MMA Fighting - Fighter vs. Writer: Matt Brown Defends Dustin Poirier Tapping Out at UFC 269, Gives His Pick for Jake Paul vs. Tyron Woodley 2

Episode Date: December 14, 2021

On episode 16 of The Fighter vs. The Writer, UFC welterweight Matt Brown returns to the show to help break down everything that unfolded at UFC 269 this past Saturday night including Charles Oliveira overcoming the odds and defeating Dustin Poirier to defend his lightweight title. Brown reacts to Oliveira’s performance while also defending Poirier for tapping out to the choke that ended the fight. He will also give his thoughts on Julianna Pena pulling off a massive upset to defeat Amanda Nunes, what’s next for Cody Garbrandt and the appeal surrounding “Suga” Sean O’Malley. The all-time leader for knockouts in UFC welterweight history will also give his thoughts on Jake Paul vs. Tyron Woodley 2 and who he’s picking to win the rematch. Plus, Brown will offer an update on his recovery from COVID-19 as well as his hope to return to action in March when the UFC returns to his hometown of Columbus, Ohio. All this and much more on the latest episode of The Fighter vs. The Writer. Follow Matt Brown @IamTheImmortal Follow Damon Martin @DamonMartin Subscribe: Apple Podcasts Subscribe: Spotify Read More: MMA Fighting Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. Welcome back to another edition of The Fighter versus the writer. I am your host as always. I am Damon Martin and today I am joined by one of the top welterways in the world, a good friend of mine. And of course, one day, hopefully, a full-time podcast host once he actually gets through all this fighting stuff he wants to do. Welcome back Welterweight superstar Matt Brown.

Matt, how are you? I'm great, man. I got to get back on the podcast, bro. I know, right? Like all this fighting stuff you're doing, you know, like, come on. Now, podcast is way more fun. Come on. You know what?

If it was only fighting, I probably would have the time. But with the kids, the gym, the business. Yeah, man. You know, kids. Yeah, that keeps you, that keeps you hopping, I'm sure. Yeah, absolutely. So let me start by asking how you're doing. Of course, a lot of people know you were going to fight a couple of weeks ago.

You had to fight with Brian Barbarina. Unfortunately, you got COVID. You had to drop out of the fight. So just the general question, how are you feeling? How are you doing, you know, coming out of the COVID stuff? I feel good. Just getting the cardio back, just getting back to training now. Yeah, I was really disappointed, man.

I was really excited to fight Brian Barbarina. You know, he's not a big name. Like I'm kind of more used to fighting. He's not someone that when people ask me, who you fighting? I say, Brian Barbarina, they're like, well, never heard of him. Okay. you know so it's not you know it wasn't significant in that aspect um but he's just a his stylistically man what a fun fight you know he's just a banger and um he's willing to engage with you the whole fight

and he's got great cardio and would have been a really exciting matchup i think yeah i agree i agree uh with that being said of course the ufc announced over the weekend that they are officially going back on the road again and they are going to be coming here to Columbus, Ohio, the town you and I both live in, and they are being here March 26, Jan Belhovic, and Alexander Rackich in the main event. Of course, we previously announced Michelle Waterson and Amanda Hebes are going to be on that card.

What about Matt Brown? I mean, Matt Brown is the hometown guy. He's got to be on the Columbus card, right? Like, that's kind of the perfect scenario for you to come back. Yeah, it makes sense, right? I'm trying. I talk to Dana and Sean, and I'm trying to make it happen, man. That's all I can do.

Would that be the ideal, time. I mean, I'm sure in your head you'd like to fight sooner, but, you know, considering that's in March, I mean, would that just be the perfect, it would be worth the weight to fight in March if you get to fight in Columbus? Yeah, it'd be perfect timing for me, man, with the holidays coming up and like we were just talking about with the kids and holidays are a busy time for me. So, you know, three months after that, it would be a perfect time. I'll have a good long camp, be able to get all my ducks in a row and be in really good shape and be able to put on a great performance.

I know you're never a guy. I mean, I know there's been kind of those dream fights out there that you said I'd love to fight this guy one day, that guy one day. But with a card like this, I'm sure fighting in Columbus would be more special than necessarily the opponent. But, you know, would you like to maybe rebook the Barbarina fight? I know recently I talked to Kevin Holland, he's going to be dropping down to Welchewitt. he mentioned you as a guy he said you know listen

Matt's a legend you know absolutely nothing but respect for you he said that'd be a really fun fight a guy I know who got there and bring the fight to me uh anybody in particular you'd like to fight or doesn't matter uh you know I haven't really thought about it to be honest I mean obviously Barbarian was probably the first that came to mind because I thought it would just be rebooked but he just fought last week so I don't know if he'll be ready to fight again Holland is obviously a a tough guy with a good name.

