MMA Fighting - Fighter vs. Writer: Matt Brown Fires Back at Claims Islam Makhachev is Ducking Ilia Topuria Plus Josiah Harrell Joins the Show

Episode Date: May 20, 2025

On the latest episode of The Fighter vs. The Writer, Matt Brown and Damon Martin address accusations that Islam Makhachev moved to welterweight specifically to avoid a potential fight against Ilia Topuria. Plus the latest on Jon Jones and if the UFC should actually consider stripping him of the heavyweight title. And top prospect Josiah Harrell joins the show after he took out UFC veteran Melvin Guillard this past weekend plus much more. Subscribe to MMA Fighting Check out our full video catalog Like MMA Fighting on Facebook Follow on Twitter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Shop now at IKEA.ca.ca.com slash Black Friday. IKEA, bring home to life. You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. Welcome back to the Fighter versus the writer. I'm Damon Martin. He is UFC legend Matt Brown and Matt. Before we get into all of our topics this week, we have a special guest,

the guy who's going to give us the lowdown and dirty on what it is to have Matt Brown as a coach. I'm looking for all the inside dirt today, Matt. We got one of your top students on the show with us today. Yeah, it's going to be interesting to hear all the bullshit about me, huh? I think it'd be good, man. We get to trial for Josiah. He's a upcoming 9-0 now as of last weekend

and was assigned to the UFC. A lot of people probably heard about him had a pretty big story when he was supposed to fight Jack Delamadalina. What UFC was at, Josiah? 290. 290, yeah, yeah, with the Expo and everything. And then he had to come to find out

he had a moya-moa, a fucking rare brain disease. And it's been awesome to watch him come back, man. It's been cool to be a part of the journey. I had to get a brain surgery. And it's been a grind, man. But he stayed positive through the whole thing and just really, like, showed a lot of perseverance and grit.

And it's been an amazing thing to be a part of it. And then watch him go out and smash Melvin Galard last weekend. Just no problems at all. I don't think. Did you even get hit once? No. Didn't even get hit. And had a highlight suplex, which was pretty cool.

but, you know, that just led to the ending. You know, that's all it was about. So I'm just honored to be a part of the journey, so I'll let you guys take it from here. Well, I'll be a part of it. Yeah, Josiah, welcome in, man. Appreciate you doing this. Obviously, congratulations on the win over Melvin Gullar,

a legend of sport in his own right. And I know I remember when you signed the UFC, we put the story out there right away. You signed to take the short-notice fight against Jack Del and Madelaine, a huge opportunity. Obviously, we know a Jack's gone on to do, now UFC Walterweight Champion. And then, of course, kind of disaster strikes.

You have this situation come up where you have to have brain surgery. You're out of the UFC. So I know it's probably a big question to answer. Like, can you kind of encapsulate these last couple of years to kind of go to the highs and lows of getting in the UFC, leaving the UFC, having that brain surgery? You had a lot going on these last couple years. Yeah, it's hard to try to wrap it all in in one or two sentences. But you either start focusing on it and go, hey, man, you did really good. doing well and try to hype yourself up, which I'm never like that.

I'm just like fucking get the shit done and get it over with. Or you're on the opposite end where you're like, man, you just been through so much. You should just be happier here and all this. And I mean, I'm trying to be right in the middle where I'm just like, it's my life. I mean, I do get to say that nobody else gets to live this life. So if I'm going to be in this moment, why am I going to complain about something that's all about me? And at this point, it's just an experience I get to tally off, whether it's making the UFC or getting back in the UFC or winning a title or whatever we're doing,

winning last week. It's just marking off an experience that I get to say I've had and on to the next. Absolutely. I know. Good. Matt. No, I just say it's been really cool watching Josiah in the sense. It's inspired a lot of people, I think, have been around them because I haven't heard a single complaint the whole time.

like not a single day has he come in the gym like oh i don't want to be here i don't really feel like it 99% of the time it's it's no i'm cool let's go and every now and then you know we're all we're all fighters who work really hard and train hard so every now and then you'll get the yeah i'm tired but let's still fucking go but that's like the most negative thing i've ever heard him say so it's been awesome uh jazari can i ask like i think the the biggest question people are going to ask now that you're back active again is like obviously had the surgery to get the thing taken care of with your brain. So you are clear, you are back competing.

I think that was the biggest question because I think a lot of people assumed you would just immediately come back to the UFC. Unfortunately, that didn't happen, but you now picked up a couple of wins. So is that, like, in terms of your health, everything is good, you're cleared. Obviously, you're cleared. And the Ohio Commission, because I'm here in Ohio, they're no joke. Like, you have to go through all the testing and everything. So you are fully good to go, clear to fight.

Everything's good. Yeah, I'm still on the spectrum somewhere on the spectrum. but other than that, it's like, brains is just taking care of the rerouted. Got her blood, got a huge scar. Some people say it looks cool. Worst part about anything to do with my head is my hairline. So, I mean, other than that, we're good to go. Was it, what was it like getting back in there and just getting active again?

Because I know that, I mean, that's scary, right, when you find out something like that. And then it's, because it's, the emotion, I can't even imagine the emotional roller coaster. Like, getting signed to the UFC. What a cool moment, right? You're going in, you're fighting a rank guy in your debut. then the bottom kind of comes out from under you. And the potential, when you hear brain, like, you're thinking, this could be it. Like, that could be a career-ending moment, right?

Like, you just don't know, I assume. And then to come out of that now, having a couple wins in a row, like, that's a pretty big emotional roller coaster to be on. Yeah, I mean, me, most of my personality is just joking around. But whenever we get to the point to where it's, like, questionable or fucking exhaust it or whatever, it turns into, like, a lot of no-fuck-use. Like, it's like a lot of time, like it was probably like a month ago. He had miles and Isaiah N trying to grapple with me towards the end of it. And we're hitting pads.

And it's like fifth round. I'm like, this is a three-round fight coach. He goes, he goes, keep going. I'm like, all right, in my head, I'm just, fuck you, fuck you, fuck you. But that just goes back into what I'm getting to, which is, oh, you don't think I can do this? Oh, you don't think I can, I can work or come back? It's like, it's not up to you guys. You guys can have all your feelings and your emotions into it, but I know I can come back.

I know I can get back in there. I know I can do. I know what I'm capable of. And there's not a fucking thing you can say that's going to change my mind. I love it. All right. So let me ask you the deep down dirty seeker. What is it like having Matt Brown as a coach?

Act like he's not here right now. Talk all the shit you want to talk right now about Matt Brown while he's not. He's not actually here. He's not listing right now. Say whatever you want. I don't know. I prefer to talk all my shit in person. So it's perfect.

If you're going to love somebody and go to war with somebody and have a relationship with anybody, luck, and you better know how to talk shit right in front of them. There's no point. But to have Matt in your corner, you know you just get used to a rough day. I mean, it doesn't matter. I mean, the work, if anyone's scared to put in work, don't have somebody like this as your coach. Because when it comes to it, I'm blessed in so many ways that he wasn't. So when he sees me, he goes, dude, you're fucking athletic.

You literally have everything I wish I had, except for height, obviously is huge. He goes, and all you need to do is just be willing to work, and he can mold me into who I need to be. And I trust him and all those aspects. I trust him as well. So when it comes to getting in and training, it's like, I'm not afraid of hard work. If that's something that scares you, then don't fucking join anything to do with martial arts or working hard. I mean, if that's the case, going to shoot some balls,

and baskets and have some fun. But having Matt, you know the experience that comes with it. You know everything that he's been through, and he hasn't had an easy life either. So it's like, none of us are going to complain about what's going on or what's happening. He's like, how you feel?

I'm like, fucking shit. He goes, good. I'm like, yeah, let's get it. And that's an average day of walking in and getting in there. It's good to know the extent that he's willing to push, and you've seen how far Matt goes. and that's someone who I want to be.

So it just all around, whether it's mentally or whether it's physically, that having a coach like that is very good. It allows me to go in and go, cool. I know I'm getting experience. I know I have someone who has not only a shit ton of experience physically and in there, but also he has the mind to go, nope, hey, dude, you're fucking up right now. And I'll be like, cool.

All right. Maybe I don't agree with them all the time, but it doesn't matter. We get to a point where it's like, we're, man, we'll have a conversation. It'll be like, listen, this is what I do. You can do it. This, this, and this. We just got to keep wrapping it out. And we'll be 300, 400 kicks in by the end of the week.

