MMA Fighting - Fighter vs. Writer: Joe Lauzon Reveals Differences Working with Joe Silva and Sean Shelby; Mike Jackson Brands Dean Barry as a ‘Cheater’ After DQ

Episode Date: April 26, 2022

On episode 33 of The Fighter vs. The Writer, Joe Lauzon stops by to preview his upcoming fight against Donald “Cowboy” Cerrone at UFC 274 and what led to his return after nearly three years away. Lauzon will also discuss the differences he’s found with the UFC since the previous ownership team under Lorenzo Fertitta sold the company to Endeavor in 2016. Lauzon also details his plans for any future fights and if he’ll ever actually use the word retirement when it comes to his career. Also on the show this week, Mike Jackson drops by following a disappointing end in his fight against Dean Barry at UFC Vegas 52. Jackson gives his side of a disqualification win after he suffered a brutal eye gouge in the first round that left him unable to compete. Jackson also offers a fiery response to Barry saying he was looking for a way out of the fight when he said he wasn’t able to continue. All this and more on the latest episode of The Fighter vs. The Writer! Subscribe: Apple Podcasts Subscribe: Spotify Read More: MMA Fighting Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Back to the Fighter versus the Writer. I'm your host, as always, Damon Martin. And today I'm happy to welcome in, one of my favorite people to talk to. We go back many years and he's got a fight coming up at UFC 274 and got a lot to talk about with him. Welcome in, Joe Luzon. Joe, how are you? I'm good. Thanks for having me.

Absolutely, man. You know, it's funny. When I first had the concept for this podcast, you were actually one of the first people I reached out to and said, hey, you got to come on and co-host my podcast with me, and you said you were down and here we go. We're finally getting a chance to do it. Of course. I'm always down. Whatever you, whatever you need. I got you. Well, I appreciate that. So Joe, how is everything? Obviously, here we are two weeks out from the fight. I know, even though you haven't fought in a couple of years, you're always training. You're always in the gym, working with your guys. So how is it

being back in a fight camp? Uh, I like it. I remember the parts that I don't like about it too, right? There's like, you got this nagging injury. You get this. You get that. You got to kind of train around a little bit. So like, I don't love that part of it. But overall, I love being back in fight camp. I was getting a little fat during the pandemic, getting like a little tubby. But I feel good. I'm glad to be back in everything.

Everything just kind of clicked back in place. I didn't know how I was going to go because it had been a while, but everything just clicked right back in. It was like riding a bike. Yeah. We talked before and after your last fight. And at that point, you know, everyone, you know, even you said, you know, the talk of retirement comes up and you understood that,

but you didn't want to retire because you said, listen, you know, if something interesting comes up, I'll do it. Maybe I won't, but maybe I will. During that time away, like, do you stay in touch with the UFC? Like, do they reach out to say, hey, Joe, do you want to fight? Do you want to do this? Because I know contracts have, like, an expiration date if you're not fighting. So how does that work?

Like, do you just call them up, say, hey, I'm ready to fight again? Like, how did it work with that time off? Yeah, I mean, so it's a whole bunch of, like, legal crap that goes anywhere, right? So it's like, they messaged me and like, hey, do you want to fight? Do you want to fight in this date? And I'm like, eh, maybe not that quick. And then, like, okay, no problem. And then I got like an email from like the legal department.

Well, you passed on a fight. So you have been extended until your next fight or whatever. It's just like that kind of stuff happens. But I've been talking to Sean Shelby. Like I, you know, I was, I was very upfront what was going on. Like I had no interest in fighting during the pandemic whatsoever. Like they were like, you know, we're fighting and, you know, hopefully this fight's going to happen. You know, like we're two weeks out, whatever it is.

You know, but like I did not want to do an entire training camp and then have the fight not happen. Right. I felt like there was like this big like COVID variable that was there. that I was not really didn't want to mess with so much. But I think we're in a much better place now. I felt more confident about it. So last like spring, you know, I talked to Sean Shelby and like, hey, look, I would like to fight again. You know, sometime, you know, maybe this summer gave me, you know, the right person, right time, whatever.

He's like, okay, he's like, I'll get back to you soon. And then got to be like fall time, like August. I'm like, hey, what's going on? He's like, oh, like, you know, like, we're thinking about this. We're thinking about that. And then eventually, you know, I'm like, hey, like, what's, What's going on? He's like, what do you think about fighting cowboy?

And when he offered me cowboy the first time, it was like four weeks notice or something like that. It was like first week in February. And he's like, oh, you want to fight cowboy? I think it was March 8th. I'm like, no. I'm like, I like, I like the idea of fighting cowboy, but it's just not that quick. You know, like, I don't, if I'm going to do this, I need to like the opponent, the date,

the location. I have to have all three. If I'm going to fight again, I had to like all three. I'm not, I'm like, my gym's doing great. So I don't need to fight. Like, I feel like sometimes guys, like, they, they retire. but then they're not having as much success to making money as they would have liked. So then they come back and like, oh, I'm going to fight again because they need the money.

And that is not, I'm not in that situation. That is not my problem whatsoever. I just, I like fighting. I like training. So I'm like, no, I'm all set. Like I don't want to do anything on short notice. I like, I like fighting cowboy, but I don't like fight on short notice. And then he moved this to April.

He's like, okay, he's like, cowboy wants to fight right away. So I'm like, okay, well, that's not good work for me. So like, you'll have to find someone else. And then they come back. Okay, how about April 30th? and that was a better time. And then, you know, but then there was going to be the apex, so got moved to now May 7th.

So it's like that was kind of like how all the offseason stuff kind of happened for me. It was like, I kept communication open with them, but I wasn't like busting their balls. Like, oh, get me a fight. I want to fight. I was just, hey, keep me in mind. That's all this. How is it working with Sean Shelby versus Joe Silva?

Because you were a Joe Silva guy for the longest time. We talked about him. I think when he actually left the UFC, we talked about that when he retired because Joe is one of those guys. Joe is one of the most brutally honest people I've ever met in this sport. And I know you dealt with Joe quite a bit. I mean, over the year. So how is it working with Sean versus Joe?

So I like dealing with Sean. It's okay. It's definitely Joe Sovo is definitely better because the volume is different, right? Back when Joe Sovo was doing with, there were way less fights or way less cards. Now it's kind of a volume thing. You know, Sean's putting together so many fights per year, whereas Joseph was putting together less. It's definitely a little bit like Joe Sova's like, if you're less, you know,

life depended on it, you could call him and he would pick up. Like, I could call him right now and he would pick up for sure. I haven't talked to the guy in three years probably. But if I call it to him right now, he would pick up. He's just, some people like that. Sean is not the best sometimes a little bit hard to get a hold of him. But it's just, again, it's just a volume thing. What he really needs is he needs, like, an assistant or he needs help or they need,

they need like, almost like need a different matchmaker for each division or something. There's just so many fights going on. And every single fighter, fighters are such divas. Every single fighter is like their next fight. is the most important thing in, like, their entire universe. And for Sean, it's like, eh, he's making, like, 12 fights on a car, or it's fix fights on a car, whatever it's going to be. It's like, it's just like it's the numbers thing.

So it's, he's trying to get matchups to happen. And everyone else wants to, like, they got to talk to their coaches. They got to talk to this, which I understand, like, I do the same thing. I have to talk to my coaches. I have to talk to my, you know, my people. But some fighters are really, really difficult. I do not envy that position at all. You are, and I mean this is a compliment.

that you've never been like a super controversial guy trying to stir up, you know, trouble, you know, trying to stir up issues in terms of like issues with the UFC. Now, you'll speak out if you have an issue, but you're not the guy who's constantly like, you know, just kind of like banging the drum about one thing or another. But that being said, do you feel like, I mean, because again, you're one of the few guys I can speak to about this that like the culture of the UFC has changed dramatically under the new ownership, under new matchmakers. Because, again, it wasn't a much different world under Lorenzo and Dan.

and Joe Silva versus now you got Hunter, you got Sean. Of course, Mick is a different division from you? But Mick, I mean, is it a different world? Like, is it a night and day or is it still fairly similar? Like, how is it for you? Because you're one of the few guys who's been around a lot of eras of the UFC. You know, it's involved. It's like anything else.

You know, I think that like, you know, for a lack of, I'm going to like overly blow this out of proportion, right? But Lorenzo Fetta bought the UFC. He's a big fight fan, right? He basically gave Dana free reign to do whatever he wanted. gave Joe Silverfreen to do whatever he wanted. You know, they kind of, hey, we got this idea. It might not make the best business sense, but we think it'd be really cool.

And Lorenzo be like, do it, whatever you guys want. You know, bonuses here, whatever's going to go on, right? It was like Lorenzo's like kind of like his like pet project, right? Like it was, you ended making some good money on it. But like initially it was just like he was just having fun with it. And it wasn't like really run like a super tight business. It was like kind of like his side hustle, I guess, you could say. Whereas now Endeavor owns it.

Endeavor wants the UFC to make money. So it's very, very different in that regard. You know, now it's, it's more like, you know, it's by the book and it's math and it's numbers and things like that. You know, like it's, you don't have like, you know, billionaire Lorenzo's like, oh, this thing would be awesome to do it. It makes no sense whatsoever, but it'd be awesome. So we're going to do it.

