MMA Fighting - Fighter vs. Writer: Matt Brown Names His Fighter of the Year, Looking Ahead to the Biggest Storylines in 2025

Episode Date: December 24, 2024

On the year-end edition of The Fighter vs. The Writer, Matt Brown and Damon Martin give their picks for the 2024 Fighter of the Year and start looking ahead at some of the biggest storylines in 2025. Will Tom Aspinall vs. Jon Jones actually happen? Will Conor McGregor fight in 2025? What happens to the PFL and a new upstart organization like the GFL? All this and much more on our special edition of The Fighter vs. The Writer to close out the year Subscribe to MMA Fighting Check out our full video catalog Like MMA Fighting on Facebook Follow on Twitter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You're listening to the Vox Media Podcast Network. Welcome back to the Fighter versus the writer. I am Damon Martin. He is UFC legend Matt Brown. And Matt, we are finally at the end of 2024. We are getting ready for 2025. It is our year-end episode and kind of a look ahead at USC. You look ahead at what's coming in 2025.

But before we get started anything else, you get to go to your first Ohio State football game over the weekend. Yeah, yeah. Well, it was actually my second. I forgot. And after thinking about it, but the first one was like some, you know, low-level game. Like they just beat the crap out of some team.

I forget who it was. But yeah, man, that was really exciting, bro. That's a high-energy crowd, man. It was a lot of fun. A little bit too many people bumping into me. I don't really care for that shit. But, you know, once you get into the seats, man, like, you know, we were like two rows from the, on Tennessee side, like, you know, two rows back.

So, you know, seeing the game up close like that, it's always a lot of fun, man. crazy good athletes out there. Yeah, you had some crazy good seats. I saw where you were sitting. I was like, damn, man, you had some awesome seats. Yeah,

it was awesome, man. And it was a great time. Obviously, Ohio State, whoop their asses, like, which I guess not everybody was expecting

so much, right? And, man, there were so many Tennessee fans there. So it turned out to be a lot of fun. Yeah, it's a good time. I like,

I've gone to a bunch of Ohio State games. It's always fun. But, man, you had some weather on Saturday. Man, it was cold as hell down there. I was like, That's where it's just like, man, sitting in, like, frigid cold weather for like three and a half, four hours.

Not a lot of fun. Yeah, it was so cold. But fortunately, I broke out the Canada Goose jacket and had no problems, man. The thing's money. Yeah, there you go. There you go. I tell you about it. If you live in Ohio, bro, you got to have a Canada Goose jacket.

These things are the freaking best. Canada Goose jacket. I might have to pick up one of those. I don't have one. So I feel like I need to get one of those. I mean, they're expensive. They're expensive. But it's worth the cost.

They'll keep you a word. It's worth it, bro. So also over the weekend, of course, Olexander Ousig defeated Tyson Fury. We talked about it real briefly on last week's show. Not going to get into a big recap or anything here. I thought Olexander Ousick definitely won the fight. Now he's 2-0 against Tyson Fury.

I guess kind of like a two-part question, Matt, because I know you're the boxing guru. A, how impressive is it that Olexander Ousick, who is not a heavyweight? Like, he's not really a heavyweight, has now gone out there and beaten Anthony Joshua twice. He has a winner for Daniel Dubois. He has two wins over Tyson Fury.

like how impressive is this dude to do what he's done? And also, where does he go from here? Like, Daniel Dubois came in the ring and said he wanted to rematch. I know he's fighting Joseph Parker coming up, but it's almost like, who does he fight now? Like, he's beating everybody. Yeah, man, when you look at the entirety of his career, there's a lot of people calling for that.

He's one of the greats now, you know, but I think it's more of his entire career because a heavyweight. I mean, he hasn't been a heavy weight that long, but, you know, between Wade did a cruiser weight and his amateur. gold medals and everything. He's definitely up there with one of the greatest ever. I think it's pretty much a lock that if Daniel Dubois wins, he's going to be getting a rematch.

Mainly because I think it's an easy sell because of the controversy in the first fight. I don't know if you remember the low blow. Because that's what everybody was talking about. You know, and Dubois and everybody keeps saying it wasn't a low blow and it gave him all this time to recover. And, you know, and then Ushik afterward came back can start beating him real bad.

So I think it's pretty much a lock for that. Yeah. But not because of like anybody thinks DuBah is going to beat him, but because there's just not really other guys out there, you know, that are going to, you know, and I think DeBahle's going to get past Parker. So I just don't think there's really guys out there, you know, there are big names that are going to get everybody hyped up for another fight.

When Usik won the first time we talked about the whole power, for pound debate. Does beating Fury a second time change anything as far as where you put Usik pound for pound? Well, I thought Fury looked a little bit better in the second fight, as a matter of fact. So, you know, he came more prepared and looked like he was just had a better strategy. Like, I talked about it last week. Like, I don't know if he could change his strategy enough to be able to beat Usik. And obviously, he didn't. So, yeah, man, Ussk's definitely a pound for pounder. I think there's no question. And he's almost like the dead. definition of pound for pound, right?

Like he's a smaller guy going up to beat bigger guys. Like, that's literally what the definition of pound for pound is. Yeah, that was kind of my thought as well. It's like, this guy is not a heavyweight. Like, he's just not. Like, when you see size-wise, he looked, he's dwarfed by Tyson-Berry. You know what I mean? And, like, he's just to go out there and do what he did and do it so impressively

and do it better than, again, like doing it better than he did the first time. The first time was a split decision. And if not for that ninth round where he probably should have gotten the finish, like Fury was winning up to that point and then he kind of takes over at that point and wins the fight ends up in a split decision I mean I definitely thought Usik won but it was much closer

and this one I was pretty confident like I was like yeah you know Usik definitely won this fight so to do what he's doing in not his own weight class and doing it as a heavy weight it's pretty ridiculous so incredible performance yeah unbelievable so Matt as I said we were kind of closing out 2024

and kind of looking ahead at 2025 in today's episode and before we say goodbye to 2024, I want to talk about our picks for Fighter of the Year. And I think there's a lot of candidates out there who could get this award from us saying, who are we picking to be the best fighter of the year? And there's no criteria, you know, it could just be a guy who has great wins, a girl has great wins, it can be title defenses, it can be meaningful wins. It can be one win.

It doesn't really matter. There's no criteria here for what we have for Fighter of the Year. So when you kind of encapsulate all of 2024, Matt, is there one fighter who stood out head and shoulders above for you as the best fighter of 2024 yeah i think we're both going to be on the same page on this one man this is a uh easy choice bro iliot to poria just coming at beating knocking out volkanowski and max holloway i mean just what a what a fucking year man i mean this guy just the sky's the limit for him um so i think that's a pretty easy choice if you ask me and i know there's a good argument that or there's an argument that a lot of people are

making for Alex Pereira. Definitely can't deny what he's done. But I'm with I'm with I'm with I'm with I'm with I'm with I'm with I'm with I'm Leia Teporea as well and it's not because you know and I listen I understand the argument if you would have said this you know a few months ago I would have said Alex Pereira's got it in the bag after he knocked out Kalilililhoundtree. But to do what to do what Ilya has done to beat Volcanovsky and Holloway in the same year and knock both of them out that like beating Volcanovsky was.

was impressive enough, but then the knockout Max Holloway, becoming the first person to ever knock out Max Holloway. Yeah. That's pretty ridiculous. And you're talking about one guy beating arguably two of the top three featherweights of all time. You know, Jose Aldo is not there anymore. I mean, that's ridiculous. And again, I'm not knocking what Alex Prairie did.

What Alex Prairie did was incredible. But, you know, Javall Hill, really good fighter, obviously, former champion, great win. Yuri Barashka is still a good win, but he already had. a win at Roshka. So it wasn't like he hadn't done it before. And actually, I think he did it better the second time. And then Kolo Rountry, really impressive win, but I don't know that KoloRoundtree was like eight or nine in the world. He kind of just kind of slid into that title shot. Great fight. But I don't think, like, if you're looking at career resumes, you couldn't stack up those three against Volcanovsky and Holloway. And to do what Ilya did to knock both of them out,

that's ridiculous. And I mean, since John Jones, I mean, how many guys have even fought guys that great back to back like that? I mean, it's such a rare thing to do. Alex Ferrer hasn't even had the opportunity to do that. So, you know, like you said, it's not a knock on him. It's not a knock on anybody else. But Ilya took the opportunity and not only, you know, went in and fought and took the opportunity, but he knocked him out. And, like, knock it out Max Holloway is enough just to, like, a knockout of the year, right?

that makes a knockout of the year candidate just being able to knock out Max Holloway so so impressive man and I mean with that said I mean Max Holloway

is definitely you know he's probably got knockout of the year right with Justin Gagea that's knockout of the century yeah that was probably you know that was the most badass knockout I think in fighting

sports history period yeah that's like I called it the greatest moment in UFC history. Like, you know, we were trying to encapsulate, you know, everything, like knock out, you know, the stage, the atmosphere, everything. That might be the single greatest moment ever. Like just him pointing to the ground, him throwing down, him landing that punch, gauge you going face first on the canvas, one second left on the clock.

