MMA Fighting - Fighter vs Writer: Matt Brown Doesn’t Buy UFC Changing Fighter Pay Plus is Israel Adesanya in a Do-or-Die Fight?

Episode Date: March 24, 2026

On the latest episode of The Fighter vs. The Writer, UFC legend Matt Brown and Damon Martin react to the news that Nate Diaz signed to fight Mike Perry at the upcoming Ronda Rousey vs. Gina Carano card and if it’s possible missing out on some of these huge matchups has the UFC contemplating a change in fighter pay? Brown doesn’t buy it. Plus we preview UFC Seattle and Israel Adesanya potentially facing a do-or-die situation in his main event against Joe Pyfer plus much more! Subscribe to MMA Fighting Check out our full video catalog Like MMA Fighting on Facebook Follow on Twitter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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And contact Desjardin today. We'd love to talk. Business. You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. Welcome back to the Fighter versus the writer. I'm Damon. He is UFC legend Matt Brown and Matt. We are coming out of a weekend at UFC London where we think Moseph is going to get a title shot, although you never know what that kind of thing working out of.

But he did get a win over Lerow Murphy, so he is the number one container. I hope that's the direction they're going to go into. And of course, this weekend we got U.O.C. Seattle, Israel, Adesanya, making his return against Joe Piper. Kind of a weird bit of matchmaking, but, you know, could be a number. interesting. And of course, we also have Real American Freestyle on Saturday. So we're, you know, kind of amping things up a little bit here. Yeah, and I think you're pretty excited about the RIF this weekend, right? I mean, I'm just going to say right now, it's a better card than the

O.C. Seattle card. It is. Like, Georgia O. Pulas and Arman Suruki in two. Do I think it's going to be like, you know, Kyle Snyder and Akhmat Tazadeinov, which is on the undercard? Do I think it's going to be like that level of wrestling? No, of course not. But the last one ended up with Armin punching him and a brawl broke out and it's just pure mayhem. And then you got Colby Cumberton wrestling Dylan Dennis, of all things. Like, there's no way Dylan Dennis is not going to try to pull a guillotine or an arm bar or something on Colby. It's 1,000% going to happen. And I love the mayhem.

Now, don't get me wrong, there's a couple of good fights on the Seattle card. I think Israel and Assange is always fun to watch. And Macy Barber, Lexra Grasso could be good. There's a couple of fights. But I'm all for mayhem, man. I think R.M. is going to be mayheming. Plus, like, my favorite matches. My favorite matches Kyle Snyder and Akmetazadev.

Like they're rematching and Ahmed has kind of had Kyle's number in their in their past interaction. So I'm really excited for that one. So like I'm being honest. I'm more excited about the RIF card. That's funny, man. Yeah, I guess it depends if you're, you know, into wrestling or into fighting, right? But even if you're not into wrestling, the RIF is great because like you said, it's going to be mayhem. Who knows?

Like this is, it's a real wild card. Like who knows what's going to go down? Who knows? You know, with Dylan Danis. Colby Covington, Giorgio, Armond. I mean, that's a wild matchup. It's too bad that they couldn't do

MMA matches, right? You know, with all those, right? Or maybe a combination of the two or something. You know, I have some fun with it. But, you know, I am pretty wrestling to see how Israel does, though. I mean, I've been a huge fan of Israel's for a long time. Got trained with him a little bit before he was in the UFC.

And then, you know, I hung out with him after he was champion. And he was the same guy. You know what I mean? So that made me a huge fan. And, you know, because there's some guys, like, I trained with them early on, and they became champion later or whatever. And their demeanor changes, you know? And I'm like, bro, like, I'm the same motherfucker, man.

Like, you know what I mean? Like, you can talk to me the same. Like, I ain't no different. And I get it, too, though. I mean, your life is different. And, you know, the people around you're different. I do get it. But, but Israel, you know, I just got to give him props, man.

He was so much the same guy. went out of his way to hang out with me and do some cool things. We went and watched the UFC together. And yeah, he was just a real cool guy. And when we trained together, he helped me with some stuff and taught me a little bit of kickboxing stuff and just a great guy all around. So long story short, I do want to be watching Izzy

and always supporting that guy because he's a top class person. I don't know is the outside of just doing interviews with him, but I can say like all the interviews that are done with him. He's always been incredibly cool to me. Like, you know, always very, very nice guy, very, you know, attentive. Like, he can, like, he never checks out during an interview. Like, he's not like, I don't really want to give him my time or anything like that. He's always been very, very cool. I know his manager really well, Tim Simpson, who's a really, really good dude.

But, yeah, Israel's always been really cool with me. So I, like, got not a bad word to say about him. I don't know him, like, on a super personal level, but like, anytime I've interacted with him, he's always been really cool. and he's still, to my opinion, the second greatest middleweight of all time behind only Anderson Silver. And this is a big one. With him fighting Joe Pfeiffer

and, you know, really see where he's at. I mean, we've had a lot of questions with him in the past few years. So, you know, I think it could tell us a lot about him. I mean, because Piper is not going to be a walkover, you know, which I think, I don't think he'd ever be a walkover,

but a few years ago, I think, you know, Israel would be it a very big favor. on this. And I don't know what the line is here, but it's probably not as big as it would have been a few years ago. I know we use this term because we have to kind of be overstated when we talk about fights, do or die or make or break, that kind of thing. And like, Israel's going to be fine no matter what happens. Like his legacy is submitted. As I said, second greatest middle weight of all time. I have no problem saying that. But he's a couple tough losses. Obviously, he had to drink his fight. Obviously, he got knocked out by Emavov, which Emavov is really good. But he's not even really known for being a big knockout strike. and he knocked out Izzy. So when I say do or die or make a break, I'm not saying like, oh, he's going to lose and retire or lose. He's going to leave the UFC.

I don't think any of that's going to happen unless he wants to. But in terms of like, is he still a top five ranked middleweight? Is he still that dude? Like, I don't know if he'll ever be championed again. He's actually said on the record, like I don't know that really care about that anymore, which is fine. He's been there, done that. He's got, like I said, he's got his legacy submitted.

But you don't want to go out and start just losing fights. And Joe Piper is a good fighter. But Joe Piper is not like a top 10 guy. Hasn't been a top 10 guy. You know, he got beat. I think it was a Jack Hermanson beat him pretty soundly when they fought, you know, and Jack is kind of a, you know, I almost said a journey, but I hate to use that. Sounds like an insult, but like that kind of fringe top 15 guy.

So if he can go out and beat Izzy, it's a huge win for Piper. And we kind of have to be like, where does he go from here? Like what does he have left to prove at this point? Because, you know, Piper is not supposed to be on it. In theory, not supposed to be on his level. So it's an important fight. I'm not going to say do or die. He has to win or retire, anything like that.

But if you're Israel out of Sanya, how much, like, diminishing returns do you continue to take if you lose a fight like this? Like, losing to Amavov, well, that's the number two or three great guy in the world. Exactly, yeah. Lose to Pfe, though, you know, where are we going here? No, that's exactly. And I think, you know, Israel, I don't like that term, do or die necessarily either. But it kind of rings more true in this case, I think, than in most cases. Because I think a lot of times we prematurely say do or die.

And I think, like, we might have said that on Izzy's last fight, right? But here he is again. And, but it might feel a little bit more that way this time. Because I think he doesn't come across to me, like the type of person that's going to keep going if he loses to a guy like Joe Piper. He might, you know, he might try to get some more paydays. But he was, he's one of those guys that I think first, I don't know why he never became even a bigger star than he did. because I kind of thought he had all the star qualities, you know, and the way that he fought and he had the amazing walkouts

and he had good personality and he's a cool guy and all that. I thought he would probably cross over a little bit bigger than he did, but he didn't. So I don't know what kind of draw he's going to be coming off a loss of Joe Piper. You know, I don't know how much of a draw is going to be even fighting Joe Piper. Honestly, I mean, you know, with all due respect to Izzy, you know, again, And he's, I think he was, I think a lot of people watched him because of the amazing dominance, even more so than his personality, which I always found very unique.

And I thought would have a lot more mainstream crossover. And for whatever reason, you know, people cling to the Sean O'Malley type more than the Israel auto-a-sci type where he's like a very, very unique person. So, yeah, so it feels to me a little more do-or-dye-ish because, you know, that's what people want to see from Izzy is the cool knockouts and the spinning stuff and the very, very tricky stand-up and the flash, you know, and I'm not sure what that's going to be like if he loses this fight. I mean, you and I both know, Matt, and I know we've talked about this on the show numerous times, like this sport, this is a cruel sport, and the fall off could be quick. You know what

mean? You can be best in the world, you lose the title fight, and then you lose the next three or four in a row. I mean, that's happened. I don't have, like, a list in front of me, but there's a list of guys and girls who have had that happen where they're like, top of the world, number one in the world, lose the fight, and it's just, like, falling down a ledge. Like, you're just falling off a mountain. And I'm not saying as he's done that.