You know, like it's different now. So of course it's going to change. It's going to evolve. I think that there's like as it changes and evolves, like good stuff and bad stuff is come of it. You know what I mean? Like there's the pay has gone up quite a bit. Like my first friend in UFC, I followed Jen's Pol,

for three and three. You know what I mean? Like now it's like coming to the U.S. like you're like 12 and 12, something like that starting out. So it's gone up quite a bit. It's different with sponsors and everything else. It's just like the U.S.

is like this big media powerhouse, really. So of course it's change is different. You know, it's, I don't think it's, I think it would be bad if it stayed the same. I think if it didn't continue to evolve, it wouldn't continue to grow, it wouldn't be where it's at today.

Yeah. Is there, if there's one downside to that, and again, you know, we could get into the minutia of it. I'm not going to do that. But if there's one downside of that, if there's one thing I remember about the old days in the UFC, and again, the sports grown, we all understand things are going to change. Like you said, everything evolves. But there was

like a real, even with the, even with conflicts, like even when like Dana was at odds with like Tito and things we get so nasty, like in the press and things between them, the UFC still kind of felt like a family in a way. Like it was so small, close-knit, you know, there was only so many people in the office. Like I said, you only dealt with Joe Silva. Like I'm sure you didn't deal with 19 other people, you know what I mean? Not to say you do now, but like, you know, now it does feel like a business. Now, that's not wrong. There's nothing wrong with that. But I have

talked to a few fighters and said, yeah, you know, it's not as much fun as it once was because there was just a certain atmosphere dealing with the UFC that was different then. And it just, it did feel like a family. Even when you were at odds with them, much like you'd be at odds with like a parent or a brother or a sister. Versus now it is such a business machine that

you know, you kind of become another cog in the machine. And again, that's how businesses are run. We all understand that. It's how corporates or, you know, corporations are run. If you work at a Starbucks in Seattle, it doesn't mean you know the boss and the CEO of Starbucks. But how is it for you? Because again, I know some guys I've talked to said,

yeah, you know, it does kind of suck. Like it's just not the same anymore. Like, not say it takes away their passion for fighting, but you know, it's just a different animal now. It's just different. You know, like, it used to be that, you know, you know, the Bert Watson left the UFC, right? They hired like 10 guys to do his job. You know, it was

awesome before and you just like had a great relationship with Bert. My coaches flew Bert out to my wedding. I fucking love Bert Watson. Right. So like anything I need, I beg, hey, Bert, what's going on with this? And he'd be like, look around and be like, oh, we're not supposed to be doing it like this. But, you know, you could ask this person about this. You know, it kind of like, you get kind of like, like, inside kind of voice a little bit. You know what I mean? Like you kind of get a better relationship with people and people a little bit more willing to like extend themselves a little bit for you. Now it's like, it's like this big corporate environment where everyone's kind of

protect themselves. It's all run by the book because if they don't do it by the book, it's not going to be like, oh, well, like, well, that's, that's Joe. That's okay. He can do that. That's not what they're supposed to do, but Joe can get, you know, joke can do that. Now it's like, hey, you're not supposed to let this happen. You get to go talk to this person. You get in trouble with their boss and this, it's just like, it's different. It's just, it's, that's how things grow. You know, it's the same like, you know, so I run a martial art school, right? We got like a little over 300 students now, right? It's different now than it was when there were 60 students, right?

It's just, it's better in some ways. It's probably a little bit less personal in other ways. But it's just, that's just the way things grow. That's just the way it goes. You know, I think it's a good problem that the UFC has that they're growing like this. You know, but it's, it is a little different, of course. Yeah. Now, you mentioned before, of course, when you're, you know, you're deciding about fighting again.

You know, again, you weren't hounded in the UFC, but you said, hey, I want to get ready to fight. And, you know, you waited some time and you did your own thing. And eventually they came back with you. with the cowboy fight. Now, when the cowboy fight got announced, I was like, oh, yeah, this is a great fight, like, couple, you know, a pair of legends, guys who've been around the sport forever. The last time you got a prospect, now, you went out there and starched him, you know, very, very quickly got a big win. But at this stage of your career, like, is it more meaningful?

Like, I talked to Jim Miller, and I know Jim's in a little different situation because Jim's, like, I'm going to fight until I get to UFC 300. I want to do all these kind of things, and he's still very, very active, and he's, you know, he's taken on veterans and he's taking on prospects. At this stage of your career, is there, like, is it just about the, the timing? Was this one more about the cowboy fight? Was it like in terms like what you're looking at now versus the field when you look at the future? Because I know everything for you right now, unless I'm wrong, and please correct me if I am, it's kind of one fight at a time. Like if you want to fight again after cowboy, you'll fight again. If you don't, you don't.

But what is the most meaningful thing to you right now in terms of fighting? Is it getting a guy like cowboy or is it just like fighting on your timeline? It's just fighting on my terms. I mean, I guess the big thing. Like I, you know, for the last fight against Jonathan Pierce, you know, he was not become a guy, but we kind of like the, we did not like, we did not love the stylistic matchup initially. We actually said we did not want to fight him initially. And then Sean kind of pushed back up, but he's like, look, it's a good matchup.

It makes sense. If you want to fight this to the kid, it's like, okay, so we gradually accepted Jonathan Pierce. And then, like, we did great. You know, we won the fight flawlessly. Everything was good. And then we took some time off. And then when the cowboy fight came up, it just, that was just kind of how it played out. Like, we liked the opponent.

We liked the date. We liked the location, roughly. So we're okay with it. It's going to be the same thing going forward. Like it's, it's like a flexibility and freedom thing. You know what I mean? Like it's the only real downside to, you know, saying no to the fights and staying, you know,

unretired is Usada. And they can come and they can bang on my door. They can do it if they want. It doesn't, it doesn't bother me. Like, I don't do anything. Like it's, I've never had like a whereabouts failure with Usada and all these years. So we get like a few a year or something like that.

It's like I've had zero ever. So it's, It's, it's, it's never been like a problem. It's never been like anything, any kind of work for me dealing with Usada. So it's like if I can just stay in a contract and I can potentially be offered fights. And if a fight comes in way, hey, you want to make a whole bunch of money and go and do something you enjoy doing? I'm like, yes, let's do that. I like the idea of that, you know, during the cutaway fight, like, you know, the entire camp.

If something happened and like I got banged up and I couldn't fight, I would not have felt pressure like, oh, I have to do this fight. Like, hey, I'm sorry, I'm out. I hurt this, I hurt that, I hurt whatever. I'm out, you know, see you guys later. I don't feel pressure. It's not like I'm dependent on the, you said, my gym's doing great. I'm not, I don't need the money to live on. It's obviously, it's nice to go and make money to do something you enjoy doing and love doing.

But I'm not like, I have like complete flexibility. I have complete control. Like I can do whatever I want. If I want to fight, I'm going to fight. If I don't want to fight, I'm not going to fight. I don't feel pressure. It's not like, I think sometimes when people like, they might leave a job, they might do whatever.

and now it's like, well, this is the only real way that they make money is by fighting. And that's just not my situation anymore. So I just like the flexibility. Again, you know, we're going to fight cowboy. And, you know, if the fight goes well, and, you know, we'll keep the door open and we'll fight again. The fight goes well, we'll probably like, all right, maybe that's, maybe that's the end of it. That'd be the end of it. You know, we're not going to fight again.

You know, you brought up Jim Miller. Jim Miller mentioned after his last fight that he would like to maybe fight the winner of me and Cowboy. You know, maybe we do that a third time. Does it make sense to me to fight Jim Miller a third time? not really. You know, like he beat me the first time. Officially he beat me the second time,

but I thought I won the fight. A lot of people thought I won the fight. So do we go, does it make sense to go fight Jimo a third time? Probably not, but it'd be fun. I like gym. I like training.

Get paid to go and, you know, fight you. I don't know. We just kind of see. Like, I'm just, I like the flexibility

and not being like pushing out of a corner. I think sometimes like you got to do when it's your job. I'm sure you do this too. Like, it's your job. You have to do something. You don't want to do something. sometimes. It's just like everyone's, that's just how your job goes. You know, and I just,

I think that my current situation is like, I'm not stuck. I don't have to do anything I don't want to do. If I want to fight, I'm going to fight. If I don't want to fight. If I don't want to fight, I'm not going to fight. Do you think, and this is a weird one to ask, because I know the answer is eventually, but do you think you ever actually retire, Joe? And the reason I say that is like, you know, of course at some point, you know, you're going to get maybe to an age where you're just like, you know, with your kids and like, you're 45, you're not going to fight again, but you're never going to make a big deal of and say I'm going to retire because I remember talking you about this, I think it was before the Jonathan Pierce fight. And he said, I'm just, I'm not going to

retire because I want to have the flexibility. If I do want to fight, I'll fight. And here we are, you know, two years, two years plus later, you're fighting. So when I say never, I don't mean never. I just mean like in this, in this day and age, do you feel like you'll ever retire in that way, like until it just gets to the point where you're just, you know, you're older and you're just not going to fight anymore? Like, is there, do you think you'll ever actually make that declaration? So I think the problem that, you know, fighters run into is, and I did not want to do this, is, you know, like, so I got, you know, two fights ago, I got my butt kicked, right? And then, like, you know, we took some time off.

We didn't fight for a while. I did not want that to be in the last fight. I fought Chris Grudezumacher. And then we fought Jonathan Pierce. And now we won that fight, right? So I said in the post-front interview, I'm not going to be one of these guys. Like, oh, I'm back. Here we go.

