MMA Fighting - Fighter vs. Writer: Matt Brown Criticizes Calls for an Interim Welterweight Title, Reacts to Potential Shavkat Rakhmonov vs. Kamaru Usman Fight

Episode Date: November 5, 2024

On the latest episode of The Fighter vs. The Writer, Matt Brown and Damon Martin debate whether or not a potential fight between Shavkat Rakhmonov and Kamaru Usman should be for an interim title plus we discuss if Jon Jones' legacy takes a hit if he beats Stipe Miocic but then retires before facing Tom Aspinall plus much more  Subscribe to MMA Fighting Check out our full video catalog Like MMA Fighting on Facebook Follow on Twitter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. Back to the Fighter versus the writer. I am Damon Martin. He is UFC legend Matt Brown. And Matt, we are officially two weeks away, less than two weeks away, from the massive UFC event in Madison Square Garden, John Jones, Stevie Miochich. Also, we do have another, I feel terrible when I say this.

There's an apex event this coming weekend with Carlos Pretace and your guy, Neil Magny. You know, I love Neil. Neil's your guy. I love Neil. not maybe the greatest main event in the world, but it's happening next weekend, but obviously I think we're all kind of already tuning towards November 16th, you know?

I mean, when's John Jones-Stepe, how do you not get excited? I went to Cleveland and visited with Steve-by a couple days ago. So, like, I'm not trying to disrespect them, but let's be honest, we're all kind of looking forward to that one already. To be fair, I didn't even know that fight was happening. And I was in, yeah, it's actually a pretty solid fight,

Carlos Prattis and Neil Magnet. It's not a bad fight. No, it's not. It's not. I just, I mean, listen, the UFC's printing money right now.

I don't know if you saw over the weekend at UFC Edmonton. Like, it wasn't the greatest card and it didn't play out. Like the greatest card, a lot of decisions. And I love Amir Albaughy and Brandon Moreno, but not the biggest names for Edmonton. Like,

that's kind of a weird one. Sold it out, biggest gate in history. Like, dude, USC's just printing money right now. Like, they're not stressing about doing Carlos Prentes and Neil Magnet at the April.

They're like, oh, yeah, we'll just, you know, whatever. We'll throw this one together. And next week we'll go to some random town and make $2 billion on a gate. So, yeah, they're just printing money right now. You can't hate on them for that, right? They're doing all the right things. And they got John and Steepa coming up, man. Like, why would they worry about anything else?

They know that's going to be gigantic. And we all cannot wait to watch that shit. Have you been to, have you been to any of the Madison Square Garden Guards? I have not. And I actually asked for tickets for this one and they haven't got back to me, which is usually a good sign because, you know, they're usually, I know if I'm not going to get them, it's usually a pretty quick answer. But I still, unfortunately, won't get to go because I'm going to Thailand and you got to make the choices sometimes, right? Yeah, that's the one where they feel like they got a lot. I mean, if you could go, they should go because you're an Ohio guy.

You're a steep guy. Come on now. Yeah. I agree. Call Dana and tell them. I know, right? I know. So, yeah, it was good. Like I said, I got to visit with Steve A for a little bit. Yeah, they hadn't seen Steve A in a while.

And also got to see the new Strong Style. They opened the new Strong Style where Steve A trains in Cleveland, gorgeous facility, massive. I've been to the old one numerous times, but this new one was huge, really, really nice place. But Steve A little good. How long they've been building that? It's been like three or four years now.

Yeah, when I asked Steve it, how long this went open, he said, just a couple weeks. So it just opened like two weeks ago, I think he said. So it's gorgeous. It's like a three-story building. And I mean, it looks like an almost like an office building from the outside. Like that's how big it is. Like it's got like the big glass windows and everything.

And yeah, it's a huge place and really, really nice. Like I've been to like I went to the Cleveland Browns training facility years ago with the UFC. They did like they were doing like a tour for the 20th anniversary thing. And I went up there. And even though I'm a Bengals fan, I went. and the facility was gorgeous. It was amazing facility. Really, really, like, nice facility.

And it was so funny. My favorite story from that entire trip, it was hurting me to be there as a Bengals fan, to be inside the Browns facility. It was hurting me. And at the end of the day, whoever the Browns were that were there with us, were like, hey, did you want to take a photo

with us in front of the Brown's logo? And I was like, no, I'm good. And they're like, oh, come on, take a photo. I was like, I'm a Bengals fan, so I'm going to pass. And they're like, I understand. I was like, I'm not taking photos. with the Browns. I'm not

turn code on my team. Guys in your football loyalty. They were cool, but they were laughing. They're like, no, I understand. I tell you understand. Well, they're doing pretty good this year, right? No, they're not at all.

They're terrible this year. The Browns are terrible this year, so. All right. The Eagles are doing good. They're four and five. They're not great, but they won today. They kicked the crap out of the Raiders, so that was fun to watch, so.

Yeah, well, I don't know shit about football. We're going to long can of worms here. Yeah, we're going to do our big UFC 309 predictions next week and break down John and Steepa and probably talk a lot about, you know, Michael Chandler and Charles Olivera, Boe Nichols coming back on that card against Paul Craig. I talked to Chris Wybin a couple days ago. He's fighting Eric Andrews on that card. So that's a really fun win.

So it's a really enjoyable fight. So we'll do our breakdown of picks next week. But this week, before we get to, I do want to talk about John Jones a little bit later in the show. But I want to start now because the biggest news that came out last week, of course, was Bilal Mohammed has a foot infection. Unfortunately, he's not going to be able to fight Shab Kat Rachmanoff in December. That fight is off.

As of now, there's still no new main event. I know the EEOC is looking for a new main event. If they don't go, it would be Alessandre Pantosha and Kai Asakura, which, let's be honest, that is not going to sell a pay-per-view. So they need something on there. We've already learned that Alex Prair has taken his name out of the running. His hand is still hurt from the Kolo Roundstreet fight, so he can't step in and save the day.

Yeah, yet again. So I think the story going around, I think we all expect to happen is Shavkat to stay on the card against somebody else. And it looks like, by all account, now they announced Ian Gary against Joaquin Buckley in December, which is a great fight. I think all signs are pointing towards Shavkat versus Kamar Usman. But the question is,

And I know Bilau's already reacted to this is should there be an interim title. And Bilau was like, I'm out for six weeks, not six months. Like, let's slow down on this interim title talk. We've had similar discussions to this before, Matt. I think you know my feelings. I hate interim titles, especially when they don't make any sense. So if Below's out and he's not going to fight December, which we know he is, should the UFC even entertain an interim title with Kamaro and Shavkat?

