MMA Fighting - Fighter vs. Writer: Matt Brown Addresses Khamzat Chimaev Winning a ‘Boring’ Title Fight Plus What’s Next for Aaron Pico After Devastating Knockout Loss

Episode Date: August 19, 2025

On the latest episode of The Fighter vs. The Writer, Matt Brown and Damon martin react to everything that unfolded at UFC 319 including Khamzat Chimaev shutting down Dricus du Plessis to become middleweight champion in the main event. As dominant as it was, did Chimaev deserve criticism for not taking more chances to potentially go for a finish? Plus we discuss Aaron Pico suffering a devastating knockout loss in his octagon debut and where Lerone Murphy goes from here with that win. We’ll also talk about Carlos Prates’ spinning back elbow knockout and where he ranks among the hardest hitting welterweights of all time plus much more. Subscribe to MMA Fighting Check out our full video catalog Like MMA Fighting on Facebook Follow on Twitter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Enjoy a Coca-Cola for a pause that refreshes. You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. Welcome back to the Fighter versus the writer. I'm Damon. He is UFC legend Matt Brown and Matt. I have to eat a little crow on this Monday as we record this episode because one of us was right and one of us was completely wrong. I was completely wrong.

Drinkus Duplice did not do what I thought he was going to do. Instead, it was Hamza Tchamai of dominating for five rounds, becoming the new UFC Middleweight champion, and you were front and center for the event in Chicago. Yeah, what a great event, man. I'll tell you what, that was, I've been to a decent amount of UFCs. That was one of the better crowds. I mean, you know, of course we dealt with the whole USA chance, even when, I think even when, like, American guys weren't fighting.

They weren't even, like, cheering for the American people. guy and they would still chant USA. I think they even started chaining a little bit during the DDP and Homs off fight. And I was like, neither one of these guys are Americans. You guys know that? That's hilarious. But it was a great crowd, though, man.

It's just very loud. Like, you know, he got deafening at times, and particularly before the main event, which is what we'll be talking about today, I'm sure. Yeah. And they gave you a little love on the broadcast. I love seeing that one. They showed you out there. most most most most most most most most most knockouts in welterweight history i think it was the graphic so you know

i didn't see the graphic so yeah yeah i think it said matt i think it said matt brown most knockouts in wild to head history so i'd most i can't what the actual graphics have it was like one of your stats so i'll take that any day bro you good promo um unfortunately it wasn't on the paper view i ever think it was at the end of the ESPN card right i think yeah i think it was at the end of the prelands before the pay-per-view so yeah whatever is what it is but it was a good time man um a lot of good people there. Had good people sitting around me. Sometimes, you know, you never know, right?

Because there's, some fighters are kind of loud or annoying or whatever, but this time it was really good. But the only bone I would pick would be with Gilbert Burns. Because he likes, he was sitting right in front of us, well, two rows in front of us. But he kept getting up on his seat. I was like, Gilbert, like, my girlfriend's here. She can't see, bro. Come on.

He gets a little rowdy. Yeah, I mean, he was definitely getting into it. And understandably so, right? Like he fought Hamza and, you know, the other fight. I think it was like his friend was fighting or something. You know, somebody that trains with maybe, maybe something I can't. Like totally understandable. I'm not mad or anything, but it was just kind of comical.

I was like, we've got to look at your fro the whole time. That's hilarious. Just sit on your seat, bro. There's people behind you. That's hilarious. That's hilarious. So you were front and center. Obviously, I watched it on pay-per-view.

One of the last ever pay-per-views just to kind of mention. and that. And Hamzot was, I mean, that was pretty much a dominant performance you could get. What was it like just in the arena watching him go out there and do? I mean, you said it and I'll give you 100% great. You said, I believe Hamzot is that dude. Well, he is that

dude. He went out there and dominated Drichus in a way that no one had ever done. I mean, Drickus had never lost the UFC, but no one had even come close to doing that to Drickis in the UFC. And Hamzot just from pillar to post, it was a one-sided fight. Yeah, I mean, to some extent, you know, I mean, I definitely

I agree with a lot of the fans, you know, the whole boring thing, right, which I'm sure we'll be talking about at some point, which, you know, I'm not necessarily fault him for being boring. But, you know, he wasn't really close to finishing at any point, you know. So when we say he's that guy, you know, when you're that dominant, I do kind of feel like you should be able to at, or you should at least take the risk and go for a finish at some point. And I think he was trying.

I mean, DDP stuff, like I'm not falling and homest up for that. But, you know, when you say that guy, you're like, okay, that guy's got to be a finisher too to be that guy, right? Yeah, 100%. I mean, I think that if there was one criticism, you give a Homzlott, it's that, right? Like, he had him into crucifix.

And credit to Dracus for turning his head and kind of trying to avoid the shots. But, you know, we've seen guys get, you know, just elbowed to hell in that position. It seemed like Homzlott was kind of punching and not really elbowing, which was kind of weird. Like, you kind of wait for a guy to kind of drop that inside elbow.

And he even has, now you have 12 to six elbows. Like, he didn't do that either, which I don't know if that's a rule thing that he didn't realize he could do that. I think if that's like I don't The boring thing doesn't I don't like what are you supposed to He's out wrestling him It's up to Drickus to get back up he couldn't do it

But I think if there was one Slight criticism it's just that Hamzot has so much control Why not take a couple more chances to just put him away Yeah and again we can't fault him for that You know it's so easy to say When we're sitting out here right He's the one feeling things and he's the one

Sensing DDP and look DDP is a tough son of a bitch, you know, like he's not a guy you want to be taking a bunch of wrist with. I thought Hamzaa fought very intelligently. You know, I do feel like he, you know, again, watching from the outside, it's like I feel like he could have done more. But that's, you know, such armchair quarterbacking. And, you know, it's like what kind of like he won basically a 10-8 round, probably three

or four rounds in a world championship fight. Like, you know, do you really want to criticize that? that, you know. But at the same time, you know, I do get the criticism, right, because we're saying he's that guy. And then he kind of goes out and, and just does what he has to do to win, which is what you're supposed to do. You know, I haven't said arguments, but I was kind of explained that to some of the people saying around like, oh, he's being born. I was like, guys, like, this is a prize fight and he's going to win the prize. That's his object of this fight is to win the prize not to make you happy because you, you know, want to see blood.

