MMA Fighting - Fighter vs. Writer: Matt Brown Erupts on Tyson Fury After Abysmal Performance and Proclaims Francis Ngannou Will ‘Wreck’ Every Heavyweight in Boxing Right Now

Episode Date: October 31, 2023

This week on The Fighter vs. The Writer, UFC welterweight Matt Brown and MMA Fighting senior reporter Damon Martin react to the shocking result in the boxing match between Francis Ngannou and Tyson Fury. Despite entering the fight as a massive underdog, Ngannou scored the only knockdown after the planted Fury on the ground with a huge left hand in the third round. In the end, Ngannou lost a razor-close split decision that many believe should have gone his way. Brown erupts when addressing Fury’s performance after he was touted as one of the best heavyweights in recent boxing history while proclaiming that the entire division “sucks” right now after Ngannou exposed them. Plus we’ll address what should come next for Ngannou after such a stunning performance — should he go back to boxing for another fight or make his return to MMA for his debut in the PFL? We’ll also talk about Jon Jones dropping out of his scheduled fight against Stipe Miocic at UFC 295 and Brown details the difference between courage and stupidity when setting foot in the cage for a fight. All this and more on the latest episode of The Fighter vs. The Writer. Subscribe to MMA Fighting Check out our full video catalog Like MMA Fighting on Facebook Follow on Twitter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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The downloaded two, ghosts in the machine. Available now, only from Audible. The Vox Media Podcast Network. Fighter versus the writer, I'm your host, Damon Martin. I am joined, as always, by UFC legend. Matt Brown and Matt, do you realize we live in a world where Francis Inganu took the heavyweight boxing champion of the world Tyson Fury

to a split decision. Do you realize that's the world we live in now? I've come to realize this. Yeah. Yeah. It's fucking crazy man. Arguably won. Right? Not just to look up to a split decision. Like there's a very good

argument to be made that he won. I think he did win. I mean, I scored him winning. I don't think it was like a controversy. Like, I don't think he got robbed necessarily, but I think there's definitely a world where he won. And I scored him winning, although again, I don't, I don't, you know, I'm not crying foul or saying it was a terrible decision. Like, it was a close fight. He got the only knockdown in the third round,

legit knockdown, not a slip, not a, you know, not a random, you know, moment he hit him and, and Fury went down. And Tyson, like, honestly, Tyson looked scared of Francis Ingonon, that entire fight. Like, he did not want to engage. He was, he was worried about the power. And Inganu looked a hundred times better than anyone ever could have imagined he would in his boxing debut. Like, listen, I,

I underestimated him more than you did. You actually said he had like a 2% chance. I said he basically had no chance because I said that, you know, Fury was the worst matchup for him in heavyweight. And then Ghana goes out there and has that kind of fight. I'd say, well,

I'm going to change 300, 180 degrees from what I said there a day. I was pumping up Tyson Fury. and I thought he was this and that. I'll tell you what. This reminded me of Buster Douglas, Mike Tyson, right? A huge upset, right? Like, you know, whether or not Francis won or not, again, you can talk about that.

But the fact that he went to a split decision and arguably won, like, that's a win, right? That's an upset to the fucking max. but what we found when Mike Tyson thought Buster Douglas is we found out who Mike Tyson was and we realized that he was not the stone cold murder that was going to walk through everybody that he came across right

Buster Douglas stood up to him and fought on my command and that was all it took I see that's the same here like we found out who Tyson Fury is he is not the boxer that we thought that he was i think he took this fight serious i think he went for it i think he trained hard and i think he's been overrated this whole time i think i overrated him wow see i didn't go that round i mean i i don't i don't know that i i wouldn't say overrated i think i underrated an ingano for sure like i definitely underrated ingano skills

because you know never having a professional fight getting i would add that too underrated in Gano and overrated Tyson Fury. Yeah, I mean, listen, to our credit, I mean, you know, we were certainly not alone in picking Tyson Fury to win that fight. I mean, you know, anyone, anyone in their right mind that is watched boxing would pick that fight that way. That's there, right?

What you're saying right there is, is, that's the thing that I'm talking about. Tyson should have walked through him. You know what I'm saying? Like he's a 30 and 0 or what 33 and 0, well, undefeated heavyweight champ. He should have walked through him. This tells me that the level of heavyweight boxing is very low. Like I don't care if you're the greatest athlete in the history of sports mankind.

You should not come in and go to a split decision with the champion. That tells me that the whole division. and when you look at Tyson's and I'm not hating on Tyson I love the guy I love his personality I love everything about him I've always been huge on him

but I think it just overrated man like nobody should nobody should come in their first match and be able to do that yeah I mean and to Inganu's credit one thing I want to give me huge credit for is like he looked like a boxer in there

like he really did like I know that sounds like such a low bar I'm setting as a compliment but I mean that as a compliment. He didn't look like an MMA fighter trying to be a boxer. He looked like a boxer. He avoided Fury's faints. He did good in the combinations. He scared Fury away several times with his punches.

He never backed down. He paced himself. You know, obviously we can sit here and critique little things here and there, but for a guy making his professional debut, how good do you expect him to really be? And he's taking on the heavyweight champion of the world. A guy that we both, at least I did, said like one of the best heavy weights to the past.

30 years, certainly didn't look like that on Saturday night. And then he goes out there, knocks him down, showed no fear. And really, and he went 10 rounds. He didn't just do this. Like, he didn't go out and have like a good three or four. Like we, when McGregor fought Mayweather, and I'm not trying to discount what Connor did, but when Connor fought Mayweather and won a couple rounds, and I know people are going to say, and I understand, Mayweather carried him and was just, you know, feeling him out

because that's what Mayweather always does. and then, you know, Mayweather picked him apart and finished him. That's absolutely what happened. But even that, we were kind of like, well, you know what? He still managed to win a couple of rounds against one of the best boxers in the last, you know, 50 years. That's still an accomplishment. Like, it is.

To a certain extent, I don't care if Mayweather gave away the rounds. Connor still did it. That was a pretty high bar for what Connor did. For Francis to go out there and go to a split decision and arguably win the fight scored the only knockdown in the entire fight, that is unreal. That is unmatched. that is something we've never seen and I don't know if we'll ever see again.

Yeah, I totally agree with you. And man, I guess just what I'm saying is, I mean, when you talk about everything you see online or a lot of what you see online in these past couple days on social media has been, you know, Dana fumbled the bag, the UFC fumbled the bag. You know who fumbled the bag was fucking Tyson Fury.

Tyson Fury should have put him away. Like, this absolutely drives me nuts. Like, like, he, He fumbled the bag on Saturday night. This should not have been a competitive match. And again, I think Tyson took a serious. I think he really trained for it. But when he felt and gone out hit him, I mean, we all seen the look in his eyes.

He did not want to be in there at that point. Like he was, I mean, you've seen his eyes, right? Like, he was shocked. Yeah, he was shook. He got shook. when he got hit the first time and got clipped pretty good, I think it changed everything. And then when Inganu knocked him down,

I mean, because you saw for the rest of the fight, like even the moments the Fury won the exchanges, it was almost like he was looking to hit and then immediately get out again. Like there was no pursuing Inganu. There was no, I'm going to back him into a corner and really started loading punches on him. He just looked afraid.

He looked afraid of Francis Inganu. Yeah. I didn't see any like strategy coming from Tyson. This is why I said like he pumbled the bag. Like I didn't see a strategy. I didn't see, you know, like him jabbing a lot. I mean, he definitely, you know, he threw his jab. It's not like he didn't throw it.

But, you know, he should have spent the first five rounds jabbing his face up and not even doing anything else. But he did. I don't know. It just it tells me again, I'm a set. I'm a broken record here. But the heavyweight division in boxing right now just sucks. These guys are not what we thought they were. And Francis Ngano just exposed them.

And he's going to go out there. If he fights AJ, he's going to beat AJ's ass. If he fights Wilder, he's going to beat Wilder's ass. Like he's going to go in and wreck the heavyweight division. He's going to go back to fight Fury. And he's going to probably win. I think he's going to wreck them all. I'm calling it now. Francis and Goddors coming in going to dominate the boxing heavyweight division because they suck.

Here's the big question, Matt, afterwards. Because, again, I thought he won. I don't think it was a robbery, but I think he won the fight. We already know that Fury is set up to fight Alexander Usik in December. I don't know if it'll be December, but we know that they're supposed to fight. Yep. The big question afterwards is what should Francis do next? should you go back to the PFL, should you go do MMA?

And I said, absolutely not. You just set yourself up for the biggest payday of your entire life to fight Fury again, to fight Anthony Joshua, to fight Deonti Wild. Francis and Gano just became the A side of every fight he could have in the boxing world. He went from being the B side against the heavyweight champion and getting paid, you know, whatever was, $10 or $15 million, whatever he got paid. He is now the A side, and he can command the. $30 million, $40 million, whatever he wants.

No offense to the PFL, but Francis should not even sniff a mixed martial arts fight right now. You should just go train his ass off in boxing, get even better than he already was, and gear up for whatever comes next in March, April, whatever the timeline is for his return. And maybe it's Fury, maybe it's Wilder, maybe it's Joshua. Whatever it is, get your money and go out and prove that that was no fluke. I could not agree more. The only thing I think it could bring him back to MMA, or the only thing it should bring him back to M.A.

If somehow, which we know it's not going to happen, the UFC co-promotes with PFL, and it's John Jones versus Francis Ingano. And that there, I mean, that's the biggest fight you can make in MMA history, especially, like, now is the time to strike if they're ever going to do that, right? I mean, obviously, John's got to come back from his injury. And no offense to Stipe, like, I'm friends with Stipe. I'm a gigantic fan. But if I'm John Jones, I go talk to Dana and I say,

bro, let's make this happen. Let's do the cop promotion. It's not going to kill the UFC. It's not going to hurt their, you know, future of being the, it's not going to make the NFL a competitor with the UFC in any way, in my opinion. Yeah, I agree. I agree. I mean, listen, you're right, though.

