, I have to have another full-time job doing something else. I can make my bills pay. And then you get on that run, you're like, okay, and I got to make a decision. What do I do? What do I do? So a true story, I don't think I'm speaking out of turn when I talk about Brennan Wayne.

He's John Wayne's grandson, but he is the guy in the Mandalorian suit. He is the mandolian suit. He is the mandolian. Right. Pablo when the head comes off in the voice Brennan is the guy that walks around does all the action, gave Grogu the ball in the season one. Like this is all, that's all Brennan.

Brennan would work 13, 14 hour days, monthly Friday on Manilorian, season one, season two. And then on the weekends, we'll go bartend at the lobster in Sanamont. And you're like, Brennan, what the fuck you did? Like, what are you doing?

He's like, I don't know when this is going to end. I don't know when this is. is going to end for me. So I got to keep money going in. If I stop working at the lobster, that's my backup money. That's my, that's my job. So when I don't have acting days, I pick up a Tuesday night. I pick up a Thursday night. But if I'm working, then I just work, you know, a Friday night, Saturday, Sunday day. Like, that's my job. And you'd be amazed at how many high-level actors until, like, very recently, we're working other full-time jobs

doing other things because they have to make, to make your ends meet, to make your bills meet. Then you get on these runs, you're like, okay. So you look at my MDB, I have a crap ton of credits, but a lot of them have happened within the last three, four years, right? That's the majority of my body of work is the last three or four years, because that's why I started getting rid of work. And I'm actually talking about my NPI. I was supposed to leave today to go to Hawaii, to go work on that NAPI. It's been pushed because they've had a really severe COVID outbreak on the island of Oahu,

so they've had to push production. So I'm not going out until the first week of February, but things are still going to happen, it just gets pushed. So let's say I'm writing on that. See, I'm living paycheck to paychecks still. I'm writing on that work to happen from today. for two weeks. Now it's been pushed by two weeks. What do I do? I'm stuck. Well, lucky for me. I got another show that I was able to make a couple phone calls and I'm getting picked up next week

to work on something else. A lot of guys can't do that. And so it's very hard. Like anything else, when you first got into M.A journalism, it wasn't easy when you first got in. You had a, people like, who's dealing with him, right? Why is he calling? Like, who just ignore, ignore, ignore, I don't know this guy. Now people are like, oh, damn, hey, damn, what's going on? And like, oh, it rang? I don't know what the hell. Like, oh, that's not. I saw your name come on. I had to pick it up. Like, now it's changed because you've been doing it for so long that now you have this body of work that everybody wants to be a part of.

They're like, okay, they'll be a part of it. It's still how it is and everything else, and it's how it is here, too. It's that same piece. And there's a lot of stuff in there and my body of work. I'm like, don't watch it. Don't look at me. Like, don't see the show. Watch the show.

Watch the movie. Don't watch me. Don't look at me. I wasn't doing very good at that point. Like, I wasn't good. Don't do it. Now I'm like, yeah, man, I can't wait. You know, I just, we came back from Peru, like maybe six weeks ago, filming Transformers.

So I can't wait for that to come up at the end of next year. Like, that's going to be another good one. And then, like I said, I'm working on a Marvel one. There's like some stuff that in the works. I'm like, my body of work. And then, like, you know me, I got to have other jobs. So now I'm starting to produce. So I'm in the middle of casting a film right now that I bought the script.

I've got it approved. I work in a production company. They're like, we love it. We love what your ideas. And I go get it cast it. You're like, oh, I thought you guys were to get actors. for me. No, that's your job. Like, that's why you want to be an EP?

You want to be a producer? This is what's going to happen. Go, go get it. Oh, okay. All right. So I got to go talk to actors and try to get them signed up for these films. So it's, it's a constant evolving game of these kind of things. And, man, it's fun. I've got to be honest with you, man. I can't deny that

how much fun it is and how it's great when you get a callback from like a rampage or Donald Serroney and Cowper's like, I'm in. I'm in, I'm in. I'm in. Dude, I said you the script four minutes ago. How to hell you went? Don't care. I'm in. It's great. Dude, read it. Read it before you say you're in.

There's a little part in there around, you know, page 37, 38 that you might not want to do. So just read it for me. Two days later. Still in. Even with that, even with that scene, still in. Okay. Right, that's in. All right.

Cabo's going to be a part of it. Perfect. Right page. Okay, good. Now it's like, you're starting to get these things cast and trying to get stuff together and trying to pull it. You're like, okay. But then you have to start with that rollerbacks. You're like, hey, Thier Rals.

you're available in June. Want to shoot something? Hey, Frank Guerrillo. What is she something in June? Hey, John Tucker. When does she something, June? Like, do you guys around? And like, okay, yeah, here's a script. Take a look at it. You know, so it's another thing that you have to kind of push yourself into. It's like, it's just that branching out and trying to be more than just being, being stationary with one thing. You know, because like I said, stunts can go away tomorrow.

Like, I can never get another phone call again for stunts. Can never get another phone call. And my body working, my body work is my body working. I'm stuck now already. gotta start all over on something else you know so you have to keep you know eyeballing and doing stuff and getting stuff put together you know yeah you mentioned that let me just name dropping because another great guy you mentioned jonathan tucker great guy i again same kind of thing became friends with them to the fight industry we met at a fight card a couple of fight cards and uh

incredibly incredibly good dude there's another one you mentioned like again same thing to the fight thing he's a phenomenal actor uh but just such a good person now that's the guy like i've gotten to know kind of like with donald's like you just get to know like he's just a really really good person. And it's just cool to hear those stories. But in all seriousness, though, like, you've been, you've been so, it's so funny. Like, I called you about the Mandalorian there, about the Boba Fett thing. But I've seen, I've been watching, like, random TV shows or something with my girlfriend.

And I'll be like, hey, it's trig. I see you pop up. And I know I should probably text you when this happens, but I'm just like, I'll get another random text, like, somebody like, yeah, I'm in that show. But I, like, I'll be sitting around and I'll be like, hey. It was all time. I know. Like, I'll get, I'll get shameless.