And we're just like, are we getting it out? I'm like, I'm feeling better. It's just, all right, keep going. So it's just repetition. It's hard work. And if those are things that scare you, don't join this life, I guess. One thing that was kind of cool was, Damon, you'll like this. The way that one of the many things you can tell about fighters, how they are backstage.

It's the first time I cornered Josiah. I was always out of town or whatever before. And, like, he's very cool backstage. You know, it was cool to see because a lot of times with all that pressure and, you know, fighting a UFC veteran, you know, coming back from what you've come back through and all that. You're very cool backstage, very relaxed. Like, what was your thought process? What was going through your head?

What were you kind of feeling backstage? You're very cool. Still joking around, like, right before the fight, which is just who you are anyway, but. Yeah, no, I mean, whenever I'm getting into any type of fight and I know I'm going on to hurt somebody, that's the hardest part. It's just understanding that I actually have to try to hurt them.

Because usually it's just like play sparring and doing this. You're like trying to control everything. And all I'm doing there is just letting go of the aspect of, oh, I just want, I hope this person's all right. And you can see it out of the fight. I kind of felt bad. I'm like, that wasn't much of a fight. I was more just me bullying the guy.

And at that point, I just felt bad. And then I was like, well, ain't ain't much about it. But when I'm getting or preparing for a fight, it's more like, okay, what do I need? You warmed up? Okay, let's get warmed up. How do I feel? I'm not going to ask myself those two, those questions two minutes because it doesn't really matters like I'm still going to go to war at the end of the day so it's just more about making sure that

I'm having a good time with the people I love like before that I was walking around at the Newport aquarium and just enjoying that people that came like my uncle and aunt went uh went there and I just enjoyed family moments with them because you you don't know I mean if you're going there preparing for war you know that this could be your last day so it's like why not enjoy it why make it worse than what it needs to be why not like I mean I'm not gonna fucking get drunk or anything but I'm going to try to enjoy every moment I can and not that there is an anxiety or any nervousness to it I think you just got to get used to it I mean some people run from it and some people thrive in it and I think I just learn to enjoy it learned to enjoy that that anxiety that sits

in your chest and like cool I get to I can release this right now like in a little bit and yes I would like to get it like down and over but that's just so I can be with the people that that made it out here not not so I don't care if that fight was a 24-hour fighter like fuck it let's figure it out we're gonna be here all day but when it comes to it i just learn how to sit with that anxiety and that nervousness and just enjoy it and learn to love it i mean that's a win this weekend i mean it's a big one melvin galar is a legend i've known melvin for a long time man he's a fierce ferocious competitor huge knockout power i know he was coming back from a bit of a layoff but i mean i watched the fight man you absolutely mauled him and i mean it's got to feel good i mean

every win feels good, but, I mean, beating a guy with an established name, a guy who's been around. I mean, there was a time when I think Melbourne was like probably a win away from being a UFC, you know, type of fighting for a UFC championship. So this is a legit guy to go out there and just absolutely maul him the way you did. Super impressed. I mean, you just, you beat from one side of the case of the other. Yeah, I mean, thank you. I mean, I don't think too much about it. I mean, he's a guy and he's a legend as and he has a lot of experience. but I also think that I'm on that guy. So when it comes to just levels, I think I'm there. And even whenever I get into the UFC,

I'm not going to be like, oh, this is, I'm in the UFC now. Like, my goal is not the UFC. My goal is to see how many people we can piss off in the UFC and get that title run and have some fun, give my coaches battling fucking deucees. I enjoy fighting. I enjoy everything. But, I mean, when it comes to it,

I still have the confidence. that I think that Melvin had at a point he was talking about a ship when it comes to it. I think I'm that guy too. So it's just I don't think about it too much. Do you feel like it is a matter of, you know, when, not if you get back to the UFCs? I think everyone kind of assumes that's the path you're on. I know from talking to Matt like on the show and off the air, like you are a guy. He said to me many, many times you are ready.

You were ready when you were getting the job. Jack Della Madelanify, but you are really ready now. So is that still the ultimate goal to get to the, you get back to the UFC? Yeah, I mean, there, I mean, do UFC, do one. I mean, I can't choose this. I mean, if you know anything about life, you don't get to choose anything. It's forsaken, rolling with a punch.

So if another problem comes up or anything comes up through whatever means, we'll deal with it. But UFC is obviously the goal. That's where the best fights are and fighters are, and that's what I want. I want to push myself and these local guys aren't doing it. And we're trying to find people that are willing to fight. And it's harder to find people that are willing to fight. We already had, so we were supposed to fight not this month, but last month,

that had to get pushed to this month because we couldn't find anybody. And then the fight beforehand, we're supposed to fight that month before. But that fight got pushed before. Like, I'm trying to be active. And it's just happening and it's working, but I'm not getting a push I need. I need more from this. I wanted to be competitive or I wanted to have a good fight. I want to have blood.

I want to do all these things. And not just my opponent's blood. I want to work. I want to push. I want to be able to show the fruits of my labor. And it's hard to do so when people give up. So I shouldn't be irritated, but I am. So that's, yeah.

Are you, are you, because I know you fought all over the scale in terms like your weight, because you fought catch weights. You were going to fight Jack at 170. Do you feel like you're naturally a lightweight? Are you naturally a welter weight? Because I know this one was a catch weight. And I know you were going to do the jack fight, but that was also on like a week's notice or whatever.

So like what is your naturally way? If you were ideal, what is your natural weight? I don't know. I just keep getting bigger. I started, yeah. So 70 is the smartest thing right now. And then we're just staying here. And I mean,

I'm not going to have any wishes of getting down. But you're going to have to pay me a lot to get down to 55. But that's just comfortable. with life changes, that's why. So it's not that I can't. It's just that that's going to be maybe a year of dieting before I even get on to that. And if that's what they want,

because there's nobody right now in the lightweight division. That's besides like Ilya and the old guys, fine, let's go have some fun. But, I mean, right now the most exciting weight class is 70. So it's like, I wanted to go to 55 because that was the exciting one at the time. And you had that. And then right now, 70 is. So it's like I'm just going where the sharks are.

So if you want me to go to 55, pay me. I'll get down there. It's not going to be fun. And then 70's where I'm at right now. Matt, I'll put you on the spot. I know we've talked about this many times in the show with your gym. Like you've always said, like you own a gym. You don't run a gym to just try to build you of sea fighters.

That's not where the gym survives and makes money and does things like that. But you've been around the sport. You've got a lot of guys, and I'm certainly not trying to get you to. put one guy over another, but where do you see, Jazei, in terms of his talent and his potential in this sport? I mean, I know you've spoken to me off the air many times about his potential, but now on the air,

how would you feel about his potential? Yeah, he's easily one of the most highest potential guys I've ever been around, strength-wise, athletically, cardio. I mean, he's got the whole package. Grappling is second to none, bro.

So, he's definitely got all the qualities. But what I care about like even if he goes out and he's a world champion you know that's cool like i respect that and i love that and it's cool to be part of that journey but i like being around good people man and he's a good person and you know is a helpful part of the community and helps others cares about others and that's what's more important man like being around good people because i always wondered that about like a you know like like a john jones you know like remember they kicked out rashad for john you know and i don't

don't know that all the ends and outs of the situation, but, you know, it's like, I care more about, like, good people being around than, you know, the next, you know, Connor McGregor or something, you know what I mean? Like, like, that's what's important. And that's why, like, having Joey around and all the fighters I work with, right, they're all, like, good people, you know, and I always have that conversation with them, you know, you got to be part of the, if you want me to help you, like, you got to be part of the community, man, and you got to be, like, helping out. Josie's doing, he's going to be short on this podcast tonight because he's going to go teach a kids class tonight. You know what I mean? He just fought on Saturday and he's like, man, I got, I can only do the podcast until 3.30.

He's like, go teach the kids, you know. That's the kind of people I want to be around, man. My other fighter that fought on Saturday, you know, he was in teaching this morning at 10 a.m. You know, and he was bloody and bruised, you know, had like probably 10, 15 stitches in his face. and he goes out and teaches in the morning and that's the kind of people I respect you know and I told him not to even go in I was like bro don't go in like take a couple days off and he's like no I got to show these motherfuckers

you know the to persevere through it you know you just work through it and I respect the shit of that man I love that that's better than I was you know I was the week off so well I see just I have a little ice cream you're a lot to have a little indulgence there right?

You got to indulge a little bit after a After a big fight, right? Yeah, we got to get Josiah chilling on the ice snow. Today, bro. I ran this morning and got in the sign. I did some biking. So, I mean, I'm still good. This whole thing is less than 500 calories,

and I still have double that in my calories left. So we're still putting it in that. Good justification there. I like that. Yeah, we're good. I know you mentioned, I know, If there's one difficulty being a top prospect on the regional scene, it is getting fights. I mean, let's be honest.