Yeah, you know, it seems like they usually do that because they need to sell the pay-per-view and put a title on it, right? But like, I feel like Usman would be selling pay-per-views. I mean, we all know who Usman is. We all want to watch Usman fight. I don't think putting a title in front of that, you know, in front of that fight really changes the dynamic of that fight. I get why they would do it and I understand the logic behind it and it, you know, maybe makes it a bigger fight. But I don't see why you can't keep it five rounds and just say it's not for the title. And, you know, but it really, it unfortunately kind of diminishes what the interim title is.

And I think this is probably a stronger case for that than we've even seen in the past. And we've had our own qualms with what they've done with these interim titles. But this one's probably got to be one of the worst instances we've seen, right? I mean, the interim title is always supposed to be. originally. It was supposed to be when a champion is injured or can't fight or out of action for a while. Usually it was like a year. And then they would introduce an interim title while they're out to like, you know, kind of keep the division moving. Like what happened with Dominic Cruz and Hain and Borough back in the day. That was like the most famous case. Nobody complained because Dominic ended up being out for like three years. Eventually got stripped.

But, you know, he was out. But lately it has become that. It has just become like we need to sell a card. Like one of the worst ones was Francis beating Steepa in March. He can't turn around and fight by August. So they just crown an interim champion with surreal gone when he fought Derek Lewis because they needed the main event. And then obviously Francis beat, you know, Cyril, you know, several months later. But it just, I don't like, like, the only argument for it that I'm like, sure, give it to them is because like you do get championship pay. Like they do bump their pay for a title fight. So like that, I guess is okay.

but couldn't you do that anyways? Like, why do we need to, I just, like this, Tom Aspinall is a great instance of this, because we talked about this last year, we talked about this a lot. They gave Tom Aspinall an interim title because John was injured. Now, at that time, John had been out for six months.

They just did it because they needed a fight to sell the car. They didn't do it because they wanted to crown an interim champion. It wasn't a John. Now, John ended up being out for more than a year, and, okay, that's fine. But all that's done is create confusion and anger people saying, why is John not fighting Tom Aspinall?

So I just, this instance right here, it belows out for six weeks. And let's just say, okay, he's going to be ready to go again. He's going to be ready to get back into training in December. He'll be ready to fight by March or April. Why are we, I just, I don't get it. I don't get it. Well, like the blessings and the curses of having one company kind of rule everything, right? We talk about like Dana taking over boxing.

And I mean, we know the messes that you have in boxing all the time, but it's like there's sort of the blessing and the curse right because they can just do that it's their company they do it ever fuck they want but you know it is you know in those other cases where the problem is that there's just no set rule set right there's no guidelines like okay if you're out for six months we're doing interim title you know there's no there's nothing like that for the rankings right like the number one guy is going to get the next shot and they try to do it and buy and a lot of it turns into a mess, but it's sort of a blessing and a curse. Because then, you know, we also, like, we would all rather see Steepay and John, I think, than John and Aspinall, even though I know there's a lot of people itching for that fight, but when they originally made it, I think we, you know, that was the fight to make, right? And that's one of the blessings. Like, we probably wouldn't have got that fight in other cases.

So I say this is like a blessing and a curse thing, right? Yeah, it's just, I mean, I get it. And, you know, as long as, because the problem is it just muddies the water unnecessarily. Like, let's say Shabkat fights Usman. And let's say Shabkat wins. Okay, great. Shabkat's still undefeated, he's still getting his title shot. But we know how the sport works.

Weird things happen. Maybe Shabkat wins and he breaks his hand and he's out for six months. Then you got Balasid on the sideline waiting to fight. It just, these things like, I get why you're doing. I get the promotional side of it. You're doing it because you need to sell a card. I understand that part of it. But it also creates so many.

I think it creates more problems than it solves in many situations. And the other problem I have with a mat is that it's just like totally like totally like totally like random when they do it. Like Valentine's. If there was just a set guideline, I think that takes a lot of things. They just said, look, if you're out for six months, like you're getting. we're putting an interim title in there. Yeah. But like, it's just like they had Valentina Shepchenko and Alexa Grasso sitting out for a year to do the ultimate fighter and then going in to do the, they wanted to do the rematch at Noce OFC. I understand that.

That's a, that you want your Mexican champion to fight on the card celebrating Mexican Independence Day. I understand that. But in that year, they didn't even, like, there was no mention of an interim title just because they were, they were on the sideline for a year because the UFC wanted them to wait. But Bilal getting an injury and they need to sell a paper. and they know, like it or not, they know that no one's going to pay $80 to watch the flyweight title fight. They're not going to pay to see Pantosia. That's why in May, when they were scrambling,

when they didn't have a lot of fights after UFC 300, they needed to fill UFC 301 and they ended up booking Jose Aldo coming back. Remember that? Just like a little sly way to get people interested because they knew the flyweight title fight wasn't going to sell. Same thing here. I get it. I just, it's just so annoying.

Like, I just, I don't know, like, I think the UFC had, like, they must have some metric in their, in their research that says people just want to buy a title fight, not a regular fight. Like, now that's why we have the BMF title and all this other bullshit. Like, they just want titles. I guess that must be it. That's got to be it. Yeah, it's got to sell more. Again, that's the blessing in the curse of, like, it being a business and being as a private business, they're out there to try to make money. And, you know, the curse is you get, you got.

do whatever the hell they want, right? Get these, you know, different interim titles and, you know, yeah. I think we all know at least that it's not a title, right? Like, Blow has the fucking title. He'll be back soon. He's going to fight the winner. This is a title contender match. Great.

It's a great fight. I'm stoked to see the fight. Like, I'm just as stoked to see Shabkat and Usman as I would be Shabat. caught below except for it would be for the actual title with below yeah i mean it's i said this like if i had one criticism of shavkat getting the title shot it was that i just didn't think he had really gone through that top ranked guy like his last win was wonder boy a year ago and i like wonder boy but i don't think wonder boy of 2023 is the same as wonder boy from 2018 or 21 he was like fighting for the title um like it or not i mean i just don't think he's the same dude so i was like i i'd like to get i'd like

him get one more win, right? And so maybe that's what this is. I mean, if he beats Kumar Usman, there's no doubt about it. He deserves the title shot. But I don't know, like I said, I mean, it is, I guess, I guess, as long as, I think what, I think the problem I have is just the, the chances that something else could screwed up. Because that's just how the sport works.

