MMA Fighting - Fighter vs Writer: Matt Brown Explains Why UFC Passing Over Movsar Evloev for Title Shot Is Just Business as Usual

Episode Date: May 28, 2025

On the latest episode of The Fighter vs. The Writer, Matt Brown and Damon Martin react to the latest news in the featherweight division where Movsar Evloev revealed he’s not getting the next title shot against Alexander Volkanovksi plus we discuss what happens to Sean O’Malley if he falls to Merab Dvalishvili again at UFC 316 plus much more Subscribe to MMA Fighting Check out our full video catalog Like MMA Fighting on FacebookFollow on Twitter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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but we're here for it. So download the app today and get zero delivery fees on your first three orders. Instacard, groceries that over deliver. Service fees exclusions and terms apply. You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. Back to the fighter versus the writer. He is UFC legend Matt Brown.

I am Damon Martin and we are back. We actually have UFC fights coming up in a matter of days. We had an off week last week, and then we get into UFC 316 next week. Matt, you are coming back from your trip to the Great White North of Canada. How was Calgary? Dude, Calgary was awesome, man.

What a beautiful place. It's like the Denver of Canada, basically. You know, it's like right at the foothills of the Rockies, and we went up in the mountains for a day. And it reminded me very much of Denver where I used to live. It was an awesome time until, I think I told you the story, you know, until I was on my way back. and they thought that I was somehow affiliated with the hell's angels

and got stuck in TSA and they went through my phone for like an hour and was interrogating me and I missed my flight and yeah and I already had to get up at like 3.30 in the morning to catch my original flight and then yeah so I didn't I got didn't get home till like midnight and it's just stupid man like and the worst part about the thing. I'm sitting there being interrogated or you know or for example I'm like waiting on my phone while they're searching it and like

these TSA agents like other ones come in like fresh ones coming on their shift they recognize me they're like yo bro what's up man can I get a picture I'm like no motherfucker give me the fuck out of here no you can't have a picture and no I don't want to talk to you either unless you're able

to get me the hell out of here that's wild yeah you're sitting there waiting for them to clear you and they're like oh bro I know you are you are you take a photo while you're in handcuffs back there? Yeah, I'm sitting there, you know, with a missed flight. And I was with my girlfriend, too. So she had to go, you know, well, she didn't have to. But, you know, she went ahead and got on the flight.

And I'm sitting there, like, by myself for like three hours being interrogated. Like I'm, I don't know, like a motorcycle gang member, which is like, I was like, wait, what? I think of all the times I traveled, I think I got stopped once. Canada and there was no reason for it. Like, they just didn't. So this was, it was in Canada, but it was the U.S. customs. Oh, okay. I got you.

Yeah, I got stopped in Canada once. And I can't remember, like maybe they just didn't like the answer I gave it customs or something, but they pulled me off to the side and I had to sit in a room and they went through all my stuff. And, like, I didn't get until like maybe an hour, but it was so annoying. And I was just like, this sucks. Like, I know I didn't do anything. Like, this is just like, it just takes time.

and that's got to be worse. You're coming back to America. Like usually that's where you breathe through, like when you're coming to America. Right. That's where it's supposed to be easy. Like, I'm an American citizen, bro. Like, I don't do shit wrong.

And then the, and then, you know, if they want to add, I don't know, you know, salt to the wound. It's like, I got to sit there for three hours and miss my flight.

I'm like, bro, like, you're going to give me a fucking first class ticket now? Like, you should hook me to fuck up. You know what I mean? Like, no, we get you an economy fair, you know? And then,

and then, you know, so I get to the gate and I'm like, hey, can I, you know, change my seat? Like, you know, it's a freaking middle seat. Can I get a better seat? She's like, no, I sold out. And she didn't know, you know, why I was in that situation. She's like, you know, that's why you shouldn't buy the regular fare. You should buy like the upgrade or whatever so you can change your seat.

She's like, we can't make changes to this. I'm like, I didn't buy this fucking thing. The fucking your goddamn TSA bought it. Where were you at? Where did you fly into an America where you had to get stuck? No, that was another little trip. So originally, so, okay, so it was a United flight from Calgary to Chicago to Columbus. But then the United flight got delayed, so they had to, that we would have missed our connection,

you know, having to go through customs and everything. And so they moved us to a later flight. you know, only like an hour or whatever, to Toronto. And in Toronto, they have U.S. customs there. So you don't, you know, go through customs when you get to America. You do it when you get, when you're there. So I did it in Toronto. And I said, I was just sitting there waiting.

And so, like I said, up at 3.30 a.m. And I think, you know, ended up getting home at midnight. And I only flew for like six hours of the day. You know what I mean? The rest of it was like sitting around waiting. And literally. every single fly got delayed you know whatever got home there's a great seminar though great people up there a great time um you know i love doing seminars i love going out and teaching the people and

giving them some nuggets of information and and it's cool when you go out and you do a seminar like that and it's a they got a quality coach already um you know they had some ufc fighters out there um hakeem i forget his last name i do way oh daward do yeah i daward do yeah i know yeah i know yeah Yeah, so he was there at the seminar. I got to meet him. You know, so it's cool when they have a good coach. And I basically go in and say the same things that their coaches are saying for the most part, right?

And then I'll give, you know, some, not intentionally, but, you know, by the end of the seminar, you know, coach will kind of usually jump in and be like, hey, you guys ever heard all this stuff before? And they're like, yeah, we've heard it, you know. So it's great for the coaches, you know, to hear someone else come in and say a lot of the same things. but so it's great to be around good coaches so I don't have to constantly like reiterate those

same things and I'm not coming in like saying things that they've never heard you know where they're like which sometimes you'll say things they never heard and it's a little bit I don't know profound or or special or unique but most of the time you know if you're saying something they're kind of like yeah I don't know you know you're a weirdo or something you know Yeah, you're kind of breaking, you almost have to break bad habits when you go into a situation like that. Like they don't really go into it. Exactly, yeah. And also, like, I know Calgary mentioned, like, Hakeem Dawadu is a legit fighter, but, like, that's also an area that's not super well known for having a lot of, you know,

a lot of named fighters. So I'm sure it's always a cool reception. Because, I mean, you get onto Florida, you throw a rock and you'll hit nine MMA schools down there. But, like, in Calgary, there's probably not, you know, I'm sure there's a lot of schools, but, like, you know, just not as well known for producing high-level U.S. C fighters. So it's probably, you know, probably a little bit better. reception, so to speak, because they're not used to it. You know what I mean?