Like, I'll somebody text me like, I'm just watching Shameless. I'm like, shameless is off the air. Like, what are you? Oh, you watched three months. Okay, I just saw you. You know, it happens all time. Every night I'll get a blow up or something. Somebody, some high school guy I've been talked to in like 15, 20 years. Dude, I just saw you with this thing.

I just saw you in this thing. I'm like, yeah, I'm there, I'm in it. You know? That's awesome, though. As you said, though, you know, there's no guarantees, but to be as busy as you are, that's awesome. because you do have a lot of things and you are able to do a lot of things you mentioned you know like you said

you had the other project pushed back a couple weeks to make to something else like that's pretty cool and you're able to do this because I know stunt work I'm not going to sit here and profess to say I know stunt work I've just talked to stunt people

but I know it's not like a steady industry can be a not a steady industry and so the fact that you are so busy that speaks to your work ethic that speaks to the relationships you build with people and again like they want you to work that says a lot about what you've been doing

Well, the big thing is, is like when I was doing stuff on Transformers and doing stuff like for Bookabobovet for JJ, it's very much, like I said, there's plenty of guys that are as good as me, if not better. They could do this exact same thing. But I got the phone call because he wants me on set. He wants me to be around him because he'll be around me for seven, eight months, 12 hours a day. Do you want to be around a person you don't particularly like we have a hard time with? You don't really, they rub me the wrong way in certain things. Like, do you want to be around that person? So a lot of it, too, is personality drip.

Where I'm going to be with this guy for a long time. One day, you can handle one day off, a day job, shouldn't or bump. A week even, you can kind of handle a person for like a week and just, like, you just stay in different places than they are. It's not that big of a deal. Seven and eight months, being on a run over a long show, being on a run of a long movie, it's very difficult. And you get hired because of your personality and that they also know that they can

throw a curveball at you right in the middle of it. And you're like, yep, no problem. Good to go. What do you need? What do you need? Where do you need it? When do you need it? You know, like a lot of that, that's what happens in the stunts a lot, because it's budgetary.

It's, it's, you get whatever. We see these big movies, you know, $250 million, right? Oh, yeah, great. So they have this huge budget. They do whatever they want, right? But then most of the stuff you're working on, like these TV shows you see on prime time, they have a budget as well.

And it might be, I don't know, I'm making numbers up because I don't know what the numbers are. Let's say it's $500,000 an episode, $100,000 an episode. Well, if something's get cut, you're not cutting Jay Hernandez's rollout. You're not cutting pretty weeks out.

You're not cutting Zach Knight and or Stephen Hill out to make the cast of Madden API. You're cutting stunts out, right? So you go there, you go there, you all set up, you put your jerk vests on. It's a little vass that goes underneath it that put a wire on you to make it look like you jump higher or fly further

or whatever you do. I put that all, have that all geared up. I'm ready to go and like, hey, we're out of, you just got to follow the phone. What? Like, I'm set for this huge gag. Like, this will be a big gag. What happened?

I'm running out of daylight. We've got to move on. We got to move. Okay, all right. All right, boom. And you got to make a shift. And now it's going to me getting, you know, getting blasted out of the window in the air,

you know, toes touching my hands as I'm flying out backwards with the window. Now I'm just hitting the ground. Okay, all right. But you've got to make that adjustment. And a lot of people, I've seen it. A lot of people like, that's not fair. I got this whole thing. Oh, let me go take it off.

And I'm like, okay, whatever. We've got it done. Let's go right now. Let's go right now. Let's go right now. I'm ready. If we're not doing it right now, it's not because of me.

It's because of you guys aren't ready. I'm ready to go. So no one's going to wait on me. I'm ready to go. I'm going to sit here. I'll be quiet. I'm going to wait. The only one I asked for is espresso.

Give me an espresso. I'm ready to go. That's all I need. That's it. But that's part of that is like that personality driven. Do you want to be on a fight team? Excuse me. Do you want to be on a fight team

where the three heads, three big stars in the room, drive you nuts. You can't stand them. Now, it might work for you. We walk in like, I'm going to beat that guy up today. I'm going to, I'm going to smash that guy's face. And also, I'm like, I don't want to deal with it.

I don't want that angst. I don't want that deal. I don't want to, so it depends on how you want to run your shows and how you run stuff. And it really is personality driven, you know? And that's what like, you go back to Brian Bennett, the reason why everything works so well in every week when he was alive is because it was all personality driven.

Everybody had a great personality. Everybody loved to work together. Everybody wanted to be a part of it. Everybody knew what the advance it was going to be. we need to be the number one new site for MMA. How are we going to do this? What are we going to do? Let's make this happen.

And everybody was on board with it. Right. And sometimes you go to some places, you're like, this is all just can join. This is all a problem. The director doesn't like the AD. The AD doesn't want to talk to the second AD.

The stunt coordinator can't stand anybody. Like, what are we doing? And it's like, okay, this is that person out of driving space. I'm in a position now where I'm like, I think I might be busy that thing. I don't want to work. They're like,

what? Just because, and I literally will cost like, today a guy called me for work next week. I reached out to him. It was like, hey, and he called me back and said, I got, I need you right now. I need you, I need you.

And that made me, made my antenna go up. What happened? Well, there's these scenes we need, there's this fight scene, and this driving scene, and the guy we used before, and it kind of looks like you couldn't do it. We thought he could, he couldn't do it.

And then it became a personality conflict, and so we had to release him and let him go, and then we need to reshoot some of this stuff. Can you come in? Oh, yeah, 100% of it. No problem. Who else is on set? who am I working with?

Because there's somebody that I don't like, it might be, he's like, no, no, no, no. I'm like, oh, yeah, like everybody that's on them. Let's go work. Let's make this happen. Let's make magic. You know, and so a lot of his personality, which is why I'm able to work so much

and why I make that phone call. And why you're able to make that phone call. Like, hey, you got time? You know what? Yeah, let me book this up. Let me tell you this, Dammit. You're the only one that gets to me. Everybody else.

Oh, yeah, yeah, hold on. Let me get my assistant's email. Hit her up. She can show my schedule. That's how it works. I don't do any. I don't schedule my stuff. Let's schedule any of it.

