MMA Fighting - Fighter vs. Writer: Matt Brown, Josh Emmett React to UFC 273 Aftermath Including Khamzat Chimaev’s Defining Win, Alexander Volkanovski Dispatching Another Contender

Episode Date: April 12, 2022

On episode 31 of The Fighter vs. The Writer, Matt Brown and Josh Emmett join the show to break down all the action that took place this past weekend at UFC 273. Emmett was keeping a very close eye on the main event as reigning featherweight champion Alexander Volkanovski took out “The Korean Zombie” Chan Sung Jung. Of course, Emmett is gunning for a title shot of his own so he’ll give his thoughts on Volkanovski’s performance as well as how he feels like he matches up with the Australian champion. Both Brown and Emmett will discuss the scoring in the co-main event where Aljamain Sterling eked out a razor-close split decision win over Petr Yan to cement himself as the undisputed UFC bantamweight champion. Brown will also give his take on Khamzat Chimaev picking up the biggest win of his career over Gilbert Burns and if that victory is enough to convince him that the undefeated welterweight is ready for current champion Kamaru Usman. All this and much more on the latest episode of The Fighter vs. The Writer. Subscribe: Apple Podcasts Subscribe: Spotify Read More: MMA Fighting Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Nice travels. Wi-Fi available to Aero Pembers on equipped flights, Sponsored by Bell. Conditions apply. See Air Canada.com. You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. Welcome back to the Fighter versus the Writer. I'm your host, as always, Damon Martin. And today I am very excited to be joined by two guests.

This is kind of a rarity, and an exciting one of that. UFC 273 is now officially in the books. Alexander Volcanowski defended his title in the main event. Of course, Al Jermaine Sterling, cemented himself as the Undisputed Banterweight Champion. And of course, Hamza Tchaima, picked up a big win over Gilbert Burns and today I am excited to welcome in two guests to help me break down all the action of course right now let me introduce he is one of the top featherweights

in the sport he's coming off a big win over Dan Ege and his return to action we had him on co-hosting the show before his fight now he's back help me break down some things after the fight welcome in josh emitt Josh how are you I'm doing good thanks for having me on absolutely and of course you all know this guy he's a regular co-host going all the way back to a legit man shit all the way to the great MMA debate and the Fight Society podcast and everything else we've done for the last like, you know, 15 years together. Matt Brown, welcome back, Matt. I almost feel like I don't have to give you as much of an intro because you're just,

you're just like a regular here. That's fair enough. I forgot how many podcasts that we've done. Like 19 at this point, I think. Good stuff, guys. So we're going to talk, you know, get the entire card had a lot of big wins on it, of course. I mentioned before we started recording, of course, Mike, Mike Malott got a big win, and it was an awesome thing.

Of course, that's Team Alpha Mel. That's your teammate, Josh, big win there. Of course, also shouting out Joey Rodriguez to go fund me. I want to throw that out there as well, of course. And if you are looking for that, you can find it on Mike's Instagram page. I just tweeted out about it about an hour ago. So, again, keep an eye on my Twitter as well for that. But I thought that was really cool.

But we're mainly going to focus about the three main fights that everyone's kind of buzzing about in the aftermath, the two title fights. And, of course, Hamza, Shemai, and Gilbert Burns. And let's start right there, guys. Let's start with the Welta Wade fight because that was the one getting the most buzz going into the weekend. That was the one getting the most buzz coming out of the weekend. Hamza Tchamai and Gilbert Burns put on a freaking three-round war. Incredible fight.

Hamzat Chamaev ends up winning a unanimous decision, pushed further than he's ever been pushed in his career all the way to a decision and lost a round in the middle of that. Of course, lost the second round of Gilbert Burns. So, Matt, let me start with you. This is your division. I'm kind of curious. like Hamzaa Tamaya of hype versus reality. How impressed were you with what he did on Saturday night? I was really impressed, to be honest, man.

You know, Gilbert Burns ain't no joke, man. Like, you know, like every, just about anybody's going to lose a round to Gilbert Burns, man. That dude's legit as they get. So I was pretty impressed with Hobbs up, man. I thought he did a great job. I thought he shared a great composure, even, you know, when they were throwing down hard. and I was impressed with Burns too, man. So I just thought all around, there's a great fight and perfect step up for Hamzat.

I mean, you got to think, too, is what his fifth UFC fight, maybe six. Yeah, fifth UFC fight. Yeah, and he's already fighting Gilbert Burns. Like, that's no joke, man. That's legit right there. You cannot take anything away from Hamzaa for that fight. Josh, what about you? Yeah, no, I agree.

know, it's a Hamza, everyone in the UFC was good, but it was a huge step up in, you know, just, just technique and skill. And so he's going his fifth fight in the UFC. He hasn't really fought anyone in the top 15, the top 20. And then all of a sudden, he's fighting the number two ring guy in the world and in a tough, tough Gilbert Burns. So I think there was a lot of eyes on that fight just because some people were, you know, wondering if he could handle the test. And, you know, if it was hyper real, but then you hear a lot of people that he's trained with say how good he is. So I don't know, in my mind, I just, you know, I knew he was going to get tested for sure, but also just from his training partners, just talking so highly of him, I knew

he was probably the real deal. And then they both put on a hell of a fight. Yeah, it was, it was an amazing performance by both of them. Close fight, though. You know, I, you never know how people score those, the rounds, the judges, just because sometimes someone dropped someone, it'll be a 10-8 round. And I think in the second round, Hamzaal got dropped twice, right? So I was thinking, you know, the first round, Chimae won, the second round burns definitely one. I was wondering if it was like a 10-8 round, and then the third round was so close. So I was definitely expecting a split decision, but I wouldn't have been surprised if we saw another drop. Yeah, it was a war. It was a war. and, you know, in a weird way, you know, I think, I think, like, if Homslaude had gone out there and just rolled their Gilbert Burns, of course, I would have been incredibly impressive considering how good Gilbert Burns is, but I feel like he needed that kind of fight.