So yeah. Yeah, you can't really. There's so little criticism you can pull out of that outside of, you know, again, if you want to go into the boring stuff. But like, what an amazing fight, man. And I guess, you know, I think where everybody was kind of let down, especially like in the arena, he was so intense walking out, you know, and like you see Hamza, you know, the fucking wolf coming out, right?

They both had great walkouts. And, you know, Hamzat's an intimidating-looking guy, and they're staring each other down, walking to the center, pushing each other, pushing each other's face. And Hamzat's, I'm just going to take you down, bro. Again, no fault at all to it, but it just kind of cracked me up a little bit

because, you know, everybody's standing at the beginning of the fight, and everybody's, you can feel the tension in the air, right? And Hamzot's like, no, we're not, this isn't going to be intense, guys. He busted that balloon pretty quick. I mean, he got that first. Were you, we're used to, like, Hobbs not out wrestling anybody should not be a shock,

should not be a surprise, certainly wasn't to me. I mean, I was impressed he was able to do it over five rounds. We all had questions about could he have his cardio and conditioning. He went out there and, I mean, there was no doubt he did it. But I think if there was one like, even me, like, I admit, like I picked Juerkus to win the fight mostly because I thought he'd be able to take over in later rounds. But it almost seemed like he just didn't, he didn't have an answer.

Now, I'm not saying like you have to be a world-class, wrestler but like he just had no answer to the wrestling like he had no scramble to get out of there like he just got trapped and he couldn't get out now he obviously got to give a huge amount of credit to homzah for doing that but we've seen great wrestlers like get out of great wrestling like you've seen great wrestlers get countered in the fight and it just seemed like I'm not going to say he didn't train for it I'm certainly I'm certainly he did but it just seemed like once homzot got a hold him he just didn't have an answer yeah and you know realistically excuse me he did a lot of things obviously like not championship level

fighting techniques. You know, he did sort of like what you see lower level guys doing, you know, like holding on when Hamzaa was in side control and leaving his arms out to get crucifixed and, you know, credit to DDP for his toughness. But he's going to have to up his technique.

And that was why I picked Hamzaa. I said, look, you know, these guys, you can get away with a lot in MMA with toughness, scrambling, cardio, desire to win, will, all these things. But then when you come across a guy that knows the techniques in and out as well as Hamza, like it just doesn't work against that guy, right? It works against guys that are trying to learn how to wrestle or start, you know, start wrestling after they started fighting, you know, things like that.

And you can rely on athleticism and all these things. but, you know, I got to chew my horn a little bit. I mean, I thought I called it almost perfectly. I thought Hamza would be able to finish him. I think he was close to finishing a couple of times with, you know, especially like Americana type stuff, you know, his arms, you know, I guess he kind of got close on some rear naked, but DDP did a good job of defending that. But like, you've got to do some technical things.

You got to make space. You got to build frames. You got to scramble. You got to use your hips. And DDP seemed like he was just. kind of using a lot of muscle to try to get up and Hamzad just crushed it. And, you know, in retrospect, it was like, it was kind of an easy pick, really. But that's, you know, you need to hear of there.

The last thing I want to do on a couple days after a fight is to kick a guy while he's down. But I can't not, I can't not bring this up because afterwards, you know, DDP's coach talked to my friends over at submission radio. his head coach, Manir, Visser, excuse me. And he basically said, here's the quote. I'm quoting him directly. Just I want to hear you the quote. He said, I'm not,

I'm not sleeping until we got the belt back. The guys who support blanket-style MMA blanket wrestling, we are in the real fight game. And we'll be back again and surprise you with just taking that belt back. Now, that's his coach. That's not DDP saying that. But, you know, just like you, you're a coach. You kind of represent your fighter, right?

Like that's kind of what a coach or even a manager does. I think it's sour grapes to come out afterwards and say blanket style. Like that bugged me because I'm like, dude, you lost. Like it sucks and that doesn't mean you can't get back there again, but we want real fights. This is this is the UFC. Like this isn't, if you want to be in a kickboxing match, go do glory. Or if you want to do, you know, you want to do something like you want to do boxing, go do boxing. But the idea that like this blanket, like he sucks.

has criticism of Hamzat's style and like we're here for a real fight well you were in a real fight on Saturday and your guy got dominated for five rounds like I hate that aftermath of like suddenly now the tune changes yeah because when you think about it too you know you would talk about okay a real fight well if there's a real fight you know Hamza up there wouldn't been rounds right Hamzot would just stayed on top of them until the DDP just simply gave up right it's on the burdens on DDP to get up so yeah I don't I don't necessarily like that mentality you know, and maybe that was just too soon after the fact, right? Like, you know, it's Monday or Sunday or whatever, and he's just like, you know, very frustrated

and thought that, you know, thought they had a right game plan or whatever. But, you know, that mentality is not going to win the rematch against Humzat. Right? Like, you got to start thinking, respecting that game plan and figuring out a way around the game plan, right, and figuring out how to impose your own strategy. but criticizing what Hamzaa did is not going to help and you know and I would say we do got to credit Dracus for hanging in there for five rounds and fighting even in the fifth round you know he he finally had some chances in the fifth round like he fought the entire time you know you got to credit the