I've heard horror stories all the time because guys don't want to fight you because you are undefeated, you're legit, and they're like, well, I want to make my way up. I don't want to fight this guy. I know, I'm not naming names. Matt, you know this. Like, I know UFC veterans who won't fight guys like Josiahs. They're like, oh, no, that's too much risk. I need to fight a different guy so I can get back to the UFC.

So obviously taking out of Melvin Glar is a big deal. So can I imagine, like, the goal? is just staying active and hoping you can get guys that are going to get you on their resume because at the end of the day, like Sean Shelby and Mick Maynard, I know, because I've heard them talk about this and I've talked to them about this, like, it's not just winning, it's who you're beating, who you're winning against. And I know that's a big deal with you. So is that just like the goal right now, just fighting good competition.

Melvin Clark is a great example of the UFC veteran. That's the kind of experience you want. Yeah, no. We just, biggest names we can get anybody that is willing to fight and hopefully soon is I mean, go right now have the U.S. you know we're trying to have all those guys know that. No, we're

not just going and picking and trying to have hey, hey, you want to get this or whatever losers fight first? No, we want I want, I want rounds, I want experience, I want all these things. That's why it irritates me whenever I don't get them because in my head I'm going I want the best fight I can get because

these guys, these champions, they're supposed to be the next level. And the only thing I can think to reach the next level, the way is getting pushed, and it does irk me a little bit whenever I don't get pushed, but that's what I want. I want to be pushed. I love it. I love it.

Yeah, it's going to be good, man. Like I said, I think you got a very bright feature ahead of you, and I think an organization like the UFC is going to be lucky and happy. Is it true? You know, you can ever totally believe the internet, but I was talking to Matt last night. Is it true? Did they get the nickname right, the muscle hamster? Is that the right nickname?

Did I get that right? Where did that come from? High school, yeah. That morning was a running back for the buccaneers at the time, and I was built like that in high school. I was running back, so my high school coach ended up calling me the muscle hamster. I hated it. So I think that the reason why I brought it back was because the coach was also one of the guys that said I would never be a professional.

and so I think that's the reason why I brought it back but yeah no I hated it in high school and then now I just learned to love it It's funny I'm always been able to believe Matt maybe you disagree I've always been to believe you have to have your nickname given to you Like guys are out there now like making up their own nicknames

I'm not trying to knock the guy Like I'm like changing his own nickname Like that's not how it works I always remember I know you know this name Matt, Nick Thompson. Remember Nick Thompson back in the day? He was called Nick the goat Thompson because he got, I think he got knocked down sparring one time and there's a famous goat, the goat that just falls over. It's like a thing. And so he's like, I hate my nickname, but he's like, that's what they gave me in the gym. So I'm forever Nick to Goat Thompson because

they just stuck that with me. So nicknames are not supposed to be you. You're supposed to be given that. So the fact that you don't technically like your nickname, that's kind of befitting, right? Like that's kind of how it's supposed to work. yeah and someone go ahead oh yeah no I mean

I don't care if people are like hey change your nickname and the fans love it fuck it I'll I'll be decide that

that gay dude harold fuck it let's get going if the fans love who cares I mean at the end of the days is entertaining

for them so we're just we're here for them I love it I love it well Josai You got classes to teach. You got things going on, man.

I appreciate jumping on with this. And come back and see this again. I told Matt last night when he sent me the video. I was like, do we got to get Josiah on the show? And he's like, you want to do it tomorrow? I was like, hell yeah, let's do it tomorrow. So I'm glad we're finally. Because when you were, I remember when you were going to fight Jack,

I'd actually talk to your management team. And they had reached out. And I was like, because I did the story because I knew Matt. I was to do the podcast with Matt. And I was like, yeah, of course. And, obviously, everything has been going on. So I was excited to get you on as soon as he texted me last night. I was like, dude, we got to get Josiah on the podcast.

Let's do it. Yeah, no, just let me know. I don't do much except for train, eat, and sleep. So, that's all you, Matt, you got to put him more work, man. Come on now. If he's got time to sleep and do other things, you've got to put him to harder work. Right. Come on now.

Yeah, no doubt. What are you doing right now? Go run, bro. Is there? Well, Josiah, I appreciate you jumping on, man. obviously what's that good at you got mad i would say man jazes what the hardest workers ever met bro like it's very rare that you get a guy that has talent and work ethic right most people have one or the other

um he's got both so i think there's going to be a bright future for him honored to be a part of the journey and you know that that's one of the great things about martial arts is passing on the martial art to the next person and then they evolve it into their own thing and then they pass it on and make it better that's why the martial arts keep evolving that's why they keep getting getting better. That's why the levels keep coming up in the UFC all the time. And I think you're going to see a lot of new things from Josiah that, you know, people today that you're seeing in the UFC aren't doing some things that are going to be vicious and brutal and it's going to be

scary. And he's going to have a hard time getting fights once he gets to the UFC too. No, but people aren't going to be wanting to fight them. I love it. I love it. That's what we need. We need guys like that. I love it. And you know, Matt, in the UFC, you don't get to duck any competition. They're going to make you fight. People aren't going to want to fight them, but they don't get the choice. You know, that's the UFC model, right? Like, best fight the best. And, you know, I expect them to move up the ranks pretty quick.

So it's going to be a fun journey, and I can't wait to get it started, man. I texted Sean today and haven't heard a reply back yet. So we'll see what happens. I love it. I love it. Well, Josie, thanks for jumping on with us, man. Have fun teaching. Get a little rest and relaxation.

Congrats again on the wind, man. And like I said, come back and see us again. We do this podcast every week, so I'm sure we'll get you back on again soon. Yes, sir. Thanks for having me. Absolutely. I'll see you in the morning, bro. I'll see it.

There he is. One of the top prospects in the sport, Matt Brown, your student and a guy that I think a lot of people are going to learn about, you know, in these next coming weeks, months, whatever. Yeah, yeah. And I only claim, you know, partially as my student. You know, I got to give props credit where credit's due. You know, he's a, he was already pro when he can. came to me. But he's been training a gym called Grove City Jit-Jitsu here in Columbus for a long time

to get props. That's actually where I started. That was the first gym I was ever at. And it was kind of cool, actually, over the weekend cornering with the guys that I started with. And I was like, man, it just came full circle. And so that was really cool. But yeah, I can only take part of the credit there.

You know, I help more with the stand-up part and the Muay Thai and that kind of stuff. And, you know, but his grappling, like I said, it's, it's, it's a lot. second to none man like there's it's world class uh one of my good friends dante leon who's a number three pound for pound grappler in the world you know depending on the rankings you look at or whatever you know they they fluctuate all the time but you know he's the top five guy in the world and he tells me straight up he's like dude jazia is my hardest round i mean he goes he's like jaziah is easily my hardest round i you know we we had this conversation on the show before man like i don't i just because it's

time. I don't have time to watch every regional card that's ever been, you know, that's ever been done. But when you called me about him fighting Jack, of course, immediately, I'm like looking him up and, you know, seeing his fights and I was like, God, this kid's a monster. Like, he's strong as hell. Great

wrestler. You know me. I'm a grappling guy. I love wrestling, so seeing all that. But yeah, like, huge. And I knew the potential was there. Obviously, heartbreaking with what happened with that fight, but that's, you know, kind of the sport in and of itself. but now he's coming back and beating a guy like Melvin Galardin.

And I like Melbourne, by the way. Let me just be honest about this. I've known Melbourne for a lot of years. I haven't talked to him in a while. It's probably been like three years since I talked to Melbourne. But every time I ever talked to Melvin, I always got along with him. Always a very nice guy to me. But, I mean, he mauled him.

I mean, it was not a competition. That was just a one-sided, one-sided ass kicking. And so it says a lot to go out there and beat a guy like that in that fashion. And, yeah, huge. I mean, like I said, just as tons of potential. And I think I said it to him. I'll say it to you. I think it's a matter of when, not if he gets to the UFC. For sure. Yeah, there's definitely that. One of the hardest things about Corrin Josiah is

getting fired up. And just like he said, he's like, you know, I'm trying to get pushed and I have a hard time getting pushed. And it's a little bit, like last weekend, it was a little bit difficult to get fired up because I'm like, he's going to just mall this guy. And I'm trying to tell Josiah, oh, you got to be sharp. I'm like, in the back of my head, I'm like, I really don't have to do shit, dude. You're like, you don't have to. to train hard. You could just go out there and, like, you can beat this guy on, like, one of your worst days because he's just that good. So I had to kind of pump myself up a little bit, like, like, I heard, bro, like, you know, the way I was looking at was like, this is more

of a practice for the future fights, you know, like, how can we get you in the zone and sharp and focus for future fights? Whereas, you know, these local fights, or even like a Melvin Galard, You know, he's older, and, you know, I think he went to prison for a couple years or something. And I was like, bro, like, in the back of my head, I'm like, dude, this isn't going to be a competition. And it wasn't. And, you know, it's a lot of times when I'm in the corner, they showed me on the UFC one time. I was cornering a guy and the guy won. And the other cornered men are jumping up and they're all excited.

