MMA Fighting - Fighter vs. Writer: Matt Brown Criticizes JDM’s Performance at UFC 322, What’s Next for Islam Makhachev and More

Episode Date: November 18, 2025

On the latest episode of The Fighter vs. The Writer, UFC legend Matt Brown and Damon Martin react to the fallout from UFC 322 including Islam Makhachev claiming a second title with his win in the main event, where it all went wrong for Jack Della Maddlena and how his coaches may have failed him during the fight plus who should be next for Makhachev? Plus we’ll discuss the ugly brawl that broke out involving Dillon Danis and much more. Subscribe to MMA Fighting Check out our full video catalog Like MMA Fighting on Facebook Follow on Twitter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I am Damon Martin. He is UFC legend Matt Brown. And Matt, here we are in a post-UFC 322 world where Islam Makachev is now the weltsweight champion. Valentina Shepchenko absolutely swarded with Zhang Wei Lee. Michael Morales knocks out Sean Brady. Carlos Protest may have put the nail in the coffin for Leon Edwards. Benoit St. Denis with a vicious 16-second knockout, and Bo Nicol got back on track with a headkick knockout.

So all in all, pretty big night. Yeah, yeah. And, man, it was an amazing night until, like, the last two fights, right, which happened to be the longest fights. And, I mean, all respect to what they did, you know what I mean, they weren't doing it to slouches and great game plans. but man after about you know we're staying up till one o'clock watching it and it must have been about what 11 11 15 until 1 o'clock we were watching one person dominate another just and

yeah it was it's not so exciting at that point but it's the sport and I love the sport you know no disrespect but man that was a it ended up being a long rough night you know it was crazy you too because we started out with that 16 second knockout then you got that carlos protest knockout then you got the michael morales knockout man it's going quick and then then you get two five rounders back to back and it kind of slows things down again yeah i was sitting with my son watching and man we were so stoked we're having so much fun and you know because there's knockouts and uh protest uh upset i don't know maybe he was the favorite but you know it felt like an upset to me with him coming in and michael morales and how what was uh benoit i

I mean, it was just, like, spectacular. I was like, dude, this is a great car. This is fun. And then, you know, Valentina, you got to love her. Like, she's the, I think she's, in my opinion, she's the greatest female girl's fighter of all time. But, man, that, that really put me to sleep. I was having a hard time keeping my eyes open.

Well, let me, let's start with the main event. Islam Ocachem goes out there, becomes a two-division champion, an absolutely dominant performance, just suffocating performance, shuts down Jack Della Madeline. Let me ask you this, man. Because I don't, we always talk about this and you always bring this up

and you make a very, very valid point. We shouldn't talk about what another guy did wrong, talk about what the guy did right. Islam Ocatchev went out there and absolutely dominated. But did you get a sense, because I did, that a lot of what happened with Jack Della Madelena on Saturday night was him shifting into survival mode. Like, I don't want to get finished.

So, like, he was working out of, submission, staying out of submissions, you know, but, like, I don't know that he made, and I know this sounds like, I know this sounds like a terrible insult. I'm not trying to say it that way, but like, I don't know that he made like a great effort after like that second round to win. Like, he was in survival mode and like his coaches were just like, we need more, Jack, you got to get up. And like, no technical advice. Like, it was just like he, like, I'm not, I'm not saying Islam doesn't, like you couldn't say, man, Islam, you could have gone for a little bit more. You could have done a little bit more here, but like it just felt like he was doing everything to

finish or win the fight, and Jack was doing everything just not to get finished. Yeah, it seemed to me, yeah, I mean, like he didn't really have a choice in the matter either way, to be fair, but what it appeared, just from the outside looking in, again, I don't want to sound like, I mean, Jack's an amazing fighter, don't want to take anything away from, what it appeared was like he trained a lot to defend the jih Tjitsu of Islam and survive because I mean it was amazing how he survived those submission attempts I mean Islam went for a few really good submission attempts and Jack was very crisp on his defense and it seemed like that was what he had trained the most of course we have no idea right we're just speculating but it did not appear that he trained

his wrestling much because he did not do he did not give hard hardly any resistance at all to Islam's wrestling and I'll tell you I made a similar mistake when I fought Damien Maya I did the exact same thing I trained so much uh training to to defend damien's rear naked choke specifically but uh you know other things too and um and what happened was I ended up in uh with him having my back most of the fight and I defended it most of the fight and then I actually the only reason that I ended up getting cops I just went for a kamikaze escape 30 seconds left it's like you already lost the fight nothing to lose but that was really the story of the fight and and it felt to me like jack made the same mistake that I made where I focused on

what my opponent was doing and how to defend their offense versus how do I get some offense myself and um you know but particularly with jack just defending the wrestling i'm i'm really i was really surprised to how easy it was for islam a lot of the times um like you said you can't take anything away from islam i mean you know jack may not have had a choice at all but um there seemed like some pretty basic things that he could have done that he wasn't doing that i that he did in other fights that he has a skill to do so maybe it's just Islam well i think the very first take that when he did that inside trip that was beautiful I think that was like an unavoidable one.

Like he just did it. But like there were a couple of double legs where it almost just looked like Jack was just like giving up the takedown. He's like, okay, I know I'm going to get taken down. Let's work on the ground because there was no sprawling. There was like no resistance because like it wasn't, at least in my opinion, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but it looked like there was not even really a setup. Like Jislat was just diving for the legs and taking him down.

There was no like combination with the hands and then dipping down. He was just diving for the legs and Jack was just getting taken down. And I think to your point, like it's almost like he spent, like I said, I'm just speculating here, but it just seems like he spent his camp, like here's how I'm going to defend off my back and try to get up again, not don't get taken down. You know what I mean? Like with Bilau, it looked like he was like, I'm not going to get taken down. And he didn't.

I know on the stat sheet he got taken down like three times, but I only remember those takedowns in that fight. And this one, it was almost like, I know I'm going to get taken down. What can I do off my back? And I feel like that was just the wrong game plan. I know you mentioned on Twitter last night, like his coaches between rounds. Like I'm not trying to just dig on his coaches, but like they were giving him like motivational speeches, I guess. But like there was no technical advice.

They were not like watch for when he dips his head or what, you know what I mean? Like it was weird. Like it was just a lot of like, we got to get going, Jack. We got to get going Jack. And I'm like, great. Where's the advice? I know, I know Corning you can blow it out of proportionally how much advice you're going to get in that like one minute period. But like, I know you mentioned.

that like what is his coach is doing yeah it seemed very odd to me like they were just trying to him up the whole time i was a bro he could be fired up as he wants like if he doesn't start doing something different it's not going to help like you can like he's fighting hard as hell right like i mean he's grimacing the whole time like he's squeezing hard as he can you know fighting against the submissions hard as he can like the guy is giving it his all like telling him to give it more is not going to help a single thing And if anything, tell them to relax a little bit. And, you know, one of the things I'm big on in Corning is it's very difficult to stay in the moment, right?