Here we go. We're going to keep our fighting. It's like, that's not the case. Like, I had a good night. It was a great night for me. me. But I'm not, I'm not thinking that I'm 22 years old and I'm still going to keep, I'm back to, you know, my, my best prime form. Like, I don't think that's the case. I think I'm in really good shape. I think I'm probably better than I've ever been before. But like age, age catches

up to us all, right? So like if I go out and I beat Cowboy, Donald Seroni, and, you know, let's say that it goes just like my last fight and I smash him, I dominate it, whatever happens, right? You know, I'm not going to convince me, oh, I'm back. Here we go. Fly me up. I don't give me that it's like, no, it's not the case. You know, like it's, um, but if I go out and I get smashed by cowboy, right? You know, that's probably going to be more of like a definitive, like, okay, we're probably done now, you know, because the problem all these, a lot of fighters ran into is like, they win and they think they're back on top.

And then they keep on rolling the dice until they get smashed and they lose. Like, oh, they should. And it's always like, oh, you should have gone out. You know, and maybe I should have gone out my last fight. Maybe my last fight should have been my last fight. you know maybe maybe cowboy smashes me and I get beat up and like I go out on loss and I retire and that's my last fight ever that I mean it's possible um you know but I like the matchup I like I like the matchable I'm not like being delusional thinking oh I'm gonna go and you know do this

and do that and whatever like but it's a good matchup I think the fight makes sense I'm not fighting a 20 year old kid that's coming off of like smashing people um fighting a guy that's like my age that's had similar experience um I think people are excited about it I guess I saw some comments on Reddit like, oh, this would have been a good fight back in 2015. Like you motherfucker. Like, but I think it's going to be an exciting fight. Like, I think I can go to local amateur fights and watch like an awesome fight between two amateur guys that are evenly matched up.

And it's a great fight and it's entertaining. I think that, you know, cowboy and I are going to fight. I think we're evenly matched up. I think we're in the same ballpark as far as like experience and in time in and health and everything else. And we go out there and we're going to smash. other you're like i'm going to try to you know go out and get on him he's going to try and beat me up it's just that's the way it's going to go um so i don't think that i don't think that it's a it's a

definitive thing for me about being done unless i get beat up pretty bad then okay it's okay we're done you know like if i go in and i beat cowboy then it's just going to be up in the air just like it is now like oh maybe we'll fight jim miller maybe we'll do this maybe we'll do that you know maybe we just like maybe we'll i maybe want me to fight jimler but i won't like the time or the location or whatever i got i don't know um But I just like the flexibility, you know, kind of similar when we talked last time. Like I just, if it makes sense from me, I'll do it. If it doesn't make sense, like, all right, I have no problem to them.

Oh, I'm good. Thank you, though. Yeah, it's funny. I haven't, I'll be honest. I haven't talked to Cowboy in probably year and a half maybe, something like that. It's been a little while so I spoke to him. But I think we all know Cowboys mentality. Cowboy is, you know, very much like, I don't know that Cowboys on that mentality where he wins one.

He says, I'm going to go for the title again. But Cowboy doesn't strike me as the guy who's like looking long term. Maybe he does. I mean, he's got kids and everything, but he's not, he's never been that guy to think three fights down the road, maybe I'll be done. And, you know,

and listen, he's been on a bit of a bad run here. I mean, we can't deny that. He's had a couple of TKO losses. You know, he's had, you know,

he got to the point where, you know, we had the whole Dana thing where Dana's like, maybe it's time for Cowboy to walk away. And I think that's, that would be, in my opinion,

one of the most difficult conversations UOC has ever having a fighter because Cowboy is such a fighter that he's like the guy, I feel like you'd have to wheel him out to get him to like stop fighting. Now maybe that's changed. So I don't want to put words this. Maybe this last year and a half he's completely changed his demeanor, his family.

And he's like, you know what, maybe this is his last fight. I have no idea. I'm just playing the odds of how we know Cowboy. Does that change? I don't say it changes that dynamic because the fight's still the fight. But like, you're not going in there thinking, man, I got to win this one or man. You know, I'm in my batch against the wall and I need the money. And, you know, you said, you're doing this for you.

It's fun. You like fighting. It's not because you need the money. it's not because you're trying to prove something you just like fighting now cowboy maybe in literally the opposite position because his last fight out you know lost to alice marina they're like maybe you should retire man maybe you're taking a lot of damage blah blah blah like does that i know it doesn't change your perspective on the fight but do you feel like that does kind of allow you to just go in and be yourself in a fight whereas cowboy it feels like he needs it like he needs

this if he's going to continue fighting he needs this win or he might have that conversation with Dana where he's like, you know what, man, like we love you, you know, we're going to give you like an ambassador role, like the old school, like Chuck Liddell thing, I don't know, but like, do you feel like that is like a real possibility here? Like the pressure is 100. I mean, I don't think even if his demeanor's changed, I think the pressure is 100% on him because he's always been that guy. I want to fight eight times a year.

I want to fight this guy. And it was, you know, two years ago, it's like, I'm going to make a run for the title again. So I think that Cowboy and I are very different in like our focus. So, like, I think that I am probably more. more focused on this fight than Cowboys have been focused on this fight, right? Because I'm just, I like doing tedious, monotonous things. I like getting dialed in. I like focusing on one thing. Like, um, I think that Cowboy just kind of does like a lot of things all the time, right? And I think

he's done that his entire career, his entire life. Like, I don't think it's a case of like, oh, he's just not paying attention to it now. I think that like he always wants to fight. He's always taking short notice, you know, like I did not like taking short notice fights, right? Like, I like to have an entire camp. I like game planning for someone. I like watching. film. I like breaking it down. I like getting sparring partners that are going to give me that same look. I like getting drilling partners to give me the same look. I like working on very specific things and game plans and outcomes and scenarios, right? I don't think that's cowboy at all. Like that's how I've always been. I've been a little more analytical. I think he's just like,

yeah, we're going to fight. Like I don't, I don't know if he's done a whole lot that's been specific to me. I'm sure he's done some stuff. I'm sure he's got some game plan, but I just think he kind of does his thing, you know, you know, like he's posts on Instagram. He's like out on the boat and he's doing this and he's racing this and he's driving this and all sort of stuff and like and i don't think it's a case of him not taking the fight seriously i just think that that's just kind of more how his his motor runs a little bit right it's like that's just what he does like that's what that's how he's always going to both things so we're different you know but i don't know that like this is like like for me it's like i'm having fun because it's going to be a fun fight right for cowboy i think

it's kind of similar and this is just one of the many ways that he makes money you know he's got all these different sponsors and he's got the ranch he's good at this he's got that and like um you know he just i think he's got a lot of different kind of streams of revenue and this is just one of them i don't think this is like his primary source his biggest thing like he's doing acting he's doing this he's doing that like he's he's got a lot more going on so i think that i'm a little bit more focused on the fight than he is um but i think it's just like this is just like a smaller part of his life whereas i think it's a bigger part of my life right now yeah yeah it's interesting because like i said like cowboys that i I just, it's weird, like, you guys are both veterans,

you both been around. When this fight got made, I'm not even, I'm not even joke when I saw it's like, oh, man, I can't wait to see the rematch. Yeah. Because it was like,

it was like one of those things, I'm like, oh, man, this can be a great rematch. I'm not even kidding, Joe, I had to like scour your record. I was like, they fought before, right?

Like, they did. No, you didn't. Like, this is one of those ones. But it is, it is an interesting one. Because, like I said, I feel like, even though you guys are both veterans, you both been around the UFC forever.

it does feel like you guys are in two very different places going into this. Like now again, maybe Cowboys' demeanor has completely changed in the last year and a half where he's like, you know, I'm not chasing the title, whatever it is anymore. But it is interesting because, like I said, all those little things, you know, whether it's like you just had a kid or you just got married or you just got divorced or whatever. All these little things outside the fight can play into the fight. I think we always kind of forget about that a little bit. Because when you get in the fight, you know, we talk about injuries and things like that,

but there's so many other things that can affect you. I know he's been doing acting and all these other things. Like, I am curious what cowboy we're going to get here. I don't think he's looking past you. I don't think he's not training, those kind of things. But the mental focus is real. Like, you're doing this for you. You're having fun.

You like it. You're going to a fight camp. I do kind of wonder where he's at. Like, what is his demeanor? You know, he doesn't do a lot of interviews. He doesn't really talk about it much. So I'm kind of curious where he's at. Yeah.

I mean, it's going to be excited. I think that's kind of one of the things that's kind of like intriguing about it. Right. You just don't know what you're going to get. you know, you just, we don't know what we're going to, what we're going to get out of this, you know, um, you know, you brought up a couple times like the opponents he's had in the tough fights. Like he's fought killer after killer after killer in his last couple fights. So his, his last few fights have not been wins, but he's fought some absolute monsters.

You know, I think that's something people don't realize to either. You know, he's fought all these guys that are just absolute monsters. Um, and yeah, he's come up a little short against them, but he's fighting these guys that are killers, you know, like what's, what's going on with me the last couple years? I fought like basically like, once. in the last like four years, right? It's like, what's been going on in me? Most people don't know.

They saw me fight for a minute and a half, you know, two years ago. And they have no idea what's going to otherwise. You know, I think it's one of those fights. You don't have a whole lot of idea, like, who's going to show up on either end of the fight. You know, it's like what version of me is going to show up? What version of Cowboys are going to show up? You know, it's hard to predict stuff like that. It's a little bit easier when you're seeing people more consistently fight.