Chances are it won't happen. Like, you know, we got to be honest with ourselves. probably won't happen. But like for Francis, if he goes back to MMA and he goes back to the PFL, who's it going to fight? Yeah, there's no one else. You know, like, is he going to, what's he going to do, do a rematch with Junior Dos Santos? He's going to fight Ryan Bader. I love Ryan Bader.

I'm not saying like a knock on Ryan Bader, but like, is that a big fight for him? Is he going to fight any of the random heavyweights in PFL and it's going to mean something when he can be fighting Deonti Wilder or Anthony Joshua or Fury rematch? Like, dude, you just took the heavyweight champion of the world, the undisputed. I mean, I know other people have belts because that's boxing. But he was the undisputed heavyweight king. Everyone, even though Alexander Usick had belts, everyone ranked Tyson Fury as the better heavyweight. He just went out there and I think legitimately beat the best heavyweight in boxing. You call your shot now.

You are the A side. Take advantage of this. Like you're going to, this is once in a lifetime opportunity kind of stuff. And Francis has always dreamed about being a boxer. This was his dream before he came to the UFC. This was his dream before he ever decided to do MMA. Strike while the iron's hot. Take advantage of this opportunity you just created for yourself

and book another massive boxing fight where it's now going to be instead of Fury versus Inganu, it's going to be in Ganu versus Fury or Inganu versus Wilder or Inganu versus Joshua. Go out there and make your money, dude. And listen, I have nothing against the PFL. I actually really like what the PFL does, and I'm glad that they're giving Francis

this opportunity. But Francis doing what he did may have just demolished whatever plans PFL had for Francis because why would you go back? Like, why would you, why would you risk, you know, why would you fight a kind of a random heavyweight? And, and listen, it's MMA. We talked about that with the Sean Strickland, Israel out of Sanya fight. Anything can happen. I mean, you know, you can fight Ryan Bader and he goes out and grind you against the, on the cage for five rounds and you lose. Now, that doesn't necessarily eliminate your boxing future, but it certainly takes a hit. You why would you risk that? I totally agree.

Is some universe, maybe a parallel universe, I just imagine the UFC agreeing to co-promote with PFL. He comes over does MMA, fights John Jones, wins that fight,

goes back to heavyweight boxing, beats Anthony, Joshua, gets a rematch with Fury, beats Fury, or Hussick, whoever wins that fight. and it's just the biggest star in combat sports history. You know, crossing over, going back and forth, fighting the big dogs in one promotion, in MMA,

fighting the big dogs in boxing, being champion of the world. I fucking hope Francis does it, man. I think it would just be so tremendous, man. I think it would be the biggest star in sports history, and the son of a bitch has earned it, man. That's one thing we got to keep in mind. earned everything that he's done.

Like, right, we, so many people were saying, you know, he messed up by taking this risk. Everybody, you know, and everything from his life all the way in the beginning, right? The salt mines escaping and then coming out here and doing what he's done, man,

I hope he takes over the fucking world. Yeah, I'm with you, 100%. And to that point, you know, in terms of like, you know, he's written his story is incredible. Like, we all know that. We should, I said it before the fight, and I wasn't negating, I wasn't trying to negate his chances, although I'll be the first admit, like, I was wrong. We were all wrong. No one predicted Francis was going to do

that. If you're, you're logically no one predicted Francis was going to go out there and do that to Tyson. Even, even the hardest core MMA guys I know were like, yeah, he can make it tough for a couple of rounds and then, you know, in God news, Ercimmy Tyson's going to take over and probably finish him in six or seven rounds. That's what everyone thought was going to. I mean, the standard talking point was he has the nuclear option, right? It wasn't he's going to box with him for 10 rounds and have a chance.

Exactly. Like, I mean, Ganu won us because he uncorked a punch and knocked out Tyson Fury. That, I mean, yes, he did get a knockdown, but that didn't even happen really. He went out there and he went out and out and boxed him. Right. And that was our one or two percent chance, right? It was that gigantic

punch coming from nowhere. And he went out and boxed with him. Like, he boxed the boxed with him. And again, I'm not saying a hundred times I have to. Dude, Tyson Fury, in my opinion, it lowered him. It raised in Gano's stock, obviously. Like, he's obviously, you know, a world-class boxer. But the other part, too, it lowered my opinion of Tyson Fury a lot also.

Because he should have went out there and dominated. I'm with you. I agree. I mean, I also agree with you when you say, think he took it seriously. I don't think he half-assed it. He actually looked in good shape. You know what I mean? Like he didn't look like he was sloppy. He didn't look like he didn't care. Do I think he thought it would be an easier fight than it was? Sure. But that doesn't negate his skill and ability. You know, it doesn't negate how good. And I mean this with the utmost respect to Francis and Ghanu.

He's an oh-and-o boxer with, I mean, yes, he has fight experience, but not boxing experience. you're supposed to be the best heavyweight on earth. You should not struggle against that guy. Yes. If the reverse, if the reverse happened, if you're going to Tyson Fury to an MMA fight with Francis Ngano, Inganu should demolish him. Shouldn't even be close?

Shouldn't even be a fight? You know what I mean? And if it was, if Tyson Fury took Francis and Gano to a split decision in mixed martial arts, we'd all be like, oh my God, what just happened? Because that should not happen, right? Same thing here.

I'm not negating Francis's skill, but if you're the best heavyweight in boxing, you should not be going to a split decision with a guy who has never boxed professionally ever. Should not happen. That's exactly my point. And I mean, there's not a single guy

in the UFC at the lighter weights. You know, you take, like Sean O'Malley and Tank Davis are talking a bunch of shit, right? The tank doesn't have a single problem with Sean O'Malley. I promise you. I'd love to see the fight just to prove everybody, right?

You know, we could do these matchup, dream matchups all day. 90% of these guys don't have a shot. Like, because at the lower level or lower weights in boxing, these guys are real savage and extremely, extremely skilled guys. And that's my argument here is the heavyweight division just sucks. That's what, you know, that's why a guy can come in. Don't get me wrong.

Francis is a specimen, right? He's a fucking amazing athlete, absolute savage warrior. But I guarantee any of those other weights, somebody tries crossing over oh and oh against the champion. They don't have a chance. There's guys I do think could cross over and have success. There's guys I think could maybe even work their way up to a championship level. but oh and oh against champion day one

no shot in hell except in the heavyweight division and yeah i know like light heavyweight is what better be of he's the arthur better be up he's the light heavyweight champion like that dude's a savage like i couldn't see anyone challenging him you know david benavides like down the you know down a couple of ways you know i want to go yeah demetre biville exactly another one like yeah i just it's unbelievable and again it's kind of a two-sided thing right like francis did

far better than we thought he would and Fury maybe wasn't who he thought he was. Like it's kind of the same thing. Like, because I want to make sure we're clear, like we're not negating anything about what Ngano did. Again, if he got just went to a decision with Francis with Ty Sopira, I don't care if he lost the decision.

He just went out there and survived 10 rounds with the best heavyweight in the world. That's a win to me. Like, that would have been a huge win to me because that's, you're not supposed to do that. I mean, I was actually cornering guys on Saturday night. I didn't get to watch the fight really close. But I looked over and I seen the knockdown.

And right there, I said, he just won. Like, he could get knocked out later. He could, you know, Tyson could get up and knock him out 30 seconds later. Francis Ngano just won. He won the night. He won the hearts of everybody. He proved everybody wrong. Like, we should all hail Francis Ngano at this point.

Absolutely. The fucking king of combat. Absolutely. So we talk about what comes next, Matt. and we both agree that it should be boxing. You know, it looks like Fury is going to be tied up with the Uyc fight. In theory, again, nothing's official, but it sure looks like that's where they're going. And I'm Tyson Fury, I probably don't want to run it back with Francis deaconu right away

because it may not go well. What do you think should be, I mean, should he just sit patiently and wait for Fury because we know the rematch is going to be that much bigger? Should he pursue Anthony Joshua or Deonté Wilder? And you said, by the way, I want to give credit or credits do. When we talked about these boxing matchups a couple months ago, you said very openly you thought Tyson was the worst matchup. You actually said Anthony Joshua was the best because Anthony Joshua does not like getting hit.

And Anthony Joshua, let's be honest. Obviously, he's looked like a high-level boxer, but he has not looked great in the last couple years. And he does not like getting hit at all. He does not react well to adversity. We saw that in the Usyk fights. So we saw it in the Andy Ruiz fight. So what is the ideal matchup?

Like if you're playing Francis's manager here, like what do you tell him to do next? First, I go try to get the co-promotion with UFC and fight John Jones. That's the biggest fight in MMA history, right? That's the biggest. Again, I don't think it happens, you know, but look, the UFC surprises us all the time with new things, right? and you know they're they're also under the what is it the endeavor banner now too right so that you know

they that's a publicly traded company they want money right there their stock prices what they care about so there's a chance right like you know it's it's a i don't think it's completely out of question like dana has has evolved a lot i remember he said there would never be women's in may back in the day, right? And then he did that, you know, so I don't, I don't completely, we're always shocked at the UFC's business moves, you know, so that you're like getting rid of USADA a few weeks ago, right? So we like, we never know. I don't think it's completely out of question. Is it, is it probable? Of course not. But I don't think it's totally out of question. So I push for that first. If I'm a other than that, yeah, I'm with you. Stay in boxing. Keep, the biggest boxing

match out there is Anthony Joshua and it's the best fight. Wilder obviously is the second option, a much more dangerous fight, I think. Because I think like Anthony Joshua would also tell us a lot more about Ingano, because the, the big punch is obviously like where, and Gano has a great chance, right? But as you said, you know, Anthony Joshua, I wouldn't say like he doesn't like to get hit or anything. He's actually had some pretty tough fights that he's fought through and gotten hit and worked his way through him.