It's just ridiculous. Dude, that's what every kid watching UFC dreams of doing, you know. You know, like, well, when we were kids, it wasn't really UFC around, but we would dream of, you know, catching the, the game winning Super Bowl touchdown, right? Or, you know, it's, you know, the bases are loaded. You're down by three and you're up to bat and the count is three and two and you hit the home run.

Like, that's literally what Max Holloway did. Just fascinating. Just amazing. Yeah. And like, I'll admit, like some highlights, you do get a little tired of watching. You're like, yeah, I've seen this like a dozen times. I've never gotten tired of watching that moment. You play that on repeat and I'll watch it over and over and over again.

because it's just so ridiculous because it's not just the knockout, it's how it happened. It's Max pointing to the ground saying, let's go, and him and Gage's just winging to each other and then boom, one shot, Gagetchigis first on the canvas.

It's the whole thing. Like, it's not just the knockout. It's everything that led to the knockout. So we could definitely, I don't think there's any question. We could put that down as the moment of the year, right? 100%. I mean, there's no debate.

That encapsulates the whole year right there. Everything else is kind of secondary. We got to give props to Max Holloway. Like you say, he pointed to the ground. Didn't have to do it. He was winning the fight. You know, the fight was in the bag. He could have just danced around and walked away.

And, you know, he took the risk against fucking Justin Gagey. You know, a big power knockout guy at a weight class up. You know, just like all the stars aligned for it to just be the moment of greatest moment in combat sports history that maybe ever. 100%. 100%. Now, I don't want to put a negative. spin on what Ilya did this year because everything he did was incredible.

But I'm sure you've seen it to some extent, Matt, that Ilya's talking about. Now he wants to go to lightweight, and maybe he's going to leave featherweight. And I know he said something more recently about like, I'm not going to vacate the title. But, you know, Islam McAchev has said, like, I don't want to just keep fighting featherways.

Like, he already has two wins over Volcanowski. He's like, if you're going to come up, earn it. And so now I'll maybe I'll fight Charles Olavera. Listen. And this is just me saying this, Matt. Ilya Teporea is a supremely talented guy, and I think he could eventually make the move to lightweight and make waves. You know, give him time to get the size, get his body right, get everything right.

You know, do what Desta Poree did. You know, it took Desta Poree a little while. He got kind of a lightweight. Now we almost forget Dessiporee was a featherweight. Like, we barely even mentioned that to his career anymore. I think Ilya has that ability to do it. But you just became champion and you had one title defense. Now, I'm not saying that he's ducking anyone.

I'm certainly not saying that. but like I get so tired of this whole two division thing I'm so over it like I'm so over the two division thing if you're going to go lightweight give up the belt and let you know Volkanowski or Diego Lopez or mozar ebloev let one of these guys fight for the title and move on but I'm so over it like dude you are literally you have a chance to become the best featherweight ever and I'm not saying you can't eventually go to lightway but why are we talking about it now you're one title defense in Why are we talking about it?

I feel that. I'd rather see a guy stick around and do his, you know, clear out the division, you know, going a long run, the division. Maybe his weight cuts getting hard. Maybe, you know, there's a lot of different factors that could be involved in that. Maybe, you know, he's growing, his frame is growing some, so it's just making it more difficult. Maybe he just wants to test himself. But I like the idea of him not just getting immediate title shot because he was the title

holder at a lower division and him coming up and fighting some guys. because lightweight's another beast. You know, obviously what he's done and featherweight has already been amazing. But you go up to lightweight, you know, you got Charles Olivera and Makachev. I mean, you know, Suruki. And I mean, this is a whole other beast,

particularly in the grappling sense. So, you know, he's got, this would be very interesting to see if you ask me. And I think like when Volcanowski did it at that point, Volcanowski had defended his belt like four times, whatever, you know what I mean? He had beaten Max a couple of times. He didn't really have a number one contender at that point. So he's like, okay, we'll let you go up and fight, you know, Islam didn't work out. It was a great fight. First one was. Great fight didn't work out.

He ends up getting the rematch just because it's short notice. He wasn't supposed to get the rematch. And then, of course, he got knocked out. And that kind of ended the story for him at lightweight. But Ilya, to me, it's like when Volcanovsky did it at the time, he had kind of clear out the division. They're still guys. Diego Lopez has looked like a monster lately. Mosa R. Evluev has looked like a monster lately. And listen, even though I think that, you know, I'm not a huge fan of the

immediate rematches or just giving a guy a rematch, if you're going to give it to one guy, Volcanovsky's probably the guy who deserves it, you know, like kind of like you talked about with Israel, like when he lost to Strickland, you said, give him whatever he wants, dude, he's earned it. And he did. He came back, got the title shot. It didn't work out for him, but he got it.

And I was fine with that. I'm fine with Volcanozki's getting the title shot again, because, again, He was a four or five-time defending champion, whatever it was. But you got challenges, you know. It's not like you've cleared out. It's not like you've cleared out the division, especially with guys like Moussar and Diego Lopez right there. So if you want to leave the division, fine.

But I'm with you. Like, if you're going to do it, dude, you got to earn your way. Like, there's a line of guys lightweight who want that title shot. You know what I mean? Like you got Moikano fighting Daryush coming up. Obviously, you still got Justin Gagey out there. Max Holloway is now going to be at lightweight. Dusta Porier's still out there.

I know Dustin's kind of the tail into his career. But my point is, is like, you haven't earned, you haven't quite earned the right to just jump into title shots at lightweight. And again, to his credit, he said he'd fight Charles Oliver, and I think that would be a very fun fight.

But, dude, stay at featherweight. Unless the cut is so bad that you just can't do it anymore, and that I understand. Otherwise, dude, you got a chance to potentially become the greatest featherweight. You've already taken out two of the greatest featherweights ever. You get three or four title defenses.

We're going to start talking about you jumping Aldo was the greatest featherweight of all time. Yeah, but look, if he does, I mean, I get where he's coming from, too. Look, he goes up and goes on a title run of 55. If he ends up beating Islam, I mean, he's, you know, I don't know. They're going to start talking about him being the greatest fighter in UFC, period, right? Pound for pound number one, for sure. And they're going to start putting him up there, like, how close is he to John Jones?

What does he got to do to catch John Jones now, right? Because that would be a damn impressive run. Whether that happens or not, you know, it was obviously like, to be seen. But so I get him one to chase the big dreams and, you know, that's the, I think once you kind of, once you get a title, you kind of feel like, you know, you're on top of the world. And we always want to be chasing the next big thing, right? That's just human nature of a successful achiever, achievers, successful people. So he wants the next big challenge. And I love that about him. And I love that about fighters. So I get what they're, where they come from.

like I don't want to, you know, the challenges here. I mean, I could see from Iliot to pour his eyes where he's going to say Diego Lopez is not the challenge of Max Holloway and Alexander Volcanowski, right? So he needs something to fire him up. So I get that. But I'm also on your side too, though. Stay in your division, do your thing. You know, let's see a five, six fight, a defense run here.

And then let's move up. But I, so I get both sides. of the argument there. I know the UFC will never do it, but I've suggested that if champions want to go up and they want to hold on to their title, they got to do it after like five title defenses, or some number, you know what I mean?

Like some version of that. Or if Ilya wants to give up the belt, then that's the whole other story. He wants to vacate the belt, and I'm just going to move to lightweight, that's a different story. But if you want to go up as champion, you want the chance to become champ, champ, champ,

double champ, whatever version of that you want to say. If you want to do that, then you need to give up to you either. need to give up the belt or to me need to defend it a few times. I don't know what the number is. Maybe it's three, maybe it's five. It'd be easy if they just, if they had a concrete number, is like how long before you have to defend the belt and say every six months

or it gets vacated, right? Because then, you know, someone move up to try to get another belt. They don't necessarily vacate it, but you better come back and fight right away if you want to keep your lower belt. Yeah, 100%. But like I said, I mean, it's a good problem really. It's boring to have, right? Like, he's got that option.

now and I don't think he's going to do it. I think he's got ideas and I think he'll do it eventually. But for now, I think he's going to look at Diego. I think he's going to look at the Volcanovsky rematch. I think he's going to look at Mosar and I think that's what's going to keep him busy. It's fun to talk about, but I don't think he's going to do it yet. Do I think he'll do it eventually? Sure.