hell out of him I mean what a fucking warrior man I mean this guy you know took a beating the whole time I mean I guess kind of a beating I mean he was definitely getting dominated the whole time, not really a beating, I guess, but getting dominated the whole time and never gave up on himself for a single second. So, you know, I think it was even like 30 seconds left and he went for, you know, and the referee gave him a couple chances, you know, which I wasn't so much a big fan of. But, you know, you just got to give credit where credit is due, right? The guy he went for it. He gave it all that he had. his coach needs to step back and look at that

and then say what do we need to do to fix this to get better not be like why are you giving the energy to the other guy your energy is now focused on what Hamzad did rather than what you guys did wrong yeah I just I disagree like after the fact because like before the fight you know DDP said everything right like you take me down I'm gonna get up now that's easier said than done when you get in there with a guy like Hamzot you can't totally know

you can work with wrestlers all day doesn't mean you're gonna know exactly what it's going to feel like until you're in the fight. But to afterwards, to afterwards make that criticism, but I call it blanket MMA. I mean, to me, that just seems like sour grapes. And I agree. It's probably just too soon after the fight, upset, angry about the result, you know, whatever. And I get it.

Like, I fought Johnny Hendricks, and he did the same thing, right? Like, I fought Damien Maya. He did the same thing, you know, and they turned into a very boring fight. And it's definitely, that's why I say I think it's probably just too soon after. Like, the next day you're like, man, fuck this guy. Why did he fight me? He just wouldn't fight me, right? And it's just frustration.

The coach should be more level-headed than that, I think. And, you know, they should look realistically at what you got to do to fix it. And that's what you should be talking about. What does my fighter need to do to get better and improve to this doesn't happen again? Not what the other guy did. Like, you should give no energy at all, in my opinion, to what the other fighter did. Yeah. It's weird because when you see a fight play out like that, like you can never say never.

I want to be clear about that. You never say never about what can happen in the future of the sport. We've seen this a thousand times. But the way that fight played out, you know, Wesley Homslock caught him in the first round and finished him. And, you know, you can say, man, he's just like, I always remember not taking anything away from him, but I always remember Junior Dos Santos catching Kane Velasquez in that first fight.

And it was like, wow, but then they fought two more times. And it was just like, Kane just absolutely overwhelmed at both times. Like, it was like, okay, I learned from my mistake. And now I'm just going to go out there and beat the ever-loving shit out of you for 25 minutes. and he did it two times in a row to the point where it got uncomfortable watching Junior Dos Santos take punches. This wasn't that where he got caught. You know, like,

like, like I'm not saying Drichus could, couldn't potentially get back there and do different in another fight because every fight is different. But the way that played out, like I don't know that we'd ever see that again. Like, Drichikas would have to go on a pretty impressive run to get back there because that wasn't, you can call it boring.

Okay, call it boring, but it wasn't, it wasn't close. like outside of that fifth round where he and as you said credit to DDP for still sticking around there and trying he never really had Homzot in any danger he just

you know he scrambled for me and had it had him mounted for like two seconds had his back for two seconds and it was you know pretty much he still lost the round like he won the round he lost the round so like for me it's like if you're going to get back there it's going to take some work like that was such a lopside of fight that like I don't care that you were a three time defending

champion you're going to have to do some serious work to get back there and I think he's capable of it when you look at the division but like in my opinion like you you're really going to have to do something to get back there because that wasn't a close fight call it what you want call it boring it wasn't close yeah and matchup wise he you know he matches up better with the rest of the division right so the chances of him getting back there i don't think uh totally unlikely because he matches up well with the majority of the division to be able to get back there it's just a matter of okay once you get back there what are you going to do the same thing again because you know and

And again, and that's where I talk about, like, his coach's talking to the way that he's talking. If his energy is into what Hamzat did and going to criticize him, that's not going to get him to beat Hamzot a second time, right? So, you know, he's going to have to work on his wrestling, obviously. And, you know, and to get to the level of a Hamzat wrestling, that's a tough nut to crack, man. You know, that's a, he's a high, freaking level wrestler, man. Yeah, it's funny. I know after the fight, like I've seen a lot of people who are criticized and saying it was boring.

No one wants to watch that blowout, you know, so on and so forth. I know Demetrius Johnson said, if you don't like that, don't watch UFC. Like, that's part of UFC. Wrestling is part of UFC. I think when you're in the arena, and I've said this for years, if you pay $800 for a ticket or whatever remarkable, ridiculous price you're paying for tickets these days, you can boo, you can cheer. I don't care.

Like, you've earned that right when you pay for that ticket. I don't, you know, I hate when they, like, get critical. the crowd because they're booing. I'm like, dude, they just paid $800. They can boo whoever the hell they want. They want to chant USA during a fight between a South African and a Chechen, go for it. But like, the idea that like, you're allowed to, like, you're allowed to, like, you're allowed to say it wasn't the most exciting fight, but still credit Hamza for being completely dominant. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I'm not saying it was the most exciting fight. It wasn't. I'm not going to, like, it's not a fight. I'm looking to rush back and rewatch. But, like, it was

a 5044, 5043 decision. Like, that's about as dominant as you can get without a finish. And as we both said, like, that's probably the biggest criticism. He was, like, as dominant as he was. He probably could have taken a few more chances. But, I mean, call it boring. That's fine. Boring.