She doesn't do any of it. She handles it. You're like, oh, yeah, I just told me, hey, I'm doing this podcast with David. Like, buddy of mine, we're going to just do it. That's how it works. Percent drove, right? That's what it works. Like, you know, now people pick up your phone call.

Hey, see, my name. Oh, yeah. Thursday, 3 o'clock. Okay, it's it. But you don't realize, like, the new guys coming in, like the new guys, hey, we want to get you want, but you want to get you on. Like if Ariel Hawani had somebody else call me to come into the interview,

yeah, I'm not, I'm good, I'm not doing it. You got my number. You call me. Why am I dealing with this other person? I don't want to. Right? That's just me. It's like, you get in, right? And other people know. And other people are like pushed off. And people have been trying to get me on to do podcasts like the last three months. I've done a podcast blackout.

Complete podcast blackout. I had a bad experience in one podcast. He asked a bunch of questions. specifically saying you cannot ask me. I will not answer. And I had to politely skip over it. I didn't like bail on. I don't want to be that guy that ran away from the podcast. I'm like, yeah, baby, I'm a podcast blackout.

Like, no more. Unless it's blackout. So this is the first one I've done like three months, four months. I have not done any at all. Well, not. And because of, I don't want to deal with some of the extra bullshit, personality driven. I'll tell you right now.

We're friends. We like each other. When you're a forward thinker, you don't just bring your A game. You bring your AI game. Workday is the AI platform that transforms the way you manage your people, money, and agents, so you can transform tomorrow. Workday, moving business forever forward.

I'll say right now, listen, you are an incredibly busy guy, and I 100% appreciate you doing this, but I will say, Trig, as far back as we go, if I ever text you, you say, can you call my assistant? I'd be like, really? Trigg, really? You're going to make me call your assistant? Come on now. I will say what I have done,

especially with a couple of my friends, because I be like, I'm in the middle of a media blitz. Like, for whatever reason, it comes in waves, right? I don't know why.

It's not like I'm promoting a particular movie or particular TV show. Like, I'm not that guy. They don't call me. They call on the call sheet, they call one,

two, three, four, and five. The guy, the first five people on the call sheet are your stars. Those are the guys you're calling. I'm not calling me for this stuff. But all of a sudden,

it comes in waves, but like, I get inundated with a bunch of stuff. And I will literally go, yes, 100% I'm going to do it, but you've got to reach out to Joe because she has my schedule. Give me a second.

Now, three way you in and be like, hey, Joe, I'm absolutely doing this podcast, getting the first available slot, make this thing happen. I just don't know what my schedule is because she has the calendar. She has the calendar. She knows the calendar in front. I don't have it.

I'm like, I don't want to say yes to you. I'm like, oh, crap, I'm sorry. I got to reschedule five times, which is what happened. Truth be known, what happened today. I scheduled our time earlier, just the fans at home. I scheduled this earlier,

forgetting I had to be in a production meeting. I'm in a production meeting. David text me. He's like, did you mean a different time? I was like, fuck. Totally forgot. Okay, so let me do it so I can help. I'm so sorry. I told you up. I forgot. I don't, you know, I don't always put my calendar together. I have to look

at my calendar to realize what I'm doing. I was like, oh, we'll just do it on Wednesday. It's fine. Totally fine. We'll just do it. I always tell people when, you know, you're really busy. And I truly do mean this. I say this all the time. It's when the phone stops ringing. That's when you have to worry. Like, When the phone stops ringing, like, it's good to be busy, right?

Like, it's good to have that kind of schedule. It's good that you actually need an assistant to line up your schedule. Because that means you're busy. You're working. You got things going on because it's when the phone stops ringing, that's when you've got to worry. The hard part is like when you're like, do you have to see this last weekend when I was refting. Like people wanting, you know, other media are there. And I'm by media row.

So I'm kind of, you know, because I have to walk around do stuff. And you'll get people that I don't know. And be like, hey, can I get you for the occasion? I'm like, dude, I got this thing. I can't. And always at the end of the night, you're like, wow, I really was a dick. Like, I really blew that guy off.

I wasn't trying to, though. I'm trying to collect cards. I got to collect the score cards to give him to Andy Foster and Mark Relia so they can put the score us up. Like, I don't have that. I got to do this other job. I don't have time to mess around with this. Hey, let's exchange phone numbers and emails and get this podcast on.

So I just, like, fucking bolted. Right? But then Kevin Ioli was sitting there. We talked for a couple minutes, and he'll text me. in like a week. And we're like, hey, why do you? You're like, okay, man. That's what it is.

Like, these are guys that I know. It's like, the people I don't know, like, I feel bad. I'm sorry. I wasn't trying to be an asshole. It's just happened. I apologize. Now, in the middle, in the middle of all you got going on, of course, you have been doing the referee thing for a while.

When you popped up at UFC 270 this past week and refereeing some fights, was that just a matter of you had some time to do it, basically? Like, where you actually had, like, a window where you could go in and do some, because as a business as you are, as much as you're doing. Oh, no, no, no, no. So Andy Foster, so here's the deal. People ask me all the time.

Andy Foster in California keeps me extremely busy. Extremely busy. I already have eight assignments booked out through April just for California. So I don't, I'm not licensed any of those jurisdiction because I'm so busy with everything else. And what it comes down to is time and effort, right? How much time in Africa can I put myself, you know, how thin can I stress myself? I can't stress myself any better.

So I'd be very cautious about how I do things and what I do. So my deal. with Andy is, California gets first come first. They call me for an event. I put them on it. But he also knows I might get called away to have to go do Magna Pia, Pocobo Fet, you know, snatched with Goli Han and Amy Schumer. I may get called away to do these things, right? I got pulled off when I did the library for with Antonio Mederis. It's on Netflix. I got pulled away. Like I had to miss a day of refereeing because I was still on set. I couldn't get away. Right. So we have this deal worked out where I am going to Raff mainly in California.

Now, there's a couple of jurisdictions that they call them, ask me to be assigned. I cannot say no. These other jurisdictions call me. I cannot say no. I will go apply for a license there. I will do events there because my friends run the commission. So I'm not going to say no to that.