We always think about what happened in the last round. And, you know, I think it's a lot like golf, right? You can't worry about where you just hit the ball. Like, you have to worry about how you're going to hit the ball next to get closer to the pin, right? If you're sitting there thinking about your last shot, you know, you're just mentally fucking yourself. Or it's like cards, right? Where you're playing Texas Hold'em and, you know, you, you know, I don't know, you, you folded and then he shows you that he bluffed and then you're over there fuming and you're

like, now you just start playing the, you know, the Queen 8, you know what I mean? You're like, I'm fucking betting it all in this Queen 8, you know? And that's not a good way to play, right? You got to, you have to move to the next moment, right? Every moment, the only the next moment is the only one that counts. And I had a sports psychology coach back in the day that he would. that would teach me that. I said, just fight 10 seconds at a time.

You win the next 10 seconds, you'll win the fight. Win the next 10 seconds. Then win the next 10. And it felt like they were kind of ruminating on the past of the past rounds. Like, dude, you can't do what you did then. You got to do more than that. And it's like, what more is there to do? You know, I would have loved to hear them say,

hey, Jack, sprawl your legs back. when he comes in for a shot stay heavy have your hips heavy you know something along those lines you know whether it would have helped or not who knows and and you know it's one of those things like we don't have any idea the dynamic between them and uh you know as friends as as as relationship as coaches so i try not to hate too much but yeah in the moment when i was hearing it and i posted on twitter i was like it was just driving me nuts i was like i mean i can't can't listen to this. Like, this is not the way you corner a guy at a high level. You're in a championship fight against potentially the greatest of all time, certainly one of the greatest

of all times, right? He's absolutely in that conversation now. He has the potential to be the greatest of all time. That's not how you talk to a guy in the corner. He's like, he's already the champion. Like, he's motivated to go out there and win the fight. Yeah, it's weird because it just seemed like it kept going round after round. I don't want to sit there and just spend the entire time digging on his coaches, but it was a weird, and like you could see it. Like it was a demoralizing fight because it wasn't like while we talk about so much of the fight did take place on the ground, there were striking exchanges.

There absolutely were. Like Islam nailed him with some calf kicks and were nasty. He definitely damaged that lead leg. So it's not like they just spent 25 minutes on the ground. Did they spend a lot of time on the ground? Yes. But there were moments when Jack could have let his hands go, could have tried something. You know, like, you know, like, Islam was, like, kind of naked diving for double legs.

Throw him knee up to middle. I know, listen, I know I'm the idiot journalist who has never fought, but I'm just saying, like, those are things you see when guys are shooting naked double legs and they're not setting it up with punches to make you, you know, avoid it. Throw a knee up to middle. Maybe you don't land him, at least you try. It just, it almost seemed like he was just, he was just, he was just conceding it. He was just like, okay, I'm going to get taken down. What's next? You know, and there was no real resistance.

and by the fifth round it was almost like okay I want to make it to the final horn like at that point it didn't feel like I'm going to win or I'm going to pull off the comeback it was I just don't want to get finished in that way

maybe his coaches read that and that's why they were trying to motivate like no like you're better than this and they could maybe see in his eyes that he was just defeated right and maybe that's what it was yeah I don't and I don't

that maybe that's the right advice at that point you are i said we don't know the dynamic but but i know but i know when you said that like i think you was i think you said that like after like the second round like this was the entire fight like it wasn't like it changed like it wasn't like the first round they were giving all technical advice in by the fifth round they're just like get fired up jack like it was the same kind of thing round after round it wasn't like it suddenly became that way like i feel like every time we went to the corner was kind of the same thing happening well i remember the one round Craig Jones was in the, it came in the octagon and gave him a little bit of actual advice.

And then it seemed, I think that it was the next round. Maybe I don't remember which was which, but earlier in between rounds, it was Craig Jones. And then later on, it was whatever other coach. And Craig Jones was trying to give him real advice. So it'd be interesting to hear Craig's take on that or his coach's take. I'd like to hear what they have to say, not just, you know, beat a dead horse here on people they can't defend themselves, right? You know, I would like to hear their opinions or their thoughts on kind of what their corner strategy was or what they were thinking and what they were trying to say. It's one of those things after every time I corner someone, I take mental notes of how I handled it and how we spoke and I talked to other coaches about it.

I don't think a lot of coaches do that either. You know, I think after the fight, they just kind of move on to the next fight. But, you know, I think there's such an art to that. It's very, very underrated. Well, you mentioned, you mentioned, obviously, you talk about your fire with Damien Maia. Like, it did feel like, it did feel like Jack wasn't preparing for the right things to deal with Islam. He was dealing with, like, you know, avoiding this submission, avoiding the jihitsu, but not avoiding the takedown. And that was just disastrous because Islam was taking him down at will.

Like, he did not look like the guy who shut down Bilal Muhammad's wrestling. And I know Bilal, to, you know, to Bilal's credit, Bilal was trying to strike with him a little bit more. and he wanted to show up to Canelo hands or whatever. But ultimately he did shut down the wrestling attempts. And Balal is so good against the cage, and he couldn't really do that against Jack. And it almost seemed like there was no resistance. Like once Islam got him down like that first and second round, it was just like at that point, he was just conceding the takedowns.

And Islam, like I said, he wasn't even setting up the double leg. He was just shooting the double leg and taking him down. And what I'd tell you what it felt like to me was he had probably, he had never felt someone like Islam before. I don't know who's in his camp. I mean, you know, Craig Jones is a jiu-tizu guy, you know,

one of the greatest of all-time jiu-tizu guys. But that's not Islam, you know. It felt like he had never felt that kind of pressure before and wasn't really sure how to handle it. Like it seemed like maybe he had taken for granted his ability to get up. And like I say, he certainly defended the submissions very well. And you could see him trying many days. different ways. Some Craig Jones, clear Craig Jones ways of trying to stand up with like

Octopus Guard type stuff and different things like that. But it felt like he had just never, he didn't realize what he was in for. And that speaks nothing but volumes about Islam Makachev, right? I mean, the guy is something special and there's probably not very many people that have felt that kind of pressure before. Yeah, I mean, you wonder like how much wrestling. Like I remember years ago, I was talking, I remember it was going to Daniel Cormier before he fought Alexander Guston, he never lived this down because Gustafson did score a takedown on him, and he's like, I'll never live that down. But I remember leading into that fight, he was joking with me, and he's like, when I used

to wrestle the guys from Sweden, it was just like a buy into the next round of the tournament because I knew they were not going to actually challenge me. And so you wonder, like, when you're doing that, like, who are you bringing in? Like, you know, if you're Alexander Gustafson and you're in Sweden, and Sweden's wrestling team is probably not going to help you that much. That's when you bring, well, I mean, not then back in the day, but like, that's where like a Chamaeev would help you because Chimaya is an incredible wrestler, guys like that,

you bring in those guys to help you now. Because I remember when Connor was fighting Khabib, and he brought in this one dude who was like, I think it was like, I can't remember where he was from, but like some random guy and I'm just like, yeah, that's not really going to help you against Kibb, man.

