MMA Fighting - Fighter vs. Writer: Matt Brown Fires Back at Anyone Fooled by Sean Strickland’s Wild Promises About Fighting to the Death

Episode Date: February 11, 2025

On the latest episode of The Fighter vs. The Writer, UFC legend Matt Brown and Damon Martin react to what unfolded at UFC 312 this past weekend and Brown fires back at critics suddenly upset that Sean Strickland went out and did exactly what he always does plus Dricus du Plessis’ ceiling with a fight against Khamzat Chimaev looming plus we discuss why there seems to be less and less top American wrestlers coming to MMA these days and more…. Subscribe to MMA Fighting Check out our full video catalog Like MMA Fighting on Facebook Follow on Twitter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Wi-Fi available to AeroPlan members on equip flights sponsored by Bell conditions apply See Air Canada.com You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. Welcome back to the fighter versus the writer. I am Damon Martin. He is UFC legend Matt Brown and Matt. We are now living in a post-UFC 312 world where Dracus Duplice is still the champion, as we both correctly predicted.

And then Zhang Wei Lee absolutely dominated Tatiana Sores. I did not pick that fight correctly. And boy, did I go wrong. I don't think anybody I picked that fight correctly. especially the amount of dominance there. I mean, taking Tatiana down and controlling her on the ground that way, I did not see that coming. No, and the way she took her down, like, that was so slick and her strength must be unreal. Dude, like, watching her out, like, I thought Tatiana had to be one of the strongest fighters in that weight class by like a wide margin.

Wayleigh muscled her around like it was not, it was shocking, like how much she just muscled her around. And obviously, listen, there's technique involved. Don't want a discount, just say it's strength. But like the way she just muscled her off takedowns and then basically reversed her and took her down, that was incredible. Because Tatian is an incredibly high-level wrestler. To do that to her, that's pretty special. Yeah, because a lot of the stuff she did, like, wasn't technical. It was literally just muscle.

And it worked. Like, muscle can overcome a lot of technique. But, yeah, we did not expect that at all. And I didn't think there was any girl in the UFC that could deal with. Tatiana's wrestling. And I think that was probably the general consensus, right? And yeah, you know, I don't know if Tatiana hasn't been working her wrestling as much or if Wei Lee is just that good. And right now it looks like she's just that good. Yeah, it seems like it. We'll come back to that in the second, but I feel like we got to talk first about the main event. Dracca's duplice goes out there and puts on an even more dominant performance this time, breaks Sean Strickland's nose in the fourth round badly. Winning the fight. There were a couple close rounds in there. But, you know, Sean, his output was lower. He just didn't seem to really be in there. He didn't really, I mean, he didn't do any damage.

I mean, you know, if you say it went around, it's basically because he landed a couple more jabs or something. He never really hurt Drickis. He never really tried to finish the fight. His coaches were, you know, basically yelling at him, going in the fifth round saying, like, you got to get a finish here. It's over. And he just didn't do much of anything. Afterwards, I don't know if you saw this or not. Like, usually the UFC analysts are pretty, like, you know, they're pretty, like, even kill across.

else the board, but like Dean Thomas was just like, more or less, I'm not putting words in it. More or less is basically basically like Sean Strickland's fraudulent because he keeps saying like to the death and I'm going to go to the death and then he goes out there and basically throws jabs. And this time he didn't really do that that much. I mean, Dracus looked good, but Sean looked pretty bad in my opinion. Yeah, Dracus has a way of doing that to people, doesn't he? Yeah, I mean, we talked about how awkward he is and how it just somehow works. I actually quoted you in our post-fite column.

And I said one thing you always say, and I always give you credit for this, doesn't matter if it looks good, does it work? And it works. But Sean strictly, it was a weird performance from Sean. Like he wasn't as active. His output wasn't there. I don't know if it's because Dracus or if there was something just off about Sean. Well, okay. Well, first off, I got to say this.

Like a lot of people are kind of dogging Sean for not fighting to the death, quote unquote, or going to war, whatever. What I want to know is this, like, when did we start? listening to what fighters say, particularly what Sean Strickland says, right? Like, he's a obviously good fighter. He's an elite fighter. What he has done has got him to where he's at. Like, why would you suddenly change up and why we expect him to suddenly change that up in the fifth round or the fourth or whatever, right? Like, this is what he does. This is who he is. And that's what he's done that he talks about or we hear about

how he spars you know for what 90% of his training or whatever like this is how he trains he spars every day this is what's ingrained in him this is what he does this is who he is he's not going to war every day sparring this is what's ingrained and this is one of the issues with

sparring being your only training I think we talked about this a little bit last week some of the issues that come up with that but but no I mean I think it was Dracus like Dracus is the better fighter he's beat him twice now so there's dracus and then you know Sean's only chance was to you know go for broke right like we've never seen Sean do that in how many fights like we can't expect him to just do that like he he talks this talk but he says all kinds of insane shit

and like all of a sudden we're going to listen to this one thing that he says so you know and like all these five every fighter says tons of things when you get in there it's it's never what a fighter says. It's a little bit of Colby Covington, right? Colby Covington is always promising these first round finishes, and I'm going to decimate this guy, and then he goes in there, and if he wins, he wrestles him for four rounds.

And I'm not knocking the guy. You go out there and win a fight however you win it. But yeah, you're absolutely right. You can't buy what a guy says. Everyone says, I'm going to go out there and knock him out in the first round. And yes, there occasionally will be a time where that happens, but what has shown, like,

what in the history of Sean Strickland has shown us that he's going to go out there and try to just kill someone. He's never done that. That's never been his style, ever. Exactly. That's my whole point. And so, like, everybody wants to dog him for saying a shit.

Like, what's he supposed to say? You know what I mean? Like, when he's going to... Do you expect him to hype up the fight by saying, yeah, I'm going to go in and jab and keep him for five rounds? Everybody tune in. No, he's trying to hype the fight and get everybody interested in. And it works.