And I was just like, yeah, cool. I was like, that's what we came here to do, right? Like, what are we so, like, excited for? Like, that's what we expected, right? Like, we expected the guy to do it. And with Josiah, that's just, that's just magnified. Because I'm like, I'm like, I hope the guy can, you know, at least test him. Because, like, I know Josiah has some weaknesses.

Like, I'm one of his coaches. Like, I know he has some weaknesses. And I'm like, okay, can we, I hope this guy, like, touches on one of those weaknesses. Obviously, I don't want him to beat him or anything. But, like, touch on the weakness. so that we have something to look back on and say, okay, we need to work on this more. But he doesn't get touched.

It's funny. Your reaction in the corner reminds me a lot of Khabib in the corner. Like, if you watch Kibb when he's cornering guys, he'll give like a little fist pump or something, but like he's just like, he's Kibb. He's just like constantly stug. Like he doesn't celebrate as much as he's like, yeah, I knew that was going to happen.

Like, I knew Islam was going to win or I knew, Umar was going to. He kind of reminds me of Kibib. It's very funny you mention that. My girlfriend is Russian, actually, right? I've been dating like six months or something now. And she always says, I'm the most Russian person that she knows. She grew up in Russia.

And she's like, you're more Russian than the Russians. That's hilarious. That's hilarious. Well, yeah, Josiah's got tons of potential. And, you know, watching him win-night fight over Melbourne Gilar was a big deal. And now, like I said, when not if, it's just a matter when he gets to the UFC. I think he's got the potential there. A lot of people, you know, we don't really bring on guests together.

right you do your own interviews and then we do all kind of our own thing and um you know i think a lot of people would be like oh that matt brought him on because like he's his guy and everything and i'm like partially yes but i have other guys that we haven't brought on um which i'm sure we will at some point because they're my guy but also bring on josiah because i'm like you guys are getting a sneak peak of a future world champion here yeah like a legend very potentially like a legendary world champion like I would honestly put him up against anybody in the UFC right now, like literally anybody in the division. You know, maybe not John Jones, right?

But I love getting it on the ground floor. It's funny because I remember when I was speaking of Jack Delo, Madelena, I remember speaking to his manager, Tim Simpson, who's an incredible person. And he reached out to me a while about a long time ago. He's like, I got this guy Jack Del and Madelanah is going to be coming to the UFC soon. Would you be willing to talk to him? I'm like, of course, you know, we can definitely do something. We talked, and I did interviews with him for his first few UFC fights when he was just coming up,

like just barely scratching the surface. And we got scheduled to do our interview for pre-fight before his win over Bilal Muhammad. And he gets on the Zoom, and he's just, hey, David, like, you know, and I was like, what's up, buddy? And, like, how you been? And he's just, oh, man, it's so good to see a familiar face. You know, you've been there since the beginning. And that means a lot to me. You know what I mean?

Like, I can't do it everyone, obviously. like I'll be the first to admit. Like when I first talked to Connor McGregor, it was after he was in the UFC. I was not in on the ground floor. I got in like after he beat Marcus Brimidge. I remember when he beat Marcus Brimidge and I talked to him like maybe like a month later.

I was not in the ground floor there. I'll fully admit it. But I always do like when I have those moments like Jack, like he recognized it right away because we talked before anyone knew his name. You know what I mean? So I always appreciate that. And so like Josiah is one of those guys.

You get on the ground floor. You kind of remember that. I always remember that with Josephinevino. as we were talking to him, like, two fights we were going to UFC. And I've remained friends with Joseph for years after that, but that you forged that early relationship when they're like, no one knew who you were when we were talking, but we still talk. And so I love that.

Yeah, it's a great thing, right? And as fighters, we remember that stuff, you know. We know who's kind of jumping on the train, and we know who was there from the beginning. And it's a meaningful thing, for real. Yeah, that's why I always made a time of our relationship with the Ohio guys. Obviously, we knew each other. God, it was that ultimate

before the ultimate fighter, I think, when we first connected. And then guys like Rich Franklin, but I knew Rich from Cincinnati's is a little different with Rich and George Griselle, those guys. But, like, I love being on the ground floor. That's, like, an amazing thing to see guys make that transition when they grow up

and they become champions and things like that. It's so awesome to see. Okay, only 10 more presents to wrap. You're almost at the finish line. But first... There, the last one. Enjoy a Coca-Cola for a pause that refreshes. With Instacard, you get groceries that over-deliver,

so you can over-share your preferences. Want russet potatoes with no brown spots? You got it. Want turnips that look light but feel heavy? Easy. Want honey-crisp apples that are firm, green, and definitely not Macintosh like last year when you lost the fall bake-off to perfect Penelope Johnson.

Okay, a bit TMI, but we're here for it. So download the app today and get zero delivery fees on your first three orders. cart groceries that over deliver. Service-based exclusions and terms apply. I mentioned Jack Del and Madelana. Funny enough, Matt, getting in some topics this week. I'm sure it's funny, timing-wise. We did our show on Monday and then boom Tuesday, like every news story ever drops from

Dana White. He announced, of course, that Islam Makachev is vacating his title, moving up to 1-7. He's going to fight Jack Del and Madelan later this year. We don't know the date yet. I'm hearing probably August, September is what I'm hearing, but nothing set in stone yet. And then I'lliott-Tepore is going to fight.

Charles Oliva for the vacant lightweight title. Before I get into any other topic, Matt, can I say, and I think you probably agree with me, are we just, like, I'm becoming a big fan of this whole UFC making you vacate your belt before you go up thing. Like, because I got so tired of the champ champ bullshit. Like, it just got so overdone and just holds up divisions. I kind of love that they're just like, dude, you can go up, you'll get your title shot, but you're not doing it with the title you already own.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it only makes sense, right? especially when the weight classes are like 15 pounds apart. And you can't just keep jumping back and forth like that. I'm sure some guy will come along that's able to do that, able to jump back and forth quickly or something. But that's a tall, tall ask of a fighter. So, yeah, it's absolutely a good thing.

Yeah, I just, I love that they're not holding. You know, I get it. Like, it's cool. We talked about this before, like the whole Champchamp thing. And I'm not, I don't mean it as like an actual negative. thing. It certainly isn't his fault, but I think everyone saw what Connor did, and they want that moment. They want that cool

moment of the cage and be like, the champ champ says what he wants, and like they want that moment. And I get it. But the reality is, is you do screw things up when you go up and wait or go down and wait or whatever it is you're doing. And listen, I mean, I don't think, by the way, I don't think it negates anything.

I don't think anyone's going to look at Ilya Tepori. If he wins and he beats Charles Oliver, they're going to say, oh, you're not legit because you didn't have your featherweight title. Like, you were still featherweight. a champion, you just don't, you're not holding two belts now. Yeah, absolutely. And that makes for a great fight, too, and it puts a lot more on the line for that fight, too, right, with Dili and Charo.

So, you know, I think a lot of people were kind of expecting that was the fight to be made. But it carries a lot more weight with the title on the line, right? So it actually makes a lot of sense all around. Can I, I know your answer. I feel like I'm an O.L. Maybe I don't know your answer. Maybe you're going to surprise me here. Because you were on the train for a while as saying Ilya versus Islam is a fight to make,

whereas I was kind of on the Islam side where I said I think I think I'll eat should win one. But again, it is what it is. But I feel like I know your answer when I say this, because I know how you react when people try to spin this narrative. Islam is going to 170. He's going to fight Jack Della Madalena. But suddenly, he's ducking Ilya to Poria. That's the narrative now. He ducked Ilya to pori.

He ran from 155 so he wouldn't have to fight Iliot Tuporia. Matt Brown, go off on that one because I have a feel you have an opinion on whether or not Ilya Tuporia or whether or not Islam-Makcha ducked Iliot-tiporia. Yeah, that's a, I'm surprised people are even saying that. That's a very silly thing to say. Islam ducking someone just doesn't, that sentence just doesn't make sense altogether, right? Those words. I just don't see that at all.