But I'm not trying to go be everywhere all the time. I'm just too busy to do it. And this is unfortunate. It's because the pay. There is no referee or judge that all they do is rough and judge. Everybody has a full-time job. Every single person. I don't care.

You name the guy, Gordard, Herzog, Beltran, Bell, Cleary, DiMato, Crosby, all have jobs. Some jobs doing other stuff. Refing and judging the M.A. is a hobby that pays money, right? It doesn't pay that much. We don't get paid like boxing officials. It's just not set up that way. We just don't.

So as a result, I have done UFC since when did Cub Swanson? fight Brian Ortega. That's going back and yeah, it's going back like four or five years now, I think. Yeah, I've been doing UFC since before then. It's not like the UFC is this part

when it comes to California. I'm on the UFC. When Belcher comes to California, I'm on it. It's just what it is. Like, I know, I know to clear that date. I am on that show.

I don't, I don't get the assignment. Yeah, I haven't been texting hey, you give the assignment. I just know they'll be attached to it. And my wife knows that she's going to be a timekeeper on it. So we just booked that weekend out. We know that we're going to be busy that weekend. This is how it works.

And so when people were like, oh, we've seen, you know, oh, my God, it's so great to see you on the UFC. Part of me was like, do you guys not watch? Do you not watch? But then I realized I'm doing my job. I'm doing my job in such a fashion that you don't even know. Fight fans. Die-hard fight fans don't even know I'm in the cage. I did my job because the job of the referee is not to be seen, not to be heard, not to be in the way.

Let the fighters fight, let them do their job. And the only time I got to be in there is for fighter safety. Save fighters from themselves, when they think they can continue when they can't, and stop the following something out. That's my job. Stay out of the way of the camera. I don't even be any part of it.

None of it. I'm out of it. That is the Mark Ratner theory of refereeing. We're not part of the show. We're just there. So people are like, oh, it's so great to see you. We do the pay-per view. So great to have you on me.

Dude, this is not my first one. This is like my third or fourth. Pay-review. Like, I've been doing this for eight years. Like, what are you talking about? Like this is like this is not something new. But it does make you, at first you get your ego gets in the way.

Come on, what should be big, to me in there? Then you're like, no, it's my job, not to be seen. That's my job.

No, it's my job. No, it's not supposed to be around. And people get mad at me, they'll like, they'll text me or hit me up on Instagram, get me like, oh, you did this thing wrong or that thing wrong or that thing.

I don't respond. I don't respond to any of that. I don't need to. If you want to talk to somebody, talk to Herzog. He will respond to you all day. All day. All day.

Those guys are responding all day long. Talk to them. I don't. It's not my position. My position is going to her. I do my job. If I have a problem, the lead inspector and or the executive officer,

Andy Foster, will dress me down in front of everybody. I have been dressed out. I have absolutely made a mistake and been walked out of that cage and got dressed out. Literally at the bottom of the stairs getting foam spit coming out of the corner of mouth, like angry. If I could hit you and get away with it, I would hit you kind of thing. like getting dressed down.

Like, oh, yeah, I really screwed up. Now, okay, all right. And it fixed it for the next thing. And that's it, move on. That's it. So, like, I don't really listen to anybody else because I got those guys already yelling at me. So, like, you guys, whatever else says,

the fans say online, DMing me. I'm like, it doesn't matter. I'm going to yell that for this. It doesn't matter. I'm going to kind of moved over. But that's kind of the game. That's how it is. Yeah.

And I'll say, I love Andy Foster. I've called him to gold standard of commissions, executive directors. I mean, I, again, you know, we, because commissions, referees and judges, in my opinion, like, it's the toughest jobs in sport because the times you hear from us, the media, you hear from the fighters, is somebody complaining. You generally don't hear from something. Like you said, when you're in the case you do a good job, we don't really think of you

because you're just doing your job. It's when a referee or a judge makes a bad call or a referee doesn't stop a fight or what. That's when you hear about it because it's a mistake or it's a perceived mistake. But in all honesty, I think that, you know, Andy Foster's gold standard when it comes of commissions and I think you've done a phenomenal job as a referee and we've seen other guys and one thing I do enjoy and listen I think guys like Mark Goddard I think Mark Goddard you know is a phenomenal referee Jason Herzluck phenomenal referee Mike Beltran of course the Mayan star Mike Beltran by the way speaking of which he's in Miami's and C phenomenal

referee there's a lot of great referees but I do enjoy seeing more fighters get involved whether it's refereeing or judging again you've been in there you know and I'm not saying you have to because a lot of those guys haven't but I do like to see guys like you'll I knew Chris Lieben did it as well. We've seen, I know I know Shalyn Haberra had done it for a little while. I don't know if he is anymore. But like, I like seeing that. Yeah, but I like seeing that.

And a lot of people think how come not more fighters do it? And so let me be very clear, the reason why more fighters don't do this job. It's really fucking hard. It's really hard. I mean, being a referee and a judge, it's really hard. And it's thankless. And you don't make any money yet. Okay?

So if you're like somebody that walks out, and you're like, I get $150,000 every time I fight or $200,000 every time I fight, and I'm now going to go and I'm going to have to spend two years in the amateur ranks getting my, because in California, you have to do 100 amateur allowed to ask,

to ask if you can apply for your pro license. And most of the time, Andy says, no, no, you're not ready yet. You got to do another 100. So it takes you two years to get to enough we can go pro. You make $100 a $100 a number. night at the amateur level a night and you'll do probably six seven eight sometimes i've done i've done she i've done 13 i've ref 13 battles at the amateur level and win night they're 26 fights on

the car at two reps we said 13 that it's not for a hundred bucks you're like no there's no fighter in his right mind you think chuck ladle is going to come in and and and start to rap or judge for a hundred dollars for two years like that doesn't make any sense he can he can he can make that by going to the bar and having people buy him drinks. Why would you go do that unless you really love the job, right? Then you get pushed all the way through. Then you're at the top of the amateur level. And guess where you go when you go to the pros? You get your first pro shot. Guess where you go? The bottom again. So now you're on the early fight pass, the pre-lim portion of the fight card. You're like, dude, this is like, I'm back down to the bottom. And unless you are

doing a main event or a main event on TV or a paper. view, you get paid less than the other people. So like, you have to get to that pay-per-view number to make a decent wage to be roughing and judging, right? If you're not, if you're not experienced enough there, you have to you down the bottom. So you start, you go bottom to top, bottom to top again. And the money at the very top, like I said, everybody, every single one of us has a full-time job. Mike Beltran is still an active duty detective in the sheriff's and the L.A. Sheriff's Police Department. He is still active. Jason Herzog works for a GOND, a company that works with a company that DoD.

