MMA Fighting - Fighter vs Writer: Kamaru Usman Title Shot and Did Francis Ngannou Make a Mistake Leaving the UFC?

Episode Date: June 17, 2025

On the latest episode of The Fighter vs. The Writer, Matt Brown and Damon Martin discuss Kamaru Usman making a triumphant return to the octagon and if his request for a welterweight title shot should be granted. Plus we discuss if Rodolfo Bellato actually faked a knockout to stop his fight with Paul Craig and we debate if Francis Ngannou made a mistake leaving the UFC? All that plus much more! Subscribe to MMA Fighting Check out our full video catalog Like MMA Fighting on Facebook Follow onTwitter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network Welcome back to the Fighter versus the writer I am Damon Martin he is UFC legend and master guitar player Matt Brown coming off a show this past weekend I posted, tried to post a couple highlights you posted highlights on your Instagram

I reposted on my account coming off a shredding weekend for you Matt Brown Yeah man that's a lot of fun bro It's a lot of similarities to competing in a fight just way lower consequences when you fuck up. Nerves, though? I mean, dude, I like, when you're, like, you're confident as a fighter.

You were, I call you UFC legend for a reason. You are a UFC legend. But going out there playing guitar in front of people, that's a different kind of anxiety. So were there nerves? Yeah, I mean, there was a little bit of nerves. It kind of went in and out, you know, but very similar to a fight in that regard

where, like, you get nervous and stuff. Obviously, like, the nerves are way more for a fight. but um you know once it gets going like it just be like oh this is what i do like what was i nervous about you know like i know exactly what to do here so um and then i'd say like the only other couple times i got nervous where like there was a couple parts in songs where like i'm not really hitting it every time you know uh especially like early on you know because uh there's some parts that it's just really hard you know and like sometimes you get it it sometimes you might miss a little bit so you get a little bit nervous on the lead-up and then

once you get through it you're like you know even if you messed it up a little bit you're like oh dude i got this you know so like we did two sets and the second set i was like i was locked in i was like it's cool man like i can do whatever like fucking these people don't even notice anyway you know so so i loosened up a lot by the second set i i love the uh when you play the audio slave song because I heard that because that one solo that they play is I'm not saying it's hard to play but it's such a unique solo and I was like you nailed it like that's like when you listen a lot of rock music like metal music like you recognize certain sounds and like that's one I was immediately like oh yeah I know that's audio slave and you got to remember that's Tom Morello

who's one of the most talented guitarists in the world a guy went to Harvard and he's like a freaking amazing guitar player so when you can emulate Tom Morello you're doing something right well with that yeah that's exactly right with a with a guy like tomorella it's not that it's hard like technically like it's not you know like you're doing some like inge style shredding or dime bag shredding or something like it's not hard that way but um you know i did a lot of work on like trying to emulate the tones and and when you're doing using like as many effects as tomorello uses and you know getting a specific sound out of those effects like that's what's hard about it and of course when you have so many effects like you do have to hit it like pretty spot on like you can't really be off a lot and especially in like a

solo like that where it's um you know it's very loud right it's like the you know the whammy is going you know so you're like two octaves high like nobody hears the drums and shit at that point like it's just you it's and that's such an iconic solo too like I mean you you nailed it but I'm saying like if you mess it up you're gonna know you mess it up because it's such a unique sound that's why like when you send it to me I was like damn like that's impressive because that's not like because that you're all you're standing on an island on that solar right there exactly yeah a lot of solos you are but particularly one like that and um yeah that was one of them you know i like the pressure on me you know and especially like after the pressure's on you then you get through it's actually like the first song we did kind of that was

actually what kind of loosening me up right the first song we did was uh them bones by alison chains I was like, dude, that's a perfect intro, you know, for a, just a set, right? Just a, you know, how it just comes out and he just screams, ah, or whatever. I was like, dude, that's going to wake everybody right to fuck up, right? But my in-hears were messed up, and I don't even know if the actual mixer was messed up because I could not hear my solo literally at all. I couldn't hear myself playing literally at all. So I have no idea what I even played during that.

and I'm totally confident that I was way off because I couldn't hear myself or barely the other guys I heard like the drums a little bit but that like glues me up I was like because everybody was cheering and everybody loved it and I was like dude like I don't even know what the fuck I just played like I can't you can't really fuck this up

you know what I mean like I don't even know what I just played and they're fucking loving it. Hey it was a good good stuff the highlights were great are we going to see more Matt Brown shredding on guitar in the future Well, potentially, yeah, we're going to talk about it, man. I got a lot going on.

It's a time commitment, you know, like it's a, I got to admit it was more difficult than I thought it would be because the majority of the songs that we did were pretty easy songs. Like, I think we only had two or three that I had to put like real work into, like Holy Wars by Megadeth was a seriously intense work. Nothing else matters is a pretty, actually pretty hard song to do the way that they do with the finger picking and everything. and you know and you're kind of on island in that song too anyway there's a few that were challenging

but again even like the most simple ones like you know it just requires way more work than I expect it because when you're playing in your bedroom like you know you let a lot of mistakes go that when you start playing with a band or start rehearsing for something live you're like dude like usually I don't even think about that little part that I fuck up I'm just because I just keep going I'm in my bedroom, but now it fucking matters. Yeah.

It's always, like, it's weird because when you have a hobby, which I, you know, to a certain extent I imagine guitar playing. Like, I know a lot, like, even during your career, you post a little clips where you're practicing guitar and have a fun play guitar. But then when you turn it into like a career, then it requires a whole lot of different things. And I'm not saying you're going to become a professional musician, but you're going to play shows. You've got to practice. You got to learn. You got to do that. And that's a time commitment.

Like I said, just like anything else. Yeah, exactly. right and i knew you know if we do it like seriously for a long time like you got to do some real practice but um for a small show and like a local bar like that i was like that it was like that'd be nothing bro and and but you know the the nice thing was i was surrounded by a very solid good well-rounded group of musicians who have done a lot of gigs and you know it leveled me up tremendously right but it also when i talk about that time commitment you know like i'm trying to keep up with them too you know I mean because like they've done this a billion times like all of them are like lifelong musicians

the drummer I was talking with him and he's been gigging since he was like 13 you know and and you know he's like this is another night for him um the other guitar player I mean he's been on tour before with bands you might have recognized if I tell you um you know so all these guys have been doing this forever and and you know I feel like the outcast here you know I'm like dude this is my first time. I don't even know what the fuck I'm doing. I didn't know what like I didn't even know what any of your monitors were. You know, like I didn't know that that's the way that you listen to yourself when you play. So that's why I messed them up the first time. I didn't know they had a little volume on them. So, so anyway, yeah, leveled me up tremendously, man. I'm a 10 times better player

from this. I hope, I hope, like, you know, because you got a lot going on. You got two gyms now. You got kids. You got podcasts. You got all kinds of stuff going on. But I do hope I know, like I know your buddies with one of the guys in Trivium. I know we've been buddies. with a guy in five-finger death punch. I just want to see a Matt Brown guitar performance on stage with one of those. Even just like one song. Yeah. Just one song.