Like, we needed to see him walk through the fire and not, and get tested because we've seen that before, you know, I mean, I use Francis Ngondo as a great example. Like, Ngondo came in and just demolished everybody. I mean, I was at his fight with Overeem when he knocked Overeem's head into the fourth row. and I was like, oh my God, this guy looks unstoppable. Then he runs into Steve M. Miochish, and we see, oh, he has to go into a second round, and oh, he has to get wrestled. And, like, all these things, and we're like, oh, well, the luster's been knocked off of Francis de Gauna because we just realized that if he doesn't

get an early knockout, what happens? Now, of course, Francis improved got better. And, of course, now he's, you know, forced to be wrecked and best heavyweight in the sport. But I think, Chima, I have had to go through that. And I think if he would have just knocked out Gilbert Burns in 45 seconds or two minutes or whatever. We'd all be impressed. Of course, you just knocked out Gilbert Burns in two minutes, but I think he needed to go through that. Matt, I mean, you've been in there. You know what it's like to go through those wars and gut out a big win and come back and those kind of things. I mean,

I don't know. What would have impressed you more? Gilbert, you know, going out there and just eviscerating Gilbert Burns, or do you feel like he needed to go through that kind of fight with Gilbert Burns to prove that, you know, the hype is real around him? No, I agree with you. It was really good for him to go through that because he's going to go through that at some point, right? Like, he's still human like everybody. They could talk all this monster shit all they want, man. A dude's a human like everybody, man.

And you're in there in the UFC, you know, you're going to go with some savages, man. So he's going to have another fight like that, but now he's experienced it. So I think it was really good for him. And now if he would have went in there and knocked out Gilbert Burns in two minutes or something, yeah, that would be freaking impressive, man.

And that would be really, really crazy, especially if he submitted him or something like that. So I think it was really good for him. I think he's going to, you know, as long as he goes back and takes the lessons from it to improve, man, it's going to do wonders for him. But you know what? To be honest, I didn't see anything in that fight that showed me he's going to beat Usmano.

You know, that was the only negative that I would have to. out of that fight. Of course, you know, MMA math never works, you know, but the way that he beat Gilbert didn't make me think he's going to beat Usman. Colby, I guess, it's probably going to be his next fight. Just for, you know, who knows, but just from everything we're kind of seeing right now.

And I think that's another perfect step-up test for him. And I think it's, if you call it a step-up, I don't know who would win between Gilbert and Colby, but, you know, a five-round fight with someone like Kobe's going to show a lot, man. Yeah. Let me come back to that in a second. Josh, I want to ask you because you went through this,

and again, yours was under much different circumstances when you went through the fight with Shane Burgos. You blew out your knee, and we've talked about this many times. You fought with literally one leg against the guy, but you had to, like, gut out a tough performance and go out there and you, we all know, like, what you gain from that fight, even though, again, the worst case scenario was you injured your knee. If you didn't injure your knee, it may not have gone past the first round.

But point being is you had to go through that and you gain that. I mean, is there something to be gained from a fight like that for Homside? Like, do you feel like maybe he gains more from a war than he would a two-minute knockout? Or do you feel like a two-minute knockout's always going to be better? Yeah, no, I definitely think like the longer you're in there, the, it's just more experience, you know, and you learn a lot about yourself. If he hasn't gone past the first round and then obviously in the first four fights in the UFC, he hasn't even got punched once, you know, he's not really, he's not really learning a whole ton.

And he's just going in there ragdolling people, beating people up and making it look easy. But when you get into a actual fight and your backs against a cage and you have to fight, yeah, and you gain so much experience. And I think it's only going to benefit him in the long run. Because like Matt said, when he gets in there and he fights some of these top level guys, you know, anything can happen in a fight, you know, with four ounce gloves. But I think he's going to go through more of these, these, drug out wars and if he's been there before and then he can do it again and keep uh yeah just

keep you know just learning from that so i i think it was great better than a you know just a two two minute knockout and and then he's just in the same position he's been you know then he almost feels like invincible yeah let me go back to what you're to add to that davis yeah to add to that like it might have even gave him a spark that he needed to because like he said he was ragdoll and all these guys walking in. And maybe he thought he was going to do that to everybody. And now he gets a tough fight. And he's like, oh, I got to pick my training up a little more.

You know, I need to work a little bit harder or something. You know, maybe he was getting a little complacent before. It is possible. I have no idea what his training is or, you know, I don't know people to train with them or anything. So, you know, I can't speak on that. But it's a possibility that could have lit a fire under his ass, man. He's going to come out an even better version.

Yeah, I agree. Let me circle back to what you were saying before about the Ousman factor here Because you know I listen I think Chamaev has looked incredible But I was I was I was a bit of a doubter I picked Gilbert Burns to win this fight now I don't feel Really wrong because Gilbert gave him everything you could handle and I agree with Josh You could potentially score that fight going the other way I don't think it would be anyone that egregious thing if Gilbert Burns won that fight It was close again I don't have a problem with Chayahia. I would agree with that If they gave Burns that fight I'd be pegged

pissed. Like, that'd be, yeah, like, it was a close fight, no doubt, but Kumaev won that fucking fight. We know he lost the second round. If you gave him Gilbert a 10-8 in the second round, I'd be okay with that if you gave it a draw, but there's no way to Hansa lost the first or third round. Yeah, that's what I was saying. I was saying that he won the first and third.