I mean, like I said, there's no shame in, you know, losing to, you know, losing of Sean Strickland was shocking, but I think that's mostly because we just didn't think Sean Strickland was that dude. He was, and obviously he's still a very good fighter. Lose to Emavov. I don't think that's a bad loss. I think what I didn't see come is him getting knocked out by Amov. And then, you know, losing to Drickus, I mean, Drixus is a former champion.

And, you know, I don't know that fight would have gone that way if this was five years ago versus, like, you know, two years ago. I'm not trying to make excuses of just saying, like, maybe that was the big question, right? That's the hypothetical question that would never be answered. Yeah, and like the M. I don't have a problem with him of him winning, but him knocking out, is him like, oh, it's kind of, you know, kind of worrisome. So, like, that's the reality of this sport, man. You can be on top of the world five minutes later, or 10 minutes later, however you want to quantify it. you're on a four-to-fight losing streak

and people are like, do you need to be in the UFC anymore? Do you need to be fighting anymore? That's the cliff people stand on this sport sometimes. That's like, I don't want to put, is he there? But this is a real measuring stick for him because in theory, Joe Pfeiffer should not beat Israel out of Sonia, in theory.

But that's not the sport we live in. It still feels, and I don't know if this is wrong or right. I'm not saying I know all the insides or anything, but it still feels to me. like Israel Adasanya's last squeeze of juice was when he knocked at Alex Pereira. Yeah. Right? Like that was the mountain and that was the peak.

And after that, it just hasn't felt the same. But that's just what it feels like on the outside looking in, not knowing nothing about his training or his mentality or anything. But it felt like he squeezed all. He emptied the tank on that one. He accomplished it. and maybe that made a maybe that gave him a little bit of contentness in his life or his his legacy as a fighter his career whatever and that's what it feels like on the outside looking in well we know like the old saying we talk about like the uh the money thing

with fighters like when you have so much money like when you're sleeping on silk sheets it's easy to get up and do the run the morning things like that but like if you're in israel out of sonya i don't think it's a money thing but when you've accomplished everything you want to accomplish or you've been a champion, you are at worst, the second best middleweight ever. Like, you know, and even, I think he would probably defer to Anderson Silva just because of the title defenses and everything he did.

He avenged the loss to Alex Pereira. That was one that was hanging over his head from the kickboxing world. He got knocked out in their first fight, comes back and actually brutally knocks him out in their rematch. You know, he has a win over Anderson Silva. He has wins over all the other guys, you know what I mean? Like of that era, like he beat everybody.

Yo-Ramara. Wasn't a great fight, but he beat Y'O. Romero. He has a lot of quality wins. and then like that exclamation point was the Alex Pereira revenge. Like he avenged that loss now it's almost like, like, is he just like playing with house money and it's just not the same fire, the same determining? Did that fill the cup? Yeah, did that like did that fulfill everything you wanted?

Yeah, did that, like did that fulfill everything you wanted? Because in a lot of ways I'd say, yeah, it probably did. Like that's the one that was hanging over six. You had two lost to him in kickboxing. He knocked you out in your first UFC fight. That's three in a row. And everyone's like, oh, Alex is a dude. And you go out and avenge that lost.

one of the greatest knockouts ever, by the way, and the cool post-fight celebration, iconic. How do you come back from that? You know what I mean? How do you, like, say motivated? Like, I think that's what happened in the Strickland fight. I'm not taking anything away from Sean Strickland, but, like, I don't think he was,

he's like, oh, Sean Strickland, I'll beat him. And then Strickland came out and said, no, the fuck you won't, and beat him. I just, like, I think that's kind of where my head is. Like, like, I was talking about, like, empty in the cup or squeezing all the juice. I mean, there's only so much energy a person has in their lifetime to give to something, right?

and he might have been again i don't want to i don't want to assume anything you know i mean because i don't want to last person i would want to install as israeli to sign and i think he's you know i look up to him a lot but you know did he was he running on fumes after that right again he emptied it all squeezed all the juice however you want to say it and and then he's he's running on fumes after that right and just like searching for motivation now you know I mean like like like because on that way up that's why they say it's easier to get to the title than it is to hold it right because on the way up I mean it's easy to find motivation every day you're like I got this mountain to climb I'm fucking going and then you get it and you're like oh

this is it the next mountain you know is so much higher it's like can you pull that out of yourself again you know can you keep pulling that out of yourself all that energy and motivation and desire. And I think that's why it's harder to, you know, be a long-standing champion that is to get up there. And that's, again, just what it feels like for me, for Izzy. And when you talk about the money part, you know, just to touch on that real quick was, look,

I don't necessarily agree with that. Like, I think, guys, you know, there is an aspect of, like, you know, when you make enough money, you might get comfortable. I do think there's those type of people out there. but I also think there's the internally driven people. The highest level people, the highest most successful people, the money isn't what fulfills them.

It's the competition or it's the, you know, whatever passion that they're going. There's something else beyond just the money. And I've talked about this many times. I've said, like, Connor's not coming back because of the money. But that's a completely different situation. I believe he still has the desire to fight and compete. He still has the energy and, you know, I think he could probably get sober long enough to actually put together training camp in all this, right? But when you look at it from an ROI perspective, that's the issue with someone like him.

You know, that's why guys like Floyd Mayweather who are making 100 mil fight and have hundreds of millions already in the bank, they can still come fight again because, you know, they're driven by these other things. It's not just the money part. that's why a guy like LeBron James can keep playing, you know, and keep driving hard. It's like he doesn't need the money. His great, great grandkids aren't going to need the money. They're taken care of by what he's doing right now. But there's something more than that. And it's not just the money.

And, you know, I guess we probably won't get too deep into it. But, you know, there seems to be, you know, with this whole, like the John Jones situation right now, the Connor Ben thing and all this. There's some people, like John Jones is not finding the motivation for low, I think, or I think, you know, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the ROI, he's not finding the ROI, but he has the motivation. I think, you know, John, I think is a, a loose cannon in his head, right?

Like, like, he's a, he's a fucking warrior through and through, you know, and I, I, I don't think, uh, his life is really going to feel good if he's not competing. Like, I think he's, he needs that. he's got some demons, right? I think we all know that competing is what feeds, is what keeps him going. But he's not going to do it for, you know, the wrong price. So, you know, I just put that out there.

And I think we're getting a lot of, I don't know, a lot of, I wouldn't even say backlash, but there's a lot of people speaking up about this these days, it seems like more so than even in the past, like, you know, when the Reebok deal happened, a lot of people spoke up and said this and this and that. It feels a little different now. I don't know if that's just me.

Well. Getting ready for a game means being ready for anything. Like packing a spare stick. I like to be prepared. That's why I remember 988 Canada's suicide crisis helpline. It's good to know just in case. Anyone can call or text for free confidential support from a train responder any time. 988 suicide crisis helpline is funded.

by the government in Canada. What's up everybody? It's Cam Hayward, your Steelers captain and host of not just football. And this week, we brought on the legend. Lil Wayne is in the building. Greatest rapper alive,

certified football head, and now running his own sports agency, Young Money Sports. We got to know how it started, what the vision is, and how Travis Hunter ended up choosing Young Money. We went deep in the football,

the Packers, the draft coming to Pittsburgh, NIL, and what it really takes to build an athlete's brand from the ground up. We talked music, the Carter 6, what's coming next, and stories you have never heard before. And we got into his legacy, New Orleans, cash money at 11 years old, and 25 years at the top, and what still drives him. This one is different. This one is special.

In Pittsburgh, the draft is coming home. Grab your ticket for Cam Hayward's draft party on April 23rd at not just football.com. And use code Mr. Carter, that is M-R-C-C-R-T-E-R for a pre-sale discount. and follow us on socials. Let's get it. I want to bring this up anyways because just as a matter of bad time, we recorded the show last week and like a day later, they announced that Nate Diaz is fighting Mike Perry on that Gina Corona.