You know, you see them a little more recently. But now you're talking, you know, a lot of time that's happened. So it'll be interesting. It'll be fun. Yeah, did you see, Dana, they're talking about, you know, because I think a big part of this, and I know it was for you, getting to fight back in front of the fans, because, like, there's been aspects of, like, the apex fights I've enjoyed, and now I'm kind of over it because, like, I went to the UFC here in Columbus a month ago, and it was just so awesome to be back, like, with the fans, 19,000 people losing their minds, rising and falling with every punch and takedown and submission attempt, and it's just a whole other atmosphere. and I know fighting in front of fans was important. That's a big, you know, I'm sure that's a big bonus of being back here on your first fight on the pay-per-view, all this kind of things.

Did you hear Dana say they're going to go back to Boston? Did you hear that? I did not hear that. I've been hearing rumors of this for a little while, but I'm excited to hear they. Did he say that to come back to Boston? He said, they talked about locations and he said, we're going to do this, we're going to do that. And he's like, we're going to go back to Boston.

And because the Boston, I didn't go to the last Boston show. That was, was that the Chelsom? that was the Connor McGregor Chal Sondon fight, right? Was that the last fight in Boston? Am I remember that correctly? I think so. I forget now.

It's been, there's so many fights that's so hard to keep track of them all. Your fight in Boston, was that the Gabe Rudiger fight? Was that Boston? Am I remember that correctly? I did fight Gabe Rudiger in Boston, but my last fight was,

I guess, Jonathan Pierce. This was the raised in Wyman, and then Yair and Jeremy Stevens. That's right, that's right. Because I've been to a couple the Boston cards and I love for I freaking love Boston I freaking love those cards although I will say if you go back to Boston go during the summer I love Boston's bunch of everybody don't want to go don't want to go there in the winter but like is that like when you talk about fights like you know

and again it's all about timing like if they offered you a fight on three weeks to know it's fighting Boston I guessing you're probably going to say no thank you but is that again kind of like that's what we're talking about like the fun things I or do you even like fighting I don't know some guys hate fighting at home um I didn't mind fighting at home like it was always fun fighting at home You know, like I sold, I did tickets. So I sold 600 tickets both times I fought in the last, I think all three times I fought in Boston. I sold like 600 tickets. So it's great having people, everyone there in my T-shirts and screaming their faces off and everything.

So, I mean, that part's fun. It's definitely a little bit more stressful. You're doing a lot more like local media and a lot more like, I got my aunt freaking texting me. Like, hey, what time can I get in? Like the day of the fight? How about you just leave me alone? You know what I mean? Like, you know, stuff like that.

It's definitely it's a little bit more because there's just this way more of people you know that are attending that just don't typically go to something like that. For them, it's like they're going to like a local fight. And it's like, it's kind of a big weekend for me. It kind of just leave me, leave me alone, please. So it's like it would be nice. If they're talking about coming to Boston, like, you know, in the summertime, you know, that's something we would consider doing. You know, I assume this fight goes well. But like again, like you said, like the time has to make sense.

You know, like we have to like the location, the date and the opponent. You know what I mean? Like if they told me, hey, we're going to fight in. Boston in three weeks, but it was a point that we really liked if it was like a, you know, someone that I thought was like a layup, I'm a fool to not go and take that. You know, so it kind of, even if it was short notice, that might still be okay. Um, but it's just, you know, got to got to have all three for me. You know, if they want to, if they come back to Boston, I'm excited about that.

Um, you know, that'd be awesome. I'm looking forward to that. Yeah. You're in, you're in such a rare position, Joe, because the, the downside of our sport and, you know, not to put on negative spin on it, but the downside of our sports, there's a lot of guys who haven't really planned for the future. We know this. You know,

we've seen the horror stories and you feel bad for it when it happens. When guys come back and they feel like they need to fight, like they don't have any other options. They've not really invested their money or all these kind of things. We've seen it a thousand times over. And I mean this sincerely, I applaud you because you're a guy who did plan for the future. Like you built your gym.

You've got students. You got it. Like you said, you don't need to fight now. Like you're making a living on your gym and coaching and things like that. And like, I feel like it's something. I know gyms are not easy things to do.

I mean, we just went through a pandemic where everything shut down and all these kind of crazy things are happening. But like, I was feel like when it's all sudden, I remember when they used to do the UFC retreats, like they take you out to Vegas like four days teach you out to do social media and everything. Like I feel like we need to have like the Joe Lozahn business plan of like guys who are like coming up because some guys don't. Some guys don't plan for the future.

Like I know like, again, I do the podcast regular with Matt Brown, of course. And he's kind of getting to that age where he's, you know, he's older. He's 40, 41. and, you know, he's got businesses now. He's got his own coffee company. He's got his own gym here in Columbus, all those kind of things. He's planning for the future when fighting is not there because he wants to, you know, give a life to himself.

And he has kids and those kind of things. But it is sad. You see that. But, like, I feel like we need, like, the Joe Lozahn plan where, like, I want, like, and I use Cowboys an example because, again, he's your opponent. And we've all heard, you know, Cowboy in the past say, I need to win this fight because I need to pay taxes. Like, I never want fighters to be in that situation where, like, they need to win a bonus just

to pay off taxes. But like I feel like that's something like guys like yourself, Matt, like I wish there was like a veteran seminar where like you could talk to the young kids like, hey, plan for the future. Like this is not, you're not always going to be in $50,000 bonuses. You're not always going to be getting double paychecks. Like these are things you need to plan ahead for. Like I wish like guys like you like the UFC, that would be a great way to like use you is like, hey, bring you out and like talk to the new fighters because, uh, I don't know if you still like Brian Stan was talking there. Like he gave advice like young fighters. Like I feel like you'd be a great guy for that because you have planned for the.

future to the point now where you don't need to fight. You just want to fight. Yeah, you know, for sure. You know, and it's hard. I mean, there's definitely things that I think I could have done, you know, if I could go back and talk to like 22-year-old version myself, I would have a lot of advice for the 22-year-old version myself, you know, but it's just like, you know, you just, you whatever you have for information, you make the best choice you can at the

time and you go on from there, you know? And for me is like, I never saw fighting as like a full-time, long-term thing. Like, I had my first fight against Jen's Polver. I went back to work on Monday. And then a couple months later, I went on the ultimate fighter, and I went back to work like a week after that. And then I went back, you know, and I worked until the finale. And then I fought on the finale, and then I went back to work.

And then I worked for like another like a month or so. And then I had BJ Penn calling me to move out to Hawaii. So I'm like, all right, I'm put it in for leave of absence. I left my job, went to Hawaii. Everything went great. And because I had spent, you know, basically saved up enough money to, you know, give myself a cushion. I was able to do that.

I was able to kind of keep rolling it forward and keep kind of building that cushion as we went on and spending, you know, less than I was making his time went on. And I think some guys, like, they have a hard time thinking that all. It's like they think whatever they're making now, they think it's going to keep getting bigger and bigger and bigger. So they keep spending more and more money. They make a little more money. They spend a little more money.

They make a little more money. They spend a little money. And now it's like, okay, they get to the end of that career. And now it's like there's nothing to, you know, there's nothing saved up. There's nothing there. One thing that made a big difference for me was like I spent like most of my adult life. trying to become the best fighter I could possibly be, which is great. And then I was running my gym, but I was not running my gym effectively.

Like I wasted so many years at my gym because I didn't, I didn't understand how to run the business. It wasn't until like maybe four or five years ago, I got way more serious about trying to run the gym as a business and like think of it as a more of a long term thing. Until then, it was kind of like my personal training playground, right? Like I just, I ran the gym. The gym made money, but didn't make a lot of money. didn't really care about running like a well, you know, oiled machine as a business because it just gave me a place to train, gave me a good training partners, gave me a place to work out with my coaches, it was fine.

You know, but now I think back about like how many years I wasted, how much money was lost that we didn't make because we didn't take it seriously. And just like, I just, I didn't know. You know, so I, you know, like four years ago, maybe five years ago, maybe. You know, we got serious about Toronto like, okay, like as tenaciously as I try to get better, at jihih Tutsu and boxing and wrestling and everything else. I try to get better at business stuff. And I've just learned a lot and I've kind of figured out what works for our business.

And, you know, um, you know, and just like anything else, you find good coaches. You find someone like if you're trying to get good jih Tutsu, you find someone that knows jih Tzu and you have them teach you jutsu. Same thing in business. I was like, I was like this like dummy that was like I had good jitsu, but I had no idea how to run a business, but I don't know any better. And just, you know, you kind of, you figure things on your own a little bit, but you really got to go and find someone that kind of like kind of lead you on the path so if if it does

come a point where I say okay I'm definitely done fighting I'm not going to fight again um I wouldn't mind talking to UFC and you know maybe trying to work with some of the some of the other fighters and trying to help them you know kind of prep a game plan for a long term and kind of figure what they want to do um that would be something I would definitely be interested in if if that was something they wanted to do yeah but again I'm not I'm also in a position where like now I don't need that job because like how is that going to take me away from my gym how is I going to take me from my own businesses. So I don't know. We'll see what happens. Yeah. I feel here I am just talking about like, you know, financial responsibility.