That would be a great fight or anybody else. I mean, I'm not really too picky. I mean, you know me. You know me for a long time, man. I don't really pick and choose. I say put a guy in a cage with me and tell me where to be and I'll be there. Yeah. I love that Holland matchup.

When he mentioned that to me, he was naming off some guys. It would be good for his first fight at Welterweight in the UFC. He said Matt Brown. I was like, it's funny you say that because I was thinking the same thing. Like you guys, and again, just to be clear, like, Kevin was nothing but respectfully, he said you're a legend. You know, he's like, that would just be a great fight. In terms of a guy that would go out there and have the kind of Matt Brown fight we're used

to, I like that. I know I'm playing matchmaker right now, Matt, but I think that'd be a really fun one. Yeah, well, you know, the whole respectful callout thing, I don't really buy into that, man. Like, if you're calling someone out, that's not respectful, period. But, you know, whatever, if he wants to fight, we'll fight. if they put it on, you know, if they give me the call, I'm down. Let's make it happen. Columbus, March 26, let's go.

Yeah, it's got to be. I mean, come on now. Like, you've got to have, you know, you always try to put at least, you know, one or two hometown guys on. And, you know, we know A.J. Dobson has a fight coming up already. He's already scheduled. So, yeah. So, I mean, it would just make perfect sense for you to fight on that card. I mean, you know, like I said, there's just no one else that would make sense for you to fight in Columbus.

You're the Columbus guy. You have a gym in Columbus. I mean, come on. It would just make too much sense. Yeah, and Sean told me, when I first heard about that card, Sean told me that the card was full. So I don't know. It might be too late already.

You know, they don't necessarily announce the fights after, you know, even though they've been booked. So I guess maybe it's already full. Maybe someone could drop off. There's so many things right now, especially with the whole corona thing still going on. You know, people are dropping off all the time for no reason, and, you know, whether it's short notice or whatever.

And so there's lots of opportunities out there, lots of options. Columbus, of course, is the best for me. I can sleep at home and drive downtown and go if I'd come back home and sleep in my own bed. So that'd be pretty cool. Yeah. Yeah, so I'm down for whatever, though. Yeah, absolutely. Well, Matt, beyond your own career, of course,

part of the reason we're talking today on the podcast is to break down everything that happened this past weekend at UFC 269. what a freaking crazy card this was. I mean, everything, everything that everyone, you know, I would say the majority of people thought was going to happen, didn't happen. I mean,

main event, you know, and listen, I, we'll start there with Charles Olivera getting a big win over Dustin Poirier. And, you know, going into it,

I had Benil Daryushan last week. And we said, we both agreed, we said that, you know, it's a, it's a, it's a,

it's a, it's a, it's a, it's leaning towards Dustin. I said, I thought Dustin, his toughness, his durability,

his ability to push the pace and really kind of just continuously chip away guys in that third and fourth round. I thought that would be the difference. And he actually said I leaned towards Charles because he had a better grappling game now. Once again, Benile Darius was right. That's exactly how it played out. His grappling did end up playing a difference. But I don't know, you going into the fight, Matt, like, did you lean one way or the other? Because like I said, I thought it was a Tulsa, but I did lean Porrier.

Yeah. I actually probably lean Porrier maybe 15. 55, 45 or something, you know, or maybe 51, 49, you know, just a, just a hair. Like you said, you know, just, he's just such a dog, man. And if it got to the fourth or fifth rounds, and that was actually what I called. I was talking to my friend the day before, and I said, it's either going to be Oliver in the first two or, or a pourier in the last three. And I guess I hit that one on the nose. I was really, you know, when Porrean started tagging Olivaa in that first round, I was like, this is going to get ugly in a hurry.

Because he was standing in front of Dustin trading shots. And I'm like, this is a recipe for disaster because Dustin has such heavy hands. And Dustin is also got great cardio. And again, he's got heavy hands, but he'll put it on you for three. I mean, look what he did to Justin Gagee when they fought. You had to go into the fourth round to finally get that finish. He will put it on you round after round. And the fact that Olavera was standing in front of him

I was like dude do you got like a death wish here? Like what's going on? But he stuck around. He would not go away. He kept getting in the clinch that that tie clinch was nasty, the knees to the body. And then when he finally started going to his grappling, I was just like, man, like I, listen, it was no disrespect to Charles Olaverer. It's just I'm such a Dostepore believer, man. I'm such a fan of that guy.

I just thought, man, you know, it's just his time. Well, I tell you what, Charles Olaver proved a lot of people wrong on. Saturday night. That's for sure. And I think a lot of people agree exactly with what you were saying. After that first round, you thought this is exactly the fight that Poyne would come in here looking for, and he's getting exactly what he wanted.