You know what I mean? Like that would be pretty badass. Like I'm not saying that's the dream, but for me, I think that would be pretty cool. No, that would be absolutely amazing. And it's one of those things where I always kind of like want to ask them, but I'm like, I don't want to be that guy asking them either. I want them to ask me, right? Then it's the only proper way to do it.

But, I mean, that would be a dream, man, especially like with Trivium, right? because, you know, Heafie's just such a, my favorite bands in history. So that would be fucking awesome. But we'll see. You know, they're perfectionists, you know, and they're like, you know, they put on a great show, you know, like they're spot on. They're tight all the time. So I don't know if they would want me to like rehearse with them before. You know, I don't know how we would even do that.

But if it ever happens, that'd be a dream come true. I remember. I don't know if you remember this couple of years ago. I think it was at the Grammys. I know what show it was, but they did Lady Gaga's thing with Metallica. Do you remember that? Yeah, so done. But it was fun, but I saw them, like, rehearsing beforehand.

Like, in it, just like anything, you got to do it, you know what I mean? Like, you got to know, can you work together? Can you actually hit the marks? And so, yeah, I'm sure if you were going to play with those guys, they'd be like, hey, you got to come in and do rehearsals and practice. But still, like, I know you're not angling. Like, I don't know necessarily you're angling to become, like, a professional musician, but that would be a cool, like, bucket list, I know.

rightly knocked that up the bucket list yeah absolutely that would definitely be a bucket list that'd be sweeter from hell um yeah and i'm not necessarily angling for it you know the the problem is like even on saturday man like not nearly as many people showed up as i expected um and that's just the music scene right like nobody never does as many people show up as you expect until you're like metallica or something right like people do not care about your music as much as you think they do or like one does and the fact that you play you know there's there's a certain group of people out there that are hardcore love going to live music and stuff most people could give a fuck less right like they'll go to the band that happens to show up on Saturday or whatever but that's such a

difficult businessman and you know fighting is the same but you know at 44 years old with three kids it's kind of hard to pursue an entirely new career in the arts so we'll see how it'll plays out. I remember the first time I saw bad omens here in Columbus, I got tickets. It was Karen named me the venue. It's downtown. It used to be a church and now it's like a venue. But I bought tickets and it was like 25 bucks, super cheap, 25 bucks. And by the time the show happened, it is sold out because they had gotten a lot bigger. And then the second time I saw them, I bought tickets and they were at Kimba Live, which is a local Columbus venue. It's like, you know, basically for people who don't know,

it's like a middle ground between like a club show and like an arena. Like it's like the middle ground. Like it's like 5,000 people, six, like, you know, something like that. And that show sold out in like 10 minutes. Like it was sold out immediately. And that's all within like six months. Like that band blew up within six months, they got huge. So you just never know.

Yeah, and they'd probably been playing for how long before that, you know, 10 years probably, you know, trying to get to that point. Their third album, it's their third album before they really blew up. So yeah, you just never know. But, you know, just as a group or even just as musicians, I mean, they've been playing their whole life probably as musicians. And then, you know, how many bands they were in before that or, you know, the other iterations of that specific band. You know, it takes so fucking long and it's so hard. And then you do get the, you know, kind of the aberrations like a heafee from Trivium, right?

Well, he was like 17 years old touring the world, you know. But those are very, very few and far between, right? you know i mean we know we've all seen bands that have done it for you know 10 15 years and you know like bobo flex right like they've been around like how good are they right like they're good enough to be on any stage with any band in the world and like they're still you know playing kimball lives right

yeah you know it's just such a grind man and um you know there's so many different paths to take with it it'd be fun but um yeah we'll see how it all plays out man i really enjoy playing i love it and i would love to play live again we i got offers for more gigs like just from that like people are like dude come and play a gig with us so you know it's very potential you know to might even just go play those you know thousand dollar gigs you know once every few fucking months or something but but was it would just see man like i love

playing and it was so much fun i remember uh i went down a mutual friend of ours i was down in Columbus hanging out with Jamie Jasta from Heybreed. They were playing at the Newport, which is even smaller than Kimball Live. It's like, again, kind of like the smaller size of that. And I went down there and while I was out, I was backstage, there's really no backstage in Newport. It's basically like a little side of the arena.

Then you go down to some stairs and out the door basically. Yeah, there's no, there is no backstage. But I was out there with our buddy Jeremy Loper and Howard Jones was out there, who is my favorite metal vocal. He used to sing with Kill Switch Engage, and now he's with light the torch, and he has a couple other bands. My personal favorite metal vocalist of all time.

And I went out, introduced myself. He's actually from Columbus, which I didn't know that until... Oh, wow. Yeah, he was actually originally from here. But he was just standing outside. Now they introduced myself, and I just told what a fan I was.

Real super nice guy. But his band was the opening, opening band for Jamie Jocelyn. Now, in my head, I'm like, it's Howard Jones, man. He was the singer of Kill Switch. But that's just the nature of the business. Like, he was like the opening, opening band for hate breed. Now hate breed's a big deal. I'm not knocking them. I'm saying like but to me Howard Jones is like my favorite vocalist. I was like the opening opening band,

but that's just the nature of the business man. Just never know. I'm going. Especially in metal. I guess like the hardest, right? I remember going to an archer in town like, you know, I don't know, 10 years ago or whatever. I mean, there wasn't a hundred people there. Like there's literally more people at my show last weekend than at the Arch Enemy show. I was like, it's like literally one of the greatest metal bands in history. Like one, you know, they're like in the top 50 for sure. And like there's like a hundred people there, you know? Like

it's a hard business, man. And you almost like have to sell out you know, to actually do anything, right? Like we've seen a million bands do it. Like all the hard bands, they all come out with soft albums at some point. You know, if they have

any chance of going mainstream, right? Trivium's done it. Megadeth did it. Metallica did it. It's just the part for the course. And you know, you can't hate him for doing it. But, you know, it's just a tough business, man. Yeah, 100%. Well, concerts aside, we did have some fights this past weekend.

In Atlanta, ended up being a pretty crazy car. Kamar Usman got back on track. Which was cool. I didn't mention, which was kind of cool, watching because they were showing the UFC while we were playing. So every now and then, like even in the middle of the song, I'd peek up and see what was going on. That's funny. That's funny. Yeah, Kamar Usman got back on track. First win in four years got the win over Walking Buckley. Pretty dominant performance, four rounds to one. It was pretty much a shout-out until the fifth round. Except for one, Judge.

Yeah, which don't even get a start on that one. But Kamar gets back on track, and I know right afterwards he's calling for a title shot. I don't think anyone's going to deny. Like, Kamaru is one of the biggest names of the division. That's absolutely true. And that does matter. But I think everyone was like, you got to fight Balala Muhammad. That's the fight. Like him and Bilal had bad blood. Bilal called for and he dismissed it. Matt, you've been around the sport for a long time. I never say never because that's how circumstances work. Like I said, I mean, of course, we all hope and wish Islam McAche have the absolute best health, but that's the nature of he gets hurt. They're like, Kamar, are you ready?