Like they don't get the same kind of, like, like I said, you go down to Florida. I've been to Florida when I was down the American Top Team, and you could literally throw a rock and you're in their school, like, down the route. Yeah. Yeah, so. Yeah, and it's not like there's UFC fighters just traveling through there on the regular. Yeah. Either, you know, but they could just meet or whatever.

And I saw your video, like, the weather looked good. I noticed, like, the dicey thing about Canada. Like, I love Canada, by the way. Like, I was talking to, I was talking to Modestus Buchamp. who fought in Montreal a couple weeks ago. And I was telling them, I was like, I love Montreal. Like, I've been there several times. But every time I've been to Montreal, it's been for a UFC card, and it's been, like, nice weather.

I was like, there was one time they did a card. And I think it was, I wanted to say it was George St. Pierre and Josh Koshek, I think. And I didn't go to it. And it was like December. And it snowed like seven feet, like the first day everyone got there. And it didn't snow for the rest of the week. But it's not like the snow just goes away, you know? So, like, they're downtown Montrechrechreux.

It's like seven feet of snow and I was like every time I got to Montreal it's gorgeous It's like springtime summertime like nice weather But seven feet of snow nope no interest in that whatsoever Yeah, yeah you never know but we we were at the perfect time of year because this weather was absolutely Tremendous and It we you know you could see the mountains from the city which is always beautiful went up to the mountains It was still warm. It's not like it was like 20 degrees colder when we got up to the mountains So, see some cool stuff up there, man.

Just a great time all around. So I love doing seminars and hopefully we get some more. So anybody listening out there? Tell your coach. There you go. Love it, love it. So we are, as I said, we're going into the weekend with UFC fights coming back, but we are kind of geared up now for UFC 316, which is next weekend.

Big title fight, Sean O'Malley and Marabdaweil is really running it back. And Kayla Harrison and Giuliana Pena, fighting for the Bantamate title. but without really like a whole ton of news right now, I wanted to kind of get into some other topics that we had going on with Matt. And I'm curious, I'm going to put you on the spot here. I didn't bring, I didn't tell you we were going to talk about this, but I want to bring you up.

I'm curious. I do. That's kind of my job. Did you see this story? I wrote the story, so I hope you see it. And by the way, this is not new necessarily news, just something no one ever picked up on before was Kane Velasquez's before he went away.

Obviously, we know he got sentenced to prison, and he's going to be eligible for parole in March, by the way. So he's got, you know, potentially less than a far less than a year left to go in jail. But he did an interview and they're like, what was your relationship like with Dana White? And he's like, you know, Dana's a businessman, you know, we got along, you know, whatever. And then just kind of casually out of nowhere. He goes, oh, yeah, well, Dana did pay my bail. And Kane had a million dollar bail.

Now, when you say million dollar bail, people are like, that's a lot of money. I know this because my ex-girlfriend actually worked at a Bellbond place or my girlfriend worked at a Bellbonds place. ago and a $1 million bail comes with 10%. So you pay 10% of the money, and that's their collateral. So you get $100,000, but still $100,000. And like, I'm just kind of curious, Matt, like, because I know Dana gets a bit of a bad rap. And I know there's going to be the argument immediately someone's going to, I guarantee you

someone's going to see that and say, well, if we would have paid gain, if we would have paid gain, well, ask us more, he could have afforded his own bail. I understand. But like, you, you, you've always pretty, genuinely spoke pretty positively at Dana. I'm not saying he doesn't do some bad things. We could probably list them. But I thought that was pretty cool. I was like, you know what?

And also, I think the fact that Dana didn't publicize it. It's not like he went out in public and put on Twitter, hey, I posted Kane's bail, praise me, pat me on the back. It was Kane saying it, and it's a year later, year and a half later, when he actually revealed it. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, that's who Dan is. I think he's a real dude.

And I think he's a cool dude. When it comes to business, I mean, that's what business is. Right. Like there's always debates, arguments, lawsuits, and everything else in business. And Dana doesn't hold back on anything in business. And he is a shrewd businessman, right? Like, you're not going to fuck with him in business. He's going to come right after you. So, but as a human being, I do think that's who he is. Like, he, you know, he's friends with Kane and helped him out. So you can't hate on that, right? you know my own experience um interestingly enough talking about Canada like I did I went to jail in Canada once I don't know if I've ever even told you this story I'm pretty sure I have but I was in jail in Canada once and the UFC helped me out they didn't pay my bail but I didn't I wasn't able to like I didn't even reach out to him and tell them until after I was already out of bail so maybe they

would have but um oh what the heck what happened there? got a FaceTime call. But anyway, they did help me out with getting lawyers and a lot of different things to get me back into Canada and get me clear. The case got fully dismissed and the UFC helped me with that. So, you know, that is who they are. You know, they are human beings and they're good people in that sense. In terms of business, you know, that's up for your own debate, right? you have to do your own research and decide.

And I know you have told me that story. I don't know if you told me on the air or not, but you have told me that story before. But that was, I'm not saying this makes it better or worse, but that was like your own trip. It wasn't like you were traveling to do a UFC event. Like that was when you were on your own. So like, they helped you out independently of like,

they weren't like, oh, we need to get you out of jail so you can go fight in this car. That was just your own personal trip. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, I was on my way to my wedding. Yeah. Yeah, so I definitely know that story.