And after that first round, I mean, you thought, dude, this is Poyet's type of fight, man. This is going to go his way. And I would bet that the betting odds lean towards Poree after that first round. They even dropped him once, right? Yeah, he clipped him a bunch. Yeah, caught him a bunch of

times. Yeah. Yeah. And, but, But, you know, Oliver was doing smart work, man, going to the body a lot, wearing them down. Like you said, there's knees to the body. And, yeah, I mean, you call it. You said perfectly, man, you can't say enough about Oliver, man, to just dog it out in that first round. You know, we all, I think all of us expected Olivera to kind of play it safe early, right? You know, not gas himself out, not come in banging like that. But he proved everybody wrong, man.

You got to give him mad props. Like, what a soldier, what a fighter, what a skilled guy. It's going to be, man, with all the killers in that division, it's going to be fascinating to watch him fight, man. Yeah, it's so funny. I think we get, and I know I'm guilty of this a little bit, you know, because I've been around. I remember, first time I met Charles, I want to say it was like a UFC on Fox card in Chicago, like, you know, 10 years ago, whatever it was, first time I'd actually met him in person.

Incredibly nice guy, incredibly well-spoken, and always so talented. but I think sometimes in my head I still get lost in like some of those really tough losses he had. Like when he got that step up in competition, he kind of fell apart a little bit. And I don't, I don't necessarily, I mean, I do understand the criticism people had about how he kind of, you know, quit under fire. You know, he kind of wilted under the pressure. And listen, I know that, you know, people are saying that narrative's not true. It was. I mean, it was.

He did have that problem. And he did seem to lose when he took that step up in competition. he would beat Nick Lince, and I'm not taking a knock on Nick Lens. Like, he would beat Nick Lens, but then when he got to Frankie Edgar, he couldn't quite beat him. You know,

when he beat, he'd beat like three other guys, but you get to Donald Saroni, he couldn't quite beat, you know, he couldn't quite get over that hump. And so I'll admit, I was a little stuck in that mindset of thinking he's still that guy. He's not that he's,

I can't believe this is the number one guy in the world. But he is. I mean, you don't go out there and do what he did to Dust of Porreier over over two plus rounds and then choke him out the way he did and fight such a great fight. great fight and shows so much heart and determination. I mean, that is the best light way in the world.

I mean, there's no question about it. In a weird way, I know the UFC, you know, they're moving on beyond Khabib regardless. I mean, he's retired. You can't, you know, sit around and talk about Habib forever. He's not coming back. But in a weird way, I think Charles actually helps the division move forward because he never fought Habib. He doesn't have that, that shadow hanging over him that he just lost the Khabi. He now is beating, you know, he went out there and beat a guy that, you know, that Kibib beat. So I'm like a. I don't have a better way to say it than I'm blown away. I was just blown away by Charles.

Yeah, he's an amazing fighter, man. And, you know, realistically, other than maybe in the Chandler fight, all those questions we had about them just hadn't been answered. So we were all right to feel the way we felt. You know, I think everybody was probably on the same page. Like, if it went into deep waters, Dustin Poirier is going to have a huge advantage because of the questions that we had about Olivera. He proved us wrong now.

Yeah, absolutely. That's what we say. I mean, he showed us all up. Maybe he did a little bit in the Chandler fight. I think he got dropped by Chandler once or twice too, also, right? Yeah, he got dropped that first round pretty hard, but he recovered and, you know, came back and knocked him out in the second. Yeah, so that answers some questions.

And now he's done it twice against, you know, Chandler and Porre. I mean, Jesus Christ. What is this guy got to do? I mean, he's a dog like everybody else. And boy, if he fights Gagy, that's going to be exciting as hell. Oh, my God. Like, when I – dude, I get – I get goosebumps when I think about Gaci fighting anybody. But, like, now, like, I'm even more excited now because seeing the dog come out in Oliva, seeing what he could do against the guy like Dustin Porre, you know, I'm excited about all these fights.

I'm excited to see him against, you know, Gaci. excited to see him against Daryush. I'm excited to see him against, you know, Mokachev. You know, and Oliver has always been an exciting guy, but he's now transcended beyond being the exciting guy. He's now the best guy. You know what I mean? He's not just the exciting. He's the best guy right now.

And I've got to be honest, man. If Connor gets that fight, I would be excited for that fight. I think matchup wise, I mean, I think we know if it goes to the ground, Oliver has a gigantic, there's huge level difference there on the ground. But on

defeat, or that is a very, very intriguing matchup. I agree. I agree. Let me ask one thing that happened after the fight, and I want to, I'm bringing this up only because I'm hoping to have him on the show next week to help me break down. We're going to do some year-in stuff is Michael Chandler, who, of course, fought Charles. And after the fight, he was very critical of Dustin, you know, basically saying, you know, he would never quit.

He would never tap out basically as what he's saying from the choke. He would go out on his shield. He would rather get choked out. You know, he never, and again, he wasn't, like, mean about it, but he's saying that. And, of course, you know, Patricia Pitbull was very critical of that. I'm, I want to get your opinion on this, Matt, because, listen, I've never, I've never understood, I know this sounds like a funny way to say it. I've never understood, like, tap shaming.