But that has been the one knock on him is, you know, he's not good with the wars and he's not good with getting hit a lot. He's not, you know, a savage brawler, you know, know, he can't bite down. He's not the guy that bites down on his mouthpiece and walks forward through the fire. So that I think that's a, that's a fight that tells us a lot about who Ingano would be as a boxer. With that said, you know, Joshua is a much more skilled boxer than Anthony Josh or than Francis Ingano. So again, I think that's where we do find out a lot about Ganon if he fights him. On top of that, that is,

without question the biggest selling match out there for Ingano outside of fighting John Jones. So yeah, push for that. Yeah, I agree. But I do believe it's a winnable fight. Like I'm not discounting Anthony Joshua, but I think it is a winnable fight. It's an even matchup to me at this point.

Like, I don't think the Tyson Fury that fought Saturday night beats Anthony Joshua. I don't think he knocks out Anthony Joshua. Right? I think a few weeks ago, like, we wouldn't even question Anthony Joshua versus Tyson Fury, right? Tyson kills him. After last Saturday, I don't know that that's the case. Yeah, I don't know.

I mean, I fully admit I'm on the, I don't believe in Anthony Joshua train. I fully admit that I'm on that. I'm on that list of people who just doesn't, I don't think he's as good as everyone made him out to me for so long. Like, I've always felt he was a little overrated. and ever since the Ruiz fight, I felt like maybe I was proven right because he's not really looked great in any fight since then.

I mean, he knocked out his last opponent that took the fight on five days notice. He took, was it Germain, whatever, Drane Bradley or whatever is to a decision? You know, a guy you should absolutely demolish. You went out there and went to a decision with him. You know, I mean, I just, I'm not an Anthony Joshua guy. I guess I'm just not an Anthony Joshua guy,

and I think that is a winnable fight for Inganu. And you're right, it is a massive fight. You know, Joshua is a huge, a huge star. Go out there and get your money, and now you're the A side. You know, go out and make Inganu versus Joshua, because you're the A side, get paid $50 million or $40 million or whatever the huge amount of money is, and stick around with boxing because you're right. Like, I'm with you.

If you could get the John Jones fight, which I personally don't think would happen. But if you can't get that fight, who are you going to fight in MMA that's going to even come close to that? Like, there's nothing. there's no one else to, I'm with you, there's no one else to fight in M and A. Again, Ingano's the A side. He has to have a good B side now, right? Because he's not an A side to the point of like a Mayweather where he can fight any old scrub and and it's still going to sell a huge pay-per-view.

Like he's still the A-side that needs a B-side. You know what I mean? Yeah. No, you're right. And he needs somebody to draw alongside him even though he is the A-side. but yeah, you're absolutely right. And like him and random dude from PFL is not going to sell. Like it's just not going to do it.

And it doesn't mean anything. I'm not sure why exactly that is, you know? Like it's one of those things that, you know, maybe Francis needs to win a couple more big fights to be that guy. I'm not sure. But like Mayweather was like one of those rare cases where, you know, it didn't matter who he fought. Like everybody was watching, everybody was buying.

I don't think Francis is there yet. But there's nothing wrong with that. That's a rare feat to get to like the McGregor-Mayweather level where you can fight anybody and people are going to care, right? Like, that's a rare feat in combat sports. Yeah, it doesn't really happen, you know, not often anyway. So I'm okay with that. I'm okay that he needs a good B-side to sell a fight.

But who's the B-side in M-A? I mean, there's just nobody. If he's not in the UFC, and I like PFL, I do. but unfortunately heavyweight's always been a razor thin division and john jones is in the ufc stevieffi mioch is in the ufc sergey pavlovich is in the ufc tom aspinall's in the ufc i mean you know i like ryan bader a lot but is anyone going to clamor and put down 60 70 dollars to watch francis angano against ryan bader i don't think so um you know tell you what man i would i would love to see a Godot fight.

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I was happy for Francis. I'm very happy for Francis today. But I do want to say one other thing, I've heard a lot of people saying, man, Dana White must be living with regret today. Do you really think Dana gives a shit? Like, really? Dana, I mean, I'm sure in the back of his mind, Dana's like, you know, in a weird way, he might even be like good for him.

Dana's running the most profitable, the only profitable mixed martial arts organization in the world. I know for a fact, none of the other organizations are making money. He's making the biggest revenues in history. He just signed a $100 million deal with Bud Light. He's putting on fights every weekend and UFC is selling out, you know, they're selling out arenas and selling pay-per-views and they got a big TV deal coming up next year. While I do think the UFC messed up by not just working with Francis because this could have been a UFC top-ranked co-promotion and kept Francis in the UFC, I do think they messed up there. But do I think Dana is living with regret today? Like he's visiting a psychiatrist.

I mean, like, I need help. I can't get past this mental hurdle that I lost Francis. No, Dana doesn't give a shit. Like, I'm not saying that as an insult. I'm just being honest. Like, Dana doesn't care. He's moving on to the next guy. That's why they, when they couldn't get Francis signed,

they just immediately booked John Jones and Cyril Gond. They didn't cry over spilled milk and say, we can't fathom having a heavyweight division without Francis and Gano. That's the difference between the UFC and all these other organizations is the UFC isn't built around one. But Connor hasn't been around for over two years. The UFC's broken every financial record. they've ever had in the last two years since Connor fought. So it's not about one guy in the UFC.

I'm not saying it's right. And I'm not saying that the UFC didn't mess up by not resigning Francis. I'm just pointing out, Dana White is nowhere in his, in his $500 billion house and his, you know, eight million cars. He's not, he's nowhere in there with a tissue wiping away the tears because he lost Francis Agonu. Dude, that's a really good point, man, because I read a lot of that same stuff. but like, oh, Dana White must be fucking pissed right now or sad or whatever.

And yeah, you're right, man. You know, Dana is a master businessman and he's around other master businessmen, you know, with R. Emmanuel, now Vince McMahon. Like, these guys have strategies. They're going to keep dominating. And that's a fact. Like, the UFC's not going anywhere. Like, none of this brought the UFC down a fucking single iota, right?

like it did not phase them one bit so yeah they're not but with that said they have to i think they have to see the bigger picture here again i'm not a businessman like them i don't know what their business strategy is for the future and all that but if i'm personally if i'm dana white i'm looking at this like okay he went out there and boxed let's co-promote like like let's go for the fucking big bucks because they are there now. He puts John Jones up against him, co-promotes and John Jones wins. I mean, that just makes it make that.

That's the way that Dana can capitalize on this and everything works out. Now, if John Jones goes and loses, I don't know, you know, what happens there, right? But John Jones goes out and dominates Francis. That's a, I think. that I mean, that's the way to go. And how big of a fight is that? I mean, it just does, like,

UFC doesn't lose any money. I don't think, even if John Jones lost, like it's still the UFC. The brand is the biggest brand in sports history, probably, right? I think it's got to be, you know, when you think about, even like the NFL, right? Like, we still think of like, you know,

those guys are playing football. when you talk about UFC fighters or you talk about guys that are fighting MMA, it's like, are you a UFC fighter or not? You know what I mean? If you're a football player, it's like, it's not, are you an NFL player or not? It's like, you know, okay, you're a football player,

you know, or, you know, it's like, are you an ultimate fighter? That's what they call you, right? It's like Kleenexes, you know? Like they're tissues. They're not Kleenexes or Q-tips, like they're cotton swabs. You know, like UFC's. brand is an absolute monster.

If I'm Dana, I go for it, man. Go for the co-promotion. Well, I also think in the reality is, no, there's going to be a lot of people that being like, you're being a hater right now. I'm not being a hater. I'm just being honest. Like, I still think there's a great world where John Jones beats Francis and Gano. Like, I don't think that that's, you know, John Jones. Yeah, there is. John Jones is the greatest mixed martial artist in history, in my opinion. There's no one John Jones can't beat. Like, I always said the fight that I wish we could have seen years ago was when

when Cain Velasquez was at his peak, him and John would have been a really fun fight because Cain just didn't give a shit. Like, Kane would go out there and fight the biggest guy and just take it to him. And he was such a tremendous wrestler that I was like, that would be a really interesting way to negate John Jones.

Well, I love Francis. Francis isn't a wrestler, though. You know what I mean? He gets on his back against John Jones once. He may not get up again. John Jones will absolutely demolish you on the ground if he gets you there. Yeah, and John is such a smart,

fighter that I again I you know me with stepey I love stepe I adore stepe that's my guy but I wasn't going to pick him to meet john Jones right now I'm just being honest like I would pick john Jones I'd be big john Jones beat anybody uh in miss martial and here's what you do daman if you're gonna co-promote with uh with the pfl you make sure there ain't no usada involved and you get john you just the fucking gills boy

You go out there. And, you know, you give John just the fucking, have him work with the Russian government or something. Like, get this dude used to the fucking max. And, you know, have some fun with it. Yeah. I'm curious, you mentioned it earlier, Matt, because you are a boxing guy.

And I'll fully admit, I know the big fights. I don't know all the fights. I'm not going to sit there and profess that I know boxing in and out like you do. You mentioned there are guys in mixed martial arts who could probably make that transition and maybe even make a way. Now, doing what Inganu did is a rare feat. We're both admitting that probably would never happen again and, you know, probably will never happen again.

Who do you see? Like, if you're looking at guys in the UFC who could be, like, who could make that move into boxing? Not saying anyone, not saying Sean O'Malley's going to be Devin Haney, which that just ain't going to happen. But could make a move. Who are guys that you look at and say, that's a guy who could make the move? I think a lot of them could

Most of them that would come to mind first Or older guys like Max Holloway Demetrius Johnson I think Calvin Qatar You know A real good boxer Brian Ortega But again You know when you're talking about

Moving into boxing Seriously You know like seriously Trying to make a run My audio just mess up No, you're good. You're good. My Siri bubble popped up when I said seriously.