I'm not, by the way, I'm not bringing this up to, like, you know, we need to pat Dana on the back. But I just thought it was cool. Like, you know, like, that's like he didn't, you know, kind of go out of his way to do that and pay for Kane's bell. And, you know, I know we've talked about Kane before on the show and everything he's been going to over this last couple years. But when that came out, when I saw that story, because I never heard it, like, no one ever publicized it, Dana never said a word about it. And when Kane just kind of casually says, oh, yeah, he did pay my bell. I mean, that's pretty cool. Yeah, it's cool.

Yeah, you got to give credit where credit. to do, right? Like, if Dana does something that we want to criticize, like, most everyone's going to say it loud and clear. So when he does something cool, we should give him credit for it. Yeah, and I think everyone in the MMA community is kind of on Kane's side with this whole thing, you know, we're all rooting for him

to do well and get out of jail and restart everything with his family and everything he's gone through. And there's been one unifying force in MMA over the last few years is probably everybody getting behind Kane Velasquez's what he's going through. And like I said, you don't have to love Dana. You don't have to love everything he does,

but when I saw that story and I wrote about it, I was like, that's pretty cool. Like, you know, and the fact that he didn't publicize that he didn't say, hey, look what I did or, you know, because he talked about it. I didn't realize this when the bail got posted, the day after Dana got caught up with like TMZ and they just asked him like, you know, what are your thoughts on this?

He's like, I'm glad he gets going to his family, you know, whatever. Didn't say a word about it. Didn't say I didn't even brag about it, yeah. Yeah. Because you know, here's what bugs me a lot, Matt, you know this. And this is not MMA. really this is just in general when people do like charity or something and then they post constantly

about it's like is it really charity if you're looking for someone to pat you on the back about it like you know what I'm saying I'm not saying you shouldn't get like a good job or whatever but sometimes people do it and you almost know they're doing it because they want you to be like oh what a great what a great job what a great thing you did sure is like is it really still charity if you're just looking for people to congratulate you on doing it you know yeah I know like is there even a such thing is real altruism, right? That's like its own debate. But I know what you mean.

There's definitely a limit or there's a balance, right? You know, doing cool things. It's cool that Dana did it, right? And it's cool that he didn't do it specifically for PR, right? Especially a guy in his position where it's nothing for him to do it. And he would have got great PR for doing it. and he chose not to even mention it. So you got to get,

like I said, you got to give credit where credits do. Respect, for that. And good for Kane. Hopefully he, like you said, hopefully he gets out on,

what's it, what's it looking like, right? Like just a year probably or something, right? Less, it's March. March is his earliest day for parole, March the next year.

So it's about 10 months from now. And I would, or actually about nine months, I guess from now. And I would wager he's going to get out. around and I think they can still knock off time for good behavior and from my understanding he's at the he's at like a he's at a different correctional facility I think he's actually like he can he can teach and help other prisoners in there things like

that so I mean I assume I'm just guessing he'll get good time based on that so I would if he's eligible for if he's already eligible for parole in March next year he might end up getting out even earlier and I'd wager unless something dramatic happens he's probably going to at worst get out next March which it will mean he spent, you know, 11 months, 10 months in jail, which, you know, still don't totally agree with that necessarily with what I, you know, I'm not saying he's justifying what he did. I'm just saying, like, you know, extenuating circumstances. I get it.

You know, like the guy who is accused of doing the horrific thing to his son is still, like, hasn't gone to trial yet. Like, that's how long this stuff takes to play out. So, you know, I appreciate the judge in the case was like, you know, felt bad. And, you know, we gave him five years, but because all the time and everything, he only got, you know, a year, a little over a year and change. And now it's going to be less than the year. So, you know, hopefully King gets out sooner than later. And he can kind of get back with his family and do things.

And we kind of move on from this. And hopefully, if the guy who did this to his family is guilty, and want to be clear about that. If he's guilty, they bury him under the prison is what I hope happens. Yeah. I was just saying, like, what if Ken gets out? Like, the first thing he does is just because that dude's house. I'm not missing this time. motherfucker.

I mean, I don't know. I don't know how much you, like I said, I think I've mentioned this on the show before. My family, a lot of my family works in the prison system. And generally speaking, hurting children is a pretty guaranteed way to have a real shitty time in prison. So, yeah. So if that guy gets convicted, he's probably, things are probably not going to go well for him anyways. Or what if like while Kane is in prison, he meets like some dude who's a huge fan that doesn't have anything to live for? and it's like, bro, I'll kill him for you, no problem.

King's like, all right, sweet, bro. You never know, you never know. And they're both in California, so you never know, you never know. So next weekend, Matt, we get UFC 316, and we're going to break down the fights to give our picks next week, you know, talk about the actual fights themselves. But Sean O'Malley's getting the automatic rematch with Marabdo Alisville. I've heard a lot of opinions on this.

And, you know, I talked to Corey Sanhagan about it. I've talked to a couple other guys about it. And I think the general consensus is they understood why Sean got the rematch based mostly upon the fact that it really was no one else to fight right now for Marab. He'd already beaten Umar. Corey at that point wasn't coming off a win he is now, but that was like two weeks ago or whatever, three weeks ago. And there wasn't really another legit number one contender, Peter Yan was out there, but obviously Marab already beat him. And okay, so let's just get past the fact that Sean's getting the title shot. He's got the title shot.

So we really can't argue that now. That's pointless to argue whether or not it. in the title shot. He's got it. But here's the question I have for you, Matt. We always talk about, and we've had this conversation on the podcast before about, like, does the UFC root for certain guys to win? And I know you've kind of knocked down that idea because the UFC's going to move on no matter who's champion. But how monumental is this for Sean O'Malley? Because for a minute there, it looked like Sean O'Malley was going to be the next big thing. Not necessarily. We always want to compare everyone to Connor, but like the

next big star, when you put him on the marquee, it doesn't matter who he's fighting, people are probably going to tune in to watch, right? Like, that's kind of where the trajectory was going for Sean O'Malley. He beats Chita Veron, and one fight later, he gets pretty dominated by Barab de Wileshili. And now here they're back, you know, six months later fighting again. I don't know that the story has changed enough. And I know, I know Sean's going to say he was injured, he had the hip injury, all that kind of stuff.