And everybody buys into that propaganda, I guess you call it, or rhetoric or whatever. and everybody buys it and wants to watch it now everybody's talking about it and everybody's so shocked that he didn't go to war and try to and be willing to die for it and it's like like when did this become his thing yeah he's never been that guy and i guess i guess the bigger question about sean now is like moving forward because like let's be honest matt like he was playing with house money already because when he beat israel no one picked him to win that fight no one on earth i don't care unless you were his coach or his friend or his fiance or whoever. No one picked him to win that fight. Everyone thought that was just going to be a speed bump for Adasanya after he beat Alex Paheda. It was just like, you know, we're warming you up for Dracus because that was the fight that

everyone wanted, but Dracus was injured. He couldn't fight the time, and he got Sean Strickland. And Sean Strickland went in there and kind of shocked the world and got it done. But since then, he had a kind of a split decision with Dracus. He had an ugly decision whenever Apollo Costa and then a decision lost against Dracus again. It's like, this is who Sean is. And I think, listen, he already peaked when he beat Israel. That was, again, shocking that he did that and good for him.

Congratulations. I just, I don't know that I ever would have, if you would have told me two years ago, whatever it was, like, Sean Strickland's going to be a UFC champion, I would have said, no. Like, that's just not likely. His style is just not built for that. He's a good fighter, but, you know, lots of good fighters. Like, I remember talking to Joe Lozahn years ago and Chris Lytle years ago and guys who never quite got to the title.

And like, you know what? Like, I didn't get a title. But man, I had a great career. You know what I mean? Never got a title. I had a great career. And yeah, like guys like that. Like Chris Lozon or Chris, Chris Lozan, Chris Lytle had a great career.

Joe Lozan had a great career. Never were UFC champions. Sean Strickland was playing with House Money. You know what I mean? He became a champion when no one expected to become a champion. Now I think he's back to who he's been. Like he's the number seven guy in the world. I know that sounds terrible.

I'm not trying to insult the guy. I just think that's who Sean Strickland is. that's who he's always been. Yeah, and there's nothing wrong with that, right? I mean, that's respectable, right? To be one of the top 10 guys on the planet in that weight class. And there's still a lot of guys that he can beat, and he's beat a lot of really good guys.

He has a very respectable career. Again, we know who he is, and we know what he's going to do when he goes in there and fights. And, you know, it's a safe style, and it's a good style to win fights on decisions. You know, again, you know, this is what the USC has done. I've talked about many times. What they have done better than any sport in history is they have magnified the personalities of those competing.

And we totally buy into this and we love it. And that's what the UFC markets. The UFC never once marketed, you know, Sean Strickland's fighting style. But they absolutely market who he is as a person. Right. And with social media these days, you know, just magnifies even more. and the UFC is just going to magnify that more and more. You know, and there's a lot of guys like this.

And that's why, you know, when we're breaking down these fights, you know, I try to be objective about the actual fighting skills as possible, and you've got to remove the personality. You got to remove who we think they are as people. We got to take out the things that they say. And, you know, and that's hard to do because there's so much of that, I don't know, PR out there about these guys and we get to know them. You know, like you don't see this kind of stuff in other sports, right?

Like we base it off of, you know, stats and objective measurable numbers. In this sport, everybody buys into the personalities and the clown show for some people, right? The Colby Covington Clown show, you know, things like this. Yeah, it's funny. And so I guess, and you're right. you're right so in a way i guess what you're saying you know if it words you're mouth in a way we've got no way if people if people are disappointed in sean strickland's performance and again i'm not saying like maybe he didn't have a great night because that's possible but um if you expected

something different if you expected him to actually go in there and fight to the death and become this like brawler or whatever that really the default falls on you right or not you but you know I mean, anyone who believed that, anyone's like, man, he said he's going to go to the death. That's on you for believing. I guess what I'm saying. Like, that's, I'm not, I'm not singling out Dean Thomas. When Dean Thomas says, you're not who you tell us you are, that's really his fault for believing it. Yeah, nobody, well, maybe not nobody, but the vast majority are not who they say they are.

And a lot of what they say is to try to almost brainwash their own selves and to believe in that, right? They want you to believe it and they want to believe it. I personally did this a lot in interviews, you know, not to that extent of like a Sean Struggling saying ridiculous things or things like that. But, you know, I would personally, I think other fighters probably do this. I would use the interviews because you get a lot of the same questions over and over again. And so what I would do is I would use that to reinforce my belief in myself, right?

And try to manifest this thing by saying it over and over again. and brainwash my own mind and to believe in these things. Because, you know, you can believe a lot of things, but the more you say it, the more it becomes true, right? It's just a fact of life, the way things operate in a human consciousness or the universe, the universal energy of the world or whatever. So, you know, like he may believe in his mind that he fights to the death. And you know what? if it was an actual fight to the death and it was a no time limit like he might be capable of doing that and i don't doubt that he would but this is a sport with rules and and a lot of what we can see is

objective objectively he has never fought that way so so why would we expect him to suddenly fight that way yeah no you're absolutely right that's a very very good point a very valid point you kind of got no one to blame but yourself if you expected sean strickland to go in there and suddenly start throwing flying kicks and oblocts and like that's just not who he is and and like who started listening to what sean strickland says like does anybody believe anything that comes out of his mouth like he says all this ridiculous stuff and then suddenly he's like and i'll fight to the another oh okay i'll believe that one yeah yeah it's true you're absolutely right yeah when you say like that you're like yeah that's actually true and and again listen i get it it's all build up for the

fight. I mean, listen, like, it's funny because Sean has kind of taken on this almost like folk hero persona with fans, and that's cool. Like, I'm happy for him. I know people are going to say, this is a terrible comparison. And I'm not saying comparatively in terms of like their personalities. But like, we've talked about George St. Pierre on this show. George St. Pierre is like, what do you know, I mean, I think he's the greatest welterweight of all time, arguably top three fighter of all time. But you look at the majority of his last like 10, 15 fights his career. He was a decision guy. He went out there and wrestled guys or just out jabbed him. But he had that, he had that cult following. He's a very popular guy. He had the entire country,

Canada behind him. And you kind of just like, well, it's George. Like, George is great and he's dominant. But he never finished anyone. And I only know that he really tried that hard to finish me. Like, he knew he could win. He knew he could beat you. But if you went out there and expected George St. Pierre to suddenly start, you know, just abandoning his wrestling and start throwing high kicks and Superman punches and he was going to go crazy. He was going to turn into Mike Perry, then that's on you. And that's kind of what you're saying by Sean Australia. We didn't, if you expected.

A little bit. The difference would be, look, ultimately winning is the ultimate negator, right? Like if you just win, like GSP did, like people are going to start loving you because you're just that good. Right. And he did it in a beautiful fashion too, right? He had the looks. He had the talk. He was respectful.

