MMA Fighting - Fighter vs. Writer: Matt Brown Not Interested in Seeing Colby Covington Again, Plus Where Tony Ferguson Goes After UFC 296

Episode Date: December 19, 2023

Following arguably the biggest card of the year at UFC 296, UFC legend Matt Brown and MMA Fighting senior reporter Damon Martin react to everything that unfolded on Saturday night in the final pay-per-view card in 2023. Leon Edwards successfully defended his title in the main event with a shutout performance over Colby Covington. Following the loss in his third attempt at becoming undisputed champion, where does Covington go from here? Does he have what it takes to earn his way back for another title shot or has he already reached his ceiling in the UFC? With Edwards winning, is Belal Muhammad next in line or did Shavkat Rakhmonov beating Stephen “Wonderboy” Thompson change the pecking order at welterweight? We’ll also discuss the fallout from Tony Ferguson suffering a seventh straight loss to Paddy Pimblett and if he should actually retire or possibly return for another fight? All this and more on the latest episode of The Fighter vs. The Writer! Subscribe to MMA Fighting Check out our full video catalog Like MMA Fighting on Facebook Follow on Twitter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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the downloaded. It's a thought-provoking sci-fi journey where identity, memory, and morality collide. Robert J. Sawyer does it again with this much-anticipated sequel that leaves you asking, what are you willing to lose to save the ones you love? The downloaded two, ghosts in the machine. Available now, only from Audible.

To the Fighter versus the Writer, I'm Damon Martin. He is UFC legend Matt Brown. And Matt, you were off last week doing filming and just abandoning me on the show and I had to bring in a guest host to preview USC 996. You left me all alone. But you're back.

They probably did better than me anyway. Yeah, I was out in Boston filming for dynamic striking, some instructional courses. Man, we did about 10 hours a day for two days filming. Damn. Did four instructional. So we're going to be releasing those over the next, I don't know, four or five, six months, whatever. It was a blast, man. I love doing that.

And, you know, it really helps me. you know, it really helps me put everything. Like we have all, I'm sorry, we have all these thousands of techniques and all these different things we learn all the time. And it helps me like bring it all together. You know, when you have to re-explain it, re-teach it to someone else.

It's like, how do I do this in a step-by-step manner and make it, you know, where it's a building blocks. And because I learned everything kind of sporadically. So I'm like, if someone wants to learn it quickly, I got to break it down piece by piece. step by step to really puts things together even better for myself. So I love doing it. Yeah, and I imagine it's a lot of repetition too, right?

Because you've got to film it. Like you got to do it in multiple angles. You got to do it in different ways. We do one take and we go just one camera. Oh, really? Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Sometimes a little annoying. I mean, they do edit, you know, so what I do is I'll go way over. I'll say way more than I want to. And then, you know, I'll talk with them later about editing it all out, you know, some of the fluff and some of the bullshit. I don't know, bullshit, but, you know, the extra stuff that's not necessary. But, yeah, we just bust it right out, man. Those instructionals are a blast, too, because there's a lot of people who can't, like, they can't get to Ohio to train with you. You know what I mean?

It's like, like, I know I've told this story on the show before. Like, when I first got involved in MMA and I started liking it where I lived, kind of like it was like, you were both from Ohio, but we're both from smaller towns at Ohio. where I grew up in Ohio, we had karate schools. No one knew what MMA was. I don't even if MMA was the word we called the way UFC was around. So I had nowhere. So my first thing I learned was Frank Shamrock, VHS Instructionals. He had a three tape series.

And that was where I first learned how to do moves in MMA. Like when I first started loving the sport and started training a little bit, that's how it was. Like I had no fucking clue where I was going at, no idea what I was doing. But Frank Shamrock had a three VHS tape of all the fundamentals of fighting. and I watched them over and over and over again, learned a lot of shit. To this day, some of that stuff I still understand

because of learning it for Frank Sheramock and those instructionals. That's so funny, that was my first too. I think mine was Ken Shamrock, though. I've been Frank. I don't remember. Yeah, it was the same thing, bro. But that's exactly right.

Like, people can't, everybody can't just come to Columbus and trade. So, you know, and when we're talking about doing the one take, that's why I'm able to do one take is because I teach, I practice teaching all this in class three times a week. I teach on Monday, Wednesday, Friday mornings specifically to get ready for the instructional. That's why I teach. I could just pay someone to teach, but I do it just so that when the instructional, I can see, like I teach a technique and then they practice it, and then I can see where all the issues are.

Maybe I need to articulate a little better or what I need to think about, you know, where the problems are coming up. So I take notes on that so that when instructional comes around time to film i already know exactly where all the issues are going to come up and i can be a step ahead of them yeah those things are just hugely beneficial like i said i watch them i still to this day watch jiu jitsu instructional as well i feel like i have a pretty good grasp on like i'm not a black belt by any stretch of imagination but in terms of like watching and understanding i've watched enough jiu jitsu and watched enough mb and i understand it pretty well but I still like to watch instructional just to like brush up,

understand new moves, you know what I mean? And so like, instructional are hugely beneficial, man. I love those kind of things. So that's awesome that you're doing those. And I know they could be hugely beneficial to people who are just starting out or people who just want to learn different techniques. Or, again, they just can't get to Ohio to like learn from you.

Well, hey, I live in Canada. Well, I can't fly to Ohio and learn at Immortal Martial Arts Center, but I can watch Dynamic Striking and learn techniques from Matt Brown. Yeah. So that's what most people just buy the Jiu-Jitsu instructional. For some reason, the striking instructional has never seemed to sell nearly as well. And that's what I'm doing is the striking portion because that's my primary art. I'm going to do some grappling, ground, and pound instructional instructional in the future.

But it's really amazing to me that everybody looks at Jiu-Jitsu is this, you know, amazing art that takes all these little intricacies and they respect that. but then they think striking they're like oh just punch them in the face i don't need the instructional learn how to do that so uh i find it very strange or maybe just the type of people i don't know the type of person that is attracted to moitai and striking in general is maybe not as open to instructional's i'm not sure but well there's a lot of there's a lot of nuance and striking certainly i don't need to tell you that but there's a lot of nuance and striking that took me years to understand like what i was watching like just little things like footwork Like foot placement.

We went to your gym last year, and I was filming something for you when you were doing. You demonstrated Yawanna-Jech, spinning back fist elbow with Zhang Wei Lee, where she got knocked out of spinning back fist. And you were talking how important the foot placement was in that knockout, how it happened and breaking it down. And watching you do it, I understood what you were doing. But if you would have said that to me 10, 12 years ago, I wouldn't have understood that. because I didn't understand even as long as I've been covering the sport of MMA for 20 years, the little intricacies of like foot placement.

It's not just about throwing the right technique. It's about having your foot in the right place around your opponent. Little things like that that you don't necessarily think about. We see the highlight real. We see Josh Emmett unload a nuclear bomb that knocks up Bryce Mitchell. We don't know and see until you look at the replays and you look at the place, like where he was stepping, how he stepped into it. it, where it land, all the little things.

So striking is just as complicated as Jiu-Jitsu, but you're absolutely right. It doesn't get the same kind of attraction for that. But if you actually watch it and understand it, someone teaches it to you, it's just as complicated. I'll be the first to admit. I suck at striking, which is why I never got as interested in it, because when I tried to do it, I was never as good at it.

Well, I'll tell you, I think striking may actually be more intricate in the sense that in grappling in jiu-jitsu, Like when you get an instructional, it kind of goes out to everyone. And it really can kind of apply it to everyone, right? Like how you do a Kimora is the same for pretty much every single person. There may be little nuances here, but the fundamentals of it are the same. And with striking, though, it's actually going to be a little bit different for everyone, right? Like Wonder Boy does it nowhere near the same as like Shavcott, for instance, right?

Like it's just completely different styles and takes. And so I think that has a lot to do with it. So like the DVD or instructional course, you know, online, whatever that I did last week was just on the fundamental. So you can build your own style on top of what I'm showing you versus, you know, like this is my style and this is the way it should be done. Because there's no shoulds in striking. Whereas in grappling and wrestling, there are like some shoulds. Like you absolutely should have your head up when you should. shoot a shot, right? You know what I mean? Yeah, no, absolutely. And like I said, we talk about this all the

time in the show, like, talking about the nuances of striking. Like, think about it this way. Like, if you, if you, on paper, we're trying to break down Gokon Saki and Khalil Roundree, you would say go Kekhan Saki is clearly the better striker. But then you go in the cage, one thing goes wrong, one guy steps left, the other guy steps right, Kalil Roundtree lands off a shot and he knocks out Kokan Saki. So that's also the danger of that is like, you know, you can be the, like, you can be the most technically proficient striker in the world. Look at what happened with Anthony Pettus when he fought Wonderboy. Like, no one would have guessed that Anthony Pettis, a lightweight, was going to bounce off

a cage and Superman punch and knock out Stephen Wonderboy Thompson. That's the nature of the beast, though. Like, that's how unpredictable that could be and how dangerous and how hard, tough it is to learn striking at that level. Like, you could be more technically proficient than your opponent and still just one mistake, one slip. And the other guy gets you. That's a great point, too, because when you look at striking versus

is grappling. To me, like the biggest difference when you're breaking everything down is in striking, like even if you're, you know, Logan Paul fighting Floyd Mayweather,

you know, Floyd might touch you up, move away, he might make you miss, but you always get a reset. You always feel like you have another chance because you always do get another chance. Whereas in grappling,

like if Gordon Ryan takes you down, like you do not have a chance. Yeah. Like you're a completely shot. Like there's your your chances are like a one in a bazillion versus in striking. Your chances might still be one a bazillion, but it feels like your chances are, you know, maybe one in a thousand or one and a hundred,

whatever it is, right? You get this feeling because you constantly reset. Yeah, it's interesting. You say that. Yeah, no, like I said, there's so much to it, so much nuance to it, so much you have to learn about it.

Yeah, I mean, even if you're not, even if you're not planning on becoming a world-class striker, like those instructional can still be beneficial just to understand what you're watching, to know what you're doing. Like I said, like little things like that I wouldn't have understood years ago that I understand now because I have studied and I have watched instructional and things like that. So not to make a sales pitch here, but it can be absolutely beneficial, whether you're trying to be a fighter or you're just trying to learn the basics of what you're watching when you're fighting.

I'm not scared to make sales pitches. Like, you know, my instructional, like I said, I did the fundamentals over the last weekend. And I built this entire fundamentals courses off of all these guys that I've been teaching, regular people and professional athletes and, you know, high-level fighters. The mistakes that I've seen watching millions of fights or thousands of fights, whatever, these mistakes that I've seen statistically, high over 20 years of watching this. Yeah.