That's never made sense to me. Like, that's just part of the sport. Like, like, I don't understand why anyone would criticize a fighter for tapping out. I mean, that's just part of it. I mean, you know, you get caught. I mean, I understand a choke is different than, let's say, an arm bar or a heel hook or something like that. But, like, I think about, like, when they say an arm bar, like, I would rather tap out than watch every ligament and bone in my arm get snapped in a second. I know it chokes different.

But, you know, I mean, I don't understand why there's, like, this separation. Like, you know, it's better to go unconscious than to just tap out. I don't, I don't agree with that. I guess is what I'm saying. I'm right there with you. I don't agree with it either. The fact is, you don't know. you know, you don't know where that choke was at with Poirier.

It's very likely. I mean, I've been choked out before and tapped out to the choke. And every time I ever did, you know, the lights were already shutting out. It's like, you're not getting out of this at this point. You know, you are about to go unconscious. And it's like, so what's the saving grace that go on unconscious? You know, what are you trying to prove? You're not proving anything.

So I think it's kind of pointless. and that's maybe just kind of shallow thinking. Yeah, I mean, I just, like I said, I love Michael, man. Michael's a great fighter. I get, I understand the mentality. I do. Like, I understand the mentality of going out on your shield. Like, I get that.

That's just like when you talk about, like, when a guy gets hit, it gets dropped, and, you know, we complain about, you know, maybe a bad ref stoppage or fire saying, let me go out on my shield. We talked about that with the, by Asifai, with you. Like, let me go out on my shield. Let me, you know, I'm not done. Let me be done. If I'm done, you'll know it.

I understand that. I totally understand that. But I think with submissions, it's just like, I don't, I don't think, I don't think it, I don't think it looks bad that Dustin tapped out. That's just part of the sport. Not at all. We train all the time, man. We get choked out.

We go against high level guys. We know when it's over. And Dustin's not a quitter. He's been, you know, if anybody's been tested, we know that Dustin's, you know, Dustin's at the top of that heap, right? He's not a quitter. He didn't quit. He was done.

the fight, the fight was done. The submission was locked. He wasn't getting out. What's the point? Why go all the way unconscious? I mean, you're not, again, like, what are you trying to prove? You know, you're not proving anything to anybody. Yeah, and let's also remember, I know this is a weird one,

but let's also remember he was in a standing rear naked choke. If he goes unconscious and they fall to the ground, I mean, again, it's a bizarre thing, but he could snap an ACL. I mean, when you're crumbling like that, like when you go unconscious, your body's not reacting. Maybe he goes head first and gets a concussion because he goes head first in the canvas. Maybe he falls and his knee falls out from under.

He snaps an ankle. I mean, these are things that actually happen from a standing submission. You know what I mean? Like, that's a realistic thing that could happen to him right there. Like, again, he was beaten. It's okay. And that's the end of it.

You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. I'm not about the tap shaming. I'm with you on that 100%. So this is ridiculous. Yeah. So now the other big.

fight, the co-main event, of course, was Amanda Nunes and Giuliana Pena. And we talked about being shocked maybe a little bit by the way that Porre Olavera played out. I mean, come on. There was no more shocking moment maybe in this sport in this year, in this past couple of years than watching Giuliana Pena go out there and beat Amanda Nunes the way she did. Um, I mean, unbelievable, unbelievable to go, I don't know, like what, what were your thoughts and that because I was,

I'm not going to say I didn't see it coming because I saw a path to victory for Giuliana, but I saw a path to victory for, you know, a lot of people fighting Amanda. It just didn't mean it didn't happen. But I mean, come on. That was ridiculous. Yeah, that was a little wild. I tell you, I kind of called that one too, man.

Not confident enough that I put my own money on it, but I had a bunch of people text me like, dude, you know, this is a, I think she was like plus 1,000 on some betting lines or some websites and they're like dude should I take this and I said man that's worth taking you know if she was a plus 200 300 I'd be like nah you don't you don't go for that but a plus 1,000 take it all day um so I wasn't quite as shocked but I was more shocked by the way that she did it you know I mean she just in that second round she just dominated her the first round was kind of back and forth a little bit but that second round

she just dominated and with really simple things it looked to me like Amanda wasn't all there yeah I don't want to take nothing away from Juliana she's an amazing fighter and great and everything it just looked to me like something wasn't there with Amanda something was missing maybe it's the new baby maybe it's something in her life

maybe she woke up on the wrong side of the bed. Who fucking knows, man. Like, it's a tough sport. You know, maybe if the fight happened a couple hours before, she would have won. Who knows? But it looked at me more like Amanda just was just kind of going through the motions, I think. Yeah, you know, it's funny you say that because two things I said about Amanda Nunes going back a few shows. I said the one thing that I thought would defeat Amanda Nunes.

outside of a particular opponent was complacency. You know, at what point does she just kind of get like that Anderson Silva attitude where she just kind of gets bored beating people? Like, you know, like I feel like it happened to Anderson. After he had defended a title 10 times, he jumped around weight classes. He had conquered his greatest foes with, you know, chale and two fights and all the things he did. And then he got to Weidman and Wyman was so fired up and so ready.