Ronda Rousey card. Now you can look at it one way and say, well, Nate Diaz hasn't fought MMA since 2022 and Mike Perry hasn't fought MMA since 2021. One has been doing barrennock, one has been doing boxing. But no one can doubt the star power. Mike Perry has built himself into becoming a household name through BKFC, and Nate Diaz has been a household name since he's,

tapped out Connor McGregor in 2016. You could argue he was the name before that, but Tapping-O-O-Connor made him like a household named him a superstar. And Dana last night during the UFC London Postal Presser said, yeah, I met with Nate two weeks ago. We talked because there were rumors maybe they're going to try to do the trilogy with Connor, which, let's be honest, that would be a massive, massive fight, and kind of makes sense because, you know, Nate's not really been fighting.

Connor hasn't fought in five years. Would kind of make sense for that fight. But he said, you know, whatever. And he's like, you know, I think he got an offer he can't refuse. And last night, Joe Rogan was saying, I heard he got paid more 10, million dollars. I don't know how much more, but that's what we said, more than 10 million dollars. And I know Mike Perry said publicly, biggest payday his career. I don't know what that is. Now, here's my question, Matt, because John Jones came out and said, they offered

him $15 million to fight at the White House. And he's like, I was willing to come down from the $30 million for the Tom Aspenol fight, but I still felt like I was worth more than 15. They didn't want to budge on the 15. We know that Ronda Rousey went there and said, hey, pay us to do the Gina Corona fight. They didn't want to pay her. They went over and now they're doing it. Rhonda is still taking name. She'd ripped Hunter Campbell the other day on Twitter. Mike Perry and A. Diaz. And listen, I get the idea of what Dana says.

Like, we only put on the best versus the best. I get that theory. I get it. But like it or not, name value matters. Like, Terrence Crawford, Canelo Alvarez is an incredibly amazing boxing match. Was Canello maybe a little past his prime? Sure, but still a top guy. And, obviously, and Terence Crawford's going up, whatever,

four-weight classes, three-weight class, whatever. He was getting a lot of size to a legit, you know, a bigger guy. And that was like, in terms of boxing, that was like peak, right? But Mike Tyson, Jake Paul crushed it in terms of numbers. Now, you can sit there and say, well, that was a side show, but a hundred and so-od million people tuned in for the side show, 40 million tuned in to watch Terrence Crawford and Canella Lover's. You say, well, that's 40 million. It's a lot.

60 million more people watched Tyson versus Jake Paul. So name values still matter. So here's my question, Matt. Is the UFC reaching a bit of a breaking point in terms of like they're, like, it feels like they are very like static? on how much they're willing to pay certain fighters. Like, if Nate Diaz, let's just make, I'm making this number up. Let's just say Nate Diaz is getting $15 million to fight Mike Perry. Now, that sounds like a ridiculous amount of money.

But Jake Paul's not paying that. Netflix is. And Netflix has more money than God. Like, they are insanely huge. They got plenty of money to do whatever they want with. Are we reaching a breaking boy? Because, like, let me just throw us to you about. Like, we talked about the White House card.

It's not a bad card. It's just not what they promised. But imagine if the White House card was Ronda Rousey versus Gina Carrano, Ilya Tuporia versus Justin Gagey, Cyril Gond versus Alex Pereira, and Mike Perry versus Nate Diaz. You get two real legit title fights in there and you get two kind of, little sideshowed, big name value or whatever. That's a great card. Tell me people would not have, like, jumped out of their seats for a card like that. But it comes down to money. And I think I told you when we talked about the Conrubin situation, I said, I have very, I'm very,

I'm very skeptical that fighters are going to start just suddenly standing up for themselves for money because I thought they do it in 26. I thought they do it when the discovery came over in the antitrust lawsuit. We saw much. And then with the sale, oh, they paid $4 billion. Everyone got mad for about six months and then it just kind of went away again. The fact that Netflix is getting involved. Now, I don't know how long they're going to stick around, but they have been putting money into it. I can't help but wonder, like, is there going to be a breaking point where, you know, Ari Emanuel and Mark Shapiro, whoever it is at TK.

is going to be like, we had to loosen the purse strings. Like, we got, like, imagine how big Connor and Nate Diaz would have been for them. Like, that's a massive, I know they got to pay Connor, and I've heard those negotiations are going well. I don't know what that's going to equal out to. But imagine, like, that's a massive, massive fight. And they didn't do it because they didn't want to pay Nate $15 million or whatever the number is. So I don't know. Are we, like, it feels like I was very skeptical before, but I kind of started to think,

like, maybe we are reaching a bit of a breaking point when it comes, like, they're going to have to start, like, loosen the purse strings of what they're willing to pay. I would start with saying no. No. We are not at a breaking point. The UFC is still the powerhouse. And look, people like me and you might sit here and talk about how, yeah, maybe it's not the best fighting the best. It's not John Jones versus Aspinall or I don't know.

I don't even know whatever best versus best would be because UFC has all the best other than that that I can think of. At Ghana, right? It's not Ingano versus Jones, right? 99.9% of people have no idea who the best even is. Like most people don't even care, are never even going to talk about Francis Ingano. And John Jones is kind of old news now, right? They got new stars to replace them.

Could it get to a breaking point is the question. And when people like John Jones stand up and say, I'm not going to fight for 15 million? that's when I think, you know, the ball can roll a little bit. But I think it's more like nudging the ball more than even rolling, right? And I'm on John Jones side on this. And, you know, there's been enough things I haven't been on John Jones side about. But look, I think from his point of view, he's looking at like, okay, you're paying Connor Ben $15 million,

who's a mid-boxer right now. I mean, he might be a great champion of the future, whatever, but he hasn't had those title shots or, you know, He hasn't even had those opportunities yet. I mean, he's got one good win on his record over Eubank, I think is probably his best win, right? John Joe's like, bitch, I got 15 title defenses. I think it's 15, right? Am I right on that?

Ridiculous number. I think it's like 15 or 16 or something like that. Yeah, he's like, I'm the greatest fucking champion at UFC history, bitch. Like, why am I getting the same amount as this guy? Like, everybody knows who John Jones is versus Connor Ben, right? I mean, if you go to, you know, the fucking McDonald's down. the street and talk to some old guy drinking coffee in the McDonald's and you mentioned John Jones and you mentioned Connor Ben.

I mean, the likelihood of him recognizing John Jones is way higher than him recognizing a Connor Ben name, right? So I get where John's coming from on that situation. But again, when you say breaking point, I don't think it's at a breaking point. And I think the UFC, the way or TKO or Endeavor, however you want to phrase it, you know, they're like, look, we're putting out cards and people are going to watch them because we're the UFC. And I think that that's true. I think everybody's going to watch the White House card and everybody's going to watch Rousie

Carano. And yeah, probably more people will watch Rousie Carano because it's on Netflix, not because it's Rousie Carano, right? Because it's on Netflix. And it's going to be, but the White House card is still going to be the biggest card, most watch card that they've ever had. I believe that thoroughly right now. It's going to be the most watch card they've ever had with or without John Jones, with or without Connor McGregor,

honestly, with or without Alex and Ilya. Right? Like, what do you do? You know, like, they are the powerhouse. You know what I mean? Like, I mean, you can go ahead and, you know, I don't have much more to say about that,

but like they are the, they're the fucking, top of the world everybody else is is is fighting for scraps way at the bottom like there's not even a fucking close second and netflix doing again net now Netflix they could invest the money and potentially do things to potentially you know make a dent at some point potentially right there's like a lot of potentials there right but dude like you're talking about like David versus Glyath here, man. Yeah, I guess I mean in the story, David beats it. But, you know, like, this is a this is a fucking monster, man. I don't think that just putting on fights with big names is going to

is going to sway people from wanting to see the best. And when UFC says these are the best, people believe them, right? Again, me and you may not be on that same page. Me and you might sit here and be like, that's not the best, you know, it's not Jones and Ghana. are you going to tell me when you go to the bar and you watch the fights and and the UFC puts out the promo and everybody's watching you know the pre-fight promo and they're like oh these motherfuckers are the best you know like don't tell me that just engaging and patty pimlin aren't the best two to be fighting for an interim title i got to see this these are the best too yeah you know when you say that i mean you're absolutely right in terms of like the ufc is the

powerhouse. The one thing I do agree with here is like Luke Thomas brought this up on Twitter and I kind of backed them up on this when they said like, could Netflix become a serious player because they have all the money and they do. And because remember, their business is not boxing or MMA. That's not their only business. Like they're in the winning Academy Awards,

winning Emmys, putting on, you know, they got a million original shows. You know, their business is much bigger than sports. You know, but like when they signed a deal with the NFL to pay like a billion dollars for two games, you know, that's like a change we found. We found our couch cushion because that's how much money they make.