And working with guys and things obviously that I was taught also myself. So like when I look at the techniques that I teach to others, rather than trying to teach my own style or techniques, which I will get into if it works for them. But I try to make it like, okay, what's the highest probability statistically that this is going to work because everything in martial arts is that's what you're basing everything off of right everything is just okay is this going to work is this has a high probability high percentage of working or does it not and throw it out and for some people certain things have a high

probability of working for other people things don't like the sidekick has a high probability for wonder boy which is why he throws it it doesn't have a high probability for me at all so i don't throw it. For most people, it doesn't. That's why the jab is the most important punch, right? Because it has a high probability. And, you know, when it's done properly, it has a very high chance of setting something up or help or working for you in some manner. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Definitely something you can learn. And like I said, you know, the majority, I would wager the majority of people who watch instructionals like that or even, even train in the gym. Like the vast majority of people are not trying to be professional fighters.

Like, you know, there's a, there's a group, absolutely. But, you know, I remember when I went to American Top Team, I definitely saw tons of professional fighters, but there was also a ton of teenagers and kids and, you know, guys who are tax attorneys coming in to train after work or, you know, you're not teaching everyone at your gym is not going to try to be Matt Brown in the UFC. They're just learning martial arts. Like, they're just learning how to throw a punch, learning how to do Jiu-Jitsu, whatever it is. exactly yeah and that's what most people are one to do which is again why fundamentals are so important

because the funny thing is as simple as they are the fact is you know when you go to the gym for the first day you start learning fundamentals right well when you go to the gym for the 10,000th day you're still learning fundamentals yeah absolutely absolutely so let's get into what we saw last night, Matt, which was UFC 2-96. Biggest of the year, arguably, with the most stacked main car. Yes, we did lose out on Ian Machado, Gary. He

dropped out of the card last minute with pneumonia. His father of Vicente Lucke got scrapped. Of course, we did hear they rebooked it. He's now going to fight Jeff Neal in March, which that'll be interesting because Jeff Neal wants to punch a holder, Ian Gary's head. So that'll be awfully interesting. But

let's just kick things off with the main event, which was Leon Edwards getting unanimous decision win over Colby Covington. A strange fight to say the least. I mean, I know Colby's got to play this character and he's no longer dropping the facade. Like, he's no longer like, you know, being humble even for like six seconds after a fight. Like, he's just keeping up the persona the entire time he's saying there is no character because he's always said it was a character.

And now he's suddenly trying to play like there's not a character. Matt Colby looked awful last night. He did not look good at all. He looked like he didn't show up to fight. And him winning one round in the fifth round really to me came down to. Leon kept trying to engage with him in the grappling to out battle him in the grappling. And he did round after round. The fifth round, he finally got caught and got stuck underneath Colby for two and a half minutes.

And that's why he lost the final round. But outside of that, Leon won every exchange. And that's a mistake on Leon's. part just like I got to prove something to this guy and I'll grapple him and again he did for a big part of the fight but man Colby Covington I don't know a better way I don't want to say it in an insulting way but I'm just saying this is the easiest way to explain it to an audience he shot the bed see I've seen a lot of people saying that online and stuff and I think we're taking a little bit of credit away from Leon when we say that because I also think that Leon looked very good

looked very sharp, was patient, stayed fundamental, stayed with his purpose, fought his game plan perfectly, and didn't allow Kobe to get started either. You know, as bad as Colby looked, you know, I'm not as convinced that it was Colby as much as it was Leon. I think it was both. And let me be clear.

Leon fought great. He did. And also, remember, you got to have two to tango. The fact that Colby wouldn't engage takes away some of Leon's ability, to engage because if you're just chasing him constantly, you're setting yourself up to a potential to take down things like that. So you can overengage and pay for it. We've seen that happen a million times. So Leon was playing smart. Leon is most dangerous a distance. And that's what he did. He popshoved him, he jabbed him, kicked at him, that front kick. He had

Colby's leg chewed up. His thigh had a bruise on it the size of a freaking paint can. Yeah, Leon deserves all the credit in the world. But again, the reason I bring up and I highlight Colby first is because Colby like he didn't do anything for the first like three rounds like he didn't try to go for a takedown he barely threw a strike like he didn't step forward and I agree part of that was at least

at least part of that was Leon Colby didn't want to engage with Leon what Leon was doing prevented Colby from really engaging but also Colby didn't fight at all like Colby like Colby didn't press forward Colby didn't really go for takedowns

Colby didn't try to go. Like, I was 100% convinced that's what Colby was going to do. Now, I picked Leon to win regardless. I thought Leon would shrug him off, stay on the outside, pick him apart that way, and eventually hurt him on the feet. Didn't play out that way. But Colby, man, this is where we talk about. When you talk a big game, you better go in and back it up.

And boy, did he not back that up on Saturday night. That's for sure. You know, forgetting all the talk of big game shit because, you know, that's Colby and he's going to talk a big game no matter what every time. But, you know, the thing was I thought that Colby probably started slower than we expected, you know, that first round, you know, he didn't really do much, didn't really try much of anything, which made sense to me, right, with two years off coming in, you know, fighting Leon Edwards for the title. You know, you're in a five-round fight.

It's like, you know, take that first round and get one. warmed up a little bit, kind of feel out your game playing, get warmed up a little bit. But again, once he started trying things, and he didn't try a lot, but when he did try things, I think Leon just popped him so quick and so easy that it was, you know, it never allowed Colby to get started also. Now, if you're Leon, of course you don't overextend. Like what you're expecting is Colby to come in with, you know, high volume and, you know, spamming shots. and try to push against the cage the whole time. So, you know, he's probably trained most of the fight to counter, right?

Like you said, stay at a distance, try to shrug them off and all that. But every time Colby even tried anything, like Leon popped him right back, and he was chopping him with that leg. He didn't, I think he just didn't allow Colby to get started. And then Leon actually started pressing the action later on, which is where Colby ended up winning the fifth round. like you said, because, you know, Leon decided to wrestle with him, which I respect because that's Leon out there taking risk, taking chances,

like, you know, let's fight. Let's, you know, see what we can do here. But I credit Leon personally, man. Like, I don't give, I don't think that Colby, like, had an off night. You know, I don't think it was the ring Russ. Like, I think Leon put it on him. Like, he kept his distance well. He, when Colby did attempt a couple.

double shots. I think Colby felt that he, um, the defense from Leon and he wasn't able to get anything started. And I credit Leon for that. Absolutely. And I think when we also learned a little bit about Colby last night, which was something that I suspected, but I didn't know because, you know, Colby had beaten Mazvedal who was, you know, again, I'm not negating the win, but, you know, Mazvedal was towards the end of his career. Masvedal was always an undersized welterweight. He was a lightweight for most of his career. When he beat Woodley, that was not the Tyron Woodley who was knocking out Robbie Lawler. We all know that.

That was a shell of what Tyrone Woodley once was. And when he fought Robbie Lawler, that was not the Robbie Lawler that you fought years ago. Like, that was a different Robbie Lawler. And I'm not, again, I'm not trying to negate what he did. I'm just saying that he was fighting older, slower guys at the tail into their careers. When he fought Usman, did he give Usman a good fight a couple of times? Sure. Did he win either of those fights?

No. And giving a guy a good fight, winning a couple rounds isn't winning the fight. You know, like, Connor won one round on Khabib on a couple of scorecards. Doesn't mean he beat Khabi. He won a, he won a round. You know, Colby won a couple of rounds on Kamar Usman. He got knocked out in one. He got his jaw broken, and he got beaten the other one.

I had at like 49-46. He had one round on my scorecard. Yeah, he pushed Kamar Usman a little bit harder than at the time Kamar had been pushed. Okay, good. But he didn't really do anything. He didn't beat him. He certainly didn't win either fight. You know what I mean?

And so I think what we saw on Saturday night was the limitations of where Colby Covington is and where he can go. Leon was clearly the superior fighter. He was a better striker. You could argue he was the better grappler for the most majority of the fight until basically got taken down and, you know, really just basically got laid on for two and a half minutes at the third round the fifth round. And at that point, the fight was pretty much over.

He just had to make sure he didn't get knocked out or get caught. with something stupid, and that's what he did. You saw there's a couple times where he just held on to Colby, and he's like, I already won, because he was up four rounds to none. Like, at that point, he's just making sure he doesn't make a stupid mistake and get caught with something. I think we saw the limitations of who Colby Covington is, because when your, when your, when your biggest claim to fame is you fought the number one guy in the world and you

didn't lose every round, that's not really the, that's not really the hill you want to die on, you know what I mean? Like, that's, you know, good. You took a couple rounds with Kumar Usman. You still lost both fights. And his wins, he didn't finish any of them. Like, if you're, if you're in that position and you got a 155 pounder in Maswell, you got a guy in Woodley who was, and yes, I know Woodley did get finished technically. He had a rib injury. You know, it wasn't like he got knocked out or submitted. And then Robbie Lawler, he put on the most significant strikes ever, and he couldn't finish him. He couldn't put him away. I think we started to see the ceiling on Kobe coming to a little bit.

I think we saw him against a much better welterweight on Saturday night, and he lost in a pretty lopside of fight. Yep, I could not have said it better myself. I think that's exactly it. And, you know, like Dana said, you know, this sport doesn't wait for no one. So, you know, take it two years off and the sport evolving, you know, didn't help him one bit, in my opinion. He should have been fighting that whole time.

And on top of that, I mean, we know who should have had this title fight anyway. You know, Colby got in there. Colby's career has been built with his mouth. And, you know, good for him, right? Like he, he's, we all know who he is now, right? But it's mainly been built with his mouth. You know, he's won some good fights, you know. But his performances, other than the Robbie Lawler fight, in my opinion,

have never really been that impressive. So, you know, he is where he is because of his mouth. And, you know, on one hand, I'm like, okay, good for you. Like, you made some money. On the other hand, you know, when you start saying shit like he did last week, it's like, is that worth the money, you know, to have your reputation ruin? Like, no one, who's going to want to do business with you? You know, who's going to have respect for you as a person?

Maybe fucking Donald Trump will. you know but if you know if he has any respect for himself he wouldn't either so you know like can you imagine like a president being cool with a guy that said the kind of shit that Colby says you know so it's it's ludicrous yeah it's uh again I think we've reached a ceiling of Colby Covington and I think he didn't do himself any favors like because you know like even for five minutes after he lost to Kumar this one the second time he had like five minutes of humility and then of course he starts talking shit again. But he had five minutes of humility,

and people saw him for who he was in that. But just in that briefest of moments where he shook Usman's hand, say, congratulations, whatever it was. They had that little brief conversation there, and he kind of humbled himself. Because I remember when I was at Conner's first fight with Nate Diaz and he got choked out,

and I remember talking to him at the post-fied press conference that night. It wasn't the same Connor. Very soft-spoken. Maybe I'll go back to featherweight, you know, do this, do that. You know, very respectful. It stopped two days later.