Like, occasionally, it does work out. We got the, you know, Francis Nganoo, Cyril gone fight. I don't think anyone really looked at Cyril and said, man, this guy is one half of the championship. No, he was just holding the belt while Francis was out of action. And Francis wasn't even injured. He just didn't have to,

he just didn't want to turn around and fight five months later. But yeah, I just... Show respect to Usman for taking this fight too, right? Like, I mean, you know, he's just coming off of a Hamzat fight and now coming down to fight the other boogeyman. Yeah, Oussman's the fucking man, bro. I hope it happens.

I know it's not official yet, but that's what everyone's talking about. I think that's probably what's going to end up happening. And I said this, I said this a couple weeks ago, we talked about U.S.C. 308, I said, how much more respect do we have for Ustman now after watching what Shafkat did to, or what Hamzot did to Whitaker? And Ustman took him to a majority decision in a fight that he took on 10 days notice, up a weight class. And we agreed if that fight had gone to a fourth and fifth round, I think Ustman would have won. He was working Hamzad in that final round.

So, yeah, like, dude, I love it. And Ustman, to me, is like, I think to me, I personally rank Kamar Uisman as the second greatest welterweight of all time behind george st pierre george is number one no doubt about it but i have kumarar number two if he can come back and fight and beat shabkat do what a huge win that would be and when there's a lot of tension between below and oosman so i mean it's a win-win for the ufcman so either they get below and ozman there's bad blood or they get bala and shabcat and shabkat as you said is like the new boogeyman so it's a win-win for them okay so let's say ozman comes back beat schovcott beats balaul is he up there with gsb yet no

to get up there. I mean, the problem that Usman has are the two fights with Leon Edwards. Because at that stage, his career, like, GSP never had that. Like, GSP lost. He did lose early in his career, but those were early on.

Like, he had that one weird upset Matt Serra, I understand, and he had that one early, early loss to Matt Hughes. After that, he was never touched. And he had a couple moments in fights that Carlos Condit, head kicking him and kind of catching him there. But after that, he was pretty much

unblemished till he retired. the two losses to Edwards hurt his case a lot. And even though I know he was winning the first fight, the second fight the whole way, and then he got head kicked, and the third one was like a 48, 47 decision. Still a loss. I just can't erase that for what George St. Pierre,

nine title defenses, you know, I mean, it's just tough to beat that. Let's say Usman beats Shavka, Belaw, and then rematches Leon again. I mean, Maybe then because he does have a win over Leon earlier in their careers. Like he does have a win over him, maybe. But it's going to say, I had this.

I think I told you I talked to Demetri's Johnson recently. And we were talking about his 11 title defenses. And he basically agreed with me. And I said that's a record that will never be broken because no one wants to defend their title anymore. Everyone wants to become champ champ. Everyone wants to double champ status. And it is what it is. I'm not going to open a whole other conversation about that.

But he basically said, I don't think that record will ever be broken because, like, A, it's hard anyways. but B, no one wants to stick around their vision to defend their title anymore. And I don't know where Oosven was. I think it was like five title defenses somewhere around there when he lost to Edwards. I mean, I guess if he wins it and does get like five more title defenses, so it's 10 total, not in a row, but just like 10 total, then I guess you could start having that conversation because GSP had nine. But even then it's like, yeah, but in the middle you did get beat by Leon Edwards twice.

And like I like Leon. Let me be clear about that. But I don't know that I put Leon in that same generational conversation like the greatest welterweights of all time, right? Like, good, don't get me wrong. But like what I think of like, I think of GSP, I think of Matt Hughes, I think guys like that, I don't put Leon Edwards in that conversation right now, you know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, he's interesting. Who responds to one of those guys where I just always believe he could do it, you know? Like, he's such a hard guy to beat, and he's so well-rounded, and his striking got so good. and I'm like, he's so durable. Like, he's the type of guy.

I just feel like he could do it. You know, I feel like he could be the best well-to-weight of all time. You know, if he just stays on it, right? If he just keeps going, stays consistent. I think he could beat all those guys, keeping it real. I mean, I think I've banged the drum on the Kamar Usman thing for the longest time.

I mean, I thought for a while he was going to be the best to weight of all time. And I don't think it's impossible. It's tough because I think there's that narrative around GSP, like just a certain aura of greatness. Like, you know, like, we all love Alex Prayer right now what he's doing right now. No one's going to say Alex Prayer is the best light heavyweight over John Jones. Like, we all love what Alex is doing, but let's slow.

Like, no one's saying that. I'm just like, that's like, John has put himself in such a category of his own that you're like, oh, Alex is doing awesome. John Jones is still the greatest. And I think GSP's kind in that, like, situation where, like, he's just, he's GSP. Like, you know, but I mean, listen. And also, let me be honest about this, Matt. I think you'll probably agree with me on this.

This is the worst case scenario for Shavkat because I'm not, I said on the show a couple of weeks ago, I said I think Bilau is a much tougher fight that people are giving credit for. Because he's durable, he's tough, he's got cardio for days. And that fight goes deep into third and fourth round. That's going to be bad news for Shavkat. But we've seen Bilal have early on, like he's had those struggles. The first Leon fight where he had a little of struggle on that first round for the eye poke. We've obviously seen the fight with Jeff Neal.

other fights to Vicente Lucan knocked him out. Usman doesn't have that. I mean, yes, he got headkick knocked out in a late fifth round comeback by Leon Edwards. But we're not really seen anyone really dominate Kamar Usman ever. If Shabkent can't put him away, that could be the absolute worst case scenario for Shavkat Raghman. If he gets the title shot, now he's got to fight fucking Kamar Usman instead. Yeah, and especially if he gets injured along the way, because I feel like fight Nusman.

like you're probably going to have some good bumps and bruises, right? And what you said, Balal's ready to come back in December. I think it's going to be, you know, we'll see what Shavkat's made up now, right? I agree with you. Like, Wonderboy, great win. But that's more of like a win to get you up there to fight that contender.

That's not a normal everyday fighters contender fight, right? And, you know, so he got kind of a, you know, a blessing, you know, when he got a title shot off of that. And now he actually does have to work his way properly. So I think this is actually a good proper fight to make. So it kind of works out in that favor. It shouldn't be an interim title fight, but it is the proper fight to make.

And I think it's a great fight at a great time for all the parties. It's a great fight for Usman, too, right? You know, this is the right time for both of them. Unfortunately, Ballal just kind of gets pushed to the side because now there's a fucking interim title that he's out for six weeks and they make an interim title for him. Yeah, that's unfortunate. All right, Matt, I'm going to make you step on a landmine here and I'm going headline chasing because you just mentioned how much respect you have for Kumar Usman. I think I've said very publicly, I'm a big Kumar Usman guy. I've been on the Kamar Usman train since literally the day he stepped on the ultimate fighter.

and we got to know each other through that show. Like I got to know him doing interviews to that show. Camarro's a great guy, incredible champion. In their primes. Let's get the one-if question. In their primes, who would you have picked? Kamar Ustman or George St. Pierre? They fought.