So it would be split decision, Chimaia or a draw. That's kind of what I was thinking, but obviously they gave him that. the win. Yeah, it was a great fight though. And so, again, I pick Gilbert going in because I was not convinced. I mean, again, it's not that I didn't think Chamae was good. It's just that I have a huge list of resume for Gilbert Burns. I know what he did to Woodley. I know how he did against Oosman. Even though he lost, I know how he did enough fight. He dropped Ousman. You know what I did the Wonderboy and all the other guys he's fought. I was like, you know what? Gilbert Burns is legit. And I was, I picked him to win the fight. Now, Chamaev, of course, looked incredible. It was a great fight. But kind of like what you said, Matt. and I want to come back to this real quick, is you said that, you know, nothing you saw enough if I convinced you who beat Usman. Now, coming into it, I said, I still think Usman is the best in the world

and as good as Chamaif has looked, I still don't see anybody beating Kamar Usman right now. Now eventually, you know, Usman will get older, you know, time catches up to everyone. Maybe that happens, you know, two, three years down the road. But right now where he's at, I just, it's hard for me to pick anybody

to beat Kamar Usman. And what you said right there is, I agree with. I think Chamaev looked incredible. I think he looked amazing. and I'm so incredibly impressed by his win. But if you're asking me to pick the fight right now, I still pick Usman to beat him. And I actually think Colby would be a really interesting match

because while Colby doesn't have the punching power that Usman or Burns has, he does have that conditioning, he does have that wrestling, he has that ability to push the pace for five hard rounds. And I am very curious to see how Hamzot would do in a five-round fight. You know what I mean? How can he keep up with a guy like Colby who compress that pace? who, you know, Kobe does have a good chin.

I mean, not to say you want to go out there and, you know, get your jaw broken every fight, but he does have a good chin. I mean, we saw him get leveled by Usman in the second fight and he came back. So, Matt, I mean, again, I'm not going to make you repeat what you said, but again, I kind of agree with you. Nothing I saw at Chamaia. Have I impressed, yes. Beating Usman?

I don't know about that. Yeah, that's kind of my tech away from the whole thing. You know, the hype was real, but, you know, Usman deserves as much hype as Kamaya, right? Like, like, he's, you know, he's the best in the world right now, man. So, again, I didn't see anything, but, you know, again, maybe this might light up fire under Hamzat's ass, man. He might train even harder. He might show more stuff that we ain't seen, you know.

And that's why, like you said, I think Colby's the perfect test for him. And I hope they make that fight. I think that's the perfect matchup. I think that's, you know, and if he goes out there and beats Colby, beats him good, boy, I mean, he's going to, Usman Kamayaev is going to be a huge fight then, man. Colby's a perfect guy, not only in the sense of, you know, testing Hamzat again, a huge five-round fight, but also if he beats him, like, you know, the hype just gets even bigger. And Usman Hamzaat fight is gigantic at that point. Yeah, what about you, Josh? And again, you know the sport, you understand the sport.

No, no, we're picking fights that are, again, hypothetical, and we're fantasy matchmaking here. But what about you? Where are you fall? If Hamzad fought Usman tomorrow, who would you pick? I agree with you guys. It's hard to go against the champion, you know, and Usman, it just, he continues to show how good he is in each fight.

He gets better and better. And, you know, he's a phenomenal wrestler, which is Chimaa as well. but I just don't, I don't see Palmsot beating Usman if they were to fight next. You know, just from what we saw in the last week's fight. Yeah. Let's shift gears and talk about the co-main event. Matt, I know you're going to be fired up in this particular topic

because I know you were fired up on Saturday night, talking about the scoring, which was Al Jermann Stirling, defeating Peter Jan to defend his title and become the end-speed of Bantamweight champion. Now, I've said on the record, I scored the fight 48-46 for Sterling. I thought he won a 10-8 second round. To me, that was pretty clear.

I re-watched it yesterday. I don't see how they didn't give him a 10-8. No judge gave him a 10-8 in the second round. I thought that was ridiculous. I mean, that was a completely lopside a round. And by the current criteria of scoring, which I went on Twitter and played out yesterday, and even Michael Bisping backed me up. Let me get a little back up here from a Hall of Famer.

Michael Bisping backed me up on this. I thought it was a 10-8 round clearly. The real controversy in this fight seems to stem from the first round, though. How did you score it? Now, the reality is, I scored it a 10-9 for Sterling. I don't have a problem with it being a 10-9 for Yon. It was a close round.

I don't think it was like a lopside around one way or the other. If anything, you could argue maybe a 10-10, because it was pretty even all the way around. It didn't really go lopsided one way or another. But, Matt, I know you were pretty fired up about it on Saturday nights. Let me ask you, how did you score the fight in total? And do you have a problem with the way it went in terms of Al Jermaine winning? Oh, shit.

Hold on. mess it up on the phone. I don't know how to use it. If you gave the second round 10-8, I would be totally cool with that. The first round, I don't know how you or any of the judges. I love you, Damon.

I don't know how to fucking give 10-9 to Al Jermaine. I think that's ridiculous, man. And, you know, really what the, maybe the larger issue is here, is it's, you know, it's very subjective still. And I can see where guys that, like, maybe never, maybe, you know, don't train regularly or don't spa or whatever, we give that to Sterling because, you know, looks like he's doing a lot.

He's, like, move in and all this. But I think, like, for people that train and fight, we know, like, Al Jermaine's doing terrible footwork. and just kind of spamming strikes, meaningless strikes. So, you know, people always bring up these numbers. For one, those numbers are just people that are clicking buttons to say, like, this was a strike or this was a snippet of a strike, which is garbage to start with. They don't even know 90% of the time.