And he gets in. So taking that out of the equation, like Justin, we know it's going to be Jack, Della Madalayan, and it's going to be Islam sometime later this year. Shavkat's still out there. Sean Brady's still out there. Is there a world where Kamar Usman gets a title shot? or is it Kumar Usman, Bala Muhammad? I think, I mean, come on,

that's the easiest matchmaking that Sean Shelby has ever had. Yeah, yeah, I agree. I mean, it should be Bala and Oussbaum. Like I said, that's the easiest matchmaking ever. And it lines, I mean, it makes everything, synergistically, it's perfect too, right? You know, if he beats Balaal also, it's like, okay,

now you've definitely earned your title shot back. And, you know, I tell you what, the one of the first things I thought as um you know no I didn't get to watch the fight but um hearing about Usman dominating Buckley like he did was like dude how fucking good is Leon Edwards man beat him twice you know and and because look at how who's how good Usman is right like he's you know he lost to Leon twice but the his only other loss I mean everybody talks about how long it's been since he won everything but you know his other loss was moving up to fight Hamzat at 85 on short notice, right?

And nearly winning, by the way, and very nearly winning. Yeah, I mean, it's amazing what he's done. So look, I would never, you know, well, coming off a win, like, Oussman, if they gave him a title shot, like, I would not be upset by any means. I don't see how you could be. I mean, he's a legendary champion. And, you know, again, Leon is just that good. I guess, you know, or maybe just matchup-wise.

I think it's got to be more of a stylistic thing. Like, I mean, obviously, like, Usman was dominating the first time and then Leon caught him with that head kick at the end. But the second time, I mean, we seen like Leon is freaking good, man. So, I don't know, I just had, that was the first thing that popped in my head. And I just thought, man, we got to give some props to Leon here for this. Because I think most of us, the odds had Buckley ahead. Most of us were picking Buckley, kind of thinking that Ustman was kind of on

his way out maybe and Buckley's on his way up but um, Usma proved us all wrong again, man. And, you know, I think he's got all the ability to go get a title shot, but, but he should absolutely fight Belal. I think it makes the most sense. And he's got,

uh, if he wins, he has a two fight win streak and it's a great matchup anyway. You know, works great for both of them. If Belal wins, that puts him right back in there. If Usum won,

it puts him right back in there. So easy, simple matchup for sure. Yeah. Now, I will admit, I did pick Usman to win on Saturday. I'm not saying that as like I pat myself with the bat. Yeah, I did pick him to win on Saturday. But give him credit because he came back from a, you know, from a two-year layoff to a year

and a half layoff, whatever it was. And, you know, obviously going up to 185 on short notice. But then to come out there and get a guy like Joaquin Buckley, six-fight winning streak looking dominant. I mean, he beat up Colby Covington. I know the fight ended in a weird way with the cut, but he beat up Colby Covington up until that point. I think it says a lot about Kamar Usman. that he's like, give me a guy like Joaquin Buckley.

He didn't come back and say, I'm not, I don't mean this an offensive way. I'm saying like a guy that you're like, oh, yeah, he could take him down and dominate. He didn't come back and say, give me Wonderboy. He didn't say come back and give me the number 12 guy, give me the number 10 guy. He came back and fought a guy on a big win streak who a lot of people thought if he won, he deserved the title shot. He went out there and took that fight and beat him four rounds to one. And the fifth round, did he lose the fifth round?

Sure, but it wasn't like a blowout. It was almost like he was just cruising to victory at that point. huge credit to Usman man I mean that's a tough challenge you could have come back and said no no I want this guy I want that guy cherry pick your opponent a little bit nope give me Joaquin Buckley

six fight winning streak dominating people out there and he was a it was an underdog like it's crazy to me to think about it now I mean after the fact but yeah like you're right everyone was picking Buckley everyone said this is his coming out party he's going to beat up Kamar Usman

get a title shot Kamaro shut that shit down in a hurry absolutely man he looked great doing it too you know I didn't get to watch it at the actual fight, but I've seen some highlights, seeing some clips. And at least from what I seen, I thought he looked great, looked tremendous. And, you know, it certainly followed a great game plan, you know,

but he does best and shut down Buckley. And, you know, I think, you know, Buckley is like, you know, I've been wondering what his ceiling is, you know? I think that's a big question a lot of people have had. Like, what is this ceiling going to be? I feel like just from what I know about the fifth round, like Buckley's ceiling is probably still higher than, you know, losing to Usman 4 to 1, right?

Like he probably could have made it a closer fight from, from everything that I'm gathering here. But, you know, he's going to get his game planning down better, right? And his strategies down better and not be relying on that power and explosiveness so much. Yeah, I agree. I agree. And, you know, it's funny because tomorrow, like, after the fight, he had said, you know, I'm one of the biggest names of division who wouldn't want to see me in a title fight.

He's not wrong. I mean, I think that's a, he's not wrong in it. He said, if Islam wins, that's a massive fight, Jack wins, it's still a massive fight. Here's where that kind of works against Camaro in a way, because you and I know that the UFC always needs main events. They always need big fights to put on cards, and there's

only so many titles to go around. Camaro's in an interesting position because it's almost like when they did what they're doing with Porre and Holloway, and I know that there's a BMF title, but that's not really a title. It's just, you know, it's a, it's a symbol. Or what they did a couple years ago in Jorge Madasel and Colby Covington, where there's so much bad blood there, Kamaro's in a position where he can headline a card with Bilal, and it doesn't need to be a title fight. Like, that's a

rare instance. Because a lot of times, a lot of times when that happens, you're like, okay, you've got to go on a fight night car league. I'm not saying they're going to headline a pay-per-view, but at worst, they could be a good co-main event on a pay-per-view, and no one would bat an eye. Like, you don't need a second title fight. That is a big enough fight because Kamaro's a big enough name. Below's a big enough name, former champion. Like, in a way, it's almost like a blessing and a curse because it's a blessing. He could. I mean, if he gets a title shot, I don't know

too many people would really complain, but he can also headline a card against Balau, I mean, you don't need a title. And I think that says a lot about who Usman is. Yeah, absolutely. And with all due respect to Jack Delamatta, Matalina, I would love to see Kamara fight Islam. I think

that is a tremendous matchup. And I think that is a very, very interesting matchup. Now, if Jack is able to beat Islam, I think that makes an interesting matchup, too, because now we're, we'd be like, okay, well, Jack can beat someone who's going to try to grapple him a lot, right? And we know his boxing is pretty sharp, Jack says. So either way, those make for tremendous matchups. And I mean, B'Lahl is always an interesting matchup. So, you know, boy, it's going to be nothing but exciting times for watching Usman, you know, in this later part of his career. And, um, you know, You know, and he's got the style. He's got the, you know, I guess just overall the style, right, to have some longevity, too. You know, he doesn't usually take a ton of shots.