Like I looked up to guys' credentials and I'm just like, maybe he's an incredible, maybe he's the greatest coach ever, but that doesn't mean, you know, coaching and doing it are two different things. And like, because I remember, I remember, I remember who it was.

Maybe it was Kyle Snyder. somebody else, like, I'd welcome to help Connor. And I'm like, call him, call him now. Call that guy right now to help you with the wrestling. Not saying you're going to stop, Kabib, but at least you have a better chance of stopping Kabib. And you just wonder, like, where they bring in, like, did they bring in top Russians or top Americans or Cubans or, you know what I mean?

Like anybody from, like, a legit wrestling community just to, like, work on the wrestling? I don't know. And to your point, like, yes, it is a different world when you get an Islam Akachov on top of you. And I think, and I hate to, I don't. ever want to tear down one person to build up somebody else, but when you watch how Valentina Shukchenko just bullied Zhang Wei Lee, who looked, like, going into the fight, I think a lot of

people thought Zhang could win that fight. Like, there was a lot of people thought she was going to win that fight. She won nothing of that fight. She won zero minutes of anything against you. And the rolling narrative was she looked outmatched, outsized, outpowered. She couldn't deal with Valentina's size and strength. one fight later you get a guy coming up from 155 who looked every bit of a welterweight he did not look like a lightweight trying to be a welterweight he'd look like a welterweight

and i wonder maybe there was a little bit of that in there too like oh i'm going to be the bigger stronger guy islam gets on top of him and he's like oh shit i'm not the stronger guy yeah yeah well it's interesting when you talk about the the disparity of those two fights like Like, Zhang was clearly outmatched, out-muscled, out-sized, out-strength, out-technique, like, basically everything, right? I was actually surprised it was only 50-45. I thought it would be a 10-8 in there. But with that said, Zhang attempted to fight the whole time, too, though. Like, she tried to sprawl.

She tried to lower her level, or match level, and tried to, you know, push the head away and all these different things. and, you know, I want to beat a dead horse and, you know, I want to say it's with all respect to Jack Della Madalina, but we didn't see those things out of him. He seemed very much like he was conceding to take downs. And, you know, we can't read his mind. I'd like to hear, you know, what they have to say by him and his coaches and what their game plan was. And it's, you know, sometimes, you know, these guys have some wild game plans that, you know, maybe his game plan was to let him take him down and keep getting back up.

up and wear him out with him getting taken down and had that worked we'd be looking back right now being like wow that was the most brilliant game plan ever don't even try to stop his takedown right we'd be saying the opposite but it clearly didn't work um so yeah so it was it's just interesting that disparity between the fights because you know uh but but you know the difference was like valentina was just worlds above jang in every respect and i've said for a long time valentina's the most skilled female fighter we've ever seen in the octagon um Amanda nunez you know beat her up a little bit i guess i mean you know the the one fight was very close um you know i think i had valentina winning that fight if i remember right but you know it's kind of whatever

you know and Amanda's like you know bigger stronger and uh you know it's just it's a little different you know valentina is the best we've ever seen yeah i mean i think talent wise like we always talk about like you know like the greatest ever versus like the most talented that's why it's like the greatest ever john jones most talented ever's john jones demetrius johnson in my opinion like talented um valentina is talented like the talent that i think she's like remarkably because like when she came in we're like oh she's a moitai striker and now she's like this incredible wrestler and this incredible like everything like she's just a complete mixed martial artist but also we talked about jack and his

game plan and where he came up short but let's give credit or credit is due to islam macacha and he came in there and absolutely dominated and you can't and no one can say he didn't go for the finish he was constantly trying to finish like he was constantly going for submissions he was dropping some nasty ground and pound he like I said you can even argue he won the striking like he had the calf kicks he was chewing up jack on the feet as well so islam fought a complete fight wasn't the most exciting fight in the world no but that wasn't for islam lack of trying like He tried numerous times. Like I said, he had that Darsh choke at one point.

I'm like, oh, it's a wrap. Credit to Jack for slipping out and not getting submitted. A couple different times. He had the arm triangle. It looked like he was setting it up. Jack, you know, got out of it again. But that's more of a defense thing. Like, he got out.

But Islam was trying to finish. Like, Islam was out there. But he looked so good. And, like, everyone talks about the weight cut and all that kind of stuff. Like when guys say, oh, I'm going to be much better without the weight cut. Okay, well, let's see how it actually goes because, you know, you could still gas out. everything Islam said seemed to come true because fifth round he looked as fresh as ever because you know wrestling's hard man wrestling is tiring it is exhausting and especially when

you're the one doing all the takedowns and holding a guy down that does take a lot of energy Islam looked fresh as ever in that fifth round like he was still going he was still going for finishes in the fifth round yeah to be fair his wrestling he didn't have to work hard for it right but but man I'm really excited to see what happens with Islam next you know I mean We've seen some, obviously, some other welterweight fights on the card that have potential title shots. I like to see him fight Usman. I mean, I know that, you know, there's other guys that are right there pushing for that title shot and have real good reasons for it.

Man, Usman is the fight to make, though, right? That's the one where if you get past Usman, boy, that is a, you. You made a real statement for, you know, goat and all those different things. Well, I think what, like, Michael Morales doing what you did to Sean Brady was so impressive. Like, he just shut down Sean Brady and knocked me. That was super impressive. And I think Carlos Prattest knocking out Leon Edwards was super impressive, too. Because like it or not, no one had ever knocked out Leon before and he knocked him out inside two rounds.

Both incredibly impressive wins. But what is Islam best at? He is an incredible wrestler, incredible grappler. Well, listen, I'm not saying, I mean, Michael Morales just shut down Sean Brady, but Sean Brady is more of a jiu-jitsu guy. He's not the level of wrestling that Islam is. And you look at protests, like, we haven't really seen him wrestle much, but I got to imagine, like, it's probably he's not going to be on Islam's level when it comes to grappling.