I'm about to ask you the exact opposite question because, uh, you're kind, you're very much like me. You're a geek. You're a proud nerd. We know this. Uh, you know, I go to San Diego Comic Con every year. I'm going again in July. Like my one vacation every year is to go to San Diego Comic Con haven't been in three years. It's like breaking my heart. I haven't been because of the pandemic going back in July. Very excited about that. I'm curious, Joe. You're not, you've never been that guy to be like, oh yeah, I'm driving around my new Lamborghini around Boston,

like, well, I got this extra, has there ever been anything you've splurged on? Like, what's the biggest splurge you've ever had? Like,

not saying, like, right after a fight, like, I'm gonna take my bonus and go by this, but like, has there ever been one frivolous thing that you've spent on? You've never been that guy.

You're never on, like, social media, be like, look at my new, you know, the horse farm I just bought or whatever. Like, you've never been that guy.

And I'm saying that because, like, funny enough, like, I won a fight. I bought a boat. Yeah, I want to fight.

I bought a yacht, like whatever it is. For you, is there ever been a splurge item if you're like bought a Batman outfit? Like anything? So there's, so I got two things.

So one, and this is like just a stupid one. I bought, I spent $800 and I bought on, it was like Etsy or something like that. I bought a Ghostbusters backpack, which was like unbelievable. It was awesome.

It made all kinds of noises. It was great. I had lights. It was awesome. But then we did a big home renovation. It got crushed a little bit. got broken. So that was like a frivolous stupid thing that I bought. But that was like $800. Which in the course of like a 15 year year of secret, I guess that's not so bad. One thing.

Then the only thing I bought that like, and it wasn't like frivolous, but it was definitely like it was probably a little bit more than I would have liked to spend, but I felt like it was okay. So I fought Jamie Varner. I won the fight. We got a double bonus. We got fight of the night and I got submission of the night. And I was like, I had a max on Nissan maximum at the time. And like right after the fight, I've been like thinking about getting other car and uh right after the fight like the AC died that it was going to cost me like $1,800 to fix the AC and do something else on it. It was like didn't make any sense at all. So I was going to buy like a Jeep like an SUV and I was going to get like a probably not brand new but probably some of like 5,000 miles, 10,000 miles on something like that.

And I had a, my buddy knew someone to the dealership. I ended up buying an Audi SQ5. So it was like the car was like it wasn't crazy expensive, but it was it was 50 grand. It was used. It had like 10,000 miles on it. So that was like, and I still have it to this day. It was like a 2000, that was like 2000, it was, it was 2015, I think it was. I know the cars are 2015.

So I've had it for like seven years. So it's like, it's a little expensive of a car, but it wasn't crazy expensive. But that was like the only thing. Like it's, it's a nice car, but it's not a crazy expensive car. It's not like, it's a very like, it's on the higher end of like a typical daily driver car, but it's not like a Lamborghini or something. something crazy or anything like that. Yeah. Did you see the new Ghostbusters movie?

Yes, I loved it. Did you like it? Did you? Okay. I, I'm not, listen, I'm not above admitting when I get emotional during movies. I, I wept during the last, like, half hour of that movie, full on, like, cried. I get turned up a little bit. I'm not going to lie. I didn't cry, but I threw it up a little bit for sure. Movie was great. I thought it was like, I thought it was really, really good because, like, so my kids loved it. And, like, they've seen, like, the old Gold Buster movies a little bit, but but they love like the little like marshmallow man guys they just they thought that was awesome um

they didn't understand like the nostalgia of like hearing like all the sound effects and the music and that kind of stuff uh but i thought it was awesome i thought they knocked it out of the park yeah i seriously when i was in the theater they i'm not going to ruin for anyone that hasn't seen it but i was like i was like is it dustian here like i full on got emotional during that ending i was like it was like it was like the best so great nostalgia like i grew up on ghostbusters i'm like you like I would 100% spend $800 on a proton pack. Without a doubt I would

100% do that. When I saw the movie like I was just like it was just like so much joy and so much fun and it was like the perfect dose of nostalgia and like new stuff and yeah that ending wrecked me though man I was just like a full on like blubbering mess like it's so beautiful this is amazing

they crushed it yeah they absolutely crushed it like it was so good. I don't think they could have done much better with it. I thought there was a little bit of stuff that I don't want to spoil it either. There's a little bit stuff in the very beginning with Egon that I thought was like a little bit hard to follow. But it was so good. I got to go back and watch it again, actually. I feel like I feel like when it's all said and maybe like I said, everything goes well on May 7.

Maybe you go on getting another bonus. Maybe we talked Dana into like in a little boost in the bonus is getting like 75 grand. And I feel like you got it like. I saw listen, you got kids and everything now. You got a business. So again, here I am saying be financial responsible I'll go blow your money. But I feel like you, I feel like you deserve, like, I want to see,

like, Joe Loz on, like, you own, like, the full Batman outfit or something. Like, I know you're big into comics

and, like, and like comic movies, like, I feel like when it's all, like, you gotta have one other, like, before it's all said

done, some ridiculous splurge that you need to do, whether it's like, you know, you build a bat cave at your house, or I don't know why I keep going back to Batman. Because I think Bruce Wayne,

I always think he's, he's rich. Uh, or you buy like a full-on Superman outfit or something like you buy an Iron Man outfit. I saw somebody walk around Comic-Con with a full-on suited Iron Man suit. Like Joe Lowe's on his Iron Man. I feel like you need to do that. I'm just saying.

I've gotten old now. Like now it's like I'm talking about putting in like a like a chain. So my yard is like I have a nice yard, right? Like it's all flat. It's all fenced in. But it's like it was fenced in when I bought it like 10 years ago. But it's all like chain link. We're talking about putting up like a privacy fence like big tall, six foot,

a tall privacy fence all the way around my backyard. We're talking about when I was like, we're talking about doing like a patio and stuff like that. And now it's like it's a case of like pretty much all of the UFC money is kind of like just like not frivolous blow it kind of money, but it's kind of like it's not super necessary. Like I'm, I'm going to be smart with all of it.

But if I end up going and spending 10 or 15 grand it, you know, put down a patio or put down a fence or something like that, it's not as like irresponsible as before when it was like my sole source of money and income. So, you know, it's just like, Now it's like it's just all like the fun has been taken out of my life because I would have gone and bought like a Batmobile or bought something like that.

Now I'm like I'm buying a patio for my wife. It's funny. You remember the movie old school, the Will Ferrell movie? Like in that scene where he's like he's hanging out with the college kids. And they're like, so he's like, oh, we're a pretty busy day tomorrow. We're going to go to bedbath and beyond. And we're going to go to Costco. I don't know if we'll have enough time.

Like I feel like that's the I feel like that's where we're at now, Joe. Like we're at the point now where we used to have fun all the time. And now we're like, you know what? You know it be a fun Saturday. Let's go to Costco. That'd be a really fun Saturday. I'm even lazy in that, though, because I just pulled my phone and I'm pulling up like Amazon.

Like, oh, I'm just going to like look whatever I want. It's going to show up my house in like two days or a day or Walmart plus or wherever it's going to be. You know, so I can get back to playing video games and all the stuff I like to do. Yeah, there you go. Yeah, putting in a patio. That's when you know you've graduated from buying a full on Batman outfit or like a ghost post.

A ghostboy. How about that? Like, you can do that. We can do that. I would do that. We did, I did a Ghostbress costume for Halloween one year. Yeah. Yeah, there you go.

Joe, it's always a pleasure to catch up. I appreciate you doing this and how busy you are beyond a fight camp, but also running a business and you got a family too on top of that. So thank you, as always for doing this. I really appreciate it. Again, safe training the rest of the way, safe travels out to the fight in Phoenix. Can I always see you back in action. And thank you, as always for doing this.

You know, I appreciate it. Oh, no problem. Anytime. Peace cake. We'll talk to you soon, okay? All right. Sounds good. Talk soon.

All right. Bye. All right. Later, bye. Welcome back to the show, and I am very excited to talk to my next guest. He is coming off his first official win in the UFC, although technically should be two and one in the UFC, but that's a whole other conversation. Maybe we'll talk about later.

Lots to talk about with him. We go back quite a few years, and I'm just excited to have him back on right now, which was under better circumstances, of course, than what happened on Saturday night, but I'm glad he's here to talk with me about everything that unfolded at UFC Vegas 52. Welcome in Mike Jackson. Mike, how are you? man I'm doing well right now my balls aren't burning no more my eye it feels

much better right now and then I'm back home dude like I was I was away for like I got in a shower last night and damn I ain't shouted home in like six days but it felt good to be back you know and I'm happy right now I'm just direct deposit to clear

I need to find out the direct deposit clear jet there you go there you go let me in all honestly let me ask right now how is the eye because the replays on that and I called it what I said you can look at my you know what I wrote on on Saturday night I didn't call it an eye poke I called it an eye gouge because when you look at the video and I said it was like it looked like he was trying to scoop your eyeball out of your head now to be clear I don't think he did it like on I don't think he tried to go in and

gouge your eye like he was you know purposely trying to hurt you and or that he what I'm saying is like he didn't go in like try to rake your face like a pro wrestling move or anything but it was beyond a guy he tried to hit me with the pie made me with the piemate I My God, my God. What are you talking about? So how is the eye? How is the eye right now? The eye is better, man.