I mean, as a matter of fact, Jack Del and Madalina is sort of a bigger version of Ilya in some respects, right? Great boxers with good power. And that's kind of their forte, right? Great boxers with good power. Seems kind of counterintuitive, doesn't it? To move an upper-weight class and fight a great boxer with power to duck a smaller guy that's a great boxer with power? Like, listen, do I think there are situations where guys have quote-unquote ducked opponents? Sure, I'm sure it happens.

I know guys have turned down fights and, okay, it happens. But Islam Ocachia literally has a quote on the fucking wall at the UFCPI of his willingness to just do whatever and fight whoever. Like people are going to say, oh, he beat Hinato Moikana. That was an easier fight. he still did it on 48 hours notice. I don't care what the situation is. There's a risk there. There's absolutely a risk there to just go from Arm and Saruka

to Hinato Moikano in 48 hours notice. And it's not like Hinato was coming in, flying in off the plane. He was on the same card. So it wasn't like he wasn't prepared, wasn't trained. He was ready to fight Benil Darius. Yes, you could argue that it was an easier fight than Armisturiki, but that's still a risk for a guy like Isla Baccha,

didn't blink, took the fight, tapped him out inside the first round. Like, where in our history of knowing Islam Akachov, is there anywhere that says this guy's going to duck anybody? That just does, that's not who he is. Those two words just don't go together, Islam and ducking. They just, it doesn't add up in any sense of the word. Like you said, there's certainly situations of guys, quote-unquote, ducking, but you know,

you kind of have to define what ducking is, too, right? Like, is it, are they going out of their way? specifically to not fight a guy, you know, Islam's going for a bigger opportunity. Like, I don't think that's ducking in any definition of the word that you can muster up. So, you know, there's also the business side, you know, when people talk about this ducking stuff, there's the business aspect of it. You know, that's just, you know, the redneck fans talking, you know. or the Reddit fans, too, right?

The opposite of redneck fans. But, you know, the people like to say all kinds of things and make it more dramatic than it actually is. You know, like, Islam, I don't see a single ounce of ducking in him anywhere. I think he would fight at 85 or 205 if he got the opportunity was there. What I don't understand about is it's not like he's not fighting Ilya and fighting, I don't know, Patty Pimbley. I'm not trying to insult Patty Pimblood.

I'm just saying, like, he's not fighting, like, the number 10 guy. Like, he's not like he turned down Ilya to fight someone else. He's going up a division and fighting a bigger, stronger, national. I mean, like, that's a bigger risk. Like, Jack Dela and Madalana just showed how good he is when he beat Bala and Muhammad. And that Bilal, you could argue, has a, I mean, I'm not saying the same, similar-ish, like wrestling heavy pressure style as Islam McAcha. And, you know, and so, like, the risk is greater.

Yes, the reward is also greater because you have a chance to become a two-division champion. But the idea that he avoided Ilya, it's like, if he avoided Ilya and fought the number 18 ranked lightweight, okay, then maybe we'd have that conversation. But he didn't. He's actually going up and fighting a bigger, stronger guy from a different division. Like, that doesn't compute. Similar styles, too, like just a bigger, stronger. As a matter of fact, I would say Jack is. probably even more technical than Ilya on the feet.

You know, Ilya pound for pound, I would argue, probably has more power. But I would say Jack probably has more technique. So it's not a safer fight in any way at all. It's a very odd thing to say that he's ducking a smaller boxer to fight a bigger boxer. Yeah, it's so ridiculous. But, you know, the way this all played out, I mean, I'm not complaining. I mean, Jack and Islam's an interesting fight. I think Charles and Ilya is a great fight.

Like, listen, that's your, that's your, that's your consolation prize. You didn't get Ilya in Islam, but we get Ilya and Charles. What a great fight that is. Yeah, I think it's an amazing fight. And, you know, the, you know, the first thing I think when I think of that, there is, like, Charles is hitable, right? Like, he gets hit in a lot of fights. You know, I don't know if we've seen him have any fight where he just came out on skated, right?

How many times have we seen him, you know, get hit and drive. dropped and then he kind of, you know, pulls guard and says, come on, all right, let's keep fighting down here so I can recover. That's, it's not a good look for Charles against a powerful guy as ill is. So, but man, Charles, you know, one of the things you always say is, you know, you like to pick the guy that has more ways to win. And you got to think Charles has a lot more ways to win. But I think most people are probably going to be leaning towards Ilya, though.

And you got to remember when we talk about him getting hit. I mean, he got hit by Dustin Porre. got hit by Charles, he got hit by Justin Gagee, he got hit by Michael Chandler. Those are three pound per pound hardest hitting guys in the history of the Lightway division. He survived. Now, I'm not saying the Ilya couldn't potentially hit harder, maybe, but we can't sit here and say that Charles doesn't have to be able to take a punch and come back because he took

some fucking monster shots from those three guys. And I always bring this up, and I know people probably get pissed to be bringing this up, but the one fight, the one evidence that we have of Ilya at lightweight was a big, lightweight in Jai Herbert. Who's a big, long, lightweight in the division? Charles Oliver. Like, if he brings that knee up the middle, man, a shorter Ilya Tuporia might just find his head in the third row.

Yeah, I'll tell you, if the, I mean, that was obviously a long time ago for Ilya also. He's improved a lot, but if that fight goes the way it did with Jai Herbert, it's hard to imagine Ilya coming back for a win like he did against Herbert. Yeah, and, you know, Charles, listen, Charles is a monster. And, you know, I understand why I understand why I understand why Ilya wanted Islam, the same reason why Jack is willing to take Islam and, you know, and say, sure, give me the number one pound for pound guy in the sport,

a guy that everyone believes is one of the greatest of all time. Even though there's a line of welterweights out there, he could fight Shavkat, he could fight, you know, Ian Gary, he could fight, who are, Sean Brady. But Islam's a bigger fight. I get why Ilya wants to fight. I don't fall illia for that at all. But as I said, Charles Oliver is certainly not a bad consolation prize. And if you win, then you fight Armand Sarukian.

And that's a monstrous fight for him. I mean, I don't like, the only guy I saw beating Armin was Islam. And Islam's gone now. So I don't know anyone's going to beat Armin at this point. So, you know, if you're Ilya to be a little bummed. You're not getting Islamakcha. But you still got a freaking murderer's row waiting you. Yeah.

Yeah, no doubt. I mean, so does Islam. Even if he goes up and beats Jack. I mean, yeah, these divisions, 155 and 170. I mean, those are the shark tanks, right? I mean, not that the other ones are much easier, but those are the real shark tank divisions,

just murderers row one after the other. And, you know, some people were talking about, you know, the 155 is getting a little bit older, right, with the Fourier coming to retirement, Gagie's been around forever, Oliver's been around forever. But there's some up-and-comers, too, you know, that are still knocking on the door,

even Patty Pimble, you know, like there's, like, it's still going to be a killer, division. Yeah. And I think right now I think Welchewate, you know, I've said for a while, I thought Bantuway was it. I think it's now Welchewitt. I think Welterweight's the best division in sport right now.

Like you just saw what Michael Morales did to Gilbert Burns over the weekend, 25 years old, Ian Gary's out there. You know, you got, you know, Sean Brady looking like a monster, Shabkat looking like a monster. I know Belal just lost, but Belal's not going anywhere. It's like he's gone. You know, like, dude, Welchewates a freaking snapey right now. He still even got the older guys like Usman and, you know, Buckley coming up to fight him.

now. I mean, God, I mean, you talk about a time for a tournament. One night tournament, like, yeah, let's make it a 170. I don't think he's ever going to happen, but, I mean, like, what an epic tournament that could be, yeah. Well, it's better than ever right now, man. I think, you know, watching Michael Morales do what he did to Gilbert. And listen, I know Gilbert's older, but that's kind of, you know, the young, he's the old. We talk about that all the time on the show. And I know when I had Anthony Smith and I did an interview with him before he fought, Shane Ming-Yang, he's like, dude, I get it.

Like, if I win, great. A legend goes out on top of the sport and they get to celebrate. If I lose, though, they got a new guy in Zhang Ming Yang who can be, I'm not saying a star, but a name. You know what I mean? You want to build a name. And that's why they make these matchups like that. Gilbert Burns, 38, older, yes, but, you know, still, I mean, his three losses before

Saturday were Sean Brady, Bilal Muhammad, and Jack Delah, Madelena. That's not a bad list of guys to lose to. But then you get this young gun. Michael Browns comes out there and tarry. through him inside of a round. Now Michael Morales has a name that he didn't have before Saturday. So that's the whole point, man. The young, he's the old.