In their primes, who do you think would have won that fight? Hmm. That's a really good question. I would lean towards Kama, Usman. I always say his name. Kamara, Uzman. I would lean towards him. But man, you know, GSP's not the guy you pick against, but, you know, obviously, like, like, Usman could wrestle with GSP.

I don't think that would be, you know, it would turn into, like, a Johnny Hendricks GSP type fight. You know, so you said, in their prime, right? Like, Usen's striking got really good. And I think, yeah, yeah. And that's like a 51-49 thing, right? But, yeah, I go through Smod on that. Yeah, I agree. I was trying to set you up to him, but you go to the other way,

so we had argument. But I actually would lean Usman as well. I think where GSP would have the advantages with his jab because he always had one of the best jabs in the game, and he was really good at using that long-distance striking and kind of almost like annoyingly, you know, kind of pecking away at you for round after round. Like he didn't really show a lot of knockout power,

but he would just chip away as you to where your eye and Orbiter all busted up, like you did to Josh Kostak, but the difference is that Usman, as you said, really improved his striking and Usman had legit knockout power. You know, I know Hendricks did too, but, you know, Hendricks was also a lot shorter, you know what I mean? Like he wasn't, he didn't have the size and Usen has the size. Like he's, you know, he's matched up well with GSP. And you look at like the fights with Colby, you know, where he just like he was a better

striker than Colby was and he obviously had more power than Colby. I think a lot of that could play out similarly. So, yeah, I'd pick Uspin. Now, again, I still think Uspin has some work to do to separate himself to become the greatest world to wait at all time. But I will say this, and to your point earlier, if Camaro could beat Shavkat and then beat Bilau and regain the title, I'm not saying, I'm not going back on what I just said. I still don't think he'd be the best. But I think he enters the conversation because it's a rare thing for a champion to lose the title, go away for a little bit and come back and win it. I know it was the ugliest fight ever.

I know it was. But even Carlos Barza losing the title, coming back like five years later and regaining it, like that's such a huge thing. Like rarely does that happen. You know what I mean? Like usually when it happens, it's pretty quick. Like it's like automatic rematch or we have like Kane Velasquez and Junior DeSantos. Generally speaking, you don't see guys or girls lose, go away for three, four fights,

and come back and win the title again. If Usman does that, that's super impressive. So still don't think he beats GSP yet in like the all-time conversation, but he's in the conversation. That's a great way to put it. He's in that conversation. There's going to, and especially with the, you know, people being captured in the moment.

There's going to be those people making the argument for Usman in that case. But if you step back in the big picture, yeah, GSP kind of did bigger things. But, you know, I'll tell you what, with Usman, well, or not just Usman, but people coming back and winning titles. like you said after a long time like that, you know, you almost have to have two primes, right? Like usually like guys get a title in their peak,

in their prime. And then afterward, you know, you just kind of fade off, right? You had the glory, you know, and you're probably fighting like to get back to that glory,

but you're not really putting in the same kind of hours that you were, not that same hunger and motivation. So you almost have to just, you have to peek out again. And that's, while there's all these other new young bloods coming up with that more hunger than you have. So that's a really, really tough one to do. If Usman can do it, I mean, especially with, you know, we know about his knee issues.

And, you know, he's been through some wars, too. Like the Hamza fight and, you know, I mean, he's had some real wars. So to be able to come back and do it, that would be very fucking impressive. And I think we're going to know a lot after he fights shopcott. We're going to know a lot about whether he can do that or not. I mean, think about this. Think about the Welterweight title after GSP. Like you had Johnny and Robbie kind of go back and forth,

and then Robbie ends up winning it. Robbie has that epic worth Carlos. He loses to Woodley, never got back there again. Woodley holds it, demolishes Darren Till, beats Wonderboy, goes through those fights, loses it to Usman, never got back there again. You know what I mean?

Like that's, you know what I mean? So if Usman can do it, And I don't know that he will because Shapcat is a monster. But if he does it, that is impressive to come back and do that. And also, I know people are going to hate me saying this. But it's true. And I think that's why you've got to be careful when you compare eras. Because I think George St. Pierre is still a different era, honestly.

Like, when you really think about it. Like, he beat Bispying. And what was it, like, 2017? Like, that's seven years ago. That's a long time. Like, you can think about it now. Like, I'm not trying to pick apart his resume and say these. But like, but that's just a thing.

advancement of sport, right? Like, you can look at a guy like Gilbert Burns or, you know, some of the guys who are Usman on his resume and you say, like, was Dan Hardy really the second best welterweight in the world when GSP fought him? Like, really? Was he? I like Dan Hardy. You know what I mean?

But, like, I don't know that I'd necessarily put him in that. Like, when you think about all-time great categories. I don't know if I put, now, Josh Kostech had a run. I think he's up there. Like, he was a nasty dude. Johnny Hendricks. Yeah, Tiago Alva was when he was there. But there's a couple.

But you can say that. I mean, was Masvedol really that dude? I mean, he kind of was. I mean, when he fought, you know, after what he did to Ascran, and, you know, I mean, he was, you know, but he was also a name. So I don't know. It's, you can pick apart anyone's resume if you really want to.

Yeah, yeah, but there's absolutely a difference in errors. Like, GSP was ahead of his time. Usman isn't ahead of his time. He's just better than the guys of his time, right? I think that's a big difference. I mean, GSP was doing things. He was one of the, not really the first, but we talk about well-rounded fighters.

I mean, he was one of the first that was truly advanced in all areas, right? Like we had well-rounded fighters before that, and of course, now we have a lot of them, but I feel like he was one of the first that was truly good in all areas, you know, in terms of his ability to transition from striking to wrestling to jihitsu

and back and forth and, you know, get up when taking down these types of things that you see in a lot of today that are basically the norm. We got to remember those weren't really the norm back then and particularly his athleticism. That wasn't the norm back then. So I think he was just way ahead of his time. Usman is fighting against guys where, you know, it's not like he's doing something to them that they've never had done to them before.

Yeah. No, you're absolutely right. You're absolutely right. And because I always go back to like, I always called Frank Schen, Damrock, the first real mixed martial artist, because he kind of combined everything in that era. But you're right. Like, even when GSP became champion, like, you would look at guys and say, well, they're, you know, they might be like a Matt Sarah, who was an incredible grappler, but he had knockout power.