But how big is this moment for Sean O'Malley? because like it or not, and we've talked about this with Connor a lot. Connor's still a massive superstar, but at some point winning matters. Now, I'm not saying Sean's in the same situation as Connor, certainly not. But the last thing you want to do is have one of your most marketable guys

lose two times in a row, which means you're probably not going to get a third shot. How big is this moment for Sean O'Malley to go out there and kind of write the wrongs? And I don't want to say course correct his career. It doesn't mean he can't be a star, but it certainly would knock him out a title contention for a very long while if he loses again.

Yeah, I mean, I don't think it's a, you know, do or die his type of situation or thing, but it just raises, it just raises or lowers the ceiling, right? Like, there's still a very high ceiling for him, regardless of whether he wins or loses the fight, but, you know, he goes in and wins, you know, now the sky's the limit, right?

And then there really is no ceiling, but, you know, a loss, I think it just puts a ceiling on things, you know? It's like, you know, you're not going to be, you know you'll be able to certainly market yourself and do the social media and sell things and and do all these big things but you're not going to be able to say you know i beat marab you know you're not going to be able to say that you were a champion or uh again or you know whatever it is you would say like it just lowers the ceiling right it's just it's not you know he's going to be fine either way and

And the guy is absolutely, you know, he's making a lot of money. He's got tons of fans. He's got a huge social media following. I think he's on, what, Twitch and, you know, whatever other kind of silly social media stuff is out there these days. Or streaming stuff or whatever. And, you know, YouTube or whatever. And he's making money doing that and he'll be perfectly fine. But, you know, there's people that have never fought in the UFC at all that do it well, right?

And he's most guys that keep even if he didn't fight in the UFC at all, like, he'd probably still be doing well on those. but if he goes in and beats marab i mean yeah that that's absolutely monumental and then of course it sets up a trilogy fight you know depending on you know a million different situations right we know how that always goes but yeah i think that sets up a gigantic trilogy fight but i think i'm in the same boat as you though marab's a tough motherfucker to beat man especially you know if you um you know, if you didn't grow up wrestling, basically, right? The high-level wrestler, you know, just match-up-wise, this is just a tough matchup for Sean, man.

But, you know, in all reality, too, he goes out there and beats him. The fact that it is a bad match-up for him kind of adds even more fuel to that starfire. 100%. And I think, you know, I think the difficult part for me for Sean O'Malley here is that, you know, Sean, I know this sounds terrible. Sean already used his get-out-of-jail-free card. He already used his I was injured, my hip was banged up, and I had to have surgery card. If you go in and lose this one and get dominated or taken down or beat up or whatever the case may be, you lose this fight, you can't come out and say it again.

You can't come out and say, well, I was also dealing with the shoulder just to know. You already use your, you already used your get-out-gill-free card. You already use your excuse that I had a hip injury that I couldn't grapple for a month or whatever was before the fight. Okay. And I know you said it before and I agree with you. Once you voice it, it's an excuse. Even if it's real. Even if you absolutely had to have sip surgery, you voice it, it's real.

It's an excuse. You've already gotten at it. So you can't make any excuses this time. You can't come out later and say, well, I had this or I had that. No, you already did that. So this is, when I say it's not do or die. It's absolutely not do or die. Sean O'Malley's still going to be fine.

He can lose this fight and still go on a fight. Umar. He can fight Corey Sanagan. He fought a lot of guys due to rematch with Peter Yan. But in terms of like, you know, championships to a certain extent have to matter. And if you lose dominantly again to Marab de Wailashvili, your prospects of getting back on top are pretty thin. At that point, you're rooting for everyone else to beat Marab. And that's not really a position you want to be in.

And so his star power is still there. I mean, I hate to keep using the Conner thing, but like, Connor is still a star even after he lost. But we said this a million times whenever we talk about Conner is at some point winning has to matter. Like, you can't just keep losing and people are going to care to watch you. Like, you know, at some point, you have to, you have to win. And Sean's not in a bad spot, but the last thing you wants to do is lose two in a row. And if he loses in lopsided fashion, it's going to hurt your brand. I don't care who you are.

It's going to hurt your brand. When your brand is fighting, I mean, Mike Tyson is still a huge star. But when he, before, I'm not talking about Jake Paul, I'm talking years ago. When he was losing fights, people lost interest to a certain extent. Like, they just knew he wasn't no one. the baddest man on the planet. He was no longer the Iron Mike Tyson that just one punch

and it was like the death touch. That was gone. That mystique was gone. And that's just how combat sports go. Yeah, absolutely. And they say, it just lowers the ceiling. You know, like you said, Tyson's still a huge star, right?

Connor's still a huge star. D.S. still a huge star. You know, it's not the end of the world. It just lowers the ceiling. That's literally all there is to it. You know, had Connor kept winning, like imagine how high his ceiling would have been right like i mean he could have been you know 10 times the star that he is now doesn't mean he's not a huge star yeah it's true you know i mean like

he's still a huge star but you know had connor won you know his last three or four fights you know it would have been insane right or how did he how'd he beat floyd mayweather he'd be like an insane star yeah you know probably probably would have set him up to start boxing more and then he would have beat up eventually, you know, by someone different or whatever. But, you know, that's all, in my opinion, that's all it does. It lowers the ceiling and then, you know, but you still move on and, you know, just build your brand in other ways. When I got a great deal on a great gift at winners, I started wondering, could I get fabulous gifts for everyone on my list? Like this designer fragrance for my daughter. At just $39.99, how could I resist? This luxurious will