That's the difference when like affliction came along and they were paying ridiculous amounts of money to pay like Tim Sylvie versus Fador and they ran out of money after two events because it's just not sustainable. Netflix can do that because they're just like we need to bring in new subscribers and we need to retain

our current subscribers and we need to give them these kind of big one-off events to kind of keep them interested and I'm sure somewhere deep in the bowels of Netflix with their accounts they figured out that like we put on Tyson Paul, we get I don't know. I'm making up.

And they're 50,000 new signups or 100,000 new signups. And of those 100,000, 80,000 stay on for a year. They do the calculations of what that subscription is going to be and the advertising. Okay, now this is worth it to us. And they've said numerous times, that's why they said, like, when they were trying to get the UFC, they were just trying to get the pay-per-views. They were just trying to get the big cards. They did not want 19,000 fight night cards on Netflix.

They just wanted one big card a month, which is why they're doing Tyson Fury and the Russian guy he's fighting. Or they're doing, you know, whatever. they're doing the Brousy Corano card. I think that is slightly different than other competitors that have kind of gone up against the O.C. Because Netflix can do it. They can afford to do it. They're not going to like, this is a drop in the bucket to them to pay for this. But here's the thing that's different.

This is what Luke brought up. He's like, you got to remember, they're not building anything. Like they're not starting Netflix MMA. They're not starting MVP MMA. They're paying for Rousy, Carano, Mike Perry, Nate Diax. you know, Francis and Ghanu, Philippe Lins, whatever else they do, they're putting out, you know, they've afforded the card, I don't know, $50 million and MVP's divvying it up amongst all the fighters to build the card.

But Netflix isn't going to start signing prospects that should have gone to the contenders series, should have gone to the ultimate fighter. Right. They're taking, you know, ingrained stars. Like, where did Bronda become a star? Well, the UFC. Where did Neaphn do Yves become a star? UFC, where did Mike Perry become a star?

BKFC definitely played a partner. I don't want to take that away from them. But like everyone is built from other places And they're just putting on the big fights They're not signing prospects And saying let's put on an ultimate fighter show And we're going to do a contender series

They're not doing any of that They're worried about these big So Netflix could make a dent In terms of What Rousy Corona do It's going to get ridiculous numbers I don't know what it's going to do I don't want to make a prediction

But it's going to get a lot Because they got 325 million subscribers People are going to tune in by accident and watch that Just like they did you know, I mean, every event they've done has done pretty gargantuan numbers because they just have more subscribers. And a month later,

the UFC on White House is going to do great numbers. Probably not what Rousie Krona is going to do. And they can hold that over them and say, look what we did. We crushed the White House card. You did. But what's next? Yeah.

You know, like Rousie wins. Are you going to book her against Holly Holme? Because that's literally the only other option out there. I don't know that she didn't want to do that. But okay, so let's just say Rousie. back for one fight. Well, her and Carrano are gone. You're going to build an entire card around Nate Diaz and who? Or Mike Perry and who? Or Francis and God? Like, they're already kind of, no offense to Philippe Lins, they're already kind of scraping the bottom of the barrel to get

Francis and Gano an opponent for this card. So they're not building anything. They're just building this one big card. Now, can Jake Paul and Nekisa and them, can they be like, look what we did. We crushed the White House? Yeah, they can, they can celebrate that all day, and they should. They probably should. But they're not building anything. And this was my skepticism with the whole Connor Ben thing was it's a flash in time Connor Ben's going to fight on that Fury card he's going to have his one fight and maybe he fucks off we don't hear from him again and they're not going to pay him another 15 million they wanted they wanted to fuck Eddie Hearn and they did and Eddie Hearn's like I'm going to sign

Tom Aspin so it's like that's what they're doing right now but they sign Connerbin yes everyone got up in up in a up in a everyone got up in arms about a 15 million that's ridiculous he's not even a star which he's not maybe maybe in the UK but not over here like people don't he know who Connerman is. Sounds ridiculous, and you can tell them all day, they're not paying the bill. It's turkey ala shakes paying the bill. It doesn't matter to the fighters.

I see 15 million. But over time, is it going to stick around? After the rousy chronic card, are people still going to be as mad? Or people still going to be like, oh, look what they got paid. Or we get the salaries from California. Like, oh, my God, look what they got paid. But six months later, people still going to be talking about?

I don't know. I mean, right now, right now everyone's talking, but I don't know if it's going to last. Yeah, we don't know the plans with it, right? And until something like, you know, it's interesting to see how it plays out though, right? Because, you know, what is, okay, like, you know, maybe, you know, Netflix gives Jake Paul this chance to, let's see what happens, right? But then it blows out, you know, the White House car, maybe they get 100,000 new subscribers, whatever it happens. Do they come back to Jake Paul and say, okay, yeah, let's build something?

You know, like here's a budget. Let's build something. Or do they say, let's keep doing these one-off events. And potentially even maybe what they build is something for ex-UFC fighters to go do big fights on. And, you know, maybe that's the game plan, right? I don't know what the game plan is. I don't think you know what it is. They haven't really publicly said anything about what it is.

And I would think, you know, I don't know. I could be way off base here, but I would think, like, if you wanted to build something with a promotion and actually compete with the UFC, your best chance,

if you're Netflix, is going to be one championship, right? Because they could, I'm sure they could use more Asian subscribers and they're big in Asia. And they have a unique product that's not a direct competition

with the UFC. Now, it's, obviously, there is some competition there with the UFC, but it's not as direct. And it has, has a lot of growth potential, right? I mean, you know, between just the moiety kickboxing and, you know,

then trying to get over to the States, like Netflix is the type that could bring them over here. And I know they've also been with Prime Video, which, you know, is probably, I think is expiring within next year or two and it probably isn't looking too good to get re-uped on that. So, you know, maybe that's a bad use case there that they, but whatever. I mean, that's kind of neither here nor there. Again, my point is we just, we don't know what Netflix is wanting to build here. And that's, you know, we're just speculating until then, right? And for them to to kind of poke, like for Rousey, for instance, to kind of poke at the UFC with this, isn't really doing anybody anything, right?

It's just, which we talked about that last week, about her intentions and motivations. and it's not really, I don't think he's strike any cords anywhere. You know, nobody's like, fuck yeah, Rousie, let's go. You know, we got your back, girl. I'm not hearing any of that kind of language anywhere. I mean, we're all, I think we're all guilty at some point to be in prison of the moment, right?

Like right now it's like, wow, like you could look on paper and say, Rousie Carrano and Mike Perry, Nate Diaz, those two fights alone probably going to crush, like, in terms of, like, fan interests. Like, that's two really, really good fights. That made me want to watch, like, I didn't really, again, I probably would watch, but when it came to Rousie Carrano and Francis and Philippe,

I was like, yeah, like if it's on my TV downstairs, you know, my kids turn it on as I watch, but I'm not going out my goddamn way to watch it. Now you got Nate Diaz and Mike Perry, I'm like, you know, I kind of like to see that one. You know, that could go a lot of ways. It could be fun. And I said, you know, because I said this on Twitter,

I was like, because, like, let's be honest, Rousy Corona could be quite bad or it could be over quite fast. Like, that's kind of roused his thing. Yeah, it could get a lot of ways. But, and so could Inganu. And Inganu could torch Philippine's in 14 seconds. We're talking about a main event and a co-main event that lasts a total of a minute.

Probably not a great thing to keep people in tune. But Nate Diaz, Mike Perry, like, I'm actually intrigued. That's actually a fun fight. I've heard Mohammed Mikhail is going to be on that card. He's obviously a very good prospect out of the other than bring. They're building. And I know Jason Jackson is going to fight Lorenz Larkin, which is a pretty decent fight. You know, so they're building, you know.

Yeah. And when you see fights like, hey, you're like, okay, are you trying to build something here? Because McAyev is a legit world-class guy. I mean, he's a world-class fighter. Lorenz Larkin world-class. I don't know where he's at these days. It's been a while since he's fought in the UFC. But, you know, again, it's kind of another ex-UFC guy.

But, yeah, that kind of raises the question, right? Are they trying to build something with these guys? Yeah. But here's the thing. And, like, I started the conversation, like, are we reaching a breaking point? And then as I think more about it, I'm like, well, I feel like, this is prisoner of the moment. We're talking about one card. Yeah, it's not a breaking point.