And do I think that Ilya could do well? Wait, absolutely. But you're already kind of defining yourself as one of the best featherweights of all time. and why not just continue to do that for a little while longer? And then, you know, the lightweight title's not going anywhere. You got time. Yeah, I get what you say. I get where you're coming from.

I'll tell you what, a fight with him and Charles Olivera. That does excite me, though. That could be a real fun fight. Because if Teporia lands won, I don't know if Charles has the chin to take one of his punches. But, you know, Charles is just a fun guy to watch all around. The way he looked against Chandler, I mean, he's looked phenomenal. So I just, I always love watching Charles Alvare fight. He's probably my favorite guy to watch.

Yeah, he's incredible. I mean, that performance against Chandler, you know, whatever it was a few weeks ago, unbelievable. And like I said, he's right there. And like I said, that's the other thing. Again, like, talking about title shots, like, I want guys to earn it. And I think I'll think I'llie is incredible. But if you're going to go to lightweight, dude, you better be ready. And to his credit, and he did say, I'll fight Charles Oliver.

Okay, that's cool. You know, you're not calling for an immediate title shot. I think that's cool. But I also think, like, there's guys in line. You know what I mean? Like, you don't want to just jump over guys who have been, you know, you know, I think in Nato Mokano's on like a four-or-five-fight win streak to be beats Benil Daryush.

Like, I'm not saying he needs to get a title shot next. Yeah, I'm not saying you need to give a title shot, but he should be in that contenders race. Like maybe he gets the fight with Oliva because arguably he would deserve it more. You know what I mean? Like he's on a run. Yeah, you know, and there's other guys out there as well. So I'm just saying like I'm not opposed to it.

I'm just saying do it the right way. You know, do it the right way. Don't do it just because, you know, I think we all had that. I know we talked about before, like the whole Connor thing. I think Connor totally changed it when he actually got to go up and do it and become champ, champ, chap, and now everyone wants to do it. It's like the popular thing to do it. And now everyone wants to do it. And it's just like, you know what?

You know what's cool? Defending your title five or six times because nobody does that. Yeah. Well, the downside, like you said, keeps the division on hold, you know, for whatever title is, you know, when this case would be the featherweight title puts that on hold. And that just, that sucks for all the guys, you know, waiting in line for that. And so that's why I was saying, you know, if they do something, they should do something where if you don't come back within a certain amount of time, then it's vacated. Somebody else gets that title. Yeah, 100%.

So, Matt, as we, as we said, we're kind of closing out 2024 and starting to look ahead at 2025. We've already got a lot of big fights made in 2025. I mentioned, of course, Islam Akach have taken on Armistarukian. We got Marab de Wailashvili taken on Umar and Magamatov on that very first pay-per-view. And I think since we spoke or maybe we didn't speak about it last week, they announced February. Pover's Pay-Peree, which is going to be Drichas Diplice against Sean Strickland, too, and also Tatiana Suarez taken on Zhang Wei Li at Strawweight. So we've already got a pretty good idea of a couple of the big fights coming in, in 2025.

Obviously, I think we're going to hear more about other title defenses coming up in the near future. You got, of course, you got Alex Pereira, like, you know, now he's teasing, like, is it going to be Magna Mankalaya? I'm sure maybe you saw him the weekend. He's like, it's not Ankeliab, and Ankelias fire back at him. I don't know what's going on there. of course you got middleweight, you got welterweight,

we kind of know it's going to be Balal Mohammed and Shabat. We just don't know when it's going to be that fight. We know what's going on at lightweight. We don't quite know what's going on at featherweight, but I think it's going to end up defending the title. Maybe it's Volkanowski, maybe it's Lopez, maybe it's Mosar, but I think he's going to defend the title.

Bantuate, we already mentioned. Flyweight, Pantosia doesn't really have an opponent, but I think it's going to be Kikara, France, seems to be leaning in that direction. And then on the women's side, I mean, I think we all know it's going to be Kayla Harrison and Juliana Pena next year. We're going to see

Valentina Shepchenko against Mendoviore, which I think is pretty much a done deal. And then Jang Wiley against Tajiana Suarez. So we kind of have a pretty good lay of the land as far as like everybody. I didn't mention Tom Aspinall. I want to leave Tom Aspinall out for right now in John Jones. We'll get to that subject a little bit. But out of all

these title fights that are either made or potentially being made, do you have a favorite of that bunch? Of all the ones I just mentioned, the couple that are already booked, the four that are already booked for really next year, and then the ones we kind of see coming as far as like we know it's going to be Belial in Shabkat, we know it's going to be

Mano and Valentina. We kind of have an idea of what the title fights are going to be. Is there one that stands out for you, Matt, do you're most excited about? Well, it's not booked, but the one that I would be most excited about I think would be prayer and Ankelaev. I really want to see that fight. I think Ankaulayev has a better shot at that fight

than people give him credit for. And, you know, I wouldn't put it past Ankeliive to, he's It has good enough striking that he could work into his wrestling, you know, and test Alex on the ground, which no one seems to want to do for whatever odd reason. But Anka Liva, I think, is a guy that could do that and can hang on the feet at minimum. You know, might even be able to give him a good run on the feet. But that, to me, is the most interesting one.

What about you? So for me, there's a lot of them that I'm excited about. I mean, I'm really intrigued. I think after watching what Shabkat had. with Ian Gary. Actually, I'm really intrigued by him in Palau. I think that's going to be a really interesting fight. But weirdly, I think the one I'm most excited about,

just because, again, you said this on the show, and I agree with you, all the gimmicks stuff, all the tournaments and this and that, we want drama. We like drama. That's just what sells. I'm really looking forward to the buildup between Kayla Harrison and Giuliana Pena.

I'm not saying that's going to be the best fight in the year. I'm just saying, like, the bad blood between those two is going to be pretty electric, and I don't think we've seen anything like that in the women's division since Ronda was around because Giuliana does not like Kayla. Kayla does not like Juliana, and Kayla is a great trash talker.

I think that's a really interesting. Now, will the fight be amazing? I can't tell you that. I don't know if the fight's going to be amazing. But the buildup is going to be amazing. Well, that was part of why I didn't really mention that house because I don't think that fight's going to be amazing. You don't think.

I think Kayla's going to put a whoopin on. not like easy. I think it's just going to be a like an easy night in the office for Kayla. Yeah, I don't disagree, but I just, I think the buildup's going to be fun. You know what I mean? Like it'll be a good bit of trash talk until. I guess for me, like the good trash talk and buildup isn't quite as exciting when it's like one person is probably about to get wrecked by other.

It's like, why are you talking shit? Like you're about to get destroyed. Like you should know, like we know. Like you're the one not knowing here. Yeah, yeah. But in terms of matchup-wise, I think honestly the one I'm most excited about, because you talk about Ancolaev and Alex, I think the one I'm most intrigued by is going to be Marab and Umar because Marab is a monster. Like Marab is really, really good. He doesn't get nearly enough credit for how good he is.

But Umar is a beast. And the only thing knocking Umar is he just doesn't have the long list of experience against top guys. He has the one big fight and big win over Corey Sandigan, which is absolutely impressive. Corey Sandigan is a monster. But we haven't seen him do it for 11 straight fights. We haven't seen him do it against four or five, top 10 guys. Marab has. So we know what Marab is about.

We know how good Marab is and how tough Marab is. But a lot of people, myself included, have kind of anointed Marab or, excuse me, Omar, is like the next big thing. He's going to be the next guy after Islam and, you know, all the other guys. So that one is super intriguing to me because it's two high-level grapplers in a five-round title fight. I'm super intrigued by that one. Yeah, that's a great call. Yeah. And the one kind of maybe flying under the radar a little bit is Tatiana Suarez coming back because I think she's probably the most talented women's fighter out there.

Maybe Kayla might be the only other one, but Kayla's just so physical too. it's not even necessarily just skill talent, but she's just so physical and overpowering. But I think Tatiana skill-wise is probably the best one. And I'm actually pretty excited to see how she does. Now I think she's healthy and coming back prior to a title run, I think she'll, I'm actually pretty excited about that one. Yeah, that's a really intriguing one.

I've been on the Tatiana Suarez train for a while. Now, the only thing that hurt her has just been injuries. You know, she's kind of that, kind of had that Kane Velasquez bug where it's like we've always seen, We always seen her as like the, the boogeyman of that division, but unfortunately she just can't stay healthy. Because when she's healthy, man, she just rolls through people. I don't know that anyone is going to roll through Zhang Wei.

I know Rose has a knockout over her. But, you know, Janeway Lee is a monster. And so that's a really intriguing fight. Big, strong, powerful fighter in Zhang Wei, and you got a big, strong, powerful wrestler and Tatiana Suarez. That's a really intriguing fight. That's right. I agree.