But second, a lot of that, like, if you're, like, running away like that, that's meaningless work. Like, you're just wasting your time. Yon is coming forward trying to initiate action, trying to make something happen, working on getting positions, being efficient, being intelligent. And I value that way higher than someone dancing around spamming ineffective strikes. But again, I think that's because I train and I fight. Like if I go into a round, I say like a sparring round or something,

I mean, we get these guys all the time that dance around and spam, you know, ineffective things. And I sit there and just kind of laugh at them. But then when people doing a fight, these judges that really don't know nothing about training and fighting seem to score that higher. Josh, what about you? Am I completely wrong that I scored it for Al Jamein 10-9 in the first round? Yeah. Well, who knows? But it's, I thought Yon won that first round as well. You know, just because I look at the rule set and it's Octagon Control. And he, He's pressuring him like Matt saying.

And Al Jermaine was, you know, he was dancing around, not really getting, getting hit by a whole lot of things. But he wasn't landing like significant strikes. But I did give that round one to yawn. And then going into the other rounds when Al Jamein took him down and, you know, he was trying on his body and controlled him the entire time. Definitely I gave those to Al Jamein. But I was again thinking what the judges are scoring that.

Is that a 10-8 round? You know, like I would be okay. with that as well, just because he controlled him for, you know, the remainder, most of the round. And that was a second and third round, right, that he had his back the whole time. But it's like, then again, I feel like we need more of a curriculum or some of these judges need to maybe have some type of training experience or fights or whatever, you know, because a lot of times you also, some of these boxing, or I mean, these judges come from a boxing background, So they're, and this is MMA.

So they're predominantly scoring based off of, you know, jabs and just punches. So it's like I really think we need to do something moving forward. It was funny. I went through the other day, you know, because I was pretty pissed about the scoring in my fight too, you know. And I was looking up some judges and I looked up their personal pages and stuff. And I looked at their backgrounds. And a lot of them, you know, so there was some boxing ones. But you know what I've seen the most of?

It was like traditional martial arts people. I was like, what the fuck do they know about anything? But the point is, it is still guys that just, they don't fight. You know, I think when I looked at, when I was scrolling through Twitter, I noticed the media scored a lot more for Sterling. The fighters scored a lot more for Yon. But it's very interesting, the people that have fought. people that train regularly, people that know.

See, there's a feeling when you train or when you fight, when you, when you spar around. There's a feeling between the two of you. You both know who really won that fucking round. Right. Like you both, you know, there's just a mutual emotional feeling. Like you know who really won. You know who the better guy was, whether it would have been scored that way or not.

And I think that's probably how fighters judge the rounds more often. whereas the media and and it's not hating on you either damon don't take all this derogatory anything like i love you bro but the media and the judges all see it a different way because they get they've never been in there they've never felt what those emotions are yeah let me ask this because i don't i don't have honestly i don't have a problem with with round one going to yon it was a close round like i i have no problem of yon winning that round but let's let me ask about the second round because, okay, let's say the first round is 10-9, Peter Yan. Okay, let's just, let's just put that aside.

He won 10-9, okay. That's a 10-9 round for Peter Jan. Then you look at the second round, which was, you know, four minutes and plus change of Aljimene on his back, working for submissions, gets him down on the ground and hammers him some pretty good ground and pound for a few seconds there, where he really, was really working for a finish in that moment. Dominated, four minutes, dominate on his back, not just, not just to take down. on his back for four minutes, whatever it was.

To me, clear-cut 10-8 round. There's no controversy for me there, 10-8. So at that point, we're talking about a draw, but just that 10-8. Now, the third round was also pretty lopsided for Al Jermaine, but it wasn't quite as lopsided, so I didn't score that one at 10-8.

But the second round, like, compare it to the first. You're saying the first round's 10-9. Okay, again, I'm okay with that. But then compared that to the second round, second round wasn't close. It wasn't remotely close. There was moments where it looked like maybe, maybe Sterling was going to put him away.

He didn't, and Yon survived, but I don't know. You tell me, Matt, I'll ask you, because you, you obviously felt pretty impassioned about the first round. 10-8 and second, I just don't see how no judge, not, what are the three judges? No one gave him a 10-8 round. I'm totally fine with that being a 10-8 round. And, I mean, that just gets into the whole discussion about our scoring system all around.

I mean, you know, you, I mean, like what we're just talking about, you take a round like that, you know, and it wins just as much as, well, the first round, you know, which was whoever won it, it was an Uber close round. And, but the second round, you know what I mean? They're both 10, nine rounds either way, even one, even though one was completely dominant and one was, you know, relatively close. So it's, it's a, the scoring system is just. junk, man. And I mean, it always has been. And the judges are junk. And that's why they always say, don't leave in the hands of judges. Like, that's what we're fucking trying to do. Like, I wanted to sit in there and outpointed this guy, you know? So, you know, that's a whole other discussion, I think. But hopefully we can make it better, man. I think we just keep talking about it

and keep being vocal about it. Hopefully something will happen. Yeah. Josh, let me ask you, because this has been a subject that's come up a lot. I know Matt talked about it after his fight, which, you know, kind of ended in that same kind of controversy going into that third round. I know you talked about on Ariel's show last week, so let me ask you, Josh, you know, you've had obviously a lot of finishes, but you've had some decisions in there, you know, mixed in there here and there. Where do you fall on the argument about open scoring?

Because a lot of people believe, like, if you know the score going into it, you know, at that point, now, based on the scoring for this fight, Al Jemate would have been up, you know, to that point where basically, you know, no one gave Mettini around the second, but Sterling was up. So, Yon, now granted, one judge did score Yon winning the fight, but Yon knowing that, would that have changed the performance in the fifth round, knowing he was down on two other scorecards, meaning he would have had to get a finish in that fifth round to win the fight? I don't know. Where do you fall in the argument of it have been scoring? I'm for it, and I get the drama and I get the argument saying that, you know, people would try to reserve themselves. they might try to coast the victory.

I don't believe that. I think the same thing when you say, if you stop giving people winning show money, they'd stop fighting hard because they're already getting all their money. I think it's ridiculous. Like, you're going to fight hard because you want to win.