Yeah, because this card's going to happen. It's going to crush. I know it's going to crush. I'm telling you right now it's going to crush. Like, it's going to do big numbers. And, yeah, probably a month later, they're still going to be the White House card just because sheer volume of subscribers. But then in July, Connor comes back, hypothetically. I know your opinion on that.

But I just say, Con, the attention is going to shift all the way. They're not going to be talking about Rowsy anymore. They're going to be talking about Connor coming back or, you know, whatever. They're doing at that point because the EOC machine's going to. going to keep turning. That's why, like, the one thing I did note is last night, like, when they asked Dana about Nate, he didn't get upset. He's like, oh, yeah, like I talked to Nate, like two weeks ago, we talked, you know, and I think he got an offer he couldn't refuse. And maybe they're just not willing to pay Nate D.S. $15 million to fight Mike Perry. I don't know. Maybe they go higher

for the Connor. I have no idea. But he didn't seem bothered by it. And you can't help but wonder, just like, this was my skepticism with the whole Conner Ben thing, because I think we were kind of little reversed on that one where you were like, I think people are getting pretty anger. I'm like, I don't think it matters because like everyone, the USC sold for $4 billion. Everyone's like, hold on now. Four billion dollars for about six months. There's a lot of people being like,

this is bullshit. We should be making more money. It just kind of went away. Well, yeah, that, I mean, and I agree with you on that. Does it actually matter is the question, right? And it just, the only reason I brought that up was like when John Jones, that situation.

Right. Because that could matter, right? People want to see John Jones fight. And he has a loud voice. and, you know, people listen when he talks. But then I'm sure you heard Alex Pereira talk the other day. He said he signed a new eight-fight deal and making more money he's ever made, and he loves the UFC, and they took really good care of him.

He's happier than he could ever be. Now, I have no idea what he's getting paid. I have to assume it's multiple millions. I have no idea, but Alex is a good name and obviously an incredible fighter. He signed an eight-fight deal, which is a lot. You know what I mean? He's like, this is probably my last contract. I would imagine he's 38.

But, like, he's happy. Now, I have no idea what happy to Alex Pereer means versus is happy to John Jones. But he's happy. Now, can I question it? If it comes out that he's making $5 million in fights and he's making 10, but how am I supposed to tell Alice Prairie

should be unhappy? If he's happy with $5 million, how am I going to tell him not to be happy with that? That's his business. He can be happy with that. So, like, you got a guy like that coming out and saying, I just did an eight-fight deal. I'm happy.

I'm completely satisfied with U.S.T. taking really good care of me. And they're planning long-term. They know there's no long-term of John Jones. John Jones is maybe one fight and done, you know? And I still, and I still, And I still think it's worth paying him to $30 million to do the Alex Prairie fight or do the Tom Aspenol fight. I would still pay him for that, even if it's one fight.

But then being honestly, like it or not, like John Jones is the greatest ball time, but Connor McGregor is a bigger star. I don't think he went to now. They'll pay Connor 40 million because they're going to get a return on investment with Connor McGregor, even if it's one fight and he breaks his leg again, he never fights again. They just know that one fight with Connor's going to work out. But maybe that's just the UFC's plan. We're going to invest in Hamzot.

We're going to invest in Alex. We're going to invest in Ilya. We're going to pay them a shit ton of money and keep them under four, five, six-fight contracts forever, because those are the future of the sport. We're not worried about a one-time rousy Carano card where they're going to fight one time and never fight again. So, like, all this, we're going to talk nonstop about this up until May 16th when the fights happened. And then afterwards, we're going to talk to how shitty the card was. I have no idea.

But the issue is just like, we're going to keep rolling, man. Like, we're going to have a big card in July. We're going to have a big card in August, big card. So maybe you're right. Like, I don't, maybe they just don't care. Well, I mean, it only comes down to one thing. It's very simple. They're like, there's no open market to actually compete to see what your actual price is.

The UFC sets the market, you know. And if they don't want to give Alex Pereira enough to make him happy, what's he going to do? Right? So, you know, however much he was making before, they just say, well, we're going to give you this now. Oh, shit. Well, that's a lot more than before. I'm happy.

Is that his actual open market value, which there is no open market? But if there was, you know, and that's like a difference between, you know, if he was an open market, like a boxing, you know, and he could go to, you know, say Bob Aram or Eddie Hearn or somebody. And I'm like, look, you know, you get, you know, $50 million. Like, I can almost guarantee you the UFC's not given. him $50 million, right? And probably what he is getting, it would probably be trump changing. He's like, I can't, you can't believe you would insult me with that offer. But based off of the market that the UFC has created, he can obviously, you know,

he can say that he's very happy with it. So, and I think that's where John Jones is just looking at it differently. He's like, this is what I deserve because maybe he's looking at it, like, look, this is, I know what you guys are bringing in. I know what I'm bringing to the company. I know the value I'm bringing. This is where I think Connor McGregor said is. This is what I'm bringing to the company.

What are you going to give me for it? And again, with the UFC setting the price and with no open market to compete against them for that price, then you're stuck with what the UFC says. And, you know, and again, if John Jones and Connor McGregor never fight again, the UFC's brand is too powerful. It doesn't matter whether they actually fight again. like these got the ufc's gonna that train's gonna fucking roll buddy right it ain't going nowhere yfc train is a non-stop it's gonna go um maybe or maybe not that there'll be new stars to arise they i don't i don't know how much they actually care anymore about new stars coming up like they

they're so entrenched in the market now you know thanks to guys like connor and ronda and john and and these people. Like, do they actually care to build another new star that big and powerful? I don't think they do. I mean, I think they have one in Ilya. I think Ilya is legitimately right there because he's obviously what he does overseas. And he's not Connor, of course, but he's, you know, becoming a pretty big star. But obviously, they have faith in him.

And I'm sure they signed him to a new deal to do the White House card. You probably paid him a shit ton of money. And they're going to continue to pay him a shit ton of money. And I saw, I don't want to, I don't want to, I don't want to misquote him, but I saw Josh Barnett talking to somebody on Twitter about this year. They told about how fighters are underpaid. And he's like, more or less was like, I know all fighters are underpaid. Which you really have to focus on are the guys at the top.

Because those are the guys who are going to command the most money. And those are where you consider they're getting underpaid where a guy like John Jones is like, how am I getting $15 million? And I'm 10 times the fighter, 10 times is accomplished, 10 times the star of Conner Ben. So why aren't you paying me $30, $40, $50 million? And he's like, that's where the focus is going to go. and he's probably right because, you know, the guys were making... Which where the focus should go. Yeah, but I mean, the guys making 12 and 12, like,

there's a reason why they sign 90,000 guys for the contender series. They're cheap labor. They put them on, and if you strike gold and you find a Sean O'Malley or, you know, you find a, you know, a diamond in the rough, like a, like Kevin Vechos, who came out and looked great, and he's a great guy. John Silva is looking like a good guy, Carlos Prasches. Get a couple of those.

It's all worthwhile, you know what I mean? But then you have, you know, you have guys who, there's guys who fought for contender series that. last card, look like dog shit. But you roll the dice because you're paying them 10 and 10 or 12 and 12. That's not really... I wouldn't say rolling the dice. I'm like, they're still making money on the...

Yeah, but I'm saying, you're not investing like hundreds of thousands of dollars. You're paying them 12 and 12. And if they suck, you don't bring them back. But if they become Sean O'Malley, you've got a legitimate star and you're going to pay him more money. And I think that's, I think to Josh's point, he's like, I think that's where the real focus is going to be is just paying the top-in guys.

Well, that's where the focus should be. And look, I can say for my own self, you know, the, like I was never a top top guy. I mean, I made avented a few times. But like, you know, there could be an argument that, you know, like when I debuted in the UFC, for instance, like, you know, I got like eight and eight. And was I worth eight and eight? Did I bring eight and eight to the company? You know, other than being just another fight on the card, you know, I mean, they could have got a zero or paid somebody. They could have charged a fighter to come in and fight.

You know, man, the guy would have paid it. And, you know, they would have got their value all the same, you know, if they didn't pay somebody anything at all, right? But again, when you're talking at the top, though, and this is like, I've had this argument a million times, or at least my side of the argument a million times. Like in boxing, they talk about, yeah, the bottom, you know, they don't really make shit. And it's just the top guy's making all that. It's like, well, that's the way sports work. That's the way business works. That's the way capitalism works.