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shine. But don't wait. Like leftovers at midnight, our Black Friday offers won't last. Shop now at IKEA.ca.ca slash Black Friday. Ikea. Bring home to life. So let me ask you this kind of shifting gears about Star Power. And we've kind of, you know, I know I use this phrase all the time on the show. I say if you want to be, you want to say sane as an MMA fan or a UFC fan, you've got to strike the word deserves your vocabulary because it will drive you absolutely insane. Star Power. does drive a lot of things in this sport. I don't know if you saw it last week, Moussaer Ebloev, the undefeated Fedowicz, said he thanked

Alexander Volcanowski for pushing to fight him, but ultimately he's not getting the title shot. And he said, I'm going to fight in Abu Dhabi, non-title fight. Thank you, Alexander, for pushing to fight me, but, you know, I'm going to keep working hard and get at it, which I think all but confirms, I've not heard anything 100%, you know, absolute, but it seems to point in the direction they're going to do Yaya Rodriguez against Volta. Konovsky too. Now, when we talked about Sean O'Malley getting the title shot, Star Power plays a factor. It absolutely does, but also be, the reality was there wasn't a true number one contender. Like, he didn't skip the line. He didn't jump over Umar to get it. Umar got his shot and he lost.

Um, and in this case, like, I think that's, and Yair, I think the problem with Yair is Jayaer's one and two in his last three fights and one of those two losses is him getting his brakes beat off him by Alexander Volkanowski like two years ago. So I'm curious, Matt, as a guy who fought in the UFC, been around the UFC, and now as the other side of the microphone on the UFC, how much, how much should we care that Star Power is going to ultimately probably drive Yaya Rodriguez into a title shot? He absolutely does not deserve, quote, unquote. I mean, he has a win over Patricio Pitbull. Yes, that's a good win, but he's also one and two in his last three, and he got finished in both of those two fights he lost, versus a guy like Mozart, is undefeated, maybe not the

most exciting fight. I saw Dean Thomas. I like Dean, by him. by the way, this is not me knocking Dean and our guy Alan Japan who's close to the show with me before. They were both talking about this on their show and they're like, you know, this is good for the UFC, like this is star power. That's what happens. You need the star power. And if you just put boring fighters in there, people aren't going to

watch. I get it. But Matt, how much should we care that guys like Moe's are for the longest time, Magaband and Kalia? Guys who are not, quote, unquote, ultra exciting or quote unquote stars are getting passed over for title shots. Well, I don't know. I mean, it kind of is what it is, right?

And I hate that term. But like that's what, you know, the UFC has built this brand and, you know, they have control over the sport like it or not. And there's a lawsuit about it, right? Which, you know, we don't have to get into that. But there is a lawsuit specifically about that. And if you love the UFC, you have to love, not love, but you have to respect it. That's the way they do things. And that's the way it's going to be done.

They are a business. They are an entity. And that's what their objective is solely to sell tickets and make money, right? Like, that's what a business does. So, you know, and obviously they have, you know, they're part of. a public company now with TKO and Endeavor and all that, right? So their sole objective is to sell tickets, sell pay-per-views, and make money. Now, when you do it, when you set it up in a fair and deserving way, that's not always

the most profitable way. So, again, you can love it or hate. There's pros and cons, right? We also get a lot of fights that, you know, we wouldn't get, you know, like boxing. You don't always get the big fights that this should happen. And there's years and years of negotiations and bullshit and all this stuff. So I think when you kind of get into that subject, that's kind of the way you have to do your research is,

do you like the business model of MMA the way the UFC wants it? Or do you want a business model like boxing where it's more like a free agency type thing? and there's pros and cons of both. You know, you kind of got to do your own research and make up your own mind. I think most fans don't give a fuck either way, right? And they probably, without know anything about the business, they're probably going to prefer the UFC's model

more often than not because they get the fights that they want and they want the entertainment and they want the stars putting on the big fights and getting pushed. to fight and and they like you know the things that Dana White says like oh the guy was scared or you know I mean they just whether it's true or not like they like hearing that kind of shit um and you know there's a lot of people that don't understand the business or or care to understand the business um a boxing and they look at it you know like like all that they they they how many how many times do you hear people talk about them fixing fights or or you know oh this

guy scared of this guy or he doesn't want to fight this you know it's so ridiculous but um and that's really all it comes down to when you kind of i think when you get into those questions it's it's just a business thing right and it's just the the ufc has dominated this market which is what you're supposed to do when you're a business right you're supposed to take over everything you can and grow as big as you can that's literally like a business's objective so you can't hate them for doing or be mad at them for the way they do it. But if you're going to complain about people not getting fights that they deserve, then that's what you're ultimately complaining about.

It's like this is the UFC's business. Are we, and I just thought of this while you're saying that, Matt, and you're right. Are we, do we live too deep into bubble sometimes when we get upset about this? Because I think like, like I bring up, we talked about this last week. John Jones, Tom Aspola. That's such a big fight, and John is such a big name, that, like, if that fight doesn't happen, I think there's going to be an outcry from the wider audience of people saying,

man, this sucks. We're not getting John Jones, Tom Aspinol. And when I say this, it's going to sound insulting to the other guys. I don't really mean that. I'm just saying the reality is, Alexander Mokonovsky, Moser, Evloev, and Yaya Rodriguez are not. That fight combination, however you mix it together, is not John and Tom, right? I think we can all agree on them. Right.

Right. So are we just living too deep in the bubble? Because do you think the average fan, the average casual fan, the person who doesn't watch every fight night doesn't, may not even listen to our podcast, although you should, they're just plunking down on a Saturday night with their buddies at a bar watching the fights or they're plunking down with their friends and paying, chipping in $10 a piece and watching the pay-bree, whatever it is? Do you think they really care that most are not getting the title shut?

And I think that's where we live in the weeds, right? We live in the weeds of like the EOC where like me personally, I'm like, it sucks for Mosa. He absolutely deserves it more than Yair. But does the average casual fan who just tunes in to watch Saturday nights, you know, once a month or once every two months, do they care about Mosa have left? I'm saying probably not.