No fighter is going to coast to a loss just because they know they're getting all their money. I mean, come on. That's just ridiculous. But how do you feel about open score? I'm not saying it would have changed anything. I'm not saying it would have changed the result. But would Peter or Yon have maybe taken a few more chances

in that fifth round, knowing on two judges, as a scorecards. He was down, you know, pretty, you know, I don't know, you tell me, like, how do you feel about what open scoring? Would you be open to open scoring or, or do you not like it? Yeah, no, I would be 100% open to it, you know, because like Matt's saying, I've been in, I get so pissed at the judging, uh, scoring because I feel the same way. I feel like these guys don't know what they're doing. It's like, they complete, it's just their opinion, you know, it's like, you could be dominating a fight for four and a half minutes.

And then everyone's like, oh, just still the round. You take someone down, finish strong on top with some ground and pound. And then that's the last thing in their mind. So they score the 10-9 round for the guy that won the last 30 seconds. So if there was open scoring, I would be all for it. Because at least you know going in like what the judges are scoring round by round. You know, and that's how it should go down. It's round by round.

So if you see you're down, then me personally, I can't speak on everyone else. But I'm always trying to finish the fight. Like, I'm not ever trying to leave it in the judge's score, you know, or their hands, because no one ever does that. But, yeah, I would even, I would take more risks if I had to because at the end of the day, it's either we're going to get half our pay, which is just based off to somebody's opinion. And maybe John would have took a bigger risk. You know what I mean?

If you looked at the scorecard, like you looked at any other game or whatever you're doing, you know who's winning, who's losing. So maybe they like football. It's like they're going to throw Hail Mary's if they have, if they're down by a touchdown and or they're down by a field goal, they're going to get closer to that end zone so they can kick a field goal to tie or win or score another touchdown. So you have to take bigger risk.

And I think most people would. And you're not going to coast to winning when a guy's down and he's doing everything and his power to, you know, try to hurt you and take big risk. You're not just going to coast to a, a win or a decision. So I would love to see that, you know, or at least maybe test it out and see kind of what happens. Yeah, I make for more fighting fights.

Who knows? Yeah, I agree. And I just think, like I said, I just think that, you know, you know, listen, it doesn't take away bad judging because there's terrible judging in the sport. I agree with you guys. There's really bad judging. But at least you know, I mean, you can, like you said, if you came into a third round and you're down, you know, 2018,

and you're like, how in the hell that I'm, I lose the first round. But at least you know, at least you know going in, the judge has already got it wrong. So at least you know going to that third round, hey, I need to get a finish because they're already going to screw me. So I might as well at least go out there. You know what I mean? Like, it just, it's so weird to me that some people are against it.

I just don't understand it. Again, I don't know if it would have changed the outcome. I don't know if Peter Young would have just gone balls to the wall and tried to get a finish. I have no idea. But at least he would have known. You know, at least he would have known going in the fit. Hey, I'm down on two scorecards.

Like, I'm down. Because at that point, it was over. because the judges who gave the fight to Al Jermaine scored him winning the first three rounds. So Peter Yon would have known going into that fifth round, I have to finish or I'm going to lose this fight. He would have known going into it, you know? He would have known in the fourth round too, right? So he'd know I got two rounds to do it, right? Yeah.

But I was just to say something. So, you know, the fact is I think it's factual that if we have. open scoring, there will be guys take advantage of it and stall and we'll have a boring third round here and there. But I'm okay with that personally. You know, it is still a sport, you know, and I know that the crowd, they just want blood and they just want to get drunk and yell with their hillbilly friends and all that shit. And that's cool.

But there's still enough exciting fights. There's still enough knockouts to satisfy all. the bloodthirsty hillbillies. You know what I'm saying? Like this, it's not like our sport's going to get any less exciting. There, I can guarantee there will be guys take advantage of it

and sprint around the cage the last round. But I'm okay with that sacrifice, you know, to have a more fair scoring system. And also hold the judges accountable. Right now they read off the score cards. and you know you have to go Google who scored it and who who scored what round, et cetera, et cetera.

Like they should, the fans should know, the fighters should know straight away right then when it happens. Yeah, I agree. Because most people take the time to do all the Googling and research, right? But right there on the spot, we should know. Like, how the fuck did that guy score 10-9 for him? why didn't he score around 210 8? You know what I mean? Things like that.

And I think when it's right on the spot, the judges will be a little, even a little bit more accountable. Yeah, I think we can just keeping those judges accountable because you can see if they score one guy 10, 9, and the other person won. You'll hear it from the fans.

You know, they'll be booing them and stuff like that because we've seen shitty calls where it goes the complete opposite way. And everybody knows, you know what I mean? And they're booing them. So at least round by, round, it'll make the judges be a little more honest as well. Yeah, I agree.

And I think accountability is a big part because we just never see changes. We never see judges punished for really bad, terrible cards. They start to take them away from working. Like, I give credit to creditors. I'm a big, big fan of Andy Foster and what he's done in California because I talked to Frank Trigg. I talked to Frank Trigg several weeks ago. He was on podcast with me.

He was talking about what he had to go through to become a licensed referee in California. And he started how he had to referee like 100. of matches at the amateur level and then work his way to pro and the work is like, Andy has a much deeper system to become a judge or referee in California. I think they're the gold standard of commissions in America. And of course, there's still going to be people who get it wrong. We're never going to be, it's never going to be infallible. We all know that. But at least he's trying. At least he's trying to make these people better judges, you know, like, I think he has a requirement where you have to have a certain belt in jiu-jitsu or something to be an MMA judge.