And he can certainly wrestle very well still. So he's that type of guy, you know, if his knees can hold up. Because that's where everybody talks about, right? Is his knees, his knees, his knees. I think his knees might just be fine. Like, I don't know where all this constantly comes from. like I've never heard Usman complain about his knees he's just like I had surgery you know but

regardless um it's going to be interesting to see how far he can go with this you know like like how long he's the type of he could be like a randy couture type I could totally see that coming out of him like winning titles in his mid-forties at least yeah it's crazy you say that and I don't disagree

I mean he's I think he's 38 right now and I think you looked as good as ever and I think I mentioned this on Saturday you mentioned Leon Edwards, and this is not a knock on Leon Edwards, I said, when you think about it, like, Usman has won more rounds against Leon than he lost. Like, he lost the rematch three to two, and he was winning the other fight three to one when he got knocked out. Now, I mentioned, of course, yes, he did get knocked out, but he won more rounds against Leon than he lost those two fights, and then he goes out there and almost beats Hamza on 10 days' notice of a weight class.

Like, people are so, we are so reactionary in this sport that you're, you know, he's washed, his knees are gone. I think the bigger factor for Camaro is the knees. It's the age. He's 38. And we just know that history says the older you get, the harder it is to stay on top of a division. That's just, that's, you know, it is what it is. That, to me, would be a bigger concern than his knees and everything else. I don't think he's washed at all.

I mean, do we just not watch? Like, don't watch the fights. That just tells me he didn't watch the fights. If you were telling me he's washed because he lost three in a row, you just didn't watch the fights. Right. And I'm not knocking the guy. I know he does a podcast. It didn't look like Henry losing to Song Yadong while the I poke sucked,

and I think that should have been, you know, no contest or whatever. He was getting beat up pretty good in that fight. You know what I mean? When you go back and watch Usman's fights, he was beating Leon. He got caught in the fifth round. It was three to two in the rematch. And then he two one lost to Hamza. And if you had one more round or two more rounds, I think Usman wins that fight.

So I think age is always going to be a factor when you're 38. but I mean, I don't think you're wrong. And I think that says a lot because if he doesn't get another title show, like I wouldn't say it's out of the realm of possibly he beats Belah Muhammad right now and then gets a title shot and wins a title at 40. I mean, I think there's a real world where that happens. Yeah, I mean, I can see him being around for a long time still. Again, you know, his age, stylistically, the way that he fights,

it may not play as big of a role as it does in a lot of people's. You know, he's not an over-reactive type of guy. where he's trying to do explosive stuff all the time. Like he's a fundamental, really, really good wrestler. You know, stays very fundamental on things and grinds out victories, you know. And it just lends perfectly to a long career. So I could see a lot of ways that this goes. You know, and I think a lot of it's going to depend on his own motivation and his own desires, right?

What does he want? And if he wants to be still fighting for a title, was at 45. I could see that guy doing it. Yeah. You know, real quick, before we move on, I want to mention this, how quickly this sport moves on from people. I saw, like, I think Usman did a little bit of matchmaking. Of course, you know, put himself as the, to get the winner of Jack and Islam. And he said, you know, and he said, Wachin can fight Ian Gary. There's a lot of bad blood there. We know that. That would be interesting. Or maybe go fight Carlos Prattis. I think

that would also be a fun fight. And then he said, you know, do shi and he said, you know, do shi and Sean Brady and Bilau or something. I care what the matchmaking was, whatever. But the one guy, I think he said Sean Brady Shavkat, but the reason I'm bringing this up is Shavkat, because how quickly this sport moves on? Because last December he's getting a title shot and undefeated the boogeyman.

He was the guy, right? He was a favorite. And then Balau gets the toe injury, which is certainly not Below's fault. That's part of the sport. He fights Ian Garry, and he wins a really close decision. He squeaks out that win after barely surviving that fifth round. And everyone's like, oh, man, Shafka, there's some chinks in the armor all of a sudden.

And then he gets injured and he can't fight in May. So he has Jack Della Madalana has to step in there. And now we know Islam's getting a title shot. That's happening. We just don't know exactly when. Usman's saying, I want a title shot. And I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that it happens. How bad is this for Shafkad?

The poor guy, like he didn't do anything. I mean, that's how this sport movement. on he's injured and we've just completely moved on beyond him yeah yeah that's how it happens and yeah I mean has there been talk of when he's going to return you know because until that until he's got a fight

booked like that's the the ball's going to keep rolling forward right you know until you get a fight booked that's just the nature of the sport and um you know it's tough for shop cop but look he'll come back you know and we'll see where he's at you know

he'll get a big fight we know he's going to be fighting a top five guy when he comes back and he's going to be tested and I'm sure he'll get a title shot if he wins. Yeah, it'll be interesting. What our storyline I want to mention from Saturday night. I know you didn't get a chance to watch the whole car.

This is more of a generalized question. I'm asking you as a fighter. So there was a weird situation on Saturday night with Rodolfo Bellado and Paul Craig. Rodolfo Bellado got an upkick from Paul Craig and he kind of falls back, kind of looks to the referee and then suddenly

goes unconscious. And Anthony Smith, you know, railed on and basically said, listen, I'm going to be hard on this guy. He's like, you absolutely were not knocked out. You were faking it. You were trying to get out of there with a win. And it, too, it was great. He did get an illegal up kick. That's not fake. When you watch the replay, it is really odd. He

falls back, looks to the referee, like, hey man, you're going to call this foul? And then he just goes unconscious. It's a really bizarre thing, and it's hard not to question that. So, Matt, I know you didn't watch the fight, so I'm not going to ask you to weigh in specifically on Bolato. But I'm curiously, as a guy who's been around

the sport and been around every level. You fought in the dog kennels early on and you fought all the way to the U.S.C. later on. We always say, like, I always say, like, if you step in the cage, like, you know, I defy people when they were like, oh, that guy's a coward, the guy's scared of him. I'm sure there are some guys who have backed away from fights

because they were scared. I don't know names, and they're going to mention names. But by and large, if you're a fighter, you're willing to go in there and fight, because, as you always say, you're willing to go in there and die. But do you think that, I mean, have you seen instances where guys have fake things like that before? Because I'm sure it's happened.

I mean, I just saw Mark Kerr talking about, like, being in pride. And he's like, oh, there were absolutely works in pride. Like, there were 100% works in pride. Is that something you've seen throughout your history? I should name names. But have you seen guys fake things to either get out of a fight or to stop a fight? Have you ever seen that? Man, not at that level.

You know, once you get to the UFC, I've not seen it at that level. Certainly on the lower levels. I've seen, I mean, I've been in locker rooms and watch guys literally get up and walk out the back before. And, you know, that's, again, at the lower level, it's just something that's expected when you're promoting these lower level shows. Like, you just know, like, some guys are just going to, they're just going to drop off. They're just going to, you know, get cold feet and get out of there. And, you know, more power to them, right? They're the ones that got looking themselves in the mirror.