But, you know, guess what? He's a boring middleweight champion now. Yeah. I mean, it was boring. The fact, GSP's fights had a lot of boring fights. But we don't really talk about how boring GSP what was. We talk about how dominant he was.

you know that's the game that we're playing so you know you can't take anything away from homzop for what he did um i think it's cool watching him develop because um you know i think we see a lot these wrestlers coming to me i guess i think of erin pico might be an example we talk about here where they kind of think that they're a striker now and peter is a hell of good striker too so i shouldn't really know he's probably not the best use case here example but um you know we see wrestlers think that they're strikers i think hamzah kind of went through that phase a little bit with uh uh burns and usman and then he was like wait a minute like i'm like the best wrestler here like what am i doing right and and got back to it and and he got a championship out of it so but i think it's cool watching him

develop because you know we've seen it's striking we've seen that that that's where he is the weakest is not like he's weak there like he's still very strong there but that's certainly his weak point So like until someone solves his wrestling puzzle, I'm not sure how you're going to beat him. And then and then, but then you do still have to deal with his striking. So, and I thought even, you know, he didn't throw a lot of strikes on the feet, but he had like some good jabs and, you know,

set his takedowns up much better than he has in the past. Like he didn't just shoot from across the cage like he did on Whitaker. He kind of made DDP want to strike at him a little bit. So I thought, you know, we've seen some improvements there in Hamzaa. And when I talk about his development, it's like he's still developing and he just won the title. Right. Like against a, you know, a not an easy guy. So you beat Robert Whitaker on the way, right?

I mean, and I feel like we're still seeing him develop. So I think it's pretty fascinating to watch. And it's going to be a tough, tough nut to crack in the future. I like the GSP comparison because GSP got criticized a ton during his career. He went for takedowns, wasn't super exciting. After he lost to Matt Sary, became a heavy wrestler, whatever. But guess what? When it's all said done, he's a Hall of Famer, nine-time defending champion,

greatest welterweight of all time. That's what we remember. Was he the most exciting guy in the world that he put on, you know, Robbie Lawler, Carlos Conner, Robbie Loller, Matt Brown. Did he put on those kind of fights? No, that just wasn't George St. Pierre. But how do we remember him as one of the three greatest fighters ever at worst? You know what I mean?

So like if Hamzaq can go on that kind of streak, I don't think we're going to remember him. It was like, oh, he only wrestled. Well, he wrestled and defended the title nine times or whatever ridiculous number it is. That's what that's what we'll remember in the long run. That's what we always remember, right? Like John's had boring fights. GSP's had boring fights. Hughes had boring fights.

I mean, the majority of champions do have boring fights. You know, it's just part of the game. You know, you can't expect to just have exciting fights every time and be a long-time champion. and I mean, it's not a good strategy for competing. So especially like when you have the option of taking guys down, like you said, this isn't glory. This isn't Rajah Madan. This isn't this isn't Lumpini Stadium.

Like you have the option to take a guy down, control him, put him on his back, and not allow him to put you at risk. I'm not trying to make the guy catch a stray, but I think if you're going to criticize a guy like that, like Justin Gachie. Like, Justin Gagey has wrestling. He likes being exciting. He likes knocking guys out.

That's awesome. I love Justin Gage. One of the greatest, one of the most exciting fighters ever. But he's dedicated himself to a style to where he takes a lot more risks, where he can get caught by a Max Holloway. He can't get caught by Dustin Porey. You know, maybe if he just wrestled, he'd be a totally different fighter. Now, maybe he wouldn't have the career he's had.

He wouldn't be nearly as famous or as successful in terms of like being popular. But you choose your style. And, you know, could Hamza? Could Homzot have potentially gone out there and knocked out DDP? Sure, he's a good headkick in that fight too, where, like, it is hard. I heard it bounce. I heard it hard. But what's the path to least resistance?

Well, clearly, DDP couldn't hand him with him on the ground, couldn't stop his wrestling. Why would you go away from that? I'd be like George St. Pierre going out there and out wrestling, I don't know, like Johnny Hendricks. He didn't do that. But I'm saying, outrestling Johnny Hendricks in the fifth round. He's like, you know what? I'm just going to stand up for the hell of it. Like, why would you do that?

You know what I mean? So, Matt, let me. you know, a good analogy of the type of fight that's going to have to happen for Hamza, right? Like someone's going to have to give him a hard time, take him down where he is forced to stand. And then it's going to be a close fight on the feet because I don't think Hamzaa's going to be an easy guy to beat on the feet either. So that's why I'll continually talk about, you know, as boring as this fight was, which it was boring, I totally fully admit that. But as boring as it was, like watching his progression, like the, you know, his ceiling is absolutely. you know up to the stars you know so you know it's very cool to watch him progress and he's not

going to lose that wrestling you know i'm sure that's who he's always going to be but you know if if at some point you know he comes across like a yore merri type and he's forced to stay on the feet like i think it's going to be exciting to watch and see how that plays out so let me ask this question matt because where we're at right now homzot is the champion and i think there's about four potential viable contenders right now in terms of title shots. You got Rainier de Ritter, who was there on Saturday night. I admit, I just talked to Rainer about two hours ago. He's very excited.

He really wants that fight, and he's willing to fight as early as Abu Dhabi, October. He's like, give me that fight. Send me the contract. I'll take it right now. There's Cairo Borhalio and Nasradi and Imov. They're fighting in September. The winner of that fight, obviously Emavov had to knock out of Rada Sania. I think he's probably a little further ahead than Borhalio, just based on

resume, especially with the Adasanya win. And then you got Fluffy Hernandez who had an incredible performance lopsided win over Roman Delizze. When you look at those guys, now, Kayo and Imavov are a little different because they're about to fight each other, so it's hard to say like because you've got to wait for that fight to happen. But looking at the current crop of guys, kind of like a two-part question about, who do you think should get it and who actually presents the biggest obstacle to Hamzaa based on that

list right there? Because I think Imovov, like Mimov beats Kio. He deserves it. But he's a striker primarily. Like, I don't know that I love his chances of not just going out there and getting done to him what Hamzot did to Whitaker and DDP. Not saying he doesn't deserve him, just saying, like, I don't know that it would be that compelling of a fight. So, in your opinion, Matt, kind of that two-part question, who should get it and who actually stands the best chance of actually giving Hamzot a fight? Well, I think you're spot on with if Imov wins.