Of course, Canadians love that when you're. You're nice and polite and everything, right? But, you know, America's like it too, right? Like, he's a respectful martial artist. Like, there was a lot of things to prop up about him. But ultimately, he was a fucking winner. If you say that shit and lose, you get hated on, right? If Sean Strickland won that fight by jabbing and not fighting to the death or whatever,

like, we'd all be propping him up. Like, dude, he fucking got it done. It's like, okay, he still didn't do what he said he was going to do. Yeah. No, you're absolutely right. Like, if you expected Sean Strickland to go in there and fight like Mike Perry, you were probably, you're, you're the one who was wrong, not Sean Strickland, but. And hey, I'll tell you what, a lot of, a lot of times the guys, I'm not saying Mike Perry's like this, because he's probably crazy enough to fight to the actual death. But a lot of times those guys that fight like that, when the shit gets really hard, that that's, you know, they do quit, right?

They wanted to be to look like it's to the death until it actually gets intense. And they're like, okay, I don't actually, you know, I don't want you fighting back, you know. I'm actually more of a believer that Sean Strickland would fight to the death if it came down to it. Right. He's just not going to, he's just not a wild brawler like that. Yeah. Like that's what these people are considering like fighting to the death is, you know, going in there and just going for broke. I think Sean Strickland is a smart guy.

And probably in his mind, he's analytical. in this fight and say look I have to keep doing my strategy that has worked for me in every fucking fight for however long in my career like why should I change my strategy now and go for broke it's just not in his blood and that's not necessarily what fighting to the death is we don't fight to the death we're in a fucking five round octagon fight with reps and judges and commissions and all this shit around it's not a fight to the death period it sounds good it sounds good right when you say, I'll fight to the death. Yeah, yeah, no, you're absolutely right.

And, you know, like I said, I mean, it is what it is. I mean, this is who Sean is, and he's always been that way. Like I said, there's never been a time where he's not been that guy. Even the fights that he's actually finished, he was still that guy. He just obviously was able to put a guy away here and there. But, like, even look at the Adasanya fight, like, that was so shocking. Not because if you go back and watch the fight, it wasn't a great fight. Like, it wasn't.

The first round was interesting because he caught Izzy and hurt him. And he was like, oh, my God. the rest of the fight was just vintage Sean Strickland. Nothing really changed, but because so many people expected Israel to win the entire time were just like, I can't believe Sean is doing this well. But he wasn't doing anything different. It wasn't like he went out there. It was just like battering Israel to sign you around the cage.

And they're like that. He was doing classic Sean Strickland stuff of winning the fight. But have we, I guess, I guess the question, and I don't want to make this sound like I'm just bagging on Sean Strickland because Dracconce went out there, did a great job. But do you feel like we've kind of reached the ceiling for Sean Strickland at this point? I mean, he said in the mid-30s. You mentioned, you talked about it last week, and you're right, about, like, when you're sparring, you're not necessarily evolving. And I actually think we saw that in the fight.

He didn't really see, he didn't really show a whole lot of evolution between fights. You said it, credits of the great Matt Brown. You said last week, I've seen improvements in Dracus. I've not seen any real changes in Strawn. What do we see on Saturday? Draccos was throwing some spinning kicks. He was throwing a lot more kicks. Again, he didn't finish him, but he did, you know, he was varying up his attacks.

He was doing different things, and he really dominated from round three on. Like, it was a pretty lopsided fight from that point on. Sean looked like Sean. Sean did what Sean always does. Yeah, that's exactly right. And like I said, just like I said before, Drake is, that's why I picked Drakeus. I said, look, Dracus has seemingly improved more than, evolved and improved more than I've seen Sean evolve and improve.

And that's exactly why it worked out one of the very very, very rare times that I called it perfectly, right? But it worked out perfectly the way I called it. Dracus, you know, looked way better than he did. The first time they fought, Sean looked exactly the same. And every now and then you just get lucky and call one right. But again, you have to give Dracus a lot of credit for that, right? Like Sean, it was basically the same guy that Drake has fought the first time.

Dracus fought him a little bit different threw in some more things, had improved. And you got to give Dracus a lot of credit for that. So, you know, it's going to be interesting to see what the ceiling is for Dracus, right? Whereas, Sean, I think we kind of know what his ceiling is. Like, I don't think his age is probably going to play as big of a factor just because his style. It's not, you know, a slick, like Dominic Cruz style where, you know, you're doing a lot of athletic, it can reactive stuff. You know, it's a very simple, fundamental style, which is good.

And I promote this. and that's what's got him to the top is there's simple fundamental so you can't take away if he just never evolved past it so I think it's going to be really interesting to see what the peak is ceiling is going to be for Dracus how many times is he going to be able to defend his title

how many times is he'll be able to take beatings and keep coming back right you know because he's like he's probably going to get beat up a little bit by Hamzaa that's my synopsis of the fight right is he can he take the beating for two, maybe three rounds and keep coming and maybe, you know, hurt or maybe even finish Hamzat in those later rounds. Like that's a, again, we look at all the objective measures of

what these guys have done in the past. That's got, that's the path for Dracus, I think. I think it's wild that Dracus continuously proves people wrong. And yet once again, it feels like people are just going to go ahead and anoint Hamzont as the champion. I'm like, have we learned nothing watching Dracus this entire time? I'm not saying that Hamzat's not incredible. Homzot is incredible. But we've seen Hamzot when he fought Gilbert Burns, when he fought Kamar Uspin, when you drag him into those deep waters.

And that's three-round fights. That's only five-round fights. That's three-round fights. He's had some struggles with cardio and keep it up. If you don't put Dracus away early, you don't put him away in round one or two like you did Robert Whitaker or whatever, dude, that may go bad for a commslaught in a hurry. That may turn into, he may go out there and absolutely mall,

Dracus in the first round, get a 10-8 round, and then just be completely gassed in the second round, and then he comes out and Dracus goes out and finishes him in the round three or four. Dracus is an impossibly tough guy. We've seen that many times. Fights that were like, yeah, he's not going to be able to beat Robert Whitaker.

He beats Robert Whitaker. He's not going to beat Israel and Sonia. He beats Israel and Sonia. That's true. So, like, I think it's wild that people are just like, oh, yeah, Hamza is going to be. He's the uncrown champion. I'm like, you got to watch the fights.