I think that's right there with like, Umar Morav as far as like a chess match that I just can't wait to see how it plays out. Yeah, yeah. And then of course the one we didn't mention, Aspinall and Jones, if it happens. So let's start there. We're going to talk about some of our bold predictions or bold questions, biggest questions we have coming into 2025. So we're going to kind of go down a list of a few that I had lined up for us here, Matt. So let's just start there because I left Tom Aspinall off the list for a reason.

and I left John Jones off the list for a reason because, you know, Dana White, generally speaking, never says the big words like guarantee. You know, I'm going to try to make it happen, we'll make it happen, but guarantee. He guaranteed we're going to see John Jones and Tom Aspenall in 2025. So, Matt, I'll ask you, do we see John Jones defend the title or unify the title or however you want to sell it? Do we see John Jones fight Tom Aspinall in 2025? You know, Dana's a promoter, and you know, you can't always listen to everything that he says. You can't, you got to take it with a grain of salt. But like you said, Dana's also not one to make guarantees.

He's very careful with his words. When Dana comes out and says he guarantees he'll make this fight happen, I got to trust him on that. I got to believe him. I think everybody wants it done. I think all parties involved when it done. Obviously, John wants the money. John does look great against Steep A and Cyril Gone. So I'm sure that he's still confident in himself to be able to go out and perform.

Obviously, Tom Aspinall wants it done. That's who wants it more than anybody here. I'm going to take his word on this one. It's going to happen. Yeah, I'm going to agree. although I will say I have a little less confidence, but I will agree that I think it will happen for a couple of reasons. One, it's pretty clear now the UFC is not interested in making John against

prayer. I think we've kind of seen that they're just not really interested in doing that fight, even though you and I have said it arguably is the bigger fight, but I don't think they're into it. I just don't think they're into it. And I don't think a lot of people are into it because they kind of see how that one would probably play out. As good as Alex has been, John would kind of be an overwhelming favorite in that fight, right?

Like, he would definitely be an overwhelming favorite to win that one. Maybe for the first time since, I guess, Daniel Cormier, do we actually have a doubt about John winning, you know, like, you know, John, you know, you consider and say, oh, well, this guy does this or this guy does that, but ultimately, you know, John is John, and you're kind of like, John's probably going to win. That may not be the case against Tom Aspinall. And also, we're going to talk about, I know everyone loves when we talk about Connor on this show, but we are going to talk about Connor as far as him coming back.

But I think the UFC has moved beyond any one guy or one girl, you know, building the promotion. Like, they've been without Connor for three years and they've had their most successful financial years ever without him around. So they don't need, like, we need Connor to sell a fight. But as far as big-time fights go, all the ones we just mentioned are all great fights. But what's the one that's going to sell a fight? a shit ton of pay-per-views. And I think that's Jones Aspinall. And I'm not knocking any of the other fights that are out there.

I'm just saying, like, in terms of star power, in terms of potential, to sell a ton of pay-per-views, what's the one that could do it? And I think it's John Jones-Tom Aspinall. And I think that's why the UFC will be willing to back up the brink truck to get John to take the fight, whatever he's going to get paid $20 million, whatever it is. And then he'll do it. And I think, you know, it's just too big not to happen. Unless John retires, which, you know, there's always a possibility.

that happens. I just think that he knows this is what they want. And we talked about it. Like, John's not stupid. John, I kind of joked and I said my conspiracy theory is that John was playing a little bit of like negotiating power in the press when he's saying like, I have no interest, I want to fight Pereira.

You got to make it worth my wild to fight Aspinall. That's just John saying, hey, you better add a couple of zeros that paycheck. But I think it will happen because, you know, John, John has a legacy and that's a guy that's a legitimate threat. Now, would I pick Tom Aspenall to be John Jones?

I don't know about that, but it's a lot closer than I would pick Alex Pereira to beat John Jones or any other heavyweight. Yeah, that's exactly. A lot of it comes down to, like you said, the line on Jones versus Prayer is going to be ginormous, right? And there's a certain amount of people, a lot of hardcore people,

will not be as interested in that fight as they will be in Tom Aspinall. And look, this is a huge opportunity for Tom Aspinall. I think if he goes and wins that fight, I mean, he becomes a gigantic star in the UK, too, right? Which he's already a big star over there and make him a big star over here. And he'd be probably, I don't know, he'd be as big as a Pereira star, I think. You know, like he would be that amount of stardom because he's a heavy weight. He just beat John Jones.

I think there's a lot of upsides, you know, for the UFC, if somehow Tom Aspinall is able to pull it out. And certainly the line's going to be a lot closer. Certainly there's going to be people picking Aspinall, you know, versus if it's Pereira, like we all love Alex Pereira. And I don't doubt that he could go out there and do it, but we're not going to be picking them. Right. There's just not going to be people picking them to win. Anybody in the know, right? at least with Aspenall, there's going to be some back and forth, right?

And also the buildup, like I think it would be a great, a great media shows, conferences, right? Like, I think Tom is a great talker. John, obviously, you know, he's probably the most vicious trash talker in history. I mean, you know, he's not like a Connor type or anything where he's loud or obnoxious or anything. But the shit that he says is like, It fucking cuts deep, man. He just, he knows how to get straight to a motherfucker's soul. Yeah, and also, I mean, talking about beating John Jones.

I mean, if he's able to do it, if Tom Asplano actually would beat John Jones, I mean, the star power is just almost immeasurable. I mean, you know, the only guy he probably couldn't top is Connor at that point. You know what I mean? Because Connor is Connor. But, I mean, you beat John Jones. You meet the greatest of all time. You're on another platform. You're on another atmosphere as far as where you could go.

And that's the thing is with. Alex is already a very big star, right? I don't think it does them so much good to make him a bigger star, which, again, I don't think we wouldn't pick him to win, but if you think about that, like now they could, if, let's just assume John goes in and shits the betting, either guy, right? Alex or Tom, if you're the UFC, you'd rather have two big stars now, Tom Aspinall and Alex Pereira versus one.

just Alex Pereira being, you know, ginormous. Yeah, and either way, I mean, even if John wins, like, John still is a tell in his career. So, you know, we know your way. Like, we need to talk about, you know, so like. That's going to be the argument if he loses either way, right? Yeah. I mean, that's what I'll be saying is, like, yeah, 10 years ago wouldn't happen, right?

Yeah. And, I mean, I think there's definitely an argument. I mean, he's, you know, 37 now. He's older, you know what I mean? So, I mean, there's no doubt about that. But also, like I said, I mean, I've learned not. to count John Jones out. So it would be massive.

And I do think they're going to move heaven and earth to make that one happen. With the new TV deal coming up this year, you know, Connor, and we'll get to him in the second. Connor not around right now. You know, and there's a lot of other star power out there. I think I think I'm a great chance to become a superstar. I think, you know, under the right circumstances, you get a very, I mean, I think Islam is already very marketable. I don't know how many pay-per-views he sells, but he's still a marketable guy.

You know, you got, you know, I mean, again, but like I said, when you look at potential of star power, you can't predict it. I mean, we all know this. Like, if they could just predict who's going to be a star, the UFC would just, you know, name a guy and he'd be the star. That just doesn't work that way. Sure.

What people are attracted to, you can't ever totally tell what they're going to be attracted to. But with that said, the heavyweight star is different than any other star. There's anomalies. There's Floyd. There's Connor. but a heavyweight star is just a different level. Yeah, so that's the fight, and I think they know it,

and I think they're going to pay to make it happen. And, yeah, I mean, it's just, I mean, if you're going to talk about the most anticipated fight of 2025, how is it not that one? Because there's just so many unknowns, so much riding on that one. You know, we all think Tom is incredible. I think Tom's incredible, but, you know, and I have a huge amount of respect for guys like Curtis Blades,

Sergei Pavlovich, all the other guys he's beaten, but they're not John Jones. And that's a whole other animal. You go out there and fight John Jones. If you win, your career is changed forever. And if you lose, hey, you lost the greatest ever. Like, you went in there and you took a shot at the greatest ever and came up short. It's just a tremendous fight. And I think it's the one that we all want to see.

And I think Dana knows it. Like, Dana's recognizing it. Like, when I mention all those fights I mentioned in title fights this year or coming into next year, the one that everyone like there's not one person who doesn't want to see that fight you know what I mean like you might get the one outlier who's like I want to see Alex but the 99% of people are like

I want Jones Aspital and I think Dana recognizes that and to Dana's credit you know when he sees something that people want he will try to make I mean he did try to get Fador in the UOC once upon the time it didn't work but he tried so I think I think he's going to move heaven and earth to make that one happen yes I thousand percent agree

and if that happens, hopefully, I don't know, I guess, before the TV deal or after, right? I think before is probably a better thing, right? Or maybe they work it into the TV deal somehow. Maybe that's how they get a little extra bag. You know, there's a lot of different things at play here. But like I said, look, when Dana puts it like that, I got to take his word for it, man. Like he's not one to be that confident about something and put it out there like that. So I got to take his word for it.