And Wyman had built himself basically saying, I'm going to be the guy to meet Anderson Silva. and I think Anderson was just kind of like, all right, whatever, you know, and then he went out there and did it. And, you know, of course, that was the coronation and Chris Wybin became champion. But, like, I've said for a long time, I thought complacency would be Amanda's greatest enemy. You know what I mean? Like, can she get up? And listen, I'm not taking anything away from Giuliana.

Juliana, you know, I'll come back to her in a second. But, like, Juliana was two and two in her last four fights. She was kind of just getting the title shot because Amanda being everybody else. I mean, was Giuliana based on credentials? you know what I mean based solely on credentials did juliana deserve a title shot no she was two and two in her last four her one win she was on a one fight win streak over sarah mcmahon by any stretch of the imagination by any metric you want to measure it that's not what you should earn a number one that's not what you should earn a title shot from so i can't help but wonder and then amanda at the end of the first round after she got julian on her back and she's kind of beating her up and she's just kind of like getting out of out of Kimora. She was smiling. She was kind of like looking like. And then I think what changed and what shifted the fight was in the second round when when Juliana started popping her with that jab and Amanda hit her a couple of hard times. So you saw Julianna's face afterwards. She was

the one who looked like she had just been to a war. But Juliana didn't go away. And I think that rattled Amanda because Amanda is so used to going out there and just when she hits you, you go down. When she takes you down, you stay down. Juliana didn't. And I think that. that kind of threw her off a little bit. Yep. I'm right on the same page with you on that. I think we agreed on that. And then as I said,

it was Amanda beat Amanda, it seemed like. But, you know, it's also, I mean, like you said, you know, she's maybe a little bit complacent, even just a hair, just a,

just a little bit complacent, you know, just a little bit too relaxed. Whereas Juliana, I mean, this is the shot of her life, right like this is her entire life her entire legacy to your entire career is on this one moment so she's putting every ounce of energy she has into this and Amanda's kind of like yes and

another person that I'm going to beat up tonight and yeah and that's all it takes man but I still would argue that Amanda's the more skilled fighter and I think in a rematch I think Amanda'll come back and beat her yeah and I think again it all depends on Amanda right like that's what we're really hinging this on. That's what we're, because if she comes back, fired up and ready to go and, you know, motivated all those kind of things, I have a hard time picking against Amanda for anybody. But what we saw on Saturday night, in my opinion, was the old Amanda Nunes came out, you know, the old Amanda Nunes came out, she was a frontrunner. She was a complete front. If she got you, if she came out there

and tore through you in the first round, it was over. You were not going to survive. But if you survived, if you survived that early barrage and you got her tired out, you could beat her. That's what Kazzingano did. that's what a lot of fighters early in Amanda Nadeez's career did. And I think when she hit Giuliana a couple times and Juliana just didn't go down, like she did not go away. She's like, all right, come on, bring it, let's go. I think that was like mentally defeating a little bit to Amanda because Juliana refused to back down,

refused to go away. When her punches landed and Juliana didn't go down, I'm kind of like, okay. And I think we saw the old Amanda come out, not the disciplined, vicious Amanda that is 112 in a row that hadn't been undefeated since 2014, all those kind of things, we saw the old Amanda come out and Juliana feasted on that, you know what I mean?

Yeah, I think that's a good call, man. Like I said, Amanda beat Amanda. But Juliana was there at the right time. You know, she was ready. She was prepared. And if Amanda wasn't at her best and Julian was going to beat her and that's

what happened, right? Most likely. That's what happened. And hopefully we see it a rematch. I want to see a rematch now. I'm really excited. I want to see them go back at it. And I want Juliana to have the chance to prove us all wrong. Because Amanda's got to be fired

up for a rematch, right? She's got to get fired up and prove that that was a fluke. But, you know, it was interesting. I thought after she seemed very content and very accepting of the loss. She wasn't, didn't seem disappointed at all.

which is probably good for her as a human being, as a person, as a, you know, she's not attaching her identity to her being a champion and she's happy with her life no matter what. That's great, no. But you kind of have to to be a champion, right? You have to have, you have to, it has to be that big of a thing. It has to affect you more than that, I think. So it'd be interesting to see if she comes back and has a fire up in her,

that comes out and we see her and Giuliana go out of it again and get Giuliana the chance to prove us all wrong. Absolutely. Absolutely. Let me ask another fight on the main card. And this is a tough one because he's an Ohio guy. But Cody Garbrandt suffered another knockout loss. His flyweight debut, he got knocked out by Kai Kara France.