He's calling, talking shit and saying, I want to fight him again. I got you, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But for that five minutes of humility, we saw, you know, what happens when you lose. And Colby didn't do that. And then on the post-fight interview, he's still like Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump, and that was getting, that was stupid. Like, that played terribly. Trump was sitting five feet away, and he didn't even go fuck.

And then I didn't really lose. And then he got so pissed off at the end. and he said, F you guys, like, you know, like, you're all losers and broke and F you or whatever he said. He just lost it. And the crowd turned on him. The crowd absolutely turned on him. Like when he walked out, it was like a 50-50 split.

There were people booing him, but there were definitely people cheering for him, too, the whole USA thing, and Donald Trump was there and all that. By the end, he didn't have anyone cheering for him. He put on a really bad performance. He got dominated in, let's be honest, it wasn't the most exciting fight in the world. And then he started making excuses. I had a long layoff, maybe ring rust, and I still don't think I lost, and blah, blah, blah. Dude, people will see through that act eventually.

You need to show your real self in that moment. Just humble yourself. I lost shitty night at the office, had a bad nightman credit to Leon. Congratulations. And then two hours later, you can start talking shit again. But you got to have that moment of humility. He didn't. And I think people saw through that veneer of false confidence.

and people started turning against him. Like people were booing him. Like he was on the way out. Like people were literally just booing him loudly. Yeah, it sucks for him, man. You know, like, but you, you know, you reap what you show, right? So, you know, he put himself in that position. And again, I respect it.

Like, it's like, you know, you want to go with WWE style, try to make money. You know, like Connor did. Like Colby certainly made some money. You know, I, trail sonnet. you know, Tito Ortiz, like, you know, it's a, it's a path to go down. You know, you're setting yourself up for failure, though, right? You're setting yourself up for exactly that. And like you said, when you lose, you know, like, you know, invite the guy to a barbecue, right?

You know, be kind of cool about it, man. Like, that's what it is. Like, like, you're in there to settle things, right? Like, that's what the sport is. Like, you're settling with your fist. so you know it wasn't settled so you know i think i speak for everyone we're like we don't really care if we see him again or not right yeah i don't i don't think there's a lot of people that are like excited to see him fight again so yeah always i mean i know we said it beforehand because you

were actually talking about retirement i agreed i think we've seen him fight for the title for the last time like i don't think he's ever going to get close because he's not he's not going to want to go through the shavcats of the world together he already shot it down last night someone's like what about shaft cat and he's like oh i want wonder boy wonder boy's the fight that's the one i want to make he's already trying to pivot to a guy who's obviously again on the tail end of his career and lost and lost in lopsided a fashion of shaft cat and he's like give me wonder boy and i'm just like dude this is like again and even then people saw right through it i tweeted it last night people of course you don't want to fight chavcali of course you don't want that fight um yeah i i think we've seen

Colby? It's just a different way of doing a career. And you know, I talk about this with some younger fighters sometimes. Like, you know, you can do the Leon way, right, where you're respectful and humble the whole time. But you might have to win 10, 12 fights in a row. You know, the Tony Ferguson way, right? Like, the Ballel way. You know, and that's a more respectful way to go, in my opinion. You can also take the Connor route. You can take the Colby route. But now you got to deal with the consequences of what that is. you know, you might make the money, you know, I guess, you know, one out of a hundred of those people, you know, break out like Colby or Connor or whatever and make the money. But you're going to have to deal with that for the rest of your life, you know, you're going to have to deal with that's how you got through and, you know, your kids are going to be watching you on TV. Your grandkids are going to be watching you.

And, you know, for me personally, and I think from most fighters, like, you know, we want to have some respect in what we're did and have some integrity and be proud of who we were. Yeah. You have to remember, you know, words have consequences. And we just saw this last week with Ian Gary. You know, he loved to talk trash, talk trash on everybody. But then it turned around on him. And the whole Sean Strickland thing happened.

And then everyone kind of turned against him. And they were going after his wife. And I even said, like, on the podcast before, I don't, I don't think people should go after people's wives. Like, I don't, that doesn't really do much for me. But that's what happened. And then when he dropped out, I'm sure he really had pneumonia. I have no doubt he actually had pneumonia.

But people went ham on him because they're like, you took it, you dish it out, and you can't take it. And he cut off the comments on his Instagram. Everyone just jumped all over him because when you talk that big game and you trash Neil Magne, a universally just nice, humble dude, and you trashed Jeff Neal who is just a guy. Like, I've interviewed Jeff Neal 100 times, or not 100 times. but I've interviewed him a bunch of times, and he's just a soft-spoken dude who goes out there and beats people's asses.

Like, he's not the kind of guy who's going to trash talk you or say crazy things. You turn it around on him, it's going to come back to you, and this situation turned ugly for Ian Gary. And I don't know, like, can you bounce back and recover from it? Sure, but that's the risk you run. Like, that's the risk you run when you decide to promote yourself like that, that when you slip, or you have a bad night at the office, or someone gets over on you, they're going to drive that like a hammer into a nail in your head over it like it or not like that's the risk you run yeah exactly and i'll tell you what though he and gary's a good-looking fighter man like this guy you know i think the sky is the limit for this guy man

i'm i'm actually really excited minus all the trash talk all the brash you know shit that he is and everything um i'm really excited to watch this guy fight in the future man i think he has a bright future and i think we can all agree like this dude is the real deal. He is. He's absolutely the real deal. And I don't really, I don't, again, I don't have I said this before and I don't want to get too far off topic, Matt, but like I, I've always quietly enjoyed. Like the trash talk is fun when it's done well. You know what I mean? It can be fun when it's done well. But what we've seen recently, people have stopped being fun and creative and they just started going for the lowest blow possible. What Colby

Covington said about Leon Edwards' father was disgusting. I don't, care what Leon Edwards dad's reputation was. I mean, because Kobe was doubling down on it last night saying he was a bad guy. I don't care. It's his dad. He was 13 years old and his dad got murdered. You don't mock that. You don't do that. You know what I mean? Like, that's just fucked up. And I'll say the same, listen, I'm not saying Sean Strickland has not said horrible things about people, certainly not absolving him of this. But then when Dracus makes that comment about him being molested or whatever. Dude, that's just like,

where are we going? Like, I always, when Connor used to say things that were funny, Red Panty Night and who the fuck is this? That was hilarious. Like, he was always good about picking up on people and pissing it. He pissed off Jose Aldo so bad that Jose Aldo went in and fought a terrible game plan. I got knocked down 13 seconds because he had Jose so pissed off about it. But that was all based upon mostly around him just saying I'm better than Jose.

really, that's what Connor was saying. I'm better than you. You're not as good as me. I'm the best way. Blah, blah, blah, blah. But, man, like, dude, this lowest, like, let's see who can go lower shit, man. I'm just not into it. Like, I'm not, like, you dude, pump up Trump all you want.

I don't really care. Wearing the George Washington outfit to the press conference was goofy and whatever. Again, I don't really care. But when you start saying stuff like that, like, I just, I have, I mean, I had zero inches of what Colby said before then, but, you know, I just kind of ignored it. That's just, I just, I don't have, I don't have interest in that, man. Like you said, I don't, I don't, if I never saw Colby fight again, I'd be okay with it. Because if Colby doesn't fight again, I don't hear him.

That, yeah, man, I don't know where, someone like him or, you know, at least I think Dracus was kind of playing, you know, Sean's game. Like, Sean puts some motherfuckers down, too. He does. Drake is, I feel like he found a hole and just jumped through it, right? Because Sean's not going to let you, he's not going to leave a lot of openings for you to, you know, talk shit about him, right? Like, he's pretty good about that.

But Dracus, I feel like he just found a hole and jumped at it. Colby, on the other hand, you know, he just pulled it out. Like, like you said, it's just disgusting, man. Like, why the fuck would you say some shit like at, bro? Like, like, you, you know, you're not getting in his head. You know what I mean? Like, if all. the other shit you say like that's not going to change the fight bro you or and if it does like if

you if somehow because you talked about his murdered dad if that won you the fight like is that something to be proud of yeah not that it would right like it's not going to fucking it's not going to win a single fight for you but like would you be proud of that yeah exactly yeah it's like well and like i said i mean i'm not trying to make light at the situation but sean strickland does say some pretty wild things. And when Sean Strickland is coming out saying you're a piece of shit for saying that, you know you've gone too far. Like,

I'm not trying to make light of it. When Sean Strickland says you've gone too far, you've done something bad because that guy barely has a limit on his own. And when he came out and was like, that's a piece of shit thing to say. I was like, God, man, like, Colby really broke the boundary here because you got Sean Strickland saying he went too far. Right. And Strickland, most of his shit is fun.

You know what I mean? Like he's, because he's just speaking in his mind. And you can, you can tell he's the type of guy, like when he's sitting in the press conference, like he's saying the exact same shit that he's saying in his living room.

Like he's not going out there playing a character. Colby is fucking rehearsing this shit. Get the fuck out of here. Like, like you know he's sitting in his mirror saying this shit to himself. Like, and then forgetting his lines and stuttering. And like, bro, like, if you're going to do it,

you got to you just got to you got to do it well you know and i don't know to me he doesn't do it well like because even like the whole trump thing like making that your identity i don't know like i don't know what that's supposed to do you know like riding another dude's dick i don't i don't know what that's supposed to do for you like whether you're trump or not i don't give a fuck but it's like what what exactly are you trying to do here like you just you're just trying to get in there and suck his dick or something. Well, it's funny you say that because up until the really ugly comment about his dad, somebody asked Leon,

because Leon's British. Like, he doesn't have the same relationship to American politics that, you know, we all do living here. And he's like, he was like, he's like,

I don't get it. He's like, I don't understand how any man can be obsessed with another man that much. He's like, maybe he needs to get a girlfriend or something. And I thought that was a great comeback because Leon's not known for trash talk. But that was a great line because he's like,

maybe he should get a girlfriend. Because it is. It's bizarre. bizarre to wrap your entire identity. Like, it's one thing to make that, like, the way you get some attention when you first come up. But, like, he's not even the, he hasn't been the president, you know, in a few years. He's, yes, he's going to run for president maybe if he's not in jail for all the

felonies he's up for right now or whatever. And again, I'm not placing political judgment. I'm just saying. But it's so, I understand he's, again, he's playing a character. But, dude, is that the character you want to play? He basically, like, he actually said last night. which I thought was hilariously stupid. He said that he mocked Leon Edwards for being from England because he bows to a king.