Who in the division has the best grappling and wrestling right now that's actually on a win streak? Oh, well, Kamar Uspan just won, beat up Walking Buckley for five rounds. It looked really good doing it. And yes, he did lose a couple to Leon, but, I'm not knocking Leon Edwards, I'm just speaking the truth. He won more rounds and he lost against Leon in those two fights. And he went up on 10 days notice and fought Hamza Lachamai, but almost beat him. If that would have gone five rounds, I 100% believe Usman would have won that fight.

On 10 days notice, by the way. Usman, to me, is the most difficult matchup for Islam at 170. Like it or not, like he is. And when you're talking about someone like Usman, who's really, I mean, he's, in the talks for the greatest wealth weight of all time, right? Like, he's, I know most people are going to say GSP. I mean, Usman's right there with him, right? Like, there's a argument.

It's GSP and Usman in my mind. It's those two. Right. But there's an argument that Usman did more than GSP did, right? Had tougher competition. You know, there's an argument. I'm still with GSP, but there's an argument there. I think there's people that believe that.

But even however you feel about that, When you're that level, I remember I said this about Israel to Sunni, you get an immediate rematch when he lost Alex Pereira. So look, when you're that level of champion at any point, like, yeah, I think you are always a fight away from a title shot or deserve the immediate rematch. Like, you've earned your ropes already. And I think that Usman is at that level where he's earned his, when he comes off a win, like off a Joaquin Buckley win,

like he should be able to get a title shot. I agree. And also, like, it's not like he went out there and beat the number of 14 guy. You know what I mean? Like, he just won and got back. He beat Joaquin Buckley. He was on a run. Like, he had just beaten up Colby Covington badly. And he'd won the whatever was like five in a row, knocked out Wonderboy. I mean, he was on a run. Like, he was like in the top five. It wasn't like he beat up, you know, the guy on the outside looking into the rankings or

the number 14 guy. He beat a top five guy off a year and a half layoff and went out there and dominated him for five rounds. Like, that says a lot. lot about who he did it against and how he did it. Yeah, I mean, and when you, like, I think Shavkat, Rakmanov is a monster, but the guy's been out for a year and a half, he's kind of lost his position because of timing, like it or not, the injury kind of wiped him out. He needs to come back and win one to get back on track, and maybe they have him fight Jack. You know, they were kind of jawn a little bit during the week, or he fights.

Maybe you do Shavkat and Michael Morales, do like, you know, somebody's, oh, got to go. Something like that. Like, there's other potential amount. Obviously, we got Ian Gary and Balaah, Muhammad, coming up. this weekend in Qatar. If Ian Gary wins, obviously he's going to be in that race, although I still don't think he's going to be as close as a couple of the other guys.

But Usman, like, and also you got to look at the time. Usman's 38, you know, he's up there. He's up there in years. If you wait too much longer, age may actually do catch up to him. You know what I mean? Like, you may wait too long and then you don't get it. Maybe Uspen fights, I don't know.

Maybe you haven't fight Ian Gary and he wins, but then, you know, maybe he gives their knee injury or something. Do it now. Like, do the fight now while it's relevant, while you're going to give Islam. And like I said, I honestly believe Usman is Islam's toughest test because he has the wrestling and grappling to match Islam. And realistically, the name value,

Usman has by far the highest name value of any of those guys. So, you know, if Islam goes out and wins, it's a huge feather on his cap. And, you know, it's hard to make the argument that Usman's out of his prime now coming off a win of Yolkeem Buckley and, you know, such a close fight against Hamzah. And, you know, the Leon Edwards' fights are kind of the little problem there that we have, right? But, you know, that is what it is.

Again, he's a great champion, and I think he deserves to get back in there. I mean, I think the obvious fight to make for the next contender is Morales' process, right? I mean, they fought, you know, I feel like you don't see that too often when guys fight on the same card and win, and then they end up fighting each other in the future. but I mean like what a matchup that is right who doesn't want to see that fight oh yeah I mean process process and and and Morales would be incredible or like I said you can throw in you can throw in Shavkat in any combination that Shavkat versus Prontas Shavkat versus Morales any of those like you got options I guess you know but I agree with you

I think process and morale is be incredible and and do it as do it as the co-main event for when you do Usman and Islam or you know I don't know if they're going to be in the White House card or not maybe do something like that but Yeah, why did we want to see Armin get the fight with Islam? Because Armin had been so good and so dominant wrestling, and that's the one style that Islam really hadn't fought again. Like, you know, Dustin Porre is a boxer. You know, he fought, you know, Moikano is a jiu-jitsu guy and a bit of a striker.

You know, all the guys that Islam had beaten, you know, Volkanowski, a striker. He's not known for wrestling, not known for his takedowns. He did a great job defensively in that first fight, but he still got beat. he got knocked out in the second map but like you think about and then you know dan hooker dad hooker's a very good fighter but dan hooker's not a wrestler you know what i mean he's not he's not that kind of grappler why did we want to see islam and fight armin so badly because armin had the wrestling and had gotten so much better from their first fight they're like i want to see what will happen like when you put him in against another top grapple we always said that

for years with kabib too like we're like man what happens when he finally gets to like a top wrestler never really happened because Gaichi doesn't really wrestle but like in that so that's why beyond the fact that Usman is one of the at worst one of the two greatest welterweights of all time he actually and he's a legit welterweight he's a big welterweight

he has the wrestling and the grappling to counter what Islam does best now if Islam goes out there and takes down and Ragdoll's Usman the way he just did to Jack Della Madelana holy shit because if he goes because think about this way and I know you'll agree with me I'm just kind of speaking to the choir if he goes out there

fights process and just takes him down and dominates him and submits him in the third round. Did we really learn that much new about Islam Accha? But if he does that to Usman, that's pretty damn impressive, right? Because you just don't do it. Even the vice of Usman's lost, he hasn't been out-wrestled or out-grabbled. Yeah, absolutely. That's kind of, there's kind of a couple different paths that Islam could go here. Because, look, I mean, he has killers in this division.

going to deal with one way or another. I mean, with protests, Ian Gary and Morales, Shavkat, Usman. I mean, what a fucking murder as well, right? But we know what the harder path is, right? There's the Usman, the Shavkat. It would have said Sean Brady before, but, you know, but like there's a harder path. But he could also, and I'm not saying that he'll even win one way or another. Who knows, right?

but he's going to be favored to beat Morales. He's going to be favored to beat Protest. I mean, I assume he'd probably even be favored to beat the other guys, but it'd be a way smaller favorite, right? Like, he's going to be a big favorite over our process of Morales or probably an Ian Gary because we know what their weakness. Well, we don't even know that it's a weakness, but we know what matchup-wise, Islam strengths,

versus what we've seen out of those guys. We know what Islam's going to do, and we know what he's done to others. Yeah. You know, he could potentially go on. I mean, that could be a three-fight streak right there. You and Gary Morales and Prattis, right? If Islam just, if he gets to pick his guys and he gets, now he goes on a four-fight

title spree, run, streak. Like, those are your picks, right? And you go through those guys. And now you're in some goat talks for sure. Now, if he goes out and it ends up being Usman, And Shafka, I mean, I think us, people that watch and kind of study this shit a little more, we're going to be like, holy shit. Like, this guy is the greatest and blah, blah, blah.