Now, I don't know if anyone's going to look at Matt Sarah and say he was a great striker. He just had a big, nasty overhand right, that he could put you out with. But he was a great grappler, right? Tiago Alves, so I have a ton of respect for it. Tiago Alves was a nasty striker with a good takedown defense. But I don't think anyone would say, man, he's got out wrestling. you, he can out jujitsu you. Like, Tiago, if he didn't get the knockout, he didn't get you on your feet, chances are

it wasn't going to go his way, you know what I mean? So, yeah, like, George was like that new breed. And I agree, I think he was just ahead of his time. But yeah, like, I, again, I know it's all hypotheticals, but if you put them in the ring together, I'd lean to Usman. I think Usman's got like, you know? Oh, hypotheticals that's what makes for fun conversations, right? That's what we talk about is hypotheticals.

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Ooh, European chocolate for the crossing guard? At these prices, could I find something for everyone at Winners? Stop wondering. Start gifting. Winners, find fabulous for less. Yeah. So speaking of hypotheticals, Matt, obviously I mentioned next week or not next, but not this week, but next weekend we got UFC 309. And John Jones has taken on Stevie Miochich in the main event. I know we've talked a little bit about this in the past because all the narrative going into this fight is John shouldn't be fighting Steepie. He should be fighting Tom Aspenol. Tom Aspinall is the backup. Now, I'll be honest, I've talked to John Jones coach, Brandon Gibson, and I've talked to Stepe. I do not get the sense that if either one of them fell out of this fight that Tom Aspinall would actually. actually be getting a fight at UFC 309. I think John is pretty set on fighting Steepay, and Steve-Bey's pretty set on fighting

John. So, Tom, I'm sorry to tell you, buddy, you might be weighing in for a whole lot of nothing if disaster strikes, because I don't get the sense of either one of these guys are, like, itching to fight you if, like, one of them falls out. Well, at least he's a heavy weight. It's not like he has a 50 pounds or something. Yeah. So here's the question.

Now, you and I, we're going to break down the fight next weekend, and I was glad I got spent some time with Steve at this last week to kind of see how he looks, how he's and how he feels, and I'm excited to see that fight. We're going to break that down. And listen, we all know John's the favorite, and rightfully so. He's John Jones. He'd be favored over anyone. He should be favorite over Francis.

He should probably be favorite over Tom Aspinall. He's the greatest of all time. I have no problem of being favorite. But there's this growing narrative that if John beats Steepay and retires, that somehow it's a knock on his resume if he doesn't end up fighting Tom Aspinall. So, Matt, I'll ask you, if John, If, let me be clear, if John beats Steepay at UFC 309 and just puts down his gloves, thanks for the cheese, thanks for the cheddar, I'm out, whatever the Connor line was,

and thanks for the cheddar I'm out, retires on the spot. Does his legacy take a hit that he didn't defend the title against Tom Aspinall? Well, you know, that's a pretty easy no. And I know you agree on that. I think what's kind of going on in the back of people's heads there is like, if you want to cement greatest, which it's basically cement already, but like you want to put another nail in that coffin that you're the greatest, like go fight Tom Aspenol.

Like, you know, go above and beyond, which that's the natural order of things as a champion. You're always expected to do another great thing, right? You've already done, John Jones in particular, has already done the impossible, right? he's went undefeated throughout what how many 20 something fights in the UFC now yeah like it's unreal what he's done but it's natural for us as fans to to want him to do the next biggest thing right we're just going to keep setting the bar higher we want to see how bar how high that bar can be we're always going to do that if he goes and beats tom ass but i'll be that we'll fucking you know go beat alice per area or whatever right like that

Like, it's like, there's always going to be another bar to set. Yeah, and I, you know, I agree. I mean, I love Tom. I think Tom's a monster, but Tom's just in a situation where he wants John Jones, but John Jones doesn't need Tom Aspinall. I mean. A fact, yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's not a knock on Tom.

I'd say the same thing. It was just Francis right now. Francis was the champion. Like, Francis was still around. I would say, John doesn't need that. Would I like to see it? Would I like to see John and Tom? sure, I think it'd be a great fight.

But do we need it? Like, is it going to diminish John Jones's resume? Like, I said this to his coach, and I'll say it to you now, and I know you agree. Like, John, if he doesn't fight Steepe, his resume is solid. Like, he's already great. That's what I was about to say is like, he doesn't need to fight Steepay. Like, he's coming up to fight the greatest heavyweight of history right now. So, you know, I guess it's an argument of whether he's the greatest, but, you know,

certainly the longest raining heavyweight. champion of history. Yeah, I just, I understand it, and I know I said this on a past episode, and I know you agree, but I just want to bring it up again because we're having this conversation. Let's not forget two years ago, all we could talk about was John versus Inganu. No one's even talking about that. I understand Ingano is a different organization, but no one's saying Ingano is the fight that got away.

They're saying, we want John in Aspinall, because that's how the sport works. It's what have you done for me lately. Inganu's all fighting random dudes in PFL and fighting boxing matches. He's kind of out of sight, out of mind now. And now we're talking about Tom Aspinall. He's been absolutely wrecking fools. And rightfully so. He's been wrecking everybody looking great doing it.

So we were like, oh, Francis who? What's that? What's that? Tom Aspenol is the man now. That's how the, and as you said, if he beats Tom Aspinall, then they're going to say, well, you've got to fight Alex Prairie. He's the champ now. You've got to fight him.

He's the light heavyweight champion. He's coming for your greatest of all the time. That's how I understand the narrative. I understand how people love the sport. And I get it. I do. but if John Jones got up tomorrow morning, went on Instagram and said, you know what, fuck this Steepa fight, I'm just retiring right now, I'm done.