Like things like that, little things like that make a difference. Um, and I, and I just wish more people would do it. And then, like I said, if you just blow a scorecard terribly bad and everyone knows you blew it, maybe not the first time, but the second time you do it or whatever, you need to be taken off. Like, don't, you know, it's just like refereeing. Like, like why we stop seeing Steve Mazzagati referee fights is that, you know, if you're getting it wrong so often, you shouldn't be able to referee UFC fights. But I'm not saying, like, the regional fighters you just get, just get screwed.

But I'm just saying, like, work your way back up because you clearly don't. You don't deserve to be in there. Hack the holidays with the PC Holiday Insiders Report. Try this PC Porchetta. Crackling, craveworthy. You gonna eat that? Who are you? I'm the voice for the next ad, car commercial.

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Again, we could talk about that all day. I don't want to keep you guys all day, but I do want to talk about the main event because this is right in your wheelhouse, Josh. This is your division. Alexander Volcanowski with a completely dominant performance to go out and finish the Korean zombie in the fourth round. I think it could have been stopped at the end of the third.

I like the Korean zombie's a legend. He became the Korean zombie for a reason because he has an incredible chin, great durability. But he was really taking some shots there. And Volkanowski looked incredible. Of course, Walkinovsky was a huge favorite. I don't think anyone is terribly surprised that he won. But this is your division, Josh.

What did you think? I mean, I know we've talked about Alexander Volcanovsky and the past in our interviews when you co-hosted the show before your last fight. So what did you think of Volkinovsky's performance? Yeah, man, I think he looked good. He's the best right now. And it kind of went down exactly how I thought it was going to go down. You know, he had the blueprint to be.

the zombie he's he's beat max holloway you know that the first one was i i thought he he won that fight uh fair and square pretty decisively the second one you know is super close um some people have it the other way but then he beat brian ortega and you know i just feel like those guys are you know they're better than the zombie even though the zombie is a phenomenal fighter he's been in the sport for a great for a long time you know he's uh he's a legend but i just anything can happen like i always say in a in a m-ma fight but i i thought um hands down volkanowski would go in there and kind of just you know i thought he put him away a little earlier honestly is what i thought um but but he did well and um yeah it's kind of went exactly how i thought it was going to go down

matt what's your assessment again you come from a from a moitai from a striking background i thought vulcanowski striking and again you know we can take it into consideration that maybe, you know, zombies is a little more available to hit, let's say. I mean, you get a nickname like the zombie for a reason. It's not because you're ducking and dodging a lot of punches. But that being said, I thought Vulcan obviously looked crisp. He was on point. And, you know, and sometimes, like, you know, we know how it goes sometimes.

When you're expected to win, you know, those are sometimes tougher fights because everyone's, like, grading you on a higher scale. You know what I mean? Like, if you would have gone out there and had a split decision win, we'd all be talking today about, oh, my God, how did you go to a split decision with the guy you were a minus 700 favorite? beat or whatever. He went out there and did exactly what he was supposed to do. Yeah, I agree, man.

It was a great performance by Volcanoowski. And I'm excited to see what he's going to do next, man. I want to see if Triple C comes back. Want to see if he moves up a weight class. You want to see a lot of different things out there for him, man. So I'm excited to see his future. And I love watching the guy fight, man. how far why we got josh here how far away are you from a title shot man who knows they just

keep flip-flopping us back and forth so uh i was six they just put alan in front of me after his win so uh who knows man i think i was kind of in the talks about that that particular one when max got injured it was between uh they were saying between zombie nine and they they went with him which i think was a a great you know move on their end just because i fan i'm I think Volcanox and I match up stylistically, like you're talking about in the May math, like, man, that's a good, good matchup for me. And we're so similar in styles

that I think it makes for an exciting fight that would be, you know, do the fans would be really excited for that one. Yeah, I was about to say that, you know, the matchup-wise, Volcanowski match, the funny thing with Volcanowski is sometimes the guys that are in thinking,

matched up well with Brian Ortega, and he smashed him. But not smashed him. That was a fucking great fight. I just take that back. But, you know, that was a great fight. And he beat him good. But, man, when I think of all the people left in the division, Josh probably matches up better than anybody else I can think of.

I mean, I can't think of it. Or maybe Triple C, too, if he comes back, which who knows, you know, he seems to be coming back every two or three months. So, like I said, I'm excited to see his future, man. You know, maybe he moves up. Maybe he fights Josh. Maybe he fights Triple C. He's just an exciting guy, man.

I'm just a huge fan of his. So I just love watching him fight. Let me ask you this, Josh, not to like just turn it back all on you. But, you know, listen, because we talked before your last fight, you know, we said that, you know, you're one of the last guys standing in the division who hasn't fought Volkanowski and kind of earned it. and where you're at right now, you know, being on the wind streak you're on, you know, if you would have gotten a fight with him this weekend, I don't think anyone would have been shocked or stunned or surprised or anything like that.

Again, credit, you know, they gave it to zombie. Okay, good for him. But it feels like the UFC keeps moving the goalposts on you a little bit because now, you know, everyone's talking about, well, maybe it's going to be the third fight with Max. And again, Max is incredible. You know, but listen, I agree with you. I thought he, I thought Alex clearly won the first fight. I actually scored Max winning the second fight, but it was a close fight.

I have no problem with Volcanovsky getting the win. It was just a really close fight. And again, that's not a robbery when it's a close fight. It was just a close fight. You know, Yair just lost to Max. You know, I mean, Calvin Cater. I love Calvin Cater. He's coming off a big win.

But, of course, we saw him lose to Max as well. You know, you're kind of one of the last guys standing out there who should be in that conversation. But then, you know, Max is there. And then you got Triple C. And listen, I love Henry Sehudo as much as the next guy. But then, like, he's talking about, like, I don't know, do you ever think to yourself, like, man, stop moving the goalpost. Like, tell me what I got to do to get that title shot.