And right now, man, the youth movement in Welchewitt is pretty astounding. Yeah. Yeah, I'm excited to see how it all plays out, man. I think it's going to be, man, if Islam is able to stay on top of that division, that's going to be epic. You know, we've already had the conversation. Is he greater than Khabib, right? He goes up and beats Jack.

I mean, I think I kind of solidifies it, right? I mean, he has four title defenses, which is more than Khabib did. Again, I know you can caution. You can put the cautionary note on there. He has two Windsor, Alex, and he had Hinato versus Armin. So, okay, I'm not, I wouldn't necessarily put him ahead of Khabi on lightweight rank right now. But of all time, if he can go beat Jack Delamadalana, that's one thing Kib never did. And I know he doesn't care, by the way.

That's his guy. That's his mentor. That's his brother. But in terms of like all-time status, like, I think we always, when we talk about the all-time great, you think about John Jones, you think about George St. Pierre, you think about Khabi, you think about Demetrius Johnson. There's just certain people we all have in that five or six list, right? Like, I don't care what order you put him in, but they're in that list.

If Islam can go up and beat Jack Della Madelaine and become a two-division champion after what he's already done at Lightweight, he's in that conversation. Like, he's in that list. I'm not saying he's going to be number one versus number five, but he's in that list. yeah and hypothetically say he wins four fights at welterweight you know at what point does he start being the greatest ever you know and i think it's a very doable thing for his um which is what makes it really interesting him going up in a weight class because um it's one thing to have another four five or whatever uh in your own division but and you move up and get another you know

say he defends his title another four times i mean like we talked about the the amount of killers in that division, they're not going to be four easy fights, right? There's not going to be four guys coming up from 55 or anything. There's more than enough in line there. And that makes for a fascinating vision for Islam there, right? Yeah, I mean, that's, you might, like, and you can never predict how the sport's going to go,

you know, new guys come in, things like that. But if you look at, like, if you put, like, let's say, like a four-year plan right now, like you could legitimately say if Islam could beat Jack, and take out three contenders, take out Shavkat, take out Ian Gary, and take out Sean Brady

or take out whatever. He's probably the only guy active today that might have an argument to surpass John Jones is the greatest of all time. Like nobody, I'm not saying somebody else

won't ever do it. I'm saying right now, guys who are active in the sport today. That was kind of well getting out yet. Yeah, Islam, if Islam can do that, though, he's got a legit claim to say I've done more than John. I mean, that's because when you look at the level of competition,

that's pretty hard to deny. There's a long road to get there. I'm just saying he's got the possibility. Yeah, and John did all of his work, really, at 205. His heavyweight run, I mean, I don't even know. I think we're going to get to that here in a minute, you know, and talk about that. But it's like, I don't know, it doesn't add much to his legacy at all if you ask me.

It's a cool footnote. Like he became heavyweight. You know what I mean? But no, his accomplishments for a light heavyweight. You know, he's a light heavyweight. He's a lot of history as a cool thing, right? When we look back and, you know, we forget, you know, who the names were and all that, you know, when we look 50 years from now, I'm like, dude, he did this and this. You know, we're not looking at the nuances.

But we know what it really is, you know. And now if he goes out and fights Tom Aspinall, that's a different story. I think, right? But I guess we'll cross that bridge if we get there. It's kind of like George St. Pierre. Like, George St. Pierre is one of the greatest fighters of all time, but he's not one of the greatest middleweights of all time. Like, he beat Michael Bispin.

Good win. Bispin's a Hall of Famer. It's a great win. But he didn't go up and beat Bisping and then beat Whitaker and Audasania. So same kind of thing here. Which is what we differentiate if Islam were to win and defend a couple of times, right? Because he's already, debatably the greatest light weight of all time.

He moves up. He would start getting the argument for a greatest welterweight of all time. He's like, dude, if you're going to argue this guy is in the argument for two divisions, greatest of all time, he's probably the greatest of all time. Yeah. And same with John Jones. We might as well talk about John Jones. Like John Jones beating Cyril Gaon, beating Steepa.

Again, adds to his resume as the greatest of all time. It doesn't make him the greatest heavyweight of all time. But right now we're kind of in this holding pattern where Dana White has consistently said, I guarantee you it's going to happen. I said, I think last week on the show when they announced, or maybe it was, no, it wasn't on the show because all those announcements came on afterwards. But I said, on Twitter, I said, I've long guessed it was going to be Aspinall Jones at MSG in November. That's a big huge car for the UFC.

John's from New York. He fought there last year. All makes sense for him to go back there. Now, I know John put out some tweets today, people saying stripped and stripping them at the time. and John's like, do you think I'm the guy who cares about that kind of stuff? And he's like, I've told the UFC my plans. I'm surprised they haven't told you. I don't know what that means.

It's kind of a cryptic statement. You know, I personally, like, I don't think John Jones is done. I think when he says the UFC knows my plans, the plan is to come back in November when he wants to come back, not in July when everyone else wants him to come back. But what do you make in this situation? Because it is weird because John did fight November. So he's right now about six months out of action, whereas Aspinall fought in July. So he's had a much longer layoff.

And I understand the frustration from Tom Aspinall's side. Tom's like, I want to fight. I want to fight John Jones. Let's get this booked. But like it or not, and you don't have to like it, I understand it. But we are living on John Jones's time. In the UFC, they're not going to wait forever. But if John tells them definitively, hey, I will fight November, they're going to wait until November.

You know they're going to wait until November. Yeah, they're not going to strip them either. And that's what, yeah, I wish that there was just a rule set in stone. Like if you don't defend in this amount of time, you're stripped. That's the way it should be. Unfortunately, you know, it's just up to the PR guys and Dana and, you know, I'm sure they sit down and have meetings and talk about it. You know, there's just no, there's just no standard, right? There's just no guidelines.

And so, you know, it's kind of we're all living in the UFC's world and, you know, kind of just goes the way that they wanted to go. So you can make an argument either way, whether he should be stripped or not. But it's like ultimately just the UFC just decides, right? It doesn't, like the argument's almost irrelevant. Well, here's the thing I don't understand. And I'm just reminding people of this. He fought in November. Like, if we're going to strip a guy, he hasn't even been a year out of action yet.

Like, I always said a year. That should be the timeline. I know there is no timeline, as you said, they just kind of arbitrarily decide when the guy's going to get stripped or not. But it hasn't even been a year. It sucks for Tom Aspinall. I'm not saying I don't feel for Tom Aspinall. I do. I legitimately feel bad for the guy sitting on the sideline since last July with no real indication of when he's going to fight again.

But it's not like John's been out for two years holding under the belt. He fought in November. It's been six months. To strip him right now and there's a chance he is going to come back in November seems really dumb to me. Like you're not going to strip a guy when you have a chance to do a title of unification bout. six months from now, and that would literally be a year, which is the timeline I'm talking about. And when John says they know my plans, if he said he's retired and I'm done, he'd be out of the drug testing pool and the UFC would have stripped him immediately and they would have

booked Tom Aspinall. I cannot believe in my heart of hearts. John Jones told the UFC I'm done. If John Jones is saying they know my plans, that means they're waiting to book John Jones in a fight. They're not waiting because if he said he's retired, they had already moved. gone. They're not. Yeah, that sounds

I agree 100%. Yeah, it sounds exactly right. You know, I think it just comes down to the money part, right? Yeah. You know, because John Jones is in a position where he's setting the terms

a lot more, obviously, than like earlier on, right? And that's just the game that they're in now. And he's saying, look, these are my plans? This is what I'm going to do? Are you in or not? And I get Aspenol's frustration. I really truly do. Like I feel for the guy.