You know, we'd be singing a lot more praises. That's a harder path, though. Right? That is a harder path there, which, again, we'll just sing higher praises. But, you know, in the end, we all. also know in the end it's just it's a w or not a w right it don't matter how easy to fight was how the matchup was 20 years from now when people are there 10 years from now when people are looking back they're going to see a w or not a w how long was the streak yeah well i think i think

the usman fight is the one to make because usman's on you know he got that win he's he's established as you said he's one of the goats of the waterway division and i would have questions about that fight. More questions, and I would have a lot of that one. So, yeah, do it. Do it now. Make it, like I said, maybe Islam goes out there to meet Usman dominantly, and we're like, wow, like, we're really blown away. And then, like, at that point, let him do his run. Let him go through to Ian Gary and Pratchez and Morales and maybe he wins all those fights and just walks away on top of the world. Who knows? But to me, give him the hardest fight out of the gate, and the hardest fight, in my opinion, right now stylistically,

is Kumar Usman. He's got the wrestling. He's got the grapple. He's got the size. And let's not forget, so like Usman's a bum on the feet. Like, he knocked out some good strikers. He knocked out Jorge Maserl. He knocked out Gilbert Burns. It's not like he's a bum on the feet. Did he get caught in the fifth round in that head kicked by Leon Edwards? Sure, a fight he was winning. He was winning dominantly. He just got, he got caught. And

credit to Leon Edwards were doing it, but he got caught. And outside of that, he's not had that experience before. He got knocked out in that one fight. That's it. So yeah, I think that's the one you make, man. Strike while the iron's hot. Go for the toughest match up out of the gate. And I agree with you. He beats

Usman without doing anything else. Islam's put himself in some pretty rarefied error just by those two things, like becoming champion and then beating the second greatest, well, at worst, the second greatest well to wait of all time. Yeah, and man, it is just crazy where he's at right now because, I mean, we're talking about him, you know, as great as he is, just how do you elevate that to the highest that you can, right? Because, I mean, I said it before the fight.

This is one of the rare occasions where, you know, he goes. out and the double champ thing doesn't really mean as much as the fact that he just went out and dominated another champion and it's this time more so than other times I've seen this kind of thing like it's really meaningful

and particularly because of the way that he dominated. Had he got to finish obviously that would have been better but he didn't so you know he didn't I'm not sure if he lost a single second of that fight I think maybe the first 10 seconds maybe you you might give to Della but

I mean, I don't think he lost a single second after that. I mean, it was just utter domination and just beautiful, beautiful work by Islam. You just, you got to, I give him so much praise because I didn't think he would do what he did. I thought there was a chance that, you know, he would get a lot of takedowns on Jack and end up winning. But to dominate him that thoroughly and completely, I was not expecting it. And I wish it wasn't that way because I wanted to. stay up and my eyes be open a little bit, but I totally respect it. Support for this show comes from Odu.

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The downloaded two ghosts in the machine. Available now, only from Audible. I posted a photo last night on Twitter because after the fight, everyone kind of posed together and you see, you know, Khab and Islam and Usman Dermagamatov all there in the crowd, you know, posed together. And I said, is this the greatest team in M.M.A. history? this might be the greatest team in the history when you look at like, you know, bar none top to bottom. And yes, like it or not, like there have been losses on team Kibibib, just like there's losses and everything.

When you think about the level of domination for Kibibib to be champion, now Islam's champion, Ushman is champion in a different organization, listen, I think, I think Marab is going to be champion for a while, but I still think Umar is the toughest matchup for Marab Dwellis really at Bantaway. Now, maybe he never beats him. I don't know, but I would like to see that rematch at one point or another. but I'm like, man, when you start thinking about the legacy of that team, they're pretty damn impressive. He's like, yeah, there's always going to be losses, but there's losses everywhere.

But when you think about, man, you're like, Kabib is, you know, what, second greatest light weight of all time behind Islam? And Islam is now, you know, putting himself in that, like, you know, a couple wins away from being goat talk. I mean, that team is ridiculous. Yeah, yeah. Not coming up with too many contenders for that spot, right? You know, city kickboxing actually might have a,

a vibe for that, right? Between Israel and Volcanovsky and you know, they got Hooker, Kikar France. I mean, they've done some special stuff out there. I mean, I think Jackson's probably got the closest because they had John Jones and Georgia St. Pierre at one point. Like that's,

you know, they weren't like best of fringe. Yeah, but you know, they had GSP for what, a couple months or something? You know what? He was, for us a hobby was his primary trainer, but I mean, he did spend time there. But like, I mean, you think about the legacy. Jackson's like they did have a lot of great and you know not taking away American top team they put together and you know but they're just a bigger team too like

American top team is like 400 people so you know and team Khabib is like 20 so I mean obviously there's going to be a lot more disparity there but yeah when you just think about like the what they've done and like the number of guys they're doing it with is pretty remarkable but yeah I mean it's hard to argue when you think about it like yeah city kickboxing I think there's some you know some obviously some argument there and I think Jackson's in its peak maybe not today but at its peak and like Jones and Holly Holm when she knocked out Rhonda Rousey and like, you know, but you were talking about longevity.

Kabee was undefeated. Granted, yes, he walked away and retired. I don't blame him for that. He did it to honor his mother after his father passed away. Totally understand that. But he did retire undefeated. Now you got Islam on this run. You got Uspen doing what he's doing over in PFL.

I know we want to see Uspen over in the UFC at some point. I think we will see that. Then we're going to find out just how good he is. I think he's really good. But we don't know until we see him in that kind of competition. But yeah, man, that team is ridiculous. Yeah, yeah, and, you know, the only thing I would argue everything you said there or debate or, you know, on board, whatever, I think Peter Yon is going to be Marab's toughest fight, actually. I think this rematch, I think I'm actually, I don't, I don't, I'm not going to pick Yon, but man, Jan, when he's on point, he's so good.