Probably my favorite one was a guy named the Raging Redneck. who he was like 1 and 23 or some shit like that like he lost you know so many fights and they would always announce him as he's won and 17 and but he's never lost the street fight that was that was his standard intro and I remember because what would happen is these promoters would pay him and they knew he was going to take a fall but you know he put on this huge walkout and you know he put on this big show and he would talk all this stuff you get the crowd all fired up and everybody be cheering for him he'd shake he'd walk around the cage and shake it and while the opponent's stand inside of it and then the guy would whiff a punch and he'd just fall and go down right

i think it was a west sims used to put on these uh promote these shows and i just remember one time they used to they used to uh talk in the mic like while the fights were going on right a big, whoa, what a big kick or whatever. And the one time the raging redneck took a fall and the announcer goes, is there a sniper in the crowd? Because I didn't see a punch laying there. So, you know, but at the higher level, man, I've never seen anything like that, you know. And I have no idea what actually happened.

I didn't watch it, you know, I've read enough about it. I don't like necessarily the idea of, you know, imparting our own feelings. or assuming we know what was going on in there because remember one knockout where this guy, he got hit, it was in the UFC, he got punched, cracked right in the jaw, and then he kind of stood there for a minute and was like, I think he might have even thrown a punch or two,

and then he stepped back and fell over and got knocked unconscious. Yeah, these kind of odd things happen. So I don't want to necessarily, you know, say that, you know, he didn't get hurt or whatever. But he also has to understand, you know, the optics of what he did, right? Whether he faked it or not. And, you know, so he can only defend himself so much, right? Because, like, if it looks that way, that's the way it looks.

And that's just what it is. But the fact is, you know, to assume we know what actually happened, you know, I just think it's a I just think that's a difficult thing to do. Well, I'm not going to sit there and just defend Rodolfo Bellato, but I think weirdly to me it's like, well, he was winning the fight and he did get hit with an illegal kick. There's 100% no, there's no, you know, that's no fake in there. He did get kicked with an illegal upkick.

I just don't see the benefit because ultimately got a no contest. Like, you don't know they're going to give you the win. And that's like, I didn't agree. I mean, in my head, I'm like, it should have been a disqualification. You throw an illegal kick and the guy can't continue. I don't know why you're getting a no contest over a DQ. But to me, it's weird that a guy would just be like, let me take that risk.

Like, let me take that chance in a fight I'm already winning and pretend I'm knocked out so I can maybe get my bone. I just find a hard to believe that a guy does that at this level. I'm sure you said, you know, guys do it on the lower level, regional shows, whatever. But you're in the UFC, man. And you know, like, I know this is a totally different situation, by the way. I'm 100% not putting

Rodolfo Bellado in this bucket, but I mean, we just saw this whole controversy with James Kraus. Like, when there was an accusation of fight fixing, dude's banned. Like, he can't come anywhere near the sport anymore because of that. And we're not even sure that was, that was the guy was injured going into a fight, and he bet on his guy losing.

You know what I mean? Like, I guess that's totally fight fixing because you know the guy's injured is not going to win, but like, that guy got blackball. Like, he can't come anywhere near the sport. You know what I mean? Like, so for you to fake a knock, a knockout in that instance, it just seems like a really weird thing to do.

I'm not saying he couldn't have done it. I'm just saying it seems unlikely in that situation. You'd risk that. And then it didn't pay off. You got a no contest. You didn't get a win. You don't get your bonus. Well, I'll tell you, in the moment, you know, those types of things are certainly not.

He's not logicking through his head, right? So, again, whether he faked it or not, you know, I don't think anyone is ever really going to know except for him. He's the one who's got to look at himself in the mirror. And the issue with that, you know, is he just allowed himself to be a coward. And now when he goes in and fights again, he'll be a coward again.

Like he'll never be a great fighter. Now, if he didn't fake it, now he's going to come back with a vengeance probably, right? Now he's going to come back and show everybody. You know, I'm the warrior that I promote myself to be. So, you know, I think we'll, you know, one thing about fighting is if you do it long enough, like we find out exactly who you always.

are on the inside, right? It exposes a lot of the deepest parts of your, your soul and and who you are on the inside. So there's no covering that up over time, right? We, over time, like, we figure out who everybody is in the sport. And I think, you know, in the future, I think it'll be, to be seen who he truly is, you know, if we continue watching him fight. 100%. 100%. Matt, before we get out of here, I want to bring this up because this popped up like a week ago, and it's already been kind of like people poured cold water on it.

In a very off-the-cuff moment in a podcast, Eric Nixick, who's an incredible coach, head coach out of Extreme Couture, more or less is something to the extent of, like I think Francis would be open to a reunion with the UFC. I think the conversation is coming up because of the old Tom Aspinall and John Jones fiasco and, you know, fight, isn't it going to happen,

is it not going to happen? And he kind of made an off-the-cuff remark saying, I think he'd be open to a return to UFC. course everyone picked up on that. Even John was like, now that's a fight. Do we get me excited? I would fight Francis in a second. That's the one.

And Francis is like, okay, but I'm not in the UFC. Let's talk to PFL and UFC, which you and I both know they're never going to work together. And then someone brought up to Dana. And Dana's like, yeah, probably not. Probably not. Probably not bringing Francis back. So Francis is under contract to PFL. He ain't fighting John Jones.

He's probably never come back to the UFC. He's 38, 39 years old. Not happening. But here's my question, Matt, because as we're getting, you know, we talked about this a couple of times when he brought up the old Aspenol thing. I said, we moved on so quickly because two or three years ago was we need to see Francis and John. That was the fight.

He leaves. Now it's John and Tom, and no one's even mentioning Francis. I know part of that is he's in the PFL, but like, when we're debating who is the best heavyweight in the sport, we're debating John, we're debating Tom. Francis is almost out of that equation. Now,

here's a question, Matt, because Francis left to do what he wanted to do, which is the boxing match, as he got to fight Tyson Fury, you got to fight Anthony Joshua, maybe he'll do another one. I don't know. He is still under contract to PFL.FL. He had one fight. He took out Hina Ferreira. Yeah, Hina Ferreira. And then we still don't know what else is going to be alive for him. So here's my question, Matt, looking back now, knowing that there is the potential of him fighting John Jones or Tom Asperall, John would be a bigger fight. We know that.