I mean, I think it's a shoe in, right? I mean, he's got to get that fight. And that's probably what Hamza's rooting for, right? He's like, cool, I get to wrestle another night to go out and grapple a guy for a couple of a few minutes. But I think the one that, you know, I haven't watched Hernandez enough to say so much about him, but I would definitely certainly be excited to watch RDR fight him.

I think that would be a very interesting fight. You know, RDR is just so well-rounded, so good everywhere. and, you know, we seem we just did to Bo Nickel, another great wrestler. So it's like, you know, he has the experience. You know, he's confident. I seen him there at the fight, and he told me he's going to submit Hamzad. I was like, oh, that's an interesting call out, you know. He seems to me like the most interesting matchup.

But to say he deserves it, you know, from beating Boe Nickel. I think that's a stretch, right? Especially if in a Bobbett. Robert Whitaker, he beat Robert Whitaker, too. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true, yeah. Yeah, I forgot about that. See, I always free you. That's why we got you, bro.

I always forget this stuff. I think, because it's hard. And listen, I admit, I'm being slightly biased because I think he should get it as well. But I just talked to RDR about this as well. One thing I brought up to him and he knows this, he trains with Gilbert Burns and Kamar Usman. Those are two of his training partners down at Kilcliffe. Who are the two guys who have given Hamzod the biggest problems in the UFC? Gilbert Burns and Kumar Usman.

I'm not saying they're the same fighters, but having that advice. And when you look at RDR's style, like he's a grappling heavy guy with very improved stand-up. Like, he hurt Whitaker on the feet. He didn't finish him on the feet. He hurt him on the feet. He finished Bo Nicol with the knee to the body. And he countered Bo in the ground. Like, he actually got on top of Bo Nicol in wrestling.

Now, in a pure wrestling match, I think Bo Nickle probably beats Hamzot. Just pure wrestling. Like, no strike training. Bo Nichols. Bo Nichol is like, he was one match away from going the Olympics. I don't think Homzot was ever quite to that level. And just pure wrestling, I'm talking about. I just think he presents the most interesting challenge because,

A, I think he's got better wrestling than, you know, the vast majority of the guys, but also, like, he's such a good jiu-jitsu guy. Like, he's not afraid to go to the ground. Like, I think DDP's entire course of action in that fight was just don't, don't give up damage on the ground and just try to survive, as you said, like, if you're going to be critical of DDP, it said he didn't do more to get out of there. I think RDR is, like, give me the triangle, give me chances to get my

my submissions. Give me a chance to reverse you with a Kumar or whatever. Like he's just got world class grappling and I think it would be interesting in terms like his style. I just think it's, I'm not saying he'd win. I'm certainly not saying RDR would win, but I think in terms like who presents the most interesting challenge, I think it's RDR.

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I keep going back to the Bo Nickel versus Hamzah grappling wrestling match. I would actually like to see it. That'd be a really cool thing for the UFC to just put out there. But I Let's see who's actually better here.

Because you know, you kind of lean towards Bo Nickel just because, I mean, he has probably more experience. But I'm not sure I was just looking up Hamzat's stats in wrestling. I mean, you know, Swedish national champion. I don't know what that really means. Probably not a ton, three times. But he's got some international experience. So I think, you know, for one, it would depend if it's a freestyle or a collegiate match, which I would give Bo a collegiate match all day.

You know, he's a ridiculously good writer and, you know, good at getting out from bottom, Scramble and everything. But freestyle, I'd be real interested to see that now. But, you know, and I'm getting off on a tangent here. I'm about to lose our entire listening audience from Sweden. But Swedish National Champion of Wrestling is basically like saying first round by for a wrestling tournament for like a real good wrestler. Yeah, yeah.

It's definitely nothing. He's definitely nothing to, you're not going to be. going to brag about that on your resume a whole lot. But, you know, there's like D3 guys that beat national champions, you know, there's guys, you know, who didn't even go to college and become, you know, a medalist in the Olympics. So, you know, I don't, I guess we don't really know how good of a wrestler homicide is. And that's kind of what fascinates me about it. If we could put them together, like, let's just see how good you actually are, you know? I know. He did, he did the thing against Jack Hermanson. I don't know, you know, I don't really know how good

Jack is. I think he's a Greco guy. Yeah, he is. He's more of a Greco judo guy, I think. Yeah, more than that. Well, whatever. It doesn't really matter. Yeah, RDR, we all know that that's the matchup that we want to see, whether it's right now or in the future. Because I think we got to, im of Av is probably, you know, I'm picking him to be Kyle. Who knows, right? Cairo's solid, you know, he's a good fighter. but I think we kind of know how that's going to play out, right? It's weird to say, like, I'm with you.

I think M-Av-V-Ov-W-W wins, but I'm like, who do I give a better chance of beating Homsom? I'm not saying anyone's going to be Homsop, by the way. Hamzot's a monster. I don't know if anyone's going to beat him right now. I'm picking any of these guys to beat him. Yeah, but if you're giving me, like, who's got the best percentage chance of pulling it off,

I would 1,000% give RDR a better chance than M-Avob, just based on styles, because I think M-Avob would be, he'd be in the same situation as as dDP as otisanya as whittaker guys who just they get taken down and mauled by a guy like that on the ground i'm not saying they don't have good ground games you could have a good ground game but there's a difference between good ground game and world-class ground game and that's what homzat's got yeah that's exactly right and and and homzat's ruthless about it too relentless about it you know and and and like i said his striking is getting better too i mean i think we've seen improvements in it and um yeah so the middleweight division

has some interest now, right? Not that it hasn't recently, but I think it's got some real interest, right? You know, Hamzaa could do some big things here. And, you know, kind of when I knew that when I felt very strongly that he was going to win was when he weighed in at 184, I think. Yeah, when he weighed in under. Because he's like, yeah, he's had problems with weight for a long time. I was like, oh, he took this serious and he trained hard and he focused on some cardio for this fight. That's why he came in under, my guess. And it looked like it showed, right? He didn't look like he gassed at all.