But, you know, if they go trying to make a real run in boxing, you know, you got to start at a younger age, right? Most of them going in to try to fight champions. But those are the guys that come to mind first. You know, you follow all the different weights of stuff better. You might have a better... I mean, I mean... I think, I mean, I think, you know, given enough time, do I think O'Malley could be a pretty decent boxer? Yeah, he's got power, you know, he's got range, he's long.

He's shown pretty good, you know, he's got a pretty good jab, things like that. Now, that's a far cry from going in there fighting Tank Davis or, you know, Devin Haney, but, you know, could he make a wave? Sure, I think that's, I like your Max Holloway idea. I know Max is a little older and maybe towards the, like, latter half of his career, but he's still an incredible strike, incredible boxer man. And that weight class at 145 or whatever is right, or at 147, I think, in boxing. Like, I think that's a possibility. I think Dustin Porre is another guy.

If he really dedicated himself to it, he could go in and make some waves and he's big enough name. And that's my first problem is, you know, these guys around like 145. In boxing, that's 147. You're looking at like Crawford and Spence. Like, nobody's beating those guys. No, no, no, you're not.

You're not beating those guys. It's not going to be a Tyson-Furi situation. You're going to get diced up. and demolished by the, that's the highest, highest level of the sport. Yeah, you're absolutely right. Like, again, I think there's fun things out there. And I think, you know, Francis just opened the door, though. We got to admit that.

Like, he just opened the door to everyone's going to be like, I can do this. Now, you know, can you go fight Terrence Crawford and win? No. That ain't going to happen. But, you know, maybe there's an opportunity where someone gets a chance to fight another bigger name guy. I mean, we got to admit even Francis and Ganu doing it was a, a special thing because he was the UFC heavyweight champion of the world.

Not the average fighter is going to get an opportunity to go over and fight, you know, Dmitry Bivel or Arter Bavre or any of these guys. Like you're not just going to sign up or yeah, Canelo. You're not going to just sign up. I'm going to fight Canelo. You got to be a name to draw interest. And honestly, Sean O'Malley is probably the biggest name of those guys. Like they could really draw a crowd and actually has like a real big fan base right now.

But dude, you don't want to throw them in there with Tank. Davis or or devon hayney and even when you're talking about like tank davis i mean he's a 135 132 or whatever it is in boxing you know so he's still moving up 10 15 pounds before sean comes down one or the other and i mean dude you're not beating tank like like you better go be you better you better go get a hundred amateur boxing matches you know i mean like you bet but we you know to be fair like we said the same thing about Tyson fury and and But that's, again, where I say the heavyweight division is just different. They're just, it's just not as good as we thought it was.

You know, I was kind of on that train that the heavyweight division's coming back and it's starting to actually be good. We got like a great champion in Fury. We got some good contenders and, you know, kind of like back in the day, you know, obviously like the 60s and the 80s were pretty solid. And, I mean, the 90s were pretty solid. But now I'm like, I'm like, no, it's just not that good, bro. But when you look at the lower weight classes, you're looking at, you know, the 147s, 168s, I mean, I mean, like nobody in at 170's going in and fucking with David Benavides.

And he's not even the top guy. You know what I mean? Yeah. What do you think of, what do you think of Usig now? Do you think Usig beats Fury? Dude, I think he has a really, really good shot. you know, it's just tough to say because Usick is so much smaller.

Like he, I mean, he is not a big guy. Like, I've shocked that he's done as well as he has a heavyweight. But only because of his size. Like, he's more skilled than I think any of the heavy weights out there. But I'll tell you what, if I'm putting money on it, I'm putting my money on Usik. Yeah. It's interesting.

It's an interesting matchup. And I'll be curious because, Tyson's going to react one of two ways. He's either going to feel embarrassed and he needs to go out there and prove himself and he really needs to put it on Usik or maybe we're just seeing the decline and downfall of Tyson Fury.

Like it's one of the two because you go out there and you go to a split decision with a guy who's never fought boxing before ever. You better show that either that was a complete fluke and you just had a bad night and, you know, he just got the better you that night or you're on the downcline. You're on the downside of your career.

You're on the decline. because you can't have that kind of performance against other guys like that. And I think Ussick is really good, again, but I'm with you, though. The problem is he's so much smaller. Like when you saw them stand next to each other, they really did look like they're in different weight classes. Like, also, and I do want to give whatever they want to give credit to Ingano to, they mentioned this in the broadcast, which to their credit, Tim Bradley and I think it's Jim Tessitore.

I think this is his name Tessator. The broadcasters are boxing guys. So, of course, they're not as familiar with the MMA guys. but they mentioned one of the things that Tyson Fury loves to do in his fights, he loves to weigh on guys. He pushes them around and wears them out like that. Did you notice he could not do that to Inganu? Ngano was muscling him around.

Ngano was kind of throwing him around. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, what was also interesting, I didn't realize, like, you know, Tyson was younger than him too. Yeah. I didn't realize that Angana was even that old. 37. Yeah. Yeah. And Tyson is, what, 33, 34?

35, 35, I think, 35, yeah. So a couple of years younger. And actually a lot bigger than Ingano. Like, you know, he was a lot bigger than I thought he was going to be versus Ingano. I thought Ingado would be closer to his size. So, yeah, to your point, look, Ussick is just a small guy, man. I would have liked to see him go down a weight versus coming up to heavyweight. you know, because he just, he doesn't look as ripped and treaded and everything at heavyweight. But so far his skill has carried him because he is that skill.

Is he skilled enough to beat a guy as big as Tyson? And, you know, Tyson does have skill too. So, but I'm leaning towards Zucic, man. I think his skill can really take him a long way. Well, that's also why I think that Ingondo needs to strike while the iron's hot. that fight with Anthony Joshua because if Usig beats Fury not to say you can't still go out there

and beat Tyson Fury and fight him again but a lot of the attention of that rematch doesn't necessarily go away but it does lose a little bit of luster if he goes out and gets beat by Usik. Now if he beats Usik then it makes the rematch that much bigger of course but you're kind of playing that you're gambling at that point. Go out and book the Joshua fight because you know it's going to be a big fight you're going to get

paid a huge amount of money and you're going to get to fight again soon versus having to wait maybe, you know, eight months to a year, you know, waiting for Fury to fight Usik and then hope he wins and then you get to book the rematch, you know what I mean? And even then, it's not a guarantee. Fury may be like, I got away with one. I never want to see that dude again. There was no rematch clause.

There was nothing guaranteeing that had to fight again. So, you know, you're gambling on Fury winning and then Fury wanting to fight you again. Why not just go for the big payday and fight Anthony Joshua, a fight that you and I both say he can win and make that big bag of money. Like, why not go do that? Because it is a big fight. And Francis just made himself, as I said earlier, he made himself the A side now. Yeah, yeah.

I don't know if he's still the A side versus Joshua in Europe, though, right? Maybe not, maybe not. But it's, but he's on somewhat equal foot. Yeah, he's on, he's on somebody. Yeah, it's big. I think it's big enough they do a 50-50 split. Yeah. I mean, that's huge.

And chances are it's going to be in solid. Arabia, let's be honest. Like, they're going to, after what they got on Saturday, they're going to pay to get a big fight like that again. Like, they're going to pay a huge amount of money to get those guys over there and put on another show like this. So, yeah, I don't know how all that works exactly because I think Anthony Joshua is with Eddie Hearn, right?

So. He has, but Eddie Hearn was there. I mean, Eddie Hearn was at the fight. He was already talking to the guys. And, you know, Eddie Hearn was before the fight, Eddie Hearn is like, Joshua is not interested in these gimmick fights. And now today he's already pushing for it. He's like, ah, AJ and Fierre, AJ and Ingano is the fight to make.

Well, hey, I get where he's coming from. It was a gimmick fight until Ngano said it is not a gimmick fight, right? Like, if he went out there and knocked him out in a few rounds, you know, nobody be interested in watching Ngano fight anybody else in boxing. So, you know, I totally get where he's coming from. Yeah, absolutely. I mentioned it earlier. We talked about John Jones fighting Francis, which I agree.

And in a perfect world, I'm 100% with. you. That's the biggest fight you could possibly make. But of course, we got the news last week, really, like the day after we did our show, the John Jones suffered a torn pectoral muscle and he's been forced out of his fight with Steve and Miotich. They end up booking your boy, Sergei Pavlovich, the guy you've been super high on, taking on Tom Aspinall. We'll break down that fight next week because we were going to do our full UOC-295 preview next week. We got that fight and of course, Jerry Pajasca and Alex Pereira. We'll talk at, we'll break those down next week on next week's podcast. But Matt, obviously,

that news was unfortunate. And I like what Dana said afterwards with Steepay. He's like, it would be disrespectful to ask Steepa to fight for an interim title. He's the greatest heavyweight of all time. Let's be honest, though. It wasn't about the disrespect to Stepe or interim titles. It was John Jones and Steepa is a massive fight. Don't fuck with it.

Like, they know they can do it. It'll still be a big fight next July. Don't mess with it. Don't take the chance that Sergey goes out and flatline Steepay, which, by the way, I'm not saying he would. I'm just saying he could. And then that goes away. And don't get me wrong.

Sergei Pavlovich is a freaking monster, but Serge and John Jones is just not as big of a fight as John Jones and Steepa. That's what it really was about. They're just like, let's not mess with this. Let's just let them stay and get ready in July. You said it, David. Yeah, you said it perfect. The only thing is, I guess they didn't even ask Stepe.

I wish they would have asked them. You know, like I, you know, because I found it interested that day would say that's disrespectful to ask them. I don't know. I kind of feel like it's disrespectful not to ask him, you know, and if he turns it down to, hey, you know, that's not, you know, we're not going to look at you any differently. But I would have liked to see them as steepe because I think steepe might have wanted it. You know, maybe he needs the money. Who knows, right? Like, you know, who knows his situation?

Or maybe he's hungry to get back in there, you know. So I would like to see them ask Stepe, regardless of whether he took it or not, you know, wouldn't look at him any differently. No, I would. You, they should have at least asked him. Like, I agree with you there. But we both know what's going on. The reality is they didn't ask him. They didn't ask him because they thought maybe he might say yes.