Mike Bell works for Boeing, works for Boeing. Like these guys, we all have full-time jobs doing other things. This is our weekend hustle. That's what it is. And there's no way any more pro, you know, former pro fighters are going to jump in unless you really love the sport and be around it because it is thankless. And like you said, we don't care until you mess up. Then all of a sudden, we want to know what you did, where you did, and how bad you are.

I want to tell you let you know, you know, that. what you look like and how bad it was, and you almost killed that guy and blah, blah, blah. They go through all these things. It's like, okay. So like I think leaving and I, to be quite honest, I think leaving and I are probably the end of the real pro. And I don't want to disrespect any other,

but I'm talking about the guys that made it to the top of the heap. We were in the big show. We had shots to fight for titles. We were in the hunt for the top five. We were doing the game. We're at the big side of it. The end of it is leaving or not. There's not going to be any other guys.

They're going to try to run. ref anymore. Matt Dangson passed John McCarthy's course. Mack did it for like, he roughed like maybe 13 or 14 bouts as an amateur and never did it again. Like never did it again. Like what happened? I didn't like it wasn't like, yeah.

And that's it. It's like it kind of beats you up and kiss you out. So the top guys like your, your deans and your Goddard's and your Biltrans and your Herzogs are the best because not only time because they stick through it and they learn and they adapt and as the sport moves along we have to move with it that you know there's new things that happen just like me some moves now that never were around my day they never around we see guys doing stuff like oh yeah that's brand new oh that's cool you know like the ref i the the the fight i repped with um excuse me sorry that i raft uh with Vanessa this weekend

three or four years ago that fight would have been done with she hit the ground that does flash knockout done fights over right fight game has changed that flight that flash knockout isn't the same as it used to be anymore how does she react what does she do we're more knowledgeable about head trauma so what is she doing against the ground i immediately you see me immediately so yelling at her show me want to be in this show me want to be in this she's just moving she's moving her head she's moving her hand she's digging in flicking for an arm bar she's kind of she's trying to move around like oh okay still there before just went, no, done, fight it's over, why you're up? And he didn't give me a shot.

So we have to adapt, too. A lot of people can't do that. A lot of really good reps couldn't do it. That's why the rough, you already see different reps could change around. I mean, look how good Keith Peterson is. Keith Peterson is an amazing referee, amazing referee, right? And he gets one, wasn't it, wasn't it, Dominic Cruz or something? Dominic Cruz, yeah.

He almost gets a bad rep. You're like, what the hell are you talking about? Like, everything he said is completely incorrect. Like, Domit just made stuff up, just because he got. got mad because he got beat. That's all he came down to. You got back because he got beat. And so he took it on the referee. Like, hold on a second, man. You bam out from this guy. And what happened? We didn't see Keith for a while. Why not? He didn't do anything wrong. And he did he was right. I don't understand it. But that's the game. Like, and Keith

came back stronger. Right? He didn't do anything wrong. But he still took it. He took it as like, okay, I have to be a better referee. So he became a better referee. So he became a better referee. And I was back. You're like, my God, I love watching that guy. I love watching that guy. No nonsense. Keep either. Keep him. He comes in there, he's like, stoic face and just like, you're ready, you're ready. He just does his job. Like, well, that's the guy you want to emulate, you know?

Like Beltran, same thing. Herzog, same thing. That's the thing you want to emulate, those guys. And I got lucky because I had McCarthy, Beltran, Herzog, Bell. Every time I rough the amateur level, those were the guys I was always around. So I believe when I said about getting dressed down,

there's nothing scary when John McCarthy is yoing A. For something stupid. I'm talking about, even matter. It didn't even matter. Didn't change the outcome of the fight. The right fighter still won. No one's career was shortened. Nothing happened. The promoter doesn't even care. But John saw it. And that's what counts. John saw it. You're like, yes, sir. Sorry.

Sorry. Sorry. What the hell, man? I didn't know that thing was wrong. I didn't know what was wrong. I was that. How much do you yell that for somebody? I didn't know I did wrong. And now you're in it. So it's like it's a, it's a weird weird game. You know, it's a weird game. But it's fun, man.

You get in there. Dude. And like, what about me? You look at that. Did you, did you think for a moment that Francis was going to wrestle? No, nobody did.

Nobody did. For a moment, like a moment that, that the co-man event would throw and Brandon was going to go was going to be that crazy, like to the point where we still don't know

who the better fighter is between two of them. How many times they fought? Three times? Yeah, three times. Yeah, three times. You have a draw and a win a piece, right? Yep. Am I correct that?

Like, we still don't know who the better guy is. Still don't know. But now we've got a C4. You're like, it's incredible. Like, do you now imagine being the ref in there? Right? You're thinking like, oh, this, this is a heavyweight fight's going to be a striking fight. You know, hers going to be on hand.

It's going to be striking. It'll be okay. And then all of a sudden, you know, you're like, oh, Francis has lost the first two rounds. He lost the first two rounds. Okay. All right, let's see what happens. Then all of a sudden, third round comes in. He's like, I literally tap the guy next to me.

Did he just shoot? Like, what? He just shot. Oh, crap, he's on top. Oh, wow, this changes everything. Okay, let's see what he does with it. Now, a sudden, we got a fight, right? We're expecting that.