Stop putting other people in front of me. Man, all the time. That's, uh, it's, it's just been the story of my, my career, but it's like, I know I can compete with the best in the world. I feel like I'm the best in the world. And, uh, I just need my opportunity. And then I'll, I'll show, um, everybody that doesn't know me, my coaches and teammates, how great I am.

Um, so yeah, yeah, that, that is the fight I want. It's, uh, like I keep saying stylistically, that is the best matchup for me. and fortunately he's the champion as well. So, you know, I come from a wrestling background. I feel like I'm more powerful. I feel like my striking is really good. And don't get me wrong, he hasn't been beaten in the UFC. But man, you know, I, I just want that opportunity.

Yeah. So what that means- Like, Sehudo, I was, you know, I like watching him fight. I liked watching him wrestle when, you know, you know, when he was wrestling for the Olympics and everything. thing like that, but I don't even think he's in the testing pool, right? So I know people, or is he did he get back in the testing pool? He got, he re-entered it.

So I talked to his manager last night. He re-entered it today, but he has to go through six months of testing before he can fight. I think everyone kind of like jumps ahead and he's always going to fight tomorrow. He wouldn't be eligible to fight until October, November, at the earliest. Like, that's the earliest he could fight as October November. Okay, so that's the one thing. I know he's just like trolling a lot of people, but when he's saying he's coming back,

I'm like, I don't even think he comes. until now, obviously until November, like you're saying, if you just entered the testing pool. Yeah. So let me ask you, Josh, real quick, with that being said. I mean, again, you know, Volcanovsky just fought, in my mind, and I say this in honesty, whether you're on the show or not, I really do mean this. If you got a title shot tomorrow, I don't think anyone should complain. I think it'd be a great fight, and I'd love to see it. But I'm being realistic in terms of what the UFC's going to do. They're going to make you fight again. We all know that. You know, that's just the way the world's going to come out. Whether it's Max getting the next shot, I think they're going to give it to Max.

And again, you know, I'm not terribly disappointed, even though, you know, he's 0 and 2 right now, but I love Max. I think Max is a legend, and I'd love to see that fight again. Hypothetically, you're going to fight again. Let's just throw it out there. I know, like, a guy like Bryce Mitchell had mentioned your name, and that's fine, but I think it's got to be you and a higher-rank guy. And I listen, Arnold Allen looked great in his last fight and fine with that. I think that would be a natural number one contenders fight, considering you guys were both on win-streaks in the division. Brian Ortega is out there.

Yario Rodriguez is out there. Calvin Cater's out there. What does make the most sense for you in terms of what's next if it's not the champion? Yeah, and that's one thing I was talking about. They were trying to make, I think, Max and I fight, but he's next in line for the title fight. So I think he's just going to sit back and wait for that. And I can't knock him for that. I would probably do the same thing.

And then they mentioned Bryce and Mitchell and, and really whoever it's like there's really nobody that I wanted to fight in March or April and then no one would be accepted a fight against me and so who knows really I'm just sitting back and waiting you know they're trying to make people coming off the winds and they talk about yae and Ortega fighting each other um so I was like there there was Max and then there's cater and then they just moved Allen in front of me and then the only other person is uh Bryce Mitchell, like you said, he's coming off a win, but he's behind me. I would like to fight up, but we'll see what happens.

What they offer me, I've been waiting for a while. Yeah, Matt, you know what that's like. You understand that waiting game and the kind of politics to play into it. You've been there. You know that it's frustrating, right? Like, it sucks. When you know you're there and it's just like you're not getting the matchups you should be getting.

Or again, like I said, they keep moving the goalposts on Josh with like, you know, Oh, well, Triple C's coming back. And oh, what about this? What about that? I'm like, it can get frustrating. I understand how it can be. Well, I sort of know how it is. I probably made the mistake of never waiting.

I probably could have waited and got better matchups and closer to the title and stuff. But, you know, it's a different time period now. You know, back in my day, it was like, not that I'm like some old time or anything, but, you know, a few years. you know it was like you just fight man and um that's not hating on no one for waiting you know i think if that's absolutely a better move i would say if anything i made uh uh poor poor decisions

and deciding not to wait because but whatever i fucking love fighting man and that's one of the things even with uh you know shelby and stuff to this day every i've been the same thing and it's like maybe i should wait back i should sit back and wait but i fill out of like I'm not getting any younger. I want to stay active when I'm healthy. And so I've said yes to every single fight. He's offered me no matter what. If there was people behind me in front of me, like he can contest to that.

Even if I've heard people say that I got, they got offered to fight me and I turned it down, I was never offered that fight. And I've said yes to every single fight. And it's within that day I get offered, probably within the first few hours I think about it. And I'm like, let's do it. So it's, uh,

and I probably should have sat back and turned something. things down that, you know, the Stevens fight when I was going to fight up for a title Eliminator and then that didn't go through. So then they offered me Stevens, maybe if I would have, you know, things could play out different, but it's, it is what it is. And it's like, you know, I had a setback and then I worked my ass off to get back to where I'm at. But now I just want those big fights and those big opportunities. Yeah. So now you are. That's why the UFC loves people like us, man. Like, I'm the same as Josh. They call. They call me, I don't even, like, Sean calls me and I say, okay, period.

Like, you know what I mean? And he knows it. He doesn't have to, like, yeah, there's no question. He already knows before he calls me. He's calling me to make it formal, you know what I mean? They love people like us, bro. And that's the same thing that I always thought, you know, like he knows. So he'll reach out knowing that no one will take it and then they'll call my manager.

And then he knows I'm in. Like, I've said yes every time. but then I also think because I sit back and I'm like, do they love those yes men or like, but I feel like it hasn't paid off for me yet. So I'm just like, oh, come on. I mean they love it as you know, it makes it a job easy. Yeah. Yeah, that's, it is.