Like if you're not very good at something and you don't create a lot of profit, then you don't make a lot of money. But when you start to bring in revenue and you build a good business, you build a good brand or however a beer, you win a lot of competitions and you start doing good,

then you start making money. Like it's the way that things work. Like nobody at the bottom gets paid much in any business. So, you know, we can give UFC all the props we want for that. But it's not, to me, it's not really given credit because it's like, those guys haven't really earned that. You know, and like I think, again, I'll even speak for myself. Like there was there was money that I got that I didn't necessarily earn. Now, again, when I'm going to a main event and they're, you know, selling out U.S. Bank Arena and, you know,

obviously it's a little different then. But when it's, you know, you're the guy on the prelims and you're making, you know, 30, 40, 50K or whatever it is, like you're not really earning that much money for the UFC, right? So, you know, they're actually, they're probably losing money on you in a sense.

I don't know. Would it have to be a different conversation? But, but you get my point, right? It's like, yeah, the top guys, the top end should be way higher. The bottom end, I think it's at a good spot, as a matter of fact. I think it's good where it is.

but the whole issue and I think Josh actually said this on that I've read that thread too and I think he says it is the top end that matters and I agree with them like it is the top end that those guys should have the potential to make Floyd Money Mayweather paydays

and the reality is like and here's the thing that's going to piss people off when I say this but I think you'll agree with me that if the UFC really wanted Nate Diaz versus Mike Perry they'd pay to get Nate Diaz versus me. They got the money to pay them.

If they really wanted to do it, they could. You know what I mean? And like the only thing about that whole deal that kind of bums me out is I think Nate and Connor would have been a good matchup to make. They're both older. It's a trilogy of a big fight. But I don't know. Maybe they just don't, you know, Nate is 41 now and he hasn't fought

MMA in five years and he's been boxing. Maybe they're just like, eh, it's not really, you know, that doesn't really do as much. Connor's going to sell against whoever he fights. We can pay his opponent a million dollars and it's still going to be massive because Connor. Connor's going to get the paycheck. Connor's going to bring the crowd.

They can pay Michael Chandler, you know, a couple million dollars versus paying Nate 15 or 20. You know what I mean? Like they don't need to invest 70 million in one fight versus paying Connor 50 paying his opponent $2 million. You know what I mean? And because they don't release salaries, his opponent will probably never know how much more Conner's making than him.

Conner's the star, though. Conner's the name. So they're like, we can put him in there against Maricio Roofing. Put him in against Michael Chandler, put him in there against anybody. And it's going to sell because it's Connor McGregor, right? So, like, yeah, like, if they really wanted Nate D. If they really wanted Corona and Rousey, I think they'd put on Corona and Rousey. But I think there's like a, like a, as you say, RLI, RICO, return on investment.

Like, we're going to pay Ronda 20 million. We're going to pay Genith's $20 million or $25, whatever the number is. Are we going to get that back from that card? And I got to imagine somewhere in the depths of TCO's accounting department, they're like, we're probably not going to get that back. So let Netflix pay him $50 million. and they'll get the ratings for one night and then a month later everyone will forget about it.

We're going to talk about the White House card, which I'm not I'm telling you now, Rousie Corona is going to do bigger numbers. But what's the better fight? Corona Rousey is probably going to be pretty bad. Like, let's be honest. One of hasn't fought 17 years. The other one hasn't fought 10 years.

Rhonda was getting exposed badly at the end of her career. Gina hasn't fought since 2009. I don't know what in the hell we're going to see there. Like, it could be over in 10, it could be the ugly. It could be the ugly. I mean, like, it could be the ugly. I was on the fighter show, I should say, in 2008. Yeah, it could be the ugliest, like, it could look real, real bad, just reality.

It could look real, real, real bad. And then Francis, you know, Philippe Lenz was not even a top 15 guy. He could get absolutely his head knocked in the third row, which is cool. Knockouts are awesome. And Perry Diaz could be a lot of fun, but there is still an element of, like, unknown. They haven't fought in a long time. We don't know. so maybe the UFC's looking at that direction.

Like they're going to spend $100 million to promote Rousey Coronda this card. I don't know how much they're actually going to spend. Let's just say they're spending $100 million on this card. The UFC's like, we're going to spend $50 million on the White House. We're going to have much better fights. Like when it's all said and done, like Ilya and Justin is a better fight. Cyril Gaon, Alex Perry, is a better fight. That's really what they're looking at.

That's it like when they pay Alex an eight-fight deal and they're paying whatever Alex is happy with, that's, who would you rather have for the next three years, Alex Pere or Rhonda Rousey? that's what they're looking at. That's what the UFC is looking at. Yeah, man. That's, yeah, and also the UFC is looking at, you know, they're going to, whether it's factual or not, they're going to promote as real as it gets.

They're going to promote that they have the best fighters in the world and they're going to put the best against the best. That's what they promote and that's what they tell us. And whether it's real or not. And most of the time it is real, right? I mean, we got to give them credit where credits do. The majority of the time, the UFC is putting on the best fights in the world. And all of the best guys are in the UFC.

So, you know, we just got to differentiate what we're watching here. And, again, we know the difference. And I think even the majority of the mainstream people are probably going to know. But, you know, it's hard to say, right? because I don't know, these normal people, I can't, I can't grasp what they're thinking half a time. I mean, I don't know how they, they watch fucking housewives of Atlanta and shit. You know, I mean, I can't get it.

So, you know, I don't relate to those people, but they, you know, they might be coming, they might think that Rousey's still the best girl in the world. I don't know. But, you know, the, the UFC has the lock on the market of we have the best in the world. And it's truthful, too. I mean, what's a bigger fight? Corona, Rousie, or Kayla and Amanda Nunes? Well, Rousie, Corona is probably still a bigger fight.

What's a better fight? Kayla versus Nunes is a thousand times better. Yeah, you're the actual two best in the world, yeah. Yeah, like, that is a thousand. Like, if you're asking me, like, the spectacle of it all, like, we all watch Jake Paul Mike Tyson, I knew that was going to be a horrible fight. Like, I knew it was going to be. And actually, I somehow actually was worse than I thought it was going to be, which is

hard to say. It was terrible. But we all tuned in because we all love Mike Tyson, and then we're, Like maybe, like there's some spark of energy left and whatever, and it was such a bad fight. But we all tuned in. We all, we all, you know, kind of fell for it. But then it just went away because, like, you know, Jake, you know, they weren't building anything there. It wasn't like they were building some epic rivalry.

And Mike was on a comeback tour. Mike was 35 years. All he was fucking 58. Like, it was a one-time deal. And, yeah, like, there's a spectacle aspect. Like, yeah, I'm going to watch Crowley Cron. Beyond, like, being a reporter, I'm saying, like, I'm going to watch it because, yeah, there's a spectacle. I want to see it.

But if you're like, okay, it's Saturday night. Rousey Carrano's on and Kayla Amanda on at the same time. Which one are you watching? I'm watching Kayla and Amanda a thousand times over because it is going to be a much, much better fight. So, yeah, I mean, they do have, you talk about monopolies. They do have a monopoly on the better fighters like it or not. Like what's more interesting to you in terms of just fight, not money? What's a better fight for you?

Francis and Ghanu and Philippe Lenz or Alex Pereira Cyril Garne? Yeah, it's a clear answer. Easy answer, yeah. And that's what the UFC is going to bang. on. And by the way, back to the pay thing. They obviously paid Pereira. I don't know how much they paid him. He seems pretty happy. Like he didn't, like, he wasn't like,

oh, they gave me a decent deal. He's like, I'm fucking over the moon happy. I don't know what they paid him, but he's very happy. And I'm sure Conner's going to get a fucking blank check. They're going to pay him because Conner's going to bring in that kind of money. But yeah, long term, like, Hamzat, Sean Strickland. I'm actually really excited for that one. Like, that's a really, really good

fight. Yes, I know I'llie is going to be a massive favorite over Justin, but I'm still excited, Justin does not put on boring fights and he could turn it chaotic and it could turn into a fucking bloody mess. You don't know. So yeah, what's the better fights? Yeah. What's bigger?

What do you quantify ultimately? You know what I mean? Because I'm sure I'm sure I'm making a good payday and I'm sure Justin's making a pretty good payday too. So yeah, I don't know. Like when you say breaking point, it's breaking point for now. You know, we're all talking about now. Six months from now, what are we going to be talking about?

It's no way near breaking point. You know, I mean, I'll just say it again. Like it's nowhere near a breaking point. The thing is that the UFC has, they already did the gimmick fights. Like, I don't think we're going to get that maybe ever again in the UFC. Like they've already done, they did the CM Punk. They brought up women's in May with Ronda, which I guess it's not really gimmick, I guess. But, you know, they brought up, they did the Brock Lesnar, right?