And I was like, you literally bowed down to Trump walking into the octagon. Got down on his knees and was like shaking Trump's hand. And like, dude, it is, I used to think it was just funny and stupid that he was that. But like now it's gone over to like full on like cult fanaticism, like where he's like, he worships the guy. And that's weird. He's very strange. So like you said, hopefully we just don't have to hear from again.

Hopefully he sees Miles Vidal on the street again, you know, in a dark alley. And they can, you know, actually street fight it out. I got a feeling that Miles Vidal would probably put a good weapon on him in the street. So yeah, hopefully he, and hopefully that ends him. I mean, if he sticks around more, whatever, but it's going to be tough to find good fights for him, I think, right? I mean, like you said, what's he going to do? Is he really going to fight Wonderboy? To be honest, Wonderboy is not a good fight for him either, I don't think.

I think that's a tough fight for him. And I don't think it's the wrong fight either. I don't mind that call out. Like, I think that's a pretty good fight. But I think Wonderboy puts it on him. Boating for Flight 246 to Toronto is delayed 50 minutes. Ugh, what? Sounds like Ojo time.

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I'll tell you that right now. He does not want that fight. Yeah, well, you know, you got to wonder what the UFC wants to do with them, too. Like, do they even want them around? You know, like, I don't think Dana like those little lowball comments that he made. I don't think that, you know, even as Dana's, like, good friends with Trump. And I get the feeling he doesn't even like. that, you know, Colby's not writing.

Like, it just doesn't seem like it doesn't do it for anybody. But maybe he does. I don't really know. But I just, I don't know. I think it's a tough, he's in a really tough situation now, it seems like. I don't know what you do with them. Yeah, he's in that, he's in that weird position where he's still a big enough person, like draw or personality that you can't just put him in there against anybody.

and the top of that division, man, it's not going to get any easier for him. Like, it's not like he's going to get Usman again. Oosman's already beat him twice. He doesn't want to fight Shavkat. We already know that. Like, and, you know, maybe he fights Gilbert Burns down the ride.

I know Gilbert Burns already has a fight, but maybe he fights somebody like that. Or again, Wonderboy, maybe. But, yeah, I mean, his options are limited. And he's not going to get another title shot, you know, so it's like. I wonder, you know, I don't know if they asked Wonderboy about fighting Colby,

but like would he even care to have that fight you know like i don't know where wonder boys at now either you know like i think he's 40 now isn't he he is he is 40 yeah yeah i don't know how many more competitions he's wanting to do so yeah it puts uh you know i think it puts colby in a very tough spot maybe be a good fight for hamzad if he comes back to 170 just trying to get colby killed and send him out packing uh you know homzai is a human like all of us, but, you know, but I think, you know, this is put him in with like Shavkat or Hamzada. I'd love to see it because, you know, those, like when you lose the title contender fight

or when you fight for the title and you lose, like you don't go far back down the rung, right? You're supposed to fight the number five guy, the number three guy, number four guy, and, you know, try to get back up there. kind of like Wonderboy just did even though he hasn't fought for the title for a while but you know he's still fighting these top guys trying to get back so um that's why i think it's hard to say what to do with colby because he's not for him to get back to a title shot is a pretty fucking long road right that's not going to be and he'd have to win three or four fights and basically you know show everybody

that he is the true number one contender yeah he'd have to take out guys like shavkat to do it i don't think he's going to do that. You know what I mean? Like I said, I don't think we'll fight for a title again. He didn't really, I mean, again, I know I always say, don't use the word deserves, but he didn't deserve this one. He didn't earn this one. He had one win over Mazadol two years ago. He didn't earn this. He got this with his name. Well, he got that get out of a jail free card. He ain't getting another one. They're not going to put it, especially after that performance. They're not going to be, oh, yeah, go out beat Wonderboy. You're going to get their title shot. It's not going to happen.

when Dana you know it's hard to imagine where he's at and what to do with him so it'd be interesting to see when Dana says he was really uncomfortable with what was said

and he also says you look slow and old out there he's probably not going to sign you up for a title shot again real soon that's not looking good and when Dana says he's uncomfortable with what you say that's bad I think

because Dana's pretty good about not giving shit what people say you know people can criticize Dana however they want but you got to give it to him for that like he's always let people say whatever the fuck they want to say and rarely does he say anything about what other people say he's like yeah they're fighters you know they say fucked up shit right yeah no i agree and generally speaking i agree with what he said there and i also like i liked his reaction to the whole sean strickland drake's duplice thing he's like you know what i'm to blame for that i

put them next to each other. I should have known better. He's like, I'm to blame. Dude, it's, I mean, listen, is it, I mean, is it the best look that two fighters get into a fight in the middle of a crowd and they're fighting in a month? Is it the best thing? No. Do I think it's the end of the world? No. I do. I love that Strickland's like asking Gilbert Burns and his family if they could move out of the way all politely and they get up and move and then he just fucking dives over and starts punching Drake is like, I, dude, I can't believe. I said this to you privately and I'll say I'm I am becoming a Sean Strickland fan like I really am the dude is so fucking insane I'm starting to like him a little bit like he's so out there and he is that dude

like he lives it man for Trump by 2024 he will not do that I promise you that that will never happen but like he's that dude like he you know what he is he's what colby wants to be he's like he he's what Sean Strickland is what like Sean Strickland is just Sean Strickland he's authentically Sean Strickland. Now, he can be an idiot and say really stupid shit, but that's just Sean Strickland. Like, that's who he is. He's not playing a character. He's Sean, him jumping over the seats to drum, but drink his stupidly. That's Sean Strickland. We would never see Colby do that. Kobe, Mazvedal did that. Mazvedal is the real dude. Mazvedal, I'm not saying you should have jumped him outside a restaurant. I'm not, I'm not

advocating for that. I'm just saying like, that's the real dude. You know what I mean? Like, Kobe would never do some shit like that. Colby would never get into a crowd fight. If we all spoke our mind out loud all the time, like we would say a lot of stupid shit. But Sean Strickland says his mind out loud all the time. That's why we hear this stupid shit. Because that's who we are as human beings.

Most of us, you know, have a thought in our head. And then it goes to this little filter, we get in like 20 thoughts. and we're like, we need to filter this down to like two or three of the intelligent ones. Sean Strickland just says all 20 of them. Yeah, that's just who he is. That's just who he is. Like, when he punches.

Right. Like we would, like, I guarantee there's no one else. If you take a regular guy off the streets and you give him a prize, you get to have a beer with one UFC fighter, they're all going to pick Sean Strickland right now. He's wild. Who else do you want to have a beer with today? Not, I mean, dude, that guy is a, that guy's a trip. Like that dude, like I said, I, yeah, I disagree with a lot of what he says,

but at least he's authentically himself. He's not putting on the character. He's not trying to be someone. He's not. Like, he's what Colby wants to be. Like, he's just, dude, he is who he is. Like, he has no filter and he says what he wants. And does he say stupid stuff?

Absolutely. But am I certain to kind of kind of- I get the feeling, too, that him winning the title, getting all this fame has just magnified all that, too. he wasn't really always like a loud dude like that either but you know build his confidence build his and people start responding to it and he and it feeds that dopamine hit and he's like well I'm just going to do more right like yeah you know what I mean like all those 20 thoughts like he was saying one or two of them and then that you know people react if he's like well I'm gonna say 10 of them

and now it's just all 20 every single thought that comes through his head is coming out and like I said bro, if you want to have a good time at a party, bring Sean Strickland. It'll be a party for sure. Whether you're bringing up a riot or otherwise, it'll be a party for sure. That's 100% true. Real quick, for you get off the Welterway situation,

of course, Shavkat went on and got the win over Wonderboy. Bilal Muhammad, of course, seems like he's the guy. Who gets the title shot? Is it Below or Shavkat? Well, you know that Bilal deserves it, right? That's the word, man. And he's been patiently fighting and waiting at the same time, right? So personally, I think we all pretty much, everybody, you know, deep in the sport wants to see Belaw get it.

The only problem with that, right, is they did fight. And Leon was piecing him up easy before the eye poke. I mean, it wasn't hard for him at all. Like, we've seen who the better fighter was that day. Not that that'll happen again. Who knows? But I think Shafcott needs one more fight personally. I don't think Wonderboy at this point in his career.

I think he was ranked number six. But just the feeling that I get is that that's not worth it. The way he beat him is more so than actually beating Wonderboy is the way it feels to me. Um, yeah, that's where I'm at on it. Yeah, I throw it out as an option just to make sure what you're going to say, but I'm, I think it's been pretty clear. I'm the Below guy. Like, good, but I think Shavkat's a monster, but he needs one more. I think beating Wonderboy is impressive, but again, that's not a, that's a win that Below has on his record, too.

And while he didn't finish Wonderboy, he beat him 3026. It wasn't like it was a close fight. Like, he beat down Wonderboy. He took him down and absolutely mauled him for three rounds. He didn't finish him, but it wasn't that much different from what Shavkat did. He just didn't finish him. And he did it three years ago when Wonderboy was maybe 37 versus 40. And also after he lost to Leon, which again, he took on seven days notice or whatever, 10 days notice.

That was after that is when he beat Wonderboy, when he beat Maya, when he beat Sean Brady, when he beat Gilbert Burns. That's who he's beat since then. So I think Bilau's a better fighter than when he fought Leon on 10 days notice or whatever. That's the fight. Like, I get it. I understand Leon saying, you know, I want the biggest fights. I want guys to earn it. Dude, Bilau has earned it, okay?

He got, he has four wins over top, current top 10 fighters. Colby has zero. Colby has no wins over anyone in the current UFC roster right now, except for like, Desaños. How many does Leon have over the current? Uh, he has, well, I mean, he has, obviously has the wins over Usman. And he has now, whatever Colby, those are. three right there his last three fights.

Yeah, and Belal, too. Yeah, so I mean, Belal's the guy. You got to give it. I understand, you know, you want to, you know, I mean, listen, and Leon's the champ. He's got, he can say whatever he wants, but it's Balau. You got to give him the title shot. I don't care that it's not the biggest fight in the world.