And, like, I don't think this is that much of a mismatch as people are making it out to be. No, no. And to me, the question really, which I'm sure we'll talk about when this fight gets closer, or when is this fight? They haven't said yet, but I mean, sometimes later this year. Yeah, yeah, I haven't said yet. Yeah, okay, so when this fight happens and we get closer, I think the big question is going to be,

okay, if Dracus wins, like, what does that mean for his legacy? Like, how high up is he? And then, you know, what do we think about Hamzat now, right? So I think there's going to be a lot of questions answered after this fight, And I think that's one of the very intriguing things about this fight. Like you said, it's not a mismatch by any means. This is absolutely, Dracus has absolutely proven himself to be a worthy champion. So the question is, you know, if Dracus wins, how big of a legacy?

How many doubt offense is that now? Three. That would be three. Yeah, that's two already. Two so far. Yeah, so that would be three if he beats Hamzot, which is pretty impressive. And then if Hamzot beats him, you know, depending on how he beats him, if he beats him.

You know, he is everything that we thought he was, right? I guess that's where that'll be and then, you know, what's his peak going to be? But, well, I'm sure we'll have this conversation closer. Do you have any interest? I know Drake has mentioned this after the fight. Do you have any interest whatsoever in Dracus fighting Alex Paheda at 205? Yeah. Yeah, don't you?

I think this is an awesome fight. I do. I weirdly do. Now, will we see it? I don't know. And to his credit, Drake has said, I'd like to fight Alex Pereira, but Hamzot's first. I appreciate that he said that. And obviously, listen, Pereira's got a fight come up in a couple weeks against Magumann Ankelaev.

And I don't think that's a give me either. Like, I think people are just like already, you know, crowning and saying, oh, you know, Pereira's going to be the champ. There's no guarantee of that. I've said for like three years that I thought Ankelai was going to be champion. It just all these weird things keep happening. But, like, I don't think that's a giving me for Pereira by any stretch of demand. I could not agree more and that that's what's going to make this fight either interesting or not. Let's see how he does with, excuse me, let's see how he does with Anka Laiv because Ankelyev can kick box,

oh, excuse me, but he can also wrestle. Like he's a well-rounded guy. Prayer hasn't really faced a lot of that, right? Maybe a little bit, but he hasn't faced a lot of that. It'd be interesting to see Ankelyev's game plan and all that. I think it'll, that'll make the, But, again, Dregas has to get through Homsop. If both of them win, I think we'll know a lot more about how interesting that fight is after. I agree. I agree. We'll obviously talk a lot more about Hamzot, or, excuse me, about Ancolaev and Pereira in the next couple weeks.

We already kind of mentioned the top of the show. Of course, Zhang Wally goes out there and dominates Tatiana Suarez, four rounds to one. Tatiana got the takedown in the first, and that was pretty much it. I mean, it just was full one-sided beat down from then on out. credit to Tatiana for sticking around because she took a lot of damage in that fight. And listen, I'll be the first to admit. I thought Tatiana was the future.

I thought she was going to be champion. Did not work out that way. Here's a question I got asked of, Matt, with Zhang Wei Lee. Like, do we have to start putting her in that? I'm not saying she's there yet. I'm saying, do we have to start putting her in that goat conversation? Like, when you talk about Amanda

Nunes, I think that's kind of universally who we all have is number one. I think Valentina has legit claim to probably number two just because of what she's done across two divisions being a champion but like i think jang well he's got a real good case for number three yeah who else could be number three like yawanna maybe i mean i'm not sure i mean i'm not sure i mean it's a pretty easy case for i think because i'm not sure there's another number three anywhere maybe rose maybe i mean rose beat her so i mean there's that on her record but then again you know i mean rose has two wins over yawanna

as well, but then you look at Rose has like that loss to Carlos Sparsas, you know? Yeah. So it's like, it's weird because if you take out, I know you can't take off losses, but I'm saying, if you take those two losses to Rose Nami Yunus out of there, and Janeway, at least undefeated in the UFC. She's beating everybody else she's fought.

She's a monster. I mean, she's a very, very good fighter. And the second fight with Rose was really close. Like, let's just be honest. It was a really close fight. She got caught with the head kick in the first one. No, no shame on that one. But the second one, she got it really close. But since then, I mean, dominating the way she's dominated, and she's basically cleared out the division now.

Like, there's really no, I know people are going to say if you're in a Janderoba and she's a good fighter, but I don't think anyone's screaming for that fight. Like, I want to see. But she needs to fight She fights, though, right? Well, that's what I said. I feel bad because, you know, Mano Fior has earned the title shot, but I feel bad for her because I'm like, dude, I want to see Zhang Wei Lee and Valentina right now. Don't fuck around. Don't, don't, like, risk it. You know what I mean?

because maybe Amanda O goes out there and beats Valentin, and then you've just blown what could be a massive fight for a... Because I know this, I don't want to be offensive about this map, but I think you'll probably agree with me. There's not been a lot of buzz around the women's divisions lately. Like there just hasn't. Like, Kayla Harrison got it kind of going again. I think Saturday night did a good job because Zhang went out there

and kind of pulled off a fight that a lot of people didn't think she was going to win. But there just hasn't been, like, when Amanda was here, when Rhonda was here. Like, there was a lot of buzz around the women's division. It's just, and Yawanna, I think Yowna's a very magnetic personality. There hasn't really been a lot of that in the women's divisions lately. Yeah, agreed. And like you said, that fight is, I think, probably the one everybody's going to want to see, Shevchenko and Jay Lee.

Yeah. They got to do it, man. It's a great matchup. It's a great fight. I'm just not sure where Valentin is in her life career, you know, like it feels to me not knowing, not being quite as knowledgeable as you because you're the MMA nerd, you know, but not being quite as knowledgeable, it feels like she's kind of

on her way out, right? Like she's not as active as she used to be, you know, it feels like she's on her way out. Am I wrong and feeling that what way? No, I mean, she's 37. I mean, she's done as much as you can possibly do outside of winning divisions, you know, winning titles across multiple divisions and she came as close she possibly could. I mean, if I'm Valentina, I fight Zhang Wei Li. If I, if I win that fight, I probably put up, hang up the gloves and say, like, what better

do you want? I just took out the other, like, top two pound for pound women right now are Zhang Wei and Valentina and Chichinko. There's no doubt about that. Amanda, is she ever coming back? I don't know, and I certainly wouldn't wait around for three years to wait and see if it happens. Like, go out and fight Zhang.

You beat her? What else are you going to do? Like, how long do you want to stick around and just fight the next person, the next person? Like, at what point does that just become diminishing returns? Like, well, I'm Valentina. Go out and fight Zhang Wei Lee. You beat her. And I think she can beat her.