Yeah. And I mean, you have to be, you know, unfortunately for a guy like Mosear, you have to be a real fan to even know who he is. Nonetheless, know that he's on a streak and that he could, a threatened title because, you know, the fact is most guys don't know his name, right? You go to a bar and mention Moussar, Evelev. No one's going to know who the hell you're talking about. And they put them into a pay-per-view or, hell, even a fight night title fight.

I think every our code and main event on a pay-per-view, no one's going to know or cares. So, again, you can't necessarily diss the UFC or hate them for the way they do it. it just fucks the guys like mouss are right who he's not out there trying to be uh shan o'malley and make you know pretty little uh social media videos or you know he's not trying to sit around and and use cap cut all day or any shit you know like he's just like out there fighting like a true warrior that he is and um you know and you know he's just like a balaamah or an uncle i've I mean, we've seen it time and time again, you know. How many fights did Tony Ferguson have to win for you?

And he's actually pretty unique guy, right? And actually pretty interesting and entertaining. So, you know, it's just kind of the way that things are. And, you know, I guess my ultimate point is like, if people do want to complain about it, you're going to have to try to change the whole sport. And, you know, and that's up to you. You got to do your research, right? you're going to have to look into the people against the UFC that are trying to change things.

And I think there is an argument for it. Like I'm not just a UFC talking head here. Like I think there's a good argument for it. There's also a very good argument for the way the UFC does things. And I totally understand why they do the things that they do, especially like once you actually own a business, you start realizing like, oh, that's why they do shit like that, you know? you actually learn what like profit and loss is

and a balance sheet and you're like, oh, okay, well, I'd like to get paid for the shit too, you know? So it's, yeah, so I'm not taking sides necessarily on that, but again, these are the issues, you know, if you want to complain about them, like you have to do your research and understand

what you're complaining about. Well, and I think you make a good point that, you know, like it's not necessarily, like, if you say you're responding to the complaints. Like you're not, you're not saying they're wrong and having an argument about that, but the reality is what you said is probably true, which is if you complain and you want that to change, you're going to change the whole sport because this is just how the UFC has always operated. This is nothing new. This is not like, you know, some guys like, you know,

Balaamahma'amah or Amagaman and Goliath, they've gotten their title shots because at that point, there was just no more ignoring them. They won 10 in a row or whatever. And it finally got to that, I mean, in a weird way, and by the way, I think Movisar should be getting his title shot. But in a weird way, him getting passed over actually might get him a bigger name right now because people don't know him or you're like, hold on, now this is undefeated Russian kid and no one's paying attention to? Why is he getting a title shot? Because we've seen this, that that's kind of what happened in Marab. Like, remember when Shawton Valley was pushing for the Ilya Tuporia fight? And he actually came out and said, you know what? No one seems to give a shit about that, but everyone's

tell me I need to fight Marab, so I'm going to fight Marab. Maybe this is, I know it sounds bizarre saying this, like, maybe this is what's going to get Mosar popular enough to get him a title shot. Like people, I know people getting pissed off that he's not getting a title shot, might actually get him a title shot. Sure. And look, you have to ultimately, as a fan or as an outsider, you have to decide whether what you want to watch is entertainment, which is what the UFC is, or if you want to watch an actual

sport, right, which is not necessarily. what the UFC is, right? An actual sport would have rankings from a third party. They would have, like, mandatory challengers. You know, they would have, you know, a lot of things that the UFC just doesn't have, right? Because they didn't build a company based on sport. The sport is what they're selling, but the actual competitive ranks and the way that matches are made is not a sport, right? Like they got rid of tournaments a long time ago.

Yeah. And, you know, the last thing, one of my guesses is not having tournaments. You know, the last thing they want is a, I don't know, think of like Mark Kerr and Abu Dhabi in 2000 or 99 or some shit and going in and, you know, has no idea how to do jihitsu really. But outstrengths everybody, takes everybody down and holds everybody on their back for, you know, gets the two points. for the takedown and holds everybody there for 30 minutes or however long the matches are 20 minutes or whatever and and you just so you know they end up potentially end up with a guy you know like a even on my season's ultimate fighter like a jesse taylor who you just took people down and kind of grind them out on the ground and then you know they're like bro we don't want you to be the champion

in this tournament you know so they you know so they put in a more exciting guy so You know, that's what, like I said, like it is absolutely an entertainment industry. And that is what they are selling is the entertainment. They're not selling the sport. And if you can step back and look at it like that, then you can kind of recognize, okay, the reality of the situation. And that's why Movesar, you know, isn't getting a title shot, right? And he should know that. Like he's in an entertainment industry.

You'll see guys like Colby recognized that, right? Like he was, you know, or Chal Sondon, and he recognized it, right? No one wanted Chal Sond to have a title shot until he started talking about having a barbecue with Anderson Silva, right? And it's like all of a sudden. And it's funny because when you look at Colby and Chale, their styles didn't change. They didn't suddenly become exciting fighters.

But they got people interested because of what they were saying. Like, Chale never turned into like this bar brawler who was just out there. putting on exciting fights. He was still chel, take you down, grind you on the ground, much like Colby was for the majority of his career, but they got you interested by the talking part of it.

People still wanted to watch. I think that's what helped Khabib, because Kabeem for the longest time, he would take you down and beat you up on the ground, but then, you know, send location, and, you know, that's bullshit, that's bullshit, or whatever he used to say, all his little catchphrases.

Number one bullshit. Number one bullshit, thank you. Number one bullshit. and send location and all people love that stuff now did kabib go out there and mall people and start finishing people absolutely but that's how you get people interested is that kind of little thing so you're absolutely right about that with a guy like kabib you get that russian stigma right the the daghestan wrestling and stuff and people get interested just because of that right he's so different and unique and you know they pump up dagestan is like the wrestling mecca of

the world which it is anyway so you know it's not not like they didn't rightfully hype it up but you know it made it made for a lot of mystique right like if you watch like WWI I mean the UFC's taking so much from WWE right and you know like the Undertaker didn't talk a lot

right but everybody he was my favorite right and they always always wanted to watch him come out you know so it's not always you know things could be entertaining in a thousand different ways but what's not entertaining is not talking

and putting on boring fights. Yeah, you're 100% right. Yeah, it's funny because WWE, like, because it's all predetermined, it's all scripted, they, you know, if fans are like, we really like CMPunk, well, they're going to keep putting CMPunk out there. They don't have to worry about CN Punk losing

because they can make, they can determine whether CNPunk wins or loses. Yeah. But in the UFC, it doesn't work that way because, like I said, I'm sure in the UFC's world, Connor would still be fighting, Sean Ovali would still be champion, you know, Ronda Rousey would have never lost.