I don't care if it's going to sell interviews. You got to give the guy the shot. He's on a 10 fight unbeaten streak. He's beaten three. He's beating four top 10 guys in a row, and all of them dominantly. He knocked out Sean Brady, who he just saw Sean Brady, what he did to Kelvin Gasselm. Sean Brady's legit. He dominated Gilbert Burns,

dominated Wonderboy. Come on. Give the guy a shot. I know you don't want to, and no one wants seems to, but he deserves it. He absolutely deserves this. And maybe Leon will go out there

and lay waste to him, and he'll finish when he started that first fight. Good. Let him do it. Like, that's the whole point of having fights. Right. And I have to wonder, Damon, if that is a bigger fight over an Abu Dhabi, right, with the British,

Leon and what is what is below Palestinian Palestinian originally I wonder if that's a bigger fight over there I mean I don't I think it would be I think it could be I mean absolutely I think it could be I mean

I just again I don't But again I don't even care like I don't care If it's better not like you know Yeah that can play into it right for like Or you I know Dana said like Do it in England well if Leon's the A side in England then it doesn't matter who he fights. Let him fight Bilau in England.

Like, I'm sure. Bala was going to go to England to fight Hamza. That was going to be a fight for him last year. And then they switched it around and he ended up fighting somebody else. But he was going to do that there. I know Bala would travel to London to fight Leon. Like, I know he would have no problem with that. So let Leon headline a card in London.

Him and Tom Aspinall could fight in England. They don't need a great B-side. They're huge stars in England. Like, the people in England are going to go pay to see them because they're British stars. doesn't matter if they're fighting Bala Muhammad, so do it there. Yep, good call. Yeah. Yeah, like I said, over there somewhere. Like, I would do either one of them, Abu Dhabi or in the UK somewhere.

Let's may happen. Like, Balal has done it over and over again. He's been waiting. He's proved himself. It's time to put him in there. And he hasn't, listen, he beat Gilbert Burns in May, but he hasn't been sitting around. When they said, you didn't have enough, go fight Sean Brady and Abu Dhabi. Okay, he knocked out Sean Brady.

Still not enough. Go fight Gilbert Burns, okay? Fought and beat Gilbert Burns. Like, he's not complained. He's not said, I, you know, I'm going to sit away for two years and give me what I, you know, he's just, he's patiently gone out there and beating everyone to put in. There's no one for him to fight. Like, who's he going to fight now? Like, when you look at the rankings, like, I mean, I guess technically you can fight Usman, but what sense would that make, considering Leon's already beat Usman twice?

And if Usman pulls off a win, they're not going to do a third one or a fourth one, technically. He's wrong thinking about going up to 85 anyway. Exactly. So, like, there's the other thing. Like, who's he going to fight? Like, you know what I mean? Also, I went through this out there. Shabkat said after the fight that he had a pretty serious ankle injury going into the fight that almost made him pull out.

And it sounds like you might need to have surgery. If he has to have ankle surgery, he's probably going to be gone for six or eight months anyway. It's like he ain't going to fight for the title right away anyhow. So, dude, just give Bilal the shot. Let's just stop fucking around. Give the guy his title shot. Like, let him go out. And if he loses, he loses.

But let him have the night. Yes, that's exactly it. It's time, man. It's time for Blal to have a shot. We're going to lobby for it. We'll tweet about it, talk about it. We'll see if it happens. It's got to happen.

I just can't admit, like, what else are they even going to do with the law? Yeah, like what else is they even to do with him? He's put it on everybody. Anybody else had the resume he asked to get a title shot. If you took away the name and just looked at his last four wins, and how he beat them, like, dominated Vicente Lucke, dominated, dominated Wonderboy, dominated and finished Sean Brady,

dominate Gilly. If you just put those four names without who it is, you'd be like, God, man, that guy deserves a title shot. Like, holy shit, look what he's done. There's just, like, a weird people don't like Bilau for some reason, so they're just like, I don't want to see him in there, or because, you know, he's not, like, the most dominant finisher or whatever, but, again, he's earned it, man.

Give him a shot. Like, give him a shot. Shafcat, I agree. he's like the most boring exciting fighter ever. It seems like there's so much going on but nothing happens.

And I like, I like Shavkat. He's a great fighter, man. He is. He is. And I like Shavkat, but I think he's got to get one more.

I don't know the beating Wonderboy is the way that that's going to guarantee you Italian. If that's the case, if Balal should have gotten to Tidal, so he already beat Wonderboy. He did it two years ago. So. Right.

Yeah. And, you know, we always talk about it more objectively. So we'll have to just see what happens, you know, forget about the deserve shit, like we always say. Yeah. So we talked about Shabcat. We talked about that. Obviously, Alessandre Pantosia went out and defended his belt.

Pretty dominant performance against Brandon Royval. Good fight for him. We're going to wait and see what's next for him. Looks like probably the winner of Brandon Moreno and Amir Albaughzi. That's in February. That's a good fight. But I want to ask about the other big story coming out of UFC 296, which is Tony Ferguson. Tony Ferguson goes out and loses to Patty Pimblet.

pretty lopsided fight by all measure almost got finished in round one then ends up losing pretty dominantly in rounds two and three credit to Padley or credit for Patty doing a good job he didn't finish him but he put it on pretty good man I love Tony Ferguson

I Tony is like he's an it's still he is the he is part of the greatest what if in this sports history because we never got to see him fight Habib seven losses in a row none of them have been particularly close and four knockouts or submissions during that run.

You know, now he's got David Gagins in his corner and shit. Like, I'm just like, dude, and I, David Gagins is a monster. I don't know that's the guy you want coaching it. You want him get you ready for cardio? Sure, you want him to teach you in the corner. That might be a touch much. Dude, I hate it, man.

I hate when this happens. But it feels so reminiscent of BJ Penn. At the end, you know, when BJ was just going out there and just, he just did not look like he had it anymore. He was just too tough for his own good. Like, he was just getting wood. way laid on. And it's just,

it's getting uncomfortable. Like, I love Tony, man. I just don't want to see him take any more damage. Yeah, I just feel like the difference,

though, was BJ Penn needed David Gagins. Right? That would have done him a lot of good to stick through a David Gagin's program because, like the knock on BJP is always unmotivated, lazy. Yeah.

Right. You know, a Hawaii stoner just kind of, you know, going through the motions, wants to win because he's just a bad motherfucker. but Tony's like putting in the work, right? He's put in the time.

We see, you know, he's grinding. When you're doing David Goggins Hell Week, like, yeah, you put in the time, you put in the work. I just said, when you look at the resume of people that he's lost to, it's nothing to be ashamed of, right? Like, these are killers. But now losing to Patty, now it opens the question, well, is maybe Patty's better than we think he is?

or was you know is Tony on his last leg he should already be out you know what I mean because it really didn't answer a lot of questions to me it didn't I said that it didn't answer the questions that I had at least it didn't tell me anything I didn't already think about patty pimble to be honest like you know I didn't honestly here's what I learned is that my suspicion about Tony was correct which is he's just not there anymore. Like Tony losing to Justin Gaichi the way he did in a

back and forth war the way he did that, there's no problem with that. I feel like that fight was the one the jammer fight, just took it out of him, man. I think it was Gaichie. I think that I think he was never the same after that fight. But my point

is, is that like, and even when he got dominated by B'Neil and Oliver, he got taken down and beat on the ground. But he didn't get beat up. He just got taken down and really beat up on the ground in like in terms of like submissions and things like that. But losing, I'm not this, I want to say this. I'm not saying like it's, but like five years ago, if Tony had lost to Bobby Green, we would have said that's not a bad loss because Bobby Green's a hell of a fighter. But getting submitted the way he did against Bobby

Green, that would have been surprising, right? Like you wouldn't expect Tony Ferguson to get submitted by Bobby Green. And you wouldn't expect. him to go out there and just absolutely like Tony comes from wrestling and he got taken down at will by Patty Pimbleau who is not a wrestler like it's just not there anymore man and like I'm to the point now where it's getting uncomfortable like I just don't want to see the guy not be able to play with his kids five years from now because his faculties are gone because he's just taking too much damage like he got beat up last night like he got beat up and I don't want to see it again man Like I don't want to see him go out there against anybody else.

Like I don't really like and who would you put him in there again? Like who would realistically pick Tony Ferguson to win? You know? Like you can't book fights not having at least some people thinking a guy's got a shot. Yeah. What a situation? It sucks, man. You know, you said one of the biggest one ifs, man, where he tears his knee out for the,

trying to fight Kabib for the fourth time tripping over a fucking wire. And it's just been downhill ever since, man. but I feel like Gagie took it out of him. You're on point there, man. Like the way that he punched his face and just knocked his head around, scrambled some eggs in there, man. And like I said, I just, I can't figure out if it's, you know, you know, Tony, like he looked like the normal Tony.

Yeah. You know, like it's not like he doesn't look like really to me. I don't know. I was watching it. as I was driving, so I didn't get to watch it that close, but he wasn't looking, like, slower or like his, like he's always been an awkward, like not really fast guy. So it makes me wonder, like, maybe Patty's better than gave him credit for.

I think. And I hate saying that because I don't feel like that's the truth. But I have to wonder if he is. And if he is, you know, is Tony still better than we think he. It's like, are both of these guys just better than we're giving them credit for? right like maybe you know tony still has some fights he can win and maybe patty just was the better man that night and i'm just kind of i'm like i said i just didn't answer all my my questions yeah i you know you're not totally wrong in that but i just again we have a little bit more of a body

of work of what tony's done recently for me to start thinking like i just think like maybe his reaction time is just off like he's not as quick like that was one of the things he always did so well surprising his opponents and reacting really well to what they were doing and making them pay for, grab on the dars chokes, things like that. It just seems like his reaction time is awful. He's firing a second behind where he used to fire. And it may not just come out glaringly in the fights, but it costs him over and over again right now.

Like, again, five years ago, I don't think Tony Ferguson gets submitted by Bobby Green. Now, losing to Bobby Green is certainly not a bad loss. Bobby Green is a veteran who's been around forever. He's a good fighter. You get knocked out by Bobby Green. I'm not totally shocked. getting submitted, being the first guy to ever get submitted in the EOC by Bobby Green, and it's Tony Ferguson, who's known as a great grappler, that's surprising to me.

Like, that's where I'm kind of like, I just think his reaction time is not what it once was. And I think that's like he didn't look slow last night, but his reaction to things was slower. Like, you could tell, like, he was a second behind everything that Patty was doing, you know? And I just, I agree. Like, maybe Patty's better than I gave him credit for. I don't think Patty's the top 15 guy, if I'm being honest. I still don't believe that. But I just, dude, and also, like I said, man, at what point do we say enough to enough?

Like, seven losses in a row? How many chances? Like, is it going to be smart for the UFC to say, let's give him one more and he gets eight losses in a row? Like, no one, like, there's got to be a time when you're just going to say, enough's enough. Like, we can't, like, I love Tony as much as anybody. And I don't wish anything bad for Tony. But if I'm the UFC and I'm a business, like at what point do I? I just like, does the crowd tune out?