They did all this stuff. They built the UFC up to the ginormous brand that it is now. and they sold it off. And now it is such a ginormous brand that they can go around and say, look, we are the premier promotion with the best fighters in the world. And they're not going to say this part out loud, but like we have a lock on the best fighters in the world with our exclusive contracts. And they're not going anywhere.

We have all the best fighters in the world. And they're not lying about it. Like they have the best fighters in the world and they put on the best fights in the world. To be able to compete with. that like if you're an MVP or Netflix whatever and you want to compete with that which I again I question whether that's going to actually be their motive because that's a such a fucking battle you know we're nowhere near a breaking point that my my only question I would ask on that is did they nudge a little something to move towards an eventual breaking point which has years to

go yeah years I mean we're talking five 10 years minimum, you know, to even touch the UFC, to try to take them over. I mean, I don't, I have a hard time believing it'll ever happen unless the UFC completely fucks up and someone else. You know, the only way it would even possibly happen would be with this other lawsuit coming in with injunctive relief and opening up the market and changing the contracts. That's literally the only way that there's any chance of anybody getting anywhere near the UFC and it's and even then it's probably still not going to happen because they're about to pass this Ollie Revival Act and and then even if we junk to relief happens then now you

got to also get rid of UBOs too and I mean it's a like this battle is not a battle worth touching like you've you lost before you started did you see this story about like they had that big ticket master antitrust lawsuit and apparently like this is a story I don't know this is true apparently Ari Emanuel called Trump, and he was like, why isn't this settle? Why isn't it done? And Trump calls them and they're like, why isn't it settled? They didn't break it up. They didn't really change anything.

That's the kind of power. And guess who's, I mean, Ari Emanuel has Donald Trump's number. I know Dana White has Donald Trump. Like, who's to say, like, right now, like this antitrust lawsuit, if it gets really ugly? Who's to say Trump doesn't call and say, hey, let's just put this shit to bed? What are the federal judges going to say? We don't want to listen to you, Mr. President? Like, we're just going to go against your orders because you can fucking torch us.

the federal judge can't tell him to fuck off. And the judge in that case is an Obama judge. He is. But you know, that's my point. Your point stands. Yeah, you're fighting an uphill battle.

You're trying to ice skate uphill. Like, it's really just not a good idea. And because you got to think that Dana probably called Trump, you know, during the first lawsuit, right? And I'm just like, well, we don't want to pay 300 million or whatever it was.

and, I don't know. But think about it, the 300 million in the grand scheme of things, they're getting paid $1.1 billion per year from Paramount. It's a drop in the bucket. $335 million sounds like a lot. To you and me, it sounds like a shit ton of money. But to them they're like, ah, that's like what, a month and a half of Paramount, like two months of Paramount money?

And they wrote it off on taxes anyways? Like, all they're really trying to do is get to a point where they can settle and nothing changes because that's what happened with the first one, like the injunctive relief. the way, I get it. If you're fighters and you're like, hey man, I'm looking at a $200,000 pay day and I'm broke as shit and I can't pay my bills right now, I need that more than I need injunctive relief for a contract that I don't

have anymore. I'm not in the EOC anymore. I get it. I'm not faulting anyone for doing that. That's what, look at almost every anti-trustle or every big lawsuit, like these big class action lawsuits always into the settlement, and rarely does anything change? They just get the money and they're like, we'll pay the $50 million and then you fuck off and we get to go back and do our business however

we want. That's class action lawsuits from across the world. So, yeah, like, everyone's being very loud about the OSU. Oh, you didn't sign Nate Diaz. You didn't get Nate, you didn't Mike Perry. You didn't pay John Jones. It's loud right now. It'll get quiet again, just like it did in 2016 when they sold the company for $4 billion.

It was most likely get quiet because there's just exactly what we're talking about. There's no victory here. Like, all your loudness and your voice isn't doing anything. It's not going to change your thing. It already came. I'm sure you saw. I don't want to put words in it. I think maybe it was Sean O'Malley that said he's like, you know, like John Jones,

these guys need to be grateful, you know, to they're like, and so like it already happens. Like it's already turning in that regard. And everyone, yeah, they kind of give them shit. But like, that's the reality. You know what I mean? Like, not everyone's going to back you even then. Like, do I think John Jones deserves $30 million? Yeah.

What power do I fucking have? I have no power. I have no. I can't call Dana White. But dude, pay him $30 million. Why aren't you pay him $30 million? They don't give a shit. Like, that's what I said last night when Dana was addressing Nate Diaz, he's like, yeah, he got

off if he couldn't refuse good for him. He didn't seem bothered by it at all because he knows the grand scheme of things. He's like, in the grand scheme of things, they're going to have one night, everyone's going to talk about him for like two weeks, and they're going to fuck off again, and they're going to go, because there's only so many of those cards they can make, unless people really do fight out their contracts, which you and I know rarely ever happens in the UFC, and like even of Francis. Francis was never a star.

We talked about that a million times. I love Francis. I'm not knocking Francis. But he was never a story. What did they really lose? Because I said when Tom Aspinall became the guy, people didn't even mention Francis anymore. They're like, Francis who?

So like, the UFC's like, yeah, sure. Go ahead and go get overpaid to the point where PFO bought you one time and then released you because they realized you're not worth the money. They were paying you. Yeah, it sucks. Yeah, I mean, to circle back the whole thing. I mean, again, the UFC is the monster. there's no stopping it, especially with this, all the Revival Act about to go through,

with the injunctive relief, probably, who knows what will happen with that? I mean, we can all have our opinions. We really don't know. It's just, it's very similar to just like a government entity, like the, like the U.S. You know, we can sit here and see all the corruption. You know, we know all these motherfuckers where we're a pedophile island. and we know that, you know, shady dealings are going on everywhere, and nothing stops, right? They just, it's a monster, and you just can't stop it, man.

It's a fucking, it's a train rolling down the tracks at 100 miles an hour, and you ain't stopping that bitch, bro. And you know, it's funny, Alan, it's not funny, but it's just reality. Like, when Trump was in office the last time, we all talked about, like, he's got a direct line to the president, and clearly Donald Trump is a big Dana White fan, Clareby, a UFC fan. And I think he, I mean, you know, I went, I've been, I was at the arena back in the day when

Trump was at the arena when we were at EOC 53, I think it was, when it was Justin Eiler's against Ander Olobsk, remember Trump walking in. He really was there. Like, it wasn't like a show thing. Like, he really was sitting there front center. But when, when he lost the 2020 election and Joe Biden came in, it's like Joe Biden's like, you know what? Fuck the UFC.

I'm going after them. He had bigger fish to fry than fucking the UFC. You know what I mean? And so, like, Trump's in all this little 2028, you know, maybe longer, judging by how things are going right now, he cares about the UFC, but if he loses the now, whoever, the Republican lose the next election,

they're not going, the UFC is fucking peanuts to them. They got much bigger fish to fry than that. So like right now it seems like UFC gets a lot of focus, like getting the Ali Act passed. They're going to get, it's going to, come on, it's going to happen. We know it's going to pass.

We know it's going to get through. I think the vote's coming up pretty soon. I'm pretty sure it's going into House for a vote pretty soon. It's going to pass. And when whoever, just say hypothetically another Democrat gets nominated in 2028 they're going to worry about Iran and fucking

Palestine and Israel and they're going to get so many other fucking messes to clean up they're not going to give a shit about the USC's. It's not like suddenly the new president's going to come in and be like, we got to tear down the UFC. They don't give a shit. So like USC's playing with House money right now like it or not they are.

Yeah, that's exactly right. It's unfortunate, man. You know, that's the fucked up world we live in. So you're better off accepting it and focusing on your damn self and doing the best that you can, you know, then trying to fight these uphill battles. But, you know, that doesn't mean that we can't speak our minds and say what we feel about it and speak the truth as we see it.

And, you know, everybody, I said that on Twitter there it is. Like, oh, the truth as I see it and took a lot of shit for that. And I'm like, I'm like, look, with the information I got, I base the truth on that. With the information that I get, right? I'm not perfect. My information I get is not perfect. but to me that's what the truth is because that's the information that I get

and through my own experiences and again we all have our own experiences we all have our own information that we get so I just had to clear that up real quick just in case these fucking haters there's only one truth motherfucker and like okay well I guess you know the truth

not me so anyway well and last thing I'll say about this before we get out of here Like everyone's going to say, man, you're just, it's defeated. You're just like the UFC's going to win. It's not that we're just letting, like, we just see that. Like, you can look ahead and see the path in front of you and tell where it's going to go a little bit.