But the ref in there sees footage on whatever YouTube or fight pass, whatever it is. You see your footage of your footage. You're like, oh, this is the fight I'm anticipating. And that fight throws you a curveball. you got to adapt. You got to overcome. That's part of the game. And it's rough and it's tough. And sometimes you get it

and you're like, oh, geez, I'm sorry. I'm so bad with names, David. The 200 feet of kids the fight of rough, but he blasts him, hit him with a jab in the face. And then gosh, darn it. I can't remember, but one of the kids got all blood. He got bladed up.

And I kind of let it and I had let it go. I'm like, okay, because he's not responding to my commands. Show me a little bit. He's moving a little bit. Hey, God defend, God defend. He's defending himself. He gets cracked more. He gets wrapped back.

He gets wrapped back. It's racked again. It's wrapped again. Then finally gets dropped. This fight's over. And then you know he did a good job as a referee. The guy looked at you and looks at you. Kind of gives you that blank stare.

You're like, oh, he's lucky yell at me. What his door is lady? He looks to me and goes, puts his face back down. He goes, oh, yeah, yeah. He was ready to be out. I hit it right the right time. He wanted out of the fight. At the right time, I stepped in the right time.

to stop the fact. You're like, okay, job's done. I'm good. There's my hero shot. There's my hand rate. There's my hero shot. That guy looked at me. He's like, yep, I'm good.

Thank you for doing that. Without saying anything, just give me that eyeball. Look, yeah, yeah. Okay, I got it. I did it right. That's what you need. You may have heard of the sex cult nexium and the famous actress who went to prison

for her involvement, Alison Mack. But she's never told her side of the story until now. People assume that I'm like this pervert. My name is Natalie Robamed. And in my new podcast, I talked to Allison to try to understand how she went from TV actor to cult member. How do you feel about having been involved in bringing sexual trauma to other people? I don't even know how to answer that question. Allison after Nexium from CBC's

Uncover is available now on Spotify. It's crazy you say that you mentioned the Vanessa Demopoulos fight like we if not for and this again I'm talking about the thankless Java referee. We all freaked out with that comeback. One of the greatest comebacks we've seen. I mean she got knocked loopy with that first shot she got knocked down hard, comes back, gets the submission. If there's not a good referee in there, we don't see that.

The comeback doesn't happen. The fight stopped. You know what I mean? Another referee might have looked at that and said, done, wave it off. You know what I mean? We don't get that. But what are we talking about?

We're talking about the comeback. We don't talk about like the referee who didn't stop it. You know, that's what I said? It's a thank the show. The only time you hear from us and the only time you hear of people is like, oh my God, why didn't you stop that fight

when that guy or girl was getting killed in there. We don't, we're talking about, oh, my Vanessa pulled off, but if it wasn't for a quality referee and they're not stopping it when she got knocked down, she would never had the chance to come back. Yeah, and that's training and that's everything, you know, putting that time in. And also, I do have an advantage.

I'm not going to lie, I do have an advantage. I've been in that position. I've been hit by Kostick. I've been hit by Matt Sarah. I've been there and jump right back up. Like, what the hell? Like, still Josh Roslindoll, I still want to, you know, when I work with him,

I'm like, dude, you know, back then, the rules back then, when you got flashed, you got flashed, the fight was over. That was the rules back there. They have now changed. You have to show me that you're out. Like, you got to get that punch. You get dropped. You take one more punch. You take it to the second punch.

This fight is done, right? But you take that first punch, and you start defending, they start grabbing? Yeah, you're on the ground. Your brain did shut down, but you're not out of it. We got to get this fight cut up. Because now it used to be, you know, $5,000, $7,000 if you lose the fight, swing between show money and win money, right? Now we're talking hundreds of thousands of dollars. Show money, win money. Like, you change a guy, you can change a guy's career by shutting it up

too quick. You can change your guy's career by letting it go too long, right? You're financially, you change a person's whole ability to provide for their family, but not being the referee you need to be when you're in there. And so I take it very seriously when I'm like, I am in there for fighter safety. I want to make sure these fighters are safe. It's funny. When I work with my wife, she's my timekeeper. And she takes, she takes timekeeping as seriously as I take refing because, legitimately, you don't think about this stuff. We're timekeepers.

But when we call time, and it's for a groin shot, if she doesn't keep an exact, accurate time for that five minutes of time out, that all of a sudden now at the end of the fight, this guy got four seconds longer, which caused the knockout to happen that shouldn't have ever happened because you didn't have those four seconds. The fight shouldn't have called off earlier because the timekeeper wasn't paying attention to the time, right?

The timekeeper is also responsive, like, was a bang, bang Ludwig when he had that fast knockout, right? That's all timekeeper. The timekeeper

has hit the button, right? It doesn't stop the time. It continues. So a seven-second knockout becomes a 14-second knockout because you're not paying attention. That changes people's lives.

That's performance for the night, right? That's a $50,000 swing. That's a, that's a, that is, people be able to buy a house. That's a $50,000 swing. I can now buy a house because I just,

because they have performance for the night. But if you didn't give me that, opportunity. So like these, all these things go in and people like, we don't even talk about 10 people. We don't talk about the referees till they screw up. We're talking about judges to who cares. It doesn't matter. That that's the thing. It doesn't matter. And so we have to take that to our own. We have that really thick skin and be like, the one time it's going to say it to us is when we screw up. We got to be ready for it. Right. Got to go the shoulder roll. Get the James Tony going because it's about to be bad. You know, that's how it is. And all of us

go through. All of us have had it. Herb Dean can tell you. Herod can tell you. You know, Belcher can tell you all the time. But oh, yeah, I screwed up on them. and I got to fix it. You know, we all go through it, but you got to be able to get back up. Because it doesn't happen in the last part of the night. It usually happens to your first or second fight you're roughing over that night.

You still got two more to go. You have to shake it off and make it to walk in and do it again. Yeah, it's funny you say about the timekeeper. I remember maybe you remember this. I don't want to toss anybody in particular or under the bus here. I think it was in New Jersey when Anthony Johnson fought Ander Alovsky, and the round went on for like an extra like 10 or 12 seconds. And I think, if I remember correctly,

it was in that 10 or 12 seconds when Johnson brought. broke Arlofsky's jaw, if I remember correctly. It was like after the round was like five minutes and 12 seconds because we all went back and timed it and we're like, oh man, like this was bad. It was way over. Yeah, it was way over. It was like 512, I think. It was crazy.