And people start wondering, like, am I just being a sadist for throwing this guy out there? Like, you know, I'm doing it. In my head, I'm doing it because, like, I think Tony's still got something left, man. I think he can still pull it off. And then he goes out there and gets his headbeat in. And now you look like a, you look like a piece of shit for throwing him out there for an eighth straight loss. You know, I don't know if this could happen or not. But you know what I'd like to see him do is like some of these fight past invitational grappling terms.

tournaments, maybe, you know, something like that. Like, let's see if he's still got it without taking punches to the head. Yeah. Maybe. Yeah, yeah. I just love to see him do something else, you know, not just be risking his brain out there. Because that's, I think, probably the biggest problem with all these fights other than the Bobby Green. Maybe I'm not remembering all of them either.

but I just remember so many of these fights him just getting beat the hell up. Yeah. And obviously that's not good for you, right? Like, I don't think we have to debate that. So, especially like Chandler and Gagie, right? They beat the fucking hell out of Tony Ferguson, man. Yeah.

Been knocked out how many times now? Yeah, I mean, he's not been knocked out three, two of his last, let's see, got knocked out by Gage, you got knocked out by Chandler. He got submitted by Diaz and he got submitted by Bobby Green and then he just got beat on by Patty. You know, and it just, like I said, I just, it's one of those things where, like, I've only said this about a couple of guys in their career. Like, I remember I said this about Ken Shamrock years ago when Ken Shamrock was talking about coming back and fighting. I'm like, I don't have interest because I just don't want to see a guy get brain damage for the sake of entertainment at that point.

Like, it's just not fun because he wasn't, he wasn't the Ken Shamrock fighting in UFC one and two. Like he wasn't that dude wouldn't even remotely close to that guy anymore. And Tony was seven losses and as much damage as he's taken. I just, I wouldn't feel right throwing him out there again and saying, well, let's just see what happened. And also, listen, I understand, like, the UFC wants to show loyalty to that guy because he stepped up so many times when they needed him. Even the Gaichi fight. Like, that was supposed to be Khab. Couldn't get in the country because the whole travel restrictions and everything.

So it ended up being Gaichi. He got his brains beat in in in a fucking crazy war. and he was never the same again and they've continued to give him chance after chance after chance after chance at some point somebody in the UFC's got to be like, we just can't throw this guy out there again, man. It's just not good for business to have a guy

because that's all you can talk about. Like he goes out there one more fight next year. Even if you say it's his retirement fight, like is it good for business that you're throwing a guy out there and say, we're going to let him fight one last time, maybe he gets his head out, maybe he gets Josh Emmett, like where he goes out there and just absolutely gets laid out cold.

Are you going to feel good about yourself and you threw that guy out there to do that? Yeah, I don't want to see that. Like, actually, you know, like a Bryce Mitchell would be like a good matchup for him, you know, someone like that. But, you know, certainly everybody, the UFC's dangerous. But, you know, someone that's not just going to beat his brains in, you know? I joked last night. I said that they should put him in there with Ryan Hall because Ryan Hall was the guy who beat BJ.

Like, he'll hooked him. You know what I mean? Like, you're not really in that kind of danger, like physical danger like that. But I just, dude, at some point, like I said, man, I love Tony. and I understand, you know, he's done a lot of good things in the sport, but like I just, if I'm the UFC, man,

I don't know how you can throw him back out there unless you give him that kind of fight. Like, I just, none of it. And even that, like, we saw it happen with BJ. Like, BJ got hill hooked by Ryan Hall. Like, you know, that was BJ. BJ was a fucking prodigy of bejilloing Jitsu. And he got hill hooked in like 30 seconds by Ryan Hall.

Yeah, Jitsu evolves too. It's crazy, right? Yeah. But, yeah, like, there's still matchups that they're like, that's a great idea. Ryan Hall, I think, would be a perfect fight for him. That way, you know, you're still in there. Whether it's retirement fight or not, it's in there without a ton of risk of,

I mean, there's always a risk of, you know, getting your face beat in. But, you know, it's not like a Josh in it, right? Where, you know, where the guy's game playing is to come out and break your head open. So, yeah, you know, I think there's still matchups out there for him if he wants to keep doing it. and I would just I'd love to see him fight somebody that the right matchup where he can get his confidence back which it doesn't sound like he's lost his confidence but well and the thing is I thought Patty was that though I thought Patty would be the one you know what and it didn't that's what that's why I'm saying like I'm okay if I don't see Tony fight again because Patty on paper should have been like a lower down the wrong guy

who is you know decent but not I still don't I'm not sold on Patty Pimble being a really good fighter. Like, I don't think he's a top 15 guy. He's throwing him in there with Jalen Turner or Dan Hooker and those guys. He's going to get absolutely walloped, in my opinion. It's a fight so anything can happen. But if I'm betting, I would bet it's not going to end well for him in those fights. Well, I got to imagine he's going to start fighting top 15, top 20 guys now. So we're going to find out.

I mean, yeah, and I don't think it's going to end well for him, if I'm being honest. Like, could he win a couple here and there? Sure. But, dude, like, put him in there with Hanato Moikana. That's not going to end well for Patty Pimble. like Jalen Turner Grant Dawson I don't mean there was Grant Dawson

Grand Dawson's primarily a grabbillus how he does against Grant fucking Dawson I don't think it's going to end well for Patty Pimble if I'm being honest like That's a great matchup That's a great call right there actually Or Dan Hooker I think is another great one You know just

You're in the UFC Like you got to you got to fight Who's in front of you And you gotta be ready to fight Sink or swim right Like there's no you don't get to you know But that's the problem with the guy like Tony is like, you know, I think we're kind of seeing him sinking right now, and I don't know there's

a lot of swim left in him. But yeah, Patty, I agree. And dude, I wouldn't like his chances against Dan Hooker. Dan Hooker's a fucking savage. Like, I don't like that idea for him at all. But that's the sport. Like, we got to see. And Patty's 28.

He's, you know, he's 16 fights in his career. He's not Tony Ferguson, you know, on a seven-fight losing streak and all that kind of stuff. And I agree with you. I said this years ago when Carlos Konda fought Robbie Lawler, I said that they were never the same guys after that fight. Like, they were never the same dudes after they fought each other that night. Um, that was right after you fought Robbie. Like, you fought Robbie.

Then he fought Conn. I was like, dude, that's just a bad one-two combo. Like, holy shit. Like, the damage you take in a Matt Brown fight and go right into a fucking Carlos Conno fight. Holy shit. And he just never, and Carlos was never the same again either.

Like, Carlos just never quite looked him, like he never fought the same way again. You know, like he still had some wins in there, but he just never fought the same way. way again and uh i think that was what happened with gaichi like i just think gaici just man that fucking guy just he just took it out of a man and i just think he just like he knocked a couple he knocked a couple of brain cells loose and i just don't think you're ever the same well i'm i'm gonna see what happens with patty now because he's uh yeah he's got a big enough name like he's got a fight a name now right like he's got that name you know he like he's a on the main of card there's not other i can't think of any other tony ferguson's in the division

right where where it's a big name guy maybe on a losing streak or something on his way out that's not necessarily you know performing to his best like he's going to have he's going to and he just beat the tony ferguson right so he's got a he's got to fight a name now let me throw out some names at you because this is the bottom of the ufc's rankings for top 15 tell me if any of these fights make sense and or you would pick them to beat you would pick patty pimble to beat them Drew Dober no I wouldn't pick Patty to beat Drew Dover I would not at all Anything can happen I understand that but I would not pick him to beat Drew Dover and I know Drew's already got a fight book but just aren't out there Bobby Green don't think he beats

Bobby Green I just I think that's the right fight though You think Bobby Green's the one yeah because you know Bobby coming off a loss still a big name you know particularly you know when you think when you talk about guys like Patty I think you know those guys like him

you're always also looking at the buildup to the fight like he's going to give him the right buildup and Bobby's a test right he's a long time veteran been around for a long time he is beatable right like we know like he can be beat he's got the losses

and if Patty can't get through him, then, you know, he goes back down, right? But that's the right fight. Yeah, I think that's the one that would actually kind of make sense. I mean, Moikano's already matched up with Dover. They're fighting each other. Benoit Saint-Dinie. Holy shit, you don't want to throw anybody into that guy right now. That guy's fucking blowing people up left and right.

DeSanyos has a fight. Jalen Turner, Hooker. He's not ready for that level yet. Fizim was opposite. And all those guys that got hooker's the only one of the one I can think of because, like, you don't want to put Patty in there with someone that's surgeon, you know, someone on the rise. Or, you know, I mean, I'm talking, you know, as if I'm Patty's manager here. Like, I'm not going to put him in there with a guy like Drew Dober that you know, like it's just a bad match. Like, you're not taking him down, most likely.

Like, he's probably going to pop you really fucking hard. Like, he's way too tough for you. There's, you know, a lot of issues there. like maybe a Dan hooker because again like like like Dan is beatable on the ground you know we know like Dan's probably going to fuck him up on the feet and he's going to be hard to take down but you know you're in the UFC like everybody's going to be hard but those are those are the only two those are the two right matchups that I can think of yeah Bobby green might be the one that could be interesting but even that I don't know that I'd really favor him necessarily I think he's got a

better shot against Bobby Green. He would favor him, but, you know, he's got to, he's got to step up in competition, right? Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. And, you know, right now. Like after you beat Tony Ferguson, like, you know, regardless of his six losses previously, like, it's still Tony Ferguson. Like, you beat a big name.

You beat somebody that's been proven. You know, maybe he's on a bad streak now, but you beat one of the guys, right? Like, you beat one of the fucking. the guys in there. So, you know, you got to beat another one now. You can't, the only way now is up. Let me give me the other one that I'll throw out there.

I didn't realize he dropped out of the top. He's not in the top 15 now, so it makes perfect sense. I said earlier, Grant Dawson. Yeah, I think that's a great matchup too. Grant is coming off a loss. Obviously, disappointing loss to Bobby Green. Grant is primarily a grappler. That's what Patty likes to do.

Let's see how he does against a high-level grapple like that. because Grant's not known as like a super dominant wrestler. He's more of just more of a grappler than a wrestler. He takes people down, but he's not like, you know, he's not Bo Nickel. He's coming off a tough loss to Bobby Green, got knocked out in a minute, whatever, you know what I mean? Like he's coming off a tough loss. Patty's a big name. The only tough thing there is he doesn't have the name.