So, you know, a healthy, hardworking Hamzot, that's a, boy, that's going to be a tough, tough matchup for everybody. And I know that I know he said, and I agree with you, like I don't think the EOC is openly rooting for anybody. And I think Dracus was a great champion. But Hamzot's a superstar. And that, that matters. Like, you know, like that guy sells tickets.

I mean, we heard the reaction to the press conference like, oh, my God. Like, you would have thought he was from Chicago the way people were rooting for him there. Like, he had a massive fan base. And I can tell you from like just in terms of our coverage, like, oh, my God, Hamzot killed it. So, you know, I'lliot Toporia, Hamzot, like, they got a couple guys as champions. Now everyone's like, oh, the star power, it's gone. Connor's not around John Jones. Ilya and Hamzot, two guys, I guarantee you're going to sell some tickets.

Yeah, they just got to keep waiting, right? That's the thing, especially I mean, I think, because Hamzot's, out style as much as he's going to sell tickets, he's going to be a star, maybe, but he kind of like has to keep winning, right? Like, because that wrestling style, like, if he loses, like, it's going to be a bad look

for him, I think, right? With I mean, he's an exciting fighter, too. Like, we love watching him fighting. He's knocking people out. You know, he's got the look. He's got the demeanor. He's got the personality. He just has all the boxes checked. Ilya is kind of what we always want it

Connor to be like stay focused and just be a total badass and not get distracted by everything outside the cage and he's a star I think Ilya is that dude like Ilya's got that Connor swag about him but he's not I assume he's probably not

you know bumping rails on the weekends like Connor was so I think I think I think I think he's got a better chance that um Welcome aboard Air Canada Rocky's vacation here we come Whoa is this economy

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Yep, it's the most powerful iPhone ever, plus more peace of mind with your bill over five years. This is big. Get the new iPhone 17 Pro at tellus.com slash iPhone 17 Pro on select plans. Conditions and exclusions apply. Real quick, where we get out here, Matt, I got to ask you because, of course, there was other fights on the card. And, of course, we saw we both picked, to our discredit, I guess. Aaron Pico did not get the job done. And he went out there and started great, man, had some nasty body shots, had some good moments.

But I think the book on Aaron Pico is if you can get him over aggressive, you can make him pay because his defense just isn't amazing. That's been the moniker that's caught him in a couple of his losses. He gets a little overaggressive and gets caught. And Lorone Murphy, we've done this. We've talked about this. After his last one, no one has been more critical of Lorone Murphy than the guy sitting in this chair right here. I said, after he beat Josh Schmidt, I said he beat Josh Schmidt. I don't remember a single thing from that fight.

And to this day, I couldn't tell you a single moment that stood out for that fight. He won, but I have no memory of him. Like, did he out jab him? Did he out? No, I have no memory. He didn't do anything that made stood out to me. He went out there and did a spinning back elbow knockout and just absolutely deaded Aaron Pico bad to the point where I'm like, man, do they need like paramedics in the cage?

Like, what's going on here? And now it seems like Lerow Murphy is going to get a title shot and I think he deserves it. I mean, now I'm on the train there. Like, I feel bad for Moussa. That poor guy, like, he's probably the most deserving guy, but he's not going to get it now. But how impressed for you with Lorimer Murphy and how tough of a loss is that for Aaron Pico? Because now that's three in a row now. Pitbull came in and lost.

Patchy Mish came in and lost. And now Aaron Pico came in. And that was a bad knockout, man. That was a bad knockout. As bad knockout as it was, Pico looked great. I mean, he looked, everything was on point. He made a mistake, right? Lerom, the smart fighter, patient, capitalized on a good defense, just capitalized on it.

And I thought Pico got a little bit maybe overconfident. And I think it's just as you still shining through, you know. I know he's got a lot of fights now, but, you know, he kind of tried a little footwork trick thing. And it was really like, all you had to do was punch his face. You know what I mean? Like you didn't really have to do all that. And, you know, a lot of times I'm very critical, you know, fighters and gym, like, overusing their footwork. and I thought that was kind of what Pico did there.

But regardless, you know, I think Pico's still going to be a champion. You know, I think his youth got to him a little bit, his over-anxiousness, you know, maybe being under the UFC lights and everything, you know, with all the hype behind them and being co-main event as his first UFC fight, you know, I think maybe all just fired him up a little bit too much. And, you know, because he came out of the, he came out when the bell rang. I mean, he came out guns of blazing. I mean, he was firing hard shots straight from the beginning

and seemed like everything was going his way. Again, I think Pico's still has a championship everything. He's going to have to deal with these bumps in the road, learn from him, and keep getting better. And I think he'll be back and I still, I'm picking him to be champion at some point. I still think he's got that in him. I just, I think that the one, and this has been his lot in life since day one, is he just gets a little overaggressive.

And he's kind of, he's paid for. defensively he just pays for it I think that's what happened because Lorone Murphy is not known as a as a big finisher like that was our biggest criticism of him he's like six-fight win streak and they're all decisions and none of them really stood out like they weren't like oh man what a performance like you know Hamzot decision was vastly different than like said Lorraine Murphy's decisions and for him to get that spinning back elbow out of nowhere that speaks I mean that's credit to Lauren Murphy but it's also you know

little you have to give you have to the position that the situation was presented because Aaron Pico was just in kill mode and Lorone was able to counter him perfectly and it was a great counter. But I'm with you. I think Aaron Pico has every tool in the world to become a champion. He's just got to find a way in those right moments to put it all together because he just had a couple of hiccups there where he does things like what happened on Saturday night where he was in there.