You know what I mean? You got to pick your battles, man. Like when Strike Force came along and they were doing really, when they had the heavyweight Grand Prix, they were like, man, like they got great heavyweights. They're doing really well. A year later, they got bought up by the UFC, and they're gone. They're dead in the water.

You know what I mean? So, like, pride. And pride was big. Pride was huge. And then slowly but surely, you know, fucking yakuos. and all the other shit was going on there and the fucking shit then the UFC became the powerhouse and now the pride's gone. Belator's gone.

PFL doesn't look like they're going to be around a whole lot longer. It doesn't by the way things are going over there. One championship is, you know, clinging on by a string, you know, doing only shows in Thailand and stuff. So like it's not, it's not defeatist or it's not, you know, being skeptical. It's just the reality of the situation. Like, you know,

like, it's like the NFL. Like, the NFL is already getting paid more than anybody else on TV. They saw what other leagues are getting, the NBA and UFC and they're like, hold on now. We want to renegotiate it. Their deals aren't up to like 20-30 and they're already like, you know what? We want to renegotiate.

What the TV network is going to say? No. They're already, okay, okay, because you bring in the ratings. Is anyone complaining about the NFL that they're this juggernaut? Like, no. They're the fucking biggest TV getter or the biggest ratings getter in the United States. It's not admitting defeat.

It's just accepting the reality of our situation. Yeah, yeah. I'm just speaking, you know, exactly the reality of the situation, as you said. And, you know, that doesn't mean that we can't keep continuing to speak the truth. And look, that, you know, big odds have been overcome in the past. And, you know, I'm not saying it's impossible or that it will never happen. But I see no path in sight because the only path that I see would be legislative reform. And certainly that's not going to happen under Trump.

and like you said, are they even going to care, you know, the next president or whatever, the next administration? And, you know, it just kind of, it is what it is, you know. And I think speaking the truth, though, the biggest, most important thing with that is an up-and-coming fighter or someone once again to get into M.A., someone interested in it, you know, whether it be a college wrestler or a, you know, a kickbox champion, whatever, is that they understand the business that they're getting into and exactly what they're dealing with.

And that's, you know, I think kind of the most important thing about the only thing that you really can do is just to understand what it is that you're getting into, who you're dealing with and what your top and bottom lines are, right? Yeah. You know, and again, there's a lot of success stories from the UFC. You know, you got to give credit what credit is do. You know, it can't be all hate and all pessimism.

I mean, Alex Prayer was working an entire shop and here he is making millions of dollars. It's on top of the world. And, you know, I mean, hell, you know, my own story, you know, like I was a fucking drug addict, worthless loser. And now I got, you know, good life, right? So, you know, it's not all, it's not all doom and gloom, but, you know, just understanding. Because I guess the thing is, like, when I was coming up, like, none of us really understood what we were getting into.

I think there was a few that did. I think, you know, there was some really smart people that were around, like, the Cotors and Rich Franklin's, like, they understood. I didn't really understand. But it was also a path out. And I think it's a beautiful thing that they've given a path out to a lot of people. You know, and if you go fight and you win, like, you can do a lot of great things in the world and in the sports. So, you know, it's not all just doom and gloom. And that's where we're going back to Josh Barnett's tweet, right?

the bottom people, that's not where the concern even needs to be. It's the guys, you know, like the John Jones and the Connor McGregors and the Rhonda Rousey's, you know, seeing them get their rightful due. Like John Jones deserves a hell of a lot more money than he's ever made. Connor McGregor deserves more than he's ever made. Ronda Rousey, I mean, the list goes on. Elliott-Poria right now deserves more than he's making. And that's just factual.

So, you know, if you're a bow nickel coming into the sport, I hope that, well, I can only hope that, you know, he listens to one of my podcasts here and understands a little bit about the business that he's getting into and saying, okay, well, maybe, maybe I should do this or maybe I should go be a fucking accountant or, you know, whatever, be a firefighter, whatever fucking job you want to do. But, you know, just understanding the business. And the reality is real quick, like, if I would have told you five years ago that the DOC was going to pay it offered John Jones $30 million to fight Tom Aswell, you probably would have laughed at me. Like, they're not paying $30 million. So, I mean, do I think John Jones deserves more? Hell yeah. But, you know, John Jones is probably still in a position where he's never going to have to work another day in his life unless he's just blown through his money or whatever. Like he's made.

But do I think he deserves $30 million? Yeah. And like, to their credit, I'm not defending the EEOC. He probably deserves $100 million. Yeah, but they offered him $30. And that's a pretty, I mean, 30 million is a good payday. I mean, there's a lot of boxers who don't make $30 million. And, you know, in that fight, it's John is the A side, and Tom's not.

Like it or not, Tom's not an A side in that fight. You know, John and D.C. probably a little different. That was a much different fight for what, in terms of the day had a rivalry. But if they really, and it sounds like they did, like they offered him $30 million, that's a pretty good payday. Now, why they wouldn't pay him that same amount for Alex Pere, or maybe it came down to how much money they're going to lose on the White House? They're like, we just can't pay you $30 million for that fight

where we're going to make no money. Maybe, I don't know. But I'll give them credit for that, like $30 million for that. That's a pretty hefty. You got to wonder if that same offer would be open, you know, on an international fight week card or something like that, right? And maybe John's like, I only want to buy the White House. And they're like, well, we're not paying that for the White House.

Like, we already are investing so much money in the White House card. We know we're going to lose money. We're not paying another $30 million on top of money we're not going to make. Or even just like they said. like everybody's going to watch the White House with or without John Jones. So, so, you know, let's give you $30 million to do this card that no one else is going to watch. And we can bring all prelim under, prelim guys for the undercard and, you know, pay everybody else 10 and 10 or 12 or 12, whatever it is. And we'll just sell this fight, get your $30 million.

We'll make our money back and everybody will be happy. Yeah, and maybe John's like, I only want to be in the White House. Like, well, we're not paying that for the money. So, yeah, I don't know. I'm not defending the EOSC, I'm just saying there's other things going on there. But, yeah, I mean, I started out saying, is this a breaking point? And you kind of convince me, yeah, it's not a breaking point. That's not at all.

No, it's not even close. And I'll say it one more time. I mean, the only chance is that this is a nudge towards a breaking point, like a millimeter closer to a breaking point. And I have a hard time believing that's even the case. But we'll see what Netflix and MVP and them do. I mean, we know they got the money, how committed, are they going to be because that commitment

it can't be a let's give us a shot commitment this has to they have to buckle up their belts really tight and be ready for the ride because it's going to be a long bumpy ass ride and you're not going to see any return for a long time

and there's no real competition in boxing like not like I mean like they just because everyone's a one off deal in boxing like there is no UFC in boxing like there's not there's top rank there's golden boy there's that they can always put on big boxing matches, right? Like they can always, you know, they can get the

Terrence Crawford's and the Canellos because it's an open market. Yeah, there's no UFC in boxing so they can do whatever they want. And by the way, if you want to compete with the UFC, you're going to have to get already established stars. Guess where they came from? UFC. And you've got

you kind of got a thing too. I'll kind of end on this. If they were going to do a building thing, would you put all the stars on one card like that? You know, like it doesn't really add up that you would do Perry Diaz. Like, that's a card in itself.

Ingano versus anybody. That's a card in and of itself. So it kind of doesn't really add up that that's what their ultimate game plan is. Yeah, 100%. All right. Matt, obviously, we got this weekend in U.S.C. Seattle. I mentioned Israel out of Sonja, Joe Pfe. And, of course, R.A.F. 7.

I'm very excited about that. Georgia O'Pul has. Armin Sarukin and Colby coming in Dylan Dan. So we've got that. So we'll have, we'll be talking about that stuff coming back next week. Matt, where can people go if they want to check you out and check what you got going on? I'm the Immortal Instagram and Twitter,

the Immortal Matt Brown on Facebook. And Immortal cast on Spotify and YouTube. Yeah, I saw you did an episode with your boy, with your boy Josiah. I saw he was on a podcast next one. Tomorrow we'll be having my boy Jamie Jostah. Oh, look at that. Hey, I love it.

Yeah, good stuff, good stuff. Well, we appreciate everyone tuning into this podcast, of course. Make sure you check us on all your favorite podcast platforms, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and of course over on the best website in the world, MMAFighting.com. For Matt Brown, I am Damon Martin. We'll see you next week for another edition of The Fighter versus the Rider. Thanks so much for tuning in. We'll see you then.