But that's what you're talking about. Like, again, we all talk about it because that's like a really egregious situation where a guy got hurt. But we never talk about a round stopping on time or, you know, a time, you know, when Jorge Mazelol sparks Ben Ascran and gets a five second knockout. You know, we're not talking about that, but that's actually part of the timekeeper's job that she, the day, whoever that was, time did it five seconds.

Got to hit that button. Shut that clock off. Got to hit that button, you know, and the thing is, is like you talk about, I won't, I won't name names, but somebody hit me up on, uh, text me the day. It was like, California, California commission, stupid. It's the dumbest commission the country.

Why? Half were just fans and half of them are just fans of me and the other half don't even know anything, don't even know anything about MMA. Like, well, that, that's a weird because everybody's like, blue belt or higher in jiu-jitsu or their amateur boxers or their amateur wrestlers that have all competed at a high level. And then when they got older, they jumped into the commission. So all of us are understanding the sport of Rameh.

And yeah, some of the inspectors and some of the guys come from boxing, but like our inspectors, I mean, crap, we have like three Brazilian jitia world champs, our inspectors and three former boxing world champs are inspectors. You're like, what don't you like about our commission? Like, what's the problem with the commission? I don't understand it. Like, this doesn't explain to me, like, how they're, how they're stupid and how they're silly. The problem is they know more about the sport than this particular individual does.

Right? And so that individual is like, they're stupid or dumb. They don't know what they're talking about. But no, but they do. The problem is, is that you have perceived perception of how the sport is actually going on. And we talked about this before, where most people don't know the rules, the regulation of what goes on, of how it actually is governed. And so when you start talking about governing people and talking about this is what has to happen with the, this thing and that thing and that thing, people get really upset.

If they think it's not within their pre-perceived notion of how this stuff should work, they're on some other space, right? You're like, well, no, but actually what it should be is how this should be done is this way. This is how it's supposed to be done. No, it's not. It's not supposed to be done. It's not to do it in this jurisdiction or this jurisdiction. Well, I'm just telling you this is how we do in California,

and California is the best jurisdiction in MMA and boxing because we have the most events. Like, that's just what it is. We don't tell you, you know, I will say this in Andy, Fosters, Andy Foster's, uh, comeuppance, he does go to other jurisdictions to talk to the other commissioners and executive officers to be around them. But when there's a big show in town, they're all here. They're all coming here to talk to us, right? They're not, sitting back in their jurisdictions, not hanging out with us. They're here talking with us. They're here talking to Andy. What about this? What about that? What do you feel about this thing? What about

that thing? Now, Andy is friends with a lot of these guys, so they're here catching up. about family life and how the kids and what's going on with this thing and that thing, but we're also talking about rules and regulations. And you're figuring out new stuff and in California, because of the way Andy runs it, if he decided today and he decides to text me right now on my phone to tell me this is a new regulation that we are doing, it is no longer two hands down. This is the one hand came in California. It is no longer two hands down for a down opponent.

It's not one hand. And we're not doing just one hand. It has to have weight bearing. So for us to understand weight bearing has to be flat or has to be a fist. It's the only way we know that you have weight on that hand is flat or fist. So the Spider-Man Pose is not a down opponent. We either have you flat or fist. We got that text message on a Sunday morning after an event where something happened.

I didn't work the events. It was a small show. So we had that event and decided to change the rules. The next weekend, it was a rule in the California Commission. The next weekend, it didn't take six months, didn't take nine months, didn't have to get approved. Andy made it happen. So that's why California is the best because we can flow with what's going on. we can make rules change that makes sense to everybody.

And then the year later, it became part of the ABC Council. But we don't even doing it. We're already doing it. Then it became a rule later, right? But California already did it. Why? Because we saw it was a problem. We saw it had to be issued.

So everyone comes into Cal leader, talk to Andy because this is, when you say the gold standard, he really is the gold standard. The best commission for MAA in boxing is California. Because we have the most events. Like with COVID, with all this stuff, but people forget, Dale O'Horia runs Wednesday, night and I think it's Wednesday night and Friday night. Every week, 52 weeks a year, he runs boxing events. Wednesday and Friday nights. Every week, they're all in California.

So it's like the commission here gets to work boxing all the time. M.A. There is between Sacramento and San Francisco all the down to San Diego, there is probably four or five MMA events every Friday, Saturday night throughout the state. Every single weekend, 52 weeks week's week. Every weekend, there's something going on. We just have the most amount. You know, this is the reason why. When you go to like, you know, I don't want to, like Wyoming or Tennessee or Montana, they have four fights a year.

How much experience can those guys get? Yeah. The refs, the judges, the inspectors. How much experience can you get? You can't. You have no reps. You don't have no reps. And ours, we get a sheer ton of reps, a shit ton of reps.

All the time you get reps. It's like, it's incredible, which is why it's the gold standard. It's right, California is the best commission that comes to that kind of stuff because of it. And that, you know, and that's why we're, you know, And that's why when New York started their commission, they reached out to Andy. Like, how do we set that commission up correctly? And that's why Todd Anderson, the referee, is now the head of MMA for the state of New York. He moved from Toronto.

He now lives in New York City. And he now runs the MMA portion of New York because it's getting so big down it. And they're going to rival. They're going to rival. The state of New York is going to rival the state of California, the amount of NMA events that are thrown every year. Like that's going to be fun. That's going to be fun, right? Seeing where it goes.

Because people think New York, what do they always think? Massacre Garden. Dude, you forgot about Syracuse, Albany, Ithaca, Buffalo, Rochester. Like, these are other cities that throw fights all the time, all the time. There's a 10th planet in Rochester, New York. You don't think that those guys don't throw MMA fights up there, right? There's a 10, I think there's a Diaz brothers affiliate in Buffalo that they always, there's always events up there.