And hopefully it happens. So I'm looking forward to it. I want to see it. Absolutely. Now, our next subject, Matt, we talk about this way too much. And I already know the answer. But we can't not talk about it because the further and further we get removed from the time when he last fought, we kind of get less and less confident that he's ever going to fight again.

Of course, I'm talking about Connor McGregor because Connor, like it or not, he is still the biggest star in our sport. When Connor does something, it matters. He tweets, people pay attention. He goes on some weird rant on a Twitter video or a Twitter audio, people pay attention. He posts on Instagram, people pay attention. He posted he's working on a boxing match with Logan Paul and India of all places out of nowhere. People pay attention. So Matt, here's the question. Now, I'm opening it wide. I'm not just saying UFC because this Logan Paul thing kind of came out of nowhere. And for my understanding, there is a little bit where there's smoke, there's fire.

Now, how real it is? I don't know. How much the UFC would get behind it? I don't know. But I do know there's like, there is something, it's not just a crazy Connor tweet. Now, will it happen? So my question is, 2025, do we see Connor McGregor fight anybody? Do we see him fight Logan Paul?

Do we see him come back to the UFC? see, does Connor McGregor actually step foot in a ring or a cage to do battle with someone? I'll say this, I'm saying this kind of jokingly, but I'm not, in a sanctioned fight. Like, he doesn't come in and just attack somebody because who knows, that could happen. But does Connor McGregor actually compete in a real fight in 2025? That's a good question. Well, because you made it so wide that now it makes it a hard answer, a hard question to answer because you made it broad does he fight at all he probably gets in a street fight i'll call

that one um does he fight logan paul that's a good question i don't know i'm going to say and i don't know does he fight the ufc i think that's a clear no um does he fight outside the ufc i think it's always possible for him to fight outside the ufc if the ufc allows it like you said i don't know if ufc's going to get behind it i don't know if the ufs i just don't know how those deals are going to play out. But does he fight in the UFC? No. So I'm going to leave it at that. And because you made it so broad, you made it a complicated question.

And so I can't give a clear answer on, you know, whether he fights, period. Yeah, who knows. But narrowing it down to the UFC, you don't think we're going to fight the UFC now. No, no, he won't be in the UFC. I don't think he'll fight him ever again. It's so weird because, like, you almost, and maybe I'm playing too much into it. Maybe I'm just like, you know, looking for like clues. But it seems like every time Dana addresses Connor, the date gets later.

And it seems like the confidence in his voice that Connor is going to fight again seems to get less and less. So we talked about this after the whole situation with the lawsuit in Ireland. And Dana didn't want to comment on it. Whatever. I'm not going to get into that. But like he's like, yeah. Because he went from Connor will be back in 2025 to if Connor comes back. It'll be 2025.

and it's just like Dana's lack of confidence gives me a lack of confidence. Like when Dana has a promoter, of course he wants to promote Connor McGregor coming back. But when he's saying things like if he fights, it'll be 2025, that's like a whole other handle with me where I'm just like, well, now even Dana has doubts. And when Dana has doubts, I have even more doubts. And I know you said, listen, I don't want to rehash past episodes, but you've said for a while now you thought Connor was done altogether. But I think 20, here's, maybe this is the better question. Is 2025 the last glimmer of hope? Meaning if he doesn't come back next year, is that it?

Like, because at some point we have to move on, right? Like, we can't just continue to push and push, he's going to fight, he's going to do this. We thought it was going to be 2024. He actually did book a fight. And then it didn't happen. And it never got rebooked. Is that, like, is next year the limit? Like, do we reach our limit on like caring whether or not Connor McGregor fights?

again? Well, I'd like to see him fight again. I'd like to see him get his life together, get back in the, the gym and do his thing. But, I mean, I'm, how long ago did I originally say he's not fighting again? I mean, it was, I think it was at latest early 2024, you know, so, you know, I haven't had confidence he's going to fight in the UFC for a long time. But I think it's always possible for him to fight outside the UFC if he could work out

whatever deal with the UFC, because I know he's still under contract. I think that's always the possibility. You know, there's so much money to be made doing a Logan Paul fight. Like, of course he would do that. And it's not, he doesn't have to come back and fight a fucking Islam or something. You know, like, or, you know, Dustin Porier or Diaz or anything. He's just going to, you know, boxing a guy who's not a pro boxer. Yeah.

I mean, I have doubts that the UFC would be like, yeah, come back and fight Logan Paul of all people and not fighting the UFC. like why would they want that? You know what I mean? Like why would they allow that to happen? Because even they get a percentage, it's not the same as if he fights in the UFC. And I, listen, I'm over arguing about the whole influencer boxing thing. I've gotten done with it.

Like Jake Paul wants to fight whoever, I don't care. Do your thing. Whatever, I don't care. But like if Connor's going to fight, I don't want to see him box Logan. Paul. Like, what, like, what, huh? Like, what are we doing here? Like, I'm not, as you said, I don't need him to come back and fight Islam.

I think that would be a terrible fight for him. But fight Chandler, that's the fight you wanted. That's the fight you booked. Like, I still have interest in Connor McGregor coming back and fighting Michael Chandler. I have next to no interest in boxing. I'm saying like comparatively. Like, I actually have interest in Connor fighting in the UFC. I have no interest in Connor boxing.

Like, in Logan Paul, who is like, you know, six foot two or whatever and going to outweigh Connor by like 50 pounds. And, I mean, like, him boxing Floyd was kind of, it was dumb, but it was like, whatever, it was kind of fun at the moment. But, like, if Connor's going to fight, he's not Floyd. He didn't retire 50 and O and do everything he ever wanted to do in the sport. And he's just kind of fucking around and just making a couple million here, a couple million there. Connor, if Connor fights, Connor needs to the UFC. I have pretty much no, unless he does bare knuckle, I would actually have interest in bare knuckle.

Because it's so wild The whole interest of him fighting Logan Paul It has nothing to do about the fight It's the buildup to the fight that's fine The fight itself we already know It's going to be stupid But the buildup

That's that's the story You know It's not the fight So And if he comes back and fights in the UFC It's not really about the buildup You know I mean there will be built up

And all that You have comes back and fights Chandler Or I don't know, you know, just somebody. Yeah, there will be built up. But it's the fight that we care about then. So to be honest, at this point in Conner's career, I think I would be more interested

in seeing him, you know, seeing a cool buildup to a fucking Logan Paul thing. So you're actually more interested than that like Michael Chandler? Just the situation Conner's in, the way he lives now and, you know, the life that he is. Like, yeah, it's more interesting, I think. Is Connor gonna, is there a chance, Connor, it's weird to say this, because everything Connor's done. He was a two division champion. He was arguably, you know, number, whatever, one or two, three, whatever, pound for

pound. Biggest star, arguably in the history of the sport. But will Connor go down potentially is still the greatest what if ever? Like, is there still, or, like, has he done enough to where we don't have to ask that question anymore? Greatest what if ever? That's hard to say, because, I don't know. There's so many big ones all the time.

Yeah, I wouldn't say so because, I mean, he was still, you know, in his prime, so to speak, like when he lost an AD as the first time, you know, and he was, I would, I don't want to take anything away from his career, you know, but, you know, he only won a couple fights that were really big fights, you know? And again, it's not knocking anything. He won bigger fights than I ever did. So, you know, so all the, you know, keyboard words out there, everyone talks shit about me saying that. It's not a personal thing or anything.

It's just, you know, to me it wasn't a gigantic what if. I mean, I think he did a great job of peeking out, maximizing, I should say. He did a great job of maximizing his star power, maximizing his ability to make money in the UFC and his ability to create a star out of himself. and I don't think he ever, I don't think he ever had the skill to be, you know, one of the greatest ever. I mean,

I think he was great, you know, he's a great, but one of the greatest ever, you know, I think he was in great shape and everything was aligned in his life for him to fight great against Khabib, and Khabib smashed him.

So, you know, he wasn't, I don't think he was ever beating guys like that if he trained seriously for, many, many years. So you're doing like the stockups, like you're putting faith in something. You'd have more faith in Conner fighting Logan Paul than actually come back to the U.S.

Like that's rare to say. Yes. Yes. Yes. I would say that for sure. Yeah. I don't think you're wrong. I mean, when he threw that out there, I don't know why, but it wouldn't shock me.