Absolutely she can. Maybe you just hang it up and say walk out on top. You know, like we say it all the time. And sometimes fighters just don't know when to walk away. I think that'd be a great damn time to walk away. Yeah, why not, right?

Whether she wins or loses. It's a, just call this the finale fight. Why not? I don't know where she is mentally or personally or physically or any of those things. So I think that's, you know, probably a bigger factors. Who knows?

You know, like she has the type of style where she can stick around for a long time. She's amazing takedowns and grappling, right? So, you know, she could continue doing that for a long time. But like, I feel like that's a fight we need because there just hasn't been a lot of excitement around the women's divisions. Like Kayla Harrison was it. And Kayla, you know, to her credit, Kayla is that person. But we still don't know when is she going to fight Juliana?

I know the buzz about a man. Amanda coming back, got some interests going, but like Holly Holm is gone. Rhonda's been gone for a while. Yonah's gone. Like all, and Rose is not like, Rose has lost a couple of fights. Like, she's not the, the top of the world anymore. It kind of feels like that's what the division needs. Like, we need Valentina and Zhang Wei to fight because that's actually a big fight.

Like, I'm not knocking Mano Fior. I think she's a great fighter. But you headline on carbon Valentina and Mano, that's a co-main event, more than likely. You know what I mean? and that's just, you know, it's going to get overshadowed by whatever's ahead of it. You do Valentina, Zhang Wei-League champ versus champ. That's a main event. That's a big main event.

That's a good main event. Yeah, there's just no names to stick out anymore, right? Like I guess they don't really pump the division quite as much. Like we both called, we thought Tatiana would be the one to stick out, and she would maybe kind of revive the division just based on being such a dominant fighter. And Zhang put a stop to that real quick. So, yeah, it's going to be interested to see what happens with these divisions. But I'm not seeing any names completely sticking out.

So I think you're right. That's the biggest fight in the division. Ontario, the weight is over. The gold standard of online casinos has arrived. Golden Nugget Online Casino is live. Bringing Vegas-style excitement and a world-class gaming experience right to your fingertips. Whether you're a seasoned player or just starting.

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President in Ontario. Eligibility restrictions apply. See golden nuggetcassino.com for details. Please play responsibly. I saw a thing yesterday, and I know this is going to be kind of weird way to talk about the subject. I saw a thing yesterday, Luke Thomas, who is an incredible guy in his own right, one of my favorite people to follow. He was talking about how there's not as many division one wrestlers coming into MMA lately. Like, I think there's only six now. Six division, Six Division I All-Americans currently on the UFC roster, Bo Nickel, Justin Gagee, Michael Chandler's view,

but anyways, he was noting how there's less and less them in the sport now. And I was like, that is interesting because a few years ago it seemed like everyone who was in wrestling was coming into MMA and now it's less and less. And again, there is some money in wrestling now,

not as much. I think people are overblowing how much money is in wrestling. There's still not that much money. You win the Olympics. You go to the Olympics, yes, there's money. But you're not just wrestling on the local circuit and making a bunch of money. But I think it's kind of like

that is kind of where I'm at with the women's divisions because a couple years ago, there were so many big women's fights that you could book that would headline shows and people get excited about it. And now it feels like we're in like a real stagnant period where it's like, yeah, don't get me wrong. When Kayla Harrison fights, man, I tune in. When Zhang Wally fights, I tune in. When Valentina Shibchenko fights, I tune in.

Those are the champs. But there's really not anyone else that I'm like, man, I can't wait to see so-and-so fight. I'm like, man, I can't, it's weird because, you know, three, four years ago, the women's divisions were huge. Now it almost kind of feels like a bit of an afterthought. And I don't mean to, I don't mean to diminish the people who are out there doing what they're doing, but it just doesn't have that same buzz, that same excitement. Yeah, and going back to the wrestlers coming in May, I wonder if the NIL things have

anything to do with that, because that's, they are making some money and that. And I just wonder how that's affecting things. I have no idea, to be honest. But that is an arrest of thought. You know, I realized that just Saturday. Maybe it was Luke that posted it. Somebody posted there was only six division one fighters in May now. And I was like, wow, that's crazy.

Because you would have thought that that was something that was just going to get bigger and bigger. More and more D1 wrestlers would be coming, right? More national champions, more all-Americans would be coming to test themselves in MA. And that really hasn't been the case. Yeah, it's weird how that has shifted. And, you know, listen, I mean, you know, I know, I know, I know, you talked to a lot of wrestlers and I talked to a lot of wrestlers. You know, wrestlers will tell you, like, their dream is to win an Olympic gold medal, things like that.

That's absolutely still true. And when that doesn't happen, that's when a lot of them did transition over. Bo Nichols is a great example of that. He tried for the Olympics. Couldn't get through David Taylor. His last cycle. He's just decided now is the time. He's 27.

Because, again, the Olympic window is four years. If you don't make it one year, you've got to wait four more years to make it to the next team. So that's a big chunk of time you're going to give up to try for another Olympic team and you may not make it. So Bo Nicol, I think, made the right choice. Because, again, even though, I mean, this last Olympic cycle, David Taylor didn't even make it. I mean, it was, you know, he ended up losing to Aaron, what was it, Aaron, Aaron, I can't remember his last name, but he ended up losing that one. So, Aaron Brooks, thank you. Aaron Brooks.

So there's no guarantee. So, I mean, that kind of seemed like the right time for, for Bo to make it. But, yeah, it is kind of weird that, like, wrestlers have just not been making that transition as often recently, you know, like, as much as it used to anyways. Yeah, I'm not sure exactly why that is. You know, some of the wrestling coaches that I know that were coached some of the youth clubs and even some of the high school and college teams, they push their wrestlers to go to MMA because one of the things that they tell them is, look, there's seven guys that go to Olympics. Like your chances are really low.

Like even if you are like Boone Nickel is crazy good. He is good enough to be a medalist at the Olympics. Seven of them make it. That's it. Yeah. It's a that's a tough road like you have to be a David Taylor level of Jordan Burroughs at that Kyle Dake level and it's still like you know every four years that is a tough tough path to go down. And there almost has to be a little bit of luck and like the stars have to align there's so many things or you just have to be you know insanely good like a Jordan Burrough. So it's not the best path. So. but I think a lot of these guys, they just get, you know, wrestling has its own culture, and it hasn't really crossed over a lot with the MMA culture.