It's a situation. And I don't want to, I'm not doing this like insulting your past opponents, Matt, but I remember one time I talked to you about a fight that got made and you said something to the effect of, I came or the guy's name, but yeah, I said yes. Like that's the Matt Brown way. I remember that asked you one time. I was like, are you fighting this guy?

You're like, I think so. I don't know, whatever's name was. I said yes. That's, well, it's probably been many opponents.

I mean, before the UFC, I would go fight, you know, I didn't even know the opponent until I got there, you know, but,

you know, the only reason I know of now is because they're on TV and stuff. But, you know, that's, whatever, you know, that's a,

we're fucking warriors, man. This is what we do. You know, I say it all the time, man. We're just, at least for me. And I imagine Josh feels the same way. You know, I'm just, I feel grateful and blessed to live this life that I live, man. If we were born 20 years earlier, you know, we wouldn't have had this opportunity. So, or maybe 30 years at this point.

But, yeah, absolutely. Josh, real quick, for I get you out of here, I know you said you wanted to fight March, April. What is it looking like now? Because, of course, their booking fights into the summer already. ready we've seen some fights book for june and july uh what are you looking at i mean it sounds like you're ready to go so i can't imagine you want to sit much longer yeah no like yeah i wanted to fight as soon as possible i just want to eight-week notice like honestly if if i'm going to take a a short notice fight um and it's a huge opportunity don't i'll take it no matter what even if it's

not ideal but if it's going to be more risky or i'm just going to fight more people behind me i just want at least like seven eight weeks you know what i mean so i can be at my best because if I take a fight on like a three-week notice against a huge risk that it does no good for me besides just to make a paycheck, I won't be at my best. So that's that's all I'm asking. Just give me seven, eight weeks, possibly in June would be great. I should actually hear from my manager today. They've been talking to Sean and and Hunter and all those guys what they're uh what they're going to do with me just because you know i yeah we're just trying to find the podcast for later damon you would have got to scoop man i know i showed you done it's like four

hours from now i would have got the scoop uh well like i said i i i whatever happens i hope it's a big fight because i really do believe you know you're you're at worst one or two wins away from a title shot i mean again i don't think anyone could argue right now but just look at the lay the land i know how the uc does i'm going to say at least one win and i hope it's that kind of fight that would get you there. I would love to see you fight Max. I think that'd be a great fight. But, you know, whether it's Max or Arnold Allen or, and again, I have nothing against Bryce Mitchell. I just, you know, he's behind you in the rankings. I think, you know, would make more sense for you to fight an Arnold Allen or a Max Holloway or a Calvin Cater even,

you know, you know, to kind of earn that title shot, but that's just me. Whatever the case may be, I look forward to when you're fighting again, Josh. You know that. And of course, we'll get you back on the show as we finally get your opponent and can talk about your fight. Matt, we'll do this again very soon, I'm sure. Always good to have you back on the show. show and I always laugh because I question for Josh so real quick go ahead anybody ever tell you you sound just like

Lance Palmer they sound like Lance Palmer yeah you train with them right because I don't know yeah I keep thinking I'm talking to Lance on the phone right I guess I'm Lance is Lance was out here

in Columbus training with you not too long ago wouldn't you Matt? Yeah he just went out Vegas for training camp, but yeah, we train together all the time. He's got the NFL starting up again, right? Yeah, exactly, yep. Yep, good stuff. Well, guys, thank you so much for doing this.

It was a lot of fun. I really do appreciate it. Well, I have to do it again. Like I said, I wanted to kind of do more of these roundtables for these kind of big fights, and it's just fun to break things down with, as you said, Matt, the fighters know more. I'm not going to lie to you. That's why I have you guys on to break things down, because, again, that's how I learned. So I appreciate you guys doing this.

So I had to argue with you on something, right? Yeah, I mean, listen, it's okay that I was right this time and you were wrong. I mean, that's okay. It's okay to be that way. But, you know, just so you know, I'm just throwing that out there. So, you know, just. You were right? I was right.

I mean, it's okay that I'm right this time. I'm just saying, like, you know, it's okay that I was right this time. But, you know, that's fine. You can think otherwise. You could think that you'd be wrong, but you can think otherwise. I mean, it's fine. I feel like you just said there was no wrong answer, though. Well, here's the, here's the, here's the, you're talking about round one.

You're like, you're like, there's no wrong answer. Now you're saying you were right. Here's the, here's the real thing. Matt lives 10 minutes from my house. If I really got something wrong, Matt would just come over here and smack me for it. So, you know, that's the reality of it. So, uh, guys, again, thank you so much for doing this. I really appreciate it.

We'll have to do this again. Josh, hopefully next time we talk, you get a fight booked. Matt, of course, always good to have you on. I'm sure you'll be back on here. proving me wrong soon enough before anything else. So guys, thanks so much again for doing this and we'll talk to you both soon, okay?

All right. All right. There you guys. There you go. Matt Brown, Josh, I'm a big thank you to both of them for coming on the show. Cannot say the thank you enough for both of them. This is fun.

Kind of a different experience doing it with two fighters on the show. It's called Fighter versus Rider, so why not have two fighters versus a rider? Good stuff here. Appreciate everyone tuning in, as always, to the podcast. We'll be back next week with more from the fallout this week. And of course,

we've got Vicente Lucke taken on Belal, Muhammad, and the main event from the UFC Apex. So stay tuned for that one this weekend. We'll be back next week with more Fighter versus Rider. Of course, always check us out on all of your favorite podcast platforms, Apple Podcast, Spotify, and of course over on MMAFighting.com. A big thank you once again to Matt Brown and Josh Jim, and we'll see you next week.

Thanks for tuning in. See you then. We're listening to the Vox Media Podcast. network. Okay, only 10 more presents to wrap. You're almost at the finish line. But first, there, the last one. Enjoy a Coca-Cola for a pause that refreshes.