Like it wouldn't shock me. That's the way it happened, you know? Because ultimately what risk is there? Like what, you know what I mean? Like he loses to Logan Paul. Logan Paul's much bigger. Conner's, you know, much smaller guy. it's boxing, it's not MMA, and he doesn't risk the leg, he's not going to get leg kicked,

he's not going to get taken down. Yeah, you're probably like, if I had to put faith in it and say which one do I think is more likely to happen? The local ball boxing match is probably more likely to happen. Yeah, and realistically, you know, the UFC will get their cut out of it and they'll be happy, so it kind of works for everyone. Yeah. Now, I don't want to close out 2025 predictions with a doom and gloom, but I got to bring it up,

Matt, before we get out of here, because this is one subject that has come up a lot. And it is the situation still brewing over in PFL with Bellator. It looks like Bellator is, I mean, all but gone. I don't know really what that brand is doing anymore. But my question is, and again, I don't want to be doom and gloom on this, but we've seen a lot of promotions come and go. Like I know, I'm sure you saw this news about GFL, this new team league format that I have less than zero faith ever putting on one event,

much less becoming like a major player in the sport. Sorry, I just don't see it happening. Where, in your opinion, like, where is PFL at the end of 2025? Like, are they still a viable player? Are they gone? Like, where do we see them at at the end of the year? Because this has been such a weird time for them because, like, everyone was like, oh, you bought Bellator.

Now you've got like this incredible roster of fighters. and you're going to actually, you're never going to compete with the UFC, but you're going to be more competitive with the, you know, you're going to have a better, you know, didn't happen. Like, their roster, they let guys go, guys aren't fighting. Now you've got guys saying, I want to be released. I don't want to be here anymore. It's getting kind of ugly.

You know that, like, guys aren't getting booked. That's, we can verify that without, you know, even talking to anybody. I don't know. What do you think? Like, where, where, does PFL still exist at the end of 2025? To be honest, I'm not sure how they've existed this far. So if they keep doing whatever they're doing, maybe they keep existing. I don't really know how it's operating currently.

And they said they bought Bellator and we all thought, okay, well, you know, maybe they could now be a clear number two. You know, because they were kind of claiming they were number two before, like close to UFC or some shit. And it was like, not really. It's basically UFC and then everybody else. You're all everybody else. And yeah, when they bought Bellator, we thought, okay, well, maybe something good will happen. in here and guys will have other options and, you know, some good things will come of it. So again, I don't know how they've survived this far.

So how do they get through 2025? I guess keep doing what the fuck you're doing and getting money from people somehow to, you know, keep Ponzi scheming people. I don't really know. I don't, not sure how it's working. But things like the Global Fight League, I mean, that's cool. And I think it's a, I love all these ideas. There's so many of these fight promotions.

that we've seen it many times where they're really trying to look out for the fighters, right? That's kind of one of the things that they're based in the promotion on, right? And I think that's kind of, the GFFLs kind of sell right now, right? You know, we're doing this for the fighters. We're doing this for the fighters, et cetera, et cetera. There's only been one truly successful fight promotion in history, the UFC, right?

They did not build it by helping fighters. I think that's where they're all kind of fucking up. even though and I say that as a former fighter like I want to see everybody get paid and do well but the UFC built their business paying like low-balling fighters and still almost went out of business right and there's still a lot of arguments of how well they take care of their fighters even today so I find it hard to believe that you know making it a fighter-based help the fighter promotion is really the way to build a promotion. And I hate saying that because, you know, I love the,

I love that they care about the fighters. I love the thought process behind it. But is that going to build a promotion? I have a hard time believe in it. I mean, you got to look at things practically, right? Like, even if you have a massive investor who's going to pay for everything for the first year or two, that money will eventually dry up.

And I've said it a million times on this show, Matt. there is one profitable mixed martial arts company in history. It's the UFC. Every other company was just fighting against that red line. Like they were losing money. How much money were they losing? Like that's what happened to Bellator. Bellator was not adding to Paramount's bottom line and Paramount said,

we've got to cut our losses here. That's why PFL got Bellator for nothing. They got it with like a stock option, basically, because they were just taking on Bellator's debt because Belator wasn't producing profit. You look throughout history, Strikeforce, they sold. Pride, they sold. You know, it just, I mean, there's enough history now to say that, like, it is not easy to compete in this business and actually make money doing it. I don't know how profitable or not profitable they are right now, but I think, you know, I've said this on the show before.

I think the one that has the best option to be profitable is probably BKFC because they are different. They're not just presenting enough. another UFC type product. They have a couple of stars, and they kind of keep their, they kind of keep their expectations lower, like they're not going out there trying to sign, you know, every free agent. They're signing guys like Mike Perry, who makes sense to come to BKFC. A guy like Sabahumasi, who fought this last week had a fun, exciting knockout guy

who can come in there and make waves from them that way. They're selling out shows. They're selling tickets. They got a TV deal. They're doing things kind of slowly but surely, but a lot of. these organizations, they want to jump in the deep end on day one and say, we're going to compete with everybody. I've seen it happen negatively too many times to believe it. So I don't want to just cast a damn net over GFL and say, you're destined to fail. But there's no organization that has ever survived for more than a few years,

except the UFC. And as you said, like it or not, their business model was keeping costs low, which means paying fighters less and slow down. Do they pay more than any other promotion now? Sure, because they got all the money in the world. There are guys making $10 or $20 million to fight. That does happen, right? Like, Connor made money. John's probably making that kind of money.

There are certain guys who are going to make multi-milliones now. But are they still paying what they should be paying? No. Like, they're making record revenue. They can be paying double what they're paying right now. But they're doing it because they know long term, that's the way they've been successful. And while I appreciate GFL coming in and saying,

we're going to give everyone 50% revenue, that sounds great. But 50% of nothing is still nothing. And if you're not making money, like they're saying, we're going to give you 50% of the pay-per-view. You sell a thousand pay-per-views. That's not really that much.

No, and the pay-per-view model was so hard, too. Like to sell pay-per-views, to convince hard-working American people, to drop, you know, 50, 60 bucks on a paper view on a Saturday night. I mean, I just think it's a tough sell, man. Like, you got to have a big star power to do that. Yeah. And where it comes to PFL, like, I want PFL.

But, by the way, when I say this, when I ask this question, it's not because I don't want PFL to succeed. I do want them to succeed because the more options for fighters, the better. Like, I want. Yeah, for sure. I want Francis and Gano to be able to stand up for himself and say, I'm not going to take what you're offering me. I'm going to go somewhere else.

And PFL said, hey, we're over here. We're going to give you a $10 million and, you know, bonuses and, you know, whatever you want. We're going to do it. Now, is that ultimately a good business decision on PFL's then? I don't know because we talked about, like, the first pay-per-view with him didn't seem to do very well. Inganu wasn't a huge star to begin with. Like, he was a decent draw, but he's not like a Connor. You know what I mean?

Like, I think BKFC getting Connor to buy into them has done more for them than PFL signing in Ghana. They haven't had to pay Connor anything, and Connor's promoting the shit out of them. You know what I mean? He's showing up. He's commenting. He's posting videos like that. That is a worthwhile partnership.

But at the same time, even though I know PFL's probably losing money on it, I'm glad they exist. So Francis could say, hey, I'm going to stand up for myself. I'm going to take this other offer. I'm going to leave the UFC. And if PFL goes away, that's gone. Like, where do you go from there? Like, unless you want to fight bare knuckle, where are you going to fight if PFL doesn't exist? You know what I mean?

So I want them to succeed. I just have not seen enough evidence to say long term, it's going to be a successful game plan. No, that's exactly it, man. And you can only look at the history and what's been done to predict the future. So, yeah, it's a tough thing, man. I don't know. This GFL thing was kind of strange, too.

It kind of came out of nowhere. I mean, kind of, because the guy made the same announcement three years ago. It was called WFL, and it was the same thing. Oh, same guys. Okay. Same guy. Same exact same concept. He announced it in 2021 and never put on an event.

I remember that. I remember the WFL. Okay. That was same guy. Same thing. Same team format. Same concept. Everything.

And so when this announced. And the whole team format thing, that's the biggest part through I think. I'm like, dude, you're just fucking up. Like nobody, like to build somebody caring about a team. Like, I don't even know how you do that. Like, like, yeah, people care. about football and basketball teams, that's completely different. I don't know how you get people interested into caring about a fight team for a city.

Like, people care about stars and drama. Like, that's it. Yeah. It never, I mean, it never, it's, it doesn't work. And, and, and the whole, like, team thing, the only reason it works in other sports is because you're, you're getting people to attach themselves to a city or a state or where they're from. or just, you know, like I said, the general fan base, like, hey, I grew up and I liked the Yankees. I want to root for the Yankees.