And then they actually had to promote that fight. And then they're risking the big payday with Jones and Steepay next year. And that is still, because. Well, they also, they probably knew that he would say yes. That Steve is probably, I mean, he's training hard, right? Like, he's in shape for getting ready for John Fucka Jones. He's trained his balls off. He doesn't want that to all to go to waste.

So he's probably, they know he's probably going to say yes. They're like, well, we can't risk that one because guess what? John Jones and Stepe is a massive fight. They know it's a massive fight. Also, the other reality is, and I think we were going to talk about this next week, Matt, but the reality is John Jones and Steepa can fight. and I think there's a real good chance both guys retire after, like win or lose. Like there's a chance they both.

Like I think there's less of a chance for John. Like we've talked about many times that John could potentially break that all-time heavyweight title defense record, which would, I mean, not that he's not already submitted as the greatest of all time, but that would just put him in the category all his own. So I think there's a chance John would continue fighting, but I think his steep wins. What's he going to do? You beat John Jones. You're going to go fight Tom Aspinall. you're going to go fight Sergey Pavlovich, you're going to go fight

Jelton Almeida? Like, you just beat John Jones and you're 42. Like, what are you really doing? Like, you've already broke, you already owned the record, you're already considered the greatest heavyweight of all time.

What are you going to do after that? Like, I think there's a real world where John fights Steepey and the winner and the loser retire. Yeah, I agree with you. I'd like to see him got, I'd like see either one of those guys that wins.

Yeah, fight all them. You know, fight the interim champ. fight Jelton Almeda and Pavlovich and Aspen all I want to see him all throw it down man like you know fuck the legacy and the money like just go out there and fight man be a warrior yeah but you and I both know that's not the reality what happens sometimes I mean no it's not and that's you know that's that mentality of my own has got me in trouble at times too you know so you know I just like like seeing fights man and I think um you know I don't know that's just the way I've always felt It was like, yeah, we're fighters.

That's what fighters fight. Yeah, I mean, you take, I mean, you take a risk every single time you step in there, whether you're fighting a nobody or you're fighting a 10-time world champion. Like, you're taking a risk no matter what when you're fighting. You know what I mean? Like, that's kind of the point of fighting. Like, I remember what Islam McAchev said when Charles Olivaire got injured, he called Dana and said, okay, just give me a name.

Like, I'm a fighter. I'm the best in the world. I should be able to beat whoever you throw at me. And guess what? He did. He went out there and knocked out Alexander Volkanowski. in the first round. So I appreciate that mentality.

But I also understand the other side of it, you know, with preparation and, you know, you're getting ready for a world title fight. Like I, I, I, like when John Jones, when that whole debacle happened years ago with Dan Henderson and Chelsaun, I defended John Jones because I said, listen, you're asking a world class fighter who's prepared for one guy for months and you're just asking him on a whim to switch to a different guy on, you know, two weeks nose or 11 days nose or whatever it is. I always say, celebrate the guy.

guys who take short notice fights, but never, ever condemn a guy who doesn't. Because we're supposed to treat this like a professional sport, right? Yeah, I totally agree, man. Yeah, I think that's a really great quote, actually. I couldn't not agree more. That's exactly right, man. Like in my younger days, like I took short notice fights all the time, and now I can't, you know, so, yeah, I don't hate anybody for not doing that.

You know, Islam, when he said that, I think we have to remember the context of that, too, because, you know, he's already in shape. He's ready to fight. Whoever he's fighting is coming in on a week or two notice. So he's going to have the advantage no matter what, right? So it's easy to say that in that point, even though I think Islam would say that at any point also. I think he's always ready to fight. He's a savage man.

But, man, that's a really good quote. We should hang out on the wall. It's true. I said a lot. Like, I just think it's true. Like, you can't. you can't condemn a guy for not taking a short notice fight. Like, you know, like Matt Brown, you are a freaking savage.

No one would ever question that you're a savage. But if they called you and said, hey, we need you to fight in seven days right now. You couldn't do it. Guess what? That doesn't make you a lesser fighter because you just said, I don't want to fight in seven days. Like, that doesn't make any lesser of you because of that. Like, that's just the reality of the situation.

Yeah. And the problem, at least for me, and I'm guessing for other guys, is the way it's not that I couldn't be ready to fight and go in there and give a good show or whatever. but, you know, a lot of us, definitely me, I know a lot of other guys, it takes us four to six weeks just to get the weight off comfortably. Yeah. Well, I think that's why you can get an oosman to go to middleweight and fight Chimae because

he's not cutting the weight. He's not killing himself to get down to the Wednesday. We're both coming up to 155. Yeah, like if that was Oussman taking short notice against Leon again, he probably couldn't do it. Like there's no way he could do it in 11 days notice. He could do it. on he can do a middleweight fight on 11 days notice but not the other way around but yeah just i just i've never believed he did great too like what a what a goddamn professional he was in shape fucking

arguably beat hamza on fucking 12 days notice like what a savage man you got to give so many much props to us mom i love it i absolutely love it but yeah like i'm not surprised the u s who went this way around because the reality is matt as i said i think there's a there's a real world where Steepay and John fight, and they both retire, and then you got to move on. Well, guess what? Now they booked another heavyweight title fight two weeks from now, and they'll move on. Like the winner of Sergey and Tom Aspinall could move on the division. This happened before.

A lot of people forget, this actually happened a couple years ago when George St. Pierre fought Michael Bisping. Robert Whitaker was the interim champion. Robert Whitaker beat YOL Romero to become interim champion. He was interim champion when Michael Bisping fought George St. Pierre. George St. Pierre won and then dropped the belt a month later and went on about his life. And Robert Whitaker never fought him. And then Robert Winnerker went on and became champion and done all things he did.

I think that's what's going to have. I think there's a real good chance. That's what happens here. John Jones comes back International Fight Week, 2024, massive fight with Steepin Mioch, Vegas, all that. And then let's say Sergey goes out and knocks out Tom Aspin all next week. And guess what? Serge is the interim champ. They can build it up just like they do with GSP.

GSP's going to fight Whitaker. It's going to happen. We all knew it probably wouldn't get to happen. It didn't happen. And guess what? Robert Whitaker was just the new champion. And they'll do the same thing here. Sergei or Tom Aspinall will just become champion,

assuming John and or Stipe retires. Like if they just move on, you know what I mean? Like they're setting it up in a way that they can just move on the division without really messing things up, to be honest. Now here's the conspiracy theory. so John Jones gets injured

about a week after it is announced that USADA will no longer be part of the UFC coincidence or no no because I mean they're still doing a doping program like they're still going to be drug testing guys

I don't know how it's going to compare I'm not I'm not promoting the conspiracy by the way it sound like I am I'm saying this is the conspiracy out there I don't buy that. Because here's the thing, and I mean this in all sincerity and my own personal adoration for Stephen Miochich, I don't think, I think John Jones was ready and I think John Jones would have won. Like, unless, again, I'm not saying he couldn't lose, Stephen Miochich could absolutely knock out

John Jones, absolutely win that fight. I'm just saying on paper, John Jones, in my opinion, would have won that fight. I think you really just got injured. Because if you look at his career, John's only ever dropped out of one fight for injury ever in his career. You know what I mean? Like it was a freakish thing. It happened.

I like the conspiracy theory, but I don't, I don't subscribe. I don't subscribe to it. I'm totally with you. And, you know, if you're a betting man, I mean, I think the odds are probably for John Jones in that fight, right? Like if you just look at, like you said on paper, just matchup-wise, you know, it is MMA, right?

Right. So, you know, fuck, nothing makes sense in this sport. Right. We can only go, we can only pick who we think is going to win based off of the history. And that history never has anything to do with what happens on that night, it seems like. But that's all we can base our pick on. So if we base the pick off the history, we pick John Jones. But that's like one of the most coolest things about this sport. Right. Like when you watch football, I just start getting into football this year more because my kids are into it a lot.

And, you know, so every Sunday they're with me. But they're like, Dad, I'm going to watch the game. I'm like, all right, we'll watch. And so I kind of start getting into it. And I guess it sounds like this season's been a little bit wild. But, you know, you can take the history. You know, this team beat this team. They got a good defense, good offense.

You can add all that up. And there's a very high probability of who's going to win, right? in this sport, like you could, all the paper could line up and, you know, you could take this guy that has never even fought in the UFC before and come in and beat the hell out of the champion,

you know, because it's MMA, not because it adds up and not because it makes sense, not because it's supposed to work that way. It's because we got the most brand, it's like a fucking slot machine with this sport, you know? I know how good, like, in reality,

I know how good Alex Prairie is, but in reality, a guy in his eighth professional fight and his, like, third UFC fight should not become middleweight champion. Like, that doesn't compute, right? Like, it should not really happen. And I know, yes, of course, he's an incredible striker. I'm not discounting that.

I'm just saying, like, in reality, nobody should be able to do that. And he did it. He beat, knocked out, you know, Israel out of Sonia, who was at that time, number one or two, pound for pound in the sport, you know, like that shit. I don't care their history. I don't care how good he was.

I've seen lots of great kickboxers come over to M. get their dick knocked in the dirt, okay? Doesn't mean you're, I saw, I saw Kululowrowntri knock out Go Kansaki. And go Katsaki. That's the one that came in my mind. Go Kansaki is as world class as a kickboxer as you will ever find. He got absolutely way late when he fought Kulowlo Roundtree.

So don't tell me just because Alex was a world class kickboxing. He just had, he just had Adasanya's number. No, he was skilled and he didn't. But he shouldn't have done it. That shouldn't have happened. Sean Strickland, by all accounts, even as many fights as Sean Strickland as, shouldn't have beaten Israel out of Sonia. We both said, like, it's not going to happen.