did Francis make the right move going out of the UFC because right now I know this is hindsight is 2020 I understand that we can look back and say well he lost a fury very close fight he got knocked cold by Anthony Joshua and he beat a kind of a forgettable heavyweight and I think that paper you did like 10,000 buys did not do well

did Francis make a mistake leaving the UFC Well, you'd have to define what mistake is, right? Because for his pockets, he did not make a mistake, right? Fighting Tyson Fear and Anthony Joshua win or loss, he made a lot of fucking money that he was not going to make in the UFC. Legacy-wise, you say he's already forgotten in terms of the heavyweight division in MMA. So legacy-wise, I think it damages legacy tremendously. You know, had he won those boxing matches, you know,

that would have obviously helped his legacy a shit done, right? And, you know, like, for instance, after he fought Tyson Fear the first time, and I think a lot of us believe that he won, I think it was, you know, pretty close and debatable, but, you know, I would argue that he probably won. I don't think anybody was arguing that it was a bad move at that point, right? It's after he lost, and now the UFC's like, whatever, bro, do your thing. now everybody's asking if that's a if it's a if it's a if it was a mistake um but he made more money in those two matches than he could have made uh fighting in the ufc for the next 10 years so

you know was it a mistake on that part no but his legacy is going to suffer like he's not going to be in the talks of the greatest heavyweight ever period it's weird because and I know everybody fights for different things like and I'm using you as an example like, I know you said, and you talked about it on our show before, like you said, like there's probably times when you could have negotiated harder to get more money for the UFC, but you wanted to fight and you fought and you love fighting. Now, I think you still say for the most part you were fairly happy with your compensation. I don't think you really made that many complaints about it, but you had a different reason

for, right? You loved fighting. That was your thing. You, now, not so you didn't get paid for, but you love fighting. I understand both aspects, like prize fighting. Like you are a prize fighter. should go out there and get the biggest prize. But the other side is, like, when it's all said and done, you're going to leave with a big bank account,

but now you're going to leave with people saying, well, you weren't the best heavyweight ever or maybe even close to that because beating up Hina Ferreira and Dennis Goldsov or whoever other heavyweights they got over in the PFL are not going to get you closer to that goal. Right. So it is a weird thing, right? Because you can say, well, he didn't make a mistake because he got paid a boatload of money for those two boxing matches. And he's probably going to live the rest of his life off those two fight. Like he probably never has to work another day in his life because he has those two fright purses. But then you flip the other side, we'll say, okay, so how are we going to remember Francis?

His career's not over, by the way. He's still fighting. But like, how are we going to remember him? We're going to remember him as one of the greatest heavyweights of all the time? Are we going to have that little asterisk next to his name to say what could have been, right? Because he left and he just doesn't have competition to PFL. Yeah, that's exactly it. And get loose in those two boxing matches was probably the biggest.

the worst thing it could have happened for him, right? Because, you know, it just humanized them a lot. And, you know, financially, again, it lined his pockets. He did great. And that's, like you said, you know, ultimately, that's what this is. It's what's prize fighting. He got the biggest prize. So who are we to say that he made a mistake?

You know, so it depends, again, depends on what you care about. And my guess is Nixick speaking for Francis is saying he does care about his legacy. And that's why he would be open to a UFC return because he does care about that legacy. And that's probably hitting him a little harder now. Like, oh, my legacy, I need the UFC for my legacy. And that's all there is to it. And that's unfortunate. But look, he made his money.

And, you know, all it comes down to is, You know, if he's happy with that, then good for him. You know, I think it's tough for us to call it a mistake, though. I'll lean a little hard, just to open up the conversation. I will lean a little bit harder towards the mistake part. Here's the main thing. Now, it's because of boxing that he made the money. He didn't make it in the PFL.

I'm not saying PFL is paying peanuts. I'm saying like he didn't. He did it because Tyson Fury is a massive name, Anthony, Joshua is a master name. He put Francis in Gano, and it's a big combustible engine. and I'm sure Turkey paid them both a boatload of money for doing that. So it's hard to judge on that factor because, you know, as you said, he probably got paid 10 times more for those two fights that he ever would have made in the UFC. But then you do look at the UFC, you think, well, John Jones,

I know John Jones has been fighting for, you know, 15 years, and he's a multi-time champion and, you know, whatever. But I would imagine John Jones is living pretty comfortably. Like, I don't think he's wanting for anything. I would imagine when his career is over, he's going to be pretty well. taking care of in terms of finances. Now, does he have 30 million extra in the bank like Francis probably does? Maybe not, but at some point, it's like the billionaire conversation.

At some point, how much money do you really need? Yeah. Your Elon must, do you need $50 billion? Or could you live comfortably on $20 billion? I don't think your lifestyle changes the whole lot between $50 and $20 billion. So I guess the way I push back on a little bit is just saying that like, I think you could have made a lot of money in the U.S. Let's say he would have made as much.

I know he wouldn't have made as much. I know for a fact he wouldn't have made as much. But if he would have stayed and fought John, and let's say he knocked out John and became the guy to beat John Jones, and they were offering him, you know, three or four million dollars plus a back end on the pay-per-view, which would have been a big pay-per-view. Now, he wouldn't have made Tyson Fury money.

I understand that. But he would have made, let's just throw out a number and say 10 to 12 million. That seems to be like on the high end of what a guy would make for a big pay-per-view to fight. And then let's say he goes out and fights Tom Abbott. hospital, which now was even bigger of a fight or, you know, whatever. I'm not saying he shouldn't have done it because we have those two paydays that are just in disputal. They're just so big.

It's hard to not mind. And he's in a special situation because not everyone could do that. Outside of him and Connor, no one's been able to cross over in boxing and actually do that. But I say mistake in that sense, because if he would have stayed in the UFC, he wouldn't have made as much money, but he still would have made a lot of money. and he would have had the chance to solidify himself as possible the greatest heavyweight of all time. So that's my only pushback to that.

I'm saying he would have still made a lot of money. Not as much. I get that. But he still would have made a lot. And his legacy would be better. So that's where I kind of lean towards sort of a mistake because I don't think he'd be like, I don't think he'd be on front of a store with a cup of pencils

begging for money just because he was in the UFC. No, that's very true. And that's where, you know, Francis has to decide on his own but you know i'm going to guess where francis is also looking at is just the as a pure businessman as a business side of it you know and he's like his opposition to that is going to be like okay well this fight brought in you know just arbitrary numbers say a hundred million dollars and i'm getting three of that and the ufc's getting 97 of it whereas in boxing i'm getting 50 up and they're getting 50 of it he's gonna be like why am i selling my

short here, you know, regardless of whether I need 50 or whether three, you know, make me happy for the rest of my life, you know, you feel like you're being more of a, being used a little bit, you know, and I think that was honestly probably a bigger role in it than him actually just needing that much money and him feeling like he's a cog in the wheel versus being a wheel or, or, you know, just being used for something. And, um, and that principle, I think, you know, the underlying principles of it all. It probably played a bigger role than, you know, am I going to be happy on $3 million for the rest of my life or $20 million or whatever it is, right?

And to me, that's probably where his mind goes more so. But when it's all said and done, I think, I mean, unless something bizarre happens because Dana said, I know Dana said probably not, that doesn't really mean anything in the long run. I think I think Francis still has a fight or maybe two left on his PFL deal. I don't know how that's going to play out. know he still wants to do boxing. I think he's talked about your Deonti Wilder has a fight coming up and I think this weekend,

if I'm not mistaken, or next weekend, I can't remember. But anyways, how are we going to remember, Francis? Because I think that, like, I think that comes down. He'll be happy. I don't know what his specific worldview is. And, you know,

it's a, it's a, I think that gets in pretty deep conversation, pretty deep subject, like because um and i just only think of like how i think about things uh i don't know again his own personal world view but it's like when we talk about being remembered it's like well just how far do you want to zoom out you know like might be remembered for a thousand years i mean in i don't know what what a million years like we're not is nobody's going to remember it right and i mean in 10 000 years like we're going to be the ancient americans right so it's like

you know and you know very few names are going to be remembered so it's like you know, how far do you want to zoom out when you talk about being remembered and, you know, how much do you actually care about that versus, you know, get what you can get while you can get it? And, you know, again, I think it probably just probably crosses over into deeper conversation that we'd have to kind of pick Francis's own brain on. Yeah, I just think it's interesting because in a lot of ways, you know, Francis really has become out of sight out of mind. And that's just the nature of not being in the UFC.