And he had a body shot that I thought he just killed Lorone Murphy's ribs. I mean, he just, he was nasty. But one second out of position, one second get too aggressive and he got caught with that spinning back elbow. and it's over, and that's the nature of this beast. We always talk about that. Yeah, and, you know, Ben Ascgrin had a great breakdown. I don't know if you've seen that little video he did from his backyard.

You know, looking better, by the way, Ben Ascreen. So, you know, that was cool. And then doing some commentating on some fights. I think it's a pretty cool thing, you know. He's not like he's in good spirits. Well, anyway, you know, what he talked about was that danger line. You got to go right to that danger line, not cross the danger line. There's something he preaches to his wrestlers.

and I thought that was a great thing that he talked about that I'm going to use for my own fighters. And I thought it was very, very well broken down. And Pico just hasn't figured out what his danger line is, I guess. You know, he kind of crosses over it a little bit. And look, you got to give credit to Lerone Murphy too. Like, I'm not going to say he baited him in. Like, I don't think he was necessarily like, all right, come on, Pico.

Give me some more, you know, like kind of trapping him or whatever. but you got to give him credit for finally, you know, downloading all the data and seeing what was available and figuring out a way to put it in there. And, I mean, he did a great job of it. So, again, Pico's going to be a champion. You know, I think he's just got to figure out himself a little bit more in the cage,

figure out the danger line that I was going to talk about. You know, this kid's going to be smashing people. You know, I think nine out of ten times, I think he beats Libro and Murphy. It was just wasn't his night. And, you know, that's the, like you said, that's the nature of this beast, man. It's a game we play. And Lorone Murphy, man, credit to him.

He got the job done. Like I said, I said, I've said that many times. Like, I just think the guy, I just thought he never took enough chances and fights, never did anything that stood out to me. And I, you know, six-fight win-streek, seven-fight win-strict, whatever it was. I was like, great. But I've seen nothing that makes me really get excited to watch you again. Like, I just didn't.

Like, I'm sorry. Saturday night change that. I know he has that in him. Now, you're not going to be able to do that every fight, or if you just suddenly start doing that every fight, you're probably going to get caught because that's what happens when guys, like you know the wrestlers who suddenly think they're strikers. But I think Lorone Murphy proved that he's got that in him,

and when a guy came after him, he showed he has the ability to put him out of there, and he did, he put Aaron Pico down and out. And Bolkanowski already said December, let's go. I mean, I think that's the fight to make, right? Like, Lerone has that knockout now. like he has a statement win that unfortunately Mozart doesn't have I think it's going to be Lauren Murphy and

Alexander Volcanowski I think you've got to capitalize on that fight now yeah that's interesting to me I wouldn't think that a lot of guys I mean Volcanowski is a warrior to fight anybody but I just wouldn't think that a lot of guys would be itching to fight him right because if you look at his history like he's either going to

even if you beat him like he's probably going to be a boring fight or he's going to find that big knockout like he did last weekend right? but the all likelihood like it's not going to be an exciting fight and you're going to have to be you know kind of playing this puzzle with him the whole time trying to get through to something and he's going to be moving away from you and he's going to be making it boring and vulcanowski I think it's a fight to make right when you look at rankings and you know win streaks and you know where volk is and where leerone is it makes perfect sense but it's like like if I was

Volk like I would not be itching for that fight No, I agree. I agree. And the other thing is, and I said this, I said this, an article we wrote, like, Lerone has got that kind of style where he can frustrate you and win a 48, 47 decision. And Volk's not getting any younger. I mean, let's be honest, he's past 35, you know, he beat Diego Lopez, super impressive there. But, you know, age does not typically make fighters better when you get past, like, a certain age. And so I think Laura Murphy deserves it. I think he should get it. And I think there's a real world where he wins it. I may not. be the most exciting fight. And it may not, he may not have another spinning back elbow knockout

ever again. This may be the one moment we stand up and say, man, what a knockout. But he did it and he deserves it. And I feel for Moussar, man, that poor guy, like he deserves it. He probably should have gotten already, but he's not. And unfortunately, he missed out on the Pico fight. Like, maybe he would have gone out there and beat Pico because Pico's so aggressive. Maybe he would have had that opportunity to score a signature win, but he didn't. And now Moversar is kind of like the poor guy looking on the outside looking in because I think we all know it should probably be Laroni and Volk and then Moser's going to have to fight somebody else. Absolutely. Yeah. And to top off the night, I mean, you can't go without giving a little bit of

praise to Carlos Prattis too, right? I mean, I didn't watch all the prelims, but, you know, there wasn't like a ton of hype in the crowd. But when Prattis did that, I mean, woke everybody up. And he did it to Jeff Neal, too, who is in my mind, like one of the most durable guys out there in the division, maybe in the UFC period. I mean, I don't think he's ever been knocked out before that. I don't even know if he's been knocked down before that. You know, the guy is just an absolute unit in there, just, you know, stand strong and is hard to deal with.

And I was very, very impressed by process. I've been big on him for a long time. I've always thought that he's got some weaknesses that, you know, probably going to get exploited at some point. But he looked fantastic. and fought intelligently. And, you know, Jeff Neville was having a success, too. You know, it was not like a, it wasn't Lerone Murphy versus Aaron Pico, you know,

and it wasn't the other way around either, right? So, you know, for him to find that knockout with his second left, I mean, what a tremendous knockout. So I saw this thing on Twitter today. I'll mention this where we get out of here. Someone said, is Carlos Prattis already to the heart of sitting well to it in history? And our guy, Lou Thomas, responded and put a, photo of Johnny Henders because at his peak,

Johnny Hendricks could touch you and put you down and out. I'm biased. I think the hardest-sitting welterweight was a tie between Robbie Lawler and my wonderful co-host, Matt Brown, the hardest hitting welterweights of all time. You had the most knockouts in welterweight history. Where's the respect, man? Come on.