And then guess what happened? It happened. You're right. MMA is wildly unpredictable. And you know what? And I think my prediction is that it's going to become more predictable because we're going to have more athletes like John Jones, which before you even get into that, look,

that's where you have to give extra credit. to John Jones, Demetrius Johnson, GSP, Anderson Silva, the guys that were very long-term consistent because that is the game here that we're playing. Like, it's a new puzzle every time, and your style could have such a great style, but just one bad style matchup could ruin the whole thing. And the way that these guys have done it consistently for so long

and at such a high level fighting the top. guys and you got to give even more credit to john jones regardless of what you think of them as a person like dealing with all of these outside issues and still staying consistent i mean it's a little bit like psychopathic but that's you know in a good way you know um and you know you got to give the same type of credit to like a gsp who was dominant for so long but was on that clean path the whole time right like he stayed on it yeah i'm sure he had temptation every day to get pulled off of it or Demetrius Johnson and

you know the point is this all of these guys the fact that they're that consistent for that long is a seriously in this sport is a serious achievement absolutely and when you say

psychopathic in a weird way I take that as a compliment because I think every fighter on some level is that right like you have to be a little you can't be all the way there in the head to want to go into a cage and battle another person. You know, you got to have it, you got to, you always got to be a little bit off in that regard.

But I think that psychopathic comment is actually true in John's case because no matter what, no matter what that guy had going on, and I'm not saying that a lot of it wasn't his fault because it absolutely was, but somehow, some way he still stepped in there and absolutely wrecked shop against the best guys. I mean, to be, to do what he did,

like where he was supposedly doing cocaine, three weeks before fighting Daniel Cormier, one of the highest level mixed martial artists in history, and to go out there and beat him pretty once, you know, pretty dominant fashion, that's insane. That should never happen. John Jones is a freak amongst freaks.

And then George St. St. St. Pierre is another one. He was a striker, his entire career. He got knocked out, had a bad night with Matt Sarah, adapted his style, and became a world-class wrestler. A world-class. I'm telling you of George St. decide he wanted to do Olympics. I'm not saying he would have won a gold medal. I'm saying if he

really wanted to become an Olympic wrestling, he could have done it. And he didn't wrestle really until he was probably in his 20s. That never happened. If he started at a young age and dedicated his life to wrestling, he'd been in gold medalists. Oh yeah, 100%. I don't doubt it for one second. 100%. But I'm saying even at that level, like even at that stage of his career when he started wrestling, he probably could have like gotten to an Olympic team. Like that's how freakish of an athlete he was. You know what I mean? Demetrius John. My biggest knock on Demetrius has always been. He just didn't have the same level of competition,

but in terms of skill, he's maybe the most skilled fighter ever. Like, putting it all together, I don't know there's ever been a more skilled mixed martial artist than Demetrius Johnson. He's a freak of nature. Like, he's just a freak of nature. Yeah, and I know a lot of people,

they knock on his level of competition, but when his level of competition did step up, Henry Sehudo, for instance, you know, he lived up to the hype. Yeah. I mean, I know Henry beat him once, but, you know, he beat Henry once too. Yeah, and Henry beat him once by split decision. It wasn't like Henry went out there and, you know, dominated.

And that's not a knock, by the way. I'm just saying, like, he didn't go out there and absolutely demolished Demetri's Johnson. He'd beat him by split decision. Right, which Demetri's did to him the first time, pretty much wrecked shop. Yeah. And that's the thing is, you know, he did have some very, very high-level competition. He did. And he stepped up.

And he showed that everything that he was doing to the lower level of competition guys wasn't a flu. And then he goes over to one championship and he's fighting guys who are 20, 30 pounds heavier than him. And he's still beating them. I mean, which ridiculous. Yeah. And even, fuck, man, even that first round that he had with Rod Tang where he could only do Moy Thai. I mean, that was impressive. Like, that's fucking Rod Tang you're talking about.

Yeah. I mean, I know he choked him out in the second round, which was. pretty much guaranteed. You know, if it got there, we knew that was going to happen. But the way that he hung in the first round, and the way he, I don't know that he completely, like,

lost the first round, you know? Like, he's a, that's fucking sick, bro. That's fucking Rod Tang. That dude is a monster. You do not do that to Rod Tang. Like, the best Muay guys in the world can't do that to Rod Tang.

Right. Now, to be fair, if I think if it was like five rounds of Moytai, you know, I don't, I'm not sure what would, happened there, but it's hard to imagine that, you know, Demetius would beat Rod Tank, but I'd love to see DJ do

some of the Moitai in one. And he also just won the worlds, too. Yeah, he just, yeah, yeah, no, DJ's just, he's a free, he's another one. He's a freaking nature. Like, there's nothing that guy can't do. Yeah, I trained with him when he was an amateur. I was out

at AMC, and everybody was talking about how great he was going to everybody knew then. I mean, I think he had his first amateur fight when I was out there. And everybody knew right then he was going to be a champion. And the amazing thing about him is he was still working 40 hours a week driving a forklift. Like that's how he was surviving all the way up until, I think until he won the title.

I know he was still in the UFC when he was driving a forklift 40 hours a week. I mean, this guy is a special son of a bitch. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's unreal, like that kind of talent. Speaking it real quick before we get out of here, I interviewed Jonathan Haggerty a couple days ago. Oh, you should have brought me in on that. Yeah, he was, he's fighting, he's fighting the kickboxing title against Fabricio Androge, the

MMA. Oh, I can't believe you left me hanging on that one. I know, I got a couple of battles. I got an opportunity to talk to Jonathan Haggerty. That dude's a savage too, man. I was watching some of his highlight video, some kick. And I was like, good God. Haggurty is a special, special guy.

And especially coming from the UK, going over there, beating those ties away. he does. When he beat Nongo, that absolutely blew me away. I did not expect that. I mean, even back in the day when he beat Sam A, I was surprised,

but I knew, you know, also Sam A is a little bit older and probably didn't really care that much. But the way that he beat Nongo recently, like, like,

like, I mean, he beat the hell out of Nong. He didn't beat him. He knocked him out. Like, he knocked him out. He didn't just beat him.

He knocked him out. Well, I mean, he beat the hell out of him. Yeah, like, Yeah, I mean, that is impressive work, man. Jonathan Haggerty is an absolute special guy.

I can't wait to see who's he fighting next. Fabricio, like Josh. You know, that's not a great fight, I don't think. You know, a pretty easy fight for, not easy fight for Haggerty, but, you know, that's something he should win. Very winnable fight for Haggerty, but a good name. He's a champion, and he's a one mixed martial arts champion, so you get that little bit of name recognition on there.

Yeah. But I talked to him and I immediately thought of you because I was like, I mentioned Matt knows Jonathan Haggerty. Oh, yeah. I've been watching him for years, man. Even before he was in one, before he was really famous, I've been watching him for a very long time. Like I said, I knew a long time ago he was going to be a special talent, man.

Yeah, I can't believe you left me hang on the interview. I know, I know. You chatted with them a little bit, talk shop a little bit, talk about clinching a little bit, some elbows. I've learned a lot watching him, actually. He's one of those guys that, you know, I actually, there's a few, not a ton, but there's a few guys. I don't watch a lot of MMA to learn. You know, you get little things here and there, watch M.A.

But I take all the traditional sports and learn from them. And Jonathan Haggerty is one of those guys that I watch and I learn things. And I practice, you know, basically imitating what he does on a regular basis. Well, maybe everything goes well for him this weekend, maybe we'll get him on the show afterwards. We can have a little breakdown with Matt Brown talking to Jonathan Haggerty, because I'm sure that would be an educational piece for everybody because that would be an amazing conversation.

I would love to. Yeah, don't leave me hanging. I will not. I promise. With Amex Platinum, $400 in annual credits for travel and dining means you not only satisfy your travel bug, but your taste buds too. That's the powerful backing of Amex. apply. It's hockey season and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get a nice rank on Uber Eats. But iced tea, ice cream,

or just plain old ice? Yes, we deliver those. Goaltenders, no, but chicken tenders, yes. Because those are groceries and we deliver those too, along with your favorite restaurant food, alcohol and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability. varies by region. CAP for details. Matt, what else you got going on? I know you're always busy.

You're just in Jersey. So you're always traveling. You always got a million things going on. What's going on this week? Yeah, well, I was in Jersey last week. They're doing this, you know, this team competition for MMA fighters and called MMA Pro League.

You know, hopefully it would be a good thing. We'll see kind of how it works out. But it was a fun weekend. Had one of my guys up there and he dominated, had his first debut, amateur fight. But he's going to be an absolute killer. His name's Gavin, Baysden, and he's just going to be an absolute, he's one of my best

training partners. And he just wanted to wait a long time to fight. He's just one of those guys, you know, that he was like, I want to be really good before I started stepping in there. And he was ranked number two in the state wrestling here in Ohio. I've been training clinch with me and stand up with me for a few years now and doing Jiu-Jitsu every day, just an absolute killer. had a great time with him.

The other guy was kind of funny story. You know, so they weighed in. It's the same day way in. They weigh in, face off. Then we come to the locker room about an hour or two later, get the physicals done. And the guy literally just walks out. He literally, I'm just standing there watching.

I thought he's going to the restroom. And he just leaves a hotel. He's like, I'm not fighting. so my other guy didn't get to fight that's wild he just left he literally just left like we thought he went to the restroom

you know and then I think you know it's 20 30 minutes later we're like man your opponent like never came back from the rest room bro like is he puke in or taking a shit or what and someone went and check the restroom he wasn't there and dude no one can find him

and yeah he never he never came back did you ever hear what happened to him did he just peace out or what happened Never heard, never heard. I never really followed up either. But, you know, I think it's a testament to the how intense this sport really is. And people don't realize, you know, how fucking scary this sport is, man. You know, when you step in there, like, I don't know, the guy that had had fights before,

so he'd been in there. He knew what it was. He knew what he was getting into. you know, this sport test your manhood. Oh, dude. All your balls, man. I remember years and years ago when I was living in Cincinnati and I was actually training at that time.