This was kind of supposed to be a little bit of, you know, Cody 2.0, so to speak, you know, dropping none to flyweight. He looked huge, by the way. He looked like a monster down a flyway. But once again, he got knocked out. And now Cody, since winning the title, since beating Dominant Cruz to become champion, Cody's gone one in five in his last six fights. And he's been knocked out several times along the way. You know, of course, with the fight with Pedro of Munoz, the two fights with Dillishaw,

and now the fight with Caricar France. When they asked Dana at the post-fight press conference, they said, what do you do with Cody now? And, you know, Dana's kind of like, I don't know. I mean, that's a good question. I know it's always difficult to assess in the moment, even a couple days later, like, what do you do with the guy? But I don't, like, I, that's a question that's really difficult to answer because it's so hard to imagine where Cody goes from here. He's won. I mean, it's just, it's unbelievable to me that I thought Cody was going to be a long-reaning bent-to-weight champion.

Like, I thought, man, you go out there and dissect dominant crews the way he did. I was like, it's going to be really, really hard to beat him. him. And then when he got beat by TJ, after almost knocking out TJ early, I was like, he got too emotional. He got way too emotional in that fight. He got caught. But then it happened to get in the second fight. And then it happened with the Pedro Muño's fight. And I'm just like, I don't know. Like, I don't know. Like, I'm not saying Cody needs to retire anything dramatic like that. But, you know, that's a pretty stark contrast from being the best bands wait in the world to go in one in five every your next six fights. And we can't, I mean, he's losing to nothing

be good guys, but one in five is one in five. Man, that's one of the things that makes his sport so brutal, man. You know, this isn't, the difference between this and boxing is if a champion and boxing loses, you're going to see him get a tune-up fight. You're going to see him get his confidence back. He's going to have some pretty easy fights, or at least not necessarily easy fights, but matchups made for him to win. Cody didn't get that, man.

And, you know, he got his confidence taken away, I think, with, after he beat Dominic Cruz, it was what T.J. beat him up, right? And, like you say, he dropped, he almost finished T.J. at the end. So, you know, we're really all thinking, look, Cody's still got it. You know, he just got caught with T.J. And then it happened again the second time. And I just think that's what T.J. That's what Cody needs, man. He needs, you know, I don't want to call him tune up fights, but he needs some guys. guys, someone that's going to match up with him well. Kai Carefranz was certainly not that guy. You know, he needs someone that's going to match up with him well, get his confidence back.

You could call it a tune-up. You call it a warm-up fight, whatever you want. But I think that's what he needs, man. Yeah. It's weird because what also concerns me is the change in weight class. Like, because I think Cody, I mean, he was a champion of Bant's weight. And it's not like he was ever giving up. have a ton of size.

I mean, he just fought Rob Fon. And yes, he lost, but it wasn't like Rob dwarfed him or anything. It wasn't like, you know, Frankie Edgar fighting a lightweight where he was fighting guys, you know, 30 pounds heavier than him. When Frankie was lightweight champion, you know, now, like, could you imagine Frankie staying next to Habib or Dustin? I mean, those guys look, you know, huge compared to Frankie now Fedaway. But, like, when Frankie dropped down after being a champion, it made sense because we all said

Frankie was already doing the impossible by beating the best lightweights of the world when he probably had no business being a lightweight. Like he was never that he was never a lightweight, never a true lightweight. So when he dropped down, we're all kind of like, yeah, this is probably what you should have done. You know, this is where you should have been originally in the fact that you were a champion. Despite all that is incredible. With Cody, it almost felt like, okay, Bantamate's not going my way. Let me try flyweight.

And everyone said he had a good weight cut. you know, he didn't look depleted. He didn't look, you know, on the scale. He didn't look like he was, you know, these ribs were, you know, popping out of his body. Like, he didn't look, you know, he didn't look terrible. But then, again, the results, what matters. And he got knocked out. And it's just like, I don't know, man.

Like, you're right. I think he, I think that would be a great solution for him. But then on the other flip side of that with the UFC is like, you know, he's probably making a lot of money. You know, he's probably making, you know, and are they going to pay him, let's say, 200 grand to go out and fight, you know, the number 15 ranked guy. the unranked, you know what I mean? Like, can they justify that?

And we know, and Matt, you know this as well as anybody, you've been around the UFC for a lot of years. You know, when you price yourself out of a certain point and you're not producing results, there's probably a good chance they're not going to be in business with you anymore. I mean, that's just the reality. Like, I remember years ago, Frank Trigg, who's a good friend of mine, I've known Frank forever,

when he, I think he lost to Matt Sarah, and he got released after that. I think that was the fight. And I said to somebody at the time, I was like, I don't think it's because, because Frank Trigg's a bad fighter. I think it's because he was making, you know, good money at the time. And he was on the prelims, I think.