It would suck because obviously we're all excited for that fight. But his legacy doesn't take a hit. John's legacy is cemented. Actually, he's still taking risks right now because he doesn't need to fight Stepe. Yeah, exactly. It makes me talking about all these guys, it makes me kind of excited. Maybe one day things will work. out in some crazy way

because that's the way the sport is and maybe we could get Aspenol versus Francis one day. I think that would be a pretty fucking cool fight to see. You know, we're talking about John versus Ingano. Like, well, that's probably not going to happen because John's probably going to retire after he fights steep. Maybe

something crazy will be in the cards in this world and could be Tom and Francis. Yeah, I just I just want to make it. Yeah, no, I think that would be a tremendous fight and who would you favor in gano or tom well that's a that's why i was immediately intrigued when it crossed my mind because i don't have a favorite really i mean we know

if francis hits you that's the end of the night but aspinall is very well-rounded and very fast i don't think i can't think of a guy at least that francis has fought that has the speed of aspinall maybe anthony joshua but we see what happened there i think i think you could argue Cyril Gahn is fast, but Cyril Gond has no ground game. And there was just... But Cyril Gond's speed is more like slick and smooth speed. You know, it's like efficient. It's not really like actual fast twitch, I feel like. It might be, I might be, you know, taking a little bit of credit from him. But that's like the feeling, like he's so smooth and efficient. That's what makes it look really good. Whereas Tom has that kind of fast twitch

speed, which is a little bit different, if that makes sense. No, you're right. You're absolutely right. I think the difference for me in that one would be Tom's ability to do other things. Like he doesn't need – like, I know Francis took Hayden Farrer down, but come on now. Like there's about 15 heavyweights on the roster right now in the UFC roster I picked to beat Hayden Farr right now. Like I'm just being honest. Like it's just he's not – he's a good prospect, but he's not that dude. It's a guy that has a shot against everybody because of his size and power,

but he just doesn't have that top-level skill, right? Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I think Aspinall's ability to go to the ground and work there, and actually he's a really good wrestler, really good submission guy, I think that would be the difference. Because if he gets in trouble, he can rely on that now. I mean, it's Francis.

He just flicks you with his finger and you go flying across the octagon. But I'd lean, lean Aspinall, just based on where they're at right now. Maybe it would be different two years ago when Ingano was still, like, you know, in the UFC and not taking all that. time off for boxing and, you know, still, you know, I don't know that, I don't know that Francis is peak Francis anymore, if I'm being honest. I don't know if this is still prime Francis. I think we're maybe on the backside of his career. Yeah, we just don't really know, right? I mean, we can base it off his age, but, you know, what he did to hit him, Ferraro didn't show anything to say he's not prime anymore. We know he took a pretty hefty knockout from Joshua. That's the only thing that we've

seen, you know, in a different sport against one of the elite to say that, right? Yeah. But I think that, but I think that, you know, Aspinall, Aspinall is as good as advertised. And listen, I know Aspinall, if John retires, Aspinall is going to be bummed and rightfully so because he wouldn't get the biggest fight available to him against the greatest of all time because Aspinall wants what everyone wants. They want to fight the best of the world and he wants to fight the guy who is considered the greatest of all time.

That's what he should want. But the flip side for Aspenol, the good side, you want to put a positive spin on this, if John retires, he can spend the next six months saying John retired to avoid me. Now, you and I will say all day, that's not true. We don't believe that for a second, but he can spin that narrative.

I'm the guy, and he avoided me by retiring. And you know what? He should. I'm not saying I agree with him. I'm saying like he should spin it that way. Because then when he fights whoever, you know, when he fights Cyril Gahn, or he fights Alexander Volkov again,

or whoever he fights, the narrative is that John Joan retired, John Jones retired rather than fight me. It's not true. I don't believe it. I don't think that's absolutely, I don't, that's not the case. But he can say that and he can spin it and kind of make himself look bigger and better, and he should. Even though I don't agree with it, he should do that. So I don't think this is the worst case scenario for Tom, but I'm squashing the narrative right now, Matt, when people say, if John, hey, if John lays down the gloves and says, I'm done. on November 16th, he didn't run from anybody.

He didn't retire to avoid Tom Aspinall. He doesn't need Tom Aspinall because there's always going to be another Tom Aspinall. Yeah, and look, if John retires, assuming that he beats Stebe A and retires, or say, Steve A and John Bochard, it doesn't matter, right? There you're rough. Look, the Alpsarra fight with Tom Aspinall is still a massive fight. So Tom doesn't necessarily completely lose here. know that there's other heavyweights out there that are going to make big fights like that at this point i'm sure somebody would be up and coming but if he can get an alks para

fight that's a gigantic fight right there yeah absolutely absolutely i just i don't want people i i i we're all we're all prisoners of the moment and i we're guilty of that too man from time and time you know we're guilty of that too but john like i said john doesn't need stepe he doesn't need anything. He retires tomorrow. I'm still going to call him the greatest of all time. He beats state pay. That's still a huge feather in his cap. But, yeah, I mean, I like Tom. I think Tom's a monster. I think Tom is absolutely everything. Everything is advertised. But to say that John loses something or diminishes his resume because he doesn't fight Tom Aspinall, no, that's just ridiculous. Because there's always going to be

another, I mean, like, you can spin it however you want to spin it. You could say, Francis isn't the best heavyweight because he avoided John Jones. He left the organization rather than fight John Jones. You can spend that narrative and say, well, let's ignore the $30 million he made to fight Tyson period and Anthony Joshua that anyone should take. But that's the narrative. You can spin it and say he left the UFC to avoid John Jones.

That's complete utter bullshit. We know that. But you can spin a narrative any way you want. Yeah, exactly. And, well, the big question here is what happens to John's LUCC? Depe wins. Good question.

I think me and you would agree, right? He's still probably the greatest of all time. He went up away class, fought one of the greatest up there. But I know that there's going to be a lot of people out there saying that was the straw of the broken Kimmel's back. He's not the greatest of all time now. I mean, listen, John, John has his detractors already because of the drug stuff. you know, he does.

I've moved beyond it because I'm starting to live by the Diaz philosophy that everyone's on steroids. So like I just, you know, as you've said many times, you got the money and the means, you can get away with it, you know what I mean? So I'm sure there's other people who've done it. So I've just moved on beyond.

Like, I know it's an argument people make and I'm just done making it because I'm sure at some point John fought people who are on something. With Zamstrung, the greatest cyclist of all time. we know he took drugs. Yeah. And yes, he was the greatest cyclist of all time.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, it's a fact, you know, it was Bairns, the greatest home run hitter of all time.

Yeah. And we know he took drugs. Yeah. And he's still the bad. But that's, so there's already John detractors. I think it's easier for them to say, oh,

he lost the steepe. He's not the greatest of all time. But again, I don't think losing the steepe diminishes his overall. all resume because John, I think John is the greatest all the time. I don't know that we're still in prime John. He's 38, 37, 38.