And I love mixed martial arts. I mean, I think that's pretty clear. I love the sport. And some promoter in Ohio, and I can't remember who it was. It wasn't like a no-name guy, but it was like a local show in Cincinnati. And he's like, hey, we're doing a show. And there's a guy who lost his opponent.

He's not very good. I'm being honest with you. He's like an older guy. He needs an opponent for, I can't, I want to say it was amateur. Maybe I can't, it had to be amateur. But anyways, he's like, he needs an opponent. Like, I don't, like, because I had known him a little bit through like the MMA circles. And he's like, do you want to fight him?

Like, do you want to go in and have a fight? Now, I was in my 20s. You know, I was in good shape. Yeah, me. I was in good shape. And this was, this was, this was, God, this was years ago. This was many, many years ago. And so he's like, do you want to fight?

And I thought about it for a split second. I was like, you know what? Like I've trained. I was working with my buddies in college who were in wrestling and football. And I was like kind of teaching them. Like I was learning and kind of teaching them. So I was feeling pretty confident about myself, right? And I just thought about it for a day.

And I was like, you know what? I'm just, I'm not built for, man. Like, I'm just not. Like, I love this sport. That's why I have so much admiration for fighters. Because in that moment, I'm like, I love it. But it's just not me, man. I'm just not, I'm not that dude.

Like, if you, if you, if you, if you, if you approach me on. a street and I have to defend myself. I will defend myself. I will fucking fight you. But like, I'm just not, that's just not me. I love this. I'm just not, huh? Me? I mean, I'll lose, but I mean, I'll try for like eight seconds until it's over. But like, I, like, I just, in that moment, I'm like, you know what? It's just not for me. Like, I love this sport. I just, I don't have it in me, man. I'm just not that dude. Like, I'm just, and I, that's why I have such admiration for fighters, because I can admit I'm not that guy. Like, I, I, I'm not.

I love this sport, but it takes a special person to step in there and do this, especially at your level, Matt, but I'm saying, like, at any level. Like, I'm just not that dude. Like,

I appreciate anybody who does it. Because when I thought about it, I was like, you know what? I like training. I enjoy doing this. I enjoy doing that. But I'm just,

I'm not, that's not me. I'm not built for it. And I can admit that. I'm not, I'm not like denying that. I fully admit that. That's why I have so much admiration

for guys like yourself who would like love doing it and you're amazing at doing it because it takes so, much to get in there, man. Like, it takes a lot of fucking balls to get in there and do that. For sure. And there's, there is a line, too, between balls and stupidity. So here's the interesting thing, right? So I go in last weekend is a good case to this. Last weekend. So I'm coaching Team Ohio, right? I bring two, there's five guys on the team.

I only got two guys coming from my gym, mainly because he wasn't. wasn't really trying to buy flights for everybody. And, you know, it's an amateur fight, right? He's not trying to go broke, buying flights in hotels and food for everybody and everything. So I get assigned guys that the promoter had pulled in, right? So I ended up with two other guys that I never met before, three other guys that I never met before. And, you know, had to fight this night, right? one guy he was a ray longo guy uh sombo guy from georgia friends with marab um just a you know a real killer right

like he belonged in there uh one guy i don't know he he put up a good fight um definitely uh had some experience so fair enough one guy my third guy stupidity got him in the cage this was encouraged this was stupid so the guy comes in he had to make weight he has to put on weight

he weighed in the pre-weigh ends in the morning and he's like three pounds underweight okay he's already chunky so I come out see him about 10 minutes later and he's chugging a gallon of milk which I have no idea where to fuck

he got a gallon of milk in 10 minutes from So he had it in the hotel room already. So he's chugging a gallon of milk. And I started talking to him. I said, you know, what's your experience? Whatever he's like, well, I train my backyard. He said, my dad trains me. He's a Marine.

And then like, I'm like, okay, like, do you do jiu-jitsu? He's like, no, no, no. He said, all that stuff's bullshit. You don't, you don't, how did he say it? He said, you don't train single sports. You have to train everything. He said the Chinese had it right. Like, you know, start quoting the Jekundo shit.

Oh, my God. The Chinese had it right. And I said, okay, well, what's your game plan against this guy? This guy's a good wrestler. And he's, the dude he was fighting was just absolutely jacked, probably juiced out of his fucking mind, right? Just shredded like a Greek guy. And I said, well, what's your game plan?

And he goes, I'm going to do the six-inch punch to his solar plexes. Oh, my God. And at that point, I said, there's no hope here. And so I'm supposed to coach this guy. So I said, okay, well, I'll give you two things. My first thing I'm going to tell you is you probably shouldn't fight this guy. Like you should probably just go home right now, forget about this. Number two, if you're going to do this, I'm going to teach you a sprawl.

And that's it. Because this dude's going to take you down. He's going to choke you the fuck out. he wasn't interested in learning a sprawl and wasn't interested in going home so he went out and got choked out oh my god so exactly what you said happened happened exactly but it was one of the most comical things but that's the point the moral of the story is not all of the guys that step into octagons have balls and courage and bravery

there is a niche, a group, maybe a small group, maybe a large group, I'm not sure of guys who go in because they're too fucking dumb. There's the difference. I know I'm not that dude, and I'm also, I'm a pretty smart guy. I'm not dumb enough to know,

think I can go in there and just fucking fight somebody. Well, that there, I respect also. I respect that you're not dumb enough to go in there. You're smart enough to wreck. This is where, okay, if a guy comes into my gym on day one says, I want to be a fighter, what's your advice? My first advice to every person that says that is know yourself, know who the fuck you are. Like, know what you're going in there for, why you're doing this, know what your strengths

and weaknesses are. I do a swap profile of my fighters, strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, and threats. When I break down fights, I do a swap for me and the opponent. compare the two. But the point is that you got to know who you are and what your purpose is, right? Like, are you going in because you want to have fun? Like, there's guys, like, one of my, my guy that was fighting last weekend that his guy backed out, he didn't really care, right?

Like, he's not trying to be a UFC fighter. He actually wants to coach guys and wants to get the experience and learn how to fight. He has a great job. Like, he makes, you know, 100K a year, you know, So he knows himself, right? He knows what he wants to do. My other guy, Gavin, like I said, he's a, at least a college level wrestler, you know, maybe an all-American level.

I've seen him go with all-Americans and do fine. You know, and he wants to be in the UFC. So he's playing a smart game. And I sat down and talked to him with, talked with him about it. Like he wants to get good before he goes in there, you know, and make the most maximize his opportunities, take his time and be a great fighter, right? So the point is, like, you got to know all these things before you start going in there. And that's where I say there's a difference between courage and stupidity.

When you know the reason why you're going in there, it still takes courage to get in there. When you don't know all those reasons why you're going in there, if you don't know yourself, don't know a strategy or, you know, some sort of game plan, right? even if your game plan is like I'm a sprawling brawl and knock them out with a flying knee or an uppercut, George Mosved outside, which is not a smart strategy, but it's still a strategy, right? Like you know who you are and what you're doing.

That I respect. When you don't have that, you're going in there on stupidity. If you think that, and to be fair, the reason that I know all this, this is all based on experience. Because I was that stupid guy. Like, I went in completely full, my first fight that I'd actually trained for, I trained for two weeks.

I fought a guy that was 12 and 1 in San Shou. And I didn't know what San Shou was. I thought it was kickboxing. I didn't know you could do take downs. So I was that stupid guy. Or even my first fight, like I was coped up and I was parting and, you know, when never trained a day in my life and I went in and fought that night, right? That's stupidity.

over time, I started training and realized that it takes courage to get in there when you're not on cocaine. That's the, I had my quote today. That's the quote you need to put up on your own. It takes courage to go in there when you're not on cocaine. Right, right. But you see what I'm saying, though. It's not like you, I hate, hate, hate, when people say, I respect everybody. that gets in the octagon.

No. Like there are so fucking many guys who go in there because they're stupid. Like I didn't deserve any respect to myself when I first started. No one should have respected me for having the bravery to take a line of cocaine and go fight a man.

No, you're absolutely right. You're absolutely right. And when I say, let me be clear, when I say I'm referencing kind of like the UFC level, like of that, you know, when you get to that level I have so much respect because it does take a lot

to get to that level you know what I mean I think for the most part yeah but then there are even aberrations in that right you got seeing punk stupidity it wasn't courageous of him to go

and there was stupid of him yeah and we saw what happened when he did yeah yeah you know I mean there are you know Mike Jackson you know there there are anomalies even

at the highest level, which, in my opinion, you know, I wish the UFC would never have done that kind of stuff and allowed that stupidity, you know, but it's their business, not mine. Well, and that's the other thing you got to realize with CM Punk, like, he got the opportunity because he was seeing punk. Like, you know what I mean? He got it because he had a name. He had no business in there. He was the lowest, the lowest level guy you could ever put in there and try to call it a UFC

fire. Like, it was abysmal. It was horrendous. And the reason I call it stupid is because, like, he went in the gym and trained for it. He knew where he was at. You know what I'm saying? Like, he had real trainers. He had the money to pay real trainers.

Like, he knew where his level was. And he would have been better off. You know, if I were seeing punk, I would have done my own promotion and brought in some retard to beat up. Like, just, you know, if you just want to fight, right? Like, just bring in some idiot that you can beat. put on your own promotion. You know, you're not going to, maybe you don't make the payday that, that you get with the UFC, but you get a good payday, right?

See if Punk puts on a show, there's going to be a big turnout. You could do it in a small arena. Yeah. Go in there and pick some retard off the street and beat them up and see, now you get to see what it feels like. Yeah. I know his dream was like, oh, I want to fight in the UFC. You know, I hear that dream all the time.