From my perspective, from what I've seen, like, they don't really, like, they love MMA, they love watch it, but it's like an entertainment thing where, like, wrestling is, like, truly a sport to them, you know, they feel like they're getting in a fight if they're coming over to MMA, whereas like wrestling is an athletic competition which is how I look at fighting but I don't think they see it that way and I think it's it's not an easy as a cross easy of a crossover as people make it out to be because we all know how good wrestling can be for a May fighters but it doesn't mean that it's easy like mentally well you also mean that that that evolution that adaptability I mean listen I've I've said this on the show before I've said to you probably privately

publicly. You've got to told me five years ago Ed Ruth was going to come into MMA. I would have said, man, that guy's going to be a monster. Ed Ruth was a freaking, just a terror in wrestling. And he never quite got there. He, I mean, he didn't do bad, but he was like, you know, having a couple losses, never became a champion. I don't even know if he's

fighting anymore. I don't think he is. Then you get a Bo Neckle. Bo Neckle came in, again, I'm really high on wrestlers. I was like, Bo Nichols going to be the guy's last fight. He won, but it wasn't exactly this, you know, this, obviously, this performance where, man, he's guaranteed to be champion.

You know, not saying he won't get there. Again, I mean, it's still a good win to beat Paul Craig, but wasn't the way we thought Bo Nicol would just go out there and absolutely, you know, kind of Hamzot guys. And again, you also got to remember we talk about D1 all Americans. Yes, that's true. But then you look at guys like Usper and de Makhinevatov and Islamachachev and the guy, Aramus Rukhi and the guys from other countries, Marabdo Wailishvili, who outr wrestled Henry Suh, who is a gold medalist.

You know what I mean? So we talk about it. American wrestlers, yes, but there's wrestlers coming in from all over the world who are still dominating the sport. But, yeah, I mean, it's not easy. The evolution is not easy, and some guys just don't adapt. And I know I've told this story before, and I know you know him as well. A couple years ago, Kyle Snyder's like, man, I'm going to go fight.

I can't wait, I'm going to do it. And then, like, as time passed, he's just like, yeah, I don't really think I want to get punched in the face. I don't think that's really for me. And that's fine. Totally cool. You know what I mean? It's not for everybody. Like, wrestling is wrestling is wrestling for some guys, and fighting is fighting.

some guys are going to adapt and do well some guys are not but um it's it is kind of weird like everyone Jordan burrow said everyone's like I'm gonna fight I'm gonna fight and now slowly but surely it's like yeah maybe not yeah we're else to talk about the guys who are at the top of the world at wrestling too right where you know so so and I have a couple of things on that right so for one the standard saying is that wrestling is the best base base. for MMA, right? I'd actually disagree with that. I think the best base for M.A. is athleticism. Right? Like, that's why, like, sometimes you'll see a wrestler not be able to take, like, like Yor Mero, not taking down Robert Whitaker, right? The defense in MMA is much different than

the defense in wrestling. I mean, there's a lot of similarities, but there's a lot of differences, too. And just having the athleticism to deal with it makes a huge difference. And secondly, when someone is able to get to such a high level of a sport, one of the examples I use is Michael Phelps, right? His body is built for swimming. You remember the little graph what they did, where they like, his torso is long, his arms are long, his legs are short, his feet are big like flippers, you know,

his hands are already cupped and webbed or some shit. You know, I think like to get to an Olympic level gold medal or, you know, medalist of wrestler, like you have to have that same kind of thing. you're built specifically for wrestling. And you've wrestled so much that your body's adapted and evolved into being even more so. But genetically, you have to have some gifts specific to wrestling. And that's why someone like Ed Ruth didn't cross over quite as well.

Like his body was built for wrestling. But not necessarily. Who's at Phil Davis? Like he was never a really good striker. You know, like an amazing wrestler. But his body was just not built for striking. and if you and again when you come across a you know real your Amera is not different right he did get a lot better striking just because he's such an insane athlete but um you know he was

he would never be able to strike with a guy like Robert Whitaker right but his body is built for wrestling so you know I think we see these cases all the time so I don't think it's quite as simple as people make it out to be to go from very high level wrestling and a lot of of the best MMA guys we've seen were not necessarily the best wrestlers because their bodies didn't have those genetic abnormalities

that would have made him great for wrestling. And I think GSP's probably the best example of all this. He didn't even wrestle, but he's such an insane athlete that he was able to pick up enough wrestling to do it at the highest level of M&A. I mean, you got to remember a couple, like you mentioned George St. Pierre. You can say George St. Pierre is one of the best

wrestlers ever in MMA. And he never wrestled day in his life until he get. John Jones is the greatest mixed martial artists of all time. He was a Juko. He was a Juko wrestler. and he went out there and sorry D.C., I love you, but he outrestled

Daniel Corbier. Daniel Corby is clearly a better wrestler than John John. No day. He's an Olympian. He's a freaking, you know, two-todil Olympian. In a straight wrestling match, Daniel Cormey beats him all day. Yeah, but wrestling is not M.MA and you look at like a John Jones, like and I wonder, and

I wonder of this evolution, like you think about of John Jones. He had two years of college and then he's like, you know what, I'm not going to be that guy. I'm not going to be able to be an Olympian. I'm not going to be a champion. I'm going to go fight. And he has wrestling, very good wrestling, but he also developed those other muscles,

those other weapons. And he became who John Jones is today. George St. Pierre, you mentioned him a great example guy who picked up wrestling. But you can't help but wonder, like, maybe it's the guy who had like a couple years of wrestling and he's like, you know what? I want to go and focus on MMA at 1920.

as opposed to like 24, 25, and they start developing those other skills, those other weapons, and you become a John Jones, where John Jones was never a champion wrestler. He was never a champion. I mean, I think that's a great path, but ultimately it's athleticism, right, where you can pick up all the different qualities. And look like when I go with guys who aren't as good as me, but they're just simply amazing athletes,

they don't have the skills, the knowledge, the wisdom, maybe not even strong or whatever, but they just have that athleticism. Like, it makes it crazy hard and they'll pull out things that you're not expecting. And they're able to do things. They're able to pick up on things and get the technique so quickly that the athleticism is the key. And that's what one of the evolutions I think we've seen in MMA that has made it so amazing. It's just the level athleticism has went up tremendously.

And just unfortunately for the heavier guys, no one has caught up with John Jones yet. Yeah. I mean, I think, like, I know Gable Steven has told me many times he plans on fighting. he's at currently in there right now. But again, you don't, you still don't know. Like, you still don't know for sure. Like, you look at a Gable Steebson and say, that guy's a freak. He is a freak athlete.