Like, you do lose a little bit as you get older. That's just natural. He's been fighting since he was in his early 20s. He took his first fight in 1920s. So, I mean, he'd been doing this for 17 years. There's a lot of time on a body. So, no, I don't think it hurts him, but does huge things for Steepay. I mean, you know, that's a, that's a massive, I mean, and if I'm, of course,

if I'm Steepay, he knocks out John Jones, November 6th. 16, dude, I'm leaving my, I'm leaving my, I'm leaving my gloves in the octagon before Joe Rogan could interview me. Like, that's how quickly I'm just like, I'm done. I just beat the greatest while time. I'm out. I was going to say the opposite. If I, if I'm steepe and I beat John Jones, I call Tom Aspinall out right then. Let's go. I don't. Not because he, not because he doesn't want to fight Tom Asper, I'm like, how do you get better than beating John Jones? Because now you beat Tom Asperon. Now you're the champion. And you beat John Jones. I think John Jones is enough for me personally, but, um, John.

I say fight fucking Tom Aspinall. But it, well, not in now, whether you even beat Tom Aspinall, that makes that fight huge, huge, right? Now, so you just ride the wave of that, you know, all the love that you get from beating John Jones, right? Now, now you're the greatest. And now, let's, all right, well, let's do one more. You know, win or lose.

We won more. Yeah, I mean. But all, you're an old man. That's why you lost. I mean, I'm sure Dana will have the checkbook open and ready to write a big check for that one. And it would be a massive fight. So, yeah, but I just. I get the feeling steep doesn't have that kind of hunger and motivation in him.

But I think it'd be awesome if he did that. I mean, I'm not opposed to it. But I think, you know, I think he's probably, you know, this is like the way to write off in the sunset. Fight John Jones. You beat John Jones You know Dude that's like You become the first person

To ever beat John Jones Sorry Matt Hamill You don't really have a win over John Jones You become the first guy To hand John Jones an L You just ride off in the sunset And say you know Peace out I'm good

But yeah I just I hate that That's the fighter in me Where I'm just like You get I always want to set the bar higher to Like don't write off In the sunset motherfucker

Like just do another one Bro You'll be all right Yeah I think the UFC, like they put themselves in a good position here as much as Tom Aspinall wants the fight, as you said. They're still, I mean, Aspinall Pereira is a monster fight. And that's an easy way to get people to forget about the winner of John Jones Steepa is to say, John Jones, Stepe

retired, but now we got Alex Pereira against Tom Aspinall. And people are going to be like, John who, Stepe, who? Now, I'm sure when you interviewed Stepe, not to keep rehashing this, but I'm sure when you interviewed Steve, but you probably didn't want to mention the R word, right? I did. I did. I mentioned the R word. If you get any feeling from, but it sounds like, yeah, you mentioned it, though, right? I asked him, I said, what are the chances this is the last one?

He says, you know, well, he's like everyone could be the last one. You know, the, you know, the fighter, and it's true. I actually brought you up during the interview. I said, Matt Brown always lived by the philosophy that Sunday didn't exist until Saturday night was over. That was always you told me that before every fight. Like, I don't, I could die in here on Saturday night. Sunday doesn't exist to me.

And Steve A kind of lives by the same philosophy, so he's not going to commit one way or the other. But I will say, I asked him, I said, when John fell out of the fight and Dana said they didn't even offer him to get the replacement. Like they didn't say Steve A go fight. At that time, it actually would have been Sergei Pavlovich. Sergei was the backup. Tom's the one who stepped in on short notice. So it would have been Sergey. But I said, you know, Dana said, we're not going to do that.

Like we weren't going to disrespect Steve A by asking him to fight a short notice opponent on two weeks, whatever. So we made the Aspinol Pavlovich fight. And I said, was there ever interest on your side or was it all about John Jones? And he very quickly said, it's all about John Jones. That's the fight I've wanted. So for all the like, this doesn't, this doesn't, I've heard, I love Anthony Smith. That's my guy. But Anthony Smith's like, I think John, I think Steepet would fight Tom Aspinall.

If John fell out, I don't get that sense. This is about John Jones. This is about fighting the greatest of all time. That's what Steepay wants. The only other fight I saw. other fight I get the sense that Steve A wanted was in Ghanu to set of the rubber match. That's it. I don't think

there's, this is legacy stuff for Steve A. It's not, give me the next guy. He's 42. Like, he's not, you know. Yeah, and there's different levels of 42 too, right? Randy Couture was 45, so, you know, I don't always

just end on that, like, yeah, he was 42, you know. But yeah, I mean, he's done what he's done, and he doesn't have anything left to prove either, especially if he goes and beats John Jones. He doesn't have anything to prove. Maybe I'm just kind of jockeing for Tom Aspinall here a little bit

because, you know, I want to see these three go in a circle and fight each other. You know, I'd even pay to see a three-way match there. Who comes out to win or just Royal Rumble type thing, right? But, you know, I just like Tom Aspinall being the mix. I think he's an exciting young fighter. And I think everybody agrees on that, right? We'd like to see him in the mix.

So I'm just giving that little other side of the argument there, the fighter side. We want to see Tom Aspen all in there and see how he stacks up with these guys. Yeah, I agree. No, I agree. I agree. How he's like I said, I just don't want the narrative. I know it's going to happen regardless of John does retire. God, the list he went, like that run he went on where he went through like Shogun,

Rampage, Rashad, like all these, just everybody, Leoto, like everybody, just ran through everybody. And then, you know, obviously with the DC fights and I'm just like, good God, man, this guy's run was ridiculous. He just made it look easy. That was like the scariest part about it. It didn't look like he was out there, you know, grinding. Like the only one we've seen him really fucking suck it up and grind through that I could think of was Gustafson.

and he showed in the rematch, you know, that he's the better fighter, I think, right? And, but I mean, you know, when he was beating those guys, like, I just, I remember the Shogun, when Shogun fight the most because, like, John didn't look like he was breaking a sweat. And Shogun was my man. I was like, dude, Shogun's going to beat him. You know, he's the man. You know, you don't fucking, you don't fuck with pride, bro. And he just made it look like, you know, me going against a teenager in the gym.

It was just amazing to me. Yeah, no, John, I mean, I was at that fight with Shogun. And, like, watching him do what he did. It was like, yeah, you're right. It was like watching a pro versus a rank amateur. And that's not a knock on Shogun. That's just how good John Jones was. And that was at 23.

23, he's out there doing that. I mean, dude, the guy's remarkable. And, like, because I remember, like, when he went out there and fought rampage, it was just absolutely mall rampage. Like, you remember he started the fight on his hands and he was, like, leaping at him. And everyone's like, what are you doing, John? he was just fucking around he went out there and took him down and choked him out like the leota thing the machida got the fucking standing guillotine i was at that fight we're just dropped him and machina just passed out from the guillotine joke like dude john john and john is still a bad man but i'm saying like in that run like that was unprecedented the stuff he was doing was unreal yeah and that was part of my argument for john being the greatest you know when yeah you know i still kind of put dj right up there and and and maybe dj above him

But the way that John was beating guys, you know, again, you just got to go back and look to record. We forget, right? We're all prisoners of the moment. You say it all the time. We forget what John did. But it wasn't just the resume. Like, if you went back and watched that run, I mean, it was just fucking fascinating.