You can say what you want about the UFC and they got this and they got that. And we talked about there's lawsuits going on right now about the monopolization of the sport. But it is bigger. You know, like I said, like when you, and, you know, he can, he can spark Canaan Frera in whatever was two minutes. That's just not going to, like I said, we've moved on. Like we now, like no one's taught. And I understand he's not in the organization. But like, I didn't hear anyone like, oh, man, we really missed out on Francis.

No, it's we want to see Tom and John. No, I've never heard anyone say, man, I really wish it wasn't, it wasn't until that conversation last week when I was like, oh yeah, Francis. Everyone else is like, Tom John, that's the fight we got to see. No one even mentions Francis. And that's how quickly we move on. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, does Francis care? I could tell you if I was in the situation, if I had $30 million, you probably wouldn't hear from me either, motherfucker.

So, you know, he might prefer it that way too, right? Maybe he's a more private person. Again, it's, you know, I don't, it's hard to speculate, you know, on him, on another person personally, you know, what their kind of mentality is and what they want out of life and everything. But, but, yeah, I mean, you're totally right, though, right? Like, I mean, nobody cares about Francis at this point in terms of MMA. No one, you know, you don't even hear people talking about him fighting. I don't know how much people really care about him even boxing anymore. but he also got paid probably more than any combat sports athlete in history,

except maybe Connor. And I bet Francis probably made more than Connor because he had two big primetime boxing matches. So, you know, how much can we really argue, right? Yeah, it's true. It is true. But that's the nature of this beast. Like I said, when you're not, you're out of sight, out of mind. And for all intents and purposes, Francis is probably out of sight, out of mind forever.

Like he's probably never going to have that again. And that's fine. He's got the money. And I said, like, I'm happy for him to make the money. But, you know, there's the other side, which is you can gain a lot of money and also a lot of notoriety and a whole lot of legacy being the EOC. And I think that's, you know, we consider and judge now because he lost the boxing matches. Had he beaten Tyson Fury, we'd be having a whole other conversation. Very different.

But the reality is we do know the situation. He lost controversial or not. and then he got absolutely demolished by Anthony Joshua. Now we can have that conversation to say, did you make a mistake? So I understand. We're judging after the fact. And I would also argue that even though he lost,

like he had the courage, he had the balls and the guts to take that chance. And he got paid well for it. So he took the chance of, you know, had he won those, like he would be considered one of the greatest combat sports athletes in history. You know, so he went for the,

he shot for the moon, right? He went for as much as he could, and he didn't get it, but he had the balls to go for it. So you got to respect that. I'll tell you what, do you give me $30 million. I'll step in there and then I think Joshua tomorrow. I'll take a punch and not that's what I'm saying.

And probably wouldn't hear a word from you ever again. Nope, that'd be the end of that. I don't get a lot. Exactly. I'm on the way to the bank. I'm out of here, bitch. Yeah, I know it is. But like you said, like there's no way you can't,

You have to acknowledge, like, his legacy is damaged, but how much does he even care? Like, he's like, I got $30 million in the bang. Like, how much do I care? And every fighter is different. Like, I think the whole conversation around John and Tom, like, I do think money matters. But I think John, for the last, like, four or five years, it's all about legacy for John. Like, he wants to go down as the greatest ever. That matters to him.

It matters for him to be regarded. And I say it constantly. He is the greatest of all time to me by a wide margin. and I know the asterisk is there with the steroid thing, but for me, John Jones is the greatest. I think that matters more to John. I'm not saying he doesn't want to get paid and he should get paid for fighting Tom Aspinall.

But I think legacy matters more to John versus, I'm not saying he doesn't get paid, but I think John, John going down is the best ever. That matters to him. Like, he wants people to be. I would also argue, do you know, does John have other options to make more money, though? Like, you know, I don't see John going over to boxing.

No. I don't even think he would do well in boxing anyway. And that's really the only other option that's going to bring you more money. So, you know, so he's obviously that he's had discussions with the UFC to try to get more money out of them. And I think that's where he's at right now with Tom and everything. That's the big thing. So, you know, so I think that's a, that's kind of a tough argument to make too because it's like, you know, he is arguing or negotiating for more money every time. but it's like what what's his uh you know what what's his card you know what card is he playing

you know he's going to say you know either i fight or i don't you know and how much does the ufc even care if he fights i mean of course they want him to fight right and they'll pay him a certain amount um but they're not going to break the bank for john jones right they're they're smashing all their records without him so you know francis again he had the balls to try something else, right? So that card that he played, he said, well, I'm going to go over here and I'm going to make all the money and potentially be the greatest.

So I'm not, I guess all I'm saying is like, I'm not necessarily going to say for John, it's all about legacy, whereas Francis, it was, I think he had a lot to do with Legacy too. He wanted to go into boxing and be the champion. I think he had that totally, it wasn't just a money play. It was like, if I go over to boxing and I beat Tyson Fury and Anthony Joshua, I'm the greatest motherfucker in history.

So, you know, I think there's a lot of nuance in there. Yeah, I know you're absolutely right. I think the one thing he did do, and I'm not saying it can never happen, but I think the Connor and Francis experiments have kind of told us, like, we're done with the crossover fights. I mean, unless you're Jake Paul and you're just going to continue to pull out random MMA guys to fight or, you know, 38-year-old guys coming out of rehab, like Julio Cesar.

Has there been, I know how I got on this, Jake Paul conversation all of a sudden, but I got to bring this up. He's fighting in like two weeks. I've not heard anyone. I didn't even know. Yeah. Fighting Chavez. Like, dude, I think the Jake Paul experiment is slowly dying because if you continue to fight

MMA guys and 58 year old Mike Tyson and 38 year old, his height for this fight is so hilariously bad. Like, he's like, he went 12 rounds with Canello. Yeah, a decade ago. Like, what are we doing? Like, you didn't even know this fighting. I think the Jake Paul thing is kind of like fading away. Well, let's see kind of how it plays out the next few weeks.