He's about athleticism. But he's also 5'10, you know, like, he goes in there against the, you know, we saw this last week in that it was a Talison to share a guy, six, seven, or whatever, you know. I mean, he caught that one elbow. He cracked just in top with that elbow. Maybe you just, you don't, you can't out wrestle Gable Stevens, and maybe you land that one elbow and he just goes face first on the canvas. I mean, that's the unknowns of it.

So you just, again, like, I'm a wrestling guy. I know we've talked about this before. I know you go down to the Ohio State Wrestling Room and you work with those guys. When you're in a straight wrestling match, it's a tough go. But if you take, and I'm saying this is a guy who's a fan of him, like a Miles Martin, who was an incredible college wrestler. And I know he's transitioned in a MA. You throw him in there in a cage with Matt Brown.

Probably not going to go well for him as just like a straight rally because now you're you're not, now you're not just collar and tiling up to wrestle. You're throwing knees and elbows and that guy's like, oh shit. I actually get hit by an elbow. Totally different game. I mean, I've worked with guys that are, you know, all Americans and I'm trying to to think of me national champions where, you know, I don't have a shot against them wrestling. You know, like it's not even fun.

Like, you know, I'm getting beat up. And then we put on the gloves and we actually spar and they can't even take me down. Yeah. And I'm not the best MMA wrestler. I mean, I think I'm pretty good at it, but I'm not the best, and they can't figure it out because it's so different. Like, one of the biggest reasons for that is, like, what makes a great wrestler is the setups. Now, you obviously have to have a great shot, you know, all the other things. But that great shot doesn't mean anything if you can't set it up.

And the setups in M.A are completely different. Now, you know, you have the Jordan Burroughs who, you know, he can kind of shoot. at any time it seems like but look like like when when he got beat by Kyle Dake like Kyle Dake just didn't you know just didn't fall for his setups and and what was able to hand fight with him beat the setups you know um that's like the biggest difference right there like they can't set it up and you know when not if I'm in a wrestling stance and particularly and um you know actual wrestling like you get stalling like you have to to go forward. You have to wrestle with them. You're going to get stalling. In

MMA, like, you don't have to do that. Like, I can just back up the whole time. I can circle the whole time. And that's, that's completely different rhythm than what they're used to, where a guy has to engage with them. Yeah, I mean, you look at the best wrestlers in MMA today. I'm talking about the wrestling style of wrestling. You look at Islam. Islam Akachab, I think is the gold standard right now, or you look back in Khabib. Neither one of them won any wrestling titles. Yeah. I mean, there's no gold medals or anything. I mean, they train with guys.

They train with those guys. I know they train with Cedicoff and they train with, you know, Sadjaliyev and guys like that, but they're not, they didn't go that path. But I guarantee you probably don't want to fuck around the grappling match with Islamachachev in a fight because he will take you down and moll you because he's got that style. He's kind of got that GSP thing where like he just knows how to take you down. He's adapted to style. Khabib did the same thing.

in a classic wrestling match. I remember back in the day, like Jordan Burroughs, like, I want to wrestle Kabib. Well, you probably smoke Kibibu, even a wrestling match because you're Jordan Burroughs. You're a gold medalist. You're an amazing wrestler. But turn it into a fight and watch Kabeb put you in a dars or take you down an elbow in the face.

And it's a whole other world. So yeah, it is interesting. Like, I didn't even think about that when I saw that stat. I was like, man, six D1 All-Americans. That seems so low. But it's true, man. Like I said, it's not for everybody. It really is not. Yeah. It's not. That's exactly it.

You know, again, I think I'd like to see the cultures come together more. They seem very separate to me right now. You know, you're not seeing tons of MMA guys going out and supporting the wrestling, you know, going to the national championships or anything like that. You're not seeing tons of wrestlers coming to MMA fights all the time, show an interest. You know, on a podcast like this, like you're not interviewing, wrestlers all the time, you know, so I think having more crossover there would go a long way.

Yeah, hopefully, I mean, you know me, I'm a big wrestling guy. Like, I try, like, I got to cover the Olympics this year or last year, and it was so much fun. It wasn't fun because the American men had a terrible year, but it was fun, like, covering the sport. Like, I got to, I got kind of friendly with Candidi Blades, who became a silver medalist for the women. I'm a big fan of Sarah Heldra Brandt. I've talked to Hell of Maroulis before. She's grappling now. she's doing jiu-jitsu, which is cool.

Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah, she's probably one of the few MMA journalists who cross over a little bit more to wrestling, right? But it's not a common thing. No, it's not. I mean, like I said, I know Gable. I know Gable really well. Like, I've known Gable for a while. Gable's a guy.

I've known Kyle Snyder for a lot of years. But, yeah, it's not common. And like I said, I try to blend that a little bit because I love wrestling. But it is that when I saw that status, like, oh, God, that's wild. Like it didn't even seem right because years ago It was like See my wrestlers are Yeah as I say the interesting they are

There's a lot more crossover in Jiu Jitsu Right a lot of MMA guys go do Jiu Jitsu matches Right and I see the same thing in Maitai I don't see a lot of crossover And I'd like to see more You know we do see A decent amount of guys Going over Thailand and trying to learn

Muay But most of them they're going to like Tiger Bang Tower or something And there's like Thai guys there You know they're they do an MMA in Thailand So you know I don't even know how much crossover there is there. So I think it'd be a great thing for the sport to see more crossover.

I think the UFC could do a lot. It putting a lot more things on fight pass, wrestling and Muay. One FC, I think he's doing a decent job of it. We'll see if they can last another five years or whatever. Hopefully they can't because I like what they're doing with that. I like see the UFC a little bit more like, you know, I know they did it with a couple people. I know they did it with Frank Mears' daughter, but the NIL money, like putting some money into wrestling and developing.

Because again, as you said, only seven people are going to go to the Olympics. There's a whole lot of people who aren't going to go to the Olympics. And when you have that four-year cycle, timing-wise, like, if you're 21, 22 years old and you miss the Olympics, now you're 26-27. Like, that's a big chunk of time between Olympic cycles. And then again, if you miss it again, then you're in your 30s. And when you're in your 30s, that's kind of like the, unless you're that dude from Cuba that you know, you're not typically, you're not seeing a lot of 30-year-old gold medal. It happens, but it's just rare by comparison. You know what I mean?