Do you stick with the Yankees, your entire life because you just, you're a Yankee fan. That doesn't happen in fighting. You're not going to have, I always remember Dana used to remember the IFL when they had the team format, and he's like, I don't know. I remember he did my podcast years ago, and he said, I don't know who wants to see the crazy beavers fight the woodchucks. And I'm like, okay, we're going to see the crazy bevers, and they're going to have Tyron Woodley, and they're going to have Luke Rockhold, and they're going to have whoever else is on there. Well, guess what? One day Tyrone Woodley's going to leave.

Luke Rockhold's going to leave. Are you still going to watch the crazy beavers with three unknown guys? Like, no, it just doesn't work for MMA. It just does not work for MMA. And as you said, all the gimmicks, tournaments, seasons, teams, we've seen it all before. We've seen them come and fail. It just does not work.

People want to see good fights. They want to see good fighters. And it just, yeah, it confounds me. like how badly these people just get it wrong. And I've heard rumors that these guys have like a $50 million investment or something wild like that. Do you know how quickly you can burn to that kind of money in a promotion? Especially if you're paying guys like, I've heard guys, listen, I heard Tyrone Woodley say like he's getting paid a lot of money. I hope he doesn't get paid a lot of money.

But how long is that sustainable? You know what I mean? I hope that check cashes. Yeah. I hope it doesn't bounce. Do you remember that show years ago? They had down to Dominican Republic. It had like Keith Jardine and like a bunch.

Do you remember that fight card years ago? And like guys went down there and they fought. It was a mess. And then like they couldn't fly home because the promotion couldn't afford to fly them out and bouncing checks. And like, dude, there's danger in that. Like I hope everyone gets paid. I hope this ends up being the most legit thing in the world. But just like I said with PFL, like I want PFL to succeed.

I just have to have doubts because I've seen too much empirical evidence to the contrary. Yeah, well, at least PFL is doing like some like cool, innovative things, like the little smart cage thing, which it doesn't do it for me. But, you know, it's at least unique and innovative. You know, they do put on some good fights here and there. Like, they have some good up-and-comers. They got some prospects. I know, starting a fight promotion and trying to go so big, so quick is such a, God, I don't even know how you say. God, it's got to be like the toughest business model out there on this planet.

You know, if you look at like all of the promotions that are big, right, between boxing and UFC's, like, they all started like kind of small and took many, many years for them to build. Like how to start from the top, unless you're like doing what Saudi Arabia is doing, where you got, you know, just trillions at your disposal, you know, and it's just play money, you know, throwing a few million around here and there because you want to see cool fights, which is obviously a completely different thing. This business model

I would just like, I'd like to see like their accountant's numbers. Like what are you adding up here where in the end all this makes sense? Yeah, it's tough to say it. And I mentioned PFL. We talk about GFL. I'll be honest. Like I think if I had one that I was going to be like,

I don't know if they're going to be around in 2026. I'd probably put my money on one championship because they seem to be in a rough way right now. barely promoting MMA fights. A lot of guys here are like, you know, Reiner to Ritter saying like, if I was a fighter, don't go there. You know, and a lot of guys are like,

you know, we're fighting once a year. They're getting frustrated and leaving. If I had to pay, and again, I want one to succeed. I do. I really do. I'm not saying this because I want anyone to fail. But if you're making me bet on like which one of these promotions

is going to be GFL, PFL or one championship, which one's still going to be a viable player in 2026, I think PFL will, because they're going to get a TV deal of some kind. They are on ESPN right now. Like, they'll get some money. I don't know if it's sustainable beyond this year. I have no idea.

GFL, I'm not even sure they'll ever put on a show. So I don't know if I want to consider them because the last time this announcement was made, nothing happened. Until they put on a show, we're not a lot to talk about, right? Yeah. And then one championship, like, I just, man, like, they've had some, it's been ugly.

It's not been good lately. Like, you see so many guys coming out and saying, like, I don't want to fight there anymore. They didn't fight there anymore. they didn't ever give me, you know, their MMA fights have dwindled down to like one or two a card. And I'm not, I'm not arguing. Like, I know you love Muay Thai and kickboxing. I'm not arguing against that.

But like, now they're doing like two MMA fights a card. Like, what? Like, what are we doing here? So, yeah, again. Yeah, same. And one, I think, is a little bit different to, uh, MMA wise. Who knows, you know, how that future is going to play out. But, you know, they're doing the Friday night fights, um, for one at Lumpini, which is

awesome. They're doing the grappling championships, which is awesome. MMA-wise, I just, I don't know how that's going to pan out, but, you know, I personally love what they are doing, though. And I hope that they are able to keep it going and make money. Yeah, but if you're going to ask me to push my chips in the middle for anybody beyond UFC, it's going to be BKFC, because they seem to have the best

business plan. Like, they are, you know, they sell tickets. Like, I talked to Sabahumasi earlier today. He made his debut. down in Florida this weekend. It was a sold-out show. Now, a sold-out show in 5,000 people doesn't sound like a lot, and I'm sure ticket sales weren't, like, astronomical. They're not doing like a $2 million gate or anything, but no one else is selling 5,000 tickets except the UFC. You know what I mean?

And their main event was, it was Mike Richmond and a guy named Jared Warren. It was a title fight, and I like Mike Richmond and like Jared Warren, but they're not household names. You know what I mean? It wasn't like, you know, so they're selling it based upon the sport of bare knuckle, kind of like what UFC does. Like, UFC can go to Edmonton

and put on what is ultimately not a great main event. I'm not saying, Brandon Marino and Amir Al-Bossey say, good fight, I'm just saying, like, not big names. And not in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. You take Brandon Marino to Mexico a different story.

But it's not, but they're doing record. They go to Tampa. Now, again, I know Colby is a bit of a bigger name, but it wasn't like the card was like stacked. And they do it. massive gate. The UFC is the winner. Like the UFC is the product. You know what I mean?

BKFC's kind of because they're not competing with the UFC and they're not going to compete with the UFC. Like I talked to Dave Feldman, he's like, we're not trying to tackle the UFC. We're not trying to be the UFC. We're trying to carve out our own little niche. And they are. And that's where they're finding success. Because yeah, just the thought

of fighting bare knuckle, like people want to see that. Just that in itself. They don't care who's fighting. now they've done a good job of building like Mike Perry, you know, probably a couple other guys, but when you think of Bear Knuckle, you think of Mike Perry, right? And like what a perfect guy to build that brand on.

I mean, he's got the personality, he's got the fighting style, it works for him. So, yeah, all the cards are lined. But you said it perfectly. You know, it's the UFC can go anywhere and do it because it's the UFC. BKFC can go anywhere and do it because it's BKFC. and that's what a lot of these promotions are missing out on.

They think they're going to ride the MMA train. And it's like there's not an MMA train. There's a UFC train. Yeah. And, you know, I know it pisses people off to make the comparison, but it's true. Like, you know, there are other football leagues out there besides the NFL. There are. But I bet you couldn't name a single fucking team or, like, you know what I mean?

Unless you're in that city or you're just a hardcore, hardcore fan, you know, you know the Cincinnati Bingles, you know the Cleveland Browns. Even if you're not a football fan, you know these names. You know what I mean? If you're not a fight fan, you know of UFC. You probably know of Connor McGregor. You know John Jones. You know, you know generally.

Even like the most casual person knows of these things. Walk up to a casual fan that is just not a fight fan. They're just like a guy who turns on SportsCenter and watches it. Do you think they know the PFL? Do you think they know, you know, I'm not knocking. I'm just saying, like, do you think they know the champion's names? No, they don't. And BKFC is carving out their own thing because they're different and they're,

and it's something interesting. Like, as you said, everyone understands a bare and uncle fight. Just like Dana White always says, like, everyone understands when two guys get into a fight, we understand that. We understand what that means. Bear and uncle is even a rar form of that, arguably. Like, it's even more raw because there's no takedowns. There's no knees, no help but you're pushing the shit out of each other with a bear

and uncle. And you're doing it for 10 minutes, you have five, two minute rounds. Like it's like a sprint. Yeah, they, they, they, they, They found a way to kind of carve themselves into the combat sports space, whereas all these other promotions just haven't. And I'm not just sitting there praising BKFC, but I'm just saying, like, they found a way to do it. And I don't think their payroll is astronomical. Like, I'm not saying they're not paying guys, but they're not spending, they're not telling me you're going to get 50% revenue.

We're going to pay you $80,000 to fight. They know they'd go under in about two minutes. You know what I mean? Like, they're going to pay Mike Perry a shit ton of. money, you know, and they're going to pay, like, if they get Robbie Lawler to come in and fight him, they're going to pay him a shit ton of money, but they're not going to pay everyone on the undercard, you know, 80 grand to fight there. Like, they seem to get it.

You know, they seem to get the model, and they sell tickets and people seem to care. And like I said, the Connor thing. Connor is an owner. I'm sure he puts some money into it and he owns a percentage of the company. They're not paying him. He just shows up. Raves, rant about the events, posts on Twitter, posts on Instagram, constantly. and they're not paying him a dime.