And I was like, at some point, they're not going to keep paying you the higher-end money and you're fighting lower-ranked guys or on the prelims. Like, there's going to be a breaking point where they're just not going to have me. Now, I'm 100% not saying the UFC is or should release Cody Garber. I believe there's still so much talent there that you can make a comeback. But it is a difficult question to answer. What do you do with him now? Like, do you just resign?

Do you just give up on the VAT? So this is maybe not the top guy anymore and let him build himself back up again? Like, you kind of feel like he has to do that, right? Yeah, that's exactly how I feel. I think he's he's got to work his way back up, man. I mean, it's clear that whatever, whether it's a confidence issue or maybe a skill issue, I don't know. But it's clear that he's now going to compete with the top guys for a couple years.

You know, he's still pretty young. and I think he could, I think he'd be well served to go back to the drawn board, you know, and build his confidence back up. He's got to get some good matchups and start back, you know, not necessarily from the bottom, but start a little mid-level or somewhere. He's got to fight some guys that match up well with them and then build his way back up. You know, they keep putting him up against these contenders and guys that are, you know, top five. I don't know what Kai Kara France was. He's close to the top five, I believe. Yeah.

You know, he's got to step down his level competition for a minute. I think that's all it comes down to and get his confidence back, get him. Because it looks to me, the way he fights, it doesn't look like he has that confidence that he had when he fought Dominant Cruz that he, that he, when he first fought T.J. It doesn't look like that at all to me. You know, he looks very cautious, looking for the big. big shot, one to get that knockout so that he can get out of there. He's not really working through setups and traps and positions. And, you know, it's just, it's going to be a tough road for it, man. Like I said, this is a brutal, brutal sport, man. And the UFC's the most brutal.

And they don't really do the warm-up fight or tune-up fight thing. You know, you don't really see that very much. So I wouldn't be surprised if they do start talking about releasing them. But you know i i do think he still has the potential to be a top five guy yeah i agree i agree uh before we get out of here matt you know also i wonder the thing i want to just mention before we move on to a fight coming up this weekend uh is you know sean o'malley went out there and got a big win uh i remember when we did the old podcast back in the day when i was at fox you were one of the guys like you were kind of even though you know you picked against him and you know i still hold that over your head that I picked Connor to beat Josealdo and you picked Josealdo but that's neither

her nor there. You were one of the early guys who was kind of on the Connor McGregor, you know, saying, hey, this guy's legit. Like, it's funny. He's a, he's a legit guy. I get the appeal. Like, you know, you were, you were an early arrival to the Connor McGregor, you know, almost a fan. But you know what I mean? Like a guy who understood what Connor was doing. Where are you on the Sean O'Malley thing? Like, do you get Sean O'Malley? Do you, do you find him interesting? I don't personally find him that interesting, but I totally get with. he's doing and I I respect it. I love what I wouldn't say I love what he's doing I guess but he's smart man and when he said it the other day I'm in the fight business not the fight game that was a

very fascinating thing that he said he's got a real good head on his shoulders man he's very smart I look at myself as the opposite I'm in the fight game I'm not in the fight business so I understand where he's coming from there and I think it's very smart for him you know, this stuff doesn't last forever. You're not going to be in the UFC for 30 years. This isn't, it can be a career, but for very few. You know, so I don't mind what he's doing, man. And he's got a lot of skills to back it up.

I just, you know, I think just like everybody else, we're ready to see him fight some tough guys, man. We're ready to see him step up in top 15, top 10 guys. And we want to see what he's really about. and you know because when he fought Cheeto who's probably a I'm not sure if he's ranked but he's certainly a top 10 level guy is he ranked right now yeah he is I want to say he's like number 10 or number nine somewhere around there I think yeah after beating Frankie he got ranked right so you know whatever happened in that fight you know maybe that didn't tell us the whole story

maybe it did but that's where all of our question marks are right can he compete with the top guys. What he's doing right now is amazing. It looks great on TV. He's got a great following. He's an interesting guy, he's a smart guy. But we want to see the fight game. We don't want to see the fight business as fans, right? That's what we come to watch. We don't give a fuck about your business stuff. We want to see the fights. We want to see him fight a top guy. We want to see him be tested. Let's see it. Yeah, I agree. I agree. Real quick, before I get you out of here, Matt, of course, one of the reasons why I wanted

to get you on this week is because we actually did the post show when Tyron Woodley fought Jake Paul. I was at the first fight in Cleveland coming out of that. We are going to see the rematch this weekend. Jake Paul versus Tyron Woodley, too. I was originally supposed to be Jake Paul against Tommy Fury. I'm curious, Matt, you know, I know you have, you're a boxing guy, you're a boxing purist, you love boxing, and I learn a lot more about boxing from you than I do from almost anybody because I don't follow boxing nearly as much. But I've said a million times, listen, I don't begrudge Jake Paul. Good for him. Go out and make your money. Do your thing. I'm not, you know, whatever. What do you think about this rematch?