But when you're in this situation where you're playing the John Jones sweepstakes, you're not the A side. Yeah. And I look at that just like the Chandler situation with Connor. I mean, just go fight, bro. Like, you know, keep your name out there. Keep showing that you are the man to fight them. Keep building your legacy and keep showing the world.

you keep your name out in the news, keep showing the world that you're the guy that should be fighting them. And if it's true, then, you know, your case is going to get stronger and stronger. If you're sitting on the sidelines, it doesn't really help your case as much, I think. I agree. I mean, at this point, if they're talking about November, you're probably not going to fight again right now, unless you're already going to fight book. But, yeah, like, just stay active. And like it or not, you know, John is one of the rare guys who's in a position to call us.

shots. You don't have to love it. I'm not saying you should be like celebrating. The fact that John Jones... If you found out, you don't love it. Yeah, but that's the world we're living in. And John Jones, like it or not, has earned the right. He's earned the right to kind of pick and choose his shots at this point in his crew. Just like George St. Pierre being away for three years or whatever it was and coming back and jumping the line over Robert Whitaker and getting a title shot. I remember the uproar at that point. Everyone's, oh, he doesn't deserve it. Robert Whitaker's the number one guy. But it's George St. Pierre. Of course you're

going to allow him to jump the line and get into a title fight because you have a chance to sell a whole lot of pay-per-views. If John Jones says, I'm 100% going to fight again, I just want to wait until November. I want to fight an MSG. I want to have that as maybe my retirement bout. Do you think the UFC's going to be like, you know what, John, we're going to pass,

we're going to book Tom Aspinall v. Cyril gone. That's the one everyone wants to see. Like, come on now. Like, what world are you living in where that makes any sense? Right. It doesn't make a lot of sense. for the UFC so yeah in that respect but you know and that's what i think it's one of the issues that we deal with with you know UFC being the sole i guess power of mama right like it should be more

standardized right it should be again like you should have your title stripped if you don't fight for a certain amount of time and you know tom should get a title fight like he's earned that right and you know I would like to see that but whatever I guess that's kind of a different argument but you know that that's what makes it hard to comment on these kinds of things and how to have a real good opinion because it's like we're just living in the UFC's world and getting whatever they give us and they tend to give us the biggest and best fights but then you end up with situations like this where you know Tom Aspenol sitting on the sidelines and and can't get a big fight.

And John Jones keeps the title for a year while sitting on the sidelines. And, you know, it just makes for not always the best situation. But I guess it's like pros and cons, right? You kind of just got to take with the good with the bad because a lot of fights wouldn't get made if it were a different way. And also, I know you mentioned this before. So if you're advising Tom Aspinall, like Tom Aspinall should just stay busy. And you and I know, like with the whole great example with the whole Chandler-Connor thing, like when Chandler was sitting out, you know, Dana said this many times that Chandler wanted to fight,

he could have called and said, hey, I just booked me in a fight. He didn't. He was willing to sit and wait for Connor and, you know, eventually didn't happen. He moved on. I have a hard time believing that Tom Aspinall was really adamant about fighting that he couldn't call the UFC and they wouldn't say, all right, you know, we'll book you with somebody. Clearly there's a message being conveyed that we want you to fight John Jones and he's willing to wait for John Jones. the public stuff. I get it. You're going to go on

YouTube. You're going to go on Twitter. You're going to go on Instagram and say, I want to fight. This guy's not fighting me. What's going on? Stripping with the bell. But behind the scenes, I have a hard time believing if Tom Aspernel called the U.S. He said, dude, I've been out since July. I beat Curtis Blades in a minute flat. I need to fight. Get me a fight with Cyril Gahn. Get me a fight

with Volkov. Get me a fight with Jalton I'm made of somebody. I have a hard time believing the U.S. who wouldn't be like, all right. You know, because they're not, I just have a hard time believing they're just going to totally pass on it, just on the prospect of John Jones. They know more than they're telling us. And I think Tom probably knows more than they're telling us too. There's a public thing going on, the private thing. I think he knows

that John Jones fight's going to happen, and they're telling him it's going to be November or December or whatever the date is. Otherwise, he could demand to fight. Like, he could. Chandler could have demanded to fight. And come on now. You're waiting because you know the goal is John Jones, and that's what they're promising you're going to get. Sure, sure. And I get it from both sides. Like, this is the business part, right, where he's got to play. the negotiations and he's got to play his hand the best that he can and try to get the biggest fight that he can, et cetera, et cetera. And, you know, I just come from a different school. Maybe it's an old school thing. Maybe it's just me personally. And I'm like, I like, I feel like when I was

fighting or what I would suggest for others to do, you know, go in and fight as much as you can, fight the best guys you can and see how things work out. That's not always the best way to go about business and necessarily the best way to make all the money. But look, you only live once, man, and you're going to come back at, you know, 50, 60 years old, retired, but man, that whole year that I was out, you know, or two years that I was out, I wish I would have fought. And, you know, I think about stuff like that. So that's why I would advise something like that. But, you know, I totally get the business side too. You know, you got to get the biggest fight, you know, as you can and not not take all the risk to get there necessarily.

Yeah, and the other thing is, like, also when you look at heavyweight, like, there's not a clear-cut guy that Tom should be fighting right now. Is he going to fight Cyril Gaon? Is that really like a complication there too? Yeah, that's true. Like, there's not that, you know, if Francis was still around and you can say, you know what, we're going to do Francis and Tom and John, you can sit and wait. There is no Francis. And I'm not trying to knock Cyril Gan or Volkov or Al-Meda. Those are all names.

But none of them are going to, none of them even come close to the, to the, to the, to the, Star Power Magnetian to fight John Jones. So do you want to fight Cyril Gahn in June and then hope you're ready to fight John Jones in November? Do you want to just wait until November and fight John Jones? Yeah, like I said, I get both sides of the argument there. I just know what I would do. But Tom is in a good situation, though. He can't be complaining about anything right now.

You know, it sucks. He's not getting the John Jones fight right now. But these are good problems to have. You're on top of the world. and there's a and there's only big fights your next fight's going to be a big fight no matter what.

And let's also be honest about this, as I said, if John Jones told the UFC with 100% absolute certainty, I'm not coming back, I'm retired, I'm done, they would have stripped him

of the title. They're not going to strip John Jones in the title until John Jones is absolutely done or not coming back. So for all the people saying, strip him, they're not going to strip him.

You should know better. And again, it's only been saying, six months. Like, it's only been six months since he fought Steepa. I don't care how you want to define Steepa at that boy, but they just want to see the Aspertoll Jones fight. I did, too.

I just hope they fucking get it done, man. I just want to see this fight. You've been around the sport long enough, though, and I know you know Dana, you know, they're not going to strip John Jones. Like, you're calling for that does nothing. They're not going to strip him unless he's done. They're not, unless they, or negotiations go so far out of haywire, and they're like, we're not paying you $50 million or whatever the demand is.

But as long as there's a chance, a sliver of chance. that John Jones is going to come back and fight, they are 100% not going to strip him at that title. Because what does that do? That pisses him off and he doesn't come back. They're not going to do that. They're not going to play that game with him. Right.

The only way they would do it would be a negotiating tactic for some reason, right? Like, just like, we're going to strip him if you don't come back. You know, there's something like that. Who knows? Yeah, but the idea, and also the idea that they need to strip him, like, they don't. I mean, I feel for Aspinall. does, it sucks, but we're all marching to the beat of John Jones drum right now, and the sooner you accept it, the better off you're going to be.

As long as he fights Aspinall, if he keeps fighting. Yeah. However long he waits, right, I mean, we can talk about that game all day, but if he comes back and fights again, it just has to be Tom Aspinall. Like, I don't think we're really going to respect any other fight than Tom Aspinall at this point, right? Like, that's kind of the situation that we're in. is you are stuck with Tom Aspinall

if you're going to keep fighting. So if this whole thing, like some people were saying he was ducking him or whatever, well, if he was ducking him, we're going to find out now because there's no other fight out there. Yeah, the only other fight you would have had

is Ingonaut and that ain't happening. We know that ain't happening, so you got no other choice now. Like there's no, and as I said earlier, I think that's the problem of Aspinol's in. Like, who's he going to fight? Like, you're going to fight gone?

This was, I get Aspinall's position, you know, business-wise. He knows there's no one else out there to fight. but he could fight if he wanted you know i'd like just to get to fight it again if i'm tom aspinall's trainer manager whatever bro you go out there and fucking fight man just you know you know let's believe that you're going to win you know like like have faith in yourself you're going to bet on yourself you know go bet on yourself and you win it it makes it forces that that title or you know stripping john or or fighting john right it forces that

hand a little bit stronger. Yeah, but like I said, there's not, you know, unlike Welterweight where there's legitimately four guys you can make an argument for it to say they are the number one contender, there's not that heavy weight. There's John Jones, there's Tom Aspinall and a bunch of guys who probably aren't there. Yeah, yeah. So. It's a little difficult situation, but it makes for a good storyline when the fight happens, right?

Like, you know, this has been, it's going to have a lot of hype behind it and it's going to have a great media tour. Yeah. And as I said, if John, like people are posting some video he did today or sometime he talked to some guy and the guy's like, you've been around for 10 years, you're still going. And John said something like, oh, no, I'm done, I'm done. If John was done, we would know it. If John told the UFC with absolutely 100% certainty, I'm not coming back, we would know it. You know Dana's not going to hold out hope. If he said, I'm done, take me out of the pool, retired, Dana would have moved on.