Yeah, he's making money off of it, though, right? You said. Yeah. But that's what I'm saying. They're not saying here, we're going to give you $10 million to come fight for us, Conner. They're saying you come in. And Connor, that's the other thing. If Connor actually did, I don't think he ever will.

But if he ever fought bare and uncle, he's an owner. He's going to control his own purse. He's going to say, I'm going to make $10 million, then they're going to pay him $2 million. It's probably worth it because Connor McGregor is Conner McGregor. They're going to sell a shit ton of pay reviews. but that like that is to me the brilliance of that like getting Connor involved with them on that level like they're not Connor's not fighting there he's just promoting them I just I just I think I think BKFC has a winning formula I don't see a winning formula from anybody else if I'm being honest yeah and like you say it's unfortunate you know I wish that there was more competition and I thought that Bell Tour always had a good chance of being sort of the number two you know it just seems like all these guys they they they They try all these different niche type things like teams or tournaments. And it's like just put on good fights, be play the long game, be consistent with it.

You know, take care of the fighters without breaking your own bank. And, you know, be patient. You know, they're all trying to, you know, do something right now. And it's like, dude, just take your time and let it happen. And it may not blow up to be, you know, the second biggest. you might be stuck, you know, at a smaller cap, right? But at least you're not losing money, right? At least you're not going out of business.

Yeah, you're not going out of business. You're not going out of business. So, you know, and I guess the little bit of that too would probably be the difference between a lot of these guys getting into the business for the money versus guys that, you know, actually love the business and want to do it for a long time. Yeah. Well, I'll say this where we get out of here. going back to GFL.

Because they sign like all these guys. And by the way, if you care about a fighter, if you care about all these fighters, I don't know that I'd be touting that I signed Vandal A. Silva right after Vandale's Silva said he's got brain damage. Maybe that's not the best idea of like, I'm going to promote this brand. But neither here nor there.

If they booked Luke Rockhold and Tyrone Woodley, let's say that's the fight they book. That's an interesting fight. Tyron's a former champion. Luke Rockhold's a former champion. It's an interesting fight. I don't give a fuck if it's Luke Rockhold versus Iron Woodley and it's like the Houston, whatever, the Fox versus the California.

I don't care about any of that. I care about Tyrone Woodley and Lou Rockholm. Give me that. I don't need the team shit. I don't need the point shit. Just like I said with PFL, like the season format is two fights. That's not a season. That's not even, you know, what?

A first round finish and because you go into a decision doesn't matter as much. Just give us good fights. Give us drama. That's all we really want. So I don't know. We'll see. Again, I don't know if I'm a betting man on this whole thing, but we'll see how it plays out. in 2020.

But again, to be totally clear and totally transparent, I want everyone to succeed. It's better for the fighters if these people are around. But unfortunately, we just have enough evidence to say it just generally doesn't work.

Yeah, it's a tough business, man. And I love Tyrone Woodley and Lou Rockhold. If they fight, am I going to watch it? Like, yeah, if I'm not doing anything else, I'm not going to go on my way to watch it. You know, those guys, you know, they're amazing fighters. it could be a great fight, you know, if it ends up happening.

But it's, you know, again, they built their name in the UFC. Yeah. Like this is, this model has been done. How many times have we seen now? Like, they try to take guys that built their name in the UFC and then they're, you know, either older or released from their UFC contracts, whatever. And nobody really cares. You get into the hardcore guys, we're like, hey, you know,

it's Luke Rock holding tower on Woodley. We've got to see it. No one really cares because it's not UFC. Yeah, I hope, if I had one hope, though, if PFL has a chance, they did it with Kayla Harrison. They built her into a star. The problem that they have with Kayla Harrison was is there's just no one for her to fight. She had to fight Larissa Pacheco three times. You better invest and keep Dakota DeCeva because that girl's got star power written all over.

She is nasty. She is good. She is just star power personified. You better go out and find competition. She fights a flyweight, so it's not as hard. Find competition and keep her busy and lock her up. that woman has star potential. Dakota has huge star potential. Sure. And then the problem for her is, you know, is she ever going to reach her peak if she

doesn't fight in the UFC? No matter who they get or, you know, what kind of offers they make her. Even if you, if they pay you good money, your brand is not going to be magnified to the extent that it will in the UFC. That's all there is to it. Yeah. I mean, I said this was Francis. I want Francis to be successful and I'm happy Francis is successful but there was not buzz on a global like outside of the little you know the MMA bubble there was not buzz

about him fighting Hayn and Frerey. There wasn't like no you know what I mean like it just didn't it didn't break through and I said this after he'd be hanging frerely who the fucks are going to fight now who are they actually going to get like this is going to matter I still don't know that question he's now talking about doing no Thai superior rematch because like And Ingano was a is in his peak and one of the best fighters in the world.

Yeah. Right. And still nobody cared that he fought Henan Frera. Yeah. It's a reality. But if he fought Henan Frera in the UFC and the UFC built it up and told everybody Hennon Fara is this killer and everything, just the fact that it was in the UFC would have been a game changer. It would have sold, you know, 20 times more pay-per-views.

And if Francis Ingana was fighting Tom Aspinall or Francis the guy I was fighting John Jones, it would matter. It would matter, and it would be fun. I'd love to see that. Yeah, you're absolutely right. Yeah, like I said, again, I want everyone to succeed. I just, again, I can't not have doubts. I've been around too long.

You know, you could argue pride was like at one point bigger than the UFC at one point, like in terms like, you know, overall standing in the global. But what happened? They eventually, you know, went away. Yeah, they made their mistakes, but. Yeah, I mean, they made it. Yeah, pride could have got it done, right? You know, if everything, I don't know, had they just done things right, you know,

they had the right formula. You know, they were doing the right things. They put on great shows, and there were a lot of pride die-hards and still is even today, right? Pride never die. Yeah. But that's a long-lost story now. Now it's just the UFC and everybody else is somewhere at the bottom. Do you remember that video

The photo came out years ago Dana with the tombstones in his office? Do you remember that that came out? I think it was like when Strike Force went away had all the tombstones, all the promotions and said they were going to beat the UFC. You're not going to beat the UFC. You're never going to be DFC.

There's nothing wrong with being second or third place in the sport. Like I said, I would argue BKFC's number two. And one thing Dave Feldman has told me repeatedly when I've talked to him, he's like, we're not trying to be the UFC. We're not trying to take on the USC. We want to be friends with the USC.

We want to be great with Dana White. That's the approach you take. You know what I mean? Don't take the Don Davis approach being combated with Dana White. That's never going to work out for you. It hasn't worked out so far. Not really. All right.

Matt, obviously, I said we're going to be off for the next two weeks. We're going to take a little vacation. We'll be back right before UFC 2 or 311. Excuse me. That's Islam and Arman. So we'll have our breakdown and pick some predictions for that card. Umar and Marab. All that kind of stuff.

So we get a little break for the New Year. Do you have big plans with the family for the holidays? We're just going on a little ski trip down to Seven Springs, PA. But right now the weather is looking like it's going to be warm and rainy. So it might not be much of a ski trip this year. Do a little surfing. Yeah, it's going to be more surfing than skiing. Yeah, exactly.

But yeah, that's kind of my Christmas present to the kids every year. We go on a ski trip. So, you know, I think it's cooler to make memories with the kids and then the unwrapped gifts that they're going to be in the track. by July. Especially kids, man, because I remember when I was,

you remember what it was like when a kid, you're like, you want this thing so badly and a year later you could give a shit. Like, yes. Yeah,

yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, one of our favorite activity to do together is go skiing, snowboarding. So it's a lot of fun.

We've had fun every year. We've done it. Not looking so hot this year, though, not looking so good. Not so cold, maybe I should say. It's just not looking good, but maybe,

you know, we can still go. and we'll still be there and we'll figure it out when we get there. Yeah, well, hopefully it works out. Everyone, of course, we want to say a big thank you to everyone that tuned into the show this year and obviously supported us. And you can do so by always checking us out on your favorite podcast platforms, Apple Podcasts, Spotify.

And of course, over on the best website, mhmafiting.com. Matt, if people want to support you, where can they go? At I'm the Immortal Facebook. I am the immortal on X, Twitter, and on Instagram, the Immortal Matt Brown on Facebook. there you go and we'll be back in the new year as I said we'll be all for the next two weeks we're going to come back right before UFC 311 so we'll give our picks and predictions for that fight card but a huge thank you to everyone that tuned into the show this year we really appreciate it we're looking forward to a little break but we'll be back in a couple weeks for matt brown

I'm damon Martin we will see you in 2025 thanks for tuning in to the fighter versus the writer we will see you then