So, yeah, it's interesting. In other countries, they're also going to the, you know, at least working towards Olympics at 17 and 18 years old, right? Because they're not doing college wrestling and, you know, they're going into freestyle matches straight away. And it's just a little different path in America. They're doing the, they're doing the Henry Sehudo Pat. Henry never wrestled in college.

He went straight to the Olympics. Like, it's kind of funny when you think about. Like, he was in Olympic gold medals, never wrestled a day in college. Yeah, smart. Yeah, I'm some. I mean, if you're that good, it's smart. Yeah, yeah. If you're hitters, if you're hitters, if you're not, yeah, maybe not so much.

But, I mean, look at Aaron Pico. Aaron Pico's a good example of that. Like, he tried for the Olympic team that one year didn't work out. He went straight to M.A. And, yeah, he's had some bumps along the road, but he's developed into a pretty damn good fighter. Like, I'm a big fan of Aaron Pico. Yeah, absolutely. And he's a pretty agent out too, right?

Yes, he is. I don't, listen, let me just say this. I like PFL. I do. I just talked to Usman de Magamato up the other damn time. talking to Paul Hughes in a couple days. I like PFL. But man, do I want to see Aaron Pico in the UFC?

I mean, dude, come on. Yeah. Yeah, he needs to be in the UFC. That's where he belongs. Yeah, he needs to be in the UFC. I hope it happens. Matt, that is our show. We didn't get a chance.

Did you, I wanted before I let you go, did you, did you cry when you didn't get to see Canelo and Jake Paul? I know you were upset about that. I know you were waiting for that one. I cried more when everybody booed Taylor Swift. I cried for Drake just getting absolutely obliterated live on television during the Super Bowl halftime show. That's what I cried for. To be fair, maybe there was a little tear shed that that was the Super Bowl halftime show also.

But whatever, Leslie here and or there. I'm a huge Taylor Swift fan. My daughter loves Taylor Swift, so I'm a huge Swifty now. I never listen to a single song from her, but I'm a Swifty. My girlfriend is a huge Swifty, so by design I kind of like. I don't, here's what I like my way. I'll say, I've said this on the show before. I'm not trying to, not to get off subject.

I like that Taylor writes and makes her own music. She plays all the instruments. She's a very talented musician. May not be what I listen. So you go from like Kill Switch and Gage on the ride there and Taylor Swift on the ride home? I do not. But like I said, credit where credit is due. Like you're not going to find me out.

I'm going to a machine head show at a month or so. Like that's my speed. Like, you know, I was just in a show called Ghost Kid here in Columbus's a metalcore band from Germany. That's my speed. But she's talented. But if your girl goes with you, you're going to be listening to Taylor Swift on the way to the Machinehead show.

Yeah, I mean, listen, she's talented. She's a talented girl. But would you find me at her concert? No, but you will find me at Machine Head and In Flames. I will be there for that. Well, you also can't afford a $3,000 ticket. That's also what I can. That's also very great.

I bought tickets. I got tickets to a system of a down in Chicago that sold your field next year. and I paid like 400 bucks for tickets. Oh, wow, they're that much. That's the most I've ever paid for a ticket. But I'm like, I haven't seen System of a Down. And like the last time I saw, I saw Sisters of a Down twice. Once was at a festival, it was one of the, not Oz Fest,

but maybe it was like Rock on the Range or one of those shows. And I saw them open for faith no more years ago. Oh, that's cool. Years ago. Yeah. That's it. I've not seen them since. So like when I saw they were getting back together and they're doing a show

the bench sevenfold i was like i'm putting down the money i'm going to that but that was like i seen them at rock on the range when they i think they headlined a night here and i'll tell you what i was very underwhelmed um they i mean i love system of a down but i seen them like way back in the day i think it was osfest actually like way way back in like early 2000s and you know they were fucking amazing but this time like they just did not seem into it they were like why are we doing this like like we're seeing in the song but we do not want to be here and you really like felt that energy i think that was probably the same time i saw them and i think you're probably i think i think i do remember that

and i think that's right around the time they like fully broke up where they're just like we need yeah yeah like they just we just need to get away from each other now like they're showing up they're showing up doing like one show here and there together like we can we can we can we can stomach each other for like four dates a year yeah yeah it was funny the one thing i kind of remember which was a weird thing to see but I remember Serge had a cell phone in his pocket like you could see it

you know the outline of his cell phone and I was like bro you can't like leave your cell phone backstage for the fucking show like you know what I mean it just showed like he just didn't care you know it was like you just wasn't thinking about it right yeah well that's what I said for one show like it's them and a Vinge 7fold

I was like I'll go to that like that's a show because I love a Venge 7 fold too I'm a big Vinge 7 full fan so I mean that's a great just to see it just to see a Vinge, right? So even if system isn't... Yeah, and I saw... Because I saw Vinge here in Columbus, they played down at Nationwide back in...

God, it was it last March or something like that I saw him down there? Put on a good show. I didn't see the Vinge. The last time I'd seen the Vinge was also at Sonic Temple, Rock on the Road, whatever the hell it's called, one of those shows. I think I was actually there was actually there.

I think I was there with you that night. It was with Vimple when they played there at Rock on the Range or whatever it was. And then they headlined here. And so I saw him this last year when they played here. like avenged and system, I can justify a five-hour drive to Chicago for that, the two bands together.

So, yeah, you'll catch me with that. I'll pay like $400 for that ticket. I will never pay $4,000 for any. I don't care if they resurrect Cliff Burton. And they're like, we're going to do one night old little Metallica. You've got to pay $5,000. I'm like, listen, I'll catch it on YouTube. Fair.

I might pay for that, though, if they resurrect it, Cliff Burton. That might be the one. That might be the one. All right. folks, that's our show. We appreciate it when tuning in, as always. Matt, where can people check you out? They want to throw you support with everything you got going on. The Immortal Matt Brown, Instagram and Twitter, the Immortal Matt Brown, Facebook. As always. And as always, make sure you to check us out on all your favorite podcast platforms, Apple Podcast, Spotify.

Of course, over on the best website in the world, MMAFighting.com. For Matt Brown, I am Damon Martin. We will see you next week for another edition of the Fighter versus a Rider. Thanks for tuning in. then. Unwrap holiday magic at Holt Renfrew with gifts that say I know you. From festive and cozy fashion to luxe beauty and fragrance sets, our special selection has something for every style and price point. Visit our Holt's holiday shop and store or online at Holtrenfrew.com.

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