And we see what happened in the first fight, right? Marab just spam takedowns, right? He didn't even get hardly any takedowns. I'm not sure if he got any takedowns. You know, didn't really land any strikes just, boom. I think Yon's going to be better prepared for that this time, and I think he's going to have a better answer this time. So I don't know if it's going to be enough to beat Marab

because Marab is such a fucking machine, you know, hence the nickname. But I think that's going to be his toughest test, though. Yeah, it's going to be interesting. You cannot jump off the Marab train now, though, man. You've been leading that train for you. I've also been on the Yon train for just as long now. Yeah, but you've been banging that. You've been banging that Marab drum for a while now saying he's like the best,

so you can't jump off now. Fair, fair. Yeah, and I'm not going to, you know, I do, I'll still pick Marab. But, you know, I think Yon, you know, the second time they're going into fight, I mean, he knows what to expect now, right? And Yon is a better striker than Mara. I think that's kind of unquestionable. and he can stop his takedowns.

It's just now can he do something to slow those takedowns down, counter-wrestle, you know, he's got to add a little bit more to the game, obviously. You know, obviously Marab has added more to his game too. So it's good, you know, but I think it's going to be his toughest fight, though. That's all I'm saying about. No, I, you may be right.

And it's kind of funny to talk about, like, you know, when Jack was doing everything he could to stop his, opponent not focusing on himself like what you talked about damien my you wonder if like the first time your peter yon just focused so much on stopping takedowns which he did stop most of the takedowns i think where i think where i was like 11 of like 60 or some insane number like that and you're like man that's impressive but he did get taken out 11 times and he just didn't do anything else like that was the problem like he stopped takedowns but he didn't he forgot to actually produce any offense and so yeah well i'm not sure you get a lot of these times

but both those fights were talking about it's like did the guy have a choice either it's easy for a stay on the sidelines and he's like bro you got to run that knee up the middle or something and it's like it's like uh you know he may not had a choice and and that's the problem with mara like he doesn't leave you options he doesn't leave you choices like you're going to be in his fight whether you like it or not that's same with this on right like you you just you don't have a lot of choices there yeah very true also real quick i know we mentioned we already talked about you know michael morales sean brady uh we talked about carlos proches obviously mentioned Benoit St. Deney

and I know we talked about Valentina where she sits now. Real quick, I want to mention how good was it for Bo Nicol to go out there and get to win the way he did? I mean, I know I don't think Rodolfo Vieero is like the guy who's going to be like the real test of him striking but to bounce back with a head kick knockout pretty damn impressive. Yeah,

and did it in impressive fashion and you know, I tweeted it there tonight. Bo Nickle is on the progression that we want to see him on. I think the fact that he had a loss is going to make him stronger. I think it's going to make him better, more motivated. And his striking is progressing at a very fast rate, looking really good.

Again, Rodolfo Vieira, you know, I think we all kind of thought that he would be a challenge because we thought Bo Nichols' strength is wrestling. Oh, excuse me, Beau's probably going to take him down. That's where Rodolfo has the best chance. Bo didn't need to take him down at all. I think he took him down once. And his striking looked really. really progressed from where it was before.

I think he still has a lot of work to do. But we start, I think we start, maybe this is what I mean, we started to see the speed of Bo Nicol. We started to see his striking, the pieces starting to come together. We've seen, you know, him do some setups and some variations and some different things. So it's, boy, the sky is the limit.

We knew that from the beginning. It seems like the pieces are starting to fall into place. Let me ask you this, Matt, real quick, before we move on from Bonick, I want to ask you this, because, like, I know some fighters have this and, like, I want to stay as active as possible. I want to fight nine times a year, whatever ridiculous number is. And I think it does work out sometimes, but I also think, like, some guys, like, I think, like, what Kevin Holland's done this show, like, he tried to do six fights in the year, and he had losing a couple of them.

And, like, I think maybe some time off probably would have done him well to, like, let him recover. He's a little older, things like that. but when you're young in your career and I think that you're learning kind of on the job and the experience helps like I kind of like what Gable Steven's doing right now like he won his first fight did the dirty boxing fight he's already booked his next fight in Anthony Pettis's organization like he's going to be he's trying to stay active and get the experience

because that's the one thing you can't duplicate in the gym you cannot duplicate the actual fight experience I'd like to see Bo get a little busier because I think that was a detriment to him where he set out for like six months come back have a fight sit out for six months like until he gets to that top 15 again, which I think they're not going to rush him now after what happened with the Rainier-Daritter fight, let him fight every three months.

Let him get, like, have him fight again in March, maybe he fights on the White House card, then you fight him in August, and you fight him again, like get him four fights next year because that in-cage experience is so invaluable and he just learned so much on the job because I think like his wrestling is going to be top-notch,

his striking is coming along, and I think the only thing he's really missing right now is that cage time, and I don't think six months between fights is doing him any good. I think you'll get active now when you get to that top 15 then you slow down then you're you know then you're slowly kind of progressing working up the rankings and you probably shouldn't be fighting three top 10 guys in a year that's a hard schedule to go by but right now for me I think Bo needs to be more active because I didn't like he sits out for like six seven months and I'm like dude you're so young in your career like get that experience yeah I don't know what his kind of I mean he grinded and wrestling for so long I don't know where his body is I think that that's good that's good that That would be my question with that because, I mean, he wrestled at a very high level. But the fact is, Bo knows how to compete already, right? So that, in terms of that experience, I don't think it makes as big of a difference.

So I think getting the experience in the gym will do him a lot of those favors, right? He can, he's the type, because he's so experienced in actual competition, he knows how to control his emotions. He knows how to work his body, and he knows how to prepare for a fight and deal with the nerves. all that, the actual technical skills of fighting in a cage, I think he can take care of in the gym. And then he'll be ready to express those skills in a cage when the day comes, whether that's a year from now or whether that's six months from now or three months from now. So I think there is two sides to that argument. And I'm not saying that you're wrong. I just think there is a different way to look at it. Yeah, so I don't think there's a right or wrong answer.

I think it's really going to come down to what Beau feels, you know, and I think you'd have to kind of be really interpersonal with that camp to, you know, kind of figure out all the dynamics of that. So I'm not going to say there's a right or a wrong way. I'm just given a different outlook on it. Yeah, real quick, Matt, before we move on and get out of here, I want to ask you, because the one fight we haven't talked about on Saturday night was Dylan Danes versus the entire regime of Kabib de Mogamatov's team

not backstage with Islam. It was like all the cousins and the rest of the teammates and, like, you know, Dylan Danis got into a brawl and he got escorted out. And, like, I guess they didn't arrest him. They just kind of kicked him out. And Dana White said last night, he's banned. He's never coming back. Never going to have me to UFC event again. What do you make a Dylan Danes, Matt?