Like, you know what I mean? The name value. But Patty's the name. Like Paddy's the name now. Fair. You know? Throw him on there. Those are definitely the matchups out there, right?

Like Bobby Green, Dan Hooker and Grand Austin. I'm booking it for you. Let's just do it right now. It's going to be, I know Jalton O'Made is fighting Curtis Blades. So that's coming up in, I think, February or whatever. Maybe you do this card in England. You do Leon against Blal. You do Tom Aspenall against somebody.

I don't know who. And you do Patty against Grant Dawson. Then he doesn't really need to be the name. He's like the third fight on a pay-per-view. Easy. Easy. You should be the UFC matchmaker, bro. Tell Sean Shelby, I'm taking his job because that's some shit right there.

I just come up to the whole card right now. So, yeah. I can't imagine having a job, though, dealing with all the fighters and they all want some different managers. Fuck, bro. What a job, huh? Yeah, dude, that's so crazy. Yeah, you're trying to matchmake. This episode is brought to you by Peloton.

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Yes, beautiful fight, man. That's a very interesting fight. That's an interesting one. That's an interesting one. They're giving him a tough fight on his day one. I like, I'm not, I've never been totally sold an MVP. And I think a lot of it is Bellator's fault because they kept matching him up with under, like, overmatched opponents. They kept giving him fights he could win.

And then when he fought the higher level of competition, he was always kind of like, okay like he beat paul daily but it was not a good fight when he beat when he beat douglas lemma it was like all right he kind of beat douglas lemma he lost a really boring fight to logan storely i don't know man like we'll see and it's feast for famine in the uc man there's no third direction like you got to survive they're not going to give you fucking you know they're not going to give you some fucking three and two fighter to beat your to beat their ass and get a highlight reel off of they're going to make you fight you know they're going to make you fight kevin holland on day and Kevin Holland is not an easy out for anybody.

Yeah. That's just a great matchup all around. And I'm interested to see how Kevin Holland handles his fight because MVP's pretty similar to Wonderboy in a lot of ways. You know, probably not quite as good as Wonderboy, but he decided to stand with Wonderboy the whole time. You know, got to imagine he could probably take either one of these guys down and probably beat him up pretty good on the ground or submit him.

So I'm really interested on how he approaches this fight because, you know, Wonderboy put it on him pretty good, but he held to his word, he stood with him. Let's see if he does the same thing with MVP. Don't do that with MVP. Let me just tell you ahead of time.

Don't do that. Because I'm not saying he would have beat Wonderboy. I'm not saying he would have won that fight, but he took him down and basically just let him back up. Don't do that shit. It's mixed martial arts. This gentleman in agreement bullshit. fucking MMA go out and fight MMA you're not fight if you want to fight kickboxing go to glory if you want to just fight striking go to karate combat or whatever the fuck

this whole gentleman's agreement stuff don't do that shit like it's m m m m if you take him down that's part of the sport he can't get up that's why i always rarely against stand-ups i don't think there should ever be a stand-up and mixed martial arts if you can't get up that's your fault that's your fault you know i agree i agree a hundred percent so please don't do that kevin I like Kevin Holland. Please don't do that. That's dumb shit. Like, don't do that.

Like, go out and win the way you can win. And if you can take down MVP and tap him out or Darson or whatever it is you're going to do, do it. Don't fuck around and be like, oh, I don't want to take him down because we made a gentleman's wet bullshit. Just beat him. It's M. Like, dude, like, Matt, you are a striker by nature. But guess what? You've got a lot of submissions on your record.

You got takedowns. You got wrestling. You are a mixed martial arts. Do you like striking the most? Yes. but can you go out there and out wrestle somebody if you have to? Can you go out there and submit somebody? Absolutely you can.

It's not even necessarily, for me personally, it's not even necessarily if I have to. Like you said, it's mixed martial arts. If that option is the most readily available option, I'm stupid to not take it. Like, do you regret when you tapped out, what's, why am I forgetting his name? The kid you fought at UFC was at 196, fucking Tim Means. You guillotine Tim Means. you regret that because you didn't knock him out? No, you won.

You tapped him out. Like, that's like, are you going to say her like, man, I wish I just didn't trade and not actually going for some of it. I tapped him out after I had it. It's interesting you brought up that one because I tapped him out after I had him rocked and I probably could have knocked him out. Now I'd have the K.O. record. So I actually had watched that and been like, damn, I should have just not went for that

guillotine. But you know what I'm saying, though, right? Like, you know, like, you won. I thought you were going to bring up when I fought one. boy right and you know my game plan actually wasn't necessarily just to take him down like i stood with them and i actually just watched that fight the other day i stood with them a lot in the fight but like he was literally completely available for the takedown so it's like you know jo and uh dc didn't seem to want to mention it the other day when they were talking during the the commentary there but

you know so i'll bring it up my damn self here. You know, he was just, it's just wide open. So it's like, why not? Yeah.

You know the one place where Wonderboy wants to be? And if he's giving you the option to just take him down where he has no chance, why would you not put him in that world? Like, you know,

like I actually rewatched, because we had that conversation a while ago about Wonderboy and you said you were the guy who kind of wrote the blueprint on Wonderboy. And I hadn't watched that fight in a lot of years.

I went back and rewatch it. I was like, it wasn't just takedowns. You were pressuring him. You were beating him up on defeat you were just not you were doing the one thing you were taking away his best weapon which is distance and control you never allowed him to do that and then you also did take did take downs but it's not it wasn't just about the wrestling but again you weren't just standing on the outside saying let's have a

gentleman's agreement that we're going to have a kickboxing match like that's not the fight you're it's an m-ma fight you were not there for that then if i if i remember right there's only one take down where i shot in and took him down the other ones were from sweeps yeah which is a moitai technique yeah so kevin holland don't have a gentleman's agree with michael venom page just go out there beat him i don't care what you do to beat him just don't do that shit uh but that's a good fight that's a good one and i'm i'm interested to see what MVP does in the ufc i mentioned earlier even gary taking on uh jeff neal that's a good fight song you dong and peter yawn that's a hell of a good fight oh they booked that okay they booked it's a really good fight

Yeah, that's a great fight. So that's going to be a lot of fun. So, yeah, so big fights coming up in March, U.S.C. 299. So that's going to be a good one. And we mentioned earlier in the show, I'm not going to spend a whole lot of time on it. We've seen a lot of scary knockouts in this sport. Has there been a scarier knockout in recent history than what Josh Emmett did to Bryce Mitchell? When you knock a dude down, he's literally twitching.

It looks like he's convulsing. Like, thankfully Bryce is okay. But that was a terrifying knockout. Yeah, that really was, man. I think Bryce came in on short notice too, right? Yeah. It pops to him, man. And I watched his Instagram video afterward.

You know, he's respectful about it. He's a great kid. You know, as nutty as he is, you know, he's a great guy. You know, he's got a great heart on him, man. And he's just a good guy all around. So, you know, much respect to him. But God damn, you cannot let Josh Emmett do that. That's the one thing you cannot let Josh Emmett do is sit down on his shot.

swing hard because he's going to hit you and it's going to fucking hurt. I always remember when he knocked out Michael Johnson when he hit him with that one and fucking Johnson went flat like a board. Do you remember that one? Plunched him and Michael Johnson literally just went stiff. Dude, that guy has fucking fight changing power. Like you do not want to stand in front of that guy let him hit you because if he just connects one good clean punch, you're going to go down. Man, that was one of the scariest knockouts I can remember happening because like

when he hit him, he crumpled. And then he just started twitching and like that's fucking terrifying. Yeah. Yeah. That's exactly. You know, I hate seeing it happen to Bryce Mitchell, man, especially coming on a short notice like that. So. But, you know, that's part of the game, bro.

We fucking get through it, man. We come back and do it again. Yeah. And I know, I know Josh needed that when I talked to before the fight. He was off two losses. You had the loss to you a year, had the loss to Ilya, not bad losses. but no one wants to lose three in a row, you know what I mean? And he needed that.

And, you know, unfortunately, Bryce was the sacrificial lamb, so to speak, for what happens. Because Bryce is a damn good fighter, and credit to him for taking that on short notice. But, man, that was, that was like, I remember watching when he hit him. I was like, I literally was watching the fight. And I was like, God damn. I was like, Jesus Christ, man. Like, that was a, I mean, I rewatched. Did you hear the sound of that one when it hit?

It was like a baseball, like hitting a bat. It was, oh, it was nasty. Yeah, and that's a risk you take him, especially when you come in on short notice like that. You know, it happened to me once where I fought him in Miguel Beza. You know, it was kind of short notice, kind of wasn't, but whatever. The, you know, when you step in on short notice, I can, like, it's either going to be really awesome or it's really going to suck most of the time. That's just the nature of the beast, man. So, you know, I got, I don't know.

look totally prepared to me, you know, in my opinion. But he didn't, he didn't, and also, and I also think this kind of goes back to the Leon Colby conversation. Like, I think Josh actually comes from a wrestling background. Like, that's actually his background, his wrestling. He just doesn't use it a lot. But you wonder if maybe Bryce was a little hesitant to shoot on him right away. Like, maybe he wanted to wait a little bit, work him out a little bit before trying to shoot and get a takedown. And he just never got the chance. Like, you know, it stepped in and knocked him out. But you wonder if, like, maybe he was trying to, like, feel him out a little bit before

just shooting in naked for a take-down. You know what I mean? And never had the time to do that because Emmett knocked him out. Yeah. When you're fighting a guy that good, again, it's so hard on short notice, you know, unless you're like already that, I don't know, like, like we're coming on short notice, like, fighting a guy like, yeah, I mean, like I said, that's the risk you're taking.

Like, so you need to be strategic with how you go up against a guy, like how you're going to set up that shot and how you got to get in the rounds, man. And it looked to me, you know, even though it was a short fight, it looked like Bryce just wasn't, just wasn't prepared, right, mentally or physically. Yeah, and listen, you could be as mentally prepared as you want to be. You could be obviously on top of your game and Emmett can still fucking knock your block off because that's just who he is.

You know what I mean? I read Casey O'Neill fought on the prelims and she lost to Arianna Lipskin. And I read her statement today on Instagram. And she's like, I trained, had a great training camp, felt better than ever. she hit me early in the first round and I was I got fucked up like I was just out of it after that like she clipped me really good and I just never could get my compote I just never could quite get back from that that's fighting man like that's the reality like Bryce Mitchell got to take in this fight on eight weeks notice you just never know dude that's the danger of the sport you know what I mean like that's the reality of sport man like he I appreciate like she said I had the best camp in my life so prepared so ready got caught completely fucked up everything else yeah that's right I'm not making excuse for Bryce or anything, but like you said, you've said it before. Like when you sound that down the line,

there's no more excuses. Whether you're short notice, you know, 24 hours, whatever it is, the excuses are out the window. But that's just my observation. No, I agree. No, I agree with you. I 100% agree with you.