She'd still be here. on like her 19 title. It's like that's scripting the way things play out, but that's not how fights work out. And I think those work great for the UFC too, because I mean, you know, like we were talking about with Sean Amadley earlier a little bit, like you can become a star one or two ways.

You can win a shit ton of fights. Like GSP, he wasn't an exciting guy and, you know, wasn't the most unique character or anything. But he kept winning so much. I mean, he had some qualities, right? He's like a pretty boy, well-spoken, war suits and stuff, Canadian, polite and all that. You know, the traditional guy. So, you know, he was unique in that regard.

But, you know, if he wasn't, if he didn't win the amount of fights that he won at such a high level and in such a dominating fashion, no one would have cared about him. He wouldn't have been the star that he was. Whereas someone like Shot O'Malley, you know, he could lose three or four fights in a row, maybe even more. or even Carter McGregor, right? He lost those fights and like he's still a star. Like still people, you know, hang on his every word and can't wait to, you know, for the next tweet or something, you know? So, you know, I think there's multiple ways to do it.

Like there's no, there's not necessarily a manual for becoming a star. Yeah, it's like John Jones. Like, John Jones is the greatest of all time. I'll say that I'll banging that drum from now until eternity. He's the greatest of all time. And we always talk about like the mistakes John made. but I'm like, would John's story be the same if he didn't do what he did?

I'm not saying he should have done what he did. I'm just saying, like, would he have this mystique about it? You bring it up and joke about all the time on the show. We talk about John Jones. Like, he did Coke like three days where he beat Daniel Cormier. Who could do that?

John Jones could do that. Now, would that story hold the same weight if he just didn't do that? You know what I mean? Like the rivalry of Daniel Cormey, that stage fight. Like, would his mystique be the same without the, are you still there, pussy?

Like, we all have these moments. We remember. And like, would the guys mystique be the same without all that? Like it or not, that's the reality. Like I said, like, you know, just like Connor with the throwing the thing at the bus. And like it or not, like these are all things that make you remember fighters outside of fighting. And while I definitely believe Mozar should be getting the title shot, you're raised some valid points. You don't say about you and you're boring.

I've said it a million times, and I'll say it a million times again, like no sport has done as well as the UFC at building personalities outside of WW. And I said they've taken a lot of pages from their book. That is what the UFC has done better than any other sport, like football, baseball, basketball, hockey, boxing, karate. I don't, like name the sport. Like nobody builds personalities like the UFC. I mean, I'm a benefactor of it myself.

or benefited from it myself. You know, if I was, you know, the thought at the level that I did in boxing, like no one would probably even know my name, right, except for,

you know, the hardcore boxing guys, you know, if I was, you know, if you would put me in like an NFL, you know, if I was in that sort of situation,

like, you know, I wasn't a champion, right? Like, I would have been, you know, one of the players on there.

Like, hardly anyone would even know who I am, you know? So, but I've got a, fairly decent brand at this point, like from the UFC, pump me up and showing my personality, showing my story, talking about who I am. I mean, I mean, I can recognize what it is.

Like, I didn't do it because of my amazing social media posts and my self-marketing guru. Like, it's, you know, you got to credit the UFC. You got to give credit where credits to do. And it's funny. I'm going to contradict myself because I was like, man, Mozart deserves it, but you mentioned the whole mandatory challengers in boxing. And when I think it was Ussick won, he beat Tyson Fury, and they're like, he's got to face the mandatory challenger. I don't even remember the guy's name.

Or he could fight, you do the rematch with Daniel Dubois. And I'm like, I don't want to see this mandatory challenger. I don't want to see Dubois. We had the controversy, the low blow and blah, blah, blah. So I'm guilty of it, too, because I'm a casual boxing fan. I'm not a hardcore boxing fan. I know the big fights. I know the big names.

I don't watch it as, you know, as much as you do. but I'm guilty of it too because when they're like oh who's just gonna and he didn't obviously didn't fight the mandatory challenge but that's what they were talking about like he's got to do the mandatory challenge I'm like what's interesting you said fuck the mandatory challenger I want to see Dan to do block

yeah yeah what's interesting is I don't watch boxing as much as I used to and I think a little bit of that has been because like UFC is more entertaining like I barely even watch UFC but everybody's talking about it around me all the time hardly anybody's talking about boxing and don't get me wrong

I know boxing is not going anywhere. It's not dead. They're going to have more stars. Like it's going to stay living and well for a very long time. Maybe it's dying a slow death because, you know, I don't think that they have the same stars like they have had in the past. And I'm not sure if they will again. You know, it just depends on, you know,

I think they're going to end up needing a star like a like a Sean O'Malley type in boxing, right? as someone that's, you know, good as social media, like, they're just going to need it at some point, you know, because the, you know, this generate, the boomers are dying off, right? And the old school boxing fans, and again, box is not going to go anywhere. Like, it's still going to, it's going to be around. It's always going to be a thing.