No idea, to be honest. What has Woodley been doing? That's the big question. I think Woodley is a better athlete. I think Woodley should be able to beat him. But can he beat him on a quick notice like this? Was it two weeks? Yeah. Is it two week notice? Two weeks.

Yeah. Yeah, man. Has Woodley been training like that? Because, look, Jake Paul is not a joke. You know, I mean, he's not a, he isn't certainly not a great boxer. I mean, he's not going to be a ranked boxer anytime soon. I don't think. He's not going to be a great pro or anything.

like that. But he's no joke. You know, he hits hard. And he knows how to box. So Woodley better be in shape, better be ready, better have his timing good. And I think if Woodley has all his ducks in a row, I think he should be able come in and beat him. I thought that the first time, too, though, and I was wrong. So it's going to be interesting.

On a short notice like that, I have a lot of questions. I think we said it in the last podcast, Matt, that, you know, in that, you know, in that fight taking nothing away from Jake Paul, but I think we agreed, Tyron Woodley caused Tyron Woodley that fight. He had Jake backing up. He had Jake hurt. He had Jake questioning himself in that fight,

and he just didn't pull the trigger. And, you know, when Tyron Woodley lost, I think we both agreed he had no one to blame but himself. Now, knowing that the way he did, kind of like what he did with the Vicente Lucke fight, where he came out and he's just like, look, if I'm going to lose, I'm just going to lose guns blazing. And guess what?

He almost won that fight. He had Vicente very hurt. Vicente's just an impossibly tough guy and he came back at one. But I was like, you know what? I have zero problem with Tyron losing that way. You know what I mean? He went out on his shield. He went out there and did it.

I have a much bigger problem with Tyrone going out there against Colby Covington when he just looks like he didn't want to be in there. He's just backing up against the cage, not throwing punches, just not doing anything. If Tyron goes out there and attacks and does what Tyron can do, I think Tyron wins this fight. I really believe that. If he goes out there and does what he could do, what he should do, I think Tyron can win this fight and should win this fight. The question becomes, will he do it?

Yeah, that's kind of exactly what I was saying, especially on two weeks notice. Now, that could be a blessing or a curse. If he's in shape, you know, there's been trainings. He's kind of ready for a fight. Then look, two weeks notice could be a good thing for him. He might go, you know, he's not going to have a be burned out from training camp. he's not going to be feeling all that pressure for weeks and weeks at a time.

And that two weeks notice could actually be an advantage. And he's like, you know, now's my time. And only a couple weeks to, you know, deal with all the media and all that stuff. It could be an advantage. If he hasn't been training, if he's been eating Cheetos and laying around, you know, drinking beers and stuff. Yeah, it's tough because he's going to, like you said, He's got to go out there, be the old Tyron, so to speak. He's got to go out there and swing for the fences, man, and try to hit this guy, get in his face, push him around a little bit.

But that's going to require some cardio. That's going to require a lot of energy. Again, Jake Paul is not a joke, man. He's not just some loser, YouTuber trying to get famous here or trying to make some money. I mean, he's a, you know, he's a legit boxer, man. that's going to require a lot of energy out of Tyraim. I think it comes down to does he have the energy and does he have the willpower to go out there and push himself to win this fight?

If he does, I think he wins his fight and I think it's big for him. What's your official pick? You got me. What's your official pick? I'll let you go first. I'm going to swing and go to Tyrant this time. I think he learned his last. from the last fight and he's going to go out there and he's going to because again i think tyron beat

tyrant the last time i'm going to have a load of faith and say tyner gets his gets his revenge all right i'm going to go with jake only because it's short notice and i don't i highly doubt that tyram was training hard enough to be ready for this well there we go um matt is it an eight round fight eight rounds i believe yeah eight rounds though yeah i don't see i don't see i don't see him being ready for eight rounds man like that's a that's a long time to box a guy yeah well thankfully he's not cutting weight at least there's that he's not cutting like 170 that would be a whole other animal it's like you know 190 or whatever this is i think it's one what's the last time 190 195 i think it's right around that same thing so okay yeah yeah i'm gonna go with jake again all right

we'll see who uh we'll see who comes out on this one uh matt it's always a pleasure i know you got a busy day ahead of you thank you so much for doing this as always uh look forward to see you back in action. And like I said, when you quit this whole fighting thing, come back and just do this podcast full time. Come on. I'm down, bro.

You know me. I'm ready. All right, man. We'll talk soon, okay? No, bro. All right, later. There you go. The immortal.

Matt Brown. I want to say a big thank you, of course, to everyone tuning in each week to the fighter versus the writer, of course. Make sure you check us out on all of your favorite podcast platforms,

Apple Podcast, Spotify, and of course over on MMAfighting. com. We'll be back with our year-end edition of the Fighter versus the Writer next week. So thanks for tuning in and we'll see you then.