So this is like going to be great year for MMA, a great year for MMA. A great year for M&A, now things are starting to loosen up a little bit and things are starting to get swear about COVID. Like, it's going to be a great year for MMA. There's been a lot of fights. a lot of minor leagues. And I guarantee you go to the local shows because there's going to be somebody in that local show

that you're going to see in two years will be fighting on the big show for a title fight. He was like, oh, I've watched this guy since he was a little kid in, you know, in Albany, New York. I saw him who's 18 years old. Look him now, he's 24, and he's getting ready to fight for the title. I watched this whole career. Yeah, that's how it works.

That's how it goes. Yeah, it's funny you say that one of the greatest lessons that Ryan ever taught me, and I always pass along whenever, people reach out to me and say, how do I get into MMA journalism? How do I start, you know, doing this? And I always tell people, you know, two keys. I say, one, don't expect to make any

money right away because in the entire MMA journalist business, there's maybe 20 to 25 of us. They're full-time journalists. Like, this is all we do. For one, I said, for two, go to local shows because that's where you're going to meet fighters. That's how I met Kenny Florian years

ago, years ago. I met him because he was coming out. That's how I met, I would say half the people I met, I met from Joseph Benavita, a great example, met him on a regional show, and then he got called up to fight Kiyamamoto. Now, the fight got canceled, but I had interviewed him. Nobody never interviewed him. He'd not, I don't think he had done

really interviews. I met Gina Carano through that. Gina Carano was having a fight in K-1. Yeah. One fight, I think, on a record, never I'm almost positive she had never done an interview before. And she's like, why are you interviewing me? And so we did an interview, and then, you know, we just, you know,

I still, to this day, talked to Gina occasionally. But that's, I tell people all the time, start at the local level, start at the regional level, because the guy or the girl who is the opening fight on the prelims or the opening fight on a 14 fight card, there's a good chance a year from now, two years, now, three years from now, they're going to become Kamar Usman. They're going to become, you know, Francis Inganu. They're going to be, like, I saw Misha Tate fighting hook and shoot back in the day in Evansville, Indiana. You know what I mean? You know what I mean? Like, that's how, that's how you find you. Like at the time I had no idea what Misha Tate was.

I didn't know, like, Misha Tait was her first fight. I had no idea who she was. Now, you know, everybody knows Misha Tate. That's how you get in. That's how you meet people. Yeah. I mean, that's, it's, you know, it's a weird, it's a weird thing. Everybody wants to go cover Major League Baseball.

But the best reporter is the ones that started out of Rookie Ball. Like, what did you, how did you follow this guy? Dude, I haven't followed by Limer Gamera since he was on Rookie Ball. What? Rookie ball. Yeah, you might be one. Rookie Ball, AAA, then made the bigs. and became the guy we all know.

Like that's how it started. And I followed him the whole time, the whole way through. Like, yeah, but how did you get moved up? Because I had his phone over. I was able to get in touch with him. Nobody else was able to get in touch with him. Hey, I know you. Can you give me his number?

Nope. We'll not give him his number. You want the interview? I do the interview. Okay, I guess you're coming up to the big show. Yeah. I'm coming up to the big show. It's true.

It's very true. Trigg, I don't want to tell you up anymore, man. I know you said you're getting ready to make dinner. And here I am keeping you on the podcast forever. I tell you what, though. you know, we did, you know, back in the day, we co-hosted shows, we did, you know, co-hosting, pop on with the M. Weakly with Sound Off and all these different things. And of course, you did all kinds of different things.

You're still doing things. Got to make this more regular occurrence. I know you're incredibly busy guy. But like, when I hit you up, I was just like, you know, it's kind of crazy that we don't talk and have you on the show more. So, expect me to bug you more often because. Yeah. When I'm around, I'm around. Like, you know, and even if I'm in Hawaii.

six hours difference from you. You're still in Pennsylvania, right? Ohio. Ohio. Okay. Same, same. I was. I was.

I did live in Pennsylvania. Yes, I did live in Pittsburgh for a long time. Same crappy state. Doesn't matter. Ohio, Pennsylvania. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. My dad's in Cleveland.

Back off. Don't pick on me. So they're, when I'm around and we're out. You know, I have time. I have time. It's not a problem. Like, it's really not.

The biggest issue is like those, those, and I have to tell everybody this, this caveat. Right now, as of right now, I am free. And then tomorrow, like, hey, dude, I'm sorry, I told you I'll not be there on Friday. I got picked up. I don't know how time to get to rap.

If you're rapping time, I'll be there. If not, then we'll do Saturday morning. Okay, we'll do a Saturday morning. But if it's like, you know, like a lot of people have like the live radio show. Yeah. You know, certain trust you at certain times. I'm like, can't do it. I can't guarantee I'll be there.

I cannot guarantee I'll be there. You know, Super Bowl's coming to L.A. And I got a couple of things I got to do for some radio guys. And I all of a sudden may not be here. I might be in, well, I know for sure. When is Subal, the 13? February 13th, that was the, yeah. So I know for sure that I'm in Sacramento, the 12th roughing,

and I might have to be in Hawaii still working on a 9-N-P-I-I-I. So I might not be able to do the TV, the radio show that I was supposed to do, that they're trying to promote me on. I keep telling them, don't promote me because there's no guarantee of it either. I can't really help. I really can't. Maybe we can vote if you want, but then I'm like, I don't show, you know, my five fans will be mad.

Don't do it. Well, Trigg, I appreciate taking the time, as always, man. Like I said, we'll stay in better touch. And congrats on all the work, man. Like I said, I geeked out when I sell you on Book of Boba Fett. I always root for my friends. I always root for my friend's success. When I saw that, I fully geeked out.

I'm not going to lie. And, you know, keep up to great work. And, yeah, let's catch up again soon, all right? Absolutely. Thanks, dear. I appreciate it so much, bud. All right, talk to you soon, buddy. And there you go.

That is another edition of the Fighter versus the writer in the books. I want to say a big thank you, of course, to the great Frank Trigg for joining me on the show this week. make sure you check us out on all your favorite podcast platforms Apple Spotify Amazon Google Podcasts and of course over on MMAFighting.com And we will see you next week for another edition of the Fighter versus the Rider Thanks for tuning in and we will see you then

The Vox Media Podcast Network