You know, in the moment, it was really damage. And then after the doc checked, and they said they may be like some like surface kind of issues. Again, he scratched the eye in hindsight. So it was really making sure I ain't got no like Irish germs and those shit got caught, you know, in my eye or anything like that. But it was scary. moment for me because while it's happening, like when the initial, his hand was over my eye,

I'm assuming maybe he tried the palm or whatever. And so that's to my point of why I'm going to get into why I feel that it was intentional and why Dean Barry is a dirty, cheated motherfucker. But initially as it happened, when his hand was on my eye, I saw as two fingers, right? I'm literally looking at two fingers in my eye. And I'm like, oh, shit, his hand is in my eye. did not feel the pain, but from my view, I just saw two fingers. Like, I didn't, and they looked straight.

They didn't look curled or anything like that. But again, I felt the pain. So I was like, that's why I felt that he poked me, right? But then I watched the replay later, I see the eye gout, which is really wild. And if I'm being honest, man, I really wish that I would have saw the replay of everything before I started doing post-fight interviews because I would have had a different sentiment. initially after the fight, you know, when they caught it off, he walks over and he's like, oh, my, I'm sorry.

I'm not a dirty fighter or whatever. He said something that I'm not a cheater. It wasn't intentional, et cetera, et cetera. And in the moment, I gave him the benefit of doubt, right? I was like, you know, it's cool. It's a fight. Shit happens. But then I go and watch the replay, and his hand went here, here, here.

Right? So it wasn't when I, the initial I thought it was a poke, you know, he kind of did that. But then he curved his fingers, turned, and gouted. Those actions tell me that it was intentional. And I have a theory on how he got here, right? But I'm going to let you go. But to the point, though, yeah, I watched the replay. I was like, nah, this motherfucker gouged my eye.

He's trying to hear me with the pie made. I gout. Well, tell me about that then, because, again, the replay is what we saw would literally look like he was knuckle deep in your. your eye. Like, that's what we saw on the replay. And I was like, oh, my God, that's horrible. Because for anyone who's never been poked in the eye, by no stretch of the utter imagination of my trying to compare myself to any EOC fighter, but I was doing jiu-jitsu one time and I got a pinky in my eye, just in the side of eye, just an accidental pinky in the eye. And it sucked

real, real bad. Like, I couldn't see straight for like a day and a half. And I ended up going to the eye doctor and I got a scratch on the corny and all that kind of stuff. But it sucks real bad. And that was just a real quick little jab. So I can only imagine it looked like he was knuckle deep on your eye. It was bad. So tell me. I mean, again, what you're saying there is that you believe 100% for a fact that he was doing it on purpose. 100%.

So here, let me run down the fight for you, right? So I'm going to sort of give you my idea of my game playing and stuff like that for this fight. So going back and I've made previous statements where I said that this fight would be easier than the punk fight, but more dangerous. right? And what I mean by that is for the punk fight, there were unknowns. I knew as a fighter he could only get so much better than what he was previously, given like kids experience, athleticism, etc. But given that his background was going to be jiu-jitsu, maybe he learned some like secret ninja shit that I wasn't be prepared for. So that's what I'm saying. In him, it was, it was, it would have been harder for me to prepare for that. For Dean,

He's going to be a better fighter, a higher skilled fighter, but I'm aware of his arsenal. And it's going to be easier for me to prepare for those. He's not going to, like, throw some shit out that I'm not going to be ready for. Coincidentally, in irony, right, the one weapon that I was training for that I felt that was his best shot at finishing me, what it really was a body shot, would be the spinning back kick. That was the shot that I was preparing for.

that was the shot that I was most concerned about out of all his weapons. The right hand, I was never worried about that because I'm cool with that. Even when he hit me, he hits like a bit. He was a baby. He's a legit 45 where he needs to get to 45. He's a little chunky monkey as you saw when he walked in the cage. That was his, he hit me with his best shot and it was, I mean, he hit me with his best punch and it was nothing, right?

So danger wise, it was always a spinning back kick. So for me, the objective, and also I know he has no endurance, is nowhere close, nowhere near where mine is. So I was like, all right, I'm going to give him jabs, hard feints, and low kicks. That was my main objective for the first round because I knew he was going to get tired, giving his style, like he likes to, he dances, he runs a lot. Let me say dance. He runs a lot, which he did.

And he, and he throws, he has these big actions with his punches, which again, He did. So I come out, give him the heart faints, right? He kind of bites. He's kind of like fidget you with those and biting on those. But he's also running. So I'm like, all right, I don't want to overreact to the, I don't want to like kind of like force the jazz or anything like that.

So I'm just going to let him, I'm going to buy a time out, right? So knowing I got 15 minutes, I'm going to let him do his thing. So he's doing the big actions, he's swinging. Now, all these punches, I'm looking at the punches go by my face. He's hitting nothing but air. He's swinging. I'm looking like, oh, shit. Man, at the same time, I'm like,

yo, he hit me one, you motherfucker. He's probably going to hurt. At the same time, I'm like, he fucking, man. He's just hitting air the whole time. And I'm looking at this. I can tell who he was about to hit me because he would make, like, this grimace. Like, he really, like, buddy was really trying to knock me out.

He was trying to his hardest. So you have a fighter who's used to, getting these first round finishes. He's used to these guys coming in and laying down for him, right? He's not getting that with me. He's throwing these big shots. He's hitting, he's hitting nothing but air, right? He's getting frustrated. I can see the frustration on his face. Finally, and if you look at the rebuk, he comes in again, he overcommits. I catch him, boom, with a solid left hook, right? I bruises his eye. His eye is really red. And when I hit him, he goes back and he's kind of blinking right he's like he and so when you look at it and I kind of

smile like yeah motherfucker I hit you yeah you got that shit so then fast forward I think maybe he got one shot off right maybe I like kind of ride whatever I eat it let's keep going he kicks me the dick once I kind of like damn like but this one wasn't like really affecting my performance it wasn't gonna like stop the fight I was like damn like the dude kick me all right whatever let's keep fight, right? Again, got the diamond cup on. We're good to go. So initially, and this is why I say, I wish I would have saw the replay before I did the interview. So in an interview, right, after he catches me with the kick, I thought I was kind of, he caught me standing still. He threw the kick, it landed on my dick, and that was, you know, all right, if it was, because I said, if it was higher,

it would have been a, it would have been a legal shot. Watched the replay. What happened, the techniques that I were preparing for to counter the spinning back kick, I get by it, boom, muscle memory did it. I stepped out the way. If he would have threw the shot legally, he would have just missed completely, right? But because of now, the kick itself, I'm not going to say that was intentional. I'm going to give him the benefit of doubt on that one. He just, he threw the kick.

It just, he missed his target, right? I guess he missed his target. Because of the trajectory of his foot, his heel caught my ball and boom, and they got me, right? So that's what happened. So I go down immediately and I'm like, oh, this. And then to the point people are like, oh, he was faking because he was talking. Like, I don't understand, like, there's different levels to ball shots, right? Like, there's going to be the ones that hurt where you're like, oh, shit, I can't do it.

And then there's the ones that I did what I did. like I was in pain, but I can still talk. And then that's just me. You know what I'm saying? But it's still in pain. Like, just because I'm in pain

doesn't mean I can't talk, right? Yeah, that argument, that argument didn't make a whole lot of sense to me. I remember, do you remember years ago the fight between, I think it was Josh Burnett and Mighty Moe?

Do you remember that fight when Josh Burnett kicked Mighty Moe? And Mighty Moe's down on the ground, literally moaning in pain. Like, he's just like, oh my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

Like, it was one of the most uncomfortable, like, ball shots in history because he was just like literally like, moaning his way through the pain. So I was like, why can't you talk? Like, it was kind of, I mean, listen, it was kind of funny, Mike. I'm not going on.

Like, when you said that, when you're like, you know, he's like, oh, it gave me right in the, I, I got to laugh. But doesn't mean you're not in pain. Doesn't mean you're not in pain. What does that even mean? Oh, he can't be in pain because he's talking.

What is that? Come on, dude. So people are saying that shit. So Chris, and now, given the apex, where I'm laying down, when I roll to my right, There's the big screen right here.

So I'm kind of like looking at me rolling on the ground. And look, I can find humoriness in hindsight. Even in a moment, like, I'm like, oh, my gosh. I can't believe his motherfucker kicking a dick. Like, it was, wow. And again, I'm in pain. So I'm trying to like find something to get my head off. Because again, when I get to tell the story.

So he comes over, he said, hey, you got how many time takes time. And I'm like, oh, fuck this, motherfucker. and then I say he tells me you get the fine like yeah I'm gonna need I tell him I was like yo I'm gonna eat the whole five minutes like because I knew this of like I'm feeling this I'm like there's no I'm gonna need the five minutes he said no no don't rush take your time you be fine so I'm laying there so I said hey can you let me know when it's five minutes he said I can he said don't worry about it I'll let you know he said but at five minutes you need to be ready to go and I was like oh shit okay I say well let me know what it's four of me

I was like, all right. So he's, no, no, no, don't worry. So I'm like, all right. So then I start thinking, okay, I'm wearing hearing pain. I can tell that dean, because now when the strike hip, it's about two, it's like a minute 57 in the fight. I was already like trying to let him do his thing for like the first half. We didn't even make it the half of the fight yet, half the first round yet, right?