He said he's fighting in two weeks because... He's fighting the same night as Ilya and Charles Olivera. The same night. Okay, so we still got to take our time a little bit and see kind of how this plays out because we know how social media and the world of marketing is these days where some shit could go viral within... hours, right, or whatever, and it could end up being a huge thing that we're all talking about

the Monday after, even though two weeks out or whatever it is, we're not really even thinking about it. And Jake knows that. He knows what he's doing. I don't know, man. I'm like, I think you know what you're doing, but the Chavez fight was, that's the first way. I mean, even the Tyson fight, which was, you know, pretty egregiously bad because the guy was almost

60 years old and hadn't fought in a really competitive fight in many many years. Chavez was the one I was like really Like that just I have like At least there was like the interest factor when he fought Mike Perry I'm like oh yeah that's kind of fun Mike Perry is a slugger and it's gonna be some good trash talk And I'm like Chavez

Like Chavez lost to Anderson Silva The guy you already beat like what are we getting out of this Chavez Why like really? Like you know it's like what's next You're gonna bring a Vanderholyfield out of retirement? Like what are we doing here? Like what are you doing Jake? Man it'd be interesting

In some regards where more about Chavez than about Jake Paul because if Chavez actually trains which I don't think he's ever actually trained but if he actually does I mean he could make it an interesting fight like Chavez I mean he's a spoiled kid

we all know this like he's he's never trained well he hasn't had that many great performances but when he was on those very very few times like he is a good boxer yeah it'll be interesting but I brought that up just saying like I think the MMA Cross

over experiment has kind of died now. Like, I think, you know, Perry took a shot against Jake Paul, which, you know, the Jake Paul thing, that's the influencer thing. And we have seen some guys go over and have that success. But I think France is getting, you know, beaten a couple times, the second time, most notably. And then, of course, Connor, losing to Mayweather in pretty dominant fashion. Like, I think that crossover appeals gone. Because I don't know who would do it now.

I mean, you know, like Max Holloway is a pretty good boxer. Dustoporier is retiring. But, like, now I think the whole crossover thing, I think that's. kind of faded away. So credit to Francis, because he may have gotten the last big paydays for an MMA guy going over to boxing. I don't know anyone else is really going to foot $30 million for an MMA

guy coming over. Yeah, that's one of those things we always say that's the last of them. It's gone. And then it pops right back in our face and we're like, well, how the fuck did this happen? That's true. You know, it's just like we've been hearing from boxing for 20 years now.

Like boxing's dead and there's not going to be any more champions. and now one of the, probably one of the biggest cards in history is coming up, you know, with Canello and Crawford. So. On Netflix. I mean, how insane is that? It's on Netflix. I know everyone's like, it's on Netflix.

It's not free. You're still paying for Netflix. But you're paying 15 bucks for Netflix versus $90 or $100. Like, dude, that's, this is why. And I know we got to get out here, but I say this. This is why I'm convinced, like, when the UFC finishes their TV deal, I'm starting to feel like pay for yous going to. way. When you can give, when you

can put Canello and Terrence Crawford, which is the biggest boxing match, which you I mean, you're a bigger boxing guy. It's the biggest boxing match this year by a wide margin, right? Oh, easy for this year. But yeah. Yeah. Again, it might be one of the biggest in the, excuse me, the decade.

So you're giving that on Netflix. It's not free, but you're not charging people 90 bucks to watch it. Dude, pay-per-view's dying. Like, I think the writing's on the wall. And I think the fact that they're and this is involvement with TKO, like Dana's promoting this, I think writings on the wall do pay-per-views might be going away.

This might be like December, when they do the December pay-per-view. That might be the last UFC pay-per-view. That'd be interesting. You know, I'm not even a Netflix subscriber, but I'll be resubscribing to get on the Canelo Crawford trains. I'll be one of those millions that are going to jump on. And I bet you feel a whole lot better about spending $15 versus like $100 or whatever. Yeah, and I also know that I'm going to forget to cancel

and I'll end up giving them, you know, because I never watched TV, and I'll end up giving them over $100 total for watching that one fight. Yeah, but I think that, like, when that got announced and it went to Netflix, it's like, ooh, that's a game changer because that's a guaranteed money you're going to, you're going to make, you know, $800,000,000 buys, potentially, which is a lot of money. The fact they're putting on Netflix is a lot about where the sport is going. And that was, that was the moment I was like, man, you would ask me a year, go, I said the UFC's never going to get rid of pay-per-view,

but now, like, dude, like Amazon pays or Netflix pays or one of these places to pay, like, I think we may be nearing the end of an era of pay-per-view in the UFC. Like, we may be getting to that point where it's going to be, like, you've got to have an Amazon subscription, you've got to have a Netflix subscription, but you're going to get to watch the UFC

for, you know, for free, quote-unquote. You're going to watch all those fights. Dude, I'm telling you, I think that didn't give it this fight to Netflix was like, ooh, that's a wake-up call. Like, I feel like the UFC pay-per-view is dying. Yeah, you got to wonder if that's them, you know, starting the process of putting the UFC on Netflix or something, right? Because with TKO, I don't know.

You know, I don't know if I plays a role in everything because, you know, what was in April, right? It was the end of the deal. And we still haven't heard anything yet. Yeah, we're still waiting to hear. So, I mean, I think we're going to hear soon, like soonish. I think within the next month or so, we're probably going to find out for sure what's going on. But, yeah, I don't know. it's going to be interesting.

You know, like I said, the fact that they put that, the biggest boxing match the year, the one that you know is going to sell. They put on Netflix. I'm like, man, like, you know, I like, you know, I like I like I, Eliy Tepori and Charles Oliver. It's an incredible fight. How nice would it be just to flip on your Netflix subscription and just watch that fight on a Saturday night versus paying $90 to watch it, you know?

Absolutely, yeah. Or even better to have it a Sunday morning on replay. And you got to remember the other side of this the other day. It was like, oh, the money, the money, the money's a money. part, I get the money, it's important, but you got to remember the other side is the exposure. Because look at what Jake Paul and Mike Tyson realized. They're like, okay, probably not going to get a lot of people to pay a bunch of money to watch a 60-year-old Mike Tyson fight Jake Paul. But you put on Netflix and everyone already has a Netflix subscription, everyone, and 100 million people.

Now, think about that with the UFC. They sell a pay-per-view for 200,000 buys, 250,000 buys. Okay, that's great. You go on Netflix and maybe you get 10 million people watching. What's better? $250,000 buys or 10 million people tuned in to watch a UFC fight, and now they're going to go buy T-shirts, they're going to go buy tickets to the next show,

they're going to go by, you know, support their favorite fighter, they're going to go, whatever. So which is more valuable, you know what I mean, in the long run? I think that in the long run, having 10 million people, 20 million people watch your show, that's way bigger. Absolutely.

Couldn't agree more, man. It's a crazy new world we're coming into here. It is. All right, we're going to get out of here. Obviously, I want to say a big thank you to everyone that tunes in the show. every week. Matt, you're out there rocking the guitar, doing everything's work. Where can people check you out? They want to support you.

At I am the immortal Instagram and Twitter, the immortal Matt Brown on Facebook. Appreciate all you guys, love and support. Let's go. Love it. And we'll be back next week. Make sure you check us out, as always, in all your favorite podcast platforms, Apple, podcast, Spotify. And, of course, over on the best website in the world, MMAFighting.com.

For Matt Brown, I am Damon. Martin. We'll see you next week for another addition to the fighter versus the writer. Thanks for doing it. We'll see you then. To the Vox Media Podcast Network.