It was like watching bully beat down. I mean, he was out there, like you said, toying around with guys and probably coming off of Coke binges and doing it at the same time. I mean, it was fucking fascinating to work. watch. Like, what a fucking specimen. Yeah, and I say this, like, you bring up DJ, I brought, actually asked DJ this question. I said, would you rather be remembered as the greatest fighter of all time or the most skilled fighter of all time? And he said, I'd rather be remembered as the most skilled fighter.

Because that's where I put DJ. I consider DJ the most skilled fighter all around. Just everything you put together was the most ridiculous package of talents. But my criticism of DJ was, is just fly away it wasn't as deep. It just wasn't. It just didn't have the rest. That's where John has that on him. Like, John is incredibly talented. John is in that argument for the most skilled fighter ever. But it's the resume. All the former champions, legends.

DJ just didn't have that. He couldn't have that because Flyway just wasn't as established. And I think that's where I go back to the Usman thing. Like, I think GSP's nine title defenses is incredibly impressive. But there's a couple on that run where I'm like, eh, you know, but dude, Ousman beating Gilbert. Gilbert

Burns was a savage at that point, beating Maser, knocking out Mazinol. You know, that's where George fell apart at the end of his crew. He was decisioning everybody. Usen was putting broken Colby Covington's jaw. Like, those leave a statement. Those leave a bigger impact. Now you got me thinking about putting Kamar Usen number one.

Damn you. I'm like, I don't know. Maybe Kamaris has an argument here. Well, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think it's hard to take that into account because all we really look at is on paper, right? Who did you beat? How many, you know, how many defenses, things like that? But when you look at,

how they beat him. I mean, that's why people keep putting Tyson up as one of the greatest of all the time, not because of his record. You look at his record and it's not, you know, anything amazing.

He didn't beat, you know, the best guys, period. But the way that he was just, just fucking mauling guys, you know, I mean, it was a thing of legend,

right? Like, we all knew, I mean, I was a kid then, but, you know, everybody knew,

you buy the pay-per-view and you're getting, you know, two minutes of, fucking action at best. And I'm sorry, excuse me. You know, and so that has to be taken into account when you're talking about the greatest of all time because there's so many arguments to be made on both sides.

And, you know, you got to wonder if DJ, if he had that same level of competition, you know, I still think he would have won just as many, but would it have looked as good. because, you know, he wasn't doing what John was doing to guys. Yeah. I mean, would he, like, you could talk about, like, the flying arm bar in the last second, but is Ray Borg of the same level as Rampage Jackson? And that was one highlight, right? Yeah, but I'm just saying, like, he doesn't have a ton of highlights.

Like, like, John was basically a highlight every time. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And I, that's where I go back to the Uspin thing. I'm like, you know what? Like, he did, like, do that fucking knockout. on Mazdaal is one of the nastiest knockouts of all time breaking Colby's jaw save what you about Colby Covington he's not that

dude much anymore but at that time Colby was a mauler Colby looked great and he went out there and broke his jaw in that fifth round and then obviously beat him again um Gilbert Burns man Gilbert Burns is incredible jiu jitza but that dude's got a huge knockout power he dropped him with that jab early in the first round

like oh my God and then Ouswin came back knocked him out yeah I mean I still put GSP number one but while GSP was decisioning basically everybody, right? And, you know, having to work through some hard fights. And, you know, you know, like Mazvedal doesn't necessarily have the best record. You look at it on paper.

But he wasn't getting knocked out. I don't think he ever got knocked out before that. You know, you know, you've known having great defense and I'm being a hard guy to hit. And Usman put it right to him. I remember how shocked I was when that happened, you know. You know, you can always, that's why this whole, you know, grace of all-time argument, is always a fucking disaster. You can,

it's almost like politics. Like you can make a argument for just about anything that you want to pull some shit out of your ass and make an argument for. Yeah. But you're right. I mean, like I said, I would like in that argument,

I would still put GSP number one. But what we were talking about earlier, if Uspin could come back, take out Shabkat, take out Bilal, he's in the conversation. I know we, I'd not repeat myself,

but he's in the conversation. Yeah, yeah. And I'm sure you'll be able to go on Reddit and have that conversation all day. We'll keep it short and give you our two cents. But, you know, those little Reddit dorks, they'll talk about it all day long. And you're going to have all those, you know, people on Twitter X, whatever, you know, talking to shit about how dumb you are for not agreeing with them. And that's the world we live in.

But that's why we have our show so we can promote the most intelligent, well-thought-out. opinions. 100%, 100% every single time. Well, we got and you know, it does the point as I said, we're days away next week. We're going to be breaking down UFC 309. We're going to kind of debut a bit of a new segment where we're going to get you Matt to kind of give keys to victory and like kind of

breaking down what John needs to do, what Steepie needs to do. These are two, I won't see, I'm not saying easy in terms like, but there's just, it's easier to do it because there's so much we've seen in them. Like there, there's no mystery of what we're getting with John Jones and Steepay. They are two very well established fighters. I know you know Steepa very well. You train with Steepa in the past, and obviously I think we're all John, like in terms of take away all the outside the cage

bullshit, John is like, we all love John Jones in terms of talent. The dude's unbelievably talented. So we're going to talk about that next week. Get your keys to victory to that fight for both Steepa and John. Obviously, we'll also talk about Michael Chandler, Charles O'Levara, which is a big fight. Boe Nichols coming back against Paul Craig, Chris Wyman, Eric Anders, so some really interesting fights on there. So we'll get our full breakdown, and pick some predictions next week on the show. And Matt, if people want to support you, as we always like to do, where can they find you? Where can they check out your stuff?

At I'm Immortal Instagram and X Twitter, the Immortal Matt Brown on Facebook. I'll be posting my newsletter up on those every week, my substack Immortal Wisdom newsletter. And, of course, you can check out my sponsor at Try underscore Create for the Best Creating Gummys Around. There you go. folks, we'll be back next week with our full UFC 309 breakdown, getting ready for Madison Square Garden in New York. For Matt Brown, I am Damon Martin. We'll see you next week for another edition of the Fighter versus the Rider. Thanks for tuning in.

We'll see you then.