Because you've been in plenty of crowds and we've seen fights break out between fighters. I always remember Sean Strickland diving over three rows to get to DDP when they had that very ugly thing. So we've seen guys get into this, but it's almost like, like, obviously, I think. Dylan invites it like this is what he wants like he knows he's never going to fight the UFC so this is like the best the biggest press he could get but what do you make him a guy like Dylan Dennis because I don't think Dylan Dennis is like an untalented guy I think he's clearly a talented guy and actually like if he would have stayed active in his fight career after Bellator like he could be like nine or 10 and oh right now but like I don't even know what to

make of him I don't even know like I don't even pay attention to him at this point like I don't know how this guy gets in the news every week for some reason somehow You know, and he got that, they got a big fight with Jake Paul. I'm sure he made money. Like, he keeps just figuring out ways to make money and be relevant in the scene and getting tickets to the UFC down with the fighters. Like, I don't know who the fuck this guy is or what he does or how, like, it doesn't. He's just the, he's just the king troll.

I mean, you got to give him props for that, right? He's one of the greatest trolls of all time. and I mean we've seen him on like Arrawani show recently I mean this guy's just always out there somehow but does nothing

like I've never seen him do anything of no that like like anything to get beat up by Jake Paul is that something it's like I've never seen him do anything

I think did he fight didn't he like fighting Bellator I mean he fought twice in Belator one and then he had that fight misfits against a guy who had never done MMA again, and he subbed him in like 30 seconds. He was like a boxer guy, and he subbed him in like 30

seconds, and now he's like the misfits MMA champion, but you know, what does that really mean in the grand scheme of things? Like, but yeah, it's just and here's the thing, like I've had very, very minimal interaction with Dylan, very, very minimal. He hit me up in a DM

like a year ago. We were kind of chit-chack back and forth because I had report on his lawsuit with Logan Paul's fiancee, that whole thing. and he reached out to me about that. Again, just in the news somehow. Yeah, he reached out to me about that and we should say, I mean, he seemed like a normal enough guy in that interaction, but it's just like, dude, like, because if he really wanted

to be a fighter, like it felt like he could have partly like Khabib jumping over the cage and attacking him after the counterfeit. He could be able to build that into something. He didn't, maybe he just wants to be a professional troll. Like, it just seems like that's what he wants to be. He doesn't actually want to be a professional fighter. He wants to be the guy who gets his name in the news. news for everything else and if that's his if that's his deal more power to you but it just feels

like he's not actually serious about being a fighter he's serious about being like say what you will about Nate Diaz and Nick Diaz did they get into some brawls and do some crazy shit outside the cage sure but no one can negate what they actually did in the cage like they were legit badasses in the real world too they just you don't fuck with the Diaz brothers or you know and chances are they're going to throw it out with you if you do it's like Dylan Danis lives for this like this is what he lives for, not actually competing or winning fights. And I feel like every time this

happens, like he's getting the short end of the stick. Like, he's getting beat up. I see, what was the interview? Yeah, just a short little, I don't know, whether a reel or a short or something, the John Pork guy, is not actual John Pork, but the guy,

his fist were all beat up where he had punched Dylan Dennis. And I was like, he gets beat up everywhere he goes I don't get it man like why does anyone want to see him and yeah he just he's always in the news

you know you got to give him props for that I guess you know I mean if that's what you want but but like I think like because he always said like he wanted to get to the UFC I think last I pretty much nix that like I think Dana is just like why would I want why would I want this guy around like he's just a shitster and like he's like he's done he's never coming back again

Dana didn't have interested in fighting anyways but maybe if he would have done enough maybe you're like oh undeniable you know we got to give you a shot not now like I think you do shit like that where you get a brawl broken out in the middle of the biggest pay-per-view of the year you're probably not going to get an invite

yeah so I don't know where this guy came from or how he's got how all this has worked for him but I guess he's making the living doing it so good for him right yeah uh real quick we get out of here man i want to ask like real quick

a couple of fight picks next weekend we got the guitar car we got below and he and gary and we got armin and dan hooker who you picking in those two fights boy i think it's tough to not go with belal man i think he's uh he comes forward too much he's got too much cardio

um and you know and i've said for a long time i think he and gary is championship material um i think belal is just the wrong matchup for him uh but of course you know, I always have to get myself a little out there. I'm not going to be surprised if he and Gary does it. You know, I have said he's championship material for a long time.

I'm not sure if he has the skills to deal with what Bala is going to bring to the table yet, though. And I don't think too many people are going to be picking Dan Hook. I think Armin Surukin is we know what the game plan is going to be. Dan Hooker knows what the game plan is going to be. And he's got to figure out a way to stop it. Maybe he can find a way to stop it. I don't think on paper, you know, or be, you know, if I were a betting man, I don't think I would be willing to wager money that Dan's going to be able to stop it.

Yeah, I'm with you. I pick Armin as well. And I'm picking Balaw too, but my biggest, and my biggest, it's not to knock on Ian Gary. I agree to you. Ian Gary is an incredible fighter. But I think my biggest worry about Bilal is how do you come back from the championship loss? Because you do see some guys have that hangover where it's like they lost a big fight and they just take some, you know, a little bit to get it back. Yeah. And so

like you wonder, like, is Bilal going to have that hangar from losing a jack? Because like that was his championship moment. He was a chance to, you know, achieve that moment and then, you know, obviously go on to defend his belt a bunch more times, potentially. Didn't happen and he got beat. And listen, I think he'll probably be the first person to tell you. He had a bad game plan. He went there trying to

show his hands instead of wrestling and cost him the title arguably. Like, we would have gone in there and fought a classic Bilal fight. We might be having a totally different conversation right now. And Islam would have been fighting Illiott Lightway. We have no idea. But it happened. and now that's my big that's honestly my biggest concern is like how does below react to that loss like does he come back with that same fire that same energy or you know like he's not going to get the belt now because he won't fight Islam they've already said they won't fight each other like is he still going to be as motivated knowing like even if he's seen gary he's still probably not going to get title shot so you know like is he going to be fired up I agree with you I think bala wins but that's my biggest concern is like where's his head at yeah and that's a huge part of it too right the mental game is such a big part but yeah on paper

I mean I just I don't see how you don't do those two picks and right rolling all the way background I'll close it on this minute I'm sure you'll probably agree with me we talked about when when maga met incalaya lost Alex Pereira it was the worst thing that could have happened to him

and I know afterwards we heard about the rib injury whatever but to go out there and actually he's getting Molly Wad by Alex Pereira no one's mentioning him now like everyone's talking about oh Alex Pereer and John Jones Alex Pere and this Alex Pereer and that Tom Aspinall whatever I think Jack losing was

the worst thing because Jack just doesn't have, like, anything about Ian Gary, like, Ian Gary lost to Shavkat, but like Ian Gary is such a talk and he keeps himself out in the public so much, like, we know he lost, but like you just always are thinking about Ian Gary and he's kind of selling himself. Jack's just not that dude, and you're like, man, like