So in my mind, I'm like, okay, I need to get up because he's recovering. right now. He was, his style, he's big and these big actions. I know he's getting tired. So that's why you see me hop up. I was like, no, no, no, I don't want him to get any more rest. So I hop up in like two minutes or something like that. But when I hop up, I'm, my dick is still, my balls are still hurting, basically, right? But again, I'm thinking I'm in a fight. I don't want him to get his rest right now. Fuck it. Let's just go. When I come back, I've all, my body's already been compromise from two. Let me put a point in

this. First thing in a rules meeting when Chris comes back, hey, I'm Chris Towny, I'm going to be a ref, blah, blah, blah. The two files we're looking for are eye pokes and nutshots. That was, those are his words in the rules meeting, right?

So you already had two warnings. That was your two warnings right there on the illegal shots. He kicks me the first time. They don't stop it. That's a shot, right? Right there, after, I should have got a hard warning. Then I get the spinning back kick, right?

And then, oh, you're crazy going to come over and he's like, hey, I gave him a stern warning. I'm like, bro, he had the warning in the back. He got the first shot. I thought, because I legit thought he was going to take a point at least. Then I get the joint with the spinning back motherfucker to the dick. I say, and your response is you got him a hard warning? Like, come on. Fine, whatever.

So then, again, I hide back up because I'm like, can't let buddy breathe, right? But again, I'm already compromised from the shot. So now my whole, I was like, all right, like, I don't want to get kicked again if I'm going this way. Because again, in the moment, I thought when he threw his back kick, he just caught me in the moment. Again, hindsight, I was moving out the way. It was going to leave a shot. So now my strategy in the fight is changing. Well, this motherfucker starts punching me.

Now, he's getting off his shots, but again, I've already been, it wasn't a legal shot that compromised me. It wasn't a lot he caught me with a body kick or a head kick, and I'm hurt. He caught me with a solid fucking dick shot. Now I'm hurt. I'm hurt off of that. So then he's getting his little punches off, and now I'm like, oh, shit, this motherfucker is hitting me now. Now, not hurt me. I've never hurt, never.

He did rock me once when I went in for, like, the double leg. But at no point in the fight, I was like, oh, my God. Chris is going to, I'm in danger of losing because Chris is going to stop it. I was like, oh, he hit me? I, I fuck, block that. And a lot of those punches I was also slipping and rolling, right? He's throwing them. He's going to landing, but they're grazing shots.

Because, again, I'm an expert in his head movement shit, right? So he's getting these shots off and I'm kind of like, shit, this motherfucker really hit me. All right, we got to figure something out. But again, my nuts are burning while all of this is going on right now. Fast forward. He comes in to Clint. I see his finger. Like when he puts his face on my hand,

I'm literally looking at his fingers through my eye. I'm like, why has his hand fingers on my face? And then I'm like, oh shit, this hurts. But again, in the moment from my vision, it felt as if he were poking me. So I go, I go off, go down. I'm blinking, trying to get this thing. They call the dock in with the little towel,

with the towel smell. like fucking mildew. It smells like ass. And so I'm patting my eye with this fucking mildew smelling towel that's wet. I don't know if someone like this mildew, I don't know what it is. Come to find out, I guess it's something to prevent some other shit that I don't fucking know.

So they're asking me, like, what do you think? And I'm like, bro, I'm also, my balls are still burning from the fucking spinning back cake. So now I'm dealing with hurt balls. and I can't I got one eye right so I'm I was debating when I was laying on the ground from the nutshell I'm bitch should I just give up now or go I was like nah fuck that we're gonna get this one back after the eye gouge I'm like I can't get this one I can't see like it's made I'm now fully compromised from a ball's burning my eyes is is um you gouge my eye I'm blinking can't see there's no way I'm going to continue this fight

against now the dude I'm gonna give him his pop on the tech now he's a shitty boxer he has shitty hands in a in another fight I'm I'm definitely not gonna kid it out as long as he doesn't kick me in the dick again um he's over here and target like let me see let me see the uh I say you know he's fast I'm like oh this motherfucker is real fast I don't want to I don't want to keep fighting compromise eyes so I say hey I don't want to fight with this eye who would want to fight with a who just had their eye guys also my nuts are still burning right so they pick up on the hot mic oh he he say he didn't want to fight with yi so now i got the troll was like you quit because you didn't want to fight with yi was like what do you know no i didn't want to fight with yi like that doesn't make any sense again these are coming from people who don't the fuck they're talking about anyway so they weigh the fight off and again in this moment i'm thinking it's just a poke So he comes over.

He's like, oh, Mike, I'm sorry. It wasn't intentional. I didn't mean to. I'm not dirty, blah, blah, blah. And I'm just like, and I'm giving him a bit, uh-uh, it's a fight. Shit happens. Don't even worry about it. I'm being, I'm like, ah, you want to be champion, right?

You want to be the champ, right? He's like, I don't even think. I'm sorry. I was like, dog, just do your thing, keep training hard, whatever, right? They announce the winner. I go in the back. I'm doing the interviews. I get back to the hotel, right?

Soon as I get back security, he's like, yo, you see the replay? They show me the replay. That's when I see the actual. And I was like, oh, shit. It was intentional. Now, intentional is very subjective here. I don't think he, like, lo, let me gouge his dude.

Eye out. But if you poke somebody, oh, if I poke somebody, right, even if I think I poke somebody, oh, shit, my bad. I didn't mean to do that. You went from here, here, here. And here, how can I not say that's intentional? You know these shots, you know these things are illegal. These are illegal tactics.

This isn't Croma McGa. We're not in Kill Bill. You're not Pye Mae with the, you know what I'm saying? So I, the tactics, man. Again, this is after two met shots. Dean Barry is a dirty fucking cheater over fighter, period. His fans that have support him. y'all supporting a cheating fighter

you know what I'm saying with these dirty tactics if y'all cool with that that's on y'all I'm gonna call out the white fragility though and then on top of that so then again to the point of white fragility right this would have been a great point for Dana just man

because he went back to the hotel he was like ah I can't believe I did that I made a mistake but this is coming from the people at the hotel who's watching him come through right I can't believe I did that So he's acknowledging the mistake to himself. Here's what a white fragility comes in. He gets on line and he says, I quit.

Oh, he quit. He could have continued. So now you're making excuses for your action. It wasn't my, I didn't kick myself in the dick twice. I didn't gouge my eyes out with the pie-made eye-snatching technique. It was Dean who did these things. But he's going to say to the people, I know who quit. You know what I'm saying?

that in itself is white fragility. That in itself, right? So then he has to go through, he has to leave his Twitter because he's a piece of shit now. He's a dirty, cheating and fighter. So now look at you, Dean. You're a broke boy,

because again, let me tell you the back story. We're the ones who make this fight, right? His management gets my name, and he says, he messaged me in like August, September of 2020. Hey, Mike, no disrespect. My management got your name. Are you even fighting still?

You know, we want to make this happen. We think it to be a good fight. et cetera, et cetera. At the time, I was like, I'm just getting back in the training. I'm down. Give me a couple months. We can do it, right? So the fight kind of not coming to fruition at his rate of speed, I guess. And so he starts telling me his backstory. He's broke. He's over there. He's a broke boy in Ireland. He needs the money bad, right? He has a girlfriend. He's got like a new kid on the way. So now he's a father. I was the other thing. I saw him at the PI and I was giving them problems.

I was like, yo, I said, you would congress on being a dad. Like, you can, you're in a position now where you can provide for your family and all these things. And then after the fight, he wants to be a fucking white fragility piece of shit and blame it on me. I was doing it. I did him a favor. He got a sign for me, right? So I was doing my favor and now he wants to act like this. But again, he's now he's going back because he's broke, right? He probably got $12,000. He got to pay his manager. he got to pay his gym and all these other things, his fees. He already told me, it costs him 15 grand to get a visa.

He didn't make 15 grand from the fight. So he's already in the hole. And then you didn't get your win bonus because you're a dirty, cheating fighter. You're talking to people, you're going to knock me out, you'll get the $50,000 bonus. You didn't get in those things because you're a dirty, cheating fighter. And he couldn't own up to your mistake. If he would have owned his mistakes, he would have been better off.

But he can't even own his mistakes. And that's the white fragility inside of him. He just had to let it out. I tell people, why for Julia, you got to be bloated and feel like he got gas and he got, you got a fart and then that's a fragility letter. And like you farted to sand like some crazy wild shit and then you feel better. Yeah. But then, you know, the gas comes back.

And that's all this is, right? So to the point, you're going to take all of these L's Dean Barry. You're going to take the L of being in a hole with your visa. You're going to take the L on your record for being a dirty, cheating fighter. You're going to take the L for not getting your wife. win bonus. You're going to take the L for not being up and provide for your family because you've got a newborn baby. You're going to take the L because you're going to go back to Ireland and I don't even know what you're doing. You're a grocery boy or some shit. I don't know. You're 28 years old.

You need to set better goals for your life. You're an adult. You know what I'm saying? Go provide for your family. You got all these things now. And what's the likelihood that they're going to bring her back in the UFC? So now you got to go back to Ireland and fight on these regional promotions, which we just had a conversation last week. Ireland him a man isn't doing too well right now your best bet is to get on a bellator car in island they ain't even fucking with y'all right now so all of these things are because of dean barry's actions not mine so yeah now we're here and now he looks like a fucking loser with no money so is that here having a good time is that is that the hardest part or the part

that I guess makes you angry as not that it happened, which again is terrible to happen in the first place and you know I know you as a fighter, I know every fire. No one's looking for a disqualification. No one's trying to go out there and get a disqualification. We all know that and if you don't know that

then you're not really a fan of fighters because we all know that. We know that's not the way you want to win. But that being said, him coming out afterwards and saying you were looking for the easy way out and making the whole Twitter post. Is that really what is kind of like what is really what? Because again, you can look at the replay and you talk about like you believe, you know, in your heart of hearts he was doing it intentionally and he's cheating.