I'm not disrespect in Carlos protest. Carlos is incredible, but like they're like, he's already the hardest-stitting welterweight. Let's slow down a little bit on this one. Come on now. No, I mean, I will go out right now. I was not the hardest hitting heavyweight and I'm not the hardest hitting heavyweight at all. But, you know, my style made for knockouts, you know, it wasn't because, but it wasn't because

I was the hardest hitting. Lawler hits harder than me. I can promise you that. I felt his punches a few times and I was like, holy shit. Like this guy punches fucking hard. And I would have to say it would be Robbie Lawler. You know, having felt a lot of welterweight punches in my career. I've never been hit the way Lawler hit. You know, and I don't think he caught me with any shots that were, you know, where he put his body into it. Like, he made me with his arms, arm punches. I thought, holy shit. Like, this guy hits way too. I do not want to get hit by one of those hard ones. So, yeah, I'll go ahead and put that down right now. Prosses, it's hard to consider him the hardest hitting. You know, he's more like me, you know, I think where like, you know,

little by little taken away from you and then we're going to find the big shot you know like you don't have to hit a guy that hard to knock him out you know if you hit him clean and you know with the right like there's enough power that's enough power you know and and prodis i mean through a fucking spitting elbow you know it wasn't even a punch anyway so it's about hardest hitting um but yeah anyway i think i think i think it comes down to dynamic knockouts like i think you had When you knocked out, when you've deaded Diego Sanchez with elbow, you know what I mean? Like get elbow knockouts, like things like that, knees. You had more dynamic knockouts where it wasn't just about punches.

You had punches, of course, too, knockouts. But like, protest reminds me more of your style where, like, you could get an elbow. You could catch a knee. Just plain punching power, I think Loller, like, that dude had the death touch. With one punch, you could put you down it out and just absolutely murder you at one punch. Johnny Hendricks hit hard, too, but I know, I know when you fought John. it was mostly just him wrestling you, but, like, Lawler, like, Lawler was one of those guys. Like, you did not want to get hit full force by one of his punches because that dude would just,

like, crumble your... I got hit by both of them. Lawler hit harder. I can tell you that much, you know, and it was cool. I met process after the fight, I took a picture of my kids and stuff. Great guy. But I felt like, I mean, I don't think he speaks much English. We didn't really like talk a whole lot, but the way that our vibe...

felt like there was like a mutual respect there you know i mean like like he's kind of the and that's what part of why like i'm a big fan of him i feel like he's almost an extension of my style like kind of a uh the next guy of that style i hope that his smoking and drinking doesn't become the end of him you know like it is not an intelligent thing to do it is there is no possible way that you're maximizing yourself when you're doing that and you might do great things still i don't know but there's just no possible way that you are maximizing your ROIs on that. And I hope that's not the death of them. But regardless, I love his style.

I love watching him. I'm going to cheer for that guy because he reminds me a lot of myself. And I hope he does big things, man. But he's not the hardest hit. And I don't think. That's why I think stylistically, like you and him share a lot of similar traits in terms like doing damage from a lot of different body parts, the art of eight limbs, if you will,

the Muay Thai style, like where you can do damage with elbows, knees, punches. Straight up punching, I'll give credit to the lawler. Like I said, I love Johnny Hedders. Johnny Hedders hit hard, but no one hit, like, Robbie Loller. So we're going to get out of here, Matt. Obviously, this weekend we got a car at like freaking 6 a.m. from China, which, you know, it's not the greatest card in the world.

You know, Zhang Ming Yang's fighting. Obviously, after he beat Anthony Smith, that's a good fight, Johnny Walker. Algerian Sterling Brian Ortega's sneaky good fight that's the co-main event So you know it's pretty pretty decent So we got that coming up this weekend So I'm sure well I don't know how Actually it's a Matt Brown card starts at 6 a.m.

That's about right when you're getting up Whereas I'm like going to bed So that's a much more friendly time for you But as always me I want to give you a chance To give people a shout out where you want people to check out I saw you got a new a new A new seminar you're doing in October I saw posted So always busy so where can people check out

They want to see what you got going on And I mean, we're on Instagram and Twitter. Of course, you check me out for different seminars. I'm doing them all over the country all the time. Love doing them. So anybody listen and wants to book, hit me up or hit up your coach and tell them to hit me up or your gym or whatever. Tell them to hit me up. But I also have to announce my latest little business of the creatine company, Bidefuel.

I'm working with some guys on. You know, anybody that's not taking creatine. I think you're just making a huge mistake there. There's enough research out there. now it's not a question whether it's safe or whether it's good for you. It's great for your brain, great for your muscles. So get you some damn creatine, vitifuel. I think you said on the show many times,

if all the supplements you could take or should take, creatine is the one that everybody should take. Absolutely. I mean, it's a no-brainer. So much research. It's by far the most research supplement in history. And we know the benefits. Like the only reason not to take is if you're cutting weight.

That's literally the only reason you shouldn't take it. Whether you're male, female, I give it to my kids. You know, I think everybody should be taking it. 100%. Well, there you go. Well, we always appreciate everyone tuning in. Obviously, we'll be back next. We've got another new episode to talk about everything else that's going on.

The fallout from this, maybe by the time we talk next week, we'll be talking about RDR versus Hamza. Maybe they make that fight. They pull the trigger and do it right away. You never know. As always, I want to say big thank you to everyone that tunes in the show. Make sure you check us out on all your favorite podcast platforms, Apple Podcasts, Spotify. of course over the best website in the world, MMAfighting.com. For Matt Brown, I'm Damon Martin.

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