I've seen so many guys come through the gym and their goal is to get to the UFC and I fucking hate that. And the reason I hate that is because that was my goal. Again, I can base it off my own experience. I was that idiot that started the wrong way and my only goal was to get to the UFC and then I got to the UFC and I realized that, you know,

that's a low goal. That doesn't mean shit. Like UFC doesn't mean anything to be there. like everybody that has a decent amount of talent can get to the UFC I mean back in my day I think it's a little harder than it is now but there are many paths to the UFC these days like if you have some talent like you can get to the UFC but that's a low goal if you're not training to be UFC champion of the world then I'm not really interested in training you yeah yeah it's uh it's true and yeah like when looking back on it like I know we this

is going back to our old podcast days that got us on ESPN once upon the time on Sports Center when you were talking about CM Punk, but can you think about it now like the mismatch of CM Punk and Mickey Gall, like how much of a mismatch that was? Like, I mean, it played out like that in the fight. But like, good Lord, like that is literally the biggest, that's a bigger mismatch than Fury and Inganu. Yeah, it turns out it was. Well, and that is one of the difference too.

and in MMA, you know, the mismatch can be, I don't know, how would you say it? Like, it can be exaggerated greatly in MMA, right? In boxing, the worst guy in the world, that's the difference between striking and grappling, right? And striking, the worst guy in the world still has that puncher's chance, right? Like, you can throw a punch and just coincidentally land. There is that chance. obviously, you know, the higher level you get the lower that chance becomes. And, you know, but there's still always that's why, like, people want to watch Connor

and Floyd, like there, because there is that chance. And Connor even hit Floyd once, right? So, you know, he got that one a million chance and it worked. But when you start adding in all the aspects with, particularly with the grappling, which is why jiu-jitsu and wrestling are such powerful sports, those remove your chances immediately. Like if I'm better at you at Jiu-Jitsu, you know, with the same weight and I get on top of you, like, it's over for you. Like, you don't have a chance anymore. You know what I'm saying? Like, like your chances on the feet, you know, might be 100 to 1. But once I get you on the ground,

if you don't know what you're doing, if I'm that much better than you, like that 100 to 1 just went 100 to zero. Like you literally have zero chance. Yeah, that's why I always say, and it will always say wrestling is the best base for mixed martial arts because you don't generally learn how to wrestle quickly. You're not going to out wrestle bow nickel. Like, you're not. Like, you know what I mean? Like, if he gets you on the ground and he's on top of you, chances are it's going to be a really bad night for you because you're not going to get out from underneath that dude. Like, that is why it is the best base for mixed martial arts. And obviously, wrestlers can be beaten. They have been beaten plenty of times but I'm just saying if you're looking for the basest level of mixed martial arts you just

want to have that one layer to start with wrestling is the one to start with because it's the hardest to learn it is a grueling grueling sport to learn and guys who've done wrestling for the most part outside of george st pierre have been doing it since they're fucking four years old you know like you're not they've been doing it for 20 years and they're like 20 then they're 22 years old like they've been doing it their entire lives my only i don't know if i'd say argument i guess have maybe addition to that is I would say it's not necessarily wrestling that's the best base for me but grappling is the best base for me I hate when people I should say I hate it but I kind of disagree when people just narrow it down to wrestling because you know we also have judo

sombo yeah no you're right you're right you're right I say when I say wrestling I mean wrestling versus like and don't again I don't want the entire jiu jihitsu community to come from my head but like as great as jiu jihitsu is wrestling is wrestling is is a better base than jujitsu, Brazilian jiu-jitsu. So even when you take jihist, again, that's why I take it, I say grappling, because the difference in the problem, I would say, with jiu-jitsu as a base, when people think of traditional jiu-jitsu and sport jihitsu, you know, it is very like guard, butt-scooting oriented.

But if we, if I call it grappling, you know, then we're going to take away all that butt-scooting, right? Yeah. So jih Tijuana can be a great base also, like a Damian Maya, right, where a lot of his jiu-jitsu was based on, you know, wrestling and taking you down and being on top. So it can still be a powerful just as good as wrestling or grappling as a whole as a base.

It just depends on the style and the way that you were taught and the way you were brought up because there is a whole group of sport jih Tjitsu out. there that ruins it, you know, when we talk about jujitsu. But the old school traditional, real jiu-jitsu is take them down and get on top. So it has a huge take-down component to it. That's why I always liked one of my favorite guys ever to do jiu-jitsu transitioning into MMA and become like a high-level grappler and a high-level fighter. At his peak was Jake Shields. Like I always love Jake Shields because he was an incredible wrestler and he would fuck you up in

jutsu like he would do both like you could not survive with that guy if he got on top of you um he even managed to out grapple in some exchanges when he fought damien may of all people like that is like he completely out grapple he won that fight and he took i mean he took down dan henderson repeatedly and and you know put him on the bat and and out wrestled a freaking olympian Olympic wrestler and dan henderson so that was always my model of like the perfect mix of jiu jitzu and wrestling which you're talking just to say grappling was a guy like jake shills because he could wrestle you and then he'd fuck you up on the ground. Right.

And that's where, again, I kind of just say grappling. Yeah, I know you're right. You're right. As a whole, like you have to know how to grapple or the striking means nothing. Right. So even when you take a guy as great as Adasanya, you know, he had to learn how to grapple, right, to be able to transition to MMA. And he got really good at it.

you know, and his grappling was obviously a defensive style, but he still had to learn grappling, not necessarily wrestling, not necessarily jih Tzu, not necessarily Samba, not necessarily judo or catch wrestling. You know, there's so many different styles. And that's why I believe, I always just sum it up to, look, it is grappling is what we're doing. And that's what you have to be, no question, like you have to be very, very, very good at it. You better have the right amount of courage and balls because you can't be stupid about those things. That's exactly right. Well, that's, you know, that's a great point with, you know, to add on to that. Maybe we'll end with this is, you know, the, when you do grappling,

jih Tzu wrestling, in particular, Ensemble, and all those grappling sports, like you recognize how little your spastic movements help you, right? You realize, that all this, you know, you have to have a brain, right? Because you could do boxing and jih Tzu and kind of be an idiot and get away with a lot of, like there's some really idiotic guys that get to a decent level in those sports, you know, not a high level, right, but a decent level. You know, you got like even like the Ricardo Mayorgas, right, who never had any skill, right?

But it got to a really high level. but you never ever see that in any of the grappling sports right you never see the myorgia types you know what I'm saying yeah no you're right you're absolutely right I mean you'll get you'll get I mean wrestling jiu jitza and you'll get absolutely destroyed you will absolutely get handled like it's no it's not even like it's not like it's funny because I talked to David Taylor a few weeks ago and I was talking about like David Taylor manhandle bone in on these on these on these

interviews. Yeah, David Taylor manhandled Bo Nicol. Like, that should tell you how level David Taylor is Olympic gold medalist. And Bo Nichols really freaking good. But David Taylor is the next level. If I remember, David Taylor was the main reason why Bo Neckle didn't go for the Olympics or the world.

He tried. He tried because he went to the Olympic trials that in the finals, David Taylor handled him. And that was pretty much the end of his wrestling career was at that point, because he couldn't get past David Taylor. I mean, for the longest time, Kyle Dake couldn't get past Jordan Burroughs. Like, that was his problem for the longest time. Jordan Burroughs was just, you couldn't fuck with him.

And so Dake ended up going to a different weight class because, like, he couldn't get, and Jordan Burroughs was, like, that's just what it was. Daniel Cormier, Daniel Cormier, is one of the best wrestlers America's produced, but he couldn't get through Cail Sanderson. Like, Cal Sanderson was just a bad motherfucker. Like, that's not a knock on Daniel Cormier. That's just because Cal Sanderson was in the way. Yeah, it's just bad timing.

Right. That's all it is. But yeah, but that's, I guess, the ultimate point is, like, you can, again, you just don't see that in the wrestling, grappling sports. You don't see guys, there's some odd balls out there, right? There's the, you know, the, I don't know, there's some oddball guys done to really coming to mind, but that do decent, right? you know, have odd styles and stuff. But you never, ever going to see, you know, a spastic or wild guy have any success in the grappling sports. And I think that's one of the most powerful things about it.

It teaches you, like, discipline and fundamentals. And I think that goes a long way with MMA. And I think that that probably has more of an impact. on an MMA fighter's career or, you know, as grappling as a base, then the actual, well, I guess, yeah, the techniques too. So I don't know.

I lost what I'm saying. No worries. Well, all I want to know is by next time we do our show next week is we do our UFC 295 preview. I want to see you can track down the guy who ran out of the arena and left your boy hanging with our five. I'm just kind of curious, whatever happened to him.

Like, did he disappear? He get picked up by aliens? Like, what happened? I would just be curious to know. Like, yeah, he just, He's like, I saw the other guy and I was like, fuck this. And I just left. I think he shit his pants.

I want to know what happened to him. I want to know what happened. The guy just left the arena. Nah, fuck him. That's hilarious. All right. That's our show for this week. We appreciate everyone tuning in.

Matt, where can everyone check you out, support you, the people who support you? I'm the immortal Twitter, Instagram. And you can check the links in the bio on Instagram. And I got the Redwood Sanas on there. Got the Immortal. coffee. We got some other stuff on there. My Airbnb's, I think I'll put those on there.

Nice. Actually, I'm not sure if I have put them on there yet. We're building out our website for those right now. Nice. Yeah, lots of things going on, man. Stay in the Immortal Love Palace. When you go down and stay in the Airbnb, the Immortal Love Palace, I've nicknamed it now. It's a very romantic love palace.

See, that's what I'm saying. It's the immortal love house. I also have a beach house now, too. See, look at this. So you go stay in the immortal beach house. It's just the brand name. You got to keep it in the brand name. I'm working on it, bro.

Mortal vacation rentals. I don't know. I like it. I like it. We'll workshop it here on the show. We'll figure out something good. As always, we appreciate everyone tuning in. We'll be back next week with our UFC 295 preview.

Make sure check us on all your favorite podcast platforms, Apple Podcast, Spotify. And, of course, over on the best website in the world, MMAFighting.com. And we'll see you next week for another edition of the Fighter versus the writer. Thanks for tuning in. We'll see you then.