It looked kind of like, but I also wonder, like, I think part of it was just like being wary of like power and wrestling, like trying to, how he approached it. And then, dude, just fucking, you know. Yeah, I'm wondering. I have no idea on this

But I wonder if I haven't Being on short notice Maybe his weight cut was a little tougher And maybe that is why the knockout hurt A little worse Or maybe the convulsions I don't have no science on that or anything

But That was the kind of first thing That went through my mind When I've seen it Yeah no it's just dude that was scary Like when he's laying there twitching and shit Like dude that's I remember I remember who it was

I think it was Robbie no it was Robbie Lawler Remember when Robbie Lawler knocked out Matt Lindland and Strikeforce and Matt fell and Matt's toes were curled like he was like clenching his fists and toes it was like the creepiest knockout because Matt got flattened and his toes are all curled up he's just laying there on the floor I thought you were going to say when he knocked out Melvin Mannhoff that one's I don't remember his feet being curled up or any convulsions or anything but that was like I felt Robbie's punch

Like he pretty hard a couple times. But the way that he like just winged that motherfucker from left field with everything that he had just almost like he just knew it was going to land and didn't have to look at or anything. Like that thing would have knocked out a fucking horse, man. Seriously. Yeah, Robbie Lawler, man, that fucker, when he hit you hard, when he hit you clean, dude, there was no. I mean, he knocked out middle weights. He would have knocked out light heavy weights. I think he had a chance.

Like he's just dude, you, you could not let that dude laying clean on you or he'll knock you in the middle of next month. Yeah, dude, he laid and clean on me a few times. But, you know, I was fortunate that I was fighting well enough that I, he wasn't able to sit down and wing that motherfucker like he likes to, you know, like. But I felt a lot of the short shots and the, you know, little quick shots. And yeah, that that dude has a has some wild power in his fists. Well, to your credit, the guy with the second most knockouts in UFC history and potentially tying and beating that record eventually. You also, that's something I know Dana White said about you after the Court McGee fight. He's like, when you have that kind of power, that one-punch power, like, that is just so hard to combat sometimes.

Like, you're a guy who has that too. Like, you have, you, you, yes, you can put, fight, you can put combinations together and knock somebody out. But you also have that one, like, not everyone has one-punch knockout power. And that's okay, by the way. Let me be clear about that. Like, not everyone's going to be able to land perfectly one shot and put it away. That's okay. You are one of those guys, though, where you can land one punch and the fucker will just go out.

Yeah. You know, there's, well, for me personally, you know, there's more to it. You know, I don't have the type power like Robbie Law. He has more power than me. I can say that right now. Like, he's the type of guy or Derek Lewis either, you know, where those kind of guys, they don't necessarily have to be so set to to tap into that power whereas so you said the rest of we're talking about this we were talking about the instructions earlier i'm working on my next course

right now which is knock out like how to knock people out how to build the power you know and there's a lot more aspects to it that i'm able that i have to tap into because i don't have the power um like a robbie law or you know where i could be like off balance and knocks someone out or like like Like Nico Price like hammer fisting guys and knocking them out or something like that's not the type of power I have. But I like I personally I credit more to, you know, find timing and the distance and using their own power against them, different things like that. But you do have one punch knockout power. You just use it in a different way. Like you have a different technique to it.

But you absolutely can one punch and you can put someone's lights out. We've seen you do it. can. There's a fact about that. But I guess what I'm saying, like Robbie Lawler could do it completely. You know, maybe not even Robbie.

There's a few guys. Like, yeah, whatever. We'll talk about it. And also, I mean, and also, just to be fair, like,

Derek Lewis is a heavyweight. Like, that is different. When you're generating 280 pounds swinging at a dude is different than 170 pounds. Like, that's just,

that's physics. Like, that's just he's going to generate more power swinging that big, you know, hunk of meat then, you know, and that's just, I mean, that's, that's why we always talk about heavyweight, like why it's so hard to stay champion there is because just one glancing blow

that lands incorrectly and you go fucking out. With a fucking four-ounce glove. Yeah, so, yeah. That's why I'm pretty proud of being, they still call myself the Knockout King, bro, because look, right behind me, he's Vitor Bellfort. It's like, I don't think he would even deny that he was juicing when he, knock these guys out, you know what I think? And then you got Derek Lewis, who was like, you know, a heavyweight, right?

So it's completely different, you know, at 170. So I'd say I'm actually prouder that I have the knockout record at 170 versus, you know, the entire UFC. No, I would agree. I think that's absolutely. And listen, if there's one, there's one thing, might be the only thing. I agree with Colby Covington from this past week. And when he said that welterweight is the toughest division, I think lightweight's very good. I think Bantamweight's incredible right now,

but I've always thought that Welterweight was underrated when it came to how good Welterweights were, and I still, to this day, chalk it up to George St. Pierre, because how dominant he was for so long, guys underneath him kind of got overshadowed because George was so good that we kind of lost track that, oh, yeah, John Fitch was really good, and Josh Kosteck was really good,

and Carlos Kondit was really good, and blah, blah, blah, but because George was champion, we kind of lost track of everybody. Pound for pound, top to bottom, I've always said Walter Waite, is one of the nastiest divisions in this sport. It's just a nasty. It's just, it's just incredibly tough to get in that division. And it doesn't get, I think I still to this day think part of the reason why it doesn't

get mentioned alongside lightweight as far as like the greatest, deepest division is just because of George. Because George was such a dominant champion for so long. Everyone's just like, oh, well, you know, he didn't have the great, no, dude. Tiago Alves, when he fought Tiago Alves, when he fought him years ago, UFC 100, Dude, Tiago looked like a brick house. Like, he literally looked like a brick house. Remember when he leg kicked Matt Hughes into oblivion,

just chopped him down like a fucking quarter wood? That was a, Teago Albus was a, was a, forgive my life. He was a motherfucker, man. That guy was a nasty, nasty dude. But George St. Pierre was George St. Pierre. Like, that was just the difference. Yeah. Yeah, George is one of the best ever, man.

So it was almost, you know, like light heavyweight was a better division than people make it out to be, but you had fucking John Jones. Yeah, like, how good is Daniel Cormier? Well, he was really good, but guess what? John Jones was also there, and that's the problem. Like, you know? Yeah, John Jones was better, you know? Yeah.

To work with John Jones, like, Daniel Cormier would probably be considered the greatest mixed martial artist in history, right? Like, because he would have, he probably could defend the title for about as long as he won. He probably could have done what John did. Oh, yeah. I have no doubts about it. Absolutely.

but John Jones is John Jones and that's Dan DeCormey always had the worst timing because he did in wrestling too because he was the guy and in his division was Cal Sanderson. You know like shit! It's like twice in his crew, he ran into oh yeah, Kel Sanderson's the other guy in your division

and John Jones is your other guy in your division in fighting like shit man like it's the worst luck, worst timing ever. Yeah, that's a good point. I never thought about that because yeah and he could and he performed well at heavyweight too. right so he could have been the greatest mixed martial artists of all the time

he had fucking john jones so yeah and cane velasquez that's why he that's why he left heavywake so he didn't want to have to run into cane right yeah even at 185 like anderson silver i mean you know he buzzed through a lot of guys that would have been great champions oh i mean look what he did to dan henderson dan henderson's one of the best ever and like that's just he just he ran into a Buzz saw when he fought Anderson. Like Anderson was just on another level at that point. You know, like, and Anderson made everyone look pedestrian.

Like, that's what Anderson did. That's what George did. Like, that's what they, when you're that good, when you're George or Anderson or John Jones, you can make extraordinary fighters look ordinary. Right, right. And or if you're John Jones, you can, yeah, they can look as good as you, and you still beat them because you didn't really try. Yeah, I mean, it's just John Jones.

Like I said, yeah, but that's what I get with Welterweight. Like, Welterweight is just as good as nasty of a division, if not nastier. But I think the George thing is what put people off on it for a long because he was so dominant. You know, I still believe that little bit of a shadow looms over that division. Why lightweight for the longest time, it's like always been that way. I think Welterweight gets more of that respect now. But I think Welterweight's been that way for years. Like for 15 years, the Welterweight division has been really good.

But, you know, George was there for six of them or whatever the time. timeline was and you know no one else really had a chance yeah was he only six years whatever it was i'm making that number of him just say whatever the number was like when he was there it's like yeah george was at the top and no one could beat him and that's just that was george st pierre like that's not an insult to welterweight that's just how good george st pierre was yeah i couldn't agree more all right so matt we're going to be off for the next two weeks we're taking some holiday time off It's coming up on our show actually runs on Tuesdays and Mondays, we usually record ahead of time, obviously,

and Christmas and New Year's both coming up on the weekends the next two weeks. So you and I are going to take a little time off. But when we come back, one of my favorite shows to do at the beginning of the year, the week of January 7th, I believe it is. We're going to go in and we're going to do our picks. We're going to go through every champion in the UFC. It's currently a champion in every division. And then we're going to see and we're going to debate on who is going to be

be champion at the end of 2024. So we're going to say John Jones is champion right now. And Tom Aspinall, who's going to be the champ at the end of 2024? Right now it's, who is Alex Pereira as the champion of light heavyweight? Who's going to be the champion of the end of the years? It's still going to be Alex. It's going to be somebody else. We're going to give our picks and see who actually, see who's right by the end of 2024.

So that'll be our next show in January. Matt, anywhere else people can check you out before we take our little brief hiatus here. you know I'm the immortal Instagram Twitter at the Immortal Coffee and everywhere

else bro I'm everywhere well check out also dynamic striking don't forget to check out dynamic striking yeah so we're talking about

instructional got to check that out as well obviously I want to say a big thank to everyone the tunes in each and every week make sure you check us

on all your favorite podcast platforms Apple podcast Spotify and of course over on the best website in the world mMAfighting.com we will be back in a couple weeks in the new year.

We're going to take a little holiday break too. The UFC's off for about a month. We're going to take a couple weeks off and enjoy some downtime with our families. I'm sure I'll talk to you off air, Matt, but obviously hope you have a good holiday with the kids and everything. Hopefully everyone gets a little break from school and get some good Christmas and presents. And I assume you're going to do like a Christmas sauna. Is that like the plan, do a Christmas sauna session?

Yeah, I'd do it all the time, so probably, yeah. I love it. All right, folks. our show for this. We'll be back in the new year with more Fighter versus Rider. Thanks so much for tuning in. We'll see you then.