But if he apologizes, I'm sorry, didn't mean to do it, you know, we'll run it back, whatever. And that's the end of it. Is that the end of it? That would have been the end of it. That would have been the end of it, right? Like, it was the end of it after the fight. Like I was, I was already done.

Now we're going to, obviously, we're going to joke about it. They're going to be the memes. I got, again, it was funny. In hindsight, it was fucking hilarious. Like, I'm laughing. People tell you, and they're like, oh, man, like, no, dude. I'm like, no, this shit is funny because, again, I have a difference in some humor. And I can laugh for myself.

I got kicking a damn. Now, dude, it hurt it. I still feel remnants of the kick today. I woke with him morning like, damn, I had to check my balls. Like, fuck. All right, that's weird feeling. Oh, yeah, he could have just left it at that. He's, ah, in the ring, he's, ah, man, I'm sorry.

My bad. That wasn't my intentions, right? He could have left it at that. you didn't have to go in a line and say Mike quit. And that's what I'm saying. Like there is a point you're trying to win at this point. You're trying to look good. You're trying to impress people.

Whatever his strategy is here. But it's not a smart strategy. That's why you have to delete his Twitter for being a dumbass. You know what I'm saying? And that all falls on him. He literally did all of this stuff to himself. And he tries to blame me for quitting. Like, who the fuck does that?

You know who does that? Snowroach does that. White fragility does that. That's who does. Because someone's saying, and I feel like, oh, Mike calls white people's not.

I've never called a white person of snowroach. I've never called a white person to racists. I've only called racist, racist or racist snow roaches, right? Who have, and when I say,

Ray, I'm talking about your mindset, your ideology, you think that you're better than. This man came out here. He thought he was better than me in all aspects. And he wasn't. He wasn't a better fighter than me.

He's a, fucking dirty, cheating fighter, and he wasn't a better man than me because he couldn't even own up to his own mistakes. All he had to do was just, shit, my bad. And that would have been the end of it, and I would have all the respect for Dean Barry. At this point, I have zero respect for Dean Barry, who was a piece of shit, dirty cheating fighter, period. That being said, Mike, when you got the offer, when we talked, we did an interview when the fight was booked a while ago before everything happened and then the pandemic and everything else was going on. You have other things going on in your life.

You don't necessarily need to be a fighter right now. You are a fighter, but it's not like you're out there banging on the UFC's door saying, I need a fight, I need a fight, that kind of stuff. So we're saying this, and we don't know what's going to go on next in terms of is he going to come back? Are they going to keep him on the roster? We have no idea how that's going to play out. They're going to get that motherfucker, right?

Cut his ass, sitting back to Ireland. But do you, like, in terms of you, like, is this? this what we're basically, like, what I'm getting at is, is this the end of it with Dean Barry. I guess what I'm getting at. Like, you're giving, you're talking to me right now. Are you just putting him out of sight out of mind after this? I, look, I mean, if they come, look, I'm, yeah, I am putting him out of sight out of mind. I'm going to shit. I'm going to keep shitting on them, though. I'm going to let you know right now. I'm going to keep shooting them on until I get bored because that, that's just the, the Mike

Jackson, the Mike the Truth way, I guess. So I'm going to keep doing that. But once I'm done with that, I'm going to put them out of mind. Now, in the, And the unlikeliness that they say, let's run it back. I just can't see him doing that. But in the unlikeliness that they say run it back, 100% I'm running it back. 100%. I still stand by my actions in my words going into the fight. He's not a better fighter than me.

In that fight, he was doing his thing. He was hitting air. I was literally doing the fucking Neo Matrix thing. He's throwing punches. I'm like, oh, shit, that's a cool one. I was like, damn, that's a hard punch. That hit me. That would suck.

I'm literally looking at his punches. And you know what I'm saying? And so, again, the shots that were landing, I was already compromised from the two dick kicks. You know what I'm saying? So if they want to run it back, sure, I don't feel that they are. For me, at this point, it just, the fight has to make sense. It has to be a fight that, you know, again, that's the name of the game anyway.

We have to worry about the athletic commission, et cetera. I personally would like another, I won another fight just because, again, I didn't get to show my skill set that I wanted to show. But if I don't, that's cool too. I'm cool with that. If the right opportunity never presents itself furthermore, cool. I've now fought in three different decades. I'm two in one as a pro-M-MA fighter, two-in-one or two-in-one in a pro-memory fighter, two-in-one in the UFC. you know what I'm saying

my other combat sports record was that four or five five and one outside of of MMA you know what I'm saying so now what I'm seven and two combat sports pro you know what I'm saying I'm cool with that

I got some other I came back home I flew straight back and went to the Fury card because I had to you know I'm providing the dope coverage for them you know what I'm saying providing the art for them as well

you know I'm doing this thing for the community you know so I'm cool It's people like Dean Barry. He's broke. He don't have nothing. He's struggling. So he needs these opportunities.

And he squandered it. How you squandered this? Great out. You talk all this shit. I'm a five-time kickboxing world champion in Ireland. Well, he's a point karate champion. And you get this amazing opportunity. And you put in a bounty on my head and all this shit.

And you squander it. And again, after the fight, you probably, let's just say that they, let's just say best case scenario, you do get another shot. They tell them to go down to 55 because you look like a little chunky monkey. Go to 55, we'll get you another fight. You've now squandered that by your further actions of being a piece of shit with your wife,

fragility on social media. Talking about the guy that I kicked in the dick twice and I hit him with the piemate eye gouge. He quit. Maybe I wouldn't have quit. I wouldn't have bribed out the contest in a prize fight if I wasn't hit with three illegal shots and like half around.

I don't remember when an eye gouge came, but I know the second dick kick came at under two minutes. You know what I'm saying? So the dude only has himself to blame here. This is a weird one to ask you, Mike. I'm only asking this because it is such an odd situation because this came up on Saturday night. You're a guy, you have fun.

You go out there and have fun. And you go out there, and you're, a media guy also, so you've done this analysis stuff. You've kind of looked at fights and you know, you know how it goes. When it's all said, have you thought about like the bizarre nature of your UFC run? Like when you think about it? Like, it turns like how like insanely strange,

like the Mickey Gall fight happens and then the CM Punk fight happens and then this just like, it's just the like, you couldn't write this, Mike. You couldn't write this story. Hey, Ryan Span, texted me yesterday, right? He was like, bro, can you do anything normal? You've obviously had kind of a wild, crazy, unexpected run.

There will be a book written one day. I get a feeling, Mike. When it's all sudden done, you've got to write a book about this or something. 100%. It only makes sense that it's going to go into the whole, Mike the Truth Entertainment portfolio. We got the Shits & Giggles brand that we launched. And as y'all saw, the new Instagram handle is Shitt's Ingles brand.

Because, again, that's what we're doing this for. It's for the shits and giggles, and we're having a good time doing. We'll keep the ball rolling with life and on this crazy journey that we're on. And who knows what's next? It's going to be some cool shit, though. I promise you. Yeah, well, Mike, I appreciate you doing this, of course. In all sincerity, I'm glad the eye is okay because that's really scary.

I mean, obviously, a growing shot could be devastating as well, so I don't want to look past that. But I'm saying, like, you know, I mean, because we're looking at Michael Bisping. I mean, the guy literally lost his eye. getting, you know, dealing with eye injury. So it can happen. It's a horrible thing. So I'm glad your eyes, okay. Whether you fight again or not, man, like I said, you know, do your thing.

You're always got a million things going on outside of just actually fighting. But I'm sorry this happened. And, you know, thank you for doing this with me. Because like I said, when I saw the Twitter post, I was just like, really, that's the reaction? Like, that seems a little, because I don't think anyone's going into it thinking, oh, man, I really, really want to get a groin shot. And then I want to have my eyes scooped out of my head. And I just, you know, call me crazy.

I'd rather get knocked out to get my eyes scooped out of my head. That's all I'm saying. I'd rather get knocked out to get, you know. Come on, Mike. But I appreciate it, Mike, always. Anytime you want to hop back on here, man, you know this. Let me know, open an invitation. You always got an invite on this show.

I appreciate it. And, man, heal up. And whatever comes next, you know, we'll all be watching. No, Mike. I appreciate you, as always. For being my dude. Absolutely. We'll talk soon, okay?

Yes, sir. Later. Want to say a big thank you once again to both of our guests this week. Mike Jackson, of course, coming off his fight with Dean Barry over the weekend. And, of course, a big thank you, as always, to Joe Lozahn for stopping by the show to preview his fight coming up with Donald Cowboys, Soroni. And a great trip down memory lane of some of the old school UFC guys who have been around and some of those memories, talk about Joe Sylvan, everything, always a lot of fun there. Make sure to check us on all of your favorite podcast platforms each and every week here for The Fighter versus the writer. We're over on Apple Podcasts.

We're on Spotify. We're on Stitcher. And of course, you can always find us over at mMA fighting.com. A big thank you once again to everyone that tunes in each and every week to the podcast. We will see you next week for another edition of the Fighter versus the Writer. Thanks for shooting in. We'll see you then. We're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network.