They had plenty of cards to book right now. Even if Aspinall gone is not the best fight in the world, they'd book it just to get a fight book. The fact that they're not should tell you, John Jones is at least giving them the indication he's going to fight again. Yep, so let's make it happen. Let's go, Dana. Yeah, let's get it done.

Man, it seems like every time we do the show, some news breaks the very next day. Real quick, I want to ask you one thing before we get out here, just so I've got to get your opinion on this, Matt, real quick. Over the weekend, I'm sure you saw. Patch you mix, officially coming to the evening. UFC signed to fight Mario Batista, UFC 316. Can I ask real quick, just last thing?

What is your league? How are we going to remember PFL buying Belator? Because it sure seems like a lot of the guys that were supposed to be the stars of Belator are now gone. Usman and Amalgamato Madoff is the exception, of course. They still got him. But like Dakota DeCeva was actually in PFL. She wasn't a Belator fighter. She's legitimately, you could argue, their biggest star along with like Paul Hughes and Usman.

how are we going to reflect on this Bellator cell like five years from now? Like it's the weirdest thing, right? Because when it broke, huge deal. You just bought Bellator. But man, is it just like crashed and burned ever since? Yeah, I'm not sure what their business plan is. What their strategy is, what they're trying to do. I mean, the cards, like, you know, we don't even know when they're coming on half the time, right?

They don't get any hype. Like, no one's really talking about it. There's a lot of money going into that organization or is, been in the organization in it and I'm not sure how they're getting a return on it like you know there's no hype there's I don't know a single person it's a pfl fan so to speak right they're just like dude I love watching pfl man you know oh yeah I don't know what what they're doing or you know it's just a slow death maybe there's just bleeding out a little by little it's sad too because everyone when we when we when we say things about pfl or any other organization

I'm not because we need PFL, we need BKFC, we need a strike force, we needed pride, like we need people to have options. You don't want the UFC to be the only show in town because not everyone can fight for the UFC. So we need, like as much as I bagged on GFL, as terrible as that idea was, and as badly as I knew it was going to flame out and crash and burn, and it did. I wasn't rooting for that to happen. I just had a feeling. I just know the business well enough to know it was. going to happen. I'm not really...

It's basically getting to the point and I think it's probably very close to there where it's basically local promotions, regional promotions, and the UFC. Yeah, there's just not really... One kind of is the only one with a chance. You know, and they're kind of almost doing a different thing too. Like their MMA is not even like their biggest thing, I don't think. Like, everybody likes one more time. I mean, that's their bread and butter, I think, you know, not knowing, you know, totally the ends and outs.

But their MMA is solid. And I think that they have intentions to bring it up and kind of bring it back to some prominency or whatever, I guess, bring it back to a little bit better. But right now, I mean, there's really nobody. I mean, there's not even a close second anymore. I mean, it's basically like, you know, just. just the UFC and everybody else, you know. It's a better way to say it. I mean, it's no different than the NFL.

Like, I know there's other football leagues out there, but when you think of football, you think of the NFL. You know what I mean? Like, you think of, you know, they do that, that the rock has the UFO or whatever it's called. Like, I don't know anyone that's like, man, I can't wait to watch the NFL this weekend. Right.

The only competition the NFL has is college football, which is just a feeder system into the pros. And I like college. We live in Columbus. Ohio State's huge here. but in MMA it's UFC and everybody else and like BKFC is kind of like the college football people care about BKFC

they put on fun cards that's different it's not the same thing but yeah it's but it's really becoming that lately like it really is just the UFC and everybody else yeah because even with the PFL like I don't think any of us in the know that's been around for a while hardcore fans we never thought that the PFL or Bellatory

if I was going to compete with the UFC We're like, hey, there's another big promotion out there getting big stars and doing big things. And there's always sort of that little hint of potential, right? Like maybe they'll get the one guy or a couple guys that finally maybe they can break through. But I think the chasm is so wide now. Like there's just no shots for anybody. You know, like the next best promotion at this point is like LFA, right? And they're literally a feeder for the UFC.

That's what they do. And they're like the college football of NFL football, right? I guess that's, and that's, like, I know some regional promoters. And like, that's their whole goal is like to be a feeder for the UFC. That's what their ultimate business strategy is. Get on fight past, be a feeder for the UFC. That's that they're not trying to compete with the UFC. And, you know, as these investors,

lose this money and the promotions go under, eventually it's going to be figured out. And I think that's just kind of the path we're going on, is the UFC and everybody else. Yeah, it's a reality. And like I said, when I say this kind of stuff, like I'm not rooting for the PFL to fail. Actually, I want them to succeed.

I actually like a lot of people at PFL. I mean, I think Dakota Dichiva is a legit star. Paul Hughes, legit star, Usman de Raghamatov, legit star. I hope they all do really, really well. But the unfortunate side effect is there's just evidence against it. There's a lot of evidence to say otherwise. And you can't make people watch.

You know, you can't. I mean, if that was that easy, there'd be a million different promotions out there. It doesn't work that way. And the UFC's a giant juggernaut. And then everyone else is just kind of like hanging on. Like, they're just kind of holding on hoping to survive. Yeah, yeah. And like you said, it sucks, right?

Like, nobody's rooting for that. Like, I think there should be competitors or at least promotions that get your name out there and you can build your name somewhere else and get it big and then go to the UFC like Apico did or or Kayla Harrison right there's examples of that but you know it's going to be within the next few years I mean it's going to be the UFC builds the star the UFC has the stars the UFC develops the stars I mean it's I mean they're already they're already doing it with the contender series I mean I know the ultimate fire saw there but the contender series is becoming their LFA like their own LFA now

They just bring out guys. They have those cool highlights. They have, and that's like, look, I think it's like, I saw a ridiculous number over the weekend of the amount of like contender series alums in the UFC. It's a ridiculous number now. Like, that's becoming their, now, you know, the guys or girls and there still have to come from LFA or the organizations.

But the contender series is kind of becoming their feeder league, so to speak. You go out there, you put on showing the contender series. You could be Bo Nicol. You could be Sean O'Malley. You could be Jamal Hill. So they're already kind of setting up that model right now. Yeah, I said, like, they, they, they, you understand all this stuff and they're taking advantage of it and they're getting ahead of

the game on it and doing a great job of it you know you can't hate on them for doing it right if you're dana white this is exactly what you do right these guys are doing all the right things from top to bottom i don't think it's necessarily what's best for the sport personally um but you know that's a whole debate argument on the tone yeah 100% all right we're going to get out of here as always want to say a big thank you everyone to tunes in matt what do you got going on anything people want to check you out, whatever else you got going on in this couple weeks. Anything going on in the Immortal Martial Arts Center? Nothing major.

You know, we always got some guys out there fighting and competing in judicious tennis, which is always fun. For me, my big thing is somebody playing this first gig pretty soon, right? Just a little cover band thing, nothing crazy. But it's just a local bar, just having some fun. But it's funny, you know, when you start actually playing. and out in public like that, which again,

this would be my first time. It's like, damn, I need to actually practice. And I need to do this shit good. Even though, even though it's just for, you know,

maybe two, 300 people where you're like, fuck, like, I better do this fucking good, man. Yeah. Yeah, you got to do it up.

It's kind of June 14th, right? That's the date? Yeah, June 14th, every dog. So any local people can come out. But,

yeah, it'd be fun, man. It'd be fun. I know the gym, you know, Like I said, we got the second gym opened up and rolling. So it's building little by little. So having some fun with that.

And, you know, business is always a grind, man. But I love it. I love it. I love it. Well, and also want to say a big thing, of course, the Josiah Herald, one of the top prospects in the sport for joining us early in the show. Make sure you keep an eye out for him. He's going to be doing some big things in the sport. If you get a chance, go watch his fight with Melvin Glorter over the weekend.

Absolutely huge performance for him. So we appreciate him stopping by. And we'll be back this weekend, no fights. No UFC fights this weekend off. And then we roll into next week, which is Aaron Blanchfield and Macy Barber. And then rolling into UFC 2-316 with Maravon, Sean Amalley, Kayla, and Juliana Pena. Patchy Mix making his debut. So lots coming up on those as well. And so stay tuned. We'll have plenty more coming for Matt Brown. I'm Damon Martin. We'll see you guys next week on another edition of the Fighter versus the Rider. Thanks for tuning in. And we'll see you then.

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