But it's going to get, you know, marginalized more and more all the time, I think. Yeah. I think there's social media stars Jake Paul. The problem is Jake Paul is not a very, not a, not a, not a, actually accomplished boxer. Like he's not like that's not a not knocking. Like I said before Jake Paul do your thing, but like no one's going to look at Jake Paul and say he's

Terrence Crawford or Canello. Like he's not. Sure. But he's got that side of it. They need the combination. They need Deshaunumale. He's actually a good fighter and a social media presence or and a star. And so no,

you're absolutely right. And it kind of depends on like what you like to. I mean, you know, in boxing, one of the things I really like and enjoy about boxing is, you know, is that they don't do that. There's not social media star guys.

out there very often and and you know there was like a Ryan Garcia right and um you know I thought he brought some good hype to boxing but of course now he's losing and you know kind of went wacko and stuff and he's not not such a big name um but you know we end up hearing about guys like in a way you know who I don't know if he even has the social media you know I mean if he does it's in Japanese and we don't even know what he's saying but um you know we get stars like that, you know, because they're so fucking good that you just can't deny them. But even, and I think that's a cool thing. But even that, though, you could argue, like, in a way, like, his last fight was on,

like, ESPN at, like, you know, 10 o'clock at night or whatever. He's not selling, he's not selling $500 of pay-reviews yet. Like, he's a name, absolutely. But Terrence Crawford-Kinello is going to dwarf Inouye's next 10 fights. Like, you know, I mean, that one fight's going to dwarf the next 10 in-of-way fights. And you're absolutely right, though. Like, I didn't know who In-O-Way was until a few years ago.

when you just kept winning and people are like you gotta see this in a way guy and i watched him kind of like lo machinco he kind of slipped under he just like this guy just goes out beats people's asses doesn't talk much or whatever but yeah you make some valid points like i'm still gonna say or bang the drums say mobs are should get the title shop but you're absolutely right what you're saying and like it or not that's the oc's business model they didn't get to become the only successful mma company because they made dumb decisions exactly and you know and like i said they're selling entertainment i mean that's all it comes down to and you know boxing doesn't necessarily sell entertainment you know they kind of rely on the fights to be

their entertainment and their production and and all that kind of stuff and that's why i think that's why i i keep saying like you know i think that at some point you know again it's not going to die off it's not going to be nothing but like they need that in boxing like to to fire it back up you know like they'll always have you know some good big fights like canelo and Crawford you know Pacquiao he's coming back you know he's

fighting again you know that'll be a big fight but I don't know I just think it's going to be tough that you know if they don't have more of the Ryan Garcia types that kind of get their social media up and their marketing and you know their brands and their personalities

yeah well like I said I mean let's not for you know I'm taking a sideways shot here by saying this but let's be honest like PFL does tournaments and seasons How's that working out for them? Yeah. You look at PFL, Bellator, hell, even one and rising and stuff.

Like I said, the UFC does it better than everybody. Like they pump up your personality. They magnify who you are. I don't see anybody else ever doing that. And I don't know why that is. If they're just trying different business models or if it's just difficult to do,

you know, I'm sure it's not an easy task. but it just surprises me that you don't see that more regularly. You know, I thought about it myself. Like, you know, I'd love to see Muay Thai come to America and be a lot bigger. When I was over in Thailand last time, I was talking one of my guys and he does like documentaries and stuff. I was like, bro, we should do a fucking YouTube show on Muay fighters and their trips coming to America. And people, if they get interested in the show, they'll get interested in watching them fight. They're not going to be interested in.

and just seeing, you know, a 130-pound, you know, 5-5-Asian guys coming to America, you know, putting on their Mongongs and doing their Y crew dance, you know, like, no one's just no one's going to get arrested in it. So you're going to have to show their personality. Show the guy training on fucking tires in the middle of the jungle and fucking, you know, trying to provide for his,

family they can't afford you know a car right and they're still riding horses or donkeys or whatever and you know you show that kind of shit I think it could spark some interest I don't know though what do I know what do I know? Yeah you never know but you just never know

like I said and you're right I mean like it or not that's the OCS business model and there's a reason why they're around making money and making revenue and everyone else isn't so you know you don't have to like it you don't have to like it but that's the way of the world and as I said I think I think we are dealt with a little bit. You know, we do live in the weeds, right?

Like, we live deep in the woods and we say, oh, most are, most, or most are. Well, that's me, you and like 10 other people. The rest of the world is like, I know Yaya Rodriguez's. I want to see Yaya Rodriguez in a title shot. So, yeah, that's, like it or not, that's the reality. So, you know, we'll see. We'll see how it all plays out.

Yeah, as I said, this weekend, we got Aaron Blanchold and Macy Barber. The next weekend, we got Marav and O'Malley and, of course, Kayla Harrison, and Juliata Pena. So we'll break down those fights to give our picks next week. Matt, do you're back safe and sound from Calgary? What else you got going on? People want to check out what you got going on. You know, the easiest way is my social media, right? I am the immortal Instagram. Excuse me, Instagram and Twitter. I got to quit drinking these while we're doing the

podcast because they just made me burp the whole time. At I'm the immortal Instagram and Twitter, the immortal Matt Brown on Facebook. Check it out. I'll just keep you all updated on there. Let's go. June 14th, concert, unclean slate. And we putting a little show on the local bar here. Hyping it up. We want to hear it when I hear it. We want to hear some Matt Brown on guitar. You know, I thought about it.

And I was talking with the guys there today. And I said, man, maybe we should do like a live stream of us. Like just set up our basement or something to do a live stream of a bunch of songs. And we could probably do better than we would at a local bar with a bunch of, you know, a bunch of our friends. You know, like they're not going to give us money. They're our friends. I agree. It wouldn't be a bad idea.

So, yeah, keep an eye for that June 14th. Get some video. Get some stuff going on with that. And as I said, next week, we'll be back to break down UFC 316 in Jersey. As always, make sure you check out the podcast and all your favorite podcast outlets, Apple podcast, Spotify. And, of course, over the best website in the world, MMAfighting.com. For Matt Brown, I am Damon Martin. We'll be back next week for another edition of the fighter versus the writer.

Thanks so much for tuning in, and we'll see you that. Fox Media Podcast Network. Unwrap holiday magic at Holt Renfrew with gifts that say I know you. From festive and cozy fashion to Lux Beauty and Fragrance Sets, our special selection has something for every style and price point. Visit our Holtz Holiday Shop and store or online at Holtrenfrew.com.