Jack's going to have a long climb if he's going to get back, especially now, like when you got Michael Morales and Carlos Prochess and the winner of this weekend is by a Blowny and Gary. Jack's going to have a tough time getting back into title condition because he's just not that dude. like he's not going to sell you on himself he's just going to go out and fighting that's that's

admirable i get it but you know as well as i do matt this is not just a sport it's entertainment yeah well you know he's going to be getting a tough fight coming back right because like we've we've said him a hundred times i mean it's a murderous bro um when you coming off of uh win the title he knew he's going to want to get that title back so he's going to want to take the top contender fight and there there's some top contenders in there that he's going to have to with. But, you know, he actually matches up really well, I think, with most of those guys, right? I don't know what Chavcott's return timeline is, but I think that would be a really good matchup. You know, because Chavcott probably needs to, in I don't know, just my opinion,

he needs a fight before he gets a title shot just because he's been out for so long and he's kind of forgotten about at this point. Boy, that would be a great matchup if that return timeline works out right. Do Shavkat or Sean Brady? Give me another grappler. Can he yield a grabber? Because he didn't do it very well with Islam. And so, like, you know, Sean's coming off a loss.

But I like your Shabkat idea. I think that's a better idea. Do Prochess Morales. You do Shavkat, JDM, and then you do Islam Usman. We just, we just fixed the Welterweight division, Matt. There you go. It's some, every now and then, you know, these divisions, they just come together just right. And it's just such a murder's row in the top six, eight, 10.

and we wish we could bring back the tournaments this would be a perfect time to bring back a tournament have all these guys fight in one weekend or one night or something and you know let's see who's a man that could come out on top well I don't want to quantify it Matt but I will say I'll give one final flowers before we get out of here you know I talk about all these double champions

and I think listen you and I have said the double champ thing isn't as impressive as everyone wants to make it out to be especially like I mentioned like eight of the 10 people have won two titles have been since 2016 when Connor did it. Like that's a pretty big number for the last like nine years to then have like all the other years and only have two

which was BJ Penn and Randy Couture. But what impressed me so much about Islam and doing it in my opinion the two toughest divisions. He did a lightweight Welchway. Those are the two toughest divisions in the sport bar none, deepest, darkest, dankest, nastiest divisions of sport.

Lightway and Welchway. You win two titles there? It is special. Absolutely. And like I said, against legitimate champions, too. Not guys at the end of the road or guys coming off, I don't know. It's just very, very good championship runs, man, in both divisions. I mean, I guess the 155 run might be a little,

you could talk a little bit of smack about that, you know, fighting with Conno on short notice and, you know, what, as there was a couple. It just wasn't all that. But, I mean, Jack was a legitimate champion. He worked his way to the top. He beat a lot of top guys. He beat Balal to win the title, absolutely legitimate champion.

And the way that Islam went up and dominate him, you got to give all the respect in the world for that. So, but, you know, I think now is when Islam's, now is when Islam's greatness is really going to be shown. Because now he has a murderer's row in front of him. now is really the it's going to be the culmination of everything that he's put together he had a he's had an amazing streak so far

he's an amazing fighter but but now I mean boy he has a fucking tough road in front of him and I'm excited to see it because I think he's going to do great he beats oosman Shavkat and let's just say Michael Morales we're talking about him in that conversation that's my lord yeah that's that's that's where you're like uh john you might want to watch your back a little bit

jones like you might want to watch just a little bit want to watch your back because Islam's right there knock on the door and like gsp and then you're talking right you either a murder's real like that's what he said before we're like it's not that he's not great but you got to do a little bit more work he knocks out that kind of a murder's road to defend his title holy shit that would be insane yeah i mean there's a perfectly fine argument that he's the the greatest of our generation currently right sure just a matter we like we said last week i mean or a couple weeks ago or whatever uh it's just a time in the game thing now you know he's just got to keep a get a longer street going and uh you know with title defenses right and um because you know you can't compare was a five now to um title fights

to john jones 16 yeah i think it is right i mean that's just it's an unreal number but but you know I do also think that I don't think he needs to get to 16 to match John Jones greatness, right? Like I think we could consider Islam the greatest of all time. If I think we said it before, a four-fight win streak here at the Wellto-Way Division against these killers coming up in this division, the contenders, and he's there. You know, and that'd be what, 10-fight win-street, maybe. You know, he's still six short of John Jones. But I'd be putting him right there probably above. of John, you know, we have a lot to see between now and then, but yeah, I don't think

he has to have as high of a number, but it has to be a higher number than it is now. Yeah, I agree, 100% of it. He doesn't have to get 16, and that would be almost impossible, honestly, to get 60, you're just not going to, there's no time for it's a 16, but, you know, you get to like, you know, four title defensive of lightweight, four title defenses of welterweight. I mean, that's pretty damn impressive. That's eight in two different divisions. like that's pretty incredible and so yeah but i mean i know it's always subjective there's no right or wrong answer but like i said we talk about the hierarchy you talk about you know george san p r nine title defenses anderson 10 title defenses demetrius 11 title defenses john jones undefeated in 16

title fights that's why they're kind of like in their own right now that's why we say Islam's got a little bit of work to do he's in the conversation he's in the door he just got to kind of like work his way up to the ladder a little bit now yeah that's exactly it right he the door's open, and he's just got to take a couple of steps to get through it. 100%. All right, Matt, that is our show. Obviously, we'll be back next week to talk about everything to have as a daytime show in Qatar. I know your favorites.

You don't step up to one in the morning to watch a fight card. So main car is at 1 p.m. Eastern next Saturday. It is a good card, though. I mean, Bilal and Ian Gary and, and, obviously, Armand and Jan Hooker, really, really good card from Qatar. So we'll break down and talk about all that kind of stuff next week. Obviously, I want to say a big thank you to everyone at tunes in the show each and every week. Matt, where can people check you out?

They want to find out what you got going on outside of the podcast. At I'm the Immortal Instagram, Facebook, the Immortal Matt Brown. Check out the creatine, Vitafuel, V-I-T-A-P-H-U-E-L.com. Get fucking Jack. Let's fucking go. There you go. And obviously, a big thank you, everyone that tunes in. Make sure you check us on all your favorite podcast platforms, Apple Podcast, Spotify,

and, of course, over on the best website in the world. MMAFighting.com for Matt Brown. I am Damon Martin. We will see you guys next week for another edition of the Fighter versus the Rider. Thanks for tuning in. We'll see you then. Nothing quite makes a holiday gathering pop like turning on the music. And if you're looking to set the